Guild Wars 2

Recently I’ve been seeing a lot of these crop up in addition to the usual “zerkers only” “heavies only”, “no necros” and “no rangers or necros” requirements. I’m interested in various opinions on this. In particular, is this actually a useful metric? Like, will it actually result in a better success rate and save time despite shrinking the pool of players available to you?

Personally, I don’t have 5k+ AP so I don’t jump into those groups but I also don’t particularly anticipate myself being remarkably better at the game when I inevitably reach 5k (and magically qualify for my first dungeon run). Just like I’m not exactly in a different league to back when I had 3k, at least in dungeons. This makes sense, since completing dungeons doesn’t directly give you any AP, AFAIK, beyond the first time you do them all.

It’s the worse requirement of all. I always have troubles with those groups: they can’t play. What this requirement means is “you must have played enough LS to play with us”. Now, do you actually need to play LS to be good at dungeons? I don’t think so.

I remember, regarding AP, that in June/July, the first guy ever to get 250k kills in WvW was a guy with barely 2k AP, and he was part of the (probably) best WvW guild in GW2. So there are absolutely no relation between being able to play and AP.

Same for PvPers. They don’t have a lot of AP yet they are very good at playing PvP.

AP is just a short for “Living Story involvement”.

People who ask for AP are most likely trash players since it’s no way to determine whether a player is skilled or not. Someone in guild earlier today mentioned they had a 15k AP elementalist in their AC pug and they didn’t know what fiery greatsword was.

I’ve also played with a 7k AP rifle warrior.

To be honest, I’ve given up trying to find good pugs, nowadays I just purposely try to make the worst Arah pug groups possible so I can just carry through all of the fights.

The AP is a weird one. I understand being wary of a person with less than 1k, but I think the 5k requirements are a bit steep. The idea behind it is that people want to make sure they get players who know what they’re doing. AP is what they use to gauge that, despite it being a very bad gauge.

The class and build requirement though, that’s understandable to me.

They just hope to not have a wipe fest. If you do not put requirements in your lfg this is what you get :

Lvl 80 380ap
Lvl 65 600ap
Lvl 22 145ap

And it is all their first time.

Example pulled out of my kitten but based on actual experience.

Most of the 12k+ AP guards I played with were cleric staff guards. Doesn’t this say all?

Lilith Ajit.6173:

The AP is a weird one. I understand being wary of a person with less than 1k, but I think the 5k requirements are a bit steep. The idea behind it is that people want to make sure they get players who know what they’re doing. AP is what they use to gauge that, despite it being a very bad gauge.

The class and build requirement though, that’s understandable to me.

Most class requirements are “lf zerk wars” despite the people making the party having absolutely no idea why warriors are worth taking. Or “lf guard” for fractals, and then they just camp mace/shield, never use wall and do nothing for the entire run.

If you wanted an actual filter for bad pugs you’d ask them to ping their trait spread (e.g. 30/10/10/10/10 or something like that) – that says a lot more about their skill than anything else.

hendo.1940:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

The AP is a weird one. I understand being wary of a person with less than 1k, but I think the 5k requirements are a bit steep. The idea behind it is that people want to make sure they get players who know what they’re doing. AP is what they use to gauge that, despite it being a very bad gauge.

The class and build requirement though, that’s understandable to me.

Most class requirements are “lf zerk wars” despite the people making the party having absolutely no idea why warriors are worth taking. Or “lf guard” for fractals, and then they just camp mace/shield, never use wall and do nothing for the entire run.

If you wanted an actual filter for bad pugs you’d ask them to ping their trait spread (e.g. 30/10/10/10/10 or something like that) – that says a lot more about their skill than anything else.

Sure. No arguments there. But I’m just saying, like, “no necromancer, ranger etc” makes sense to me.

I only advertise parties with fashion requirements.

For each “requirement” there is a proper response, some quite long, i will attain to the AP one.
To me the AP requirement is the most flawed. I got plenty of 5k++ people under performing on my PuGs (especially CM, got a staff guardian with 11K that got lost on the mansion after i soloed first part with thief). As you already said, u don’t get that much AP from dungeons, so it´s end up getting WvW or sPVP people trying to run dungeons on their PVP builds and trying to give order, that in most part, are quite far from the expected.

Don’t join these groups, i joined a 6k ap group and met a cleric mace guardian for cof p1.

There is a very loose correlation between AP and experience. There is no correlation between AP and skill. I avoid these groups like the plague.

Everything above ~1k AP is useless and tells you nothing about a players experience (this is a spitballed number for the point in time that you have played enough on a certain character to learn its skills and traits and gain some handle on how the game is played). Basically all that an AP check shows is if it is quite low they are very new to the game and will need a lot of help, but again past 1k you have no idea if the person is skilled or not, but typically the higher the points above 5k the worse they are. In fact, the people who I prefer to run with are between 3-6k currently, while a bunch of people I try and avoid doing dungeons with are 11k+.

Sadly, there is no easy way to show how experience someone as something. In GW1 there were certain titles you could display to show skill, but in GW2 not so much (even DM is pointless). The best would be if there were title attributed to the total number of tokens you have earned running a certain dungeon. I.e. for AC you could have a title scheme of:

1. 1k tokens – Catacombs Dweller
2. 2.5k tokens – Catacombs Explorer
3. 5k tokens – Catacombs Adept
4. 10k tokens – Catacombs Master
5. 25k tokens – King Adelbern Pays Me Rent

As such, if you wanted a good speed clear group you could post “LFG AC all paths, 80+, Display Catacombs Master”

Farming daily achievements and doing living story makes you good at dungeons. Like, so very good.

Last night I trialed an Ele with 900 AP for the guild. I was skeptical due to her incredibly low AP, but she was in meta and had TeamSpeak, so I gave it a go. For her trial, we did a full dungeon tour of 16 paths with optimal roles for each dungeon path (everyone except the trial relogged another class at least once). We finished the tour in under 4 hours. She did very well.

At one point I asked her “You’ve only got 900 AP, but you play better than most 6k+ AP players I trial. Why’s that?” Turns out she read multiple meta guides and watched multiple speed-run vids before even entering a dungeon. That there is why AP doesn’t mean a kitten thing; it’s intelligence and preparation that matter.

AP is a terrible way to gauge players, especially for things like dungeons. The only thing AP truly quantifies is the players ability to earn achievement points. If I see a player with a low AP score I assume they are new but I don’t assume they are bad. I’ll ask them if they’ve done the path before, if they don’t answer that’s a red flag.

Gating players based on AP especially 5K is pretty weak.

joey the creator.3587:

Don’t join these groups, i joined a 6k ap group and met a cleric mace guardian for cof p1.

It’s clear the host was requesting 6k AP because they wanted to be carried.

Under 2k is a minor red flag. People who ask for AP are mostly bad. Not all. Some actually believe it helps. I’ve also seen that some ask for AP but then also for gearcheck or “melee lupi” or whatever. That’s kinda stupid. Gearcheck isn’t what it used to be. Had 2 warriors in fractals that I remember. Pink armor but with ruby orbs(why?!). One used hammer..legendary but still hammer. The other didn’t wore the armor he pinged(different skins).

Lilith Ajit.6173:

The AP is a weird one. I understand being wary of a person with less than 1k, but I think the 5k requirements are a bit steep.

This is basically how I feel here.

robertul.3679:

The other didn’t wore the armor he pinged(different skins).

I love that. You think we won’t notice you pinged a full set of CoE zerk/scholar and are wearing a Phalanx set that’s prolly soldier?

I find it funny how the one time I decided to join a pug that had an AP requirement, they all wiped. All of them. Repeatedly. It was only CoF P2.

At any rate, AP doesn’t mean much. Just avoid those groups like the plague.

Tbh when I see lfgs that require AP I post one for the same path that says something along the lines of “Who cares about AP!” even if I’ve already run whatever path it is that the AP elitists are doing.

Asami.3572:

Tbh when I see lfgs that require AP I post one for the same path that says something along the lines of “Who cares about AP!” even if I’ve already run whatever path it is that the AP elitists are doing.

That’s the kind of spiteful dedication I can appreciate.

I am an achievement hunter, but there are only about six paths I run regularly so my AP far exceeds by dungeon running skills outside those paths. At 5k AP my guardian was still running around with staff and Melandru armour, but I’ve seen players with 2k AP shred dungeons. There is a correlation between AP and the ability to run a dungeon, but past 2,000 that correlation is very slight.

Lucey.1452:

The best would be if there were title attributed to the total number of tokens you have earned running a certain dungeon. I.e. for AC you could have a title scheme of:

1. 1k tokens – Catacombs Dweller
2. 2.5k tokens – Catacombs Explorer
3. 5k tokens – Catacombs Adept
4. 10k tokens – Catacombs Master
5. 25k tokens – King Adelbern Pays Me Rent

OMG the 5. <3 100% would use XD

Well yesterday I pugged AC, 2 guys asking for zerk only + 4k AP joined the LFG I put with my 2nd account, that have 1.7k, and I didn’t have any problem, but well I was with a friend. Was decent for P1, P3 was ok till the last boss, then it went just so bad -.- Didn’t even bother to do P2.

Lucey.1452:

[…] In GW1 there were certain titles you could display to show skill, but in GW2 not so much (even DM is pointless). The best would be if there were title attributed to the total number of tokens you have earned running a certain dungeon. I.e. for AC you could have a title scheme of:

1. 1k tokens – Catacombs Dweller
2. 2.5k tokens – Catacombs Explorer
3. 5k tokens – Catacombs Adept
4. 10k tokens – Catacombs Master
5. 25k tokens – King Adelbern Pays Me Rent

As such, if you wanted a good speed clear group you could post “LFG AC all paths, 80+, Display Catacombs Master”

I like that idea, although it could lead to unknown levels of elitism. But then again, it is much better than AP requirements.

Btw, as bad as an AP filter might be, for high level fractals pugging my experience is that it is rather helpful.

Lucey.1452:

(…)

1. 1k tokens – Catacombs Dweller
2. 2.5k tokens – Catacombs Explorer
3. 5k tokens – Catacombs Adept
4. 10k tokens – Catacombs Master
5. 25k tokens – King Adelbern Pays Me Rent

6. 50k tokens – Ghostbuster

That’d be me.

AP is really a horrible metric ever since they introduced AP rewards & leaderboards and made AP farming possible through LS.

Before that it was somewhat reliable specially during the gw2lfg days.

I really wish they’d just add an inspect gear/traits option to party mates >.>

If i saw a group like this i would join it in a heartbeat. Not saying AP determine skill but the most terrible players I’ve seen had less than 3k. There are however better ways to find out if they are experienced players but that include playing with them for a couple of minutes.

PS: I’M NOT ELITIST AND I DON’T ASK FOR AP!

Why check for AP when you can just judge by seeing what weapons and utilities they have equipped when they first join the group.

Izaya.2906:

I really wish they’d just add an inspect gear/traits option to party mates >.>

so you want to make gw2 a wow? no. gearcheck is bad.
as for AP…ye, this got nothing to do with skills you. can expect anyone at 2k+ should know how their toon works.
but seeing 10k+ guardian joining party with staff (especially if its ascended/ legendary or some expensive skin) on their back…you know that there is at least 1 person to carry over whole run.
the titles idea is great…but ppl already buy arah (and i got no idea why AC) for tokens, some would buy them for titles as well..

My LFG doesn’t require AP, but whenever a sub-3k enters our fractal group, I’m always skeptical and can’t help being a kitten like this…

“Are you sure that you have 70+ AR?”
“70+ AR on multiple weapon sets?”
“Surely 70+ AR?”
“70+ AR?”
?!!!
…

Is it safe to assume the 1k+ AP folks don’t have that amount of AR? Just askin’.

Mmm it depends I think. Since fractals don’t give all that much AP, it’s a tough situation. If it’s an alt account I can see it. 70 AR …. I don’t even have that. Guess I’d be embarrassed if a person who just started playing had 70AR.

Earlier I joined “zerks only 5k AP+” lfg just for fun. What do you know, the poster was a war with 5,1xx AP. Probably would have been better to rename the post to “lfm who have more ap and are better than me. I wanna be carried”. Once party filled up we ended up with 4 warriors. Looked promising so I decided to stay even though I have completed the path that day already. I check the party and oh my, only one warrior was running full zerk and a proper build.

In the end, I came to a conclusion that even a 3 man guild party will clear that path in less time.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Mmm it depends I think. Since fractals don’t give all that much AP, it’s a tough situation. If it’s an alt account I can see it. 70 AR …. I don’t even have that. Guess I’d be embarrassed if a person who just started playing had 70AR.

She’s referring to level 50 fractals.

I figured, because why else?

99% of the time (exaggerated, but you’ll get the picture) I find that high AP usually equates to “soccermom casual that uses dolyak signet and rifle” or “guardian that camps staff and uses reflect wall during volcanic fractal final encounter BEFORE the adds appear” or “thief using p/p” etc.

I got a 10k+ AP guard who joined at the Fire Shaman boss (fractal level 50), camped staff all the time and ran around like a headless chicken during the bubble phase. Needless to say, we kicked him upon a wipe. I was hopeful that the guard would aa the bubbled boss instead of the kitten lava elementals, but that is too much to ask?!

P.S. Later on, another 9k+AP guard joined and got killed by the agony instability had to re-roll into his warrior huehuehue….

Lucey.1452:

Everything above ~1k AP is useless and tells you nothing about a players experience (this is a spitballed number for the point in time that you have played enough on a certain character to learn its skills and traits and gain some handle on how the game is played). Basically all that an AP check shows is if it is quite low they are very new to the game and will need a lot of help, but again past 1k you have no idea if the person is skilled or not, but typically the higher the points above 5k the worse they are. In fact, the people who I prefer to run with are between 3-6k currently, while a bunch of people I try and avoid doing dungeons with are 11k+.

Sadly, there is no easy way to show how experience someone as something. In GW1 there were certain titles you could display to show skill, but in GW2 not so much (even DM is pointless). The best would be if there were title attributed to the total number of tokens you have earned running a certain dungeon. I.e. for AC you could have a title scheme of:

1. 1k tokens – Catacombs Dweller
2. 2.5k tokens – Catacombs Explorer
3. 5k tokens – Catacombs Adept
4. 10k tokens – Catacombs Master
5. 25k tokens – King Adelbern Pays Me Rent

As such, if you wanted a good speed clear group you could post “LFG AC all paths, 80+, Display Catacombs Master”

The base idea is not bad, since Dungeon master is pointless and don’t show how experienced you are with a particular dungeon / path, however it won’t solve the problem that you can earn this if you get carried.
Something similar that happened in the Aether path would be better. Make some personal and non-personal achievements (the later should be a bit easier tbh) and slap a “kill the [end boss] X times” onto it to ensure the player has at least some experience with that path. After all path is done, you got a title. Done.

Speeking as that 900 ap ele (up to 1k now) – I will say its very hard to play at 80 for long before hitting 1k AP. I can definitely understand people being weary of pugs under 1k ap. After hitting 80 with around 750 ap, I was insta-kicked from a number of explorable dungeon groups with non-descript LFG post which is why I started looking for a guild to run with.

The game has been out for nearly a year and a half now. If you use your brain and figure out who to listen too, there are plenty of thorough guides that will help you know what to do before you even set foot in the dungeon. Obviously I’m not perfect yet – i have a lot of polishing to do and it will take me a while to adjust to trusting my party in speed runs after some of the god awful pugs I’ve been in. But from my limited experience, I think pinging gear and quizzing about spec is a much better way to judge the type of player you’re dealing with.

Gear Score was a cancer in WoW. Guess what role AP’s fill.

Iris Ng.9845:

I got a 10k+ AP guard who joined at the Fire Shaman boss (fractal level 50), camped staff all the time and ran around like a headless chicken during the bubble phase. Needless to say, we kicked him upon a wipe. I was hopeful that the guard would aa the bubbled boss instead of the kitten lava elementals, but that is too much to ask?!

P.S. Later on, another 9k+AP guard joined and got killed by the agony instability had to re-roll into his warrior huehuehue….

Hey now! Low AR usually isn’t an issue, but I forgot about the agony instability… I’m finding warrior more fun there anyway.

I feel sorry for that poor guardian you griefed to put me in!

laharl.8435:

Iris Ng.9845:

I got a 10k+ AP guard who joined at the Fire Shaman boss (fractal level 50), camped staff all the time and ran around like a headless chicken during the bubble phase. Needless to say, we kicked him upon a wipe. I was hopeful that the guard would aa the bubbled boss instead of the kitten lava elementals, but that is too much to ask?!

P.S. Later on, another 9k+AP guard joined and got killed by the agony instability had to re-roll into his warrior huehuehue….

Hey now! Low AR usually isn’t an issue, but I forgot about the agony instability… I’m finding warrior more fun there anyway.

Yeah, I forgot about it too. I even told my friends that ‘dw, he’ll make it’…

hendo.1940:

People who ask for AP are most likely trash players since it’s no way to determine whether a player is skilled or not. Someone in guild earlier today mentioned they had a 15k AP elementalist in their AC pug and they didn’t know what fiery greatsword was.

I’ve also played with a 7k AP rifle warrior.

To be honest, I’ve given up trying to find good pugs, nowadays I just purposely try to make the worst Arah pug groups possible so I can just carry through all of the fights.

Just to snip this out

Zerker Rifle Warrior is a great build and is really fun to play

There isn’t a direct correlation between AP and dungeon experience.

But I think it’s obvious “the average” people with 5k AP are probably better dungeon runner than “the average” people with 2k AP.

And people with an extraordinary amount of AP are AP farmers. So that dont’ necessary mean they are good in dungeon..

Flame Of The Titan.3649:

hendo.1940:

People who ask for AP are most likely trash players since it’s no way to determine whether a player is skilled or not. Someone in guild earlier today mentioned they had a 15k AP elementalist in their AC pug and they didn’t know what fiery greatsword was.

I’ve also played with a 7k AP rifle warrior.

To be honest, I’ve given up trying to find good pugs, nowadays I just purposely try to make the worst Arah pug groups possible so I can just carry through all of the fights.

Just to snip this out

Zerker Rifle Warrior is a great build and is really fun to play

you’re gonna get a whole lot of “nope” for that, prepare yourself~

Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope…. Not in my watch. Ever.

Iris Ng.9845:

Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope…. Not in my watch. Ever.

that was about the level of nope I was expecting

everybody seems to agree what a terrible measure AP are, but what are the alternatives?
ping gear / traits: sure.. 90% of joiners won’t do it, it takes forever to get a full group
titles: as useless as ap
just write speedrun/metabuilds without checking: you will get 2-4 leechers who hope to get carried (worst in AC and CoE in my experience)
no rangers/necros/engies: from forumposts generally a good way to deter decent pug-players because they don’t like hate on classes

yes, AP is terrible, but it’s still the easiest measure as it doesn’t need cooperation from the joiners (you can see it, unlike gear, because gear-inspect would be the end of the world and all that is good, according to some people), it’s a very clear and precise measurement – no ‘my meta build adaptation is better than yours’.

currently AP is as close to /age as we can get without asking. longer gameplay means more experience. if they never did anything outside open world it won’t mean much, but chances are, they’ve done some dungeons at least, unlike <1k players.

instead of bashing those who ask for AP (btw, I never did and don’t intend to), make a fuss and ask for gear/trait inspect. it’s about time serious dungeon (pug)-runners get some QoL stuff.

Best solution that i found to replace the AP metter, is to ask at the begining of the run, or see what they do in the first 5 mins. Usualy when met with silence and/or they do dumb stuff i know it will be a looong and anoying run, but hell beats AP cecks.

PS: Had better runs with people with <2k ap that with 4k+ ap