Guild Wars 2

Which is particulary caused by the slower killing time. If guang has been a warrior the slaver driver would have probably died in timewarp.

nemeth.4196:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Plain and simple, we need more people like you around.

No, no we don’t. I thought people already learned how to calculate DPS. You don’t take one rotation, cut it off as the last attack ends, divide it by the time and present it as DPS. Just beacuse warrior does in it’s first 7s 15k dps doesn’t represent the fact that for the next 8s when he waits for his cooldowns he does bugger all (exagerating, but you get the gist). And I’m starting to see why Guang doesn’t care to post any videos, because this is what happens.

FWIW, the warrior rotation is 10 seconds and endlessly repeatable.

Dub.1273:

Which is particulary caused by the slower killing time. If guang has been a warrior the slaver driver would have probably died in timewarp.

You’re comparing pug with probably a tanky guardian to an organized group playing together longer than 2 minutes.

haviz.1340:

Dub.1273:

Which is particulary caused by the slower killing time. If guang has been a warrior the slaver driver would have probably died in timewarp.

You’re comparing pug with probably a tanky guardian to an organized group playing together longer than 2 minutes.

There are plenty of people suggesting to help do the experiment by bring an organized group and having Guang be the 5th slot with whatever he’s suggesting would improve the time of (in case of CoF) 1M/4W. That’s exactly what happened with Kitsune, and he proved his case which is why LH ele is a widely accepted component in speed groups now.

But Guang isn’t interested in actually proving his claims, which is why he doesn’t take anyone up on those offers.

Also to nemeth, if Group Comp X clears a certain dungeon path in anywhere from 5:40-6:00 and Group Comp Z clears it in 6:10-6:30, we don’t need to be mathmagicians to say that Z is slower.

nemeth.4196:

I see where they get the impression, it just pains me to see these people then come out and say something as stupid as Almdudler did, and then see the community applaud him for it instead of pointing out that it’s utter bollocks.

Hey, I never claimed that my numbers are the best proof, I even wrote that I’m a bit unsure about them, so dont call me stupid. Also, first this whole theorycrafting thing is freaking annoying me, I thought it would be usefull to actually compare the numbers from both theorycrafts.
Secondly, what can I do if Guang wants to proof something and then tries to proof if with slave driver? I gladly take my time if you give me numbers from a longer boss and compare them and I’m pretty sure the results wont differ alot. The numbers maybe differ not that extreme like at slave driver, but you dont have to be a genius to read out the obvious out of a short test.

Broadicea.8294:

There are plenty of people suggesting to help do the experiment by bring an organized group and having Guang be the 5th slot with whatever he’s suggesting would improve the time of (in case of CoF) 1M/4W. That’s exactly what happened with Kitsune, and he proved his case which is why LH ele is a widely accepted component in speed groups now.

But Guang isn’t interested in actually proving his claims, which is why he doesn’t take anyone up on those offers.

That’s rather unfortunate he doesn’t want to do that for whatever reason, but I’m just saying people here shouldn’t do such simple calculations like dividing his damage by time.

Broadicea.8294:

Zenith.7301:

They should have made the ranger pet scale with gear (adopt crit dmg bonus, etc) and made the pet autos for melee pets cleave and implement aoe resistance for the pet. Then the ranger wouldn’t be suffering as it does because 40% of his damage doesn’t scale with berserker stats (as pets get no more than 30% crit dmg bonus).

Unless the ranger had a ridiculously high (sustainable) amount of damage over the warrior, it’d still be better to take a warrior no matter what you do to ranger weapons or pets.

FOTM 48 aside,

Contribution = DPS + group might/fury + vuln stacks

Well, yeah, but that would fix the DPS side of things. Then they can fix the kitten spirits and make the shouts not useless.

haviz.1340:

Broadicea.8294:

There are plenty of people suggesting to help do the experiment by bring an organized group and having Guang be the 5th slot with whatever he’s suggesting would improve the time of (in case of CoF) 1M/4W. That’s exactly what happened with Kitsune, and he proved his case which is why LH ele is a widely accepted component in speed groups now.

But Guang isn’t interested in actually proving his claims, which is why he doesn’t take anyone up on those offers.

That’s rather unfortunate he doesn’t want to do that for whatever reason, but I’m just saying people here shouldn’t do such simple calculations like dividing his damage by time.

I don’t waste my time because people are dumb, exactly like we’re seeing this thread right this instant, and it’s not going to make a difference. There are very easy to ways to test individual DPS contribution, and looking at the overall clear times between two completely different groups isn’t one of them.

Instead all I get is a bunch of inane “LOOK AT MY BIG NUMBERS” posts. This is exactly what I knew would happen, so I’m not actually surprised, but really.

The warrior may do a higher total burst at first but it goes down to being a relatively weak auto-attack (even if you do switch to axe) for a good 5-6 seconds after every HB. Comparing HB > Whirlwind > Eviscerate in Time Warp to a sustained high-damage auto-attack is totally stupid, but of course you don’t get that because LOOK AT THE BIG PRETTY NUMBERS. Let’s also not even count the 12% or so DPS buff to the rest of the party from Spotter and Frost Spirit, because that doesn’t make a big number, and if it doesn’t make a big number it’s obviously not DPS.

What really annoys me, though, is when the more informed players are willing to acknowledge that rangers, guardians, and engineers do in fact give higher DPS than the warrior, but STILL refuse to run with them, simply because it’s easier to put together all-warrior runs. I remember someone in DnT saying that, among others. That is fine if those are their individual circumstances but when otherwise uninformed players twist “warriors are easy to find” into “warriors must be the best class” then we’re going nowhere.

Oh, by the way, is the banners thing a running joke or do people actually think it does more than ranger sword? It’s pretty obvious it doesn’t.

swiftpaw.6397:

Broadicea.8294:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Broadicea.8294:

You calculate the group’s DPS by a known quantity (i.e. 1 Evolved Destroyer) of damage over a known quantity of time (i.e. 1 shield drop). It doesn’t matter what the quantity of time is, but longer is better for sustainability’s sake. As long as you’re consistent between comparisons it doesn’t matter.

There is no encounter in PvE that can be done faster with rangers and engineers in place of warriors. If anyone wants to prove that wrong I’ll salvage my Fused or Fractal Greatsword, your choice.

Hardest part of that is finding three Engineers or Rangers

lol yeah

I have engy and ranger at 80 and would volunteer as well, but I would need instruction on how to use ranger to maximize dps and engy, well…not even in berserker gear so probably not.

I have an 80 ranger, full zerker with 2x ascended zerker rings, 1x ascended back and exo zerker earrings/ammy. I’m happy to volunteer but I don’t think this guy wants a demonstration.

I have a zerker engy and this http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/82395-guide-to-grenades-in-pve/

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t waste my time because people are dumb, exactly like we’re seeing this thread right this instant, and it’s not going to make a difference. There are very easy to ways to test individual DPS contribution, and looking at the overall clear times between two completely different groups isn’t one of them.

Yes, everyone is dumb for wanting proof and not believing you. Hell, they are even volunteering their time and classes to prove it for you! How silly of them!

Just as something to try out for those interested:
gear: zerker, obviously
build: 30/30/5/X
pets: I switch between drake, feline, bear most of the time, sometimes spider for interrupt+range, but rather not that often, maybe once a month ;p
utility skills: quickness, lifereg, frost spirit / passive runspeed / search & rescue
elite skill: spirit or rampage
weapons: longbow + GS/sword+warhorn
rotation: warhorn 4+5 or GS 3+5+2 to close gap, cast frost spirit -> switch to longbow, longbow 3 + 2 + quickness (about at the same time as lb 2), longbow 5, switch back and so on….
Not to forget, pet skill when ready/necessary. Switch pet when it gets low on health or you need other pet skills. Just dont wait til pet completely dead, it’s wasting good dps.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

haviz.1340:

Broadicea.8294:

There are plenty of people suggesting to help do the experiment by bring an organized group and having Guang be the 5th slot with whatever he’s suggesting would improve the time of (in case of CoF) 1M/4W. That’s exactly what happened with Kitsune, and he proved his case which is why LH ele is a widely accepted component in speed groups now.

But Guang isn’t interested in actually proving his claims, which is why he doesn’t take anyone up on those offers.

That’s rather unfortunate he doesn’t want to do that for whatever reason, but I’m just saying people here shouldn’t do such simple calculations like dividing his damage by time.

I don’t waste my time because people are dumb, exactly like we’re seeing this thread right this instant, and it’s not going to make a difference. There are very easy to ways to test individual DPS contribution, and looking at the overall clear times between two completely different groups isn’t one of them.

Instead all I get is a bunch of inane “LOOK AT MY BIG NUMBERS” posts. This is exactly what I knew would happen, so I’m not actually surprised, but really.

The warrior may do a higher total burst at first but it goes down to being a relatively weak auto-attack (even if you do switch to axe) for a good 5-6 seconds after every HB. Comparing HB > Whirlwind > Eviscerate in Time Warp to a sustained high-damage auto-attack is totally stupid, but of course you don’t get that because LOOK AT THE BIG PRETTY NUMBERS. Let’s also not even count the 12% or so DPS buff to the rest of the party from Spotter and Frost Spirit, because that doesn’t make a big number, and if it doesn’t make a big number it’s obviously not DPS.

What really annoys me, though, is when the more informed players are willing to acknowledge that rangers, guardians, and engineers do in fact give higher DPS than the warrior, but STILL refuse to run with them, simply because it’s easier to put together all-warrior runs. I remember someone in DnT saying that, among others. That is fine if those are their individual circumstances but when otherwise uninformed players twist “warriors are easy to find” into “warriors must be the best class” then we’re going nowhere.

Oh, by the way, is the banners thing a running joke or do people actually think it does more than ranger sword? It’s pretty obvious it doesn’t.

I updated the OP and asked for reasonable tests. The only way to really test a Ranger’s worth in dungeons is in a group like I’ve asked for in 3 different threads now. I would also consider an ok test if Weth made a Ranger and did his thing and gave his feedback compared to his warrior . I got 0 replies.

swiftpaw.6397:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t waste my time because people are dumb, exactly like we’re seeing this thread right this instant, and it’s not going to make a difference. There are very easy to ways to test individual DPS contribution, and looking at the overall clear times between two completely different groups isn’t one of them.

Yes, everyone is dumb for wanting proof and not believing you. Hell, they are even volunteering their time and classes to prove it for you! How silly of them!

I guess it’s up to the dark side to try. Dun-Dun-Dun-Dun-Duh-Duh-Dps…….

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

…

The warrior may do a higher total burst at first but it goes down to being a relatively weak auto-attack (even if you do switch to axe) for a good 5-6 seconds after every HB. Comparing HB > Whirlwind > Eviscerate in Time Warp to a sustained high-damage auto-attack is totally stupid, but of course you don’t get that because LOOK AT THE BIG PRETTY NUMBERS. Let’s also not even count the 12% or so DPS buff to the rest of the party from Spotter and Frost Spirit, because that doesn’t make a big number, and if it doesn’t make a big number it’s obviously not DPS.

What really annoys me, though, is when the more informed players are willing to acknowledge that rangers, guardians, and engineers do in fact give higher DPS than the warrior, but STILL refuse to run with them, simply because it’s easier to put together all-warrior runs. I remember someone in DnT saying that, among others. That is fine if those are their individual circumstances but when otherwise uninformed players twist “warriors are easy to find” into “warriors must be the best class” then we’re going nowhere.

Oh, by the way, is the banners thing a running joke or do people actually think it does more than ranger sword? It’s pretty obvious it doesn’t.

The axe auto on my warrior crits for like 2-4k on the first two hits and 8-10 on the last part of it in lvl 80 dungeons, varies with might and vul and my health a little but that’s the normal range I’ve been seeing lately while paying attention, crit chance is like 84+ so I see more crits than non crits most of the time. I’m not looking at the combat log and I’m not calculating the time of the auto, so the calculation is more gut than math. But I’d like to know how a ranger can compare to those numbers, since most rangers I group with do nothing but pew pew with a bow from max range so most of them are just bad players and I curious what a competent ranger could do.

HB might hit for a lot but unless you can pull it off every time and get a ww on something that’s against a wall, the axe will do better, more consistent dps. HB is good for burst but the axe does more dps because of superior auto attack damage and speed. You can move with axe auto which can let you avoid having to dodge at times and continue to dps things. I don’t really even use a gs much anymore other than if I need it for running or an extra dodge somewhere like melee’ing lupi. You really shouldn’t even consider HB unless you’re looking at max burst potential of the class, the dps of a warrior is now in the axe.

I’d like to see what a ranger can really do as I will probably make one eventually. My own experience on ranger was when I was lvl 2 and scaled into a 48 lvl volcanic fractal for a friend’s experiment. I had better damage stats on that scaled ranger than I do on my warrior, something like 98% crit chance and 120 crit damage (didn’t even look at power though) and the axe auto for ranger only crit for a little under 1k, which is pretty underwhelming. Granted I had no traits, but those stats hitting for that little is just absurd.

You are not really comparing a mid-range weapon with a close-range weapon there, are you?

Also, raw stats arent everything

Our silly failed experiment from above
Legendary Imbued Shaman scale 48 vs 1 Guardian and Baby Rangers

obal.3218:

Our silly failed experiment from above
Legendary Imbued Shaman scale 48 vs 1 Guardian and Baby Rangers (Got it to half health)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQjNymLiLw

What… what in the name of dwayna… was that

swiftpaw.6397:

obal.3218:

Our silly failed experiment from above
Legendary Imbued Shaman scale 48 vs 1 Guardian and Baby Rangers (Got it to half health)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQjNymLiLw

What… what in the name of dwayna… was that

A back ache

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

barf

what is your actual side-by-side comparison of ranger/engy/guardian to warrior groups other than your excel sheets

also,

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t waste my time because people are dumb, exactly like we’re seeing this thread right this instant, and it’s not going to make a difference. There are very easy to ways to test individual DPS contribution, and looking at the overall clear times between two completely different groups isn’t one of them.

Why is a 4 warrior/1 mesmer group faster at clearing CoF than one with guards/engies/rangers if not individual DPS contribution? You keep saying that they’re not faster, but do you have any actual video evidence of that?

Also quit strawmanning everyone with this ridiculous “big numbers” argument that no one is making. The only numbers we keep harping on is clear times for dungeons. If you have evidence of E/R/G groups with better clear times than warriors, I’d love to see them.

But you don’t.

Now how about you take 1 guardian, 4 baby warriors and do the same?

Then we at least know which class scales better………

Yasi.9065:

Now how about you take 1 guardian, 4 baby warriors and do the same?

Then we at least know which class scales better………

Between that and doing fractal 48 1-2x nearly every day for 3 months I need a break from inflicting self harm. I’ll admit though, the warhorn was nifty for the shaman bubble.

Broadicea.8294:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

barf

what is your actual side-by-side comparison of ranger/engy/guardian to warrior groups other than your excel sheets

also,

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t waste my time because people are dumb, exactly like we’re seeing this thread right this instant, and it’s not going to make a difference. There are very easy to ways to test individual DPS contribution, and looking at the overall clear times between two completely different groups isn’t one of them.

Why is a 4 warrior/1 mesmer group faster at clearing CoF than one with guards/engies/rangers if not individual DPS contribution? You keep saying that they’re not faster, but do you have any actual video evidence of that?

Also quit strawmanning everyone with this ridiculous “big numbers” argument that no one is making. The only numbers we keep harping on is clear times for dungeons. If you have evidence of E/R/G groups with better clear times than warriors, I’d love to see them.

But you don’t.

Everytime I see his comments about ‘big numbers’ all I see is…

So I got infracted for posting a pic full of facepalms

obal.3218:

obal.3218:

Our silly failed experiment from above
Legendary Imbued Shaman scale 48 vs 1 Guardian and Baby Rangers (Got it to half health)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQjNymLiLw

What… what in the name of dwayna… was that

notice the name of the noob ranger from [LOD]

Wukunlin.8461:

So I got infracted for posting a pic full of facepalms

obal.3218:

obal.3218:

Our silly failed experiment from above
Legendary Imbued Shaman scale 48 vs 1 Guardian and Baby Rangers (Got it to half health)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQjNymLiLw

What… what in the name of dwayna… was that

notice the name of the noob ranger from [LOD]

omg rofl, That moment of pride…

Yasi.9065:

You are not really comparing a mid-range weapon with a close-range weapon there, are you?

Also, raw stats arent everything

It really wasn’t meant as a comparison axe to axe, I was going to post how I felt a scaled warrior with longbow would do more damage but didn’t want to without actually trying it so I left it out. Stats aren’t everything, but they play a large part of it and it was more of a “wow, these stats are crazy high and I hit for…wow that seems low” sort of thing.

If you want, give me your numbers for sword, gs or whatever other melee you feel does ranger the best dps and then we can compare. Note I have Scholar runes on my zerk gear and usually have a 5-10% damager modifier on my axe and usually battle on my mace, so gear appropriately.

Are you serious? My main isnt a ranger but I should just waste about 10-20g so you can get to compare numbers? O_o

How about you level your ranger and then equip it and test it. Its about as ridiculous as you asking someone else to do it…..

If rangers, engies, and guardians do better DPS than warriors then a team of 5 composed of 1 mesmer, 1 warrior, 1 engy, 1 ranger, and 1 guardian should be able to clear whatever dungeon or fractal faster than 1 mesmer, 1 guardian, and 3 warriors.

Waiting on proof of that.

Yasi.9065:

Are you serious? My main isnt a ranger but I should just waste about 10-20g so you can get to compare numbers? O_o

How about you level your ranger and then equip it and test it. Its about as ridiculous as you asking someone else to do it…..

My apologies, I assumed you had a ranger that you could use to compare. That is how I read your comment.

I suppose your comment about not wanting to waste 10-20 gold on gearing your ranger could be read as you thinking there is no way your ranger could match the numbers I gave, but that could also be considered trolling so I’ll stay away from that topic.

Edit: We could probably just compare numbers in the mists just as easily as in dungeons. Maybe I’ll try it sometime.

waxpax.6350:

Yasi.9065:

Are you serious? My main isnt a ranger but I should just waste about 10-20g so you can get to compare numbers? O_o

How about you level your ranger and then equip it and test it. Its about as ridiculous as you asking someone else to do it…..

My apologies, I assumed you had a ranger that you could use to compare. That is how I read your comment.

I suppose your comment about not wanting to waste 10-20 gold on gearing your ranger could be read as you thinking there is no way your ranger could match the numbers I gave, but that could also be considered trolling so I’ll stay away from that topic.

Edit: We could probably just compare numbers in the mists just as easily as in dungeons. Maybe I’ll try it sometime.

You could just watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75xWbWmN4Xc and then watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoSxlE2yCw (can turn off the pesky annotations)

obal.3218:

waxpax.6350:

Yasi.9065:

Are you serious? My main isnt a ranger but I should just waste about 10-20g so you can get to compare numbers? O_o

How about you level your ranger and then equip it and test it. Its about as ridiculous as you asking someone else to do it…..

My apologies, I assumed you had a ranger that you could use to compare. That is how I read your comment.

I suppose your comment about not wanting to waste 10-20 gold on gearing your ranger could be read as you thinking there is no way your ranger could match the numbers I gave, but that could also be considered trolling so I’ll stay away from that topic.

Edit: We could probably just compare numbers in the mists just as easily as in dungeons. Maybe I’ll try it sometime.

You could just watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75xWbWmN4Xc and then watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoSxlE2yCw (can turn off the pesky annotations)

Thanks, obal, that’ll work.

So, because I was anticipating just that waxpax, I spend some time in swamp fractal, lvl16, killing lvl81 fireflies and mosquitos and getting some numbers together.

Sword skill 1 chain:
1. (1/2s) -> about 1.7k (2.7k)
2. (1/4s) -> about 1.7k (2.7k)
3. (3/4s) -> about 2.3k (3.3k)

GS skill 1 chain:
1. (1/2s) -> about 1.9k (2.9k)
2. (1/2s) -> about 1.9k (2.9k)
3. (3/4s) -> about 2.5k (3.5k)

Jaguar hits for about 1k every hit I make… thats the number in brackets.

Gear:
head, hands, 1x ring -> ppt
shoulder, torso, feet, leggins, backpiece, weapons -> zerker
2x accessory, amulett, 1x ring ->cavalier
Upgrades: ruby orbs

Stats:
Power: 2,468
Attack: 3,568
Crit-chance: 48%
Crit-dmg: 96%

As you can see, its no full zerker set Im running, mainly because Im only getting to play ranger in wvw. So there is room for improvement.

Also, this was ONLY skill 1 of melee weapons I use, without warhorn boons. Im not in the mood for more extensive testing, overall dmg using all available utilities and my above mentioned rotation is quite a bit higher.

Just so you get the picture: maul (GS 2) has 1,493 dmg saying in tooltip, whereas GS 1 states 548 on first two attacks. Everything else I leave up to your imagination.

Oh and btw, I made sure to not have more than 10 vuln stacked on mobs at any of those numbers I used to make those average numbers above, and no might stacks except for last in sword chain, there its unavoidable.
So if you compare it to warrior, compare it without any FGJ or GS mightstacking and only with OMM.

=======
Warrior, lvl16 fractal, swamp, same mobs:
axe 1 chain:
1. (1/4s) -> 1.4k
2. -> 2x 1.3k
3. (1 1/2s) -> 2x 1.4k + 1x 3.1k

Stats:
Power: 2,376
Attack: 3,424
Crit-chance: 52%
Crit-dmg: 93%

Tests were done with adrenaline full and GM trait strength. No FGJ, same bloodlust sigil as ranger. OMM on target for about same vuln stacks.

You can all calculate for yourself, I can tell you from testing those two classes after each other, they killed those poor fireflies and mosquitos in about the same time, warrior felt slower, but that could just be because I didnt have to watch out for pet numbers.

=======

Honestly, I dont care if you think your warrior is better, kills faster or whatever. I actually have both, a warrior and a ranger, I play both the same aggressive way with lots of background information and theorycrafting making me a darn good player. I think both are good damage dealer, ranger brings a bit more survival to group, warrior a bit more offensive utilities.
Ranger definitely is more difficult to play, a bit like playing the piano. You have to get a feeling for when to switch weapons, when to use this, when to use pet skills, when to switch out pet and so on. It’s more multi-dimensional, whereas warrior is pretty much straightforward.
Meaning: bad player playing warrior can still do nice dmg, bad player playing ranger makes all ranger look really really bad.

Also using the correct rotation and using all possible synergies makes a lot of a difference as a ranger. Not so much as a warrior in my experience.

That’s as far as Im willing to go to “proof” anything at all. For any more details, please just level your own ranger and do some testing on your own. Or just keep on saying “rangers are BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD”.

FYI, warrior was equipped to about match ranger in stats. Couldnt get both any closer with ranger only having one armor set. And one last thing, to get my average numbers I took 10 attacks and divided by 10. Not up for any empiric testing, as said above, if you think you can do it better… do it better. Im not keeping anyone from trying.

Yasi.9065:

…

Thanks for the numbers. I’m not likely to lvl a ranger for a while but I will probably at some point and it’s nice to have baselines like these.

I will say the one thing that is probably fueling this thread is what you stated, a bad ranger makes the class look really bad, more so than a bad player in other classes. Most rangers I’ve played with are bad players, and a bad ranger is worse than any other class I can think of. It’s gotten me close to putting “no rangers” on my lfg posts but I really don’t want to end up blacklisting a class like that. A friend I know says that ranger attracts bad players, I can’t really say that is true since one of the people I started playing with who was pretty good was a ranger main, but every ranger I find in pugs just seems so worthless, it’s really frustrating.

nemeth.4196:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Plain and simple, we need more people like you around.

No, no we don’t. I thought people already learned how to calculate DPS. You don’t take one rotation, cut it off as the last attack ends, divide it by the time and present it as DPS. Just beacuse warrior does in it’s first 7s 15k dps doesn’t represent the fact that for the next 8s when he waits for his cooldowns he does bugger all (exagerating, but you get the gist). And I’m starting to see why Guang doesn’t care to post any videos, because this is what happens.

For people who don’t understand how you compare DPS, here’s a idea for you to boggle your mind with at night, when you dream about warrior supremacy. This is how it’s done in other MMOs, and if you have brain, you should be able to see why. You hit the dummy with your rotation (this is where the gw2 ppl would like to end and present this as their DPS calculations). Then you hit the dummy with your rotation again. If in the meantime, while waiting for your cooldowns, you can do nothing but autoattack, so be it, it’s part of the calculations, you cannot just magically leave that out at he end.
Then you hit the dummy with your rotation again. You continue this for the duration of expected boss fight (noone cares about burst in PvE). In other MMOs, it usually is couple of minutes. For this game, I’m not sure how long does a boss fight take in a proper group (I run with guildies, we don’t care about clear times as long as we have fun). My uneducated guess would be 1m.

THEN, and only THEN, you add up all the damage done, divide it by the time and present it as DPS.

WARNING: You do NOT compare 7s parses to 15s parses, just like you don’t compare 30s parses to 1m parses because that just makes no sense and everyone with common sense should be able to see why.
There is also no reason to present short parses (like 7s/15/20s) as any sort of evidence, because they are irrelevant (in PvE). They don’t consider cooldowns of abilities properly, favour front load and burst classes and do not represent the actual DPS, which goes down significantly right after your rotation is finished and you’re waiting for the next cycle.
That’s why burst clasess are useless in PvE. It’s nice to have 20k DPS in the first 5s of a fight, but if your next 15s you’re doing 3k DPS, you’re a wasted slot.

You completely missed it, didn’t you? He was polite and was trying to make a contribution to a thread where everyone has turned into a maniac psychopath. I don’t care who can calculate DPS, I don’t care if you can dance with a fishbowl full of pregnant mom breast milk on your head and not spill it on the floor. If you are polite about something where everyone else is not, more people like you would make a big difference and a nice change.

Brazil has somehow mastered the art of being both polite and mean at the same time while also being hilarious. I want to make fun of you somehow man but I can’t. You’re too kitten funny. Lawl.

Chopps.5047:

Brazil has somehow mastered the art of being both polite and mean at the same time while also being hilarious. I want to make fun of you somehow man but I can’t. You’re too kitten funny. Lawl.

You can thank bipolar disorder for that.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Chopps.5047:

Brazil has somehow mastered the art of being both polite and mean at the same time while also being hilarious. I want to make fun of you somehow man but I can’t. You’re too kitten funny. Lawl.

You can thank bipolar disorder for that.

Lols. He’s that kind of guy that will do a whole fractal 48 run dredge and all and give his slot away for free to a guildy at the maw one minute then tell some to go kitten themselves and say stuff about their mom on mumble the next.

obal.3218:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Chopps.5047:

Brazil has somehow mastered the art of being both polite and mean at the same time while also being hilarious. I want to make fun of you somehow man but I can’t. You’re too kitten funny. Lawl.

You can thank bipolar disorder for that.

Lols. He’s that kind of guy that will do a whole fractal 48 run dredge and all and give his slot away for free to a guildy at the maw one minute then tell some to go kitten themselves and say stuff about their mom on mumble the next.

This is so interesting. Reminds me a bit of myself :/

This conversation is getting stupid and redundant, so I’m going to actually talk about ranger strengths now. Not in the context of the ranger vs. warrior HURR CAN I HIT AS BIG A NUMBER AS HB crap that’s going on currently, but actual objective reasons to take a ranger:

Spotter: +150 Precision is worth about +7% crit chance for everyone near you, which translates to about 5% extra damage for the average zerker spec, more if you don’t have all the other precision buffs already piled on.

Frost Spirit: Has a 70% chance to give +10% damage on every hit, so it’s an average of +7% damage on all direct attacks. The Frost Spirit buff reapplies in packets of 5 seconds, so it’s guaranteed to last at least that long; in my experience, usually it lasts 15-20 seconds even if you drop it in melee range of a boss, so you’re still getting 2-3% overall damage boost out of it.

Permafury: Not that many other classes can give permafury. I believe the only other classes that can do it are the ele (using the new fire field trait) and the warrior, using Banner of Discipline. Battle Standard is also an option for boss fights. Regardless, having fury up all the time is a good thing, since it’s usually worth about +15% damage on a zerker. Otherwise, you need at least three warriors or the equivalent with For Great Justice, which like I’ve said before is a pretty big waste of party potential.

A couple of other things:

1) Longbow is actually really good now. 30/25/0/15/0 longbow at max range is worth 2211 base DPS, not counting the pet. That’s base DPS, before might, fury, vuln, etc. and before any other buffs like banners, consumables, etc. Compare that to the sword, which is worth 2294 with a 20/25/0/25/0 spec. In other words, the longbow does almost as much as the 1H sword at max range. Compare that with a warrior, who gets 2871 base DPS with a 30/0/0/10/30 build, and you realize the warrior’s actually only dealing about 30% more than a longbow ranger, which has traditionally been considered to be pretty crap. Put a different way, if you were on top of a wall in WvW shooting a longbow while your pet attacks, you’re actually dealing almost as much as a warrior who is down on the ground in melee range with an axe. Obviously in a dungeon you will still want to use 1H sword so you can share buffs with the other melees, but it is still worth noting.

2) Pets are typically worth about 20% of the ranger’s base DPS, based on my own observations (the tooltip numbers are inaccurate, I think because they use the ranger’s stats instead of the pet’s). A feline or bird will hit about 20% of what a ranger hits, while a moa, drake, or other tankier pet is usually between 10-15%. This is meant to offset the ranger’s relatively lower skill coefficients.

3) A ranger who buffs four warriors by 5% using Spotter is effectively contributing DPS worth 5% of the team’s damage. That means if you’ve got 4 warriors hitting 10k/s with full buffs, the Ranger is contributing an additional 500 damage per warrior on top of his own damage, so you’re breaking even so long the ranger hits more than 8k/s (which any class can do really easily with all buffs). If the ranger is able to maintain Frost Spirit for the entire fight, he’s contributing about 12% additional damage per character, which means he’s adding a damage contribution of 4.8k. That means that he could set the pet to attack and just AFK for two-thirds of the fight and you’d still break even in terms of overall DPS.

4) Shooting people in WvW from 1800 units away for a quarter of their health per shot is hilarious.

Zenith.7301:

Wethospu.6437:

Doesn’t that actually make a lot of sense for Rangers? They have pet so their weapons are weaker. Replace crappy weapon with an environmental one and do good damage even without the pet

It doesn’t, because his condition weapons don’t take that hit. A condition based ranger does the same damage regardless of the pet. If they were to make conditions competitive with berserker, the ranger would not suffer as it does now.

The handicap in numbers is only applied to power based weapons for the ranger, and happens to be very reason why in most formats of the game outside dungeons most rangers run conditions instead.

And just from a design perspective what is the kitten point of upgrading your weapons or getting skins if by default you are not intended to use them in favor of using some other class’s static object skin.

And what of the other formats where autoattacking with a banner or lightning hammer is not viable, yet the damage gap between ranger weapons and other players’ weapons remain?

They should have made the ranger pet scale with gear (adopt crit dmg bonus, etc) and made the pet autos for melee pets cleave and implement aoe resistance for the pet. Then the ranger wouldn’t be suffering as it does because 40% of his damage doesn’t scale with berserker stats (as pets get no more than 30% crit dmg bonus).

And why condition weapons won’t/can’t take a hit? Just make them cause less stacks or less duration.
I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to tell me. But if you remove the gap and give Ranger same damage as Warrior weapons and same support as Warrior support then Ranger would be ridiculously overpowered. The whole concept of pets means that Rangers have weaker weapons. The point I’m trying get across that you can remove this “weakness” with environmental weapons which may cause Rangers to be actually very good (once their support and pets get improved).
It is just a concept though. For example LH-Elementalist will probably suffer a lot if he has to give his other weapon to a Ranger.

obal.3218:

I updated the OP and asked for reasonable tests. The only way to really test a Ranger’s worth in dungeons is in a group like I’ve asked for in 3 different threads now. I would also consider an ok test if Weth made a Ranger and did his thing and gave his feedback compared to his warrior . I got 0 replies.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. I have been leveling my Mesmer for about 3 months now, it’s still level 50. :P

The majority of ranger DPS is in the conditions applied from their weapons. Has this “test” factored that damage in?

I just see screenshots of the numbers that pop up, which are based on direct damage only. Is the added condition damage shown anywhere, including how well it scales when using the other weapon options?

Can we make a poll on how many people got cancer after reading through this thread?

Wethospu.6437:

obal.3218:

I updated the OP and asked for reasonable tests. The only way to really test a Ranger’s worth in dungeons is in a group like I’ve asked for in 3 different threads now. I would also consider an ok test if Weth made a Ranger and did his thing and gave his feedback compared to his warrior . I got 0 replies.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. I have been leveling my Mesmer for about 3 months now, it’s still level 50. :P

I guess you felt it was unfair to have up to 4 of you in your party at once or did you get tired of carrying the other 3?

Kichwas.7152:

The majority of ranger DPS is in the conditions applied from their weapons. Has this “test” factored that damage in?

I just see screenshots of the numbers that pop up, which are based on direct damage only. Is the added condition damage shown anywhere, including how well it scales when using the other weapon options?

The ranger’s condition DPS really isn’t that good. There’s only one class that can put out condition DPS comparable to a berserker’s and that is the engineer. Unfortunately, by design condition damage is going to be worse than direct damage because it only requires investment in one stat, while direct damage requires three. If you could deal massive condition damage without a cap, literally every dungeon party would just be five condition engineers in apothecary gear stacking on each other with heal turrets firing grenades.

The reason the current dungeon meta is actually pretty balanced because, although most people aren’t aware of this (as this thread shows) most classes can actually put out the same DPS as each other in a team environment, since base DPS between classes tends to be pretty close (even a petless ranger, who has the lowest individual base DPS of all classes, still deals about 75% of what the warrior does). A lot of benefits from each individual class also don’t stack (see: banners) or have reduced effectiveness from having multiples (see: guardian symbols) so you are incentivized to diversify. You could, for example, take five warriors and have:

Standard base DPS
Banners
Empower Allies
About 15 stacks of might
About 10 stacks of vuln
Fury

Or you could take a warrior/guardian/engineer/ranger/mesmer combo and have:

Equivalent base DPS
Banners
Empower Allies
25 stacks of might
25 stacks of vuln
Fury
Spotter
Frost Spirit
Permanent protection
Strength in Numbers
Permanent regeneration
Loads of projectile reflects

I think it isn’t too hard to figure out which of those two is better bang for their buck. That applies pretty much to any party composition; honestly, I’d say the only “mandatory” classes are the warrior, ranger, and engineer; the rest have a pretty equal shot at the last two slots in the party. If on the other hand you start buffing up condition damage, the condition damage classes will be so overwhelmingly good that you’ll pretty much only ever want to take engineers, and guardians, warriors, thieves, and necromancers (yes, necros are a pretty bad condition class) will be totally irrelevant.

I think faster clear time is better because it is a real-world application and something people are trying to achieve.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Instead all I get is a bunch of inane “LOOK AT MY BIG NUMBERS” posts. This is exactly what I knew would happen, so I’m not actually surprised, but really.

Would you please show one of them?
I just see two explanations for your behavior left that make sense.

1) You are kittened, but not in any good way.
2) You are crazy/paranoid/silly/unable to read and respond.

I hate trolls because I don’t have the self control not to feed them.

He’s the only blind visionary that there ever was.

How about bosses with AoE, your frost spirit is as good as dead while banners still stand in the ground, also pet is very difficult to keep alive (though its possible)

As I said, to deal good dps with ranger is just a way to situational, at CoE you’ll probably loose your endurance damage boost, frost spirit and pet.

If they boost spirits and make pet dodge when master dodges ranger maybe become more useful one day.
(https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Suggestion-on-spirits)

And that’s situations where the theory is pretty much useless.

After much investigation in this matter I have discovered the problem and can say that these issues won’t be fixed. The problem is that a game developer plays ranger claims to be fotm level 52 playing sword dagger with vit tough cond and power face tanking everything and claims all is well.

In the old days of eq wars had a similar issue, no threat as a tank. A dev saying all is fine cause he had no issues on his toon. Thankfully back then there was player collision. If you stood in front of an object another could not interact with it. An organized game wide warrior transportation lockout by physically blocking every mode of teleport stone broke Sony to their knees and all warriors were given new guaranteed threat tools.

Unfortunately the only remedy I see in gw2 would be for a game wide delete and boycott ranger. I’m sure a net couldn’t ignore that

When a dev plays your toon, you play his way or no way.

It’s cute that he thinks +150 prec to 5 people is enough for a ranger to catch up with his garbage dps.

also, he seems to be suggesting “optimal” is a well rounded and versatile team.

but isn’t optimal and min/maxing supposed to be very focused in accomplishing the fastest and most efficient speed runs?

edit: since i don’t want to necro post

con·text
/?käntekst/
Noun
The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
The parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.

when talking optimal or the meta-game, the context is that no one includes the incapable/incompetent players

Bread.7516:

but isn’t optimal and min/maxing supposed to be very focused in accomplishing the fastest and most efficient speed runs?

Yes, however in the case of the current ‘meta’, it isn’t really unconditionally optimal. Well, I guess it depends on how you define optimal for yourself. The current standard for dungeons works exceptionally when used by players who are capable to run it properly. However, due to the nature of the build(s), it’s less catering to players who are perhaps new to the game or just less competent. For these people, it could be more optimal for them to bring more defense and less offense, as they’ll potentially spend less time wiping due to missing a dodge or w/e.

op·ti·mal

Adjective
Best or most favorable; optimum.