Guild Wars 2

I Kind of don’t get where you keep trying to go with that?
It’s a horizontal progression game, it all needs to be working.

How does it make cc useless? It actually promotes cc since your cc will affect more than 1 mob.

He doesn’t realize how much we can depend on mace 5, or blinds, even immobilize sometimes (arah tar ele), interrupt, fear, area of denial like ring of warding (ooze in thaumanova for eg) etc.

He either 1/ spends all his time in AC 2/ spent too much time watching speedrun videos without understanding how they even work.

And if you were to really enforce a game of headless chicken running around rather than grouped close together you would end up with something that promotes even less mechanics, because boon range is very limited as is most form of support so all these headless chicken asking for healbot builds are going to have a tough time healing anyone in a group that runs around at max range randomly pressing buttons and running in circles. For fun and trolling purpose I ran cleric guard a bit in random playasyouwant pugs, your heals won’t even reach the vast majority of these perma-ranged-weapons users. That’s just how useless the whole concept of a healbot is.

OP, I totally support u and like the way u run dungeons – I do it in the same way. Doing it the non-stacking, non skipping way makes it a great, almost Indiana Jones like adventure with lots of fun! Using TS on top of that adds to the fun!!!

Nikaido.3457:

He doesn’t realize how much we can depend on mace 5, or blinds, even immobilize sometimes (arah tar ele), interrupt, fear, area of denial like ring of warding (ooze in thaumanova for eg) etc.

He either 1/ spends all his time in AC 2/ spent too much time watching speedrun videos without understanding how they even work.

Or 3. CC isn’t really useful when stacking. Immobilize, cripple, chill when stacking? What a laugh.

Try to stack on certain fractal bosses without those. Good luck.

Nikaido.3457:

I ran cleric guard a bit in random playasyouwant pugs, your heals won’t even reach the vast majority of these perma-ranged-weapons users. That’s just how useless the whole concept of a healbot is.

This. I deviated from my Dps Guardian and trialed a cleric.
In groups where heals would be useful everyone was too spread out for the heals to be effective. It was very useful if a) group is taking lots of damage and b) are stacked up. Paradoxically healers are more useful in groups who don’t need them. This is one of the reasons for lack of diversity.

runeblade.7514:

Nikaido.3457:

He doesn’t realize how much we can depend on mace 5, or blinds, even immobilize sometimes (arah tar ele), interrupt, fear, area of denial like ring of warding (ooze in thaumanova for eg) etc.

He either 1/ spends all his time in AC 2/ spent too much time watching speedrun videos without understanding how they even work.

Or 3. CC isn’t really useful when stacking. Immobilize, cripple, chill when stacking? What a laugh.

LOL CC SUCKS VS BOSSES

LOL CC SUCKS VS BOSSES #2

LOL CHILL AND CRIPPLE SUCK VS BOSSES

Yesterday, I saved my entire team by interrupting lupi’s aoe in phase 2.

haviz.1340:

Yesterday, I saved my entire team by reflecting lupi’s aoe in phase 2.

People don’t actually interrupt that AoE, do they? What an unforgivable loss of reflect dmg

Nikaido.3457:

He doesn’t realize how much we can depend on mace 5, or blinds, even immobilize sometimes (arah tar ele), interrupt, fear, area of denial like ring of warding (ooze in thaumanova for eg) etc.

He either 1/ spends all his time in AC 2/ spent too much time watching speedrun videos without understanding how they even work.

And if you were to really enforce a game of headless chicken running around rather than grouped close together you would end up with something that promotes even less mechanics, because boon range is very limited as is most form of support so all these headless chicken asking for healbot builds are going to have a tough time healing anyone in a group that runs around at max range randomly pressing buttons and running in circles. For fun and trolling purpose I ran cleric guard a bit in random playasyouwant pugs, your heals won’t even reach the vast majority of these perma-ranged-weapons users. That’s just how useless the whole concept of a healbot is.

Very well written!

Anierna.6918:

People don’t actually interrupt that AoE, do they? What an unforgivable loss of reflect dmg

I don’t use mesploits.

Ahh, I see the hang-up.
I think you’re not quite understanding what people feel they’re missing out on when they complain about support and control.

They don’t just want to use these mechanics, they want to make interesting choices when they’re building their characters and re-contextualize the same combat experience from a different perspective by giving themselves a different goal.

Berserker gear and power trait-lines being able to handle all the defensive support and control the game requires doesn’t make for interesting character building choices. Being able to toss out a lazy Blind here and there is paying shallow lipservice to what having a role in combat actually means.

Given how much confusion people seem to have about this, I think you can only really understand what this game is missing and how tragic that is, if you’ve seen what this system is like when it’s working.

Play a game that has Soft Roles.
Where everybody is naturally part DPS and the win condition of the game is aggressive, but they still have different Roles. May I recommend League of Legends or Team Fortress 2? They’re both Free to Play, and they’re on record in PR statements as being Arenanet’s direct influences, so you know that’s what they’re trying to shoot for.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Ahh, I see the hang-up.
I think you’re not quite understanding what people feel they’re missing out on when they complain about support and control.

They don’t just want to use these mechanics, they want to make interesting choices when they’re building their characters and re-contextualize the same combat experience from a different perspective by giving themselves a different goal.

I see where you (and they) are making the big mistake. You see, some people (you, them) mistakenly believe that gear prefix has some link to playstyle, and is relevant in character building to define playstyle; it does not.

Playstyle is determined primarily by weapon and utility skills, secondarily by traits and only tangentially by gear.

Gear, in Guild Wars 2, is simply a reflection on where the player falls on a spectrum of anticipated damage received for the particular game type. If you feel you will be able to avoid (or sustain through) significant damage you can run gear that has additional DPS in lieu of additional defense. This is common among experienced PvE’ers. In WvW zergs, by contrast, there is large amounts of unavoidable damage, so a tougher gearset is desirable.

This is the system as the game exists. Skills + Traits = playstyle. Gear = linear range between defense and offense.

The folks you’re describing want a totally different game, where your gear informs your playstyle as much as skills and traits do. Unfortunately, that is not this game. If you want to radically redesign the character build process to help support your character building roleplay considerations (for that is what you’re describing) I think it would honestly be easier to go play a different game that is more conducive to gear helping you better roleplay in fantasy land with your dolly dress up.

I fundamentally can’t agree with an argument that tries to write off having a discussion at all because ’that’s the way it is’. It’s a game, not a mountain. If something isn’t working, you fix it.

We already know the devs don’t share that fatalistic viewpoint, or they wouldn’t have told us they’re trying to fix the DPS meta.

I try to describe the game as it is in reality, not as it might be, or as it would be if amateur game designers were in charge.

I don’t have a “fatalistic” view point, because that would imply I was unhappy with the state of the game. I am quite satisfied with the character building process in GW2, so contrary to your point, any radical change would almost certainly be for the worse.

Lastly, I don’t relate to roleplayers. I just don’t. And unfortunately you aren’t going to find too many members of this subcommunity who do.

Look at it from my perspective for a bit: you are asking me to support a radical change (which is likely to be for the worse, for me) in order to placate the desires of roleplayers who want to be more immersed in their character building process. When you look at it from that perspective, you see how ridiculous it is, right? Potentially ruining a skill-based game we like so carebears can go on imaginary adventures more easily?

Sorry, no.

I’m not asking you to support anything.
How things operate now has been identified as a problem to which devs announce they’re seeking a solution. All that’s left to discuss at this stage is how, not if.

Nobody’s saying you have to be on-board with this, but you kinda’ don’t have much to contribute to the discussion if you’re not.

Just to clarify some terminology;
‘Roleplaying’ is about /emotes and being ‘in character’.
‘Playing a Game with Roles’ is about meaningful mechanical differences that impact your gameplay like Medic, Jungle or Tank.

I don’t know if maybe you GW1 folk might be using some strange variant of the slang, but if you come from any other game background you know these are two different things.

If you’re conflating these terms because they sound similar and you don’t know the difference because you’ve never had the pleasure of playing a game with roles; then allow to redouble my recommendation for playing LoL and TF2.

Right, and this game isn’t about playing defined roles. DPS, Support and Control all handled by every member of the party.

Maybe YOU are advocating making the game more like LoL or TF2 (why you couldnt just go play those? I dunno) but go and read all those “nerf zerker” threads. Most of the know-nothings posting in there were not talking about playing a game with roles, they were talking about roleplaying. They were saying things that were clearly RP based like, “I want to play a healer!” or “I don’t want to do dps I want to do Support!”

They clearly do not want to play the game Anet designed, they want to play some classic trinity game and it’s painfully obvious.

Vox Hollow.2736:

How things operate now has been identified as a problem to which devs announce they’re seeking a solution. All that’s left to discuss at this stage is how, not if.

Can you source this? (So we can see if it exists, and if it does, to what extent you’re twisting the truth about it)

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Right, and this game isn’t about playing defined roles. DPS, Support and Control all handled by every member of the party.

Maybe YOU are advocating making the game more like LoL or TF2 (why you couldnt just go play those? I dunno) but go and read all those “nerf zerker” threads. Most of the know-nothings posting in there were not talking about playing a game with roles, they were talking about roleplaying. They were saying things that were clearly RP based like, “I want to play a healer!” or “I don’t want to do dps I want to do Support!”

They clearly do not want to play the game Anet designed, they want to play some classic trinity game and it’s painfully obvious.

If you look up Combat on the wiki, they do denote specfic roles for combat in GW2, coining them Damage, Control and Support; however the word role, may or may not have been a good name for them. I think tactic’s would be more accurate as roles make them sound like a focused playstyle. This is probably where a lot of the contraversy arises, as players see the word “roles” and want to dedicate themselves to a role. They want to be to be a dpser who burns down and opponent before them, or a controller who will utterly subdues their opponent or a supporter who’s mere presense increases their party’s performance 10-fold, and they want be praised as a credit to their party. Unfortuatly, due to several miss steps and bad shortcuts taken in combat design, the only one of them that gets to have their cake and eat it too are those that invest in damage, and unless encounters are overhauled, it will likely remain that way.

Damage roles won’t be deminished until they increase the pressure on glass cannons, the harder it is to glass, the more useful support becomes, and if support becomes important enough, support and sustain stats will start to become important. As for control, it’s in a funny place because it’s the only role with no stats directly tied to it, the only thing that’s keeping it out of the sun is defiant, which acts as a hard counter to the hard control which would trivalize encounters if left unchecked. Anet has been experimenting with ways to make mob resilient to Control, without make them immune to it. If made enemies start to move and kite so that parties simply stand in thier faces dpsing them, then control would become very useful. As an added effect I forgot to mention, the harder it is to dps, the more ranged and defense oriented weapons become useful.

(And I just wrote half an essay on my phone on the bus ;; )

Dual.8953:

Damage roles won’t be deminished until they increase the pressure on glass cannons, the harder it is to glass, the more useful support becomes, and if support becomes important enough, support and sustain stats will start to become important. As for control, it’s in a funny place because it’s the only role with no stats directly tied to it, the only thing that’s keeping it out of the sun is defiant, which acts as a hard counter to the hard control which would trivalize encounters if left unchecked. Anet has been experimenting with ways to make mob resilient to Control, without make them immune to it. If made enemies start to move and kite so that parties simply stand in thier faces dpsing them, then control would become very useful. As an added effect I forgot to mention, the harder it is to dps, the more ranged and defense oriented weapons become useful.

(And I just wrote half an essay on my phone on the bus ;; )

Defiant could probably be reworked into a cooldown system – such as by making the boss immune to cc for a short duration (5-10s) after they are struck by a hard cc effect. Or by somehow making Defiant work by player (in small stacks) rather than by group in large stacks.

Theres nothing wrong with defiant apart from its implementation and scaling in open world. Its perfectly balanced for dungeons and makes people only use cc when needed.

The main issue is the unshakeable buff. It makes blind rng based which you cant ever trust and it reduces duration of some important debuff conditions. If blind was only applied 10% of the time instead of working 10% of the time then we could actually use blind as a valid damage mitigation tool on bosses.

I dunno, I’d rather see Defiant be reworked so it worked in a reverse fashion to Mai’s shielding. Originally the boss can be interrupted/CC’d freely, but the more CC is used against them in a short period of time, the more resistant they get to it until they’re completely immune.

There’s no perfect solution for Defiant, but I think it’s generally agreed upon its current implementation is very poor.

Other games have Defiant-like mechanics. For instance, Wildstar and Dragon’s Quest have “Interrupt Armor.” This effect regenerates itself over time. Once players do enough interrupts/crowd controls against the creature, it will no longer be protected by it. At that point, there is a window of time whereby it can be subject to all forms of CC/interrupts, and after a short moment it regains all of its Interrupt Armor.

Yup, I can sauce my statement.

We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta/first

You can’t view DPS dominance as something worth addressing, if it was the only thing you ever intended players to use.

@Nike
I can’t quite figure out what you mean.
I guess if you don’t have much experience with roles, you might not know ‘Healer’ and ‘Support’ are actually two role terms. They don’t mean they want to pretend they’re doctors or something, they’re referring to actual real gameplay mechanics.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Yup, I can sauce my statement.

We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta/first

You can’t view DPS dominance as something worth addressing, if it was the only thing you ever intended players to use.

Beserker is the key word there. There is a problem that condition damage is completely sub par in pve. And that pve is too easy so that the dps meta is too easily followed. It needs to be more challenging so only skilled players can effectively follow it. There is nothing wrong with the actual balance of offensive gear compared to defensive gear. Devs are just doing this as a band-aid solution to close the gap and satisfy the QQ’ers.

There is nothing wrong with the character building process. Its one of the best ive seen in any game and revamping it just to satisfy roleplayers and casuals at the expense of hardcore players is not the answer.

There are two words, there.
I have no reason to just flat-out ignore one.

(especially given the context of the thread it was posted as a response to).

It all comes back to the fatal flaw in their reasoning, people want their gear selection to say something about their playstyle. It doesn’t.

I’ve said it before and no one has ever refuted it: gear in this game is not the determining factor in your playstyle. Gear is a choice of where you fall on the defense offense spectrum. Your playstyle is defined by traits and weapon choice.

Bottom line is some people want to change that fundamental feature of the game’s character building process, and some don’t. What is quite obvious is that the higher your experience/skill level, and the higher your understanding of the game’s mechanics, the more likely you are not to be interested in changing the current character building process for RP considerations.

No, it doesn’t come back to any of that.
Who cares what the status quo is when the devs have stated they intend to change it?

Vox Hollow.2736:

No, it doesn’t come back to any of that.
Who cares what the status quo is when the devs have stated they intend to change it?

10% nerf is really gonna shake things up folks

(inb4 “they’re just starting”— I’ll believe it when I see it)

You’re entitled to your skepticism.
However, not wanting to trust them doesn’t somehow magically erase the words from existence.

Vox Hollow.2736:

No, it doesn’t come back to any of that.
Who cares what the status quo is when the devs have stated they intend to change it?

The designers are slightly nerfing Critical Damage damage by 10%. It’s still going to be the best.

By the way, this is the quote:

Jon peters

We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon

“Next week” they announced the change to Critical Damage. They aren’t going to do anything about “skipping” or “stacking”, because last I heard everyone can do both of those things. Wasn’t that the entire point of this thread?

In the Ready Up stream they made it clear they didn’t intend for this to be the alpha and omega of changes.
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/496005243 (8:50-9:53)

But, you’re right, of course. I kind of allowed myself to get taken reaaalllllyyy far off topic. And I am sorry for that.

spoj.9672:

Beserker is the key word there. There is a problem that condition damage is completely sub par in pve. And that pve is too easy so that the dps meta is too easily followed. It needs to be more challenging so only skilled players can effectively follow it. There is nothing wrong with the actual balance of offensive gear compared to defensive gear. Devs are just doing this as a band-aid solution to close the gap and satisfy the QQ’ers.

There is nothing wrong with the character building process. Its one of the best ive seen in any game and revamping it just to satisfy roleplayers and casuals at the expense of hardcore players is not the answer.

Yep this is exactly what’s happening, we are getting a %10 damage reduction or band-aid. Unless they nerf dodging, blinds, blocks, and other damage mitigation into the ground things won’t change. Well I take that back, players who run damage builds are going to be even less likely to take on players that don’t in their parties. Why? Because they will need to make up the lost damage. It may very well have the opposite of the intended effect. I kinda hope it does honestly.

I would like to see more diversity in the game but a 10% damage reduction isn’t going to make much difference. Condition damage in PVE could use some looking at, it’s very strong in PvP modes however. I think the best way to add diversity would come from giving us new weapons, weapon skills or utilities.

I can’t understand why people don’t play the game as it rather than trying to change it into a completely different game just to suit them. Seems it would be much easier to just find a different game to play. I would be surprised if Anet ever uses the phrase “play how you want” for future titles.

“Play how you want” originally pertained to playing different game modes and be rewarded similarly, not running bearbows or clericstaves.

haviz.1340:

“Play how you want” originally pertained to playing different game modes and be rewarded similarly, not running bearbows or clericstaves.

Yeah I agree, but it was so easy for people apply it to any aspect of the game, and to even become a rallying cry for bad builds and playstyles. That phrase is too self serving and should never be slapped onto any game box.

Nokaru.7831:

Vox Hollow.2736:

How things operate now has been identified as a problem to which devs announce they’re seeking a solution. All that’s left to discuss at this stage is how, not if.

Can you source this? (So we can see if it exists, and if it does, to what extent you’re twisting the truth about it)

The devs have made it clear that they do not recognise the problem is with the ai, game mechanics and pve design by running to the zerker nerfbat. This really upset me when they announced it, not because of the nerf, but because it imo showed they must not be paying attention to the real issues.

They did actually acknowledge that its down to ai. But they said thats not possible for them to change due to resources.

Seems like things have taken a more reasonable turn. Anyway, I started organizing a few runs so far. Found some more interested players. Also started up a secondary guild (as in one that is not meant to be anyone’s main guild and which does not have representation requirements). It’s basically a specialized extra list of friends and contacts. Anyone who is interested is welcome.

make the mobs in dungeon like in WOW.. give them an endless agro leash.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Seems like things have taken a more reasonable turn. Anyway, I started organizing a few runs so far. Found some more interested players. Also started up a secondary guild (as in one that is not meant to be anyone’s main guild and which does not have representation requirements). It’s basically a specialized extra list of friends and contacts. Anyone who is interested is welcome.

Hey just curious Duke, what’s your stance on people using non Meta builds? You cool with people using cleric guard, shout heal war, etc.?

Who are you going to heal without stacking?

kyubi.3620:

make the mobs in dungeon like in WOW.. give them an endless agro leash.

stealth

laharl.8435:

kyubi.3620:

make the mobs in dungeon like in WOW.. give them an endless agro leash.

stealth

But that’s exploiting.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Seems like things have taken a more reasonable turn. Anyway, I started organizing a few runs so far. Found some more interested players. Also started up a secondary guild (as in one that is not meant to be anyone’s main guild and which does not have representation requirements). It’s basically a specialized extra list of friends and contacts. Anyone who is interested is welcome.

Hey just curious Duke, what’s your stance on people using non Meta builds? You cool with people using cleric guard, shout heal war, etc.?

Completely. While these things aren’t “competitive” or even particularly good, they still function well enough for most content. I’m not going to kick someone out of easy content for running something like that… now in something like Frac50…. well, that might be another story. But then again, such elite content is best done with coordinated groups of players you are used to playing with anyway – it shouldn’t be an issue at that point.

I skip so much content and fight so many bosses in corners because that’s what the group wants to do and quite frankly its the most efficient way to run the dungeon. There are some bosses that Idek the mechanics for because they way we kill it makes it so much easier. I’d love for a hotfix to prevent skipping content and stack killing

Fantastic.5298:

I’d love for a hotfix to prevent skipping content and stack killing

So instead of letting groups play how they want and starting your own party to do the same, you’d rather they change it so everyone plays your way?

Duke Blackrose.4981:

The reactions to this thread are quite frankly ridiculous. This is a post for those seeking to join and play fun, traditional runs of the dungeon – and nothing else.

It’s not an attack on your precious lifestyle. You’re reading too far into it. I’m not trying to destroy your precious little stacking game – the developers are the only ones who can decide on when, how, or even if this is going to happen. I’m not even trying to insult you. I’m not calling you bad players. The playstyle is unskillful, mindless, and boring – that’s not a personal insult and it’s not subjective. That doesn’t reflect on you. It certainly doesn’t make you unskilled – all it means is that you’ve done everything in your power to chase carrots as efficiently and quickly as possible, and there’s nothing innately wrong with that. It’s just that you aren’t utilizing the mechanics of the game to their full extent, because you don’t have to. The game doesn’t require it, after all, so why make things harder on yourself other than for the enjoyment of doing so; that enjoyment is the entire reason for the thread.

I am an intensely bored player looking to enjoy himself and play the game the way it was played before stacking became the norm. No, it doesn’t bother me that you have your all zerk speed runs or other explicitly special runs. What disgusts me is that stacking is the assumed meta – that, in order to play otherwise, one has to make threads like these and find likeminded people and explicitly post LFG messages JUST to get a group that wants to play. So yes, I’m a little bit angry that my favorite game has devolved to that point. And I’m more than a little bit angry that, in seeing my attempt to salvage the game for myself and a few others, the first reaction of the community is to derail my thread and get into hostile arguments for no good reason.

Basically, I ask you to express your opinion in a reasonable fashion, enjoy the game your way, and allow me to enjoy it in mine. If you’re not interested in participating or in reasonable discussion, the thread is not for you and has never been for you. God knows you have a billion others. I have to work a LOT harder for it than you do – all you have to do is spend 30 seconds in the LFG system, whereas I have to come in here and deal with this.

I’m not going to bother arguing any longer. And I haven’t bothered in several days. It’s pointless. There’s no need to. It’s not my intention nor my point to participate in pointless hostility.

But, because I was disillusioned and bitter at the time of making the thread, I will clean up the original post. God knows it wasn’t helping things, and it probably came off worse than it needed to, but the direction this thread has gone really sheds light on how far the Guild Wars community has fallen. And that’s the saddest thing. In a purely cooperative game with remarkably friendly design, the community is this prone to hostility. Think on that.

Quoted in full. I can but offer one like.

Like it was mentioned several times, both sides play as they want. I was reared on ‘traditional’ dungeon runs and this newfangled stacking thing (fortunately reserved for GW2 only, heavens be blessed) does nothing for me. Fortunately I play with other similar thinking individuals.

But then we do not play GW2 like some sort of slot machine with fake rewards instead of just playing it for fun.

P.S. It is amazing how playing a dungeon normally is ‘playing a headless chicken game’ or ‘roleplaying’. 98% of the games out there with dungeons/instances do not do the stacking game. 98% of the game market involving dungeons/instance is a headless chicken game for roleplayers.

Mind, blown.

@Kanto, your last paragraph is perhaps the most haughty and elitist I’ve ever seen. Like you’re better than anyone who plays to see as much content and experience as many events a day as they can is a bad person. If my options are, play for 15 minutes and do something as much fun as I can, I’d like to do a speed run of such and such dungeon, rather than not play at all. You seem to think we aren’t finding this fun, or that you are somehow better than those of us who do.

Get off your high horse, and see that you aren’t the standard we should be holding ourselves to, just because you think it’s best.

Ah Lilith, a beautiful rose with thorns. I love it.