Guild Wars 2

I hope this guild is formed and that they record/stream all their runs.

MastaNeenja.1537:

That would be ironic if they formed a guild tagged PASS
Players against stacking skipping.

I find it hard to believe with the amount of players who make threads about skipping and stacking that it’s just too hard to find a group to play with. There’s clearly enough people to form a guild. I read through the topic and as someone pointed out this was attempted. Maybe they didn’t have good promoters?

Seriously give it a try make a guild and make friends and parties, I hope it all goes well.

This is the correct way to approach this subject; you have the support of this dirty slacker/stacker.

I think it has a lot to do with the nature of an MMO that has been released for this time span. Recruiting is the most difficult aspect of running a guild until the size of the guild is appealing enough to speak for itself. During the early weeks of a game’s release, there is a larger percentage of the community that is looking for a guild. It’s easy to grab sufficient members at this point. Months down the road, however, most members are either going to be: new players (much less common), those who lost their guild or became dissatisfied with it, or multi-guilders. Of course, once in a while, new game content will be appealing enough to inspire a new guild with wide appeal (see Tequatl rework and TTS). This is an exception to the rule, but it does demonstrate that new guilds generally only explode into popularity when they are managed well and the game itself radically changes.

I could very much see why an anti-stack guild failed like it did: the players who would be interested in it are fragmented and divided not only by server but also between those who would be willing to join and those who are simply too attached to their current guild. To make an initiative like that successful, an aspiring guild leader is going to need to be very competent, lucky, and dedicated to the cause, though it would certainly be awesome if an initiative like this were to flourish. I don’t know. I might try it. It’s a tempting prospect, to be sure, but I’m not sure I’m up to the task. I’ve already failed the role of guild leader multiple times due to a lack of recruiting power – though they were, admittedly, attempts at general PvX guilds.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

MastaNeenja.1537:

That would be ironic if they formed a guild tagged PASS
Players against stacking skipping.

I find it hard to believe with the amount of players who make threads about skipping and stacking that it’s just too hard to find a group to play with. There’s clearly enough people to form a guild. I read through the topic and as someone pointed out this was attempted. Maybe they didn’t have good promoters?

Seriously give it a try make a guild and make friends and parties, I hope it all goes well.

This is the correct way to approach this subject; you have the support of this dirty slacker/stacker.

I think it has a lot to do with the nature of an MMO that has been released for this time span. Recruiting is the most difficult aspect of running a guild until the size of the guild is appealing enough to speak for itself. During the early weeks of a game’s release, there is a larger percentage of the community that is looking for a guild. It’s easy to grab sufficient members at this point. Months down the road, however, most members are either going to be: new players (much less common), those who lost their guild or became dissatisfied with it, or multi-guilders. Of course, once in a while, new game content will be appealing enough to inspire a new guild with wide appeal (see Tequatl rework and TTS). This is an exception to the rule, but it does demonstrate that new guilds generally only explode into popularity when they are managed well and the game itself radically changes.

I could very much see why an anti-stack guild failed like it did: the players who would be interested in it are fragmented and divided not only by server but also between those who would be willing to join and those who are simply too attached to their current guild. To make an initiative like that successful, an aspiring guild leader is going to need to be very competent, lucky, and dedicated to the cause, though it would certainly be awesome if an initiative like this were to flourish. I don’t know. I might try it. It’s a tempting prospect, to be sure, but I’m not sure I’m up to the task. I’ve already failed the role of guild leader multiple times due to a lack of recruiting power – though they were, admittedly, attempts at general PvX guilds.

Well nothing worth having is easily attained, you need to find a small group of regulars first. Once you get your guild established you can always check here we get a new stacking or skipping is bad thread every week, you can try to recruit here. Or if you’re on an NA Server meet players on an EU server try to get a sister guild started.

J Eberle.9312:

I hope this guild is formed and that they record/stream all their runs.

I would definitely be entertained by this.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Don’t forget to kill the champ troll in AC.

Eh. Why not? Or Kholer, for that matter. They’re both easy. Hell, I’ll even forgive the exploit where you make them fight each other.

You are wrong, ghosts see everyone as invaders, trolls included. It’s not exploit

it is also true that often the presence of a trinity involves not stacking. GW2 not having a trinity system, favors another kind of play.
I do not say it is pretty to watch all this stacking, but nobody forces you to do so.
What I mean is: you can play it however you prefer, I do not see the reason to criticize in general a system which allows you to choose your way to fight mobs.

Sublimatio.6981:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Don’t forget to kill the champ troll in AC.

Eh. Why not? Or Kholer, for that matter. They’re both easy. Hell, I’ll even forgive the exploit where you make them fight each other.

You are wrong, ghosts see everyone as invaders, trolls included. It’s not exploit

Okay, you earned a laugh while making a valid point all at once. It’s rare that you see something like this be effectively justified through lore.

zaw.6741:

nice ppl that will die in easiest path of easiest dungeon and blame others for it
i dont feel ‘so good’, but if someones running same path for 10th/100th time that person is doing it for shinies [gold/tokens]. why waste our time killing trash, if they dont give us shinies and we DONT HAVE TO kill them?

i understand you, but unless devs make it impossible to skip, 90% of lfg runs gonna be ‘80 speed’

Wait, what kind of nice person blames the rest of the team for his failure ?

But I have no problem with skipping stuff, as long as you do it how it was meant to (by running right into them and taking advantage of their leash) and not by exploiting. I do however have a very big problem against people that exploit some bosses by stacking in a corner so the boss’s main attacks won’t hit them due to bad programming.

Why ? It’s not even for “it takes the fun away” it’s because, yes fine maybe some players can do it without exploiting and they deem it is faster to exploit, but for a lot of them they can’t. Which is why people exploit : they die, so it’s faster to exploit. But if they keep doing it like that, do they get better at this game ?

I think the Marionette is the best answer : every time I see a platform wipe, someone say that Warden 1/2/3/4/5 is the hardest boss, someone who can’t think on their own yet they have titles like Dungeon Master or Sun Bringer or a bunch of legendaries, I realize that too many aspects of this game are too easy (and then it saddens me to remember that most of them are exploited so that even a cat behind a computer could do it).
Fortunately (or not) Anet is going to keep releasing harder content, unfortunately players are going to boycott it because they’ll find it too hard and unfair and that it only caters to zerkers and min/maxers (like Aetherblade), so they are going to keep being bad at this game because it’s more rewarding to exploit easy content.

I’d like to request a full clear of dredge fractal. Please make into a video for my (and possibly many others) enjoyment.

Quote and re post if you agree.

Tree.3916:

I’d like to request a full clear of dredge fractal. Please make into a video for my (and possibly many others) enjoyment.

Quote and re post if you agree.

Yes full clear dredge lvl 49. You can’t proceed into the next area, until you completely kill all the mobs :O

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Tree.3916:

I’d like to request a full clear of dredge fractal. Please make into a video for my (and possibly many others) enjoyment.

Quote and re post if you agree.

Yes full clear dredge lvl 49. You can’t proceed into the next area, until you completely kill all the mobs :O

The horror. I can’t imagine how long this would take and how many wipes you’d have to endure, especially no stacking. So many dredge…

Out of curiosity, are skills that group mobs together discouraged as well? Or only terrain tactics are discouraged for grouping mobs?

laharl.8435:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Tree.3916:

I’d like to request a full clear of dredge fractal. Please make into a video for my (and possibly many others) enjoyment.

Quote and re post if you agree.

Yes full clear dredge lvl 49. You can’t proceed into the next area, until you completely kill all the mobs :O

The horror. I can’t imagine how long this would take and how many wipes you’d have to endure, especially no stacking. So many dredge…

Out of curiosity, are skills that group mobs together discouraged as well? Or only terrain tactics are discouraged for grouping mobs?

Any skills that group together mobs are literally exploits and not intended by devs because I said so.

laharl.8435:

The horror. I can’t imagine how long this would take and how many wipes you’d have to endure, especially no stacking. So many dredge…

Out of curiosity, are skills that group mobs together discouraged as well? Or only terrain tactics are discouraged for grouping mobs?

And best part is, since they are against skipping. They will have to fight their way to the bomb door(if they get that variant), and try to kill all the mobs each bomb pass. Oh that would be fun to watch lol.

Pure evil!

Please don’t do what Chuck suggests.

I like GW2 combat, but I am starting to dislike the players who run these dungeons in this game. There are so many elitists players and its starting to get annoying being grouped with them.

You can add me to your dungeon runs, I am interested in trying them without skipping/exploiting and avoiding the type of people who posted in this thread.

Yes. People who don’t play the way I want are elitists and I am sick and tired of them ruining my experience when I join their groups. Sign me up.

Ytlayol.5864:

I like GW2 combat, but I am starting to dislike the players who run these dungeons in this game. There are so many elitists players and its starting to get annoying being grouped with them.

You can add me to your dungeon runs, I am interested in trying them without skipping/exploiting and avoiding the type of people who posted in this thread.

Well, no one is forcing you to join us, make your own groups. Seriously.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

This is a common theme for people new to dungeons. Once you run them hundreds of times, you will quickly see why we stack/skip. But some skips are fun, like the Arah runs. And some bosses are actually fun, like ol’ Lupi <3

This

Iris Ng.9845:

I PASSS. Come back to the discussion when the OP run a few more dungeons (outside AC and CoF).

This

Lindbur.2537:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Tired of not actually playing the game when you run dungeons with pugs? Tired of skipping half of the dungeon? Tired of exploits? Tired of gameplay that has been dumbed down to dodge rolling into walls and spamming 1? Honestly, it seems that, as a result of all of the efficiency-oriented dungeon metagames and champ zerging, most of the community has forgotten how to actually play.

That’s a nice offer, but I think you are having some misconceptions about our skill levels. And I’m quite certain that speedrun tactics are the result of repeatedly doing dungeons and learning every detail of the encounters. Efficient, yes, but we most certainly have not forgotten how to play, we just want to avoid wasting time and repair fees.

But that doesn’t matter. We play how we want. Good luck. :>

This

Sir Isaac The Great.5341:

Hey I am all for playing however you want to play buddy! You want to not stack or skip anything that is fine by me…..but when you join my LFG post that says EXP LvL 80 Speed Run….don’t complain that we are stacking or skipping. Make your own post!

And last but not least this

Nvidia the way it’s meant to be played comes to mind for some reason

While I do not sympathize with OP’s idea of running dungeons, I think it’s impolite to look down on him because of it. The game benefits from different communties, playing with like-minded people is what creates fun. In this sense I wish the OP the best of luck with his community.

The way he addresses those who do stack is derogatory and rude.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Tired of not actually playing the game when you run dungeons with pugs? Tired of skipping half of the dungeon? Tired of exploits? Tired of gameplay that has been dumbed down to dodge rolling into walls and spamming 1? Honestly, it seems that, as a result of all of the efficiency-oriented dungeon metagames and champ zerging, most of the community has forgotten how to actually play.

Elitists don’t have human rights.

To be clear, the elitist comment was never intended to be applied to anything other than “those who discriminate based on class or gear (or the unstated but common Achievement Point discrimination).” I edited the paragraph break there to make that more clear.

Mmmm. I’ve been playing since Beta and I still much prefer to run a dungeon this way.

So, I want to support your effort….
…but, on the flipside, I am super happy with my current guild because they act like this normally, and it rare we’re wanting to pug a fifth. So I don’t really know how to support this effort exactly?

And, I’ll be honest, I think you might run into alot of that.

If you hate what the dungeon scene has become; you’ve either bunkered down with some comrades in arms, or frankly found a game that isn’t such a fascinating well-intentioned trainwreck of giving people enough rope to hang themselves with.

I hate to say it, but, it’s just a really bad time right now for newbie dungeoneers who are looking for exciting and memorable dungeon experiences.

Might not be considered as a good idea to some people, but I’d really, really appreciate some mechanic that prevents stacking. Perhaps adding AoE abilities that are targeted at peoples position (forcing them to move a couple of meters) to encounters where stacking is blatantly used

Phadde.7362:

Might not be considered as a good idea to some people, but I’d really, really appreciate some mechanic that prevents stacking. Perhaps adding AoE abilities that are targeted at peoples position (forcing them to move a couple of meters) to encounters where stacking is blatantly used

Tons of mobs use AoE. People use the skills given them to mitigate.

laharl.8435:

Phadde.7362:

Might not be considered as a good idea to some people, but I’d really, really appreciate some mechanic that prevents stacking. Perhaps adding AoE abilities that are targeted at peoples position (forcing them to move a couple of meters) to encounters where stacking is blatantly used

Tons of mobs use AoE. People use the skills given them to mitigate.

That’s exploiting! Now you die like a good little piggy!

NO. You must stand there and facetank it. That way people will be encouraged to wear cleric’s/pvt.

J Eberle.9312:

NO. You must stand there and facetank it. That way people will be encouraged to wear cleric’s/pvt.

The problem is if all in the party have 300/dps on a mob with 70k hp that hit for 15k on glass targets you’re still going to get hit for 10k or more the difference is. Instead of bursting it down it will burst you down. There is no healing skills that can save you.

J Eberle.9312:

NO. You must stand there and facetank it. That way people will be encouraged to wear cleric’s/pvt.

/sarcasm

laharl.8435:

Phadde.7362:

Might not be considered as a good idea to some people, but I’d really, really appreciate some mechanic that prevents stacking. Perhaps adding AoE abilities that are targeted at peoples position (forcing them to move a couple of meters) to encounters where stacking is blatantly used

Tons of mobs use AoE. People use the skills given them to mitigate.

Then those AoEs aren’t “forcing them to move a couple of meters”. What I meant was that these AoEs (given to mobs wherever needed) would actually be forcing players to do so.

I.e. : If a fairly tough mob (or boss) who is usually exploited by mindless stacking was given an AoE that was targeted at players’ position that perhaps created a pool of acid, which ticks for a serious amount of damage. Fairly easy to avoid and even more so to stay out of. This would probably eliminate stacking on that encounter, wouldn’kitten And it’s easy to recreate but with new flavors and themes but while having the main and basic effect the same.

If they somehow discourage stacking, support will be even more discouraged.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

A while back someone in this forum made a “Kill All Monsters” guild that was about this very same thing. Nobody joined and the guild died of inactivity.

What happens is a lot of carebears talk a good game about wanting no stacking, anything goes runs but when faced with the reality of a 1 hour AC path 1, they don’t show up. So really think about what you are asking for, and if you are really committed to the concept enough to keep such a guild alive.

Ohhh ‘mon…This made me chuckle…It’s so hilarious,but so on spot
I can’t agree more.

Phadde.7362:

laharl.8435:

Phadde.7362:

Might not be considered as a good idea to some people, but I’d really, really appreciate some mechanic that prevents stacking. Perhaps adding AoE abilities that are targeted at peoples position (forcing them to move a couple of meters) to encounters where stacking is blatantly used

Tons of mobs use AoE. People use the skills given them to mitigate.

Then those AoEs aren’t “forcing them to move a couple of meters”. What I meant was that these AoEs (given to mobs wherever needed) would actually be forcing players to do so.

I.e. : If a fairly tough mob (or boss) who is usually exploited by mindless stacking was given an AoE that was targeted at players’ position that perhaps created a pool of acid, which ticks for a serious amount of damage. Fairly easy to avoid and even more so to stay out of. This would probably eliminate stacking on that encounter, wouldn’kitten And it’s easy to recreate but with new flavors and themes but while having the main and basic effect the same.

Are you familiar with the Molten duo bosses in Fractals? And Giganticus Lupicus with his mighty Necrid Barrage? People can still stack and melee those bosses.

So I wonder how you define your idea of ‘Mindless Stacking’?

Hey. When I saw this thread I knew I gotta make an input to it.

Yes, you are right to some extent. It is a stupid and non-skilled way to aproach dungeons with skip-stack technique but at the same time, they are the ones who do insane speed records on the bosses and dungeon runs and I guess that compensates to the “no-skill stack/skip”.

Anyways, after playing XxX and mostly XXXX Online (names hidden to avoid advertising), the biggest thing I miss in Guild Wars 2 are BAM (Big kitten monsters) fights. 99% of all the bosses (be it end bosses or mid stage bosses) are at the size of an average human. I wouldn’t be bothered by that but at the same time it makes no sence that 5 players who are the same (or even bigger size) than the boss itself, would actually be struggling to kill it. Therefore you have BAMs in most of very good MMORPGs. BAM fights are EPIC, require a very high skill of attention and timing your dodges and attacks. Every BAM has stages and in each stage he surprises players with new and different attacks they have to adapt to and that said, it’s the thing that makes playing MMOs fun and epic.

99% of bosses (within dungeons) in Guild Wars 2 maintain same skills through out all the fight and the easiest way to defeat them is to actually stack on the wall and hit them with everything you’ve got – because walls will never make you loose mob’s/bosses’ hit-box. The only boss that I would call something like a BAM is Lupicus in all Arah paths but even he has some things that will never make him a true BAM.

Most boss fights in Guild Wars 2 last for barely 1 minute (in some cases more, in some less) where as the epic BAM fights are intended to last well over 10 minutes. Well, it may seem like a lot of time but unlike in Guild Wars 2, BAMs WILL ALWAYS DROP VALUABLE THINGS. They aren’t limited by RNG and “Account ’un’lucky-curse” like in Guild Wars 2 and will actually reward you properly for being up to the challenge (The only thing you have to worry about is whether you get those valuables for your class or not – but hey, on the other hand that only pushes towards players making more classes) – Not to mention, the bigger the challange, the bigger and better the rewards you get (Unlike in Guild Wars 2 where rewards are the same in Arah and in Ascalonian Catacombs – champ boxes and globs of globy goop).

To proceed to somewhat next stage of my reply, BAMs are so hard until you learn, that you have to take “Holy Trinity” to your adventure. What is the Holy Trinity? It’s a concept of party construction where every party must consist of a Healer, Tank and Damage dealers in order to be successful on their adventure. Yes, in my honest opinion, that’s as high as you can get with skill as it’s possible – to be able to harmonize.

That being said, Guild Wars 2 at this very moment has most of dungeon parties consisting of 5 full berserker, maximum DPS classes (Usually a guardian, elementalist, a warrior or two and usually a ranger or a thief for stealth + 10% damage boosts). Many of you call this elitism but I don’t and I do belong to these speed runners. It is currently the most efficient way to make profit. My account in Guild Wars 2 is cursed with “unlucky curse” as I like to call it. In a year and a half of playing, doing dungeons, participating in all aspects of the game, spending 500 gold+ in Mystic Forge, my account has NEVER EVER seen a thing that would go for over 50 gold on trading post. The most valuable (and the only) thing I’ve gotten so far was Molten pet from last winter/spring living story. On the other hand, I have friends that have gotten 10+ precursers putting less or the same amount of effort in the game. So the only way for me to make profit and to compensate to those “luckers” is to do speedfarms – with them I consume around 50 gold per day – without them, I’d consume 50 gold per week or two.

Reward system in Guild Wars 2 seems very unfair to me – I want to be rewarded for the time I spend doing different kinds of things. I want to enjoy BAM fights, I want to finally experience diversity in classes and builds, I want to play Guild Wars 2 as a proper MMO, not 10 minute dungeon run stack/skip game. I don’t give a flying kitten if I have to spend 2 hours in a dungeon because I know that I will get rewarded for my efforts.

If ANet manages to implement things such as Holy Trinity and BAM fights, here’s a list of things that I predict will change:

• LFG Tool system won’t display LFGs that want 4 out of 8 classes in their group, but will instead look for most likely 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 DPS classes (No matter which class plays which role)
• People won’t stack in corner but will fight Big kitten Monsters with effort through different stages of Bosses’ attacks and will actually require to harmonize with each other – Tank taking in most of the damage, healer keeping tank alive, DPSers do their job
• Making different types of mobs (Elite, Bronze, Champ, …) always dropping something valuable (depending on their type) would most likely make players kill them due to knowing that they will get rewarded for doing so (Currently, you have higher chances of acquiring T6 materials by killing non-hostile mobs like baracudas and skelks than by killing Elites who for example at Jade Maw drop stones)
• People will probably change the approach to parties as they would know that they are going to spend next 2 hours with people in their party, supposingly people would argue less

There would be many other things that would change with such update and so far, I can only see positive ones. Therefore I’m looking forward to the day Guild Wars 2 takes a step back and notices that the essence of MMOs is missing in it and by that, this game makes an insane step forward – becoming my personal Best MMO released so far.

Phadde.7362:

Might not be considered as a good idea to some people, but I’d really, really appreciate some mechanic that prevents stacking. Perhaps adding AoE abilities that are targeted at peoples position (forcing them to move a couple of meters) to encounters where stacking is blatantly used

Have you been to Arah? Risen mages and illusionists have full area denial skills and are targeted on players.

I too would like more mobs like this, because overall the Arah elites actually have interesting mechanics.

LFG Tool system won’t display LFGs that want 4 out of 8 classes in their group, but will instead look for most likely 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 DPS classes (No matter which class plays which role)

No, you will have three DPS players waiting half an hour for a tank and healer.

People won’t stack in corner but will fight Big kitten Monsters with effort through different stages of Bosses’ attacks and will actually require to harmonize with each other – Tank taking in most of the damage, healer keeping tank alive, DPSers do their job

I’d recommend joining a major dungeon guild. It’s too much for me to want to make the effort explaining (unless you want me to), but we take group compositions that synergise well with each other, or “harmonise”. The only time groups don’t synergise is in pugs, and that is perfectly understandable because it’s just five randoms. I’m not sure why you’d expect co-ordination outside of the bare necessities (if that).

Making different types of mobs (Elite, Bronze, Champ, …) always dropping something valuable (depending on their type) would most likely make players kill them due to knowing that they will get rewarded for doing so (Currently, you have higher chances of acquiring T6 materials by killing non-hostile mobs like baracudas and skelks than by killing Elites who for example at Jade Maw drop stones)

I agree. If they make elites and bosses in dungeons drop dragonite ore (maybe 1 per elite, 5 per boss, so if you just kill bosses in something like Arah p2 you end up with 25 ore) it would actually be worth doing full clears.

There would be many other things that would change with such update and so far, I can only see positive ones. Therefore I’m looking forward to the day Guild Wars 2 takes a step back and notices that the essence of MMOs is missing in it and by that, this game makes an insane step forward – becoming my personal Best MMO released so far.

I disagree vehemently with any sort of trinity for this game as it makes me reliant on others. I purposely join Arah lfgs stuck at certain bosses because I enjoy carrying through the dungeon, imposing a trinity means that I wouldn’t be able to carry on a class I prefer and would be forced to take another. GW2 combat is skill based, not class based (entirely), which is a good thing and it should stay that way.

Anicetus.1253:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

I’ve always believed that anyone is free to exercise their freedom, so long that it doesn’t limit others’.

The OP created this thread in such a way that it doesn’t attempt to coerce others to play the way he wants, and in my opinion, this should be respected whether we agree or disagree with his intent.

I like things done quickly and efficiently, so I would never partake in this initiative, but by no means do I condemn it.

Good luck, Duke.

This.
The only thing I disagree on is the ‘way dungeons are meant to be played’.
If there was an intended way, it would definitely include skipping and using terrain (although not to use safespots). I recall dungeons being meant to only be completable with an organized group of good players. Currently any party consisting of five first timers and random weapon sets is able to complete them.

(I bolded your text to address an issue with your comment that it seems a lot of GW2 constituents have – not just you alone)

While I think I understand your point (at least I hope I am), one must realize if dungeons are to “only be completable by organized group(s) of good players” and not for the “five first timers and random weapon sets”, how would you ever be able to get the “organized group”? In short, you wouldn’t. It needs to be able to be worked by anyone with communication (type or voice) and some collective thought. My group that does dungeons is only 4 currently. We have found a perfect synergy within our group and we know what the other is doing and what we need to do. We don’t skip, stack, or anything like that. Once, with 3 (which is how we started and we added a new person into our static group in recently) in the party we completed Arah (not even with 4 or 5).

Allowing new players to learn about the dungeons is important. I’m not saying everyone has to let every new player in, but even you were new to the dungeons once upon a time – as was I, and everyone who runs them, and was/is/will be on this thread. Don’t be so quick to discount or dismiss them, they might even be able to come up with some idea, or thought, or combination that anyone here in the thread could learn from.

This later post is an excellent example of why dungeons should be able to be run by anyone (otherwise these people miss out on a portion of the game they paid for the right to play:

Vox Hollow.2736:

Mmmm. I’ve been playing since Beta and I still much prefer to run a dungeon this way.

So, I want to support your effort….
…but, on the flipside, I am super happy with my current guild because they act like this normally, and it rare we’re wanting to pug a fifth. So I don’t really know how to support this effort exactly?

And, I’ll be honest, I think you might run into alot of that.

If you hate what the dungeon scene has become; you’ve either bunkered down with some comrades in arms, or frankly found a game that isn’t such a fascinating well-intentioned trainwreck of giving people enough rope to hang themselves with.

I hate to say it, but, it’s just a really bad time right now for newbie dungeoneers who are looking for exciting and memorable dungeon experiences.

This is soooooo not the playerbase you can make that kind of a plea with. I’ve never seen such a lazy lot.

hendo.1940:

No, you will have three DPS players waiting half an hour for a tank and healer.

To be honest, after playing XXXX Online, I have never had troubble finding players and I never waited over 5 minutes to get proper roles in my party.

And to summon up, I highly doubt that what you said would be the case. There’s already a very high amount of Guardians, Elementalists and Warriors and these are the main classes that currently do dungeons. Guardian and elementalist would perfectly suit for support role and warrior would perfectly suit into tank role, allowing classes like engineer and necromancer to take their place in the party as well.
(I’m not saying to make each class role-specific, just by making BAM fights, the difficulty would require players to roll holy-trinity and by that said, any class could be anything – healer/support, DPS, tank)

hendo.1940:

I’d recommend joining a major dungeon guild. It’s too much for me to want to make the effort explaining (unless you want me to), but we take group compositions that synergise well with each other, or “harmonise”. The only time groups don’t synergise is in pugs, and that is perfectly understandable because it’s just five randoms. I’m not sure why you’d expect co-ordination outside of the bare necessities (if that).

Again, the holy trinity requires you to harmonize with one another, be it pugs or organized group. I had no problem harmonizing with pugs in XXXX Online even if one of them was a complete noob – that’s because there are 4 other players in the party to back him up.

hendo.1940:

I agree. If they make elites and bosses in dungeons drop dragonite ore (maybe 1 per elite, 5 per boss, so if you just kill bosses in something like Arah p2 you end up with 25 ore) it would actually be worth doing full clears.

I was thinking about something that I actually would call a reward (T6 materials for example – each elite has a chance to drop from 1-5 T6 materials depending on their mob-type) because I personally got too much of that kitten dragonite ore, dust and fragments that I delete them everytime I get them – I don’t plan on crafting ascended armor/weapons because I don’t find it worth 200g+ for a ~4% boost overall. T6 materials on the other hand, even if you don’t intend on crafting anything, can be still sold for a decent amount of gold.

hendo.1940:

I disagree vehemently with any sort of trinity for this game as it makes me reliant on others. I purposely join Arah lfgs stuck at certain bosses because I enjoy carrying through the dungeon, imposing a trinity means that I wouldn’t be able to carry on a class I prefer and would be forced to take another. GW2 combat is skill based, not class based (entirely), which is a good thing and it should stay that way.

Guild Wars was also skill based but you still had DPS, Healer and Tank.

Here’s something from GW1 wiki for you:

Team roles and builds
Type General Particular
Damage Pressure • Spiker • Nuker Beast master • Bomber • Dagger spammer • Touch ranger • Trapper
Support Healer • Protection Battery • Bonder • Imbagon • Infuser • Orders
Control Lineback • Shutdown • Tank Cripshot • Hexway • Minion master • Spirit spammer
Utility Caller • Toolbox

Anyways, the whole self-sufficient class builds in Guild Wars 2 only have 2 versions (PvP excluded). You’re either full berzerker DPS for PvE and dungeons or you’re full tank for WvW. There’s only one site that posts Guild Wars 2 builds and they’re posted mostly by random theory-crafters and on top of that, they’re all basically the same.
Unlike in Guild Wars 1 (Which is by many considered a better game than XxX) where you had full build community always going for different things and making so good builds, they had to nerf them asap.

To be able to rely on others, to trust them and in the end to make it all work is still the highest point you can reach skill-based (not attack skills but skill as your ability to do something) and it’s very good for community as people get along better (from my experience, though, EU nations usually have many problems with each other and their e-battle will last for ever no matter what).

What ever we may say it took me coming to GW2 to meet the ‘stack in a corner to kill the boss’ tactic.

NWN (so ooooold!), City of Heroes/Villains (man, I miss that game), Champions Online, Tera, I even dare to put Diablo 2, WoW (of course) and never did I get to see stacking. It was always ‘learn the boss strategies, then work with them’.

But it was also a trinity type of games. The ‘stacking’ did not happen, but the boss was focused on one person, the tank, and if they were moderately conversant with their class mechanics the boss would only focus on them, allowing for positioning and leaving the others only to focus on their damage (and healing) and avoiding the AoEs.

While I do not miss the tank + healer dynamics for obvious reasons (such as the aforementioned half hour waits trying to find a healer or a tank who could keep aggro) I did like the pitting of myself against the AI and keeping on top of my game.

Kholer is a perfect example only spoiled by GW2’s idea that we should stop ourselves from one-shot kills via the ability to discern animations, an idea spoiled by an incredible amount of spell-effects centered on a normal human sized boss. Make Kholer twice the height of a human (as befits a boss anyway) and we might be able to see things better.

Do I miss the party wipes, sometimes even the disbanding because we couldn’t get past Kholer when we wandered into the place at level 30+? No, but I do not miss the raid wipes either. On the other hand I do miss that ‘YEAH! We did it!!’ from finally beating the encounter.

This is what the new dungeon meta is killing. A new player who joins is immediately indoctrinated into the stack&spank strategy and never even gets to learn the mechanics behind a particular boss.

Then comes the Marionette where we cannot stack and the new (or even old) players stutter and freeze at something that cannot be killed in fifteen seconds and must be navigated at a more sustained pace.

Great points, Kanto.

Incidentally, I’ve always felt like a trinity dynamic would have worked quite well in GW2 because its relatively easy to create and level alts. I would wager that most of the dedicated dungeon community has at least 3 level 80 characters, fully geared.

magicweaver.2695:

Anicetus.1253:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

I’ve always believed that anyone is free to exercise their freedom, so long that it doesn’t limit others’.

The OP created this thread in such a way that it doesn’t attempt to coerce others to play the way he wants, and in my opinion, this should be respected whether we agree or disagree with his intent.

I like things done quickly and efficiently, so I would never partake in this initiative, but by no means do I condemn it.

Good luck, Duke.

This.
The only thing I disagree on is the ‘way dungeons are meant to be played’.
If there was an intended way, it would definitely include skipping and using terrain (although not to use safespots). I recall dungeons being meant to only be completable with an organized group of good players. Currently any party consisting of five first timers and random weapon sets is able to complete them.

(I bolded your text to address an issue with your comment that it seems a lot of GW2 constituents have – not just you alone)

While I think I understand your point (at least I hope I am), one must realize if dungeons are to “only be completable by organized group(s) of good players” and not for the “five first timers and random weapon sets”, how would you ever be able to get the “organized group”? In short, you wouldn’t. It needs to be able to be worked by anyone with communication (type or voice) and some collective thought. My group that does dungeons is only 4 currently. We have found a perfect synergy within our group and we know what the other is doing and what we need to do. We don’t skip, stack, or anything like that. Once, with 3 (which is how we started and we added a new person into our static group in recently) in the party we completed Arah (not even with 4 or 5).

Allowing new players to learn about the dungeons is important. I’m not saying everyone has to let every new player in, but even you were new to the dungeons once upon a time – as was I, and everyone who runs them, and was/is/will be on this thread. Don’t be so quick to discount or dismiss them, they might even be able to come up with some idea, or thought, or combination that anyone here in the thread could learn from.

This later post is an excellent example of why dungeons should be able to be run by anyone (otherwise these people miss out on a portion of the game they paid for the right to play:

Vox Hollow.2736:

Mmmm. I’ve been playing since Beta and I still much prefer to run a dungeon this way.

So, I want to support your effort….
…but, on the flipside, I am super happy with my current guild because they act like this normally, and it rare we’re wanting to pug a fifth. So I don’t really know how to support this effort exactly?

And, I’ll be honest, I think you might run into alot of that.

If you hate what the dungeon scene has become; you’ve either bunkered down with some comrades in arms, or frankly found a game that isn’t such a fascinating well-intentioned trainwreck of giving people enough rope to hang themselves with.

I hate to say it, but, it’s just a really bad time right now for newbie dungeoneers who are looking for exciting and memorable dungeon experiences.

Obviously I’ve been new to dungeons in general once too and had to learn. Does that somehow interfere with my previous statement? All I said is that dungeons (explorable mode) were meant to only be completable with a skilled and organized group (story mode being for others). Thats what arenanet themselves advertised.
Being a skilled player and being experienced in dungeons are two different things. A skilled player is able to read enemies skills on his own and acts in a way to counter them, possibly benefitting the whole party. Experienced (non-skilled) players mindlessly use skills preemptively in order to be safe from certain attacks.
And this should, in my opinion, not work. In order to be able to complete a dungeon, your party should consist of 5 skilled players (who can adapt to the most optimal gear/weapon/traitset). And currently five randoms with extremely subpar builds can faceroll their way through, as you can see from our cleric runs.

This should be changed.

I was looking through my post history, and I dug up this very old thread from my early history.
It’s pretty relevant to this. History repeats itself, folks.

Lindbur.2537:

I was looking through my post history, and I dug up this very old thread from my early history.
It’s pretty relevant to this. History repeats itself, folks.

It repeats itself every week :S

noobgood.8762:

Lindbur.2537:

I was looking through my post history, and I dug up this very old thread from my early history.
It’s pretty relevant to this. History repeats itself, folks.

It repeats itself every week :S

Well it’s funny.

Anicetus.1253:

Obviously I’ve been new to dungeons in general once too and had to learn. Does that somehow interfere with my previous statement? All I said is that dungeons (explorable mode) were meant to only be completable with a skilled and organized group (story mode being for others). Thats what arenanet themselves advertised.
Being a skilled player and being experienced in dungeons are two different things. A skilled player is able to read enemies skills on his own and acts in a way to counter them, possibly benefitting the whole party. Experienced (non-skilled) players mindlessly use skills preemptively in order to be safe from certain attacks.
And this should, in my opinion, not work. In order to be able to complete a dungeon, your party should consist of 5 skilled players (who can adapt to the most optimal gear/weapon/traitset). And currently five randoms with extremely subpar builds can faceroll their way through, as you can see from our cleric runs.

This should be changed.

You mean skilled players aka 2x warrior, 1x guard, 1x ele and 1x ranger for AC where you use Fiery greatsword on Kholer and last boss (which should be the hardest one) with skill 4 inside the wall and the boss falls in 5 seconds? Or you mean skilled players aka 3x warrior, 1x mesmer, 1x guard where all the players have same skill rotation all the time and yet again they stack on the wall and just button mash?

The only real boss at the moment in Guild Wars 2 (Dungeon-wise) is Lupicus but as I said in my previous post, even Lupicus isn’t a real Big kitten monster because all he ever does is spamm epic aoe which mostly one shots you throughout all the area and most of aoe rings are bugged and don’t appear. To make bosses challanging, the trick is not by making insane damage attacks but to make attacks that you have to survive by harmonizing with others (aka. healer-tank).

klemen.8439:

To make bosses challanging, the trick is not by making insane damage attacks but to make attacks that you have to survive by harmonizing with others (aka. healer-tank).

Yes, that would make the game much more enjoyable than 1111111111 spam.

I love it when people use AC runs as the standard. Oh and if you think Lupi is the only real boss that spams AoE, then you never made it past Lupi and somehow never experienced phase 1. Also, requiring players to bring a healer-tank will defiantly kill “play how you want” it’s bad enough that certain classes are highly recommended for certain dungeons/fracs. However, if you’re looking for a challenge and don’t like short runs why not solo Arah?

Perdition.5981:

I love it when people use AC runs as the standard. Oh and if you think Lupi is the only real boss that spams AoE, then you never made it past Lupi and somehow never experienced phase 1. Also, requiring players to bring a healer-tank will defiantly kill “play how you want” it’s bad enough that certain classes are highly recommended for certain dungeons/fracs. However, if you’re looking for a challenge and don’t like short runs why not solo Arah?

I did solo arah p2 (no exploits) for some time and sell it for gold but it repeats and gets boring. Arah p4 i’ve only done once but other than that, there’s no other challanging bosses in Arah to be honest. Even lupicus can be very easy with team of 2x war, 1x guard, 1x mes and 1x whatever because from p2-p3, mesmer will melt lupi if everyone stays melee and those 30-1min kills on lupicus arent a challenge once you’ve learned it – thus why it’s not a real BAM or a boss or whatever u wanna call it.

As for Arah solo in the times I did it (Not after these new updates), Belka was easy-mode, Berserker only has 2 different attacks when melee + bonus berserker stance and is also easy mode with war, Lupi once you’ve learned animations and to time your dodges is also easy mode (takes about 5-7 minutes to kill solo – yeah solo), Alpkitten p2 if you stacked in corner or lured around boxes → also easy mode, last boss isn’t even worth to mention.

P3? No doubt about it, first two bosses are only hard if you don’t have condi-cleanse cos ranger immobilizes you, second boss I’ve never done solo so I won’t be kitten about it, lupi same as p2, last boss ritual solo easy though I’ve never fought last boss solo other than the ritual.

P1? First boss easymode, champions as long as you keep moving = easy mode, tar requires 4 players and with immobilize is easymode, lupi same, last boss solo easy mode just reflect and dodge fire field.

And all that is with full berserker warrior using healing signet, fgj, banner + precision signet with elite signet too (swap precision signet for shake it off some times).

For the running part, with sword/warhorn + greatsword + bull’s charge, no mob will ever hit you and you will stay out of combat all the time (If you think you’ll hit mobs just swap weapons before leap finishes).