Making tiers in Raids like fractals?
Thank you Absurdo for finding the quote.
It’s far more relevant and specific than just tinfoil ‘evidence’ with the faintest references to raiding and more strongly points to other issues.
Raiding as of right now is by far the most successful part of the expansion, the Music is probably the only other thing I can think of that has been a resounding success. The map alterations, HPs, Legendary Weapons, Story, all other things that have been changed or improved upon…they are more culpable in why HoT had issues.
Dismissing those issues and stating that Raiding is the sole cause is being insincere and foolish.
They gave people raids and don’t gave anyone anything else except some grindy maps. People want to play the game and they see…
1. Old fractals. For almost four years. With ONE new one, being a ragtag mix of old ones.
2. Old dungeons. With nerfed rewards just because.
3. Old pvp. Oh, no, actually less than old, because they removed soloQ, paid tournaments and almost whole hotjoin system. But hey, you cangrindplay seasons for a backpack.
4. Slightly updated WvW. Hey, 2 new maps over four years!
5. Open world maps. You can grind zerg events over and over again, yay!
6. Raids, great and shiny, with more exclusive items than pvp and wvw together. Oh, raids are slightly hard for you because small community and hard to start doing them without experience? Too bad, go to something previous.
So, only real new things to play are raids and open world grind maps. Both have serious problems if you don’t have a particular mindset, and judging by financial result, majority of players lack it.
And they are staying there, watching at “successful raids” and “new maps are here, why you are not happy” and all asking one question – “Where is my content, dude?”
So are you done blaming raids? Perhaps you should blame 1-5 on your list.
And they are staying there, watching at “successful raids” and “new maps are here, why you are not happy” and all asking one question – “Where is my content, dude?”
Whether that’s true or not has nothing to do if raids should be changed from niche-only content. A primary reason why they are able to release raids more quickly and with fewer people per ‘content’ is because it only has to be appeal to a narrow crowd.
It’s fair to criticize ANet’s inability to consistently deliver new/updated fractals, updated open world, and more Living Story. It’s fair to ask why we can’t have more skins. But none of that has anything to do with whether Raids are successful or whether they would be better with tiered difficulty.
There is an argument about whether ANet should develop niche content at all, but that’s not what this thread is about.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
And they are staying there, watching at “successful raids” and “new maps are here, why you are not happy” and all asking one question – “Where is my content, dude?”
Whether that’s true or not has nothing to do if raids should be changed from niche-only content. A primary reason why they are able to release raids more quickly and with fewer people per ‘content’ is because it only has to be appeal to a narrow crowd.
It’s fair to criticize ANet’s inability to consistently deliver new/updated fractals, updated open world, and more Living Story. It’s fair to ask why we can’t have more skins. But none of that has anything to do with whether Raids are successful or whether they would be better with tiered difficulty.
There is one problem though. Like you said, Anet’s capability to produce new skins is very much limited. If we add the fact that they are able to produce raid content fairly consistently (They have commented on this, I think they said 4-5 month/wing? not sure) we’ll get the recipe for disaster.
Let’s assume every boss in every raid has at least 2 unique Weapon/Armor piece. Also let’s count with 3 boss/wing. If we do the math with these numbers , we’ll get around 9-12 boss per year which means raids require around 20 new unique items every year just to keep it the way it is now. And this is the very lowest end of the requirement, since the average unique / boss encounter is now higher than 3.
Now the question remains, how does this effect the rest of the game? Let’s take a look for example at the year they released LS Season 2. As far as I can remember we got one weapon set with Dry Top and one Armor set with SW, and as far as I can remember nothing else PvE wise, maybe a few minor things.
Now let’s fast forward to 2016 , what can the players that do PvE but don’t like Raids earn through new content? So far 2 Back Pieces and 3 (?) Armor pieces, but we also got comments like “Don’t expect new armor sets with LS because armor sets are an expansion thing now”. (If I had to guess that’s because the armor department was busy making one armor set for more than one year), but the thing is, the only one that actually needs some time to spend to get is the two backpacks. If you look at the game in 2016 as a whole about 50% of the rewards are behind raids, and the year isn’t over.
Now if we compare 2014 with 2016 , everything major thing that was reward for PvE content in 2014 is now behind raids in 2016 ( New PvE armor set + weapon set) and the leftovers are for the rest of the non-raiders. It may be early to say this, since we are only two episodes in into season 3, but it is almost 100% we won’t get an armor set through living story and I don’t see anything else major we could work towards to.
In short , yes , the amount of skins we get in the non-raiding part of the game has a lot to do with raids. And to keep raids running , Arenanet has to put around half of the “Reward Dev Team” ’ s resources into them, excluding expansions.
And they are staying there, watching at “successful raids” and “new maps are here, why you are not happy” and all asking one question – “Where is my content, dude?”
Whether that’s true or not has nothing to do if raids should be changed from niche-only content. A primary reason why they are able to release raids more quickly and with fewer people per ‘content’ is because it only has to be appeal to a narrow crowd.
It’s fair to criticize ANet’s inability to consistently deliver new/updated fractals, updated open world, and more Living Story. It’s fair to ask why we can’t have more skins. But none of that has anything to do with whether Raids are successful or whether they would be better with tiered difficulty.
There is one problem though. Like you said, Anet’s capability to produce new skins is very much limited. …
… In short , yes , the amount of skins we get in the non-raiding part of the game has a lot to do with raids. And to keep raids running , Arenanet has to put around half of the “Reward Dev Team” ’ s resources into them, excluding expansions.
I don’t accept your assumptions in getting to the “50%” figure, but I can agree that ANet’s devoted more design resources to raids relative to the raid dev team’s size or the number of people who play it.
I’m alright with that, because they did the same thing with SAB (although obviously less so) and for the PvP backpack and so on. Niche content deserves rewards worth of the extra skill or effort, and “worthy rewards” take more than their share of resources.
What’s different about Raids versus say PvP or WvW or Fractal or any other reward in the game is that it’s more than just a skin. All niche rewards in the game offer different skins or, in the case of Fractals, higher chances for stuff you could make on your own. Raids are different in that they are the single source of legendary armor.
That would concern me more if I thought that the legendary tier was that big an advantage, outside the skin. Until/unless ANet solves the rune/sigil issue, they really aren’t that helpful in swapping builds. And most of the solutions I’ve seen proposed by the fans would mean that it will also be simpler to swap them for ascended.
In short, I’m okay that niche-worthy rewards get a worthy amount of design resources. I don’t think ANet made a smart choice to gate the legendary tier of armor behind niche content, but… I also don’t think it’s going to matter much in the long run.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.
In a “difficulty modes for raids” discussion, they are the same thing.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
I don’t accept your assumptions in getting to the “50%” figure, but I can agree that ANet’s devoted more design resources to raids relative to the raid dev team’s size or the number of people who play it.
You are free to disprove my calculations with your own, but until then I’m going to stick with mine. I’d also argue on your SAB argument, since no exlusive comes to my mind other than a backpack and different colored weapons , since 2 out of 4 weapon sets can be bought on the TP, therefore they are not exclusive at all.
Regarding PvP , WvW and fractals, here is the list of the exlusives in there which took Arenanet 4 years to impement all in all:
-Fractal Weapons
-Fractal back + Legendary Fractal back
-Glorious Armor
-The Ascension + Balthazar Back
-Triumphant Armor
-Legacy Armor
- Mistforged Weapons
Now let’s take a look at what raids got in the lifespan of 1 Year:
- Experimental Envoy Armor
- White Mantle Weapon Set
- A dozen boss specific unique , including weapons and back pieces.
1 year of raids versus 4 year of 3 other game mode. You could calculate how much exlusives raids will have in the same lifespan currently the other 3 game modes have if you want, then say 50% is not realistic.
1 year of raids versus 4 year of 3 other game mode. You could calculate how much exlusives raids will have in the same lifespan currently the other 3 game modes have if you want, then say 50% is not realistic.
Now count all the skins you got through the general PVE over the 3 years before HoT and compare those with PVP/WvW/Fractal exclusive skins over those same 3 years.
And then you can also do another search that includes all the gem store items over the same time span.
I don’t accept your assumptions in getting to the “50%” figure, but I can agree that ANet’s devoted more design resources to raids relative to the raid dev team’s size or the number of people who play it.
You are free to disprove my calculations with your own, but until then I’m going to stick with mine. I’d also argue on your SAB argument, since no exlusive comes to my mind other than a backpack and different colored weapons , since 2 out of 4 weapon sets can be bought on the TP, therefore they are not exclusive at all.
Regarding PvP , WvW and fractals, here is the list of the exlusives in there which took Arenanet 4 years to impement all in all:
-Fractal Weapons
-Fractal back + Legendary Fractal back
-Glorious Armor
-The Ascension + Balthazar Back
-Triumphant Armor
-Legacy Armor
- Mistforged WeaponsNow let’s take a look at what raids got in the lifespan of 1 Year:
- Experimental Envoy Armor
- White Mantle Weapon Set
- A dozen boss specific unique , including weapons and back pieces.1 year of raids versus 4 year of 3 other game mode. You could calculate how much exlusives raids will have in the same lifespan currently the other 3 game modes have if you want, then say 50% is not realistic.
And non Raid Pve in 1 year got.
Guild Armor 3 sets
Mistward Armor
Bladed Armor.
Ley line armor
Shimmering Weapons
Tennerberous Weapons
Chak Weapons
Auric Weapons
Reclaimed Weapons
Machined Weapons
Plated Weapons
9 class specific Armor Pieces
18 class specific Weapon Skins
5 Legendary Weapons (plus Precursor Skins)
Legendary Backpiece
Auric Backpiece
Luminates Backpiece
3 story backpieces
21 Unique Weapon Skins
There is probably more just the main ones off the top of my head
(edited by BlaqueFyre.5678)
I don’t accept your assumptions in getting to the “50%” figure, but I can agree that ANet’s devoted more design resources to raids relative to the raid dev team’s size or the number of people who play it.
You are free to disprove my calculations with your own, but until then I’m going to stick with mine. I’d also argue on your SAB argument, since no exlusive comes to my mind other than a backpack and different colored weapons , since 2 out of 4 weapon sets can be bought on the TP, therefore they are not exclusive at all.
Regarding PvP , WvW and fractals, here is the list of the exlusives in there which took Arenanet 4 years to impement all in all:
-Fractal Weapons
-Fractal back + Legendary Fractal back
-Glorious Armor
-The Ascension + Balthazar Back
-Triumphant Armor
-Legacy Armor
- Mistforged WeaponsNow let’s take a look at what raids got in the lifespan of 1 Year:
- Experimental Envoy Armor
- White Mantle Weapon Set
- A dozen boss specific unique , including weapons and back pieces.1 year of raids versus 4 year of 3 other game mode. You could calculate how much exlusives raids will have in the same lifespan currently the other 3 game modes have if you want, then say 50% is not realistic.
And non Raid Pve in 1 year got.
Guild Armor 3 sets
Mistward Armor
Bladed Armor.
Ley line armor
Shimmering Weapons
Tennerberous Weapons
Chak Weapons
Auric Weapons
Reclaimed Weapons
Machined Weapons
Plated Weapons
9 class specific Armor Pieces
18 class specific Weapon Skins
5 Legendary Weapons (plus Precursor Skins)
Legendary Backpiece
Auric Backpiece
Luminates Backpiece
3 story backpieces
21 Unique Weapon SkinsThere is probably more just the main ones off the top of my head
I also said excluding expansions, meaning the resources of the non-expansion half of Arenanet. That means 2016 & likely 2017
Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.
In a “difficulty modes for raids” discussion, they are the same thing.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of games that achieve this goal through tiered difficulty – and GW2 itself has systems in place that should be able to (again, only devs can say for sure) accomplish it without completely overhauling the content – challenge motes (which could just as easily be story or training motes), group size scaling (letting more than 10 people enter in a squad), the straight leveling system they use in fractals, etc.
Yes, anything they do will take some resources, but I – and others, obviously – believe it is something worth exploring.
Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.
In a “difficulty modes for raids” discussion, they are the same thing.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of games that achieve this goal through tiered difficulty – and GW2 itself has systems in place that should be able to (again, only devs can say for sure) accomplish it without completely overhauling the content – challenge motes (which could just as easily be story or training motes), group size scaling (letting more than 10 people enter in a squad), the straight leveling system they use in fractals, etc.
Yes, anything they do will take some resources, but I – and others, obviously – believe it is something worth exploring.
As even a GM pointed in two other topics, this thread is already beaten to death. So if you dont have nothing new to bring to the table, better stop reviving this topic before its locked as the others.
Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.
In a “difficulty modes for raids” discussion, they are the same thing.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of games that achieve this goal through tiered difficulty – and GW2 itself has systems in place that should be able to (again, only devs can say for sure) accomplish it without completely overhauling the content – challenge motes (which could just as easily be story or training motes), group size scaling (letting more than 10 people enter in a squad), the straight leveling system they use in fractals, etc.
Yes, anything they do will take some resources, but I – and others, obviously – believe it is something worth exploring.
As even a GM pointed in two other topics, this thread is already beaten to death. So if you dont have nothing new to bring to the table, better stop reviving this topic before its locked as the others.
They closed those threads – rightfully so – because they mirrored this one. Doesn’t mean the topic is dead – or that people shouldn’t continue to make their opinions and ideas heard on the subject. Otherwise, this thread would have been closed as well.
We simply need to stay on topic and discuss it in a level headed manner – when possible, providing real feedback and dialogue.
I don’t think the closure of the other two threads was meant to shut the conversation down – but rather to streamline It (at least, I hope that is the case). Yes we’ve been talking about this exact topic for a very long time (at least 18 months dating back to the CDI with Chris Whiteside), but that is just because it is something people find important/are passionate about (on multiple sides). That is exactly what the forums are here for.
If there is a topic that is of ongoing concern to a portion of the active playerbase, it is in the best interest of the community and the developers to keep that topic alive, even if it does get a little repetitive at times. People need to know there is a place where their voices are heard for as long as they feel there is a real issue, ESPECIALLY when that topic criticizes a direction the game/the developers are taking. Otherwise, they might as well shut the entire forum down.
And to get the conversation back on topic:
My post above is simply to point out that adding difficulty levels doesn’t have to be as complicated as adding completely new raid wings would be, as the person I was responding to implied – that there are ways to do it like those we have seen in other games – or by using the systems that already exist in GW2 that I cited above. That seems like a good conversation to have.
I would add to that – some of the absolute best conversations on this topic took place back in the original CDI with Whiteside, back before any of us even knew what raids would be in GW2. A lot of people had some really good feedback/ideas back then (that, unfortunately, did get drowned out by the same hate we see in many of these threads). I would love to see some of those conversations revived.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
I’m not sure what you want to discuss — this has been discussed to death, and your posts don’t add anything new.
We need to get the conversation back on track and stop with the continual efforts focused solely on closing it down.
There are several very good reasons this thread should remain open and this conversation should continue:
This is a reoccurring theme that will not go away
We see new threads started – across multiple forums – on this topic on a pretty consistent basis (by different people just about every time). That isn’t going to stop. Rather than have a conversation with dozens of starts and stops, there should be one place for all of the ideas.
The idea that this only matters to a small group is a myth
This conversation has been going on for more than 2 years now. Yes, now the push is coming almost exclusively from a small group of zealous players (like me) and people new to the raiding scene (the “I cant find a group posts” that keep popping up) and the backlash seems to be a little larger (I claim that is because this conversation is taking place in the raiding subforum where, naturally, there are more fans of the current system). But that wasn’t always the case. In the early days of this dialogue, there were a lot of people asking for something more. Look at the CDI for the best examples – The top 4-5 requests when people were asked what they wanted in raids were almost always centered around accessibility, scaling and making sure people weren’t left to the side because of how they play. Many of those people no longer post – most likely because they feel they lost the fight back then (a sentiment I don’t agree with).
Over time, many of those people were also worn down by the constant criticism and hate directed to them by a small group who refuse to see any need for change – but that doesn’t mean they aren’t still there (in fact, I know they are – I have talked to dozens in game). The sad reality is that it is very hard to post about this and have a real discussion because of the backlash from that small group of players rather than any lack of substance.
If anything, we probably lost a sizeable number of those players entirely based on the drought and being left out of the one thing Anet did release in that time frame.
Out of sight, out of mind
Again, this is a topic that matters. Over time, the conversation has dwindled (for the reasons I state above), but it still matters. Even if the developers choose to never change the raiding model, they need the constant reminder that there is a group of players out there who remain unhappy with the current content model.
There may be new ideas we haven’t heard yet
This one is pretty self explanatory. When new ideas arise, they need to be viewed in context with the larger conversation – not just with people like me, but with people on the other side of the argument as well. That is what helps the community foster new ideas.
If it were up to me, all of the threads on this topic would be merged – and then stickied. This conversation is obviously important to people long term.
Now, with that said, PLEASE refrain from simply trying to shut down the conversation and let’s get back to having it.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
We need to get the conversation back on track and stop with the continual efforts focused solely on closing it down.
There are several very good reasons this thread should remain open and this conversation should continue:
This is a reoccurring theme that will not go away
We see new threads started – across multiple forums – on this topic on a pretty consistent basis (by different people just about every time). That isn’t going to stop. Rather than have a conversation with dozens of starts and stops, there should be one place for all of the ideas.The idea that this only matters to a small group is a myth
This conversation has been going on for more than 2 years now. Yes, now the push is coming almost exclusively from a small group of zealous players (like me) and people new to the raiding scene (the “I cant find a group posts” that keep popping up) and the backlash seems to be a little larger (I claim that is because this conversation is taking place in the raiding subforum where, naturally, there are more fans of the current system). But that wasn’t always the case. In the early days of this dialogue, there were a lot of people asking for something more. Look at the CDI for the best examples – The top 4-5 requests when people were asked what they wanted in raids were almost always centered around accessibility, scaling and making sure people weren’t left to the side because of how they play. Many of those people no longer post – most likely because they feel they lost the fight back then (a sentiment I don’t agree with).Over time, many of those people were also worn down by the constant criticism and hate directed to them by a small group who refuse to see any need for change – but that doesn’t mean they aren’t still there (in fact, I know they are – I have talked to dozens in game). The sad reality is that it is very hard to post about this and have a real discussion because of the backlash from that small group of players rather than any lack of substance.
If anything, we probably lost a sizeable number of those players entirely based on the drought and being left out of the one thing Anet did release in that time frame.
Out of sight, out of mind
Again, this is a topic that matters. Over time, the conversation has dwindled (for the reasons I state above), but it still matters. Even if the developers choose to never change the raiding model, they need the constant reminder that there is a group of players out there who remain unhappy with the current content model.There may be new ideas we haven’t heard yet
This one is pretty self explanatory. When new ideas arise, they need to be viewed in context with the larger conversation – not just with people like me, but with people on the other side of the argument as well. That is what helps the community foster new ideas.If it were up to me, all of the threads on this topic would be merged – and then stickied. This conversation is obviously important to people long term.
Now, with that said, PLEASE refrain from simply trying to shut down the conversation and let’s get back to having it.
Use your own advice..you own posts add nothing to the subject since a long time, you’re just saying over and over the same thing, without new idea. So please restrain yourself for posting if you have nothing more to add.
Use your own advice..you own posts add nothing to the subject since a long time, you’re just saying over and over the same thing, without new idea. So please restrain yourself for posting if you have nothing more to add.
I think that is a fair request -
so let’s all agree to stop with the back and forth about keeping the thread open or closing it and get back to the topic at hand.
A few posts ago, I talked about several ways Anet could incorporate multiple tiers into the raiding model. One of those was a simple “story mote” similar to the challenge motes we see in living story steps.
If all that mote did was reduce the math of an encounter – lowering health, damage, etc – while also lowering reward (a critical piece), that would be enough to make the raids more accessible to a greater range of players.
Because, let’s be real for a second – true balance in PVE is a pipe dream. The professions in this game are just too complex. The only way every profession becomes equally viable would be to oversimplify them all – something none of us want. At the same time, that hammer scrapper or d/d thief or scepter guardian should have a way to enjoy raids without having to completely compromise how they play (enjoy) the game. Waiting for PVE balance to make all of these professions feel usable is not a real option (they may be viable – but in reality, they will always reduce a groups chances of success).
The answer has to come from the content development side – and I, for one, don’t want the challenge nerfed to accommodate those classes. That leaves multiple difficulty tiers as the ONLY answer.
Now, I know people disagree with that. Let’s talk about why we disagree – even if it feels a little repetitive based on past conversations. It is still a concern for people (me included). If you don’t want to have that conversation, that’s also fine – you don’t have to (but saying others cannot/should not have the discussion really isn’t a solution).
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
You have suggested this several months ago. Saying this is a new conversation is disingenuous.
We’ve already “discussed” all the competing interests here:
1. A mode to tell the story
2. A mode to train
3. A mode as an alternative to get the rewards
4. A mode that offers easier content
Not all these interests align, but this has been discussed to death.
I’ll address the one new rationale in your post: class diversity:
1. Other game modes, like WvW and PvP, also have metas and class/build exclusion. You can’t “play how you want” and be successful.
2. You can play trash builds if you want in raids, but that doesn’t mean other players need to play with you. It’s fair for your teammates to ask you to contribute to success.
Plus, I’m unsure why trash builds need to work in raids? They work fine in the content it’s meant for.
Finally, I use the phrase trash builds, because several groups will take sub par but close to meta. Scepter guard is even one of the guard meta builds.
I think i saw this before. over time it all boils down that those who want different difficulty levels also want the rewards i.e. want the progression towards the legendary armor with less effort. Why do you want a niche content for a wider range of players? It is supposed to be hard content.
How will different diffuclty levels address issues such as exclusion or players in general don’t want to take the lead in other words taking responsibility? How will those different levels make it easier to get into raids? Somebody has to tag up and organize those groups of 10 players.
If you want something like fractals, play fractals o_O