Guild Wars 2

And we can see here and on Reddit just how well received raids have been for the community.

Players never had issues like these in city of heroes raiding, so I wonder what gw2 could learn from that…

to answer your question regarding “why does your fun should have better rewards then mine”.
look at fractals. anet decided to make them better for casuals. and what have we now? a swampfest. what do you think would happen to raids if there is an easy mode.

100% of the pugs would never actually run the mode wich is hard if there are the same rewards (in terms regarding achivements / asc drop) and raids would be the same as fractals. content that gets boring in less then 2 weeks and no one would really bother about the harder mechanic. most commited player don’t play this game as their second job, you are right, but playing a mmo on this scale is a hobby more or less.

they nerfed dungeons and we have seen what happend. they made fractals for the masses and we also have seen here what happend. what would you think would happen to raids?

and why shouldn’t there be “exclusive” content with one thing in mind. i mean i can’t play in the esl in pvp and since i know this, i also don’t want to have the same rewards.

as i said, its not about your fun or my fun. what entitels you to get rewards when you can’t beat the content as it is.

funny thing is also, as you soeak you do as if there where so many players crying about it. i see only a few ppl in this forum. ingame the most ppl wich don’t raid don’t give a rats kitten about this
you should have in mind, you can only speak for yourself and now for the whole community. if there aren’t many peeps complaining, it doesn’t look like this is an issue at all.

its just 4 ppl thinking they should get the legy collection with doing less then other ppl.
and yes, that is an issue for my fun, because i think its not fair…not to me, but all the other casuals who actually commit to the raid and train until they get bald.

to answer your question regarding “why does your fun should have better rewards then mine”.
look at fractals. anet decided to make them better for casuals. and what have we now? a swampfest. what do you think would happen to raids if there is an easy mode.

That is not the fault of “casuals,” that is the fault of design decisions that made the Swamp much faster than other Fractals. There’s nothing particularly “casual” about it, it’s just efficiency.

100% of the pugs would never actually run the mode wich is hard if there are the same rewards (in terms regarding achivements / asc drop) and raids would be the same as fractals.

If 100% of pugs would run easy mode for reduced reward rather than hard mode for increased reward, then. . . that’s what would happen and there’s nothing wrong with that. So long as people make choices that make them happy, there’s no reason to hate on them.

they nerfed dungeons and we have seen what happend. they made fractals for the masses and we also have seen here what happend. what would you think would happen to raids?

The active population would at least triple from its current numbers?

and why shouldn’t there be “exclusive” content with one thing in mind. i mean i can’t play in the esl in pvp and since i know this, i also don’t want to have the same rewards.

And yet there is a VERY strong anti-esports majority within the GW2 community. ANet continues it in spite of the players, it should never be used as an example of what they should be doing in other areas of the game.

as i said, its not about your fun or my fun. what entitels you to get rewards when you can’t beat the content as it is.

What entitles you to get rewards if you can beat the content as it is? Nothing. The devs just said you do, so you do. If they say someone else can have them, then that person is equally as entitled to them as you are.

yeah, you are right with your last text. and as it stands, there is no easy mode.
see, you can’t have them without doing the hard one.

edit: actually, i think its great that raiding is not for everyone. not because i want that it stays exclusive. i just don’t want to see that masses who give a kitten about the content and only want to do it for the rewards one time swarming all over the place.
i think its great to discover mechanics and beating the boss the very first time. there is always excitement. there is like 99% easy content with rewards in the game, raids should stay like they are. they aren’t so super hard anyways.

its not time yet to give raids a death blow. you can talk about it in 2 years or so.

It´s actually the vicious circle we discuss about since raids arrived:
Doing a raid requires practice and study. There are those like me who don´t want to invest time into raids for that reason, others love to do just that. I think it is not a question if people could do raids. I am sure if you try hard enough, you can enter a raid and beat it over time if you want. Like a 46 year old lady that can get a drivers licence in the 25th try because nobody wants to see her ever again in driving school or at the drivers license booth.

The question for me is: Why should I subject myself to something like this? I am not in the slightest interested in the raid mechanics, it´s difficulty or the title for completing it. I am interested into raids because there seems to be substantial lore hidden behind it, and because there is a substantial type of armor exclusively gated behind it.

Yes, I know. Ascended = legendary. We also waltzed out long and broad why legendary trumps ascended in terms of convenience if not in stats right at this moment.

My solution would be to remove the armor from raids and stuff it with gold, skins and titles instead. Gold is something hardcore gamers already have plenty of if they are not wvw people, so they could indeed prove that they look for challenge and teamwork, not for a way to feel superior in an elitist way of not only having exclusive titles and skins but also the best armor type. And they could also prove that they can recruit without the big carrot Anet left to dangle. I would do the same with PvP backpack and would have done so with the ascended fractals backpack, so this is not limited to my aversion against raids.

I have avoided this thread for a few days because it has become what these threads always become – a highly polarized argument in which the two sides have no hope of changing anyone’s mind.

I think the single biggest reason this is being discussed right now is the inexcusable lack of new content in other parts of the game. Raids aren’t for everyone, but right now, they are the only thing ANET is putting out (and will most likely be the only thing they put out until late into 2016). People are – rightfully so, imo – concerned about that. The current open world and living story content will not keep people entertained until May, much less July or August.

So, the alternative is, if raids are all we are getting for the majority of 2016, then those raids need to appeal to a much wider audience than they currently do – meaning there needs to be a way for casual players to experience the content – much like there is a way for them to experience fractals (lower levels) – without destroying the experience, or the reward, for more dedicated players (of which I am one, for the record – I am raiding regularly).

The very idea of this seems to make those more dedicated players angry. They have a special corner of the game that they can call all their own. I can kind of relate to that sentiment, but retaining the exclusivity of that corner isn’t worth the toll it will take on the game as a whole.

In my opinion, if raiding is going to be an ongoing part of the game, one of two things has to happen. Either ensure that the open world, living story, guild missions, fractals, etc are continually added at a regular pace – giving those audiences something to do when they log in; or start giving those audiences a low(er) stress experience to do in 10 player (raid) environments. I still say it can be done without killing the experience for everyone else.

It is hard keeping diverse groups of players entertained. The reality is, Anet is failing to do so right now and that is causing a backlash. They need to address that root issue, either through picking up the pace in other parts of the game or adding to the raiding experience (or both).

its kinda funny. when the game rolled out and legendarys got discovered, after a while when more and more gamers got one, everyone had the same thing in tough.
there is nothing legendary behind legendarys. you can just simply buy them off the tp. you have nothing to do for them if you don’t want to. that was like everyone thought off them and most people still do.

now, with hot, you actually have to do something and now people complain again.
guess there will be always somebody who complains. its either that people think stuff is to easy to get and they should get more fame for owning something or the other people who have this entiteld feeling they are the chosen ones and don’t have to do anything to get something.

skarpak.8594:

its kinda funny. when the game rolled out and legendarys got discovered, after a while when more and more gamers got one, everyone had the same thing in tough.
there is nothing legendary behind legendarys. you can just simply buy them off the tp. you have nothing to do for them if you don’t want to. that was like everyone thought off them and most people still do.

now, with hot, you actually have to do something and now people complain again.
guess there will be always somebody who complains. its either that people think stuff is to easy to get and they should get more fame for owning something or the other people who have this entiteld feeling they are the chosen ones and don’t have to do anything to get something.

Ok, fair enough. Players have to do something for legendaries…

PvE for legendary weapons.

Raids for legendary armors.

Fractals and spvp leagues for legendary back piece.

WvW and EotM for legendary runes and sigils and infusions and trinkets.

skarpak.8594:

to answer your question regarding “why does your fun should have better rewards then mine”.
look at fractals. anet decided to make them better for casuals. and what have we now? a swampfest. what do you think would happen to raids if there is an easy mode.

Well, if the easy mode had exactly the same drop quantity as the hard mode, i’d assume most people would do it and not touch hard mode with a long stick. Which, by the way, would mean that most people didn’t really care about the challenge at all. If the easy mode had the same rewards, but at an appriopriately slower rate, then people that could do it would still be doing hard mode, because it would simply be more efficient.
(hint: don’t use flaws with fractal system, which Anet already said they are meaning to fix, to assume any similar system will be equally flawed)

skarpak.8594:

and why shouldn’t there be “exclusive” content with one thing in mind. i mean i can’t play in the esl in pvp and since i know this, i also don’t want to have the same rewards.

And you are completely free to make a topic asking for those rewards being accessible in other modes.

skarpak.8594:

as i said, its not about your fun or my fun. what entitels you to get rewards when you can’t beat the content as it is.

Nothing. Just as nothing entitles you to get the rewards when you beat the current content. Who gets what is just a result of an arbitrary dev decision that can be changed at any time, and has nothing to do with the content itself.

skarpak.8594:

funny thing is also, as you soeak you do as if there where so many players crying about it. i see only a few ppl in this forum. ingame the most ppl wich don’t raid don’t give a rats kitten about this

You’d be surprised.

skarpak.8594:

you should have in mind, you can only speak for yourself and now for the whole community. if there aren’t many peeps complaining, it doesn’t look like this is an issue at all.

Oh, sure, you could claim that, but then by the same reasoning there aren’t many people that are against making the rewards more widely available. Come to think, there wouldn’t even be that much people that like raids.

skarpak.8594:

its just 4 ppl thinking they should get the legy collection with doing less then other ppl.
and yes, that is an issue for my fun, because i think its not fair…not to me, but all the other casuals who actually commit to the raid and train until they get bald.

Why not? If they like it, then they won’t complain., but if they don’t, then having them “train until they go bald” is way more unfair.

skarpak.8594:

yeah, you are right with your last text. and as it stands, there is no easy mode.
see, you can’t have them without doing the hard one.

There’s no reason why it couldn’t change though.

skarpak.8594:

edit: actually, i think its great that raiding is not for everyone. not because i want that it stays exclusive. i just don’t want to see that masses who give a kitten about the content and only want to do it for the rewards one time swarming all over the place.

The best way to avoid it is to give an alternate method to get those rewards. Then you won’t need to ever see those masses in your precious content again.

skarpak.8594:

i think its great to discover mechanics and beating the boss the very first time. there is always excitement.

For you. What’s fun for you doesn’t need to be fun for someone else.

skarpak.8594:

its kinda funny. when the game rolled out and legendarys got discovered, after a while when more and more gamers got one, everyone had the same thing in tough.
there is nothing legendary behind legendarys. you can just simply buy them off the tp. you have nothing to do for them if you don’t want to. that was like everyone thought off them and most people still do.

Not true at all. regardless if you can buy a Legendray off the TP, it’s still a very sizeable investment to get it, aroudn 1000 gold, or you can craft one yourself, which is also it’s own journey.

The main thing here, is that Until Raids, Anet gave players a means to get the major items by incremental investment, be that saving up one gold at a time, or saving up those Vicious fangs.

Just like, the Legendary Back item only Requires level 28 Fractal, not level 100. It’s designed that way, to make getting the item while a bit of a journey, accessible to the vast majority of the population that are willing to put casual investment to gain incremental advances towards a reward.

Now, if the Legendary back Item required you to do Level 100 Fractals, you would have a solid point, but it does not, so you don’t have a point.

In this venture, the Raid is fine, much like Fractal Level 100 is fine. As long as story advancement and renowned content is not hidden behind it.

That way, you can enjoy your fun raid, maybe they can toss you the equivalent to a Golden Fractal Weapon, for your raid efforts.

But we both can get our legendary armors and enjoy our stories.

That is the way the game has been from when I started playing, and truth be told, that is a great way for the game to continue going.

STIHL.2489:

Just like, the Legendary Back item only Requires level 28 Fractal, not level 100.

Unbound is the precursor to the Legendary Backpiece, not the actual Legendary.

Nokaru.7831:

STIHL.2489:

Just like, the Legendary Back item only Requires level 28 Fractal, not level 100.

Unbound is the precursor to the Legendary Backpiece, not the actual Legendary.

Technically, raids also serve as a block to legendary armor precursors, not legendary armor itself.

Nokaru.7831:

STIHL.2489:

Just like, the Legendary Back item only Requires level 28 Fractal, not level 100.

Unbound is the precursor to the Legendary Backpiece, not the actual Legendary.

Fair point, but as it stands right now, we don’t know what 2 of the Gifts (Fractal and Infinity) Might Require,

So with what we do know, 28 it’s still the highest level fractal required, and to be honest, level 28 is not Elite or even what would be called “Hard” content, on top of that you can practice run the Fractal on level 6, (IE: easy mode) or level 19, (A little harder then Easy Mode) to get a feel for how it will play out and to work out any issues or insecurities before doing the level 28 fractal.

No such mechanic exists for the raid, either you go all in, or you don’t go.

Now, if suddenly “Gift of the Fractal” requires you to do every fractal from level 1 – 100, then you know what, I’d understand their mentality behind the raid.. I might also consider playing something else if that is the direction they plan to go in, because for as much as I love this game, that is simply not a direction I can afford in time and effort to join them down.

So with what we do know, 28 it’s still the highest level fractal required, and to be honest, level 28 is not Elite or even what would be called “Hard” content, on top of that you can practice run the Fractal on level 6, (IE: easy mode) or level 19, (A little harder then Easy Mode) to get a feel for how it will play out and to work out any issues or insecurities before doing the level 28 fractal.

It would be very disingenuous of them to show a precursor track that is relatively easy to pass, but then to offer later tier tracks that are much harder to pass, making them realistically impossible for many of the players who completed the earlier track, and thus rendering all their efforts completely worthless. You can’t ramp the difficulty after the race has started.

Ohoni.6057:

It would be very disingenuous of them to show a precursor track that is relatively easy to pass, but then to offer later tier tracks that are much harder to pass, making them realistically impossible for many of the players who completed the earlier track, and thus rendering all their efforts completely worthless. You can’t ramp the difficulty after the race has started.

No that’s actually how progression in video games works. Early stages are easy, late stages are hard.

No that’s actually how progression in video games works. Early stages are easy, late stages are hard.

But that progression needs to seem fair. A wall is not a good idea.

Ohoni.6057:

But that progression needs to seem fair. A wall is not a good idea.

While there does need to be a difficulty curve;

Firstly, this assumes that the progression model is raid to raid to raid with nothing preceding it. There’s no reason to think this when there are multiple modes of content which lead into raids. Frankly, a big part of why raid models don’t work is because dungeon models don’t work.

Secondly, there is a difficulty curve in the raids. As I’ve said, VG is easy. If you can beat VG, then there is no wall. There may be one for you but that’s because you’ve got absolutely no experience and you despise challenge and effort.

As I’ve said, VG is easy. If you can beat VG, then there is no wall. There may be one for you but that’s because you’ve got absolutely no experience and you despise challenge and effort.

Yes, hence the problem.

My point simply is that we don’t know what the Legendary Backpiece will require in its entirety, so any argument using it as a premise is built entirely off of assumption.

I think that raids are fine as they are. I haven’t beaten VG with my guild yet but we’re having a lot of fun with it anyway, so much that I don’t mind the difficulty. It’s very fun to see the whole group get better with every try. I know we’ll beat it eventually.

That being said, I would still like the current raid story to be accessible for those who don’t have the time, resources or company to raid. After all, it’s a story they started in GW1, so I feel like that should be something accessible for those players who played GW1 and want to know the rest. This depends of course on the impact of the story. Untill now the raid story hasn’t tied any story threads from GW1, I think, just using the history and building a new story on it with new characters. For example, if there is to be a mursaat in the last raid wing, that would be something so important, that they shouldn’t leave it behind this “only for raiders” wall. But if nothing that important is there in the story, then I don’t mind it being the way it is now.

If there were to be an easy mode for raids.. I think it should either not have rewards at all, or only give rewards on the first play through like the personal story.

Ohoni.6057:

As I’ve said, VG is easy. If you can beat VG, then there is no wall. There may be one for you but that’s because you’ve got absolutely no experience and you despise challenge and effort.

Yes, hence the problem.

i.e. the problem is you, not the game.

Nokaru.7831:

My point simply is that we don’t know what the Legendary Backpiece will require in its entirety, so any argument using it as a premise is built entirely off of assumption.

We don’t really know what the Legendary armor will require either, the current tracks are for precursor armor. As such, we can, in fact, easily compare both.
And raids really stand out here, in a very negative way.

Sarrs.4831:

As I’ve said, VG is easy. If you can beat VG, then there is no wall.

“If you can pass the wall, it doesn’t exist”.
But it does.

Though yes, i agree, it’s not primarily skill-based. There are other, far more important factors involved.

Astralporing.1957:

“If you can pass the wall, it doesn’t exist”.
But it does.

Though yes, i agree, it’s not primarily skill-based. There are other, far more important factors involved.

What exactly are you having difficulty with when trying to get past VG?

I honestly don’t think that any issues pre-raid are going to actually be fixed by adding an easy mode. You need to find a raid group, you need to find a guild, etc etc. The best way to do that, IMO, would be to address other small-group content somehow, including Dungeons and Fractals, so they can do the job they’re supposed to do and provide a stepping stone for players.

Dungeons are completely out of the picture now, rip
Fractals of the Swamp don’t teach you anything nor do they help players get the friends they need to have a chance at tackling the raids.

But this is all pie in the sky stuff. Frankly it’s pretty late and I couldn’t be bothered reading through the entire thread and getting your concerns but yeah I don’t think the problem of raids being a ‘wall’ is because raids are a wall, it’s because dungeons and fractals aren’t being the ramp up the wall that they need to be.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

“If you can pass the wall, it doesn’t exist”.
But it does.

Though yes, i agree, it’s not primarily skill-based. There are other, far more important factors involved.

What exactly are you having difficulty with when trying to get past VG?

I honestly don’t think that any issues pre-raid are going to actually be fixed by adding an easy mode. You need to find a raid group, you need to find a guild, etc etc.

Mostly it’s the time and organizational commitment. I could maybe get my guild to organize so that there are 10 people ready at the same time, but only for an attempt with a reasonable chance of succeeding. Which, we both know, is not going to happen unless everyone is already experienced. And i’m in this game to play with my friends, so i’m not going to look for a guild full of people i don’t care about either.
There’s a “small”, secondary gate in form of needing the right gear too, but i bet i’m going to hear now that not only it’s easily passed, but is not even a gate because even a total noob should be able to do it in exotics.

Sarrs.4831:

The best way to do that, IMO, would be to address other small-group content somehow, including Dungeons and Fractals, so they can do the job they’re supposed to do and provide a stepping stone for players.

As the main problem in Raids is time and organization, no changes to Dungeons or Fractals are going to help there.

Sarrs.4831:

Frankly it’s pretty late and I couldn’t be bothered reading through the entire thread and getting your concerns but yeah I don’t think the problem of raids being a ‘wall’ is because raids are a wall, it’s because dungeons and fractals aren’t being the ramp up the wall that they need to be.

Oh no, it’s exactly because raids are a wall. A wall that has been specifically designed to prevent as many players as possible from even trying, just so remaining ones can feel better.

Astralporing.1957:

Oh no, it’s exactly because raids are a wall. A wall that has been specifically designed to prevent as many players as possible from even trying, just so remaining ones can feel better.

I’ve been avoiding this thread for a while now, but i have to call shenanigans here.

How hard is it for you to put up a tag, get 10 people who want to raid, go in and raid ?
I bet it would take little more than 10 minutes, if you actually cared enough to do it.

Whether you succeed or not, has nothing to do with the raids accessibility so stop mixing the two up. If you fail and decide to take nothing from it, that is not a fault of the raid but a personal problem with accepting failure and learning from it.

Ohoni.6057:

And casuals are supported. There is so much content available to you. If you were to the point where you had nothing else to do I highly doubt you would be casual.

This does not matter.

In reality, you want to hit these bosses with a few attempts, get an easy zerg-tactic kill, and reap the rewards.

Yep.

When people say this game isn’t “casual friendly” on these forums it is the direct result from them unwilling to put the work in.

Exactly.

That is the literal definition of lazy and you can not argue this.

Ok

Just so everyone can see Ohoni’s position in a nice easy piece.

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

“If you can pass the wall, it doesn’t exist”.
But it does.

Though yes, i agree, it’s not primarily skill-based. There are other, far more important factors involved.

What exactly are you having difficulty with when trying to get past VG?

I honestly don’t think that any issues pre-raid are going to actually be fixed by adding an easy mode. You need to find a raid group, you need to find a guild, etc etc.

Mostly it’s the time and organizational commitment. I could maybe get my guild to organize so that there are 10 people ready at the same time, but only for an attempt with a reasonable chance of succeeding. Which, we both know, is not going to happen unless everyone is already experienced. And i’m in this game to play with my friends, so i’m not going to look for a guild full of people i don’t care about either.
There’s a “small”, secondary gate in form of needing the right gear too, but i bet i’m going to hear now that not only it’s easily passed, but is not even a gate because even a total noob should be able to do it in exotics.

Sarrs.4831:

The best way to do that, IMO, would be to address other small-group content somehow, including Dungeons and Fractals, so they can do the job they’re supposed to do and provide a stepping stone for players.

As the main problem in Raids is time and organization, no changes to Dungeons or Fractals are going to help there.

Sarrs.4831:

Frankly it’s pretty late and I couldn’t be bothered reading through the entire thread and getting your concerns but yeah I don’t think the problem of raids being a ‘wall’ is because raids are a wall, it’s because dungeons and fractals aren’t being the ramp up the wall that they need to be.

Oh no, it’s exactly because raids are a wall. A wall that has been specifically designed to prevent as many players as possible from even trying, just so remaining ones can feel better.

If your main problem is organization, then perhaps raids aren’t for you. There’s plenty of other content that requires less organization. I don’t think easy mode will solve you problem.

“If you can pass the wall, it doesn’t exist”.
But it does.

It really is a very zen statement, if you think about it.

But yeah, not particularly helpful to people on the wrong side of the wall.

What exactly are you having difficulty with when trying to get past VG?

I honestly don’t think that any issues pre-raid are going to actually be fixed by adding an easy mode. You need to find a raid group, you need to find a guild, etc etc. The best way to do that, IMO, would be to address other small-group content somehow, including Dungeons and Fractals, so they can do the job they’re supposed to do and provide a stepping stone for players.

I had zero problems trying to find a group to do VG. That “issue” is a complete red herring. The issue was that once we had a group together, we kept having to reset because we could not deal enough DPS to finish him within the time limit, and/or could not survive past the middle of the fight.

When I say that an easy mode would help, I mean that an easy mode would help. I don’t get why this concept is so hard to understand.

But this is all pie in the sky stuff. Frankly it’s pretty late and I couldn’t be bothered reading through the entire thread and getting your concerns but yeah I don’t think the problem of raids being a ‘wall’ is because raids are a wall, it’s because dungeons and fractals aren’t being the ramp up the wall that they need to be.

You assume that players WANT to ever reach “raid level difficulty.” Most don’t. They just want a way AROUND that level of difficulty. There is no virtue in being able to pass highly difficult content, it’s either something that you enjoy or it is not, and player who do not enjoy it, should not have to do it.

Whether you succeed or not, has nothing to do with the raids accessibility

Lol, no.

Ohoni.6057:

You assume that players WANT to ever reach “raid level difficulty.” Most don’t. They just want a way AROUND that level of difficulty. There is no virtue in being able to pass highly difficult content, it’s either something that you enjoy or it is not, and player who do not enjoy it, should not have to do it.

There’s a trope that GW2 players want to press 1 and receive loot. I’m worried you’re fitting into that trope.

I get that not everyone can beat a raid. But it’s ok to have varying levels of difficulty in content. And it’s ok to have different rewards for different content. Especially rewards that don’t give a statistical advantage.

Everything you want is in other areas of the game. Epic open world boss fights. Forgiving instanced content. Interesting boss mechanics. Raids cater to a different player base.

Not everyone can beat all content in this game. Not everyone can get to legendary pvp. Not everyone can beat arah. Not everyone can do all the jumping puzzles. That doesn’t mean that we need an easy mode for this content. It means you need other options to enjoy the game. Which you already have.

Ohoni.6057:

Whether you succeed or not, has nothing to do with the raids accessibility

Lol, no.

Really ?

Let’s analyze this then.

At any point during any event in this game are you guaranteed success ?
Does that success mean you cannot partake in the event ?

Anyone at anypoint in time can access the raid, it’s accessibility is fine. It’s ultimately a you problem. You do not like the raids in there current state. That is not the same as they are Inaccessible.

Just to drive this point home….I moved my level 30 alt to the raid. It has 0 trait lines trained.

Inaccessible right ?

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

Whether you succeed or not, has nothing to do with the raids accessibility

Lol, no.

Really ?

Let’s analyze this then.

At any point during any event in this game are you guaranteed success ?
Does that success mean you cannot partake in the event ?

Anyone at anypoint in time can access the raid, it’s accessibility is fine. It’s ultimately a you problem. You do not like the raids in there current state. That is not the same as they are Inaccessible.

Just to drive this point home….I moved my level 30 alt to the raid. It has 0 trait lines trained.

Inaccessible right ?

This.

And in other words:

Accessible to you does NOT mean you succeed. It means you are able to enter the raid and TRY it. Failing or succeeding does not change whether it is accessible or not.

Ohoni.6057:

Whether you succeed or not, has nothing to do with the raids accessibility

Lol, no.

Best discussion point ever.

There’s a trope that GW2 players want to press 1 and receive loot. I’m worried you’re fitting into that trope.

It comes from people who can’t believe that a middleground exists. There IS a middleground between hard mode and infantile mode, most games call it “normal mode.” I do not want “press 1, receive loot,” and nor do I want “grind away at it for ten hours and eventually you can pass it.” I’ve been very clear as to the difficulty level I’m comfortable with, which is “attempt and fail it a few times, something less than ten perhaps, and assuming a reasonable level of player skill, victory will occur.”

You would have to try, you would have to learn, you would have to actively avoid as much as you could, but the odds would not be stacked against you, wipes would be uncommon, and so long as you are not just pressing 1 (unless you’re a Daredevil, in which case, press away), you would be able to clear the content.

I get that not everyone can beat a raid. But it’s ok to have varying levels of difficulty in content. And it’s ok to have different rewards for different content. Especially rewards that don’t give a statistical advantage.

Yes, and that’s exactly why we’re asking for varying levels of raid difficulty.

Everything you want is in other areas of the game. Epic open world boss fights. Forgiving instanced content. Interesting boss mechanics. Raids cater to a different player base.

Yes, and so would easy mode raids, which is what we’re asking for.

At any point during any event in this game are you guaranteed success ?
Does that success mean you cannot partake in the event ?

You are not guaranteed success, but for most of them, success is highly likely, and those where it isn’t are often criticized for that. And “accessibility” does not only mean that you can partake in it and fail, it means that you can partake in it with a reasonable chance of success. I mean, a staircase is “wheelchair accessible” by the standard that it’s possible to get a wheelchair up one if you try hard enough, but most would argue that it’s not nearly as easy as would be convenient.

Just being able to get through the door is not the standard of accessibility, the standard of accessibility is whether you can reasonably CLEAR the content.

Ohoni.6057:

You are not guaranteed success, but for most of them, success is highly likely, and those where it isn’t are often criticized for that. And “accessibility” does not only mean that you can partake in it and fail, it means that you can partake in it with a reasonable chance of success. I mean, a staircase is “wheelchair accessible” by the standard that it’s possible to get a wheelchair up one if you try hard enough, but most would argue that it’s not nearly as easy as would be convenient.

Just being able to get through the door is not the standard of accessibility, the standard of accessibility is whether you can reasonably CLEAR the content.

What if i told you, you can reasonably clear the content ?
What if i told you it would take you some time and willingness to learn, like everyone else does ? That if you want the rewards you’d have to earn them, like everyone else.

Well okay, i’d be lying, since you don’t want to clear the content, but for anyone else who actually wants to it’s possible and they’d be rewarded for doing so.

Just comes back to being a you problem, as proved. Accessibility for the raids are fine. If a level 30 can waltz into the raid, so can you.

I really look forward to the difficulty scaling announcement because then we can all be one big happy family.

What if i told you, you can reasonably clear the content ?

I would say that you are definitely wrong.

What if i told you it would take you some time and willingness to learn, like everyone else does ?

I would say that this is significantly more time than I care to spend on the task, which is why it falls outside the bounds of “reasonably.”

That if you want the rewards you’d have to earn them, like everyone else.

I’d be willing to, so long as I was able to earn them through content that I find as fun as you find raiding to be.

Just comes back to being a you problem, as proved. Accessibility for the raids are fine. If a level 30 can waltz into the raid, so can you.

Come back to me when you’ve cleared the raid on that level 30. Again, accessibility is not about walking through the front door, it’s about getting to your goal. In this case, it’s about beating all three bosses. If you can get through the front door but cannot beat the bosses, then the raid is not accessible to you.

Ohoni.6057:

What if i told you, you can reasonably clear the content ?

I would say that you are definitely wrong.

What if i told you it would take you some time and willingness to learn, like everyone else does ?

I would say that this is significantly more time than I care to spend on the task, which is why it falls outside the bounds of “reasonably.”

That if you want the rewards you’d have to earn them, like everyone else.

I’d be willing to, so long as I was able to earn them through content that I find as fun as you find raiding to be.

Just comes back to being a you problem, as proved. Accessibility for the raids are fine. If a level 30 can waltz into the raid, so can you.

Come back to me when you’ve cleared the raid on that level 30. Again, accessibility is not about walking through the front door, it’s about getting to your goal. In this case, it’s about beating all three bosses. If you can get through the front door but cannot beat the bosses, then the raid is not accessible to you.

That’s the thing. You can beat the bosses. You choose not to put forth the time and effort to do so. And if raiding takes longer than you have time for or can stand to be doing one particular activity or if it’s more difficult than your current skill level and you don’t consider it fun to raid at the current them, then that doesn’t make raids too difficult or inaccessible. Nor does that in and of itself make you lazy or a bad player.

But when you ask for the rewards from the raids to be given out for less difficulty than ANet designed them be given out for just so you can say you can get the reward, then it starts looking like you’re lazy or a bad player. And perception is reality.

Can is the ability to do something. You have the ability to learn raids. You have the ability to do raids. You choose to not do raids. That doesn’t meant they are not accessible. It’s like when you were a kid and you asked the teacher: “Can I go to the bathroom?” and they politely remind you that it’s “May I go to the bathroom?”

Absurdo.8309:

If your main problem is organization, then perhaps raids aren’t for you. There’s plenty of other content that requires less organization. I don’t think easy mode will solve you problem.

I’m not so sure either, but still it’s better than nothing, as that will definitely not solve anything.

Absurdo.8309:

Not everyone can get to legendary pvp. Not everyone can beat arah. Not everyone can do all the jumping puzzles. That doesn’t mean that we need an easy mode for this content.

There are no rewards locked behind any of this. All have easier alternatives. The “easy mode”.

Ohoni.6057:

What if i told you, you can reasonably clear the content ?

I would say that you are definitely wrong.

What if i told you it would take you some time and willingness to learn, like everyone else does ?

I would say that this is significantly more time than I care to spend on the task, which is why it falls outside the bounds of “reasonably.”

That if you want the rewards you’d have to earn them, like everyone else.

I’d be willing to, so long as I was able to earn them through content that I find as fun as you find raiding to be.

Just comes back to being a you problem, as proved. Accessibility for the raids are fine. If a level 30 can waltz into the raid, so can you.

Come back to me when you’ve cleared the raid on that level 30. Again, accessibility is not about walking through the front door, it’s about getting to your goal. In this case, it’s about beating all three bosses. If you can get through the front door but cannot beat the bosses, then the raid is not accessible to you.

Accessibility has nothing to do with getting you goal…dear lord. Accesible Definition

If you’re going to argue, at least refrain from fallacies. They make your arguments have 0 merit.

At the end of the day, this is still a YOU issue. Not a raid issue.

I almost wonder, if you put half as much time into raiding as you do complaining if you would have full cleared both wings by now…..Just a thought.

TexZero.7910:

At the end of the day, this is still a YOU issue. Not a raid issue.

You’re right, it’s not a raid issue. It’s a game issue. Raids do well what they are meant to do, it’s just hurting the rest of the game. And yes, it’s mostly due to them creating personal issues for a large part of the game population.

TexZero.7910:

I almost wonder, if you put half as much time into raiding as you do complaining if you would have full cleared both wings by now…..

maybe, but i would have definitely lost on fun. Not that arguing in this forum is fun, mind you.

That’s the thing. You can beat the bosses. You choose not to put forth the time and effort to do so.

Yes, we agree on that. But the point was not whether it could be achieved, but whether it could reasonably be achieved, and achieving it would take an unreasonable amount of time and effort (short of being carried).

And if raiding takes longer than you have time for or can stand to be doing one particular activity or if it’s more difficult than your current skill level and you don’t consider it fun to raid at the current them, then that doesn’t make raids too difficult or inaccessible.

It clearly does for me, which is why I’m asking for an alternative version that would not require that level of time and commitment.

Can is the ability to do something. You have the ability to learn raids. You have the ability to do raids. You choose to not do raids. That doesn’t meant they are not accessible.

And most people in wheelchairs can get up a staircase if they really put the effort into it, that does not mean that it is accessible to them.

Accessibility has nothing to do with getting you goal…dear lord. Accesible Definition

So if you have a building, a four story walk-up, but the door is on a ground level, you would call an office on the top floor of that building “wheelchair accessible?” I would advise you not to. “Accessibility” has nothing to do with being able to enter, it’s to do with being able to complete.

I almost wonder, if you put half as much time into raiding as you do complaining if you would have full cleared both wings by now…..Just a thought.

Yeah, maybe, but that’s not what I want to do.

Astralporing.1957:

You’re right, it’s not a raid issue. It’s a game issue. Raids do well what they are meant to do, it’s just hurting the rest of the game. And yes, it’s mostly due to them creating personal issues for a large part of the game population.

I beg to differ, what hurts the rest of the game is the game itself, not raids.

They’ve gutted and abandoned dungeons which should not have happened. They’ve changed the fractal experience to be utter garbage, granted this is in part due to the player base doing swamps of the mists as its the path of least resistance. Additionally, they’ve yet to do anything good to facilitate community/guild finding. For the final nail in whats wrong with the game, the one everyone knows is bad, LFG. It’s a hack of a solution for the actual problem.

But sure lets, blame it on raids as they are the new thing. Don’t worry, we’ve all seen this before as not even 4 weeks ago it was blame it on eSports. Heck i wouldn’t be surprised if it comes back to the blame eSports thing in 3 weeks now that S2 is underway.

Astralporing.1957:

Mostly it’s the time and organizational commitment. I could maybe get my guild to organize so that there are 10 people ready at the same time, but only for an attempt with a reasonable chance of succeeding. Which, we both know, is not going to happen unless everyone is already experienced. And i’m in this game to play with my friends, so i’m not going to look for a guild full of people i don’t care about either.

So it sounds like raids aren’t the content you should be tackling or attempting to tackle.

These raids were explicitly constructed to be a good challenge for a dedicated group. If you want to tackle them, you’ll need to put out the effort to find a dedicated group.

Astralporing.1957:

There’s a “small”, secondary gate in form of needing the right gear too, but i bet i’m going to hear now that not only it’s easily passed, but is not even a gate because even a total noob should be able to do it in exotics.

Well, yeah. It’s easily passed. Thanks for beating me to the punch.

Really, though, Ascended is one of the game’s long-term goals and there’s no reason for you not to be addressing it before you enter raids. “Well I just want to go straight into the raids!” there’s your problem. Chill, master other content first, get yourself up to snuff and then go tackle the raids.

Astralporing.1957:

As the main problem in Raids is time and organization, no changes to Dungeons or Fractals are going to help there.

No, dungeons and fractals can’t fix your schedule. If scheduling is a problem, which for most people it shouldn’t be, then the content’s not really for you.

Are you a doctor on call or something like that?

Astralporing.1957:

Oh no, it’s exactly because raids are a wall. A wall that has been specifically designed to prevent as many players as possible from even trying, just so remaining ones can feel better.

Uhhhh what.

It’s literally
Get ascended gear of your stats: I did this a year ago idk about you
Get some scheduling done: Needing friends for this content is exactly the appeal

That’s it. You can now make attempts and I look forward to your first VG kill.

I am all for raids, I think players should have their little sand box to play in and whatever makes them feel special and important, my only issue with a raid at this point, is it’s impact on World Collections, notably Legendary Armor.

Give players an alternate means to get that collection, and I’ll be happy. Have your super hard raids and elite content, enjoy!

STIHL.2489:

I am all for raids, I think players should have their little sand box to play in and whatever makes them feel special and important, my only issue with a raid at this point, is it’s impact on World Collections, notably Legendary Armor.

not everyone is supposed to get every legendary

They’ve gutted and abandoned dungeons which should not have happened. They’ve changed the fractal experience to be utter garbage, granted this is in part due to the player base doing swamps of the mists as its the path of least resistance. Additionally, they’ve yet to do anything good to facilitate community/guild finding. For the final nail in whats wrong with the game, the one everyone knows is bad, LFG. It’s a hack of a solution for the actual problem.

But sure lets, blame it on raids as they are the new thing. Don’t worry, we’ve all seen this before as not even 4 weeks ago it was blame it on eSports. Heck i wouldn’t be surprised if it comes back to the blame eSports thing in 3 weeks now that S2 is underway.

LFG is a mess. I am 100% with you on improving LFG. The only part I disagree with you is your insistence that fixing LFG would in any way address the complaints being raids about raids. I also have plenty of issues with eSports and PvP, and while I don’t personally Fractal much, I agree with a lot of the complaints about how it encourages “limited” play of them, and would welcome moves to resolve that.

The complaints about raise are genuine and complete, they are not a distraction or side-effect of other issues, and they will remain until they are resolved. They might rise and fall as raids get more or less attention compared to other issues, but that doesn’t mean the interest in getting them fixed has vanished, just that the news cycle tends to shift over time. Stop waiting for this to just go away on its own, it will not. Either work to resolve it or just accept that it’s an unresolved issue that you don’t care about and move on.

Ohoni.6057:

They’ve gutted and abandoned dungeons which should not have happened. They’ve changed the fractal experience to be utter garbage, granted this is in part due to the player base doing swamps of the mists as its the path of least resistance. Additionally, they’ve yet to do anything good to facilitate community/guild finding. For the final nail in whats wrong with the game, the one everyone knows is bad, LFG. It’s a hack of a solution for the actual problem.

But sure lets, blame it on raids as they are the new thing. Don’t worry, we’ve all seen this before as not even 4 weeks ago it was blame it on eSports. Heck i wouldn’t be surprised if it comes back to the blame eSports thing in 3 weeks now that S2 is underway.

LFG is a mess. I am 100% with you on improving LFG. The only part I disagree with you is your insistence that fixing LFG would in any way address the complaints being raids about raids. I also have plenty of issues with eSports and PvP, and while I don’t personally Fractal much, I agree with a lot of the complaints about how it encourages “limited” play of them, and would welcome moves to resolve that.

The complaints about raise are genuine and complete, they are not a distraction or side-effect of other issues, and they will remain until they are resolved. They might rise and fall as raids get more or less attention compared to other issues, but that doesn’t mean the interest in getting them fixed has vanished, just that the news cycle tends to shift over time. Stop waiting for this to just go away on its own, it will not. Either work to resolve it or just accept that it’s an unresolved issue that you don’t care about and move on.

Sorry, but no.

Not all complaints are genuine. OR are you forgetting your “Lol no” response from earlier ?

There’s problems with fluidity in the game, moving people from easier content to more challenging content. The changes you want have nothing to do with that. There’s problems with group finding. Again, your changes have nothing to do with that either.

Those should be your talking points, not rewards, not how you don’t care, not how raids aren’t for you, not how you hate failing, not how you want raids to be a 10 minute affair, those are not legitimate concerns.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

I am all for raids, I think players should have their little sand box to play in and whatever makes them feel special and important, my only issue with a raid at this point, is it’s impact on World Collections, notably Legendary Armor.

not everyone is supposed to get every legendary

You could look at it that way, not a smart way to look at it from the Developer/Company Poi, but to be fair, it is a very common gamer view.

In the reality of things, from a broader scope, Casuals make up the bulk of the gaming industry, and MMO’s are coming out all the time, just looking to snatch them up. For the Hardcore players, most of them are moving to MOBA’s where the real challenge is, against another player. So, in a game as PvE as GW2, can they afford to alienate their Casuals?

Well, we will find out, one way or another, sooner or later.

I’ve said my bit. Not open for discussion or debate really, my feelings won’t change, and I don’t think yours will either.

Good day.

STIHL.2489:

You could look at it that way, not a smart way to look at it from the Developer/Company Poi, but to be fair, it is a very common gamer view.

Oh, perhaps you know more than Anet’s developing/marketing team?

STIHL.2489:

In the reality of things, from a broader scope, Casuals make up the bulk of the gaming industry, and MMO’s are coming out all the time, just looking to snatch them up.

Do you have evidence regarding this? Are you saying you know more about marketing than this company? Or… Should we just take your word on this subject?

STIHL.2489:

For the Hardcore players, most of them are moving to MOBA’s where the real challenge is, against another player. So, in a game as PvE as GW2, can they afford to alienate their Casuals?

While MOBA’s make up the majority of online gaming this is speculation. This is not a fact. It is not fair to assume that every “hardcore” player wishes to PvP. Perhaps Anet can not afford to alienate their hardcore players since the ALL OTHER CONTENT caters to the casual player. Perhaps Anet is trying to cater to a wider audience to rack in more money as a business. Who knows… Well… I’m sure they know.

STIHL.2489:

I’ve said my bit. Not open for discussion or debate really, my feelings won’t change, and I don’t think yours will either.

Well, debates and discussions usually require one to back up their points. You do make a lot of points though….lots of points….

Not all complaints are genuine. OR are you forgetting your “Lol no” response from earlier ?

I’m afraid I do forget what it was in reference to, but if you need explanation I can provide it.

There’s problems with fluidity in the game, moving people from easier content to more challenging content. The changes you want have nothing to do with that. There’s problems with group finding. Again, your changes have nothing to do with that either.

True, nor have I ever claimed they were. My changes are about fixing different things entirely. I don’t have any trouble finding groups when I want one, and I don’t have any trouble with content fluidity. If those are things you want to discuss, you can, but they are not my problems, which is why I’m not really discussing them unless asked directly.