Guild Wars 2

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

Do these people not realize that failure, is a critical part of the learning process ?

No it’s not. Succeeding is an even better part of the learning process. Where did you get your degree in education? I’ve learned far more from my successes than from my failures. “you learn from failure” is just a thing people say to make other people feel better about failing.

Wait are you actually trying to argue that failing isn’t part of the learning process ?

Here’s a video for you, the topic is PvP but all you need to do is remove the “PvP and replace it with Raiding”.

https://youtu.be/hINUhJ2ojA0

Listen to it and try to understand it, without going in with preconceived biases

Probably won’t be able to reason with them as their mind is 100% set. Failing is definitely part of the learning process as it allows you to see what you did wrong and how you can do better in the future. It’s not really learning if you suceed every time.

Ohoni.6057:

Dungeons were hard when they first came out. People didn’t know what to do. But they learned, and dungeons became easy.

So you are saying that the raids are no more difficult to complete than the dungeons? That has not been my experience with them. I spent three hours trying to clear Gorseval last night and didn’t get even halfway through it. I don’t recall ever spending that long on a dungeon boss.

I think you misunderstood my Post. I never said that Raids were or are easy. What I posted was about the comparision that some People use with Dungeons and how hard they were but not considering that back then we knew nearly nothing about the Game and the Mechanics. ( All Combofields, even the Firefields for Might Stacking were considered Trash for example ) and how that Comparison isn’t Legit because we had a different Situation back then.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Selling the game to casuals for 3 years, then suddenly turning a 180 with HoT to sell to more “traditional” MMO customers… you just end up losing both types of gamers.

Why do I see that 180 turning Argument everytime Anet includes something thats a bit more Challenging than the Rest? Or when something new gets introduced?
Seen this Argument at Fractals, Ascended everything, LS1 LS2 Tequatl, Triple Trouble, Removing of the Rezz Rushing Strat etc. Anet must be spinning like Crazy now.

And no, the Game wasn’t selled as a Casual only Game. It was selled as a Casual Friendly Game ( which GW2 still is ) that also has Hardcore Content for the ones who seeks the Challenge. Dungeons Explo Mode were their first Vision of true Challenging Content and you see how well that worked. The Dungeons and other Attempts all had their Share of Problems nd now Anet is creating Raids to include the Challenging Content. And so far the Raid Wings are doing a good Job.

Raids right now are what Explo Dungeons were meant to be.

Everything is going to be ok for everybody. Gaile will surely deliver some good news for us soon because we know the devs really do care about all their players.

See, I told y’all that eventually they were going to merge this into a completely unhelpful superthread of nonsense. That’s just how they roll. It basically translates to “clearly there are a lot of you that care about this, but we don’t, so we’d rather put you into this tiny ghetto where we can more easily ignore you.”

For many Raiders that happens naturally but I guess beating content doesn’t hold value to some players, they are just in it for the end reward.

Exactly, hence the need for different versions of the content for different players.

Just so everyone is aware, Ohoni just said repitition and failure are bad for the learning process..

Here is Ohoni teaching some maths;

“And that was integration by substitution, do 1 question and never try again because if you do more than 1 you’ll damage your understanding of the topic, you should also never attempt a question you don’t already know the answer to or you’ll end up damaging your understanding of the topic too.”

I said that repeated FAILURE is a worse form of learning than repeated SUCCESS. Giving kids a very hard math test, scoring it a failure if they get even one question wrong, and having them do it again and again until eventually they get it right might work eventually, but it’s a far better teaching method to give them a test that they can pass, then another test, and another, until they not only pass it but do so with a perfect score because it builds confidence rather than destroying it, and positive reinforcement gives better results than negative.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I’d rather have those resources put into easy mode raids than into dungeons or Fractals that I won’t be doing. Since I would be the one actually doing the content, shouldn’t my vote count for more?

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

That’s my argument. Let people who want easy mode raids have them, you focus on the content you enjoy playing. Nobody is coming for your raids. . . .unless you keep blocking alternatives, of course.

Rather, they would affect the pace that future raids are released.

Not necessarily. I still assert that they would take very little time to produce, but if they do take more time, those resources should come from other areas, not from the existing raid team. I officially do not support any easy mode raid that would slow down development of the currently planned raiding schedule. Does that satisfy you?

I see easy mode raids as unnecessary. If you want easier content, you have it. Fractals, dungeons, open world.

I see raids as being unnecessary, but some people clearly like them, so I’m fine with that. Just because you see something as unnecessary is completely irrelevant if someone else does see it as necessary to them.

1. Minimal rewards (it should be ‘training’ mode to get people used to the idea of raids, and in no way possible should it let people get raid-exclusive loot).

Nope.

So you can’t tell ANet what to do with the resources it has. Because you don’t have all of the necessary information. So stop saying how fast they can do it or how ANet should allocate their resources.

I can speak in general terms based on information available, it’s their job to work out the specifics, OR to be more open about their projects so that we have more information to work with. It’s unreasonable to say “you can’t talk about anything because we don’t know enough because they don’t tell us enough.”

“Easy mode” might make some non-raiders happy but it would ruin raiding for a majority of the raiding community, whether you agree with it or not.

If that’s true then raiding should not be a thing. End of story. Either learn to play nice with others or be unhappy.

Now, who do you think ArenaNet wants their raid content to appeal to more: raiders or non-raiders?

Whichever leads to more players in total being happy. If they can make 100% of raiders happy, while annoying even 10% of non-raiders, and if raiders only make up 5% of the total players, then that would be a net loss for them.

My 2 cents is having an easier version, with the sole purpose of doing it to experience the story and lore, and providing 0 rewards, would be fine and a good idea.

Agreed, and also it should have the rewards, because otherwise nobody would replay it and it would be a complete waste of resources, designed more to spite players than to make them happy. But you were mostly on the right track.

Ohoni.6057:

See, I told y’all that eventually they were going to merge this into a completely unhelpful superthread of nonsense. That’s just how they roll. It basically translates to “clearly there are a lot of you that care about this, but we don’t, so we’d rather put you into this tiny ghetto where we can more easily ignore you.”

For many Raiders that happens naturally but I guess beating content doesn’t hold value to some players, they are just in it for the end reward.

Exactly, hence the need for different versions of the content for different players.

Just so everyone is aware, Ohoni just said repitition and failure are bad for the learning process..

Here is Ohoni teaching some maths;

“And that was integration by substitution, do 1 question and never try again because if you do more than 1 you’ll damage your understanding of the topic, you should also never attempt a question you don’t already know the answer to or you’ll end up damaging your understanding of the topic too.”

I said that repeated FAILURE is a worse form of learning than repeated SUCCESS. Giving kids a very hard math test, scoring it a failure if they get even one question wrong, and having them do it again and again until eventually they get it right might work eventually, but it’s a far better teaching method to give them a test that they can pass, then another test, and another, until they not only pass it but do so with a perfect score because it builds confidence rather than destroying it, and positive reinforcement gives better results than negative.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I’d rather have those resources put into easy mode raids than into dungeons or Fractals that I won’t be doing. Since I would be the one actually doing the content, shouldn’t my vote count for more?

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

That’s my argument. Let people who want easy mode raids have them, you focus on the content you enjoy playing. Nobody is coming for your raids. . . .unless you keep blocking alternatives, of course.

Rather, they would affect the pace that future raids are released.

Not necessarily. I still assert that they would take very little time to produce, but if they do take more time, those resources should come from other areas, not from the existing raid team. I officially do not support any easy mode raid that would slow down development of the currently planned raiding schedule. Does that satisfy you?

I see easy mode raids as unnecessary. If you want easier content, you have it. Fractals, dungeons, open world.

I see raids as being unnecessary, but some people clearly like them, so I’m fine with that. Just because you see something as unnecessary is completely irrelevant if someone else does see it as necessary to them.

1. Minimal rewards (it should be ‘training’ mode to get people used to the idea of raids, and in no way possible should it let people get raid-exclusive loot).

Nope.

So you can’t tell ANet what to do with the resources it has. Because you don’t have all of the necessary information. So stop saying how fast they can do it or how ANet should allocate their resources.

I can speak in general terms based on information available, it’s their job to work out the specifics, OR to be more open about their projects so that we have more information to work with. It’s unreasonable to say “you can’t talk about anything because we don’t know enough because they don’t tell us enough.”

“Easy mode” might make some non-raiders happy but it would ruin raiding for a majority of the raiding community, whether you agree with it or not.

If that’s true then raiding should not be a thing. End of story. Either learn to play nice with others or be unhappy.

Now, who do you think ArenaNet wants their raid content to appeal to more: raiders or non-raiders?

Whichever leads to more players in total being happy. If they can make 100% of raiders happy, while annoying even 10% of non-raiders, and if raiders only make up 5% of the total players, then that would be a net loss for them.

My 2 cents is having an easier version, with the sole purpose of doing it to experience the story and lore, and providing 0 rewards, would be fine and a good idea.

Agreed, and also it should have the rewards, because otherwise nobody would replay it and it would be a complete waste of resources, designed more to spite players than to make them happy. But you were mostly on the right track.

You weren’t talking in general terms though.

You said it would take them a few hours. That’s not general.

You said if if it would take them more than a few days they should move people in from other departments. That’s not general.

That’s specific.

Nope.

Thankfully, you’re not in charge of Anet, so it really doesn’t matter what you want for the game. Raids are here to stay. You can either adapt, or continue to moan. Nobody will actually care, because y’know, we’re playing the game. Adapting. Unlike you, it seems.

I can speak in general terms based on information available, it’s their job to work out the specifics, OR to be more open about their projects so that we have more information to work with. It’s unreasonable to say “you can’t talk about anything because we don’t know enough because they don’t tell us enough.”

Seriously, does someone have to link that dev quote every time you say this? You are not at liberty to make an educated guess at what Anet can or cannot do unless you are in charge of developing the game itself.

You want your legendary armor, work for it. There are people who have offered to take you on raids, and you’ve probably killed VG at least. You may not like it, but hey, if you’re playing PvP for the legendary backpack, you can do this.

Or don’t. Nobody’s telling you how you should play the game, unless you insist on telling us how to do so.

Sabetha.4910:

Nope.

Thankfully, you’re not in charge of Anet, so it really doesn’t matter what you want for the game.

Thankfully, neither are you.

Sabetha.4910:

Raids are here to stay.

At some time people were saying that about dungeons. These got axed anyway (and remember, that they were far more popular at that time than raids are now).

Sabetha.4910:

You can either adapt, or continue to moan. Nobody will actually care, because y’know, we’re playing the game. Adapting. Unlike you, it seems.

Just like Raiders adapted to the game with no raids in, instead of “moaning” and asking for Anet to implement raids?
Oh wait…

Sabetha.4910:

Or don’t. Nobody’s telling you how you should play the game, unless you insist on telling us how to do so.

Nobody’s telling you how to play the game (yet). The content this thread is about is not for you (clearly). And yet it’s you that keep insisting that we shouldn’t have it.

So please, go ahead, and apply your own advice to yourself first.

You weren’t talking in general terms though.

You said it would take them a few hours. That’s not general.

No, that was an estimate based on the scope of the problem, the minimal basic changes necessary, and how long it’s taken them to accomplish similar feats. That much I feel is a fair specific estimate. I could not, however, tell you which specific employees would be best assigned to the task, without knowing exactly which employees would be capable of it, and to what task each of them is currently assigned. All I can say is that if my assumptions are correct on the time needed, then pretty much anyone capable of it could do so without upsetting the timetables of any projects more than a few weeks out, and that if my assumptions on the time needed are wrong and it would take more than a few days of work, then it might be more difficult to borrow that time from other projects, but it would again be impossible to guess the specific employees needed or the projects to which they would be attached, without knowing what projects were currently underway, and how their schedules are currently progressing.

Being unable to guess at specifics does not make it a reasonable goal to pursue. ANet knows these facts, and can determine the best specific course of action if they decide to pursue that goal.

You said if if it would take them more than a few days they should move people in from other departments. That’s not general.

That’s specific.

Your confusion might come from a misunderstanding of the terms “general” vs. “specific.” " if if it would take them more than a few days they should move people in from other departments" would be a general statement. The specific version would be, say, “if it would take them 27 man hours to produce then they should move Jim the Fish off of the Legendary Crafting overhaul, Susan K off of the new WvW map integration, and Alfredo Q off of the Cantha intro sequence for two business days, they can get it done and then go back to their projects.” That would be specific, but of course it would be impossible for an outsider to produce an accurate answer like that, since we lack the basic data necessary.

Seriously, does someone have to link that dev quote every time you say this? You are not at liberty to make an educated guess at what Anet can or cannot do unless you are in charge of developing the game itself.

No, of course I can. That dev quote doesn’t remove anyone’s right to speculate, that’s an inalienable right. All it said of any merit was that Gaile didn’t know herself at the time and was going to find out for us. In the meantime, all we can do is speculate.

Astralporing.1957:

Sabetha.4910:

Nope.

Thankfully, you’re not in charge of Anet, so it really doesn’t matter what you want for the game.

Thankfully, neither are you.

Sabetha.4910:

Raids are here to stay.

At some time people were saying that about dungeons. These got axed anyway (and remember, that they were far more popular at that time than raids are now).

Sabetha.4910:

You can either adapt, or continue to moan. Nobody will actually care, because y’know, we’re playing the game. Adapting. Unlike you, it seems.

Just like Raiders adapted to the game with no raids in, instead of “moaning” and asking for Anet to implement raids?
Oh wait…

Sabetha.4910:

Or don’t. Nobody’s telling you how you should play the game, unless you insist on telling us how to do so.

Nobody’s telling you how to play the game (yet). The content this thread is about is not for you (clearly). And yet it’s you that keep insisting that we shouldn’t have it.

So please, go ahead, and apply your own advice to yourself first.

Dungeons were more popular? One has had three years, the other has had half a year. Please compare a proportionate sample size.

Also, I started playing a year before raids were even a concept. I’m relatively new to the concept of raiding — I’ve never done it until Spirit Vale came out. Your accusation of my ‘moaning for raids’ holds little water here.

Guess what happened? I struggled a lot with VG at first. I had my moments of frustration. Then I learned to adapt. I made new classes to pug raids. I looked for raid guilds, and I’m currently in a nice, casual-frame-of-mind one.

Now I’ve killed all three bosses. I’m nowhere near being a super-experienced raider, but neither am I complaining about there being hardcore content for players.

I’m not telling Anet to make faceroll content harder, or to make GW2 for the elite players in general. But you people keep complaining about raids and insisting that you deserve an equal share by doing less. I do not agree with this. Is this wrong? I have already said in earlier comments that an ‘easy mode’ is fine, as long as the rewards are minimal, or non-existent.

Raids exist to challenge the player. If the player refuses to be challenged, they do not deserve the reward for it. Simple as that.

I don’t go into WvW crying about not having a Mistforged weapon or PvP about not being able to get the Ascension without doing PvP.

So please, keep your high horse to yourself. At least we’re honest about our intentions, unlike some here.

Ohoni.6057:

You weren’t talking in general terms though.

You said it would take them a few hours. That’s not general.

No, that was an estimate based on the scope of the problem, the minimal basic changes necessary, and how long it’s taken them to accomplish similar feats. That much I feel is a fair specific estimate. I could not, however, tell you which specific employees would be best assigned to the task, without knowing exactly which employees would be capable of it, and to what task each of them is currently assigned. All I can say is that if my assumptions are correct on the time needed, then pretty much anyone capable of it could do so without upsetting the timetables of any projects more than a few weeks out, and that if my assumptions on the time needed are wrong and it would take more than a few days of work, then it might be more difficult to borrow that time from other projects, but it would again be impossible to guess the specific employees needed or the projects to which they would be attached, without knowing what projects were currently underway, and how their schedules are currently progressing.

Being unable to guess at specifics does not make it a reasonable goal to pursue. ANet knows these facts, and can determine the best specific course of action if they decide to pursue that goal.

You said if if it would take them more than a few days they should move people in from other departments. That’s not general.

That’s specific.

Your confusion might come from a misunderstanding of the terms “general” vs. “specific.” " if if it would take them more than a few days they should move people in from other departments" would be a general statement. The specific version would be, say, “if it would take them 27 man hours to produce then they should move Jim the Fish off of the Legendary Crafting overhaul, Susan K off of the new WvW map integration, and Alfredo Q off of the Cantha intro sequence for two business days, they can get it done and then go back to their projects.” That would be specific, but of course it would be impossible for an outsider to produce an accurate answer like that, since we lack the basic data necessary.

Seriously, does someone have to link that dev quote every time you say this? You are not at liberty to make an educated guess at what Anet can or cannot do unless you are in charge of developing the game itself.

No, of course I can. That dev quote doesn’t remove anyone’s right to speculate, that’s an inalienable right. All it said of any merit was that Gaile didn’t know herself at the time and was going to find out for us. In the meantime, all we can do is speculate.

Oh, so now you know how long it took them do other tasks? Please tell me where you heard them say how long it took and how many employees they had working on it. Link the threads or posts or tweets. I’d love to read where you’ve learned how long it took them to work on previous projects.

And your statements were not general. They weren’t super specific. But they were still specific.

Ohoni.6057:

No, that was an estimate

No, it is a wild guess without foundation. Such is not an estimate.

Guess what happened? I struggled a lot with VG at first. I had my moments of frustration. Then I learned to adapt. I made new classes to pug raids. I looked for raid guilds, and I’m currently in a nice, casual-frame-of-mind one.

That’s great for you, honestly, just so long as you don’t try to then project that experience onto others, to assume that if only other people would try what you did, they would grow to enjoy it just as much. That simply isn’t the case AT ALL. If you’re having fun with the current raids then I recommend you keep playing them, but for people who will not enjoy the current raids like you do, those players should have an alternative that they would enjoy as much as you enjoy the current raids.

But you people keep complaining about raids and insisting that you deserve an equal share by doing less.

I’ve never once heard someone ask for an equal share by doing less. All I’ve heard is people asking for a lesser share for doing less.

Think of it this way, being a doctor is hard. You have to spend years extra in school learning to doctor, and it takes a lot of skill to achieve. Being a plumber is easier. It takes a lot less practice and a lot less native skill. Being a doctor, you earn more money, but being a plumber doesn’t mean you earn “plumber funbucks,” it means you earn dollars, exactly the same as the doctor, just less of them. If a plumber wants to buy a $200K sports car, he doesn’t get told “sorry, you’re just a plumber, you can only buy this car with Doctor-bucks, which only doctors can earn in any quantity.” No, if they save up, they can buy whatever they like. It might take them longer, but they still have that option.

That’s all that’s being asked here, an easier, but significantly slower path to the same goals.

I don’t go into WvW crying about not having a Mistforged weapon or PvP about not being able to get the Ascension without doing PvP.

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

So please, keep your high horse to yourself. At least we’re honest about our intentions, unlike some here.

I’m always completely honest about my intentions, it’s just those intentions really bother some people so they choose to portray me as having different ones instead.

Oh, so now you know how long it took them do other tasks?

Some. The Shatterer, for example, they have claimed was started only after complaints started about the Legendary crafting. So either they are lying about that, which I doubt, or they did all that stuff in about a month or two. Also, over the past three years there have been some fairly significant flaws in a given patch, and they have turned off, turned on, or significantly altered various factors within the first few hours, or in some cases days. Based on these and other factors, I have a decent guesstimate as to their capabilities when they are motivated to get something done.

Again, it’s possible I’m completely wrong on that, and if so, they can tell us that, but based on what we know, I still believe it’s a reasonable assumption to make.

No, it is a wild guess without foundation. Such is not an estimate.

It was a wild guess with foundation, ie an estimate.

Ohoni.6057:

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

It’s not a strawman when it’s your actual position.

since i am a raider rly commit to raids and harder content, lets take a look on the other side.

i want a hardmode option in the open world, like in guild wars 1.
so, nerf all rewards from the open world since it is faceroll and requires nearly no skill at all and you only get better rewards when you actually play in hardmode.

…now much ppl would rage?

raids are fine as they are, there is content for everyone. there is no need for easy modes, since raids are already not that hardcore as most players think they are.

just look at 6 man videos from all 3 bosses of the first wing. yes, you actually have to be really skilled to do that. but nerverless it is possible, so they aren’t that hard to beginn with.
also look at the 40 mins valeguard kill.
…or that the second raid got cleared after 1 day by a guild like salt (not saying they are bad, keep that in mind).

there are players out there, clicking skills, never set up a decent keyboard setting for keys, dodging with pressing double w and complaining that they can’t react fast enough, never bothered looking into their build and tweak it or get a build in wich benefits the whole group.

i don’t think that people wich play like this should get an easy mode just because they don’t try to get into it.

i have raided much in many different groups and with ppl wich where in there 20’s to others wich where older than 50…and i can say one thing, nothing, absolutly nothing holds you back from beating it.

most ppl are just too lazy to commit. if you commit, you can do it without problems.
and with commiting i don’t only mean that you should craft your gear and invest time into your charakter, i mean also that you commit to the raid. you want to learn the mechanics and you want to explore how to beat the boss. it depends on how fast you and the group learns it…sometimes you need more time then others.
and there are people out there wich do that and you just have to reach out to these people.

just being a forum warrior and posting much stuff doesn’t really mean that most other people think like you…that there should be a easy mode just for it.

either you commit to raid and you can do it, or you don’t want to and stay away from the content and just look videos from it, like the rest does it to see it.
you shouldn’t feel bad if you cant raid, you should just accept it that this is no content for you.

the content will get easier with the time anyways…be it through exp gamers or like getting new specs for classes.

…and if there should really be an easy mode just for the sake of the story, then there should be absolutly no reward for it. no legendary stuff, no gold, no shards…just nothing.
because you are here for the story right. thats rewarding enough.

Ohoni.6057:

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

It’s not a strawman when it’s your actual position.

Yes, that’s what I said. If Sabetha is actually bothered that you need to WvW for Mistforged, or PvP for Ascension, then she should be making the case that they should be available elsewhere, and I would support her 120% in that effort. If she doesn’t actually care about those things, and just raises them as reason to NOT expand rewards in other areas of the game, then it’s just raising the point to shoot it down.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, that’s what I said. If Sabetha is actually bothered that you need to WvW for Mistforged, or PvP for Ascension, then she should be making the case that they should be available elsewhere, and I would support her 120% in that effort. If she doesn’t actually care about those things, and just raises them as reason to NOT expand rewards in other areas of the game, then it’s just raising the point to shoot it down.

Speaking of strawmen, you are misinterpreting what Sabetha said, and you know it.

Ohoni.6057:

It was a wild guess with foundation, ie an estimate.

My cat is grey. That gives me foundation to estimate the number of grains of sand in California beaches as nine.

Inventing your foundation whole cloth does not make a wild guess an estimate.

I don’t have a cat.

i want a hardmode option in the open world, like in guild wars 1.
so, nerf all rewards from the open world since it is faceroll and requires nearly no skill at all and you only get better rewards when you actually play in hardmode.

…now much ppl would rage?

Probably quite a bit, since you’re doing two things wrong here. First, you’re nerfing existing content. Nobody is talking about nerfing or reducing the existing raids in any way. Second, you’re promoting a change that would be supported by only a tiny fraction of the population, and hated by the overwhelming majority, which is the exact opposite of the sort of raid changes being proposed here. If there were as few players happy with the current open world difficulty as are happy with the current raid difficulty, then you might have a more rational position here.

most ppl are just too lazy to commit. if you commit, you can do it without problems.

But if players don’t want to “commit,” if they have no interest in “committing,” then why should they have to? Because you want them to? Why should they care what you want them to do? If they do not have added fun by “committing,” then why should they want to? Why shouldn’t they instead want to have an easier version of the content, that does not require them to “commit” in a way that they have no interest in doing? There is no inherent virtue in “committing,” it is just playing in the way you prefer to play, but not necessarily the way that others would prefer to play. If you want to commit, commit. If others don’t want to, they should have other options.

…and if there should really be an easy mode just for the sake of the story, then there should be absolutly no reward for it. no legendary stuff, no gold, no shards…just nothing.

Because clearly you deserve rewards for playing how you enjoy playing, but nobody else deserves rewards for playing how they enjoy playing. . .

if they have no interest in raids, they don’t have to play it and they can’t get any rewards from that content, easy as that.

if somebody doesn’t want to raid, he actually even don’t want some easy mode, since he has no interrest in that content anyways. why should he bother? lore can be looked up in a cleared instance and from videos, since the bossfights aren’t that much filled with lore.

its not about enjoying how i or others play…its about the content itself. there is content x in wich you have to do y. no need to get 100 modes so everyone is satisfied.
you either do it or you don’t. if you don’t do it, naturally, there are no rewards.
thats how it works.

the only thing i see here, is somebody who wants his legendary armor and don’t want to do something for it, because its not his game mode.
it was actually even annouced before hot, that this will be in raids, and only there, so why did you buy hot beforehand if you know its there and you won’t be raiding?

do i cry arround that i can’t craft hope because i don’T like the prec hunt and i don’t like farming ds? no you don’t. and i would rly like to have hope.
at some point i will have to commit to get it…no easy way arround bro.

Ohoni.6057:

It basically translates to “clearly there are a lot of you that care about this, but we don’t, so we’d rather put you into this tiny ghetto where we can more easily ignore you.”

I wouldn’t call it “a lot of you”, it’s just a couple of very vocal posters on these forums like yourself.

Actually, why not an easy mode, if it’s not time consumming for developpers, so that players can learn raid mechanisms. But, ofc, without rewards toward the legendary armor.

I wouldn’t call it “a lot of you”, it’s just a couple of very vocal posters on these forums like yourself.

If that were true they wouldn’t have to ghetto those voices into a single thread.

Actually, why not an easy mode, if it’s not time consumming for developpers, so that players can learn raid mechanisms. But, ofc, without rewards toward the legendary armor.

No, with the rewards, otherwise people would just do it once and have nothing left to do. With rewards you would get repeatable content out of it that players could do every week. Doing it with no rewards would not likely be worth the effort.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve never once heard someone ask for an equal share by doing less. All I’ve heard is people asking for a lesser share for doing less.

Think of it this way, being a doctor is hard. You have to spend years extra in school learning to doctor, and it takes a lot of skill to achieve. Being a plumber is easier. It takes a lot less practice and a lot less native skill. Being a doctor, you earn more money, but being a plumber doesn’t mean you earn “plumber funbucks,” it means you earn dollars, exactly the same as the doctor, just less of them. If a plumber wants to buy a $200K sports car, he doesn’t get told “sorry, you’re just a plumber, you can only buy this car with Doctor-bucks, which only doctors can earn in any quantity.” No, if they save up, they can buy whatever they like. It might take them longer, but they still have that option.

That’s all that’s being asked here, an easier, but significantly slower path to the same goals.

I don’t go into WvW crying about not having a Mistforged weapon or PvP about not being able to get the Ascension without doing PvP.

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

So please, keep your high horse to yourself. At least we’re honest about our intentions, unlike some here.

I’m always completely honest about my intentions, it’s just those intentions really bother some people so they choose to portray me as having different ones instead.

That’s a horrible analogy. No, what you’re asking for is very different. You do realize that the legendary armor precursor is a collection quest, and not something you ‘buy’?

Instead of asking for the ability to buy things with ‘Doctor-bucks’, you’re asking for the right to be called a doctor and be recognized as such, despite being a plumber. You’re asking for the ability to be recognized for something only the most dedicated doctors will be able to get, by doing half the effort. It doesn’t matter if it takes twice as long, you should not be able to get it without learning how to be a doctor first.

That’s like saying a plumber should be allowed to do open-heart surgery, only slower because ‘they still have that option’. It. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni.6057:

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

It’s not a strawman when it’s your actual position.

Yes, that’s what I said. If Sabetha is actually bothered that you need to WvW for Mistforged, or PvP for Ascension, then she should be making the case that they should be available elsewhere, and I would support her 120% in that effort. If she doesn’t actually care about those things, and just raises them as reason to NOT expand rewards in other areas of the game, then it’s just raising the point to shoot it down.

Stop putting words in my mouth. And stop straw-manning my argument as well. I raised them as pertinent examples of why we should not let the current set of legendary armor be obtainable from anything but normal raids, because every game mode needs its perks. WvW, PvP, open-world PvE, instanced PvE.

You want your loot? Work towards it. If you don’t want to, nobody’s forcing you to play raids.

All your time spent complaining in forums won’t change a thing either. You can choose to work on learning how to be a good doctor, or remain a plumber and pretend that you’re being discriminated against.

Looking at your previous posts, I don’t understand how you’re complaining so vehemently about raids while you’re slogging through PvP for the Ascension, and have had someone try to help you through Gorseval. Seriously, being lazy doesn’t help your case.

That’s a horrible analogy. No, what you’re asking for is very different. You do realize that the legendary armor precursor is a collection quest, and not something you ‘buy’?

I hadn’t realized that, but now that you mentioned it, I looked it up. They really didn’t advertise that well, did they? Anyway, it’s not an issue. Some of those ingredients could be earned through the easy mode, either through lowered drop rates or the easy mode boss would drop “fragments” of pieces that would need to be combined to equal the normal piece. This part would indeed take a little more time to implement than just the content itself, but it’s still doable. It’s possible they could leave the core collections alone, earned exactly the same as in hard mode, but just have some hard time-locked elements involved in the easy mode path. Perhaps one item that you would need to buy off the mistlock vendor using easy-mode currency that would require you to do it X amount of times first, similar to the “play three matches a day for 15 days” portion of the Ascension meta.

Instead of asking for the ability to buy things with ‘Doctor-bucks’, you’re asking for the right to be called a doctor and be recognized as such, despite being a plumber.

No, I’m not. Still a lowly peon plumber, I’d just like what I earn to be worth an equivalent amount to what you earn.

It doesn’t matter if it takes twice as long, you should not be able to get it without learning how to be a doctor first.

Oh, are you talking about the legendary armor now? No, anyone should be able to wear that for playing the game, raiders are nothing special that they deserve any special recognition, they just enjoy raiding where other players enjoy other things. Stop putting on airs.

Stop putting words in my mouth. And stop straw-manning my argument as well. I raised them as pertinent examples of why we should not let the current set of legendary armor be obtainable from anything but normal raids, because every game mode needs its perks.

You didn’t provide that “why” though. You just said “these things are exclusive to this content,” you made no attempt to explain why that is the case or should be considered a good thing. They are exclusive to those content, that is bad, that should be changed.

You want your loot? Work towards it. If you don’t want to, nobody’s forcing you to play raids.

I’m willing to work for it, and obviously no one’s forcing me to do raids, I would just like to do it without having to do hard mode raids, because I do not and will not enjoy hard mode raids. What is so difficult to understand about that?

All your time spent complaining in forums won’t change a thing either.

If all my time spent complaining on the forums won’t change anything, then what good will your time spent complaining about me complaining do? If I have no capacity to effect any change here, then why not just say “I’d rather they not do what this guy says” and move on?

Looking at your previous posts, I don’t understand how you’re complaining so vehemently about raids while you’re slogging through PvP for the Ascension, and have had someone try to help you through Gorseval. Seriously, being lazy doesn’t help your case.

It’s not laziness, it’s disinterest. And yeah, I hate PvP too, but at least that’s just three matches a day, takes about an hour minutes, most of that sitting around, the loot isn’t horrible for the effort involved, and I’m constantly progressing. With Gorseval it was three hours to accomplish nothing, we couldn’t even beat the guy. I just have no interest in that sort of activity whatsoever, and I don’t know why you can’t understand how that could be.

I appreciate that Randomguy was willing to try and help me, and I’d hoped it would work and we’d just get through it and it would be fun, but it never was, it was just the same experience I’d had with my guild trying to take down Vale Guardian, running in, doing the mechanics as best we could, screwing something up, wiping, repeating for hours on end. You might love that sort of thing, but to me, that is what Hell would be like. And yeah, “I don’t have to do it,” but then I would never get a reward that I want to get, so yeah, I’ll have to do it or never get that reward, and it benefits NO ONE that I should have to make that choice. Not me, not you, not ANet, no one.

Players should never have to choose between deliberately engaging in unpleasant activities or passing up on an item that they want. When developers cannot provide a fun path towards obtaining a desirable goal, they have failed this game.

Ohoni.6057:

You didn’t provide that “why” though. You just said “these things are exclusive to this content,” you made no attempt to explain why that is the case or should be considered a good thing. They are exclusive to those content, that is bad, that should be changed.

Go check the threads we had last season about this and Ascension. We’ll wait.

Skins exclusive to modes is not bad. It hurts nobody and provides incentives to play each mode. Exclusivity gives people a reason to step outside of their boxes and try new things. If they find they don’t like it, they put that reward aside and work on something else. If they find they like it, hey, they find a new thing in the game they like.

And of all modes, PvE has the most exclusive skins by far, and WvW has the least, so if you were to stick to your principle you would be trying to move PvE skins into WvW.

But you don’t. That’s because you’re not interested in the principles you spout. You’re just interested in the shinies. Everyone can see it.

Ohoni.6057:

If that were true they wouldn’t have to ghetto those voices into a single thread.

Actually it’s a good thing when they merge all your posts into one.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s a horrible analogy. No, what you’re asking for is very different. You do realize that the legendary armor precursor is a collection quest, and not something you ‘buy’?

I hadn’t realized that, but now that you mentioned it, I looked it up. They really didn’t advertise that well, did they? Anyway, it’s not an issue. Some of those ingredients could be earned through the easy mode, either through lowered drop rates or the easy mode boss would drop “fragments” of pieces that would need to be combined to equal the normal piece. This part would indeed take a little more time to implement than just the content itself, but it’s still doable. It’s possible they could leave the core collections alone, earned exactly the same as in hard mode, but just have some hard time-locked elements involved in the easy mode path. Perhaps one item that you would need to buy off the mistlock vendor using easy-mode currency that would require you to do it X amount of times first, similar to the “play three matches a day for 15 days” portion of the Ascension meta.

…wow.

You’ve been complaining about raids all this time and you didn’t even bother to learn about legendary armor? It was pretty obvious from day 1 it was a collection. You know, when people try to argue something, they usually come in educated on the issue.

And no. Legendary armor is currently a thing only raiders who put in the effort should be able to obtain. I don’t mind it being available outside raids, but it should always, always be available only by being dedicated. Not by putting in kitten effort and then pretending it means something.

No, I’m not. Still a lowly peon plumber, I’d just like what I earn to be worth an equivalent amount to what you earn.

You already do. It’s called ‘gold’. Go buy a shiny on the trading post. There are some things you should not be able to buy, or it cheapens the effort. Legendary armor is one.

Oh, are you talking about the legendary armor now? No, anyone should be able to wear that for playing the game, raiders are nothing special that they deserve any special recognition, they just enjoy raiding where other players enjoy other things. Stop putting on airs.

By that logic, PvP deserves nothing special, give me muh Ascension now!!!

By that logic, WvW is nothing special, let’s nerf it down to the ground even more, shall we?

It’s special to those that play it. That’s the entire point. Your entire proposal for easy raids is just to get special shinies you don’t have the ability to obtain to begin with. I’d have a lot more sympathy for people who just want the lore, but you clearly don’t care about that. And that’s the worst part; you’re hijacking someone else’s concerns and making it into something that suits your agenda.

So no, YOU stop putting on airs. We raiders are honest about not wanting our content nerfed for no good reason, or for people to claim something that shouldn’t be theirs unless the same amount of effort in the same content is put in. You’re not.

You didn’t provide that “why” though. You just said “these things are exclusive to this content,” you made no attempt to explain why that is the case or should be considered a good thing. They are exclusive to those content, that is bad, that should be changed.

Do I have to explain what nearly everyone else has been saying?

Exclusive rewards = Encourage people to play a certain content.
Exclusivity = Rewards efforts made and gives a feeling of progress.

It’s a human thing. It’s why there’s different loot in different places of the game. Even champ bags give different named exotics. Taking that away makes the entire point of an MMO redundant.

I’m willing to work for it, and obviously no one’s forcing me to do raids, I would just like to do it without having to do hard mode raids, because I do not and will not enjoy hard mode raids. What is so difficult to understand about that?

That there’s no hard mode raids, only raids? If you’re expecting a cakewalk, go do dungeons or fractals.

If all my time spent complaining on the forums won’t change anything, then what good will your time spent complaining about me complaining do? If I have no capacity to effect any change here, then why not just say “I’d rather they not do what this guy says” and move on?

Because I’m bored, so I’m commenting. Did you seriously think I was concerned?

It’s not laziness, it’s disinterest. And yeah, I hate PvP too, but at least that’s just three matches a day, takes about an hour minutes, most of that sitting around, the loot isn’t horrible for the effort involved, and I’m constantly progressing. With Gorseval it was three hours to accomplish nothing, we couldn’t even beat the guy. I just have no interest in that sort of activity whatsoever, and I don’t know why you can’t understand how that could be.

I appreciate that Randomguy was willing to try and help me, and I’d hoped it would work and we’d just get through it and it would be fun, but it never was, it was just the same experience I’d had with my guild trying to take down Vale Guardian, running in, doing the mechanics as best we could, screwing something up, wiping, repeating for hours on end. You might love that sort of thing, but to me, that is what Hell would be like. And yeah, “I don’t have to do it,” but then I would never get a reward that I want to get, so yeah, I’ll have to do it or never get that reward, and it benefits NO ONE that I should have to make that choice. Not me, not you, not ANet, no one.

Players should never have to choose between deliberately engaging in unpleasant activities or passing up on an item that they want. When developers cannot provide a fun path towards obtaining a desirable goal, they have failed this game.

Because you were failing your duties, which is part of raid progression. Learn to fail less. Understand your rotations better. And when that happens, you will kill Gorseval.

Oh, I can understand disinterest and not wanting to do something. What I can’t understand is why you insist on having your hand held instead of just doing something else entirely.

Guess what, every raider here has had to endure the same frustration you have. You think we killed VG within 20-30 minutes of trying the first time? Hell, some of us still take more than an hour to do it. That’s all part of raiding. Everybody wipes. You just have to stick it through.

The funny part is, Randomguy’s group killed Gorseval eventually, with 7 newcomers. It is possible. You just don’t want to try more than you already have, and that time you have spent? It’s nothing.

If you want your legendary armor, like I have said: Learn to do raids.

Stop being entitled to what you don’t deserve. Anet do not need to do anything for you. You need to start doing things for yourself.

Skins exclusive to modes is not bad. It hurts nobody and provides incentives to play each mode.

And for the millionth time, you’re only half right in that. Short term rewards hurt nobody. Ones you can acquire within an hour or two total. They provide all the benefits you list, sure enough. Long term exclusive rewards, however, do “hurt” people, as much as a game can hurt a person, at least, because they force that choice of “Do something that I know full well I will never enjoy doing,” OR “Never get that thing that I’d really rather have,” and nobody should every be forced to make that choice. He should always have a range of options to choose from, and at the very least have the freedom to choose a “least worst” option.

A reward that takes dozens, if not a hundred hours in a given activity is not something that is just an “eh, whatever” amount of effort for a well balanced individual.

And of all modes, PvE has the most exclusive skins by far, and WvW has the least, so if you were to stick to your principle you would be trying to move PvE skins into WvW.

I fully support moving all PvE rewards into both WvW and PvP. If others want to spend their time advocating those causes, I certainly won’t waste time arguing against them, and I’ll put in a good word for them where I can. Is that my cause though? No, it’s not, I have limited time to spend on the game, and that’s not how I care to spend it, any more than I would expect you to fight as hard as I am to get raid rewards out to the other players, but I at least don’t fight against it.

Actually it’s a good thing when they merge all your posts into one.

How so? It makes all the comments in the early bit into an illegible stew, with posts from four different threads laid out in random orders. Used to be that if someone was confused as to what exactly I was advocating, I could say “check the OP,” whereas now that post is probably in the middle of page three or something. There is nothing positive about thread consolidation, it is just a way for them to gag people they disagree with.

Ohoni.6057:

Actually it’s a good thing when they merge all your posts into one.

How so? It makes all the comments in the early bit into an illegible stew, with posts from four different threads laid out in random orders. Used to be that if someone was confused as to what exactly I was advocating, I could say “check the OP,” whereas now that post is probably in the middle of page three or something. There is nothing positive about thread consolidation, it is just a way for them to gag people they disagree with.

You post the same thing on 4 different threads… they would obviously merge them

Ohoni.6057:

And for the millionth time, you’re only half right in that. Short term rewards hurt nobody. Ones you can acquire within an hour or two total. They provide all the benefits you list, sure enough. Long term exclusive rewards, however, do “hurt” people, as much as a game can hurt a person, at least, because they force that choice of “Do something that I know full well I will never enjoy doing,” OR “Never get that thing that I’d really rather have,” and nobody should every be forced to make that choice. He should always have a range of options to choose from, and at the very least have the freedom to choose a “least worst” option.

A reward that takes dozens, if not a hundred hours in a given activity is not something that is just an “eh, whatever” amount of effort for a well balanced individual.

O hypocrisy, thine name is Ohoni.

You think that “dozens, if not a hundred hours” is something that isn’t an “eh, whatever” amount of effort for a well-balanced individual, yet you’re willing to grind through PvP for PvP wings even though you hate the mode.

And no, those aren’t the only two options. It’s entirely possible for someone to not care and not want a reward. I don’t care and I don’t really want legendary armor.

Ohoni.6057:

I fully support moving all PvE rewards into both WvW and PvP. If others want to spend their time advocating those causes, I certainly won’t waste time arguing against them, and I’ll put in a good word for them where I can. Is that my cause though? No, it’s not, I have limited time to spend on the game, and that’s not how I care to spend it, any more than I would expect you to fight as hard as I am to get raid rewards out to the other players, but I at least don’t fight against it.

Make the thread then. Until you do, as far as I’m concerned, you’re only after the shinies.

Ohoni.6057:

How so?

Many other internet forums have something called a “trash” forum. This is where threads that have no merit or have devolved into inflammatory territory go for archival purposes.

You’ve been complaining about raids all this time and you didn’t even bother to learn about legendary armor? It was pretty obvious from day 1 it was a collection. You know, when people try to argue something, they usually come in educated on the issue.

All I’d heard was that it wasn’t in yet, so I hadn’t really bothered digging into it.

And no. Legendary armor is currently a thing only raiders who put in the effort should be able to obtain. I don’t mind it being available outside raids, but it should always, always be available only by being dedicated. Not by putting in kitten effort and then pretending it means something.

Yeah, I agree, it should take effort, just not necessarily in a hard mode raid. “Dedication” can mean things other than fighting punishing bosses.

You already do. It’s called ‘gold’. Go buy a shiny on the trading post. There are some things you should not be able to buy, or it cheapens the effort. Legendary armor is one.

Let’s not get into how Anet completely ruined the gold economy, suffice it to say that buying things with gold is no solution.

By that logic, PvP deserves nothing special, give me muh Ascension now!!!

By that logic, WvW is nothing special, let’s nerf it down to the ground even more, shall we?

Agreed on both points. I think both should be rewarding for those who play them, including access to current PvE-exclusive items (like Legendary armor), but there shouldn’t be anything that can ONLY be earned through them.

It’s special to those that play it. That’s the entire point. Your entire proposal for easy raids is just to get special shinies you don’t have the ability to obtain to begin with. I’d have a lot more sympathy for people who just want the lore, but you clearly don’t care about that. And that’s the worst part; you’re hijacking someone else’s concerns and making it into something that suits your agenda.

I do care about the lore, it’s just not the ONLY thing I care about, just like if I suggested that they remove the Legendary armor from raids, I’m sure you’d throw a fit, but I wouldn’t accuse you of not caring at all about the gameplay. I understand and respect that you can value two things at once. And as for “hijacking,” if you mean this thread, keep in mind that this thread only exists because the mods decided to melange a half dozen different threads on the topic, one of which I’d started myself.

So no, YOU stop putting on airs. We raiders are honest about not wanting our content nerfed for no good reason, or for people to claim something that shouldn’t be theirs unless the same amount of effort in the same content is put in. You’re not.

And again, nobody is suggesting any nerfs to Raiding. Raiding will go on untouched. This would be an ALTERNATIVE OPTION, with which you need never touch.

Exclusive rewards = Encourage people to play a certain content.
Exclusivity = Rewards efforts made and gives a feeling of progress.

And these are both good things, but you should never mix the two. There should be exclusive rewards, but you should be able to achieve these within an hour or so, such that it gets you to TRY new things, but then RESPECTS your choice if you decide it’s not for you, and let’s you move on, prize in hand. And there should be rewards that reward long term goals, long term progress, but these should allow multiple paths to the same item, so that you can spend dozens of hours raiding, OR dozens of hours PvPing, OR dozens of hours in open world content, whatever sort of things appeal to YOU as a player. You should never have to spend dozens of hours in content that you know you don’t enjoy.

Because you were failing your duties, which is part of raid progression. Learn to fail less. Understand your rotations better. And when that happens, you will kill Gorseval.

Yeah, but like I keep telling you, while you may enjoy that process, while that might seem fun to you, I want no part of it. It’s not that I can’t, it’s that it would not be an activity I would enjoy, and anyone who plays a game to NOT enjoy himself is a bit unbalanced.

Guess what, every raider here has had to endure the same frustration you have. You think we killed VG within 20-30 minutes of trying the first time? Hell, some of us still take more than an hour to do it. That’s all part of raiding. Everybody wipes. You just have to stick it through.

No, but you are clearly of a mindset where it works out in the end. You spend hours and hours learning the raid, and maybe you don’t enjoy that bit so much, but then you complete it and WOW! You love that, that makes you so happy that you view the entire process as worth it, as a net positive experience that you enjoyed and would recommend to others. And that’s great, I am genuinely happy for you that you found something you enjoyed and continue to enjoy. But understand that my mind does not work the way yours does. I will never feel a happiness upon completing a task in the game that would make up for the grind of “working” the raid.

I know this, I’ve been playing games for twenty five years now, of all sorts, and have had all the experiences. I know how I work. So when I tell you that, yes, I would be kind of happy after killing the boss for the first time, but still like “but it totally wasn’t worth the hassle,” then I know enough to know that this is a true statement, for me. I don’t try to apply my state to you, I accept that you have a better idea of who you are than I do, so please accept the same of me.

PvP is a simpler example because the matches are very short. I’ve lost a lot of matches, really annoying one-sided failures, and I’ve won a lot of matches, some very clutch wins where I know for a fact I played a strong beneficial role for my team. Those are the best parts of PvP. But even in those moments, when everything worked out the best possible way, I am happy about that, but I am also annoyed to be having to play PvP. The highs of that activity do not ever overcome the lows, for me, because I just don’t enjoy the activity itself. I enjoy bits and pieces, but it’s always a net negative.

If you claim to enjoy raids, then it can only be because either the grinding process of them is, if not the most fun thing ever, at the very least more fun for you than it is for me, Or because the final victories are way more fun for you than they ever would be for me. That’s fine, I want you to play how it makes you happy, but I want you to respect that your happiness is not my happiness, and I want you to want my happiness as much as I want yours.

You post the same thing on 4 different threads… they would obviously merge them

Why, because I’m posting in them? Am I some sort of ethereal binding? they were different threads with lives of their own before the mods got involved.

You think that “dozens, if not a hundred hours” is something that isn’t an “eh, whatever” amount of effort for a well-balanced individual, yet you’re willing to grind through PvP for PvP wings even though you hate the mode.

Yeah, but I certainly don’t like it. I hope for an alternative, but this one is time sensitive so I’m putting up with it, and hating every minute. Rest assured, I have hashed this topic to death on the PvP boards.

And no, those aren’t the only two options. It’s entirely possible for someone to not care and not want a reward. I don’t care and I don’t really want legendary armor.

That’s fine. It has absolutely no impact on those who do care though.

Make the thread then. Until you do, as far as I’m concerned, you’re only after the shinies.

As I said, not my cause to advocate for, if you’d like to, go ahead, but I’m not going to be press-ganged into it just because you’d like to see it.

Ohoni.6057:

As I said, not my cause to advocate for, if you’d like to, go ahead, but I’m not going to be press-ganged into it just because you’d like to see it.

So yeah, you’re only interested in shinies.

That’s normal. But call a spade a spade. Don’t hide behind this principle that you’re not willing to uphold.

Ohoni.6057:

You post the same thing on 4 different threads… they would obviously merge them

Why, because I’m posting in them? Am I some sort of ethereal binding? they were different threads with lives of their own before the mods got involved.

You are posting the same thing on different threads, it’s hard to answer the same thing on all of them (and using copy-paste is dumb) so the merge was natural. If you stayed on the topic of each one and didn’t try to push for the same argument on all of them there wouldn’t be a merge in the first place.

And something to everyone over the last few pages: the funniest thing is that this mega merged thread is also going way off the original topic, which was “Difficulty settings for Raids” if anyone forgot.

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni.6057:

But if either of those bothered you, then you should, and I would support you. If they don’t actually bother you then you’re just raising a straw man position.

It’s not a strawman when it’s your actual position.

Yes, that’s what I said. If Sabetha is actually bothered that you need to WvW for Mistforged, or PvP for Ascension, then she should be making the case that they should be available elsewhere, and I would support her 120% in that effort. If she doesn’t actually care about those things, and just raises them as reason to NOT expand rewards in other areas of the game, then it’s just raising the point to shoot it down.

I care about those rewards and I still think they should stick to their respective areas without them being butchered because there’s people who prefer to invest their energy into crying on the forums instead of going to play the game and working on getting those rewards. What now?

Yeah, I agree, it should take effort, just not necessarily in a hard mode raid. “Dedication” can mean things other than fighting punishing bosses.

It can, and that’s why there’s other game modes, other skins you can obtain in another way. This does not apply to raids — which was meant to be challenging.

Let’s not get into how Anet completely ruined the gold economy, suffice it to say that buying things with gold is no solution.

Well, it’s a lot less ham-handed then what you’re suggesting, which is ‘Anet give me my shinies I don’t care how but I want it NOW’.

Agreed on both points. I think both should be rewarding for those who play them, including access to current PvE-exclusive items (like Legendary armor), but there shouldn’t be anything that can ONLY be earned through them.

No, it should remain exclusive. But I’ve already stated why.

I do care about the lore, it’s just not the ONLY thing I care about, just like if I suggested that they remove the Legendary armor from raids, I’m sure you’d throw a fit, but I wouldn’t accuse you of not caring at all about the gameplay. I understand and respect that you can value two things at once. And as for “hijacking,” if you mean this thread, keep in mind that this thread only exists because the mods decided to melange a half dozen different threads on the topic, one of which I’d started myself.

I don’t care about legendary armor. I have the stats I need, so no, I wouldn’t throw a fit. I just don’t agree with the current sets of armor being available anywhere outside raids. The second set though, should be in another game mode. That is a different argument entirely.

By hijacking, I mean playing on the legitimate concerns people had for raids, when your real concern is having a shiny exclusive to raiding. And that means a lot less to me than people who play for the story.

And again, nobody is suggesting any nerfs to Raiding. Raiding will go on untouched. This would be an ALTERNATIVE OPTION, with which you need never touch.

Sure, easy mode without rewards then. I’ve said it before; I don’t mind an easy mode, but it cannot provide a way to raid-exclusive loot at all.

You have objected to this, so clearly your concerns are less benevolent than you try to suggest.

And these are both good things, but you should never mix the two. There should be exclusive rewards, but you should be able to achieve these within an hour or so, such that it gets you to TRY new things, but then RESPECTS your choice if you decide it’s not for you, and let’s you move on, prize in hand. And there should be rewards that reward long term goals, long term progress, but these should allow multiple paths to the same item, so that you can spend dozens of hours raiding, OR dozens of hours PvPing, OR dozens of hours in open world content, whatever sort of things appeal to YOU as a player. You should never have to spend dozens of hours in content that you know you don’t enjoy.

No, I grinded for my first legendary for quite some time. Ascended armor as well. It didn’t take me ‘an hour or so’ to get them. And that’s perfectly fine. Good loot takes effort to get. If legendaries were dropping left, right and center it would be worthless.

Again, nobody’s forcing you to do content you don’t enjoy. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. You just want easy raids so you can grind — it’s not even because you want to play raids, it’s just so you can get your shiny and leave.

Do you see how fickle this comes across to raiders?

Yeah, but like I keep telling you, while you may enjoy that process, while that might seem fun to you, I want no part of it. It’s not that I can’t, it’s that it would not be an activity I would enjoy, and anyone who plays a game to NOT enjoy himself is a bit unbalanced.

Again. Don’t play it. Nobody’s stopping you.

If you claim to enjoy raids, then it can only be because either the grinding process of them is, if not the most fun thing ever, at the very least more fun for you than it is for me, Or because the final victories are way more fun for you than they ever would be for me. That’s fine, I want you to play how it makes you happy, but I want you to respect that your happiness is not my happiness, and I want you to want my happiness as much as I want yours.

If that were true, then why make statements like ’I’d choose nothing if it came down to hard raids or nothing’? You don’t care about your fellow players. Just the loot.

A piece of advice: If legendary armor matters so much to you, wait until they announce a new set following this one. I highly doubt it will be in raids, if only because of the uproar.

Right now, you can’t even get a precursor for it. What’s the rush for?

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will be happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

It’s going to be awesome!

Swagger.1459:

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

Do you really want this?

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

Do you really want this?

All game modes should be supported and do well.

Swagger.1459:

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

Do you really want this?

All game modes should be supported and do well.

I meant mostly the

devs will throw even more money and person power at raids

part. Do you/we want to make Raids more important in the game at the expense of everything else?

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

Do you really want this?

All game modes should be supported and do well.

I meant mostly the

devs will throw even more money and person power at raids

part. Do you/we want to make Raids more important in the game at the expense of everything else?

Let’s not embellish things.

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

Do you really want this?

All game modes should be supported and do well.

I meant mostly the

devs will throw even more money and person power at raids

part. Do you/we want to make Raids more important in the game at the expense of everything else?

If a large (or at least significantly larger) portion of the playerbase engages with raids due to difficulty settings then expanded resource allocation wouldnt really be at the expense of anything else if kept proportional to total play time per game mode ratios.

Ashen.2907:

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

maddoctor.2738:

Swagger.1459:

It’s going to be ok people. Everybody will happy when difficulty settings are introduced. Plus, the raid community will grow 10 fold and the devs will throw even more money and person power at raids.

Do you really want this?

All game modes should be supported and do well.

I meant mostly the

devs will throw even more money and person power at raids

part. Do you/we want to make Raids more important in the game at the expense of everything else?

If a large (or at least significantly larger) portion of the playerbase engages with raids due to difficulty settings then expanded resource allocation wouldnt really be at the expense of anything else if kept proportional to total play time per game mode ratios.

This.

I just don’t think this is something that should be started before all of the raid wings are out and ANet’s got the difficulty honed to where it wants it. So that there isn’t too much additional work that has to be done.

If Easy or Hard Raiding are supposed to be X times easier or harder, then if you change how hard Normal Raiding is, then Easy and Hard would have to be adjusted. That’s three times the work.

I’d rather Easy/Hard Raiding be done right the first time and not rushed out just to appease players. If that can be done in a week or so, great. But if it’s months before they can get to that due to other priorities, then that’s what should happen.

So yeah, you’re only interested in shinies.

That’s normal. But call a spade a spade. Don’t hide behind this principle that you’re not willing to uphold.

/sigh, if you aren’t going to read what people write then at least have the decency to not presume to sum up for them.

You are posting the same thing on different threads, it’s hard to answer the same thing on all of them (and using copy-paste is dumb) so the merge was natural. If you stayed on the topic of each one and didn’t try to push for the same argument on all of them there wouldn’t be a merge in the first place.

All my comments were on-topic responses to what other people were posting, I don’t see how you could fault me for that.

And something to everyone over the last few pages: the funniest thing is that this mega merged thread is also going way off the original topic, which was “Difficulty settings for Raids” if anyone forgot.

I can’t speak for you, but all I’ve been talking about is “difficulty settings for raids,” why they are necessary and how they could be achieved. But of course a merged topic cannot claim to have an actual topic, since it’s an unholy combination of several different threads with several different topics.

I care about those rewards and I still think they should stick to their respective areas without them being butchered because there’s people who prefer to invest their energy into crying on the forums instead of going to play the game and working on getting those rewards. What now?

I disagree with your stance, for reasons I’ve outlined above.

Well, it’s a lot less ham-handed then what you’re suggesting, which is ‘Anet give me my shinies I don’t care how but I want it NOW’.

I said nothing about “NOW,” note that the plans I outlined would take months or years to pay out, I hardly think that’s impatient. Yes, I would like to get started as soon as possible, because since the plan would take a long time to pay out, I’d rather not start that process already months or years behind the curve, and I think that it would be feasible to produce in a short amount of time, but would understand if they insisted it could not be done. I don’t believe that impatience is a serious factor in all of this.

By hijacking, I mean playing on the legitimate concerns people had for raids, when your real concern is having a shiny exclusive to raiding. And that means a lot less to me than people who play for the story.

I think a lot of other people do share the perfectly legitimate concerns about the availability of shinies, including those who currently have access to those shinies and want to keep them out of the hands of anyone different than themselves. There is also the concern of story, which protest all you like, I do care about, it’s just not the only thing I care about, and I’m not the only one who feels that way. So no, I am not “hijacking” anything, I am expressing my legitimate position on the issues of raids and raid difficulty, and others are free to express their own positions.

Sure, easy mode without rewards then. I’ve said it before; I don’t mind an easy mode, but it cannot provide a way to raid-exclusive loot at all.

How would that be an alternative method to earn raid rewards? You aren’t making sense.

You have objected to this, so clearly your concerns are less benevolent than you try to suggest.

How is seeking methods for the thousands of player who do not raid, to earn raid loot that they might want, not a benevolent act? I am, I never claim to have no self-interest in this, and obviously nor can anyone who insists that raid loot must stay exclusive to hard mode raiding, but it’s not entirely driven by self-interest. I genuinely believe that it would be in the best interests of the game as a whole.

No, I grinded for my first legendary for quite some time. Ascended armor as well. It didn’t take me ‘an hour or so’ to get them. And that’s perfectly fine. Good loot takes effort to get. If legendaries were dropping left, right and center it would be worthless.

Again, because you don’t seem to be getting it, Legendaries should be hard work, should take time to get, but you should be able to spend that time doing a variety of different activities. It’s quite fair to argue that the current legendaries are too PvE focused, and I agree with that, but the solution would be to open up more PvP and WvW options towards earning them, not to double-down on that philosophy. Again, nobody is talking about reducing the time or effort to earn these things, just to make them non-exclusive.

We discussed the Ascension wings, and how you believe they are a fair representation of an exclusive reward. To me, the current path to earn them is one fair path, but should not be the only path. There should also exist PvE activities to earn the majority of the components, so that a player can mostly just PvE to earn one (spending just as much time and effort as it would take to earn them the current way). With the goal of “encouraging people to PvP,” it should still require that a player earn the “Recruits Wings” backpiece the existing way, which would involve getting out of Amber at least once through the league. I feel that would represent an adequate amount of PvP for a “try this new thing” reward, and if by the time they accomplish that, they know that PvP is not their activity, then they can move on to other things without holding that item hostage.

Again, nobody’s forcing you to do content you don’t enjoy. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. You just want easy raids so you can grind — it’s not even because you want to play raids, it’s just so you can get your shiny and leave.

There have been some long threads on this, so I’ll forgive you for missing it so long as you don’t bring this up again, but this accusation has been asked and answered. For me, while rewards ARE a factor, certainly, and I definitely want them to be part of the easy mode raid, they are not the ONLY factor that is important to me, I do not just want the rewards handed to me, I want to earn them through time and effort spent. I want to play through the raid mechanics, just with a lower penalty for failure.

If they add an easy mode raid that is reasonably fun, but offers no rewards, then I will play through it exactly once, probably enjoy the experience, but see no reason to ever play it again. I think most would do the same and it would largely be pointless for the goal of providing solid repeatable content for those players left out by the current raid dynamics. If they did add the rewards though, so that I would have some motivation to repeat it, then I would be running easy mode raids weekly, just like hard mode raiders, and I imagine thousands of other players would as well.

If that were true, then why make statements like ’I’d choose nothing if it came down to hard raids or nothing’? You don’t care about your fellow players. Just the loot.

I care about the health of the game, and ultimately I think the game would be healthier without acquiring the “raid-way or the highway” mentality that other games have adopted. If raids and raiders cannot play nice with non-raiders, then it might be for the best to excise the tumor before it metastasizes. Ideally though we could figure out a way for raiders and non-raiders to coexist, for both sides to get what they want.

A piece of advice: If legendary armor matters so much to you, wait until they announce a new set following this one. I highly doubt it will be in raids, if only because of the uproar.

So you are telling me that rather than ask for a path forward now, I should wait for some indeterminate future, perhaps years down the road, in which they offer some alternative which may or may not be worthwhile? I’m sorry, no. I’ll ask for what I’d like to see now, and continue asking, until they do announce some alternative. I’m prepared to wait, if I know what it is I’m waiting for, but I’m not going to wait for something I have no reasonable expectations about.

I meant mostly the

devs will throw even more money and person power at raids

part. Do you/we want to make Raids more important in the game at the expense of everything else?

In their current form? Definitely not. If they added an easy mode that was fun and rewarding for non-raiders, I would be fine with that, perhaps even strongly in favor of it. I mean, I really hope to enjoy easy mode raiding, so why wouldn’t I want more resources on the project? But if it’s kept as an “exclusive” activity only for those “dedicated” to the task, then no, it doesn’t deserve more than a token effort.

Sabetha.4910:

Dungeons were more popular? One has had three years, the other has had half a year. Please compare a proportionate sample size.

Exactly. The popularity of dungeons has been waning, and yet still in their late days (after there’s been no new content for a long time, and everyone knew that dungeons were, in a fact, abandoned) they were still more popular than Raids are at their prime, when their popularity is at their highest.
Which, of course, is not surprising, seeing as Raids were aimed at a mush smaller target group from the get go.

Sabetha.4910:

I’m not telling Anet to make faceroll content harder, or to make GW2 for the elite players in general. But you people keep complaining about raids and insisting that you deserve an equal share by doing less. I do not agree with this. Is this wrong? I have already said in earlier comments that an ‘easy mode’ is fine, as long as the rewards are minimal, or non-existent.

So you defend your right to have fun (as you should), but at the same time fight even stronger against my right to have fun too. No, this is not right.

Sabetha.4910:

Raids exist to challenge the player. If the player refuses to be challenged, they do not deserve the reward for it. Simple as that.

Ah, but it’s far from simple. Yes, raids exist to challenge the player. Rewards however are a completely separate matter. I do not deny you your right to be challenged. If you want to have fun that way, you can. I just do not believe that it entitles you to better rewards. I do not believe that your way to have fun is inherently superior to mine, like you seem to assume.

Sabetha.4910:

I don’t go into WvW crying about not having a Mistforged weapon or PvP about not being able to get the Ascension without doing PvP.

Fun fact, both those rewards were designed with primarily PvE players in mind, and while required participation, did not really require competence. They could also be obtained through purely solo activity that was not gated in any way. No need for costly gear, or organizing your life around a raidlike schedule. As such, even though they aren’t perfect, they are already several degrees above raid-restricted rewards.
(As a side note, I fully expect Anet to start offering Legendary armor as PvP tournament rewards at some point, like they once did with legendary weapons and precursors)

Sabetha.4910:

So please, keep your high horse to yourself. At least we’re honest about our intentions, unlike some here.

Oh, i am honest about my intentions. Are you?

Ah, but it’s far from simple. Yes, raids exist to challenge the player. Rewards however are a completely separate matter. I do not deny you your right to be challenged. If you want to have fun that way, you can. I just do not believe that it entitles you to better rewards. I do not believe that your way to have fun is inherently superior to mine, like you seem to assume.

it was always in games, that if something is harder to beat, the rewards are better for it.

i think you do realize that this isn’t your typical single player game, where you just can set the option to easy or hard for your personal preference and thats it.

a company like anet hat also to think about fairness. like the rest said, equal share would be completly out of mind.
if the raid would be really that much easier, there is nothing great about to beat it (intention of raiding) thus, there should be no rewards wich the raid has to offer.

easy as that: you raid on easy mode, you can get some achivements (not stuff like the eternal or slippery slubling, the lore wise ones), you get 1 exotic as loot + rest of the trashloot you always get and like 50 silver. what you can’t get: legedary insights, trophys wich dropps from bosses and count towards the achivement from legendary the armor collection and no shards.

seems nice huh. you still get some exotic stuff and a little bit of silver like in dungeons.

and if you rly want the good stuff, then you should play the raid like the developers think its meant to be played. be the person wich makes a raiddeveloper smile because you can beat his raid.
it still stands. the devs create the game, they create the content. it has nothing to do if some ppl don’t like it or its too hard but they still want rewards.
the content is created in a way and there is tough behind it how it is meant to be played and how hard it should be. also in the end, the devs decide what they do.

you either commit, or you won’t get anything.

i mean, why not ask for a gm tool beforehand? /spawn 10000g and gg.
why does everyone these days only want the easy way at something? played probably too much kittenty smartphone games.

it was always in games, that if something is harder to beat, the rewards are better for it.

No, not remotely. Usually if one or the other has better rewards, it would be the harder, sure, but plenty of games offer different difficulty levels with zero other differences between them. In fact, there are games in which the easier modes offer much more rewards, as that’s the balancing mode that they use, hard mode is harder to gear up in.

Now I’m not saying that GW2 should go that route, but that sense of entitlement just because you prefer more challenging content is a bit hard to stomach. Always remember, this is A GAME. The purpose is to have fun. If fun for you is to challenge difficult content then that’s great. If fun for you is to avoid challenging content like the plague, that is equally great, so long as you’re enjoying yourself. Nobody benefits from you “getting better and improving yourself.” It’s a game, it’s not like you’re curing cancer. If you feel better about yourself for having improved your skills, then that’s something you should probably be doing, but don’t project that motivation onto every player in the game. ANet does not make any more money off of players that play as a form of self-motivation than they do from players who play just to blow off some steam, they do not owe you extra cookies for playing in a way that you enjoy, and if they decide to offer them anyway, be grateful, not greedy about it.

easy as that: you raid on easy mode, you can get some achivements (not stuff like the eternal or slippery slubling, the lore wise ones), you get 1 exotic as loot + rest of the trashloot you always get and like 50 silver. what you can’t get: legedary insights, trophys wich dropps from bosses and count towards the achivement from legendary the armor collection and no shards.

seems nice huh. you still get some exotic stuff and a little bit of silver like in dungeons.

But then how would players be able to work towards legendary armor without using hard mode raiding? Seems like a bit of a waste to come up with an entirely new mechanic when easy mode raiding is right there on the table.

it still stands. the devs create the game, they create the content. it has nothing to do if some ppl don’t like it or its too hard but they still want rewards.

Lol, no.

It still stands that this is a commercial product, and developers that make games purely for their own amusement go bankrupt. They have to design content with their players in mind, to make more players happy than they upset with each change to the game. This is not some indy passion project here.

i mean, why not ask for a gm tool beforehand? /spawn 10000g and gg.

I don’t know, why not ask for some sort of humanoid effigy, stuffed with straw?

why does everyone these days only want the easy way at something? played probably too much kittenty smartphone games.

“Why” is not our problem, nor ANet’s. The fact that they do is all that matters.

Ohoni.6057:

I can’t speak for you, but all I’ve been talking about is “difficulty settings for raids,” why they are necessary and how they could be achieved. But of course a merged topic cannot claim to have an actual topic, since it’s an unholy combination of several different threads with several different topics.

Exactly your problem. Moving every thread towards “difficulty settings for Raids” isn’t on-topic for the others. In fact it makes every thread look the same as they discuss the same thing. Why you find those merges unreasonable is beyond me. Keep derailing more merges might come

Exactly your problem. Moving every thread towards “difficulty settings for Raids” isn’t on-topic for the others.

Every comment I made was on topic for the thread I made it in. That you disagree with those statements regardless where you find them is irrelevant to me.

skarpak.8594:

Ah, but it’s far from simple. Yes, raids exist to challenge the player. Rewards however are a completely separate matter. I do not deny you your right to be challenged. If you want to have fun that way, you can. I just do not believe that it entitles you to better rewards. I do not believe that your way to have fun is inherently superior to mine, like you seem to assume.

it was always in games, that if something is harder to beat, the rewards are better for it.

That’s not really true, you know. As Ohoni mentioned, there’s a lot of games that offer no rewards whatsoever for increased difficulty – satisfaction from beating the harder content is considered reward enough.

skarpak.8594:

i think you do realize that this isn’t your typical single player game, where you just can set the option to easy or hard for your personal preference and thats it.

I do. I still don’t understand why this entitles your way of having fun to have better rewards than mine. It’s not really better in any way.

skarpak.8594:

a company like anet hat also to think about fairness. like the rest said, equal share would be completly out of mind.

Why? What’s fair in singling your way of having fun to be better rewarded?

skarpak.8594:

if the raid would be really that much easier, there is nothing great about to beat it (intention of raiding) thus, there should be no rewards wich the raid has to offer.

One doesn’t follow the other. This is an entertainment, not competition.

skarpak.8594:

easy as that: you raid on easy mode, you can get some achivements (not stuff like the eternal or slippery slubling, the lore wise ones), you get 1 exotic as loot + rest of the trashloot you always get and like 50 silver. what you can’t get: legedary insights, trophys wich dropps from bosses and count towards the achivement from legendary the armor collection and no shards.

Again, why? What exactly in Raid makes you entitled to better rewards and fun? No, difficulty is not the answer, challenging yourself is just the way you want to have fun.

skarpak.8594:

seems nice huh. you still get some exotic stuff and a little bit of silver like in dungeons.

Ah yes, i should be satisfied with trash because i’m a second class citizen. Sorry for not feeling enough gratitude for being allowed to eat scraps from the table.

skarpak.8594:

and if you rly want the good stuff, then you should play the raid like the developers think its meant to be played. be the person wich makes a raiddeveloper smile because you can beat his raid.

Why would i want to make a raiddeveloper smile at the cost of my enjoyment, when they seem to be out to kill my fun? Shouldn’t it be the other way around, considering that they are the ones getting paid for it?

skarpak.8594:

it still stands. the devs create the game, they create the content.

Indeed. And now i am trying to persuade them, they should do that again. Create the content. Because the one they’ve created lately is no good at all.

skarpak.8594:

also in the end, the devs decide what they do.

Great you agree.

skarpak.8594:

you either commit, or you won’t get anything.

Yeah, that exactly is the problem here. I get nothing.

skarpak.8594:

why does everyone these days only want the easy way at something? played probably too much kittenty smartphone games.

It’s the opposite actually. I’ve had way too many raids in my life. Now i just want to have fun. I don’t want a second job – one is enough for me.