Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.
How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
I agree. And it eventually damages a game.
So, instead…
Action:
Make harder content for people that like challenge. Create rewards for said content.Consequence:
People that can’t get it done, demand the another version of it because “I paid for the game too”Action:
Ignore them.Result:
People that actually PAYING for the game leaving due to the lack of content. Anet getting worst financial results ever.And how this is better, eh?
Aren’t you the guy who said the paying people already left ?
At this moment we’re still at the “ignore them” stage. Some people left, but they may yet return. Others haven’t left yet, but aren’t paying anymore – and eventually will leave if this continues.
Not according to the guy who quotes every earnings report ever for HoT here and blames the decline on solely on Raids.
But i guess you just want to ignore that part of his history for your own amusement ?
Decline is a process, not something that happens one day, when you go from the full community to an empty one.
Yes, the people are leaving. Not everyone has left yet. Both statements are true.
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
How is that a problem for any other hard instanced content then raids?
You can take 4 hours to kill each boss in arah/aetherpath that you used as examples.If a cinematic is all they plan on implementing how about they link a youtube video that show all the wings instead less work same result.
I agree that youtube + a completed instance should satisfy anyone who cares that much about the story.
You can also take as long as you want in most raids, assuming you can survive. However, I think theory is pointless here — lupi would stymie an unskilled player just as much as vg would.
Yes but people can solo lupi can you solo any of the raid bosses?
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
How is that a problem for any other hard instanced content then raids?
You can take 4 hours to kill each boss in arah/aetherpath that you used as examples.If a cinematic is all they plan on implementing how about they link a youtube video that show all the wings instead less work same result.
I agree that youtube + a completed instance should satisfy anyone who cares that much about the story.
You can also take as long as you want in most raids, assuming you can survive. However, I think theory is pointless here — lupi would stymie an unskilled player just as much as vg would.
Yes but people can solo lupi can you solo any of the raid bosses?
People are getting close they just 3 manned Vg… give it a little time and someone will find a way.
I agree. And it eventually damages a game.
So, instead…
Action:
Make harder content for people that like challenge. Create rewards for said content.Consequence:
People that can’t get it done, demand the another version of it because “I paid for the game too”Action:
Ignore them.Result:
People that actually PAYING for the game leaving due to the lack of content. Anet getting worst financial results ever.And how this is better, eh?
Aren’t you the guy who said the paying people already left ?
At this moment we’re still at the “ignore them” stage. Some people left, but they may yet return. Others haven’t left yet, but aren’t paying anymore – and eventually will leave if this continues.
Not according to the guy who quotes every earnings report ever for HoT here and blames the decline on solely on Raids.
But i guess you just want to ignore that part of his history for your own amusement ?
Decline is a process, not something that happens one day, when you go from the full community to an empty one.
Yes, the people are leaving. Not everyone has left yet. Both statements are true.
I think it’s due to wvw — the new borderlands was not well received.
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
How is that a problem for any other hard instanced content then raids?
You can take 4 hours to kill each boss in arah/aetherpath that you used as examples.If a cinematic is all they plan on implementing how about they link a youtube video that show all the wings instead less work same result.
I agree that youtube + a completed instance should satisfy anyone who cares that much about the story.
You can also take as long as you want in most raids, assuming you can survive. However, I think theory is pointless here — lupi would stymie an unskilled player just as much as vg would.
Yes but people can solo lupi can you solo any of the raid bosses?
People are getting close they just 3 manned Vg… give it a little time and someone will find a way.
that was before the last balance changes wasent it?
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
How is that a problem for any other hard instanced content then raids?
You can take 4 hours to kill each boss in arah/aetherpath that you used as examples.If a cinematic is all they plan on implementing how about they link a youtube video that show all the wings instead less work same result.
I agree that youtube + a completed instance should satisfy anyone who cares that much about the story.
You can also take as long as you want in most raids, assuming you can survive. However, I think theory is pointless here — lupi would stymie an unskilled player just as much as vg would.
Yes but people can solo lupi can you solo any of the raid bosses?
People are getting close they just 3 manned Vg… give it a little time and someone will find a way.
that was before the last balance changes wasent it?
Lots of dungeon paths are not solo-able — this seems to be a stupid benchmark anyway.
I agree. And it eventually damages a game.
So, instead…
Action:
Make harder content for people that like challenge. Create rewards for said content.Consequence:
People that can’t get it done, demand the another version of it because “I paid for the game too”Action:
Ignore them.Result:
People that actually PAYING for the game leaving due to the lack of content. Anet getting worst financial results ever.And how this is better, eh?
Aren’t you the guy who said the paying people already left ?
What good does catering to a non-existent playerbase do for the current one….Especially if raiding drove them away to begin with why on tyria would they return if raids still exist ?
I don’t recall saying that.
I could be mistaken, but I think you’re pulling things out of your bum.
Also, I wasn’t saying this is guaranteed to happen. I have just seen it happen in other games and would hate to see it here.
Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).
less Intensive Implementation
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They could be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort. I suspect they could be implemented with minimal developer time (but, as always, only ANet can realistically speak to that).
Design Flexibility (including harder content)
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.
Player Better Controls the Experience
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.
Staggered, Logical Implementation
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.
There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They can be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort.
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.
There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.
The only precedence for this kind of system is infantile mode.
Adding unique mechanics seems like more work than adjusting numbers.
I don’t see any functional difference in terms of mote versus mode.
The easier, by far, solution to access any boss in the raid is to have the bosses be selectable (perhaps only to players with a cleared instance).
Easy mode raids will never be a win-win for raiders if it slows down raid development or makes it harder to find a group
Finally, I think we’ve reached the point where this discussion is actually detrimental to those that want to experience the story.
Bobby said that different modes are not currently on the table. By constantly harping on easy mode, you drown possible discussions on solutions they’ll actually implement.
Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They can be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort.
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.
There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.
The only precedence for this kind of system is infantile mode.
Adding unique mechanics seems like more work than adjusting numbers.
I don’t see any functional difference in terms of mote versus mode.
The easier, by far, solution to access any boss in the raid is to have the bosses be selectable (perhaps only to players with a cleared instance).
Easy mode raids will never be a win-win for raiders if it slows down raid development or makes it harder to find a group
Finally, I think we’ve reached the point where this discussion is actually detrimental to those that want to experience the story.
Bobby said that different modes are not currently on the table. By constantly harping on easy mode, you drown possible discussions on solutions they’ll actually implement.
Of course there is precedent. They have used the mote system to add challenge to individual fights many times in other areas of the game without implementing the wholescale changes new modes or tiers would likely require. They have even said they are open to adding motes to existing raids – in the recent AMA.
It isn’t a major leap to understand how those same tools could be used to improve accessibility. And it has the added advantages of flexibility and incremental implemention, lessening the impact on developer resources.
Keep in mind that whatever they do has to give the player the experience of being the hero in the story (gameplay of some kind), or it might as well just be a youtube video of a guild clearing the content. Any real solution that provides that accessibility will take developer resources. There is no way around that. I think the mote idea, which allows pinpoint rather than wholescale alterations, would have the smallest impact on those resources.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They can be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort.
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.
There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.
The only precedence for this kind of system is infantile mode.
Adding unique mechanics seems like more work than adjusting numbers.
I don’t see any functional difference in terms of mote versus mode.
The easier, by far, solution to access any boss in the raid is to have the bosses be selectable (perhaps only to players with a cleared instance).
Easy mode raids will never be a win-win for raiders if it slows down raid development or makes it harder to find a group
Finally, I think we’ve reached the point where this discussion is actually detrimental to those that want to experience the story.
Bobby said that different modes are not currently on the table. By constantly harping on easy mode, you drown possible discussions on solutions they’ll actually implement.
Of course there is precedent. They have used the mote system to add challenge to individual fights many times in other areas of the game without implementing the wholescale changes new modes or tiers would likely require. They have even said they are open to adding motes to existing raids – in the recent AMA.
It isn’t a major leap to understand how those same tools could be used to improve accessibility. And it has the added advantages of flexibility and incremental implemention, lessening the impact on developer resources.
Keep in mind that whatever they do has to give the player the experience of being the hero in the story (gameplay of some kind), or it might as well just be a youtube video of a guild clearing the content. Any real solution that provides that accessibility will take developer resources. There is no way around that. I think the mote idea, which allows pinpoint rather than wholescale alterations, would have the smallest impact on those resources.
There’s no mote that makes a fight easier.
But, again, I’m not sure how this conversation helps at all. Motes, modes, whatever, are not on the table right now. If you really think there’s a problem with story access (beyond exploring a completed instance, which is interactive), and you think a video recap is bad (which is what they did for LS1), then you’re better off recommending something they’ll actually do.
There’s no mote that makes a fight easier.
But, again, I’m not sure how this conversation helps at all. Motes, modes, whatever, are not on the table right now. If you really think there’s a problem with story access (beyond exploring a completed instance, which is interactive), and you think a video recap is bad (which is what they did for LS1), then you’re better off recommending something they’ll actually do.
Correct, the current implementation of motes has historically been to add challenge, but thinking that is all they can be used for doesn’t make any sense. Using that logic, the game would never improve or evolve.
1. There is no carved in stone rule that says motes have to be used to add challenge and never anything else. Of course they can be used for other purposes (and I think they would be perfect for this).
2. They have never said motes are off the table. In fact, they have (just a few days ago in the AMA) said they are considering adding motes to raids. So, yes, they are very much on the table.
3. Even the statement you keep citing about not adding modes was situational and much more specific than you imply – all they really said is that they do not currently plan to add the tiered system similar to that used in fractals in raids (which I agree wouldn’t work well). I think you are taking that and using it to justify a stance that nothing of any substance should be added at all, and I think that is stifling to the conversation.
4. Simply saying that motes and modes are the same thing doesn’t make it true. And, to be realistic, I would say that, in all likelihood, nothing is really completely off the table.
Simply letting people explore a cleared instance isn’t a solution. This is a video game. The whole point is to be the hero of the story. That means having the illusion of control over the outcome. Walking through a cleared instance has less interaction/consequence than a choose your own adventure book – and is pretty much the antithesis of being heroic (“and over here is where the real heroes took care of this for you”).
Videos, NPC regurgitations and cleared instances are bandaids, they are boring and they do not give players the experience of being the hero of the story (which is the whole point of playing). I think the resources they could spend on making any of those would be much better spent elsewhere. For the reasons I’ve cited, I don’t really see a solution that doesn’t involve actual gameplay/combat mechanics – and think instance tours or NPC dialogue would come across more as insulting than as actually trying to give players more accessibility to anything.
So, please – if you have recommendations that you think are better than those already discussed, do so. Should there be a single person instance that has facsimiles of the raid bosses? Five player instances? What are your thoughts?
I think an important question is – do you believe the only solutions are those that don’t offer the fights in any way to people other than those enjoying them now?
As with most topics, I think we need to keep the conversation open to all opinions and ideas – and not read more into the comment about what is on or off the table than was actually stated.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Here are the relevant quotes:
What are chances of getting more challenge moots in the current raids? To keep content more fresh and for groups to push themselves to be better?
Pretty high. We prefer to design new mechanics for them rather than just make them artificially harder, or at least come up with clever achievements. For example: There could have been an achievement in Spirit Vale to kill Sabetha while Karde is still alive. Achievements like that are interesting since it forces you to rethink the encounter a little. Things like “Do we burn Karde to 25% to trigger Sabetha to come back sooner, or do we wait out the timer so that we don’t accidentally kill him in the last phase?”
http://dulfy.net/2016/11/21/gw2-a-crack-in-the-ice-developers-reddit-ama/#Raids
So basically “we’re looking into it, but we don’t know if it’ll happen yet”.
BobbyStein 78 points 19 hours ago
Correct. Perhaps next time I’ll save people the panic and refrain from saying anything. I want to clarify that the only thing I actually said that we were looking into ways to make the story information accessible, not that we were planning any modes or changes to content.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5frr5z/story_mode_raid/damqeha/
I honestly think cleared instances convey the story. If they’re looking for more, maybe a statue of each boss with a one liner? Like: Here lies, vale guardian, protecter of the spirit vale. Vanquished when glenna and her companions sought the missing pact members.
I honestly think cleared instances convey the story.
I don’t want to belabor too much, because you and I are falling back into the loop we always do (I think we are a lot alike in how headstrong we can be – and both probably have more free time than we should), but I will expound on this sentence, which I think gets to the heart of the issue.
In all reality, watching a youtube video of a guild clearing an instance does more to convey the story than a cleared instance or NPC dialogue. For me, the point of accessibility isn’t about conveying or telling the story – its about offering the experience of the story (kind of the point of a video game compared to other media such as movies or books) – to give players the sense of being the hero.
The very first time our characters talk to us, just after creation, they end with the same phrase: “This is my story,” not, “this is the story of the group that did this for me.”
I think that is a very important distinction.
I honestly think cleared instances convey the story.
I don’t want to belabor too much, because you and I are falling back into the loop we always do (I think we are a lot alike in how headstrong we can be – and both probably have more free time than we should), but I will expound on this sentence, which I think gets to the heart of the issue.
In all reality, watching a youtube video of a guild clearing an instance does more to convey the story than a cleared instance or NPC dialogue. For me, the point of accessibility isn’t about conveying or telling the story – its about offering the experience of the story (kind of the point of a video game compared to other media such as movies or books) – to give players the sense of being the hero.
The very first time our characters talk to us, just after creation, they end with the same phrase: “This is my story,” not, “this is the story of the group that did this for me.”
I think that is a very important distinction.
Well, that’s fine. Personally, I think the story is in the environment. But, even so, they are not looking for a story mode, and I feel this discussion drowns out practical answers.
I don’t recall saying that.
I could be mistaken, but I think you’re pulling things out of your bum.Also, I wasn’t saying this is guaranteed to happen. I have just seen it happen in other games and would hate to see it here.
Quote chains my friend, you gotta use them wisely.
It was targeted at our local doomsayer Rednik who falsely using earnings reports and blames all of it on Raids.
I welcome a story mode, as far as rewards go, the usual rewards will do. A champ bag some karma, and some unbound magic.
I agree with others, want the raid rewards, do the raid. I would like the mantle weapons, but I’m mot going to raid, so I have to live with mu choice.
Honestly I can see some of the potential design challenges in this, but as someone who is always eager to experience more gw2 content I would love to see this happen.
My reasoning is split 50/50 and one or the other would mean a different design direction taken.
For the story, I would be fine with Anet creating a sort of Machinima style cutscene that places a character into the scene to act as the “player” perspective. We could see the action unfold and experience the dialogue and such.
For the other half of my want for a story mode would be a way to practice and learn the mechanics of these fights before going in for the proper raid. I don’t belong to a raiding group and with my schedule getting into a training session is super difficult, but it would be nice to be able to teach myself the mechanics so that in the rare instance I find a group that fits me I can just jump in.
A skin or some other similar carrot would be awesome as a reward, def. no raid rewards or anything that devalues the existing raid content. I would love to see this be a stepping stone to larger content. I spent most of my gaming life playing shooters and rpgs, with GW2 only being my second MMO and the first time i’ve ever felt compelled to complete this content.
We can’t all have the exact time tables we would like to tackle this stuff, so having a means of getting there with our own effort over time is appealing.
Most people posting here pleading for a story mode for raids seems to be under the misconception that the boss encounters themselves offer some form of story, which they do not. The story in raids is in the form of dialogue options with the NPC (Glenna) and in the form of scrap notes scattered across the raid instances and also interactive objects (wing 3 in the cortyard and the temple of awakening), all of which can be easily accessed in cleared instances and there is always numerous, such instances in lfg every week, where people can enter freely, explore and learn the story.
I seriously fail to see the point of those pleas, since you already have an option to explore the story, if that is the only thing you care about, since I get the feeling you want to get your way to have more easily accessed raids and get loot from them without putting the effort of learning how to deal with really challenging content.
Just my two cents on the topic.
I don’t recall saying that.
I could be mistaken, but I think you’re pulling things out of your bum.Also, I wasn’t saying this is guaranteed to happen. I have just seen it happen in other games and would hate to see it here.
Quote chains my friend, you gotta use them wisely.
It was targeted at our local doomsayer Rednik who falsely using earnings reports and blames all of it on Raids.
IR DUM. Ignore me.
LOL
Most people posting here pleading for a story mode for raids seems to be under the misconception that the boss encounters themselves offer some form of story, which they do not. The story in raids is in the form of dialogue options with the NPC (Glenna) and in the form of scrap notes scattered across the raid instances and also interactive objects (wing 3 in the cortyard and the temple of awakening), all of which can be easily accessed in cleared instances and there is always numerous, such instances in lfg every week, where people can enter freely, explore and learn the story.
I seriously fail to see the point of those pleas, since you already have an option to explore the story, if that is the only thing you care about, since I get the feeling you want to get your way to have more easily accessed raids and get loot from them without putting the effort of learning how to deal with really challenging content.
Just my two cents on the topic.
Not everyone, I said, that I do not want raid rewards, if I did I’d raid, the reason I don’t is because I don’t have 4-5 hours to just spend doing a raid from start to finish. I would like to experience the “story” or the raid. But I know I can’t. A “story mode” would be great for people like me to see the raid in its entirety, but not get the rewards that a full raid gives. All I’d like is a normal end chest, or story step reward at the most for doing it, I personally would do it if it gave nothing just to see it all. I helped a guild capture there gild hall, just so I could see it as my guild hall is GH. Its the type of gamer I am, I want to see and experience it all, I don’t really care about the rewards.
Yes. Let’s please put aside the idea that this topic is about loot and let’s focus on accessibility.
Even Ohoni, who has been the – by far – most vocal advocate of an easier way to get legendary armor has stated that the more important goal is accessibility, even if it means little to no gear drops in lesser difficulties (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/page/13#post6418915).
Let’s focus this discussion on story accessibility for the sake of accessing the story (which I believe has to include gameplay – or it might as well just be a youtube video) and leave the discussion about reward/loot to other threads.
I don’t raid. So Idk how much value my opinion has although I wouldn’t mind a story mode for raids. (would also vote for the not loot option as well)
Would a story made be 5 man “dungeon” set up, or a solo “LW” kind of thing where your party is made up of your LW team maybe? Or would it be better to just have some “random” pact troops with you?
I don’t mind a story mode for raids but it should never be developed at the expense of another living story update imo
It’s alright to have a story mode for raids with its boss that can be killed only with autoattack, but Story mode is just for a story so rewards must be excluded, even rewarding with a few magnetite shards and exclusive raid skin are still too rewarding for only story mode. otherwise whats the point of raid anyway if story can still reward shard and skin, i said this because i saw someone posted something like this but i didnt remember where, reddit perhaps?
I 100% support this! I will just do the easy/story w/e mode just to have the story and move on to season 3, I could care less about the legendary armor at this point, ATM, I’m not even playing the game as I can’t go further in the story until a remedy be added such as suggested in this topic.
I play how I want and always did— I’m not one to be forced to use a build off a site (meta) or anything to go with 9 strangers I can’t stand and will be measuring you with every sort of metrics they can to find some fault in you and then make you some sort of pariah.
I’m mostly a RPer and a player of average skill in GW2. I have enough knowledge of every class to make my own builds, but when that conflicts with the raiding community, I’m going to have to say no to that and not participate.
I’m not gonna discuss the necessity of raid story mode with you here. But you really shouldn’t wait with playing the current story just because you haven’t done the raids. They add a nice bit of extra flavour, and wether that flavour needs to be available in an easy fashion is a different topic, but Season 3 is 100% playable and makes total sense without the raidstory. So if that’s holding you back and keeping you away from the game, it really shouldn’t.
they can’t even balance this game mode and you are asking for a new one.
I’m surprised people actually care about the story in GW2. Its poorly written and completely not engaging. Most story missions, living story included have paper thin gameplay elements that can’t even service the part of the story it is accompanying.
Look at the level where you defend Aurene. You have the whole chamber with a nice jumping puzzle, yet the developers fashion the defense of Aurene in one static location. It could have been very engaging if Aurene ran away from the destroyers by climbing the jumping puzzle, but no, you spend most of the time idling and throwing AoEs at the destroyers.
And that twist at the end, involving Marjory, its like it got pulled out of thin air. She could’ve taken part in the fight, get seduced to the ‘dark side’ etc, but she just suddenly decides to do something almost out of character. Terrible writing.
I’m surprised people actually care about the story in GW2. Its poorly written and completely not engaging. Most story missions, living story included have paper thin gameplay elements that can’t even service the part of the story it is accompanying.
Look at the level where you defend Aurene. You have the whole chamber with a nice jumping puzzle, yet the developers fashion the defense of Aurene in one static location. It could have been very engaging if Aurene ran away from the destroyers by climbing the jumping puzzle, but no, you spend most of the time idling and throwing AoEs at the destroyers.
And that twist at the end, involving Marjory, its like it got pulled out of thin air. She could’ve taken part in the fight, get seduced to the ‘dark side’ etc, but she just suddenly decides to do something almost out of character. Terrible writing.
Jumping puzzles during fights may be engaging for you but the majority wouldn’t like it. Story instances should be designed to appeal to the majority.
I’m surprised people actually care about the story in GW2. Its poorly written and completely not engaging. Most story missions, living story included have paper thin gameplay elements that can’t even service the part of the story it is accompanying.
Look at the level where you defend Aurene. You have the whole chamber with a nice jumping puzzle, yet the developers fashion the defense of Aurene in one static location. It could have been very engaging if Aurene ran away from the destroyers by climbing the jumping puzzle, but no, you spend most of the time idling and throwing AoEs at the destroyers.
And that twist at the end, involving Marjory, its like it got pulled out of thin air. She could’ve taken part in the fight, get seduced to the ‘dark side’ etc, but she just suddenly decides to do something almost out of character. Terrible writing.
Jumping puzzles during fights may be engaging for you but the majority wouldn’t like it. Story instances should be designed to appeal to the majority.
Safe, stagnant gameplay is probably easy to program, that doesn’t make it appealing. It doesn’t need to be a jumping puzzle. The point is that the potential to use the entirety of a magnificent room was there to make an engaging encounter. Aurene could’ve excreted infantile rainbows to help the player get up the map for all I care, it’d be infinitely more interesting.
I’m surprised people actually care about the story in GW2. Its poorly written and completely not engaging. Most story missions, living story included have paper thin gameplay elements that can’t even service the part of the story it is accompanying.
Look at the level where you defend Aurene. You have the whole chamber with a nice jumping puzzle, yet the developers fashion the defense of Aurene in one static location. It could have been very engaging if Aurene ran away from the destroyers by climbing the jumping puzzle, but no, you spend most of the time idling and throwing AoEs at the destroyers.
And that twist at the end, involving Marjory, its like it got pulled out of thin air. She could’ve taken part in the fight, get seduced to the ‘dark side’ etc, but she just suddenly decides to do something almost out of character. Terrible writing.
Jumping puzzles during fights may be engaging for you but the majority wouldn’t like it. Story instances should be designed to appeal to the majority.
Safe, stagnant gameplay is probably easy to program, that doesn’t make it appealing. It doesn’t need to be a jumping puzzle. The point is that the potential to use the entirety of a magnificent room was there to make an engaging encounter. Aurene could’ve excreted infantile rainbows to help the player get up the map for all I care, it’d be infinitely more interesting.
I like most of the LS2 instances much more gameplaywise than LS3 (stealth mission, the boss encounters). But there were many complains about it.
I’m surprised people actually care about the story in GW2. Its poorly written and completely not engaging. Most story missions, living story included have paper thin gameplay elements that can’t even service the part of the story it is accompanying.
Look at the level where you defend Aurene. You have the whole chamber with a nice jumping puzzle, yet the developers fashion the defense of Aurene in one static location. It could have been very engaging if Aurene ran away from the destroyers by climbing the jumping puzzle, but no, you spend most of the time idling and throwing AoEs at the destroyers.
And that twist at the end, involving Marjory, its like it got pulled out of thin air. She could’ve taken part in the fight, get seduced to the ‘dark side’ etc, but she just suddenly decides to do something almost out of character. Terrible writing.
Jumping puzzles during fights may be engaging for you but the majority wouldn’t like it. Story instances should be designed to appeal to the majority.
Safe, stagnant gameplay is probably easy to program, that doesn’t make it appealing. It doesn’t need to be a jumping puzzle. The point is that the potential to use the entirety of a magnificent room was there to make an engaging encounter. Aurene could’ve excreted infantile rainbows to help the player get up the map for all I care, it’d be infinitely more interesting.
I like most of the LS2 instances much more gameplaywise than LS3 (stealth mission, the boss encounters). But there were many complains about it.
And I have nothing against you liking it. Personally I think making story modes, or putting story in general in raids is a colossal waste of time because how subpar all the story elements are in general.
So some of us are very interested in the new raid wings but we have never had a chance , for our reasons, to actually play them. Everyone is asking for experienced people with lots of li’s and they are just kick us out. Cant see why raids cant be like dungeons.They should have 2 modes, 1 exp and 1 story or if that cant happen why cant we have scaled difficulty??We are missing so much content and its super lame.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first#post6417040
There is a whopper of a discussion going on in that thread and has been for a few months. I’m pretty sure the devs are monitoring ongoing discussion there if you want to add in your thoughts.
ah thank you , i ve been offline for quite a while and didnt see that
A moderator probably needs to go through and merge a bunch of these threads. It would make it easier for new people – like the OP – joining the discussion (something I am happy to see – and expect to see a lot more of moving forward).
To the OP, the most recent discussion would actually be in this thread -
So some of us are very interested in the new raid wings but we have never had a chance , for our reasons, to actually play them. Everyone is asking for experienced people with lots of li’s and they are just kick us out. Cant see why raids cant be like dungeons.They should have 2 modes, 1 exp and 1 story or if that cant happen why cant we have scaled difficulty??We are missing so much content and its super lame.
Won’t happen. Story modes for dungeons are as dead as your story mode for raiding would be.
Too much investment for a story mode when you can get all the story you want from youtube/twitch/wiki.
If you want to raid, go raid.
" we have never had a chance , for our reasons, to actually play them". So u want anet to cater to your specific reasons? Everyone has specific reasons not to play raids wether its time or effort yet people who want to raid do it all the same. Stop making excuses and go raid if u really want it.
everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.
everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.
They choose not to because they do not enjoy how that content is designed in game.
When that is the case, people can either accept it and move on – or they can bring it to the attention of the developers and make the argument for change.
A big reason the forums are here are so that people can talk about – and even fight for – what they would like to see changed.
So it isnt always about simply having the chance to play it. It can just as easily be about letting the developers know when content is unsatisfactory for us and how we would like to see it changed.
After two years, it is very telling that this particular topic and request for change seems to still naturally pop up on the forums on seemingly regular basis. Anet needs to be paying attention to it.
everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.
They choose not to because they do not enjoy how that content is designed in game.
When that is the case, people can either accept it and move on – or they can bring it to the attention of the developers and make the argument for change.
A big reason the forums are here are so that people can talk about – and even fight for – what they would like to see changed.
So it isnt always about simply having the chance to play it. It can just as easily be about letting the developers know when content is unsatisfactory for us and how we would like to see it changed.
After two years, it is very telling that this particular topic and request for change seems to still naturally pop up on the forums on seemingly regular basis. Anet needs to be paying attention to it.
While this is true, and I’m not necessarily accusing you or the OP in this post of doing this, but it is absolutely infuriating the number of people who use the word “can’t” when talking about raid accessibility.
“Can’t” in this context means there is some force 100% outside of your control that is prohibiting you from doing content that you would otherwise do. Think random number generator that kicks you out of the instance indefinitely…The facts are that this simply doesn’t exist. When people use the word “cant”, they really mean, “due to XYZ I have chosen not to attempt to raid”.
The reason this is SO important is because it is very challenging to have a constructive argument with someone who uses the word “can’t”. It is essentially trying to argue that discrimination is okay.
However, imagine if someone presents their argument as "Due to XYZ I have chosen not to raid, yet I would like to for ABC reasons (rewards, story, etc). ANET/community, do you agree/disagree with my arguments for adapting the raiding content so I can meet my ABC goals given my XYZ limitations?
There are benefits on both sides when presenting arguments this way.
The folks who support your argument can also give their opinions, but those who oppose your argument, including ANET, can simply say “I disagree and we won’t be changing the content in that manner at this time (or maybe ever)”. This IS an acceptable answer when you phrase your argument as an active choice, but it is NOT an acceptable answer when you use the word “cant” because of the preconceived discrimination it portrays.
TLDR: you aren’t being discriminated against if ANET doesn’t change the raiding content to meet your specific needs.
(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)
While this is true, and I’m not necessarily accusing you or the OP in this post of doing this, but it is absolutely infuriating the number of people who use the word “can’t” when talking about raid accessibility.
You are right in that we all need to stop talking in absolutes. Most of what we are all (on both sides) is saying is definitely opinion and comes from our individual perspectives, both in game and out.
I will try to stop using words like can’t or anything else that implies an absolute barrier to entry.
But I definitely still see the need for greater accessibility when it comes to raiding – and I believe a story mode of some kind is the best way to do that without watering down the challenging raid modes.
While this is true, and I’m not necessarily accusing you or the OP in this post of doing this, but it is absolutely infuriating the number of people who use the word “can’t” when talking about raid accessibility.
You are right in that we all need to stop talking in absolutes. Most of what we are all (on both sides) is saying is definitely opinion and comes from our individual perspectives, both in game and out.
I will try to stop using words like can’t or anything else that implies an absolute barrier to entry.
But I definitely still see the need for greater accessibility when it comes to raiding – and I believe a story mode of some kind is the best way to do that without watering down the challenging raid modes.
No arguments here. I think you do a great job of presenting your arguments in a clear case. But there is just so much fluff with this “we need a story mode” argument from others that if ANET was simply to say “No we aren’t pursuing it”, it would be as if the world ended.
Over the course of time story mode has become a meme rather than a point of discussion.
Over the course of time story mode has become a meme rather than a point of discussion.
Only to those trying to shut the conversation down.
There are still people willing to have real discussions – on both sides.
It is telling, imo, how many people resort to ridicule and try to belittle people they disagree with rather than enter to any kind of real discussion (not saying that is true of everyone).
People need to realize were not in some kind of contest or war with one another. The goal is adult reasonable discussion about a topic where some disagree.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.
They choose not to because they do not enjoy how that content is designed in game.
When that is the case, people can either accept it and move on – or they can bring it to the attention of the developers and make the argument for change.
At some time group of players did the latter – and thus we’ve got raids. Now they somehow think former should be better. Funny how that works.
everyone has a chance to play anything, you choose not to.
They choose not to because they do not enjoy how that content is designed in game.
When that is the case, people can either accept it and move on – or they can bring it to the attention of the developers and make the argument for change.
At some time group of players did the latter – and thus we’ve got raids. Now they somehow think former should be better. Funny how that works.
Go back and read how hard dungeons were supposed to be before the game came out. That is what raids are. The only viable complaint is needing 10 people over 5. This game was never supposed to be the care bear MMO it became.
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