Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

Has anyone actually raided with the pre-update meta? Is there a significant difference from what you have noticed?

I did all of Wing 2 with a random PUG using the pre-update meta not an organized raid group the night the patch came out. It was slower on Sloth and Matthias but only by 1 minute or so. We still had at least 1 minute left on both.

It is completely possible to beat these raids without the highest DPS comp

NikeEU.7690:

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Fury really shouldn’t be an issue. SoI with 100% boon duration will provide 10s of fury on use. Since you’re using SoI roughly once every 10-12 seconds absolute minimum, that should be 100% uptime.

NikeEU.7690:

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Sounds to me like double rev could actually be a thing then? ie. 2PS + 2Druid + 2Herald + 2Chrono + 2Ele

NikeEU.7690:

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Yes yes, no one in my guild likes rev mate. I’m not hating that much on it. Not rly convinced on that 1.5k tho. Sounds a bit like nemesis math when you take the same amount for each member.

cranos.5913:

Just shows how much you actually know about raid diversity lol. Rly chrono dead? We ran double chrono tonight and DPS is near exactly the same as 4/4/2. Try getting that without quickness lol. Similarly DH is great in this meta, even better than it was in the last one since more alacrity from double chrono.

It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho. The rest is absolutely fine.

LOL, first you write that this person has no clue about raids.

Then you end it with “It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho” when the title of the thread is “raid diversity is now dead”.

I mean thats only 3 out 9 classes but oh well

kdaddy.5431:

cranos.5913:

Just shows how much you actually know about raid diversity lol. Rly chrono dead? We ran double chrono tonight and DPS is near exactly the same as 4/4/2. Try getting that without quickness lol. Similarly DH is great in this meta, even better than it was in the last one since more alacrity from double chrono.

It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho. The rest is absolutely fine.

LOL, first you write that this person has no clue about raids.

Then you end it with “It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho” when the title of the thread is “raid diversity is now dead”.

I mean thats only 3 out 9 classes but oh well

I know it’s not great, and apparently I stand corrected on the rev if Nike’s math is true. But it’s hardly as bad as the OP tries to make it sound. I mean the idea chrono wouldn’t be in a raid squad anymore… pls. And his ideas about “guard never seeing the light of day” while it had 0 nerfs and guilds were heavily using it pre-patch. Come on…

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Yes yes, no one in my guild likes rev mate. I’m not hating that much on it. Not rly convinced on that 1.5k tho. Sounds a bit like nemesis math when you take the same amount for each member.

Think this is important when one member is a Druid and one a Mesmer, will that increase really be 1.5k? But, either way it just needs to be 2k difference to catch up to the Ele right? And then you also get the benefits of the extra might/fury and protection.

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

In theory no, in reality, most of the time yes.

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

I think the main takeaway is that being non-diverse looks to be optimal and the easiest way to complete the fight. That, imo, is a problem.

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

I think the main takeaway is that being non-diverse looks to be optimal and the easiest way to complete the fight. That, imo, is a problem.

Yeah, since People want to be efficent, they go for this Mirror Comp Meta, and this has quite less Variety.

To make sure that more Classes have a Place in the Meta there are quite a few Things that can be done. First is Skill-Split and the second Thing that could be done would be bumping up the 5 Man Buff Cap to 10 Man. This Way you wouldn’t need 2 PS Warriors, 2 Druids or 2 Mesmers to Buff everyone in the Group. And well this would shake up the Meta quite hard. Question is, would the Result be a good and healthy Meta or boring and stale Meta.

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Yes yes, no one in my guild likes rev mate. I’m not hating that much on it. Not rly convinced on that 1.5k tho. Sounds a bit like nemesis math when you take the same amount for each member.

If you don’t like rev guardian is also helpful with might generation and prot.

OK I’ll explain how the theorycraft works. Most everyone uses berserker stats and has the same might and crit chance. So the only difference in how ap adds dps on are % modifiers and coefficients per second. So clearly ap will benefit a power ele more than a condi necro. But for a group of 6 berserker characters it will interact more or less the same for each within a range.

That said it’s easy to test for yourself. Assassin’s presence alcan be toggled on or off at your leisure.

NikeEU.7690:

OK I’ll explain how the theorycraft works. Most everyone uses berserker stats and has the same might and crit chance. So the only difference in how ap adds dps on are % modifiers and coefficients per second. So clearly ap will benefit a power ele more than a condi necro. But for a group of 6 berserker characters it will interact more or less the same for each within a range.

I’d work it differently. 150 Ferocity is 10% crit damage. Considering that everyone is so close to 100% crit chance and Berserker’s gear brings critical damage to around 220% the buff is around 10/220 or around 4.5%.

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

I think the main takeaway is that being non-diverse looks to be optimal and the easiest way to complete the fight. That, imo, is a problem.

I don’t follow that logic. By definition, the optimized solution is easy/fast. How does achieving fast/easy though optimization, which results in non-diversity make it a problem? Players have a choice to decide if that’s how they want to play. So if players can choose to play optimal vs. diverse … where does the problem lie? That you don’t have diversity AND optimal solution? If it’s the problem you’re talking about, it’s here to stay because it’s an insurmountable task to ensure numerous, optimal solutions to raids given the number of combinations of builds and classes available.

Obtena.7952:

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

I think the main takeaway is that being non-diverse looks to be optimal and the easiest way to complete the fight. That, imo, is a problem.

I don’t follow that logic. By definition, the optimized solution is easy/fast. How does achieving fast/easy though optimization, which results in non-diversity make it a problem? Players have a choice to decide if that’s how they want to play. So what part is actually the problem?

The optimized = non-diverse isn’t something that can be changed. If it’s a problem, it’s here to stay.

Only it was pre-patch.

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

NikeEU.7690:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

maybe idk, think I’d rather go for a d/wh ele.

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Yes yes, no one in my guild likes rev mate. I’m not hating that much on it. Not rly convinced on that 1.5k tho. Sounds a bit like nemesis math when you take the same amount for each member.

If you don’t like rev guardian is also helpful with might generation and prot.

OK I’ll explain how the theorycraft works. Most everyone uses berserker stats and has the same might and crit chance. So the only difference in how ap adds dps on are % modifiers and coefficients per second. So clearly ap will benefit a power ele more than a condi necro. But for a group of 6 berserker characters it will interact more or less the same for each within a range.

That said it’s easy to test for yourself. Assassin’s presence alcan be toggled on or off at your leisure.

I stand corrected then. Guess rev is a decent pick in a power subsquad.

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

But instead, they nerfed condi necro 20% and buffed power necro 0%.

I think it’s a shame that, in 10 person content, the optimal composition is two 5-person squads. It should be different than 2 parties.

It was different before. And every class (except engie) had a place in the squad. That’s not really the case anymore.

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Absurdo.8309:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

But instead, they nerfed condi necro 20% and buffed power necro 0%.

I think it’s a shame that, in 10 person content, the optimal composition is two 5-person squads. It should be different than 2 parties.

It was different before. And every class (except engie) had a place in the squad. That’s not really the case anymore.

They could have done more. The jagged horror thing was definitely something that wasn’t intended and I pretty much expected it to go away sooner or later. They could have bumped up condition damage assuming that the unintended effect of the jagged horrors wasn’t putting the condition damage above what they wanted it to be at.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Which is what I’m hoping that they look into with the next elite spec.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t follow that logic. By definition, the optimized solution is easy/fast. How does achieving fast/easy though optimization, which results in non-diversity make it a problem? Players have a choice to decide if that’s how they want to play. So if players can choose to play optimal vs. diverse … where does the problem lie? That you don’t have diversity AND optimal solution? If it’s the problem you’re talking about, it’s here to stay because it’s an insurmountable task to ensure numerous, optimal solutions to raids given the number of combinations of builds and classes available.

We want diversity within a reasonable margin of optimal solution.

See NikeEU’s posts: he suggests that against a small hitbox Ele+Ele and Ele+Rev for 2 DPS spots result in very close DPS. That is a good example of reasonable diversity.

The present state of buff classes works greatly against diversity. PS and Chrono each can buff DPS of group members by around 40%. FORTY percent on FIVE people. That’s beyond any reasonable amount. PS needs to buff 1 DPSer to be better than any DPSer. ONE, Carl! Chrono (having lower personal DPS) needs to buff PS and aforementioned 1 DPSer to warrant a spot over any DPSer. Healing druids are now apparently lower both on personal DPS and buffs than the former 2, and as such their spot may be as late as 5th (meaning that DPS-wise they require 2 DPSers, 1 PS and 1 Chrono to warrant their spot over any DPSer).

Chrono nerf could improve diversity, but it wasn’t big enough for that. Well, their damage buffing capabilities are moved from 1st place to 2nd. Possibly. I’m not even sure on this one.

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Which is what I’m hoping that they look into with the next elite spec.

An elite spec should not be used to fix fundamental issues with a class. You use those to expand on a good base, thus hopefully making the elite spec attractive but not mandatory. That’s something they failed with most classes anyway.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Which is what I’m hoping that they look into with the next elite spec.

An elite spec should not be used to fix fundamental issues with a class. You use those to expand on a good base, thus hopefully making the elite spec attractive but not mandatory. That’s something they failed with most classes anyway.

Which is what they did with some classes. They came Rev a support role. They gave necro a physical damage role. They gave ranger a support role. Elite specs can easily be used to fill gaps that some classes have compared to others.

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Which is what I’m hoping that they look into with the next elite spec.

An elite spec should not be used to fix fundamental issues with a class. You use those to expand on a good base, thus hopefully making the elite spec attractive but not mandatory. That’s something they failed with most classes anyway.

Which is what they did with some classes. They came Rev a support role. They gave necro a physical damage role. They gave ranger a support role. Elite specs can easily be used to fill gaps that some classes have compared to others.

Giving a class a new option/way of playing through an elite spec is completely fine and should be the case. Trying to fix the existing mess of a class with an elite spec instead of fixing the problems at their root is not, neither is making the elite specs so strong that dropping them is rarely ever something to consider.

NikeEU.7690:

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Realistically your druid and chrono aren’t going to be doing much DPS; but even excluding them, Rev DPS + 1.5k on your PS and Ele pushes you up to ~29k which is competitive.

But really, I agree. Revenant is awesome. Unless you’re so experienced at these raids that you can do them in your sleep you should be running Revenants.

Crucially, Revenant is both a forgiving class to play (pretty durable, simple rotation) and it papers over mistakes from literally everyone else in your group. Fury uptime becomes a non-issue; Might gets overcapped easily even if your PS goes down, has to do mechanics, or otherwise makes any mistakes. You gets 100% protection uptime on everyone if needed. Your chrono gets the extra boon duration so it doesn’t have to jank up its gear and otherwise has a much easier life. If needed you can swap on Mallyx for a minimal DPS loss and clear conditions like a pro. Plus the whole time you’re doing A- DPS on a rotation that isn’t very sensitive to play error.

If you have all A+ players and you’re 7-manning content because you know everything that well, or you have a bunch of superstar eles that are getting benchmark DPS rotations in their sleep, then ignore this. Run a ton of eles and let the PS and ranger handle all the buffing and don’t give it a second thought. If your group is struggling at all, I mean if people still die or you occasionally fail a fight, or have eles that don’t have the tightest rotations and cancel their autos sometimes or the like, you should really be running Revenants. It costs you a really trivial amount of DPS and makes everyone’s lives so much easier.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Which is what I’m hoping that they look into with the next elite spec.

An elite spec should not be used to fix fundamental issues with a class. You use those to expand on a good base, thus hopefully making the elite spec attractive but not mandatory. That’s something they failed with most classes anyway.

Which is what they did with some classes. They came Rev a support role. They gave necro a physical damage role. They gave ranger a support role. Elite specs can easily be used to fill gaps that some classes have compared to others.

Giving a class a new option/way of playing through an elite spec is completely fine and should be the case. Trying to fix the existing mess of a class with an elite spec instead of fixing the problems at their root is not, neither is making the elite specs so strong that dropping them is rarely ever something to consider.

You said that “supports in no meaningful way” which was what I was addressing. I even bolded it to let you know that. That’s what an elite spec would provide.

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ayrilana.1396:

Balancing shouldn’t be based on what is or isn’t meta. It should be based on the classes as a whole. There are a lot of players that are so fixated on the optimal builds that they forget those are not the only builds that can be successful. There could even be builds that are only suboptimal by a small degree.

Balance should be based around keeping all the classes on a same level so that it makes sense to pick either of them. This isn’t the case. I mean look at necro, they now had almost a year of being decent picks as condi, now they’re back to the shelves like it was for all the time before HoT-release (a place power necro never left, btw)

Which they could always improve on.

Have you seen the necro track record? It’s a mess. I’m maining this class since basically release and after we saw some light after all this time and they just burn something (admittedly cheesy) down without realizing that without it our dps is so trash there is practically no reason to bring us anymore. No group would willingly bring a class that supports in no meaningful way while also having low dps because it is simply detrimental and increases the risk of wiping. We can be glad if we still get taken at Matthias to handle the conditions.

Which is what I’m hoping that they look into with the next elite spec.

An elite spec should not be used to fix fundamental issues with a class. You use those to expand on a good base, thus hopefully making the elite spec attractive but not mandatory. That’s something they failed with most classes anyway.

Which is what they did with some classes. They came Rev a support role. They gave necro a physical damage role. They gave ranger a support role. Elite specs can easily be used to fill gaps that some classes have compared to others.

Giving a class a new option/way of playing through an elite spec is completely fine and should be the case. Trying to fix the existing mess of a class with an elite spec instead of fixing the problems at their root is not, neither is making the elite specs so strong that dropping them is rarely ever something to consider.

You said that “supports in no meaningful way” which was what I was addressing. I even bolded it to let you know that. That’s what an elite spec would provide.

Ah, apologies in that case. Bit late over here, didn’t notice you bolded out that part.

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

I think the main takeaway is that being non-diverse looks to be optimal and the easiest way to complete the fight. That, imo, is a problem.

I don’t follow that logic. By definition, the optimized solution is easy/fast. How does achieving fast/easy though optimization, which results in non-diversity make it a problem? Players have a choice to decide if that’s how they want to play. So what part is actually the problem?

The optimized = non-diverse isn’t something that can be changed. If it’s a problem, it’s here to stay.

Only it was pre-patch.

Really? Do you want to elaborate because frankly, I don’t know what your referring to.

What is the ‘it’ that was pre-patch?

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t follow that logic. By definition, the optimized solution is easy/fast. How does achieving fast/easy though optimization, which results in non-diversity make it a problem? Players have a choice to decide if that’s how they want to play. So if players can choose to play optimal vs. diverse … where does the problem lie? That you don’t have diversity AND optimal solution? If it’s the problem you’re talking about, it’s here to stay because it’s an insurmountable task to ensure numerous, optimal solutions to raids given the number of combinations of builds and classes available.

We want diversity within a reasonable margin of optimal solution.

How can you claim we didn’t get that? Why is that even relevant? how is that even a quantifiable statement? It’s not.

Look, arguments about how your damage changed are irrelevant … because I’m pretty sure that’s one of the motivating factors in why Anet introduced these changes. I mean, just spiking everyones damage to burst a raid boss with an extended duration of buffs … it’s safe to say that was not part of Anet’s plan and clear how chrono/rev nerfs address that.

it’s ludicrious to think we have less diversity than we did before … it’s worth mentioning again … this is the same nonsense we had with metapushers in dungeons. You didn’t need to run meta in dungeons to be successful, EVER and there is no reason to QQ about dead raid diversity because you don’t need 2 chronos to give everyone buffs to be successful either.

There was a lesson from dungeons and Anet is applying it here. People are being really insincere here … choosing to run specific classes when you don’t need to does not mean Anet killed diversity in raiding. That’s just crazy.

Obtena, what you are not realizing is that all classes should be within reasonable range of each other in terms of efficiency and that there should be enough playroom while still being close enough to the optimal option. This patch gutted a bunch of things or made them worse without really adding many new builds (Well I guess engis are picked more often now and interestingly enough, base condi rangers seem viable? That’s nice, yes.), so there’s a loss of builds, some on classes that didn’t even have many choices to begin with.
Sure, you could still go and clear with 10 necros, but the whole point of balance is to keep classes on a pretty much equal footing, with each class excelling in their specific area and thus making them better on specific encounters.

As for quickness, no, you definitely do not need it. Neither do you need might or fury. But since you have the option to take it and the gain you get from it is so immense, why would you not? That’s basically like having a fully functional car but instead of driving it up a hill, you decide to push it all the way up. People do not want to cripple themselves, neither in real life nor in games and if you think they’re to blame for that, then I’m not quite sure what to think.

cranos.5913:

kdaddy.5431:

cranos.5913:

Just shows how much you actually know about raid diversity lol. Rly chrono dead? We ran double chrono tonight and DPS is near exactly the same as 4/4/2. Try getting that without quickness lol. Similarly DH is great in this meta, even better than it was in the last one since more alacrity from double chrono.

It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho. The rest is absolutely fine.

LOL, first you write that this person has no clue about raids.

Then you end it with “It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho” when the title of the thread is “raid diversity is now dead”.

I mean thats only 3 out 9 classes but oh well

I know it’s not great, and apparently I stand corrected on the rev if Nike’s math is true. But it’s hardly as bad as the OP tries to make it sound. I mean the idea chrono wouldn’t be in a raid squad anymore… pls. And his ideas about “guard never seeing the light of day” while it had 0 nerfs and guilds were heavily using it pre-patch. Come on…

Ohhh no i know, raids are tough and can frustrate people alot. I personally have had to pug all of my kills so i see the build of it.

I mean some groups running the meta comp for each boss to the tee and then right before the patch we had 2 power engys on gors, go figure.

I just find it funny how you argue it isnt as bad as the OP says yet you say yourself 1/3 of the classes are not useful.

Honestly i have found raids to be fun at first figuring out the mechanics and then completely frustrating since its something you have to run again and again to get the guild decorations.

I also dont like the 10 man thing but im rambling and just say its funny when we have to talk about build diversity in this game because its every where.

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

SNIP

The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.

I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.

It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.

No, I’m actually correct because you don’t need a Chrono to stack quickness on 10 players to be successful in raids begin with … Quickness being OPed doesn’t mean you need it for success, so yes, you can raid without it successfully and have a diverse team.

This is the same, incorrect mentality that meta lovers forced on players for dungeons … people didn’t need to play only meta builds to complete dungeon content either.

Aye but dungeons were easy. Believe it or not, raiding with pugs is actually quite the challenge. I for one, don’t believe that a no quickness pug raid will have much success, unless you’re planning to spend 2h on a single boss fight.

IDK if you’re overestimating raiders by looking at qT/DnT vids or underestimating the effect quickness has, but for real, you’re making it sooooooo much more difficult not bringing quickness. You’re pretty much always gonna hit enrage.

That doesn’t change the fact that quickness is not a requirement to complete a raid, so I’m not wrong.

I think the main takeaway is that being non-diverse looks to be optimal and the easiest way to complete the fight. That, imo, is a problem.

I don’t follow that logic. By definition, the optimized solution is easy/fast. How does achieving fast/easy though optimization, which results in non-diversity make it a problem? Players have a choice to decide if that’s how they want to play. So what part is actually the problem?

The optimized = non-diverse isn’t something that can be changed. If it’s a problem, it’s here to stay.

Only it was pre-patch.

Really? Do you want to elaborate because frankly, I don’t know what your referring to.

What is the ‘it’ that was pre-patch?

“Optimized = non-diverse” you say. Pre-patch optimized WAS diverse. The only class that wasn’t rly wanted in a squad was an engi and that only in pugs because it’s hard to trust a pug’s skill level.

Pretty much all classes were within a decent range of each other to the point that it didn’t hurt you or your team no matter what you brought. So your idea that it’s impossible to balance just isn’t correct.

Ensign.2189:

NikeEU.7690:

Dwh ele makes like 28k dps small hit box.

Rev makes 26k dps small hit box.

Rev solves any Might, Fury or Protection issues your team has due to buffing the condi ps and making like 4 might of its own. It let’s your mesmers use scholar runes or run dps food. It buffs each member of the group by about 1.5k dps. 26k + 6k = 32k.

Realistically your druid and chrono aren’t going to be doing much DPS; but even excluding them, Rev DPS + 1.5k on your PS and Ele pushes you up to ~29k which is competitive.

But really, I agree. Revenant is awesome. Unless you’re so experienced at these raids that you can do them in your sleep you should be running Revenants.

Crucially, Revenant is both a forgiving class to play (pretty durable, simple rotation) and it papers over mistakes from literally everyone else in your group. Fury uptime becomes a non-issue; Might gets overcapped easily even if your PS goes down, has to do mechanics, or otherwise makes any mistakes. You gets 100% protection uptime on everyone if needed. Your chrono gets the extra boon duration so it doesn’t have to jank up its gear and otherwise has a much easier life. If needed you can swap on Mallyx for a minimal DPS loss and clear conditions like a pro. Plus the whole time you’re doing A- DPS on a rotation that isn’t very sensitive to play error.

If you have all A+ players and you’re 7-manning content because you know everything that well, or you have a bunch of superstar eles that are getting benchmark DPS rotations in their sleep, then ignore this. Run a ton of eles and let the PS and ranger handle all the buffing and don’t give it a second thought. If your group is struggling at all, I mean if people still die or you occasionally fail a fight, or have eles that don’t have the tightest rotations and cancel their autos sometimes or the like, you should really be running Revenants. It costs you a really trivial amount of DPS and makes everyone’s lives so much easier.

This. Just all of this.

Obtena.7952:

AndyS.5630:

We want diversity within a reasonable margin of optimal solution.

How can you claim we didn’t get that? Why is that even relevant? how is that even a quantifiable statement? It’s not.

Look, arguments about how your damage changed are irrelevant … because I’m pretty sure that’s one of the motivating factors in why Anet introduced these changes. I mean, just spiking everyones damage to burst a raid boss with an extended duration of buffs … it’s safe to say that was not part of Anet’s plan and clear how chrono/rev nerfs address that.

it’s ludicrious to think we have less diversity than we did before … it’s worth mentioning again … this is the same nonsense we had with metapushers in dungeons. You didn’t need to run meta in dungeons to be successful, EVER and there is no reason to QQ about dead raid diversity because you don’t need 2 chronos to give everyone buffs to be successful either.

There was a lesson from dungeons and Anet is applying it here. People are being really insincere here … choosing to run specific classes when you don’t need to does not mean Anet killed diversity in raiding. That’s just crazy.

If you are doing dungeon, difference between 20 minutes and 1 hour run is mostly just time. Now imagine difference between Gorseval that is killed in 5 minutes and 10 minutes. Not only 10 minutes is 3 minutes past enrage (can’t fail dodges any more), but also I doubt there is enough updrafts to delay the fight this much.

Diversity within a reasonable margin is a quantifiable statement. Because DPS is measurable. You can measure all possible compositions. Thus, you can find the best possible composition in the first place. And such you can find compositions that deal at least 95% damage of the best one.

In practice most groups need 2 Chronos, because otherwise most groups won’t have enough DPS to kill the boss.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

AndyS.5630:

We want diversity within a reasonable margin of optimal solution.

How can you claim we didn’t get that? Why is that even relevant? how is that even a quantifiable statement? It’s not.

Look, arguments about how your damage changed are irrelevant … because I’m pretty sure that’s one of the motivating factors in why Anet introduced these changes. I mean, just spiking everyones damage to burst a raid boss with an extended duration of buffs … it’s safe to say that was not part of Anet’s plan and clear how chrono/rev nerfs address that.

it’s ludicrious to think we have less diversity than we did before … it’s worth mentioning again … this is the same nonsense we had with metapushers in dungeons. You didn’t need to run meta in dungeons to be successful, EVER and there is no reason to QQ about dead raid diversity because you don’t need 2 chronos to give everyone buffs to be successful either.

There was a lesson from dungeons and Anet is applying it here. People are being really insincere here … choosing to run specific classes when you don’t need to does not mean Anet killed diversity in raiding. That’s just crazy.

If you are doing dungeon, difference between 20 minutes and 1 hour run is mostly just time. Now imagine difference between Gorseval that is killed in 5 minutes and 10 minutes. Not only 10 minutes is 3 minutes past enrage (can’t fail dodges any more), but also I doubt there is enough updrafts to delay the fight this much.

Diversity within a reasonable margin is a quantifiable statement. Because DPS is measurable. You can measure all possible compositions. Thus, you can find the best possible composition in the first place. And such you can find compositions that deal at least 95% damage of the best one.

In practice most groups need 2 Chronos, because otherwise most groups won’t have enough DPS to kill the boss.

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

AndyS.5630:

NikeEU.7690:

OK I’ll explain how the theorycraft works. Most everyone uses berserker stats and has the same might and crit chance. So the only difference in how ap adds dps on are % modifiers and coefficients per second. So clearly ap will benefit a power ele more than a condi necro. But for a group of 6 berserker characters it will interact more or less the same for each within a range.

I’d work it differently. 150 Ferocity is 10% crit damage. Considering that everyone is so close to 100% crit chance and Berserker’s gear brings critical damage to around 220% the buff is around 10/220 or around 4.5%.

Rather than focus on percentages I think it’s far more productive to deal with nominal dps. I am sure there will be reliable benchmarks for all meta builds that will demonstrate the exact value of AP for every class.

Acording to dekeyz spreadsheet a staff ele with normal raid buffs and no alacrity gains about 1100 from AP. With alacrity its right on about 1500.

I think the flaw of talking in percentages is we need to measure the nominal gap between rev and ele and see if AP closes it. I think it’s extremely likely based on estimates and in game testing that it does and the other rev buffs are icing on the cake.

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

In practice most groups need 2 Chronos, because otherwise most groups won’t have enough DPS to kill the boss.

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

That’s because most groups try to optimize their DPS before even trying and as such don’t reach the enrage timer in the first place. However, at least 80% of enrage cases I’ve participated in have been swift wipes (8-10 still alive people die in like 10 seconds). Those could be kills without hard enrage.

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

And how many non-meta builds are almost as effective as meta builds?.

Edit:

Think of it this way. Players often tout GW1 for its build diversity. GW2 raids would arguably be on the same level as the GW1 elite maps (e.g. DoA, UW). When looking at the meta builds for those elite maps, is every class represented? No. Are there multiple builds for classes? Most often no.

Does this mean that there actually is no build diversity and those saying there are (many of them those who also say there isn’t in GW2) are wrong? No. It just means that those builds are the most efficient and other builds can complete those maps but just not as well. In GW2, there are other builds & team comps that are non-Meta that can also do the same and successfully complete raids.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Mitch.4781:

Zenith.7301:

What you people don’t understand is that these are PvP changes.

They don’t give a kitten about PvE collateral.

Well actually, they were apparently because of issues caused in W vW

So? It’s not like he said sPvP, he said just PvP. Last time I checked, there was PvP in WvW.

@Zenith: Just for the record, everyone realizes they make these changes purely based on PvP and don’t give a **** about PvE. It doesn’t make it okay though, we still got plenty of reasons to be mad.

Welcome to 4+ years of this same crap with a negligent development team that shows no signs of changing their esports obsession at the expense of PvE.

The only changes and inclusions that get put out quick are lockboxes and outfits on the cash shop.

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

That’s only true because of GW2’s communities inability to understand that viable means it’s ok and that optimal does not mean required.

The first step towards making all professions equally important is to remove unique party buffs. Remove banners, spotter, frost spirit, assassin’s presence and all boon sharing capability. You can only buff yourself and not your party, so builds are needed for what they, themselves, do and not how much they buff their allies.

It would lead to much easier to balance game, with the possibility of every build being viable. But it would also be super boring…. with no “unique” features around.

NikeEU.7690:

I think the flaw of talking in percentages is we need to measure the nominal gap between rev and ele and see if AP closes it. I think it’s extremely likely based on estimates and in game testing that it does and the other rev buffs are icing on the cake.

You’re definitely right that too much theorizing is about characters in isolation and not about their impact on a 5 or 10-person team. Not only does it gloss over the importance of party-wide buffs (any party-wide buff – how many people take Static Charge damage into account?) but also over-emphasizes small differences in damage output – if your 5-man subsquad puts out 100k DPS in theory, class comp changes that move that up or down 1k look a lot less relevant.

I think an even bigger issue is the (understandable) focus on peak performance and damage output under ideal conditions. It’s understandable since it’s what we have the tools to look at – we can blast a golem and really optimize our output in that environment – but what actually matters for completing content is average performance in a difficult environment, which is a very different animal. I understand a lot of the arguments against having a real DPS meter in game, but I really wish people had that tool available to understand just how big the gap is between ideal and real situations.

Even if it’s just a self-only tool, it would be immensely useful for players to be able to examine their own performance. It might aid players to stop obsessing over little minutae of an ideal damage rotation and start thinking about damage uptime; about how damage rotations need to be dynamic in the face of random dodges and the use of mechanics; about how big of an effect not getting downed has on completing an encounter.

More to the point, for 99% of the player base the relevant question is ‘what is the most reliable way for me to get across the finish line given where I started’, not ‘what is the theoretically fastest way for me to finish this race if I spend hundreds of hours training for it’. The tools and attitudes we have has everyone prepping for the latter, when you really, really should be training for the former.

Jerus.4350:

That’s only true because of GW2’s communities inability to understand that viable means it’s ok and that optimal does not mean required.

It’s not viable to raid without Might or Quickness considering how big their effect is. It may be viable to swap around some DPS classes, but not dropping buffs.

Indeed the game suffers from the same problems WOW did when it was less than 2 years old. MC and BWL only allowed Mages to be Frost, Patchwerk in Nax was commonly run with like 10 Mages and only 1 Warlock. 10 years after that games can avoid this kind of problems. But no, we have 3 superstars.

Ayrilana.1396:

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

It’s not only those that fail on enrages. It’s those that win by pulling off that last % of damage when the most of the group is already dead. Seen quite a lot of videos of those – and i know that all those groups would have failed if they had even 1% less DPS.

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

It’s not only those that fail on enrages. It’s those that win by pulling off that last % of damage when the most of the group is already dead. Seen quite a lot of videos of those – and i know that all those groups would have failed if they had even 1% less DPS.

Not sure what you’re trying to get at as I never talked about failing on enrages.

I’ll add into that post though. Everyone is using the exact same builds and team compositions that are meta because only meta build are meta. So with all other things the same, what separates groups like qT from an average pug group on TS?

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

It’s not only those that fail on enrages. It’s those that win by pulling off that last % of damage when the most of the group is already dead. Seen quite a lot of videos of those – and i know that all those groups would have failed if they had even 1% less DPS.

Not sure what you’re trying to get at as I never talked about failing on enrages.

I’ll add into that post though. Everyone is using the exact same builds and team compositions that are meta because only meta build are meta. So with all other things the same, what separates groups like qT from an average pug group on TS?

Skill