Guild Wars 2

STIHL.2489:

Absurdo.8309:

Regardless, we’ve veered off the topic of easy mode raids, which we both apparently agree is unnecessary.

Nope. I think that unless there is a Hard Gear Check, making them un-disputable End-Game content then they should be Open to the Public, Easy Mode and all.

How do you come to that conclusion? Raids are already an un-disputable end-game content and that is “enforced” by their difficulty. Why add a hard gear check when the difficulty is already doing the job?

GoldenTruth.2853:

Myself and others have already discussed the fault in your logic.

All you have really done is whine that it would impede your ability to play the way you want, since you don’t care that others have only asked for the same, Not feeling it.

Not caring either.

STIHL.2489:

GoldenTruth.2853:

Myself and others have already discussed the fault in your logic.

All you have really done is whine that it would impede your ability to play the way you want, since you don’t care that others have only asked for the same, Not feeling it.

Not caring either.

OK, people have addressed your gear check proposal at face value, and you’ve yet to respond to any of the arguments (in summary: most bosses are not dps checks, the content itself filters players, it punishes players with alts, it reduces experimentation, and it chills fun runs).

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. You claimed this was not a petty response just because we oppose easy mode raids. I see I was mistaken in taking your suggestion at face value

STIHL.2489:

GoldenTruth.2853:

Myself and others have already discussed the fault in your logic.

All you have really done is whine that it would impede your ability to play the way you want, since you don’t care that others have only asked for the same, Not feeling it.

Not caring either.

Not sure at what point I have “whined”, as all I have done is present downsides to your proposal (I even gave a less intrusive alternative). At this point it is clear that you are either unwilling or unable to address these issues, and it is clear from the posts responding to you that far more people disagree to your proposal than agree (1 person a agreed out of what sounded like spite, multiple people from both sides disagreed).

There is no real need for myself or others to further respond to your proposal, or at least until you address these issues. Luckily, Anet doesn’t tend to take a created system and make it more restricted (which may be an argument for why easy mode may be seen in the future.

Also, I assume that if you do respond, similar to you previous responses it will take a single sentence from the above (probably the part about whining, or this part right here), that won’t address the actual issues proposed. I have little plans on responding back if that is the case.

STIHL.2489:

In fact, at one time, I was under the illusion that Raids should have been more Accessible, mainly because I thought they were supposed to just be “Content” if you will “80th level Content” akin to any other content of that level range. just a 10 man 80th level Dungeon, like Honor of the Waves just with 10 people.

Can’t really think of how being level 80 and having 10 people isn’t already accessible enough…albeit without some semblance of gear and builds you won’t get too far without being godly at PvE.

STIHL.2489:

But then I paused and asked a very powerful question, one that would set my next move. See, I asked “Are Raids Supposed to be End-Game Content” and the answer was informative and eye opening.

As long as you got the whole quote-

STIHL.2489:

From the Mouth of the Developers themselves.

“Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2.”

You missed a part. Of course you did, deliberately since you took from a fellow poster. Lemme fix the quote for you:

“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.”

Do you know what Ultimate challenge and Ultimate test mean? It also specifically mentions end-game so…right this goes right into your next points.

STIHL.2489:

This changed everything for me. I realized my mistake, and I also realized that, their biggest flaw in this design was to allow people the Illusion they could enter with a 70th level player and have even the slimiest, most remotest chance to survive. That the reason why we are having this discussion at all, is because Anet failed to set a Hard Requirement to enter, and thus deceiving people that this is intended to be available to them.

It’s Not

There was no illusion here, it was plain as day, clear as crystal and understood so well I wondered why they needed to re-emphasize ‘Ultimate’ twice. No one is bringing their ‘F-game’ level 70 into a raid, which is considered end-game content according to the devs to give to skilled PvE players. The lack of a mentioned ‘requirement’ wasn’t because Arenanet was being lazy, there was not a need for one when you hype up the challenge to this extent. And they actually delivered on their hype (for once), Raids were actually what they said they would be.

STIHL.2489:

Nor was it ever intended, and that was their flaw.

No one got deceived by this. This is why we are actually having this discussion, people are actually a hell of a lot less skilled or just plain lazy to go into a raid. If the ultimate challenge in PvE end-game was a cake-walk, that would be more of a failed design.

STIHL.2489:

Difficulty is not enough, that just makes people bitter, that just makes people feel resentment, and that is what starts these hundreds if not in the thousands by now. Posts.

Yep, though if I may, I would wager a non-insignificant minority of these bitter/frustrated posts are made by a very few individuals.

STIHL.2489:

The flaw was they failed so say clearly “You Must Meet this Requirement To Enter”

Even IF the post were originally as you posted, I fail to see how things like ‘elite’ and ‘unlike anything we’ve previously released’ weren’t already big warning flags. Honestly, people can’t read. That’s not on the devs, that’s people being the usual.

STIHL.2489:

Had they put that in, had they made it clear that nothing short of a complete character was going to even be able to do this, there would be no illusions about what the Raid was intended to do and be.

You would have a point here if the raid was so tightly tuned that it were impossible to complete without the extra stats. It’s a darn shame that players have done it in full exotics, with less than 10 players, in different strategies (Nomad Tempest VG, no updraft Gorseval).

STIHL.2489:

It would have been easy on everyone, no one would have to feel bad about kicking someone for not being optimal, or not fully prepared, they need to have their “Bane Resist” to play this dungeon.

Following the previous point, then you have groups in full ascended who absolutely fail at the raid, who cannot master rotations or figure out mechanics if their lives depended on it. Turns out a gear check is entirely pointless thanks in part to the design of the raid.

STIHL.2489:

When they get that, then they can play.

It sets a goal for everyone, lets them know clearly if they are ready or not.

It’s a lofty ideal but carries poor implementation here. Fractals are the exact reason why gear-checks were a bad system for the game, Agony itself is proof your ‘gear-check’ concept is bad for PvE end-game health.

STIHL.2489:

Upleveling in fractals just starts topics like this: Why you kick me?

Case in point.

STIHL.2489:

Raids really needed that “Meet this Bar to Enter” to ensure everyone and anyone knew exactly what this content was, what it’s intention was, and where they stood with their ability to do it.

They really don’t.

STIHL.2489:

In the end, I firmly believe had they put in a Hard Gear Check, this topic and others like it, never would have existed. What I don’t get, is why you don’t see that as well?

They would continue to exist, people are always looking for an easy way to get rewards. It doesn’t matter.

You don’t put training wheels on a racing motorcycle.

IndigoSundown.5419:

You don’t put training wheels on a racing motorcycle.

But not all bikes are racing ones. And even on a racing motorcycle you can take it easy, you don’t need to participate in races.

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You don’t put training wheels on a racing motorcycle.

But not all bikes are racing ones. And even on a racing motorcycle you can take it easy, you don’t need to participate in races.

But you do have to race to get the checkered flag.

Astralporing.1957:

And even on a racing motorcycle you can take it easy, you don’t need to participate in races.

Even in the current raids you can take it easy, you don’t need to participate in the progression race.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You don’t put training wheels on a racing motorcycle.

But not all bikes are racing ones. And even on a racing motorcycle you can take it easy, you don’t need to participate in races.

But you do have to race to get the checkered flag.

Nope, i can buy one from the shop.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You don’t put training wheels on a racing motorcycle.

But not all bikes are racing ones. And even on a racing motorcycle you can take it easy, you don’t need to participate in races.

But you do have to race to get the checkered flag.

Nope, i can buy one from the shop.

You can buy runs through the Raid too, if you can’t manage it yourself just purchase kills from guilds.

Astralporing.1957:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You don’t put training wheels on a racing motorcycle.

But not all bikes are racing ones.

Correct. There are lots of bikes and you can ride them on tons of roads. There are only a few races.

What if we made raids accesible for squads larger than 10 players and give bigger groups (15?) lower rewards?

In that case, anet does not have to rework that much of the raid. The teams could learn the mechanics, get the better gear and gradually build down the players to 10.

What do you guys think?

Guys Anet have axed new Legendary Weapons can we please stop asking them to add to their workload now? I do not want them to try and stretch to extra difficulty settings then close the whole thing down.

Put some practice in and do the raids as is, we just saw this week how delicate things are with balancing commitments.

MatthijsB.4731:

What if we made raids accesible for squads larger than 10 players and give bigger groups (15?) lower rewards?

In that case, anet does not have to rework that much of the raid. The teams could learn the mechanics, get the better gear and gradually build down the players to 10.

What do you guys think?

A fixed raid size higher than 10 has its benefits, without necessarily reducing the reward rate. Simply having more people allows you to be more flexible with your group composition. This doesn’t really make the boss much harder- at least, at any level that would be appreciable enough that you would want to adjust rewards. They can balance around the higher raid size after all.

Alternatively, ANet could possibly look into creating a scaling system a lot like WoW’s where you could have 10 people in the raid or 30 in the raid and the boss’s health and abilities would increase or decrease respectively. I think this is probably the best long-term option, and it gives both players and guilds a lot of leeway in how they want to tackle the content.

You can buy runs through the Raid too, if you can’t manage it yourself just purchase kills from guilds.

Again, that’s a system that just benefits the players who can do it, and incentivizes them to fight the democratization of the raids. “Pay another player to get you through it” should NEVER be the answer, there should always be ways for the player to get themselves through it.

What if we made raids accesible for squads larger than 10 players and give bigger groups (15?) lower rewards?

In that case, anet does not have to rework that much of the raid. The teams could learn the mechanics, get the better gear and gradually build down the players to 10.

That might make it more likely that the team could get through it with 3-6 members lying on the ground by the end of it, but it still doesn’t seem fun for those members on the ground. I still think the solution needs to involve making it actually be more fun for the average player, more achievable through their own efforts.

Guys Anet have axed new Legendary Weapons can we please stop asking them to add to their workload now?

They axed legendary weapons because they did not believe that feature was providing as much content to the average player as it required in work. Easy mode raiding would provide more content to the average player for the workload than pretty much any other option available to them. It seems something more likely to happen because they axed legendaries, not less.

Alternatively, ANet could possibly look into creating a scaling system a lot like WoW’s where you could have 10 people in the raid or 30 in the raid and the boss’s health and abilities would increase or decrease respectively. I think this is probably the best long-term option, and it gives both players and guilds a lot of leeway in how they want to tackle the content.

But it would make balancing a lot harder since there would be so many new variations to consider. They have enough trouble balancing for a fixed ten-man size.

Ohoni.6057:

You can buy runs through the Raid too, if you can’t manage it yourself just purchase kills from guilds.

Again, that’s a system that just benefits the players who can do it, and incentivizes them to fight the democratization of the raids. “Pay another player to get you through it” should NEVER be the answer, there should always be ways for the player to get themselves through it.

There are ways (called doing the raid instead of spending hours on forums asking for nerfs), you don’t want to do that so just buy the raid instead of endangering raids with extra development workloads (we saw this week how that can end).

Ohoni you are very much in the minority in this thread, you call what you’re asking for “democratisation” of raids – well you should see here you’re being out voted and stop trying to dictate the terms of raid development.

You have options to get what you want, stop trying to willfully endanger raids.

Ohoni you are very much in the minority in this thread, you call what you’re asking for “democratisation” of raids – well you should see here you’re being out voted and stop trying to dictate the terms of raid development.

If you believe that the “majority” in this thread matters for anything then you have no clue what this game is about.

Just look at WoW LFR.
It has disincentivized casual players to progress to higher difficulties. They’ve seen LFR (which is an afk-fest), they’ve seen the story, the end-game, they’ve done it all, so why try harder?
Blizz has even removed good tier gear from LFR, and people still go there, faceroll that, and forget about the raid.
I say there shouldn’t be an easy mode, haven’t played the gw2 raids yet, but as far as i can see they’re much easier than most mythic encounters (and fewer) in WoW’s current raid dungeon.
The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.
So plz no, pretty plz

Just look at WoW LFR.
It has disincentivized casual players to progress to higher difficulties. They’ve seen LFR (which is an afk-fest), they’ve seen the story, the end-game, they’ve done it all, so why try harder?

I’m honestly very tired of the growling about LFR. I do not care. If people are happy with LFR raids and don’t want to move up to higher raids, then that is fine, they are playing how they want to play, and it’s not a problem that they aren’t playing how you might want them to play.

End of story on LFR, now let’s get back to GW2.

CasualWanderer.5824:

Blizz has even removed good tier gear from LFR, and people still go there, faceroll that, and forget about the raid.

Well, that depends on how you slice it. Before they added valor, LFR was a ghost town, and on quite a few bosses because there were no competent people in the raid, they still failed and pushed 6+ determination, including 10 determination on Archi.

CasualWanderer.5824:

Just look at WoW LFR.
It has disincentivized casual players to progress to higher difficulties. They’ve seen LFR (which is an afk-fest), they’ve seen the story, the end-game, they’ve done it all, so why try harder?
Blizz has even removed good tier gear from LFR, and people still go there, faceroll that, and forget about the raid.

Have you considered the possibility, that it may be so because those people do not really like raids in the first place?

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Astralporing.1957:

Why?

Because effort have value. Take for example tennis. I like playing tennis. If I beat someone that is better than me in a hard fought match, I will feel good, I will feel happy and proud of myself. If I beat a 5 year old that never played before, I don’t feel good, or happy or proud of me. I just feel normal.

It’s the same with the content. If I add to practice and improve myself to beat the content and that i got a unique skin from it, I will feel good, happy and proud of myself and that unique reward will represent for me that effort. It will add value to that item, it will be more valuable to me.

Let’s keep in mind that the strenght of the gear isn’t important in GW2. So the only 2 things that give value to items are rarity and looks. And by giving the same reward to an easier version, you remove the value from rarity and just keep the looks. Not all good looking item should be rare, but there is good reason to also have good looking rare items.

Astralporing.1957:

Why?

Nothing worth having comes easy?

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

Astralporing.1957:

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

See there is different opinions on the subject. Some people like that a game push them to put effort. They find that rewarding. They have good feeling when it happen. The effort they put in earning those item, grant value to those item. It’s like that in life and it’s like that in video game too. So we ask that from our games.

Other people don’t like that and it’s their opinion and they can ask that from their games too. Both side ask mutually exclusive stuff and the company need to take a decision in which side they prefer to go.

There is no right or wrong answer there. Just different players having different taste.

Astralporing.1957:

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

This logic extends to everything. Why should anything in the game require effort?

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

So you shoud be able to just log in and buy anything from an NPC for 1C because it’s a game, not work, and you shouldn’t have to work for anything?

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

So you shoud be able to just log in and buy anything from an NPC for 1C because it’s a game, not work, and you shouldn’t have to work for anything?

I have no problem putting an effort for something… as long as it’s fun. It’s just some people seem to think that having fun in a game is somehow a crime and getting anywhere should be as painful as possible.

Because effort have value. Take for example tennis. I like playing tennis. If I beat someone that is better than me in a hard fought match, I will feel good, I will feel happy and proud of myself. If I beat a 5 year old that never played before, I don’t feel good, or happy or proud of me. I just feel normal.

Yes, and if you beat that hard mode raid, then you will feel good about that, and nobody is trying to take that away, but if that five year old gets beat by the hard mode raid, then he won’t feel good about that, why not let him have another five year old opponent that can give him the same feeling of even competition you feel against the hard mode raids?

Again, nobody is saying that everybody should have to play the easy mode raids, if they don’t interest you, you never have to touch them. They exist for people who are NOT YOU.

Thaddeus.4891:

Astralporing.1957:

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

See there is different opinions on the subject. Some people like that a game push them to put effort. They find that rewarding. They have good feeling when it happen. The effort they put in earning those item, grant value to those item. It’s like that in life and it’s like that in video game too. So we ask that from our games.

Other people don’t like that and it’s their opinion and they can ask that from their games too. Both side ask mutually exclusive stuff and the company need to take a decision in which side they prefer to go.

There is no right or wrong answer there. Just different players having different taste.

ANet has obviously come to this conclusion also. Thus, we have content for those who want hard, and content for those who want easier. The problem comes in when someone wants all of the game’s content for themselves, and who think that they need access to rewards aimed at a different group.

Exactly. As soon as those who like to raid insist that the raid loot can ONLY be for them, that nobody else can have it, we start running into problems. The solution is obviously to have multiple paths to the rewards so that each group can find the path best suited to their tastes.

Ohoni.6057:

Exactly. As soon as those who like to raid insist that the raid loot can ONLY be for them, that nobody else can have it, we start running into problems. The solution is obviously to have multiple paths to the rewards so that each group can find the path best suited to their tastes.

You’re wrong. We just don’t want people to have the same thing as us but with à fraction of our effort. You fail to understand that because you don’t want to put some effort (and your ratio of 1/3 between easy and hard reward is not logical since again your infantile mode is much more easier than hard mode)

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thaddeus.4891:

Astralporing.1957:

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

See there is different opinions on the subject. Some people like that a game push them to put effort. They find that rewarding. They have good feeling when it happen. The effort they put in earning those item, grant value to those item. It’s like that in life and it’s like that in video game too. So we ask that from our games.

Other people don’t like that and it’s their opinion and they can ask that from their games too. Both side ask mutually exclusive stuff and the company need to take a decision in which side they prefer to go.

There is no right or wrong answer there. Just different players having different taste.

ANet has obviously come to this conclusion also. Thus, we have content for those who want hard, and content for those who want easier. The problem comes in when someone wants all of the game’s content for themselves, and who think that they need access to rewards aimed at a different group.

Exactly, some people just have to understand that they can’t have all reward in the game if the rewards are not aimed at them…

You’re wrong. We just don’t want people to have the same thing as us but with à fraction of our effort.

But nobody’s asking for that. My proposal, at least, involves equivalent effort. Less challenge over greater time. It’s like a pulley system, if you have a 500lb. block, then lifting it 5ft off the ground can be very difficult and require a great deal of strength. But if you wrap some rope around some pulleys, then you can apply only a small amount of pressure, and start pulling on the rope through dozens of feet of rope, in order to lift the block five feet off the ground. You have to pull for longer, but using less strength on each pull, but the overall effort is conserved.

Exactly, some people just have to understand that they can’t have all reward in the game if the rewards are not aimed at them…

Why? Why shouldn’t rewards be for everyone who wants it?

Ohoni.6057:

You’re wrong. We just don’t want people to have the same thing as us but with à fraction of our effort.

But nobody’s asking for that. My proposal, at least, involves equivalent effort. Less challenge over greater time. It’s like a pulley system, if you have a 500lb. block, then lifting it 5ft off the ground can be very difficult and require a great deal of strength. But if you wrap some rope around some pulleys, then you can apply only a small amount of pressure, and start pulling on the rope through dozens of feet of rope, in order to lift the block five feet off the ground. You have to pull for longer, but using less strength on each pull, but the overall effort is conserved.

Exactly, some people just have to understand that they can’t have all reward in the game if the rewards are not aimed at them…

Why? Why shouldn’t rewards be for everyone who wants it?

Your proposal is to have the same reward in easy mode as in hard mode with just some more time. If you want to be logical, the ratio skill/time should be the same between easy and hard raid. And since your easy mode needs almost no skill (same as most pve open world) the time spent has to be far longer than hard mode.

Rewards are not for everyone, because by définition they reward you for doing something. If you dont want to do that thing, that’s fine but dont ask for the reward ^^

Your proposal is to have the same reward in easy mode as in hard mode with just some more time.

Yes.

If you want to be logical, the ratio skill/time should be the same between easy and hard raid.

Ideally, yes.

And since your easy mode needs almost no skill (same as most pve open world) the time spent has to be far longer than hard mode.

You’re applying your own value judgements here. You are valuing the skill needed for raids at a certain level, and the skill needed to complete most content at another level, and making the subjective judgement that the “worth” of hard mode raider skills is WAY above the “worth” of standard content skills. You’re basically saying “the thing I can do, that’s worth $1000, while that thing you want to do, that’s only worth $1, so clearly you don’t deserve anywhere near what I deserve. Because I say so.” That may be what you believe, but is not any sort of universal quality measurement.

Personally, I believe that the skill required to beat a current raid is interesting, but is not important, it is not something that is of value to anyone other than the person who has it, so while it can be rewarded more, there’s no justification for it to award way more than anything else. It’s like I can’t eat as many hotdogs as a world champ hotdog eater, but I don’t believe that would entitle that hotdog eater to demand a huge amount of money for his talents. If someone does decide to give him a reward, he should be grateful, not assume it as his God-given right as a great hotdog eater.

Rewards are not for everyone, because by définition they reward you for doing something. If you dont want to do that thing, that’s fine but dont ask for the reward ^^

Why not? If it’s something that you want, but the associated task is not something you’d want to do, why not ask for an alternative method of earning it? You just keep saying things along this line as if the answer is self evident, “because.” Well beyond three-year-olds, that’s just not a good answer to any question.

Hmm, this my came off topic, but does anyone know how many times the bosses in Salvation Pass need to be killed to complete collection #7-#12 for the Legendary Armor? For example, I know that Gorseval needs to be killed 5 times for the first wing, but I haven’t really started doing collection for wing 2, so I’m asking here.

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

So you shoud be able to just log in and buy anything from an NPC for 1C because it’s a game, not work, and you shouldn’t have to work for anything?

I have no problem putting an effort for something… as long as it’s fun. It’s just some people seem to think that having fun in a game is somehow a crime and getting anywhere should be as painful as possible.

Other people’s definition of fun just differs from yours, clearly.

LegACy.1296:

Hmm, this my came off topic, but does anyone know how many times the bosses in Salvation Pass need to be killed to complete collection #7-#12 for the Legendary Armor? For example, I know that Gorseval needs to be killed 5 times for the first wing, but I haven’t really started doing collection for wing 2, so I’m asking here.

Just need to kill all wing 2 bosses once. The main thing you need to make sure to get is the water from standing in the fountain after a matthias kill, as this doesnt work in a newly opened cleared instance (similar to the chest from the pre-gorseval torch event)

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

So you shoud be able to just log in and buy anything from an NPC for 1C because it’s a game, not work, and you shouldn’t have to work for anything?

I have no problem putting an effort for something… as long as it’s fun. It’s just some people seem to think that having fun in a game is somehow a crime and getting anywhere should be as painful as possible.

Other people’s definition of fun just differs from yours, clearly.

Clearly. Problem is, those other people seem to think theirs is the only definition.

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

So you shoud be able to just log in and buy anything from an NPC for 1C because it’s a game, not work, and you shouldn’t have to work for anything?

I have no problem putting an effort for something… as long as it’s fun. It’s just some people seem to think that having fun in a game is somehow a crime and getting anywhere should be as painful as possible.

Other people’s definition of fun just differs from yours, clearly.

Clearly. Problem is, those other people seem to think theirs is the only definition.

You don’t need to find raids fun, other people do. Your definition of fun should not be used to endanger a game mode people already enjoy.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

Fermi.2409:

Astralporing.1957:

CasualWanderer.5824:

The player HAS to make effort in order to get cool stuff, kill the baddest bad guys in this bad*ss instance and show it all off.

Why?

Why should you be rewarded for not putting in any effort?

Because it’s not work? I have enough of this in RL already, don’t need to repeat it in a kitten game.

So you shoud be able to just log in and buy anything from an NPC for 1C because it’s a game, not work, and you shouldn’t have to work for anything?

I have no problem putting an effort for something… as long as it’s fun. It’s just some people seem to think that having fun in a game is somehow a crime and getting anywhere should be as painful as possible.

Other people’s definition of fun just differs from yours, clearly.

Clearly. Problem is, those other people seem to think theirs is the only definition.

You don’t need to find raids fun, other people do. Your definition of fun should not be used to endanger a game mode people already enjoy.

If the people running raids currently truly do enjoy that, then a suggestion of introducing the easy mode does not endager the current game mode at all.

It can only do so if people either would enjoy easy mode more, or are running raids for reasons other than fun they can get from that content.

You don’t need to find raids fun, other people do. Your definition of fun should not be used to endanger a game mode people already enjoy.

And nobody is suggesting endangering a game more that people already enjoy, that mode will be left 100% intact.

Just because you enjoy that game mode is no reason to not add another game mode that plenty of other people would enjoy just as much.

GoldenTruth.2853:

LegACy.1296:

…but does anyone know how many times the bosses in Salvation Pass need to be killed to complete collection #7-#12 for the Legendary Armor?

Just need to kill all wing 2 bosses once.

All right, thanks for the info. I think this settles one thing regarding ANet’s direction…

For the foreseeable future, even if there’s an easier mode for raid, player will NOT be able to get Legendary armor from that mode. (note: this is ANet’s current consideration/plan/design, not mine)

A short summary of how I get to that conclusion:
Basically anet see “clear the raid” as the requirement for getting legendary armor, NOT “grind the raid”. If Anet saw “grind the raid” as the requirement, if they make easier mode, they can simply make it so the requirement is either “grind the normal raid” OR “grind the easier raid longer”. But since the requirement is “clearing”, even if there’s an easier mode, the requirement can only be “clear the normal raid”, since there’s no equivalent of that requirement on easy mode.

Longer thought:
Initially I was theorizing about the actual implementation of “1/3 reward for easier mode” that Ohoni’s been proposing. 1/3 reward, which means the weekly shard cap is 33 instead of 100, which also means that players can only get ascended glove (the cheapest asc gear) after 5-6 weeks of raiding. Also lower chance of asc gear dropping. I got 40 LI and 4 or 5 asc gear from raid, which averages to 10-12% drop rate. So in Ohoni’s mode this will be 3.3-4% drop rate, which means player will get their first asc gear drop after 25-30 kills.

I’ll leave that discussion to another topic, and move on to another reward aspect: legendary armor collection. In Wing 1 we need to gather 5 spirit threads by killing gorseval 5 times, which means at best we can only get it after 5 weeks. In Ohoni’s mode player will need to kill Gorseval 15 times then, to gather 5 spirit threads, which means 15 weeks of killing gorseval, which is almost 4 months.

So far so good, since so far player needs to grind the raid to get legend armor, but problem is, on Wing 2 Anet changes their way of doing the armor collection. Instead of killing bosses multiple times, raider just need to kill the bosses once. Once a raider has cleared the wing, they can also pass the collection step. Which means for Anet, it isn’t important how many times a player do the raid, what’s important is that they cleared it.

Now that’s important. Anet has always like to “improve” stuff on the next iteration. Which means Wing 2 is closer to Anet’s ideal compared to Wing 1. This can be seen from how there’s no more achievement that’s similar to The Eternal achievement, or how the achi encourage new way to do the boss unlike the wing 1 achi.

So that means the wing 2 collection is closer to anet’s ideal compared to wing 1. Which means anet’s actual ideal is basically “legendary armors are for people who have cleared the current raid”, no raid grinding. And since easier mode supposedly “lengthen” the grind, it’s not compatible with anet’s ideal since there’s no actual grind involved.

For the foreseeable future, even if there’s an easier mode for raid, player will NOT be able to get Legendary armor from that mode. (note: this is ANet’s current consideration/plan/design, not mine)

Based on your reasoning, I could see that being the requirement they intended when they created the raid, just as their intent was to not have an easy mode at all, since they’ve given no hint of such a thing.

There’s no reason to believe that one or both of those intentions have not changed though, based on player reactions. It’s possible they have no intention at this point of making an easy mode, and it’s possible that even if they are planning an easy mode, they would not give it access to Legendary armor, but the opposite could be true in either case, it just depends on how their goals for the content may have changed over time. No battle plan survives first contact.

Ohoni’s been proposing. 1/3 reward, which means the weekly shard cap is 33 instead of 100,

Actually that isn’t exactly how mine would work. The cap would remain consistent, it’s just that instead of getting 50 total from clearing Spirit Vale, plus however many pity-shards you get from losing matches, which is the current amount, an easy mode player would only earn 17 shards for clearing the entire raid, and have no pity-shards, so that’s all he would get in a given week if all he did was Easy mode. Of course he could then go into hard mode and grind out pity shards if he liked, and eventually reach the 100 shard weekly cap.

But basically if he did easy mode all the way through, all he would get for his efforts is the equivalent of beating one boss plus maybe a few failed attempts in hard mode, or something like ten phase 2 fails on Vale Guardian.

In Ohoni’s mode player will need to kill Gorseval 15 times then, to gather 5 spirit threads, which means 15 weeks of killing gorseval, which is almost 4 months.

So far so good, but problem is, on Wing 2 Anet chances their way of doing the armor collection.

Keep in mind, even if it’s faster to do the things you’d need to in wing 2, taking only three weeks instead of one, you’d still need the 15 weeks of Gorseval killing, at minimum.

I don’t know, I’m flexible on exactly how it’s delivered, exactly what pacing, so long as it seems fair to both sides (and no, “you don’t get any” is not fair to both sides, and neither is “you can have it, but only after ten years.”) Anything that would take more than six months or so of steady effort, or more than a year of intermittent effort would be punitive, not justified.

LegACy.1296:

Basically anet see “clear the raid” as the requirement for getting legendary armor, NOT “grind the raid”.

Considering that the gifts for the last tier (the real legendary armor) will require a significant amount of insights (as anet said “if you raid from the beginning, you’d have enough for one set when the legendary armor gets released”) i’d say your assumption is dead wrong..

LegACy.1296:

GoldenTruth.2853:

LegACy.1296:

…but does anyone know how many times the bosses in Salvation Pass need to be killed to complete collection #7-#12 for the Legendary Armor?

Just need to kill all wing 2 bosses once.

All right, thanks for the info. I think this settles one thing regarding ANet’s direction…

For the foreseeable future, even if there’s an easier mode for raid, player will NOT be able to get Legendary armor from that mode. (note: this is ANet’s current consideration/plan/design, not mine)

A short summary of how I get to that conclusion:
Basically anet see “clear the raid” as the requirement for getting legendary armor, NOT “grind the raid”. If Anet saw “grind the raid” as the requirement, if they make easier mode, they can simply make it so the requirement is either “grind the normal raid” OR “grind the easier raid longer”. But since the requirement is “clearing”, even if there’s an easier mode, the requirement can only be “clear the normal raid”, since there’s no equivalent of that requirement on easy mode.

Longer thought:
Initially I was theorizing about the actual implementation of “1/3 reward for easier mode” that Ohoni’s been proposing. 1/3 reward, which means the weekly shard cap is 33 instead of 100, which also means that players can only get ascended glove (the cheapest asc gear) after 5-6 weeks of raiding. Also lower chance of asc gear dropping. I got 40 LI and 4 or 5 asc gear from raid, which averages to 10-12% drop rate. So in Ohoni’s mode this will be 3.3-4% drop rate, which means player will get their first asc gear drop after 25-30 kills.

I’ll leave that discussion to another topic, and move on to another reward aspect: legendary armor collection. In Wing 1 we need to gather 5 spirit threads by killing gorseval 5 times, which means at best we can only get it after 5 weeks. In Ohoni’s mode player will need to kill Gorseval 15 times then, to gather 5 spirit threads, which means 15 weeks of killing gorseval, which is almost 4 months.

So far so good, since so far player needs to grind the raid to get legend armor, but problem is, on Wing 2 Anet changes their way of doing the armor collection. Instead of killing bosses multiple times, raider just need to kill the bosses once. Once a raider has cleared the wing, they can also pass the collection step. Which means for Anet, it isn’t important how many times a player do the raid, what’s important is that they cleared it.

Now that’s important. Anet has always like to “improve” stuff on the next iteration. Which means Wing 2 is closer to Anet’s ideal compared to Wing 1. This can be seen from how there’s no more achievement that’s similar to The Eternal achievement, or how the achi encourage new way to do the boss unlike the wing 1 achi.

So that means the wing 2 collection is closer to anet’s ideal compared to wing 1. Which means anet’s actual ideal is basically “legendary armors are for people who have cleared the current raid”, no raid grinding. And since easier mode supposedly “lengthen” the grind, it’s not compatible with anet’s ideal since there’s no actual grind involved.

Raids were rushed and are “develop as we go” content, so lots of things are up in the air.

The devs are basing difficulty of future wings based off statistics, and I made a quote of that in my op.

Legendary armor will require legendary Insights, so it’s not only about collections. The devs are currently figuring out how many Legendary Insights will be needed per armor piece. Yes, per piece. We also don’t know how collections will be handled, and so far there is only Envoy Armor 1 for the entire raid. Based off of the collection I will fully assume that we are going to have 6 completely different raids, with 3 wings each, to eventually complete a full set of legendary armor.

Anet is now starting to be mindful of the over grind they have created and we will just have to wait to see where it all goes with collections and Legendary Insights.

Swagger.1459:

Anet is now starting to be mindful of the over grind they have created and we will just have to wait to see where it all goes with collections and Legendary Insights.

“Over grind” seems a bit silly considering it’s a set of gear which you can swap to any stat, including future sets.