Guild Wars 2

Broadicea.8294:

Frame by frame I only counted 17 popups for that feedback so it’s not necessarily before the feedback nerf. It’s gotta be just % damage modifiers. I’ve only played mesmer once or twice while meleeing Lupi, does DnT or anyone else have a comparison from Mesmer POV to see what the normal crit numbers are like there?

I don’t believe I have any videos recorded from when we were doing it, and the other Mesmer didn’t ever record as far as I know. The only thing I could think of would be some of Strife’s videos, but I think I only ever hit him for around 26k, give or take. I guess that would be a pretty big difference if he is hitting 10k more than me with each reflection.

No, it’s one attack and not 30-40 attacks :P

I just did some testings and reflected for 29k took out some other weird traits that shouldn’t have any effect and it went to 25k – well, was missing bloodlust stacks on second try too. Well, our party composition was warrior, warrior, ranger and me as mesmer so with 25 stacks might and vuln those 31k reflects seem realistic.

Dub.1273:

No, it’s one attack and not 30-40 attacks :P

I just did some testings and reflected for 29k took out some other weird traits that shouldn’t have any effect and it went to 25k – well, was missing bloodlust stacks on second try too. Well, our party composition was warrior, warrior, ranger and me as mesmer so with 25 stacks might and vuln those 31k reflects seem realistic.

Adding to this, the ranger was pretty much just coincidental. He’s not trying to make an argument that Ranger’s make this possible, just that we went in and did some testing with feed back, and it’s realistic that they could have done their record post-nerf.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

colesy.8490:

Guang, please watch the video.

I just did. Now picture if they had a ranger and engineer in that group. It’d probably be under 40 seconds.

Now I know you’re trolling.

haviz.1340:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Oh so you’re a better player than Obal?

I watched archdiviner video and it seems that almost whole of his party, including him, lacks knowledge about certain game mechanics, probably because they spent too much time on exploiting which he even acknowledges. Improving that part is within reach.

I’m very sad to see what these forums have become. Instead of asking what could have been improved you’re responding with basically ‘whoru?’. Compare your response to obal’s.

Finally, please stop trying to look for sarcasm in my posts.

If you had offered the things which could be improved (not saying there arent I have no idea what video you’re referencing or who was in the group) initially rather than making a troll post designed to insult Obal I might treat you with a bit more respect in return. Try thinking about that.

I’ve never actually tried this since I am usually playing guardian or engie during Lupicus fights, but does Feedback stack on the AOE spray? I know the bubble reflects the damage but not necessarily the projectile, so it could potentially pass through multiple bubbles and trigger multiple reflects if so.

If that was the case you could probably go ranger/warrior/eng/2mesmers and just stack Feedback on the first AOE spray then just burst him down like normal. Shouldn’t be a problem with a ranger/engie combo.

Must be trolling.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’ve never actually tried this since I am usually playing guardian or engie during Lupicus fights, but does Feedback stack on the AOE spray? I know the bubble reflects the damage but not necessarily the projectile, so it could potentially pass through multiple bubbles and trigger multiple reflects if so.

If that was the case you could probably go ranger/warrior/eng/2mesmers and just stack Feedback on the first AOE spray then just burst him down like normal. Shouldn’t be a problem with a ranger/engie combo.

Hurry up and do it though… ah wait nvm you wont.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

If you had offered the things which could be improved (not saying there arent I have no idea what video you’re referencing or who was in the group) initially rather than making a troll post designed to insult Obal I might treat you with a bit more respect in return. Try thinking about that.

Have you got any problem with me? You seem to think I try to troll you or your friends at every occasion but that’s not the case. I didn’t listed anything because this thread is called “Ranger DPS in Dungeons” and I don’t like to derail threads. Secondly, I don’t insult people publicly because that’s rude and against the rules of these forums. First time we ever spoke you were already very aggresive towards me so I don’t really have any idea what’s wrong but I sincerely hope you would stop with that approach.

It must be that you are better player than him.

Anyways, I think Ranger has very good potential. Eventually they will buff Spirits to match Banners and do something to pets. Then simply use environmental weapon of your choice.

I’m not here to ridicule people who present solid ideas w/ evidence to back it up. But I’m also not stupid or wide-eye ideological (believing into giving any idea a chance) to chase any bs idea throwing out even w/ a mathwork program backing it up, let alone some dumb excel statements.
Way before this happens, there were plenty of “scientists” believing the earth is flat and backing it up w/ their “excel” equations carving in stone. Then came Galileo.
Guanglai could be either one of those “scientist” or Galileo. If you ask me, I’m darn sure, the probability of him as a Galileo of GW2 is approaching to zero very rapidly. A ununoctium quality.

Broadicea.8294:

I’ve been infracted twice for things I’ve said to Guang so I’ll leave it at this:

speedclear vid or gtfo

I don’t think he will deliver on that, and so..sadly for him, his build will be disregarded as it has been in the past. I feel for him, I wish ranger and engi and all that jazz were useful too, but at this point in time, they simply aren’t.

on a side note, infractions are sometimes worth it

You got infractions? Anet must love me, i didn’t.

Think you only get infractions if someone reports you. I got an infraction for being slightly hostile towards someone after they outright flamed and insulted me. :P

haviz.1340:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

If you had offered the things which could be improved (not saying there arent I have no idea what video you’re referencing or who was in the group) initially rather than making a troll post designed to insult Obal I might treat you with a bit more respect in return. Try thinking about that.

Have you got any problem with me? You seem to think I try to troll you or your friends at every occasion but that’s not the case. I didn’t listed anything because this thread is called “Ranger DPS in Dungeons” and I don’t like to derail threads. Secondly, I don’t insult people publicly because that’s rude and against the rules of these forums. First time we ever spoke you were already very aggresive towards me so I don’t really have any idea what’s wrong but I sincerely hope you would stop with that approach.

I don’t even know who you are let alone have a problem with you. You were being insulting, just so you are aware, even though you say you do not act that way. Lastly, I don’t think I was ever “aggressive” toward you, though I have no idea what that means to you exactly so maybe I was. My apologies if you ever thought that.

Wethospu.6437:

It must be that you are better player than him.

I don’t particularly care who is a better player than I am, I admire the skills of anyone who is. Lastly, I never claimed to be the best at anything, so your series of bizarre responses for the past few weeks are very puzzling to say the least.

What I dont get is Guang that different people offered you help to even get the classes you would need for your idea and you dont jump on it. Calculations are nice, sure but nothing is more of a proof than an actual video. The only thing you should not do by recording a video (and someone already mentioned it) is to be like: “uh obviously I can’t use this and that now so just imagine blabla”

Since I really like my ranger I can help out if you bring the people together and help testing it. Though as I mentioned earlier at the moment I am on the other side of the argument as you are, but I like to test things

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I don’t particularly care who is a better player than I am, I admire the skills of anyone who is. Lastly, I never claimed to be the best at anything, so your series of bizarre responses for the past few weeks are very puzzling to say the least.

To be honest, I would have actually been very surprised if you (or anyone) were able to figure it out.
I have noticed when I try to discuss things in bigger picture/abstract level I rarely get understood. Probably I’m just poor explaining stuff like that but that doesn’t stop me from trying.

I don’t blame the guy, I wouldn’t of done it either.
Frankly the passive aggressiveness of the whole thing is kind of off-putting.

Almdudler.8621:

What I dont get is Guang that different people offered you help to even get the classes you would need for your idea and you dont jump on it. Calculations are nice, sure but nothing is more of a proof than an actual video. The only thing you should not do by recording a video (and someone already mentioned it) is to be like: “uh obviously I can’t use this and that now so just imagine blabla”

Since I really like my ranger I can help out if you bring the people together and help testing it. Though as I mentioned earlier at the moment I am on the other side of the argument as you are, but I like to test things

I used to make videos to illustrate my point. The problem is that people literally only look at the biggest number that appears at any point in the video. I’ve got like, four videos on my Youtube channel of warriors being outdpsed by three different classes, and the response was pretty much “BUT MY HB DOES 40K”. I had this exact same discussion a while back, of both my ranger and pet hitting between 3-4k per swing in an unbuffed group in CoF (which isn’t even level 80) and what I got in response was a bunch of screencaps of warrior HB numbers.

The problem is that videos still require you to do the exact same thing that everyone here seems to hate, which is simple addition. Why do you think I bring up big numbers so much? You could take a screencap of an engineer hitting a mob 8 times with Grenade Barrage for 1.5k per hit and put that next to a cap of a warrior hitting a mob once for 5k and most people out there would probably think the warrior is dealing more total damage.

I’ve also met people in-game who think the warrior’s entire axe chain is a quarter second long because that’s the activation time listed on the tooltip when you mouse over it. Quite a few, actually. You’d be surprised at how often I hear “My warrior hits 6 times for 4k every quarter second so that’s almost 100k per second.”

It would be funny if these weren’t the people I am forced to party with when not enough of my friends are on for a full team.

OH yes, how rude of me.
I didn’t thank you for typing up your process earlier. That was very enlightening. Thank you, Guang.

The point of video isn’t to look at numbers but the time to finish the dungeon. If your ideal group composition gets close to their times no one could argue against it.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Almdudler.8621:

What I dont get is Guang that different people offered you help to even get the classes you would need for your idea and you dont jump on it. Calculations are nice, sure but nothing is more of a proof than an actual video. The only thing you should not do by recording a video (and someone already mentioned it) is to be like: “uh obviously I can’t use this and that now so just imagine blabla”

Since I really like my ranger I can help out if you bring the people together and help testing it. Though as I mentioned earlier at the moment I am on the other side of the argument as you are, but I like to test things

I used to make videos to illustrate my point. The problem is that people literally only look at the biggest number that appears at any point in the video. I’ve got like, four videos on my Youtube channel of warriors being outdpsed by three different classes, and the response was pretty much “BUT MY HB DOES 40K”. I had this exact same discussion a while back, of both my ranger and pet hitting between 3-4k per swing in an unbuffed group in CoF (which isn’t even level 80) and what I got in response was a bunch of screencaps of warrior HB numbers.

The problem is that videos still require you to do the exact same thing that everyone here seems to hate, which is simple addition. Why do you think I bring up big numbers so much? You could take a screencap of an engineer hitting a mob 8 times with Grenade Barrage for 1.5k per hit and put that next to a cap of a warrior hitting a mob once for 5k and most people out there would probably think the warrior is dealing more total damage.

I’ve also met people in-game who think the warrior’s entire axe chain is a quarter second long because that’s the activation time listed on the tooltip when you mouse over it. Quite a few, actually. You’d be surprised at how often I hear “My warrior hits 6 times for 4k every quarter second so that’s almost 100k per second.”

It would be funny if these weren’t the people I am forced to party with when not enough of my friends are on for a full team.

Actually your videos didn’t show any warriors beeing out dps’ed by you. Your videos showed that your dps (damage per second, really noone has ever been arguing with 100b here) is actually even pretty bad for your guardian. And still way lower than warriors damage. It’s really easy to prove that, just analyze your video like “from point a to point b – in 10 seconds i did 6 hits for 3k and 9 hits for 2k”. In total that comes to 18+18k=36k. 36k in 10 seconds is 3.6k dps. When a warrior now does twice 40k and 4 attacks for 5k each, that totals in 60k in 10 seconds, thus 6k dps.
Your videos show kitten and your calculations are incomplete. End.

Edit: Please dont take theese example numbers serious… i think you even know what dps means but something else must be going on wrong.

Guang: post a video showcasing engineer DPS or quit trolling.

Here, I’ll do it for you since you won’t.

http://youtu.be/EkdtCbTx_E8

As someone who started GW2 as a Ranger and quickly leveled a warrior/mesmer post-actually playing a ranger; Good and saddening post Obal. Rangers need a heavy re-work regarding how they function and their overall PvE dmg output. Here’s to some ArenaNet employees reading this post and relaying it to their design team...

Which level are we at on the pyramid for this thread?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I used to make videos to illustrate my point. The problem is that people literally only look at the biggest number that appears at any point in the video. I’ve got like, four videos on my Youtube channel of warriors being outdpsed by three different classes, and the response was pretty much “BUT MY HB DOES 40K”. I had this exact same discussion a while back, of both my ranger and pet hitting between 3-4k per swing in an unbuffed group in CoF (which isn’t even level 80) and what I got in response was a bunch of screencaps of warrior HB numbers.

Okey, just before I start, I’m definitly not a dedicated theorycrafter and don’t know so much all the calculations for damage and so maybe my analyses is wrong. Even if this video

Strife’s Warrior at the Slave Driver: http://youtu.be/EUhUj1aL0yA

is a bit outdated I think it still reflects the warrior damage (I dont know actual numbers from now, since I only play very passive now)

then I took your videos (I believe this is your channel)
http://youtu.be/i8QQfrcam-0 ranger
and
http://youtu.be/Ac2NGGjjPsU guard

then I watched them frame by frame and typed the hit numbers into my calcuators and stopped time from first hit -> death, results are following:

Strife’s Warrior: 106327/7s —> 15190DPS
Your Ranger: 138978/14s --> 9927DPS
Your Guard: 108945/12s —> 9079DPS

I did not count in the condition damage since they would neutralize each other to a difference of dps that is insignificant in my opinion.

Even if this is just a benchmark on slavedriver the result is pretty obvious:
Its right, ranger and guard can do good dps but warrior can do alot better and also is more suited for more situations while the ranger dps build you use is very situational (e.g. 10%damage only when endurance is full)

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or underline my statement, since I’m not 100% sure about it myself, just my attempt to contribute

Edit: had to add this

On the basis of group buffs, DPS potential, and overall usefulness, at least in PvE, from best to worst:

Engineer
Guardian
Ranger
Warrior
Mesmer
Elementalist
Thief
Necromancer

Note how high ranger is on that list.

Almdudler.8621:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I used to make videos to illustrate my point. The problem is that people literally only look at the biggest number that appears at any point in the video. I’ve got like, four videos on my Youtube channel of warriors being outdpsed by three different classes, and the response was pretty much “BUT MY HB DOES 40K”. I had this exact same discussion a while back, of both my ranger and pet hitting between 3-4k per swing in an unbuffed group in CoF (which isn’t even level 80) and what I got in response was a bunch of screencaps of warrior HB numbers.

Okey, just before I start, I’m definitly not a dedicated theorycrafter and don’t know so much all the calculations for damage and so maybe my analyses is wrong. Even if this video

Strife’s Warrior at the Slave Driver: http://youtu.be/EUhUj1aL0yA

is a bit outdated I think it still reflects the warrior damage (I dont know actual numbers from now, since I only play very passive now)

then I took your videos (I believe this is your channel)
http://youtu.be/i8QQfrcam-0 ranger
and
http://youtu.be/Ac2NGGjjPsU guard

then I watched them frame by frame and typed the hit numbers into my calcuators and stopped time from first hit -> death, results are following:

Strife’s Warrior: 106327/7s —> 15190DPS
Your Ranger: 138978/14s --> 9927DPS
Your Guard: 108945/12s —> 9079DPS

I did not count in the condition damage since they would neutralize each other to a difference of dps that is insignificant in my opinion.

Even if this is just a benchmark on slavedriver the result is pretty obvious:
Its right, ranger and guard can do good dps but warrior can do alot better and also is more suited for more situations while the ranger dps build you use is very situational (e.g. 10%damage only when endurance is full)

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or underline my statement, since I’m not 100% sure about it myself, just my attempt to contribute

Plain and simple, we need more people like you around.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

haviz.1340:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Oh so you’re a better player than Obal?

I watched archdiviner video and it seems that almost whole of his party, including him, lacks knowledge about certain game mechanics, probably because they spent too much time on exploiting which he even acknowledges. Improving that part is within reach.

I’m very sad to see what these forums have become. Instead of asking what could have been improved you’re responding with basically ‘whoru?’. Compare your response to obal’s.

Finally, please stop trying to look for sarcasm in my posts.

If you had offered the things which could be improved (not saying there arent I have no idea what video you’re referencing or who was in the group) initially rather than making a troll post designed to insult Obal I might treat you with a bit more respect in return. Try thinking about that.

He is referring to the final seal Archdiviner fight. I do agree with him to an extent, but I have never seen anyone melee him at any level in a pug and I’ve never seen him been meleed on videos 40+. Honestly, I would like to see it so I can learn how to deal with it since it seems very punishing when he starts doing agony with the hammer and ANET might actually fix it some day and I will have that new challenge to overcome. I tried watching Strife’s video but it was in the 30s and after watching someone tank a hammer hit with agony I stopped watching. I never get to fight it legit since no team pug, guild, or friends list has a desire to fight it legit. I pretty much forced my group to do it since it was the only video I had left for my guide. I really don’t blame them though since the Fractals rewards are so broken and terrible. Fortunately, it is the only thing that is cheesed on our runs other than the first 2 maw tentacles. We had a person who never plays guardian and hasn’t played the game for many months picking up the hammer and a trial to the guild that has never done the 40s so it went pretty well considering that.

Sure there were some improvements that could be made like having the warriors burst in on the dredge bosses with melee throughout the fight (dredge suit one had 4 first timers to 40s dredge), etc but the goal of referencing the videos was just taking normal runs and comparing them to what a group with rangers can do. The purpose of the videos themselves were to show how to play as a guardian in fractals for people that pug or would like to start trying things a bit differently in organized groups and not speed runs so yes there is room for improvement but I really don’t see a lot. I don’t have a dedicated group either since most people quit fractals or the game by the time they get the 40s down. You did come off a bit strong with saying a lot and nothing else and I appreciate that Nike steps up for our guild members. He is a nice guy so I wouldn’t read his posts as having a harsh tone.

Well, this thread is getting a bit off topic and numbers are flying everywhere so I went ahead and updated the OP. I was hoping for some decent rebuttal and evidence that Rangers are as worthwhile to the group as other “good” professions or to further prove they are broken and need fixing. In doing so I was also hoping for some viable ways to play them so people can see rather than having every Ranger in the pugs I join spam nothing but a bow, let there pet aggro everything, let their pet not attack most of the time, jump on rocks/platforms and auto attack, have an allergy to the cliffside hammer , etc. We have plenty to show how guardians, warriors, and mesmers should play but not much about how to play the other classes well like Engineers, Necros, and Rangers.

In my experience the ranger class doesn’t attract the type of player that you can reach with evidence that they’re not contributing as much as they could to their team by using a wrongbow/dead pet setup. I mean the advice I’d give to rangers actually trying to not leech off of their team would be along the lines of:

-use GS or axe/sword/warhorn
-drake/feline pets I guess? Swap and manage F3/passive when necessary
-berserker gear obviously

but a player receptive to that kind of information and why that would be an improvement is probably smart enough to have done the research and realized how much of a drain the ranger usually is on a team, so they probably wouldn’t be bringing it to the dungeon to begin with.

Ranger class attracts the worst players in the game, and they’re the kind that think the participation ribbon you get from the tokens popping up at the end are all that matters to a dungeon run. The same generally holds true for necros and engineers, though I’d take a good engineer over the other 2.

The easiest and most concise advice for how better to contribute to a dungeon run is to reroll away from those classes.

http://youtu.be/Kf8sz9_0vKM

7 times p3, 5 times aoe lifeleech, twice bubble on downed player (because of bug projectiles through feedback/transition projectiles without indication).

obal.3218:

We have plenty to show how guardians, warriors, and mesmers should play but not much about how to play the other classes well like Engineers, Necros, and Rangers.

I tried once fotm 48 with epidemic necro and hgh engy and frankly it was faceroll, 4- manned it without guardian. But rangers offer nothing. No utility, just self-survival. Damage wouldn’t be an issue if anet had gave them some kind of utility (check mesmer, their dps and utility). What purpose has skill like Guard?

For spamming Nature’s Voice, but I personally don’t run 30 NM, nor do I have any healing power for regen.

Wethospu.6437:

It must be that you are better player than him.

Anyways, I think Ranger has very good potential. Eventually they will buff Spirits to match Banners and do something to pets. Then simply use environmental weapon of your choice.

LOL, and having to use environmental weapons instead of your own is “a good place” for a class?

haviz.1340:

obal.3218:

We have plenty to show how guardians, warriors, and mesmers should play but not much about how to play the other classes well like Engineers, Necros, and Rangers.

I tried once fotm 48 with epidemic necro and hgh engy and frankly it was faceroll, 4- manned it without guardian. But rangers offer nothing. No utility, just self-survival. Damage wouldn’t be an issue if anet had gave them some kind of utility (check mesmer, their dps and utility). What purpose has skill like Guard?

Tragically, Guard is a must for them because it grants the pet 10 sec prot, and even with prot it is very difficult to keep pets from the 45 sec death cd penalty in several fights.

Zenith.7301:

Wethospu.6437:

It must be that you are better player than him.

Anyways, I think Ranger has very good potential. Eventually they will buff Spirits to match Banners and do something to pets. Then simply use environmental weapon of your choice.

LOL, and having to use environmental weapons instead of your own is “a good place” for a class?

Doesn’t that actually make a lot of sense for Rangers? They have pet so their weapons are weaker. Replace crappy weapon with an environmental one and do good damage even without the pet.

obal.3218:

He is referring to the final seal Archdiviner fight. I do agree with him to an extent, but I have never seen anyone melee him at any level in a pug and I’ve never seen him been meleed on videos 40+. Honestly, I would like to see it so I can learn how to deal with it since it seems very punishing when he starts doing agony with the hammer and ANET might actually fix it some day and I will have that new challenge to overcome. I tried watching Strife’s video but it was in the 30s and after watching someone tank a hammer hit with agony I stopped watching. I never get to fight it legit since no team pug, guild, or friends list has a desire to fight it legit. I pretty much forced my group to do it since it was the only video I had left for my guide. I really don’t blame them though since the Fractals rewards are so broken and terrible. Fortunately, it is the only thing that is cheesed on our runs other than the first 2 maw tentacles. We had a person who never plays guardian and hasn’t played the game for many months picking up the hammer and a trial to the guild that has never done the 40s so it went pretty well considering that.
—

With some practice it shouldn’t be too bad. It’s like every melee boss out there who doesn’t understand to hit unless you are within “melee-range”. Because all melee weapons can actually hit bit further you can simply back-pedal and keep hitting as long as he is Crippled.

And if you are the only one meleeing, well then it’s really really easy (hardest part is when people randomly enter melee-range and you get by ~270 degrees cleave).

Also I’m not sure if you know his agony mechanic correctly. At phase 2 only his Backbreaker and Nova (white flash) do Agony. Both have clear animations.

Wethospu.6437:

With some practice it shouldn’t be too bad. It’s like every melee boss out there who doesn’t understand to hit unless you are within “melee-range”. Because all melee weapons can actually hit bit further you can simply back-pedal and keep hitting as long as he is Crippled.

And if you are the only one meleeing, well then it’s really really easy.

Lols. I’ll have to give it a try if any of my groups are willing to actually fight it. We do that to the champ shaman but I didn’t think it would work on him.

Wethospu.6437:

Zenith.7301:

Wethospu.6437:

It must be that you are better player than him.

Anyways, I think Ranger has very good potential. Eventually they will buff Spirits to match Banners and do something to pets. Then simply use environmental weapon of your choice.

LOL, and having to use environmental weapons instead of your own is “a good place” for a class?

Doesn’t that actually make a lot of sense for Rangers? They have pet so their weapons are weaker. Replace crappy weapon with an environmental one and do good damage even without the pet.

It doesn’t, because his condition weapons don’t take that hit. A condition based ranger does the same damage regardless of the pet. If they were to make conditions competitive with berserker, the ranger would not suffer as it does now.

The handicap in numbers is only applied to power based weapons for the ranger, and happens to be very reason why in most formats of the game outside dungeons most rangers run conditions instead.

And just from a design perspective what is the kitten point of upgrading your weapons or getting skins if by default you are not intended to use them in favor of using some other class’s static object skin.

And what of the other formats where autoattacking with a banner or lightning hammer is not viable, yet the damage gap between ranger weapons and other players’ weapons remain?

They should have made the ranger pet scale with gear (adopt crit dmg bonus, etc) and made the pet autos for melee pets cleave and implement aoe resistance for the pet. Then the ranger wouldn’t be suffering as it does because 40% of his damage doesn’t scale with berserker stats (as pets get no more than 30% crit dmg bonus).

Wethospu.6437:

With some practice it shouldn’t be too bad. It’s like every melee boss out there who doesn’t understand to hit unless you are within “melee-range”. Because all melee weapons can actually hit bit further you can simply back-pedal and keep hitting as long as he is Crippled.

And if you are the only one meleeing, well then it’s really really easy.

I wasn’t even talking about meleeing him since I can understand it’s rather hard for whole group, especially without guardians. But one day maybe we’ll see inviduals brave enough to achieve that.

Zenith.7301:

They should have made the ranger pet scale with gear (adopt crit dmg bonus, etc) and made the pet autos for melee pets cleave and implement aoe resistance for the pet. Then the ranger wouldn’t be suffering as it does because 40% of his damage doesn’t scale with berserker stats (as pets get no more than 30% crit dmg bonus).

Unless the ranger had a ridiculously high (sustainable) amount of damage over the warrior, it’d still be better to take a warrior no matter what you do to ranger weapons or pets.

FOTM 48 aside,

Contribution = DPS + group might/fury + vuln stacks

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Plain and simple, we need more people like you around.

No, no we don’t. I thought people already learned how to calculate DPS. You don’t take one rotation, cut it off as the last attack ends, divide it by the time and present it as DPS. Just beacuse warrior does in it’s first 7s 15k dps doesn’t represent the fact that for the next 8s when he waits for his cooldowns he does bugger all (exagerating, but you get the gist). And I’m starting to see why Guang doesn’t care to post any videos, because this is what happens.

For people who don’t understand how you compare DPS, here’s a idea for you to boggle your mind with at night, when you dream about warrior supremacy. This is how it’s done in other MMOs, and if you have brain, you should be able to see why. You hit the dummy with your rotation (this is where the gw2 ppl would like to end and present this as their DPS calculations). Then you hit the dummy with your rotation again. If in the meantime, while waiting for your cooldowns, you can do nothing but autoattack, so be it, it’s part of the calculations, you cannot just magically leave that out at he end.
Then you hit the dummy with your rotation again. You continue this for the duration of expected boss fight (noone cares about burst in PvE). In other MMOs, it usually is couple of minutes. For this game, I’m not sure how long does a boss fight take in a proper group (I run with guildies, we don’t care about clear times as long as we have fun). My uneducated guess would be 1m.

THEN, and only THEN, you add up all the damage done, divide it by the time and present it as DPS.

WARNING: You do NOT compare 7s parses to 15s parses, just like you don’t compare 30s parses to 1m parses because that just makes no sense and everyone with common sense should be able to see why.
There is also no reason to present short parses (like 7s/15/20s) as any sort of evidence, because they are irrelevant (in PvE). They don’t consider cooldowns of abilities properly, favour front load and burst classes and do not represent the actual DPS, which goes down significantly right after your rotation is finished and you’re waiting for the next cycle.
That’s why burst clasess are useless in PvE. It’s nice to have 20k DPS in the first 5s of a fight, but if your next 15s you’re doing 3k DPS, you’re a wasted slot.

nemeth.4196:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Plain and simple, we need more people like you around.

Just beacuse warrior does in it’s first 7s 15k dps doesn’t represent the fact that for the next 8s when he waits for his cooldowns he does bugger all (exagerating, but you get the gist)

Oh, which dps skills are actually on cooldown after that time?
You can just axe-autoattack on a warrior and still outdps any guardian/engineer/ranger by FAR.

nemeth.4196:

That’s why burst clasess are useless in PvE.

Oh, really? I’m pretty sure burst is almost everything that matters in PvE.

You calculate the group’s DPS by a known quantity (i.e. 1 Evolved Destroyer) of damage over a known quantity of time (i.e. 1 shield drop). It doesn’t matter what the quantity of time is, but longer is better for sustainability’s sake. As long as you’re consistent between comparisons it doesn’t matter.

There is no encounter in PvE that can be done faster with rangers and engineers in place of warriors. If anyone wants to prove that wrong I’ll salvage my Fused or Fractal Greatsword, your choice.

Dub.1273:

Oh, which dps skills are actually on cooldown after that time?
You can just axe-autoattack on a warrior and still outdps any guardian/engineer/ranger by FAR.

So you’re saying warrior can constantly rotate his dps skills without any downtime for autoattacks? I don’t know, I haven’t played warrior properly, and never put much thought into the class.
And please, I’m not trying to diss warriors in general, I’m just pointing out that that is not how DPS calculation, that hold any water, are done.

Dub.1273:

Oh, really? I’m pretty sure burst is almost everything that matters in PvE.

Burst matters on trash mobs, but they die so fast there is no benefit to kill trash 3s seconds faster but be stuck on a boss 1m longer because your burst classes are useless for half a minute after they did their wombo combo.

Broadicea.8294:

You calculate the group’s DPS by a known quantity (i.e. 1 Evolved Destroyer) of damage over a known quantity of time (i.e. 1 shield drop). It doesn’t matter what the quantity of time is, but longer is better for sustainability’s sake. As long as you’re consistent between comparisons it doesn’t matter.

There is no encounter in PvE that can be done faster with rangers and engineers in place of warriors. If anyone wants to prove that wrong I’ll salvage my Fused or Fractal Greatsword, your choice.

Hardest part of that is finding three Engineers or Rangers

To be fair, Nemeth, you can see where people get that impression.

Unlike, say, WoW where almost every fight has preplanned phases that forces you to accept the consequences for longer cooldowns, there are a smattering of mid boss fights in this game that just let you go from 100 to 0 with little resistance and don’t present enough of a HP sponge obstacle to make up the difference. Hopefully the dungeon revisions address this, and if the living world dungeons are any indication they are.

There are indeed fights in this game that favor burst. And a farming meta, because of it’s nature, can simply choose to farm the path that favors burst most.

And if the Meta was knowingly self enclosed, that would theoretically be the end of it. They’d run slave driver tests for the sake of running better slave drivers, and that would be all well and good. But running a test on slave driver to see how you’d fare on Lupi, or running a test on Lupi to see how well you’d fare on slave driver is kind of a mixed up notion. And it’s mostly because the community doesn’t really have much of an open dialogue about examining the different qualities between fights.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Broadicea.8294:

You calculate the group’s DPS by a known quantity (i.e. 1 Evolved Destroyer) of damage over a known quantity of time (i.e. 1 shield drop). It doesn’t matter what the quantity of time is, but longer is better for sustainability’s sake. As long as you’re consistent between comparisons it doesn’t matter.

There is no encounter in PvE that can be done faster with rangers and engineers in place of warriors. If anyone wants to prove that wrong I’ll salvage my Fused or Fractal Greatsword, your choice.

Hardest part of that is finding three Engineers or Rangers

lol yeah

I have engy and ranger at 80 and would volunteer, but I would need instruction on how to use ranger to maximize dps and engy, well…not even in berserker gear so probably not.

Broadicea.8294:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Broadicea.8294:

You calculate the group’s DPS by a known quantity (i.e. 1 Evolved Destroyer) of damage over a known quantity of time (i.e. 1 shield drop). It doesn’t matter what the quantity of time is, but longer is better for sustainability’s sake. As long as you’re consistent between comparisons it doesn’t matter.

There is no encounter in PvE that can be done faster with rangers and engineers in place of warriors. If anyone wants to prove that wrong I’ll salvage my Fused or Fractal Greatsword, your choice.

Hardest part of that is finding three Engineers or Rangers

lol yeah

I have engy and ranger at 80 and would volunteer as well, but I would need instruction on how to use ranger to maximize dps and engy, well…not even in berserker gear so probably not.

I have an 80 ranger, full zerker with 2x ascended zerker rings, 1x ascended back and exo zerker earrings/ammy. I’m happy to volunteer but I don’t think this guy wants a demonstration.

nemeth.4196:

Then you hit the dummy with your rotation again. You continue this for the duration of expected boss fight (noone cares about burst in PvE). In other MMOs, it usually is couple of minutes. For this game, I’m not sure how long does a boss fight take in a proper group (I run with guildies, we don’t care about clear times as long as we have fun). My uneducated guess would be 1m.

I was guessing someone will reply this, and I quite agree to you, as longer the benchmark of dps testing is as more accurate it is. I just choose the slave driver because it was not a lot of effort compared to long fights to pick out every number, also there were already videos given. Also dont forget that CD is also affecting the ranger utilities and in longer fights he may dodge and loose his 10% dmg etc.

So I’m definitly not saying warrior is doing exactly 1.530170243 more damage than ranger but I still think this small test speaks for itself (also Guang was recording on purpose the slave driver as I suppose, he can’t be wrong at good test objects :P).

nemeth.4196:

Just beacuse warrior does in it’s first 7s 15k dps doesn’t represent the fact that for the next 8s when he waits for his cooldowns he does bugger all (exagerating, but you get the gist). And I’m starting to see why Guang doesn’t care to post any videos, because this is what happens.

Cooldowns for warrior arent that long that you would loose significant time to start a rotation again. And when you use auto-axe in the meanwhile you probably still out-dps other classes.

nemeth.4196:

That’s why burst clasess are useless in PvE. It’s nice to have 20k DPS in the first 5s of a fight, but if your next 15s you’re doing 3k DPS, you’re a wasted slot.

I think there are really alot boss where burst is good.

People actually tried but all we saw from those test is that guangs suggestions were trash. Also, sad to say, you seem to lack of gw2 knowledge to participate any deeper.
You are indeed right that dmg/time=dps isn’t the best solition when min/maxing but it’s at least much better than theorycrafting with incomplete data.

Thing is – just play with a 4 war 1 mes team and compare the damage to a engi, ranger, warrior, guardian, mes group – the difference in damage is extreme, not letting any doubt what is the better setup.

Almdudler.8621:

Strife’s Warrior: 106327/7s —> 15190DPS
Your Ranger: 138978/14s --> 9927DPS

In his defense, Guang’s team had 5-10 vulns stacks and his team had guardian making timewarp not long enough to kill slave driver while Strife’s perma 25 stacks of vulns and did it before timewarp ended.