Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

I think the question is oversimplified, so here is the oversimplified answer I would give -

Raids, in particular, need an easy mode to open the experience and fun to a wider group of players.

Again, this is an opinion statement offered as a fact.

It isn’t self-evident WHY raids MUST reach a wider audience? It isn’t an accepted fact. They dont HAVE to do anything. They only HAVE to do what Anet wants them to do. You assume that hitting the widest possible audience is the best possible outcome. This is not a given. It could easily be argued the opposite is true. Since the opposite could easily be true, when you make statements saying “X must happen or Y will be a failure” it isn’t possible to take them seriously.

“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.”

Raids are by their definition in GW2 to be the ultimate challenge in PvE.

If they are something a majority can do with little effort, I believe by that very notion they have failed at their intended function.

Here’s what I would do:

- Obviously, create alternative means to acquire certain ascended stats like Viper’s trinkets outside of raids. The devs have already mentioned this was coming in the next Living Story, however I believe they should address this need before the next raid should they introduce more stat combinations going forward.

- Legendary Armor served a very impressive carrot for getting raiding going, GW2 Raiders now know what to expect from Raid Content with how wildly received it was for raiders, they did a phenomenal job bringing Raiding to a GW2 format. However, like other Legendary items such as Backpacks, I believe in Legendary Armor being made available in another area of the game. Imho, having a Legendary Armor tied to WvW specifically would be an incredible way to instill an incentive for WvW which needs the help. However I am perfectly able to accept a Legendary Armor set that takes place much like how the Vanilla Precursor Crafting works. This Legendary Armor set naturally is not the Envoy set.

- Raid rewards can be tempered still, but I do not believe in something like a bronze, silver, gold system. That can easily instill even more toxicity as different factors to gauge how well the raid does the encounter could be as easy as 1 person denying the raid a gold medal, whereas right now it is less obvious. Wildstar had a similar format in their dungeons, it was some of the most elitist and toxic PvE ever seen in an MMO. I prefer my ‘Ulduar’ formula a page ago that I mentioned. Have the encounters give you additional non-required rewards like Ascended Ingots/Planks/Leather if you decide to go the extra mile and do a ‘hard-mode’ variant of the encounter. Technically speaking, that would give the hard-mode raiders an edge over their normal mode raiders in terms of individual wealth and horizontal progression.

…Of course, Nike pointed out earlier that the current first raid was perhaps a bit too easy, but I wonder if that was because raiders in GW2 had just gotten better at realizing metas and recognizing mechanics? What if Wing 3 was the 1st Wing that came out for everyone, would we be saying the same things about it then since raiding was a new concept and metas weren’t being created?

I think GW2 Raiders have gotten profoundly better, Arenanet is going to have a lot of work ahead of them to make engaging encounters to fuel the ever improving raiders.

NikeEU.7690:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the question is oversimplified, so here is the oversimplified answer I would give -

Raids, in particular, need an easy mode to open the experience and fun to a wider group of players.

Again, this is an opinion statement offered as a fact.

It isn’t self-evident WHY raids MUST reach a wider audience? It isn’t an accepted fact. They dont HAVE to do anything. They only HAVE to do what Anet wants them to do. You assume that hitting the widest possible audience is the best possible outcome. This is not a given. It could easily be argued the opposite is true. Since the opposite could easily be true, when you make statements saying “X must happen or Y will be a failure” it isn’t possible to take them seriously.

Make your arguments against the points people are making instead of directly at those people. It makes for a better discussion.

A good tip is to go back after writing a post and look for any directed statements or the word “you.” Make sure those sentences are respectful, non-accusatory and further the conversation.

How many times do I have to state “this is my opinion” before what I write is recognized as my opinion? Having to respond to accusations directed at me personally is not a productive furtherance of the topic at hand – it leads to squabbling and infighting rather than actual friendly debate.

Go back and look at where I made the statement you quote above. I immediately state that the answer I gave will have a different weight based on the perspective of the player. It comes down to opinion on both sides, especially when we are talking about something as subjective as hard vs easy or casual vs hardcore.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Eh I don’t think this really answers his question. I know you said it was oversimplified, but I think that rather than asking generally why there should be easy mode in raids, he was asking something more specific, along the lines of “Why is it important that raids have an easy mode rather than just having similar content that is easier?”

And the answer (well, one of the answers) should be obvious. It’s because raids are being developed at a decent rate, while other content is not. Just as i said before – getting an easy mode raid is not going to cost us a new dungeon, because we’re not going to get that new dungeon anyway.

And people that suggest that as an option know that well.

Astralporing.1957:

Dinosaurs.8674:

Eh I don’t think this really answers his question. I know you said it was oversimplified, but I think that rather than asking generally why there should be easy mode in raids, he was asking something more specific, along the lines of “Why is it important that raids have an easy mode rather than just having similar content that is easier?”

And the answer (well, one of the answers) should be obvious. It’s because raids are being developed at a decent rate, while other content is not. Just as i said before – getting an easy mode raid is not going to cost us a new dungeon, because we’re not going to get that new dungeon anyway.

And people that suggest that as an option know that well.

And for the umpteenth time: The raid content being released has zero bearing on the progress of other content.

Plain and simple, the raid team which is smaller than the literal number of players you would typically bring into the Forsaken Thicket, has no bearing on how PvP balance is coming along, nor are they coming up with the new musical scores that the sound team is working on.

Stop asking for raids to not be developed as if that will hasten the deployment of other parts of GW2.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Dinosaurs.8674:

Eh I don’t think this really answers his question. I know you said it was oversimplified, but I think that rather than asking generally why there should be easy mode in raids, he was asking something more specific, along the lines of “Why is it important that raids have an easy mode rather than just having similar content that is easier?”

And the answer (well, one of the answers) should be obvious. It’s because raids are being developed at a decent rate, while other content is not. Just as i said before – getting an easy mode raid is not going to cost us a new dungeon, because we’re not going to get that new dungeon anyway.

And people that suggest that as an option know that well.

And for the umpteenth time: The raid content being released has zero bearing on the progress of other content.

Plain and simple, the raid team which is smaller than the literal number of players you would typically bring into the Forsaken Thicket, has no bearing on how PvP balance is coming along, nor are they coming up with the new musical scores that the sound team is working on.

Stop asking for raids to not be developed as if that will hasten the deployment of other parts of GW2.

Adding on to what you said….

W2 and w3 were not developed solely in the time between releases. This entire raid has undoubtedly been in development for a long time, with a cadenced release planned from the start. Obviously, some continuos work and polish probably happened for w2 in the months and weeks prior to release, same for w3, but the bulk of the work was clearly already done since they had guilds playtesting them.

As amazing as the raid team is, they’re not super devs churning out content from scratch at a record pace. The development of projects as large as raid wings and LS seasons doesn’t hinge on 6 people.

I think raids should be left alone at this point, let the people who enjoy that, enjoy that.

I’d rather Anet focus on putting out other content, and rebuilding the lateral end game they once had, then messing with raids further.

Agreed.

If I recall we won’t see the next raid until the next expansion, there’s plenty of time there for LS, new maps (akin to what we got with Dry Top and Silverwastes), Balancing, etc.

With the last raid wing released for Forsaken Thicket, we can likely anticipate raid releases won’t happen for a while now.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Dinosaurs.8674:

Eh I don’t think this really answers his question. I know you said it was oversimplified, but I think that rather than asking generally why there should be easy mode in raids, he was asking something more specific, along the lines of “Why is it important that raids have an easy mode rather than just having similar content that is easier?”

And the answer (well, one of the answers) should be obvious. It’s because raids are being developed at a decent rate, while other content is not. Just as i said before – getting an easy mode raid is not going to cost us a new dungeon, because we’re not going to get that new dungeon anyway.

And people that suggest that as an option know that well.

And for the umpteenth time: The raid content being released has zero bearing on the progress of other content.

So what? The only thing that matters is that it is being released. Dungeons, for example, are not. So, waiting for new dungeons is completely pointless. Asking for raids to be tweaked so they’re satifying for people that liked dungeons on the other hand does have a chance of succeeding.

Sykper.6583:

Stop asking for raids to not be developed as if that will hasten the deployment of other parts of GW2.

I’m asking for easy mode raids because i know nothing will hasten development of other parts of GW2.

Would i prefer new dungeons with new , nice, dungeon rewards? Sure i would. But i’d rather aim for realistic goals.

Tentonhammr.7849:

W2 and w3 were not developed solely in the time between releases. This entire raid has undoubtedly been in development for a long time, with a cadenced release planned from the start. Obviously, some continuos work and polish probably happened for w2 in the months and weeks prior to release, same for w3, but the bulk of the work was clearly already done since they had guilds playtesting them.

According to devs, it took them 4 months to make the second raid wing.

Tentonhammr.7849:

As amazing as the raid team is, they’re not super devs churning out content from scratch at a record pace. The development of projects as large as raid wings and LS seasons doesn’t hinge on 6 people.

Oh, so you’re saying that, contrary to what every raider is claiming, there are way more than 6 people working on raids?

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Dinosaurs.8674:

Eh I don’t think this really answers his question. I know you said it was oversimplified, but I think that rather than asking generally why there should be easy mode in raids, he was asking something more specific, along the lines of “Why is it important that raids have an easy mode rather than just having similar content that is easier?”

And the answer (well, one of the answers) should be obvious. It’s because raids are being developed at a decent rate, while other content is not. Just as i said before – getting an easy mode raid is not going to cost us a new dungeon, because we’re not going to get that new dungeon anyway.

And people that suggest that as an option know that well.

And for the umpteenth time: The raid content being released has zero bearing on the progress of other content.

So what? The only thing that matters is that it is being released. Dungeons, for example, are not. So, waiting for new dungeons is completely pointless. Asking for raids to be tweaked so they’re satifying for people that liked dungeons on the other hand does have a chance of succeeding.

Stop asking for content that isn’t catered to you to be. Should I start demanding open world PvP because SPvP doesn’t have enough maps?

How about being more patient?

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Stop asking for raids to not be developed as if that will hasten the deployment of other parts of GW2.

I’m asking for easy mode raids because i know nothing will hasten development of other parts of GW2.

And take away work from future raid content that current raiders enjoy? I don’t think so.

Astralporing.1957:

Would i prefer new dungeons with new , nice, dungeon rewards? Sure i would. But i’d rather aim for realistic goals.

Asking raids to be balanced towards easy mode is not realistic, goes against what raids are about, and likely causes even further delays for all content down the road. People have this assumption that it is as simple as tweaking numbers.

Astralporing.1957:

Tentonhammr.7849:

W2 and w3 were not developed solely in the time between releases. This entire raid has undoubtedly been in development for a long time, with a cadenced release planned from the start. Obviously, some continuos work and polish probably happened for w2 in the months and weeks prior to release, same for w3, but the bulk of the work was clearly already done since they had guilds playtesting them.

According to devs, it took them 4 months to make the second raid wing.

Source? Also remember when Mike presented raids for the first time and we all saw Gorseval? Raids have been in development from concept to execution for far long than a few months.

Astralporing.1957:

Tentonhammr.7849:

As amazing as the raid team is, they’re not super devs churning out content from scratch at a record pace. The development of projects as large as raid wings and LS seasons doesn’t hinge on 6 people.

Oh, so you’re saying that, contrary to what every raider is claiming, there are way more than 6 people working on raids?

6 people are dedicated to raids, 70 people are dedicated to expansion, some semblance of folks are dedicated to sounds, maps, etc.

How would you best organize teams dedicated to a certain kind of content in this game? Sound teams likely get a few requests for different projects and work on them in a queue, much like how map artists do so.

6 people dedicated to raids means those few folks find a direction, know what they need to request from other teams, put that in, and see where it goes. I doubt the Sound Team just comes up with on the fly the different themes that get put into the game, someone brings up a concept to them first.

Astralporing.1957:

Oh, so you’re saying that, contrary to what every raider is claiming, there are way more than 6 people working on raids?

The core raid dev team has been working on the raids for a long time. This ‘insane pace’ that people talk about is an illusion; they did most of the work before the expac launched and they have been purposely delaying the release of wings after launch (which is a standard practice).

STIHL.2489:

I think raids should be left alone at this point, let the people who enjoy that, enjoy that.

I’d rather Anet focus on putting out other content, and rebuilding the lateral end game they once had, then messing with raids further.

As far as the current raid, I would agree. Trying to retrofit the raid we have with tiered difficulty might not be the best use of resources.

When developing future raids, they should reconsider their approach to raiding. I firmly believe they can offer the challenge people are looking for while still offering a more accessible experience for those PVE players who enjoy the game in different ways.

Likewise, I hope that, as they are developing the next living story drops, they are taking the hardcore player into consideration.

PVE content in GW2 should be cohesive and offer an overall experience that every PVE player can enjoy. Part of that is accessibility – something this last raid didn’t offer in a meaningful way, imo. I hope that Anet saw this, learned a lesson from it, and will apply that lesson to future raid development.

The idea of making hardcore versions of every PVE element in the game is unrealistic – I realize that. That doesn’t mean that they cannot strive to better balance that kind of thing throughout the game more.

What I believe they should never do, however, is wall off an entire game mode and make it only for hardcore players. That creates barriers to entry that directly conflict with the idea of offering PVE players a big picture experience that spans multiple experiences.

I want hardcore content in the game. I want eyebleeding challenges. What I don’t want is content that encourages division (and, yes, even elitism) among the playerbase. That isn’t the game we played for the first 3 and a half years – which was (and still is and can continue to be) the best MMO ever made.

Pls, Dont Make any easy difficultyes for the game, the game is all ready too easy and needs more tribulation game modes so that it feels more rewarding to play, rather than that u are able to solo nearly every dungeon on your own (not dungeons like coe because the need of more ppl for objektives etc.).

Bosses should be more harder in a way that u could not solo them

Blaeys.3102:

STIHL.2489:

I think raids should be left alone at this point, let the people who enjoy that, enjoy that.

I’d rather Anet focus on putting out other content, and rebuilding the lateral end game they once had, then messing with raids further.

As far as the current raid, I would agree. Trying to retrofit the raid we have with tiered difficulty might not be the best use of resources.

When developing future raids, they should reconsider their approach to raiding. I firmly believe they can offer the challenge people are looking for while still offering a more accessible experience for those PVE players who enjoy the game in different ways.

Likewise, I hope that, as they are developing the next living story drops, they are taking the hardcore player into consideration.

PVE content in GW2 should be cohesive and offer an overall experience that every PVE player can enjoy. Part of that is accessibility – something this last raid didn’t offer in a meaningful way, imo. I hope that Anet saw this, learned a lesson from it, and will apply that lesson to future raid development.

The idea of making hardcore versions of every PVE element in the game is unrealistic – I realize that. That doesn’t mean that they cannot strive to better balance that kind of thing throughout the game more.

What I believe they should never do, however, is wall off an entire game mode and make it only for hardcore players. That creates barriers to entry that directly conflict with the idea of offering PVE players a big picture experience that spans multiple experiences.

I want hardcore content in the game. I want eyebleeding challenges. What I don’t want is content that encourages division (and, yes, even elitism) among the playerbase. That isn’t the game we played for the first 3 and a half years – which was (and still is and can continue to be) the best MMO ever made.

Anet used Achievements within the Content itself as a means to challenge Hardcore/Skilled players, with some of them requiring team work, study, twitch, etc, to attain and rewarding the player with unique items, titles, AP, etc for their efforts.

I thought that was a good system, as it made content inclusive to various skill levels, and play styles.

But, at this point, I think raids should be left alone. They are done, and it’s time to move on, not dwell on them.

Blaeys.3102:

Make your arguments against the points people are making instead of directly at those people. It makes for a better discussion.

I’m not making any argument. I think the whole thread is silly and I’m not offering any position on the issue. So yeah, not making an argument. I’m pointing out the fallacious nature of your non-points.

A good tip is to go back after writing a post and look for any directed statements or the word “you.” Make sure those sentences are respectful, non-accusatory and further the conversation.

I am being intentionally accusatory because you’re being unintentionally fallacious.

How many times do I have to state “this is my opinion” before what I write is recognized as my opinion? Having to respond to accusations directed at me personally is not a productive furtherance of the topic at hand – it leads to squabbling and infighting rather than actual friendly debate.

There is no debate. Why? Primarily, again, because I’m not taking a position.

Here is why “stating this is my opinion” isn’t a defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Since my previous post wasn’t blunt enough I’ll explain it very simply here. Your conclusion assumes the initial point. You start out with the unproven assumption that an easy mode is necessary and beneficial as the status quo is a failure. Since these are, again, unproven assumptions your conclusions and suggestions based on them are not necessary to be considered. No one needs to “debate” your suggestions because they are based on a faulty premise.

Maybe your premise is actually correct and your suggestions have some sort of merit. Or maybe not. It isn’t mine or anyone else’s job to consider them until you demonstrate why. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not every opinion is entitled to equal consideration.

I don’t buy that someone cannot make an easier mode raid simply by tweaking a few numbers. You can argue that that wouldn’t be good enough to lower the difficulty (I don’t agree, but you could argue that). You can argue that even that would take resources (to be fair it does, but it’s not clear how much). However, you can’t reasonably argue that it couldn’t be done.

I spent 100+ hours practising twice a week for months to beat Vale Guardian once. When I defeated him, was I proud of my accomplishment that all my hard work paid off? No. I don’t want to go through that again. It was much harder for me than it was for other people and took much more work for me than for other people. However, most of all, it wasn’t fun.

An easier mode would be fun. Do I demand it? No. But I would enjoy it if it were made. I would probably not be posting this now if I didn’t keep seeing so many excuses on why people claim an easier mode would be a bad idea.

Once again, the only valid reason I’ve seen that an easy mode would be bad is the issue of whether or not you get access to the same rewards (but in lower quantities). If so, then people who did the original mode would get angry. If not, then the people who want an easy mode would get angry. This is a fundamental no-win problem.

so lets say they would implement “story” mode compared to dungeon story mode how many times would you do it? not to mention that certain tweaks might affect the normal mode of the raid due to anets famous spaghetti code

ekarat.1085:

I don’t buy that someone cannot make an easier mode raid simply by tweaking a few numbers. You can argue that that wouldn’t be good enough to lower the difficulty (I don’t agree, but you could argue that). You can argue that even that would take resources (to be fair it does, but it’s not clear how much). However, you can’t reasonably argue that it couldn’t be done.

Of course it could be done, the argument is that it’s not as simple as numbers. There’s the prospect of ‘how low can we go before it feels less like raiding and more like 10-man open world where you can ignore mechanics’. It’s not authentic, not to mention there will always be someone asking for an easier mode, always. What you might be able to pull off and agree as an easy mode, someone else will demand it be even lower. It’s more work, for people who are clearly not that interested in raids to begin with.

It would be better for everyone if content was made that was NOT raids offered the same quality of equipment, everyone including Arenanet agrees on the exclusivity of trinket stats in Raids was a bad thing, hence we will see it in Living Story soon.

ekarat.1085:

I spent 100+ hours practising twice a week for months to beat Vale Guardian once. When I defeated him, was I proud of my accomplishment that all my hard work paid off? No. I don’t want to go through that again. It was much harder for me than it was for other people and took much more work for me than for other people. However, most of all, it wasn’t fun.

I find this a little hard to believe that you didn’t get some sort of satisfaction from killing VG for the very first time. I suppose frustration might have curbed your enthusiasm since you have said you have spent 100+ hours, but if what you have said is true, you might just not have the mentality to enjoy raiding. You could keep raiding, it’s as accessible as you make it, but if I were in your position I would instead of asking for easier raids, ask for content you actually enjoy to give similar rewards.

ekarat.1085:

An easier mode would be fun. Do I demand it? No. But I would enjoy it if it were made. I would probably not be posting this now if I didn’t keep seeing so many excuses on why people claim an easier mode would be a bad idea.

You might enjoy it but it would be at the expense of raiders right now who have their content delayed. And these excuses you speak of are not without merit. The best example of this would come from WoW’s Raid Content comparison between Burning Crusade, to Wrath of the Lich King where the latter introduced ‘Easy-Mode’ and ‘Hard-Mode’. Burning Crusade ended it’s unique raids with 7 Full Raids (3+ bosses) and 2 Small Raids (1-2 bosses, Gruul’s Lair and Magtheridon’s Lair). All of these were unique raids with specific raids sizes and a single difficulty.

Wrath of the Lich King had:
Naxxramas, Recycled raid content from Vanilla WoW that was given a 10-man and 25-man version, as well as a normal and hard-mode.
Vault of Archavon, Small Raid instance that began with 1 boss and due to the convenience of ‘Giant Doors’ and ‘Empty Space’, rolled out an additional 3 bosses over each major patch to eventually turn it into a Full Raid with 4 bosses overall.
Obsidian Sanctum, Small Raid instance with a single main boss.
Ruby Sanctum, Small Raid instance with again 1 majordomo.
Eye of Eternity, Small Raid instance “insert 1 boss here”.
Ulduar, FIRST original Full sized Raid in WotLK, there was only 10-man and 25-man versions however the hard-mode was activated for different encounters through different actions (or inactions).
Trial of the Crusader, Full sized raid without ‘Trash Mobs’, Raiders really hated it for being the follow-up past Ulduar which was widely loved.
Icecrown Citadel, the Final Full Sized raid and end-game of WotLK.

Even if you count VoA which started off with a single boss as a ‘Full’ Raid, there was still MORE full raids in Burning Crusade (7) compared to WotLK (5). …THERE WERE MORE RAIDS IN GENERAL, 9 in BC compared to 8 in WotLK! And Eye of Eternity? NO TRASH! You clicked a item as you spawned in the instance and started the encounter!

If Blizzard, the supposed ‘creators of raid content’ can’t find a way to not neglect the quality and quantity of their raid content by catering to a ‘Easy-Mode/Hard-Mode’ mentality, what makes you think anyone can?!

Once again, the only valid reason I’ve seen that an easy mode would be bad is the issue of whether or not you get access to the same rewards (but in lower quantities). If so, then people who did the original mode would get angry. If not, then the people who want an easy mode would get angry. This is a fundamental no-win problem.

Rewards are one thing, wasting the dev’s time, diminishing the quality of the raiding, there are a LOT of bad things that happen when Raiding starts becoming ‘easier’ because people don’t want to put the effort in.

Sykper.6583:

It would be better for everyone if content was made that was NOT raids offered the same quality of equipment

Possibly it might be. So far however, there’s no indication that anything like that is going to happen anytime soon (or, in some cases, ever)

Sykper.6583:

I find this a little hard to believe that you didn’t get some sort of satisfaction from killing VG for the very first time.

You expect other people to react the same way you do, and can’t really understand that people are different. That lack of understanding is the very core of the divide.

Sykper.6583:

I suppose frustration might have curbed your enthusiasm since you have said you have spent 100+ hours, but if what you have said is true, you might just not have the mentality to enjoy raiding.

Mentality to enjoy hardmode raiding. You don’t know whether he would enjoy it if he didn’t have to sacrifice 100 hours of constant failures first.
And yes, constant failures do kill enthusiasm and fun very fast. If you continue to keep going regardless, and eventually succeed, what you feel then is not satisfaction. It is relief. Relief that you have this beyond you.

Sykper.6583:

You could keep raiding, it’s as accessible as you make it, but if I were in your position I would instead of asking for easier raids, ask for content you actually enjoy to give similar rewards.

Would you? Even knowing that the second option is (at least at the current direction of the game) far less likely to happen?

Sykper.6583:

You might enjoy it but it would be at the expense of raiders right now who have their content delayed.

They do? That’s a news to me, seeing as raids are the only thing around here that is being released on really fast schedule.

Sykper.6583:

If Blizzard, the supposed ‘creators of raid content’ can’t find a way to not neglect the quality and quantity of their raid content by catering to a ‘Easy-Mode/Hard-Mode’ mentality, what makes you think anyone can?!

And yet somehow people liked that, didn’t they? WotLK was not a failure you make it to be. Quite the contrary.

And that was in a Raid-centered game, which GW2 is supposedly not.

Seriously, by going that way, there’s way more to gain in GW2 than it was in WoW. Because the percentage of hardcore raiders (as opposed to percentage of people that merely raid because the content is there) is likely smaller.

Give us an option to clear raids for pugs in green gear, spamming autoattack and not using dodge.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

It would be better for everyone if content was made that was NOT raids offered the same quality of equipment

Possibly it might be. So far however, there’s no indication that anything like that is going to happen anytime soon (or, in some cases, ever)

Nobody thought Arenanet would even bat an eye at the GvG scene in WvW using the area behind windmill and give them an arena in WvW, which would eventually lead to Guild Arenas.

This is one of the few things both sides agree on, why can’t we continue to ask for it? Set up a set of Legendary Armor outside of Raids, it makes perfect sense given they have different game-modes for Legendary Backpieces.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

I find this a little hard to believe that you didn’t get some sort of satisfaction from killing VG for the very first time.

You expect other people to react the same way you do, and can’t really understand that people are different. That lack of understanding is the very core of the divide.

I don’t pin too many expectations on players to react in certain ways, but when you spend that much time on something you clearly don’t enjoy, and finally complete it, not even expressing relief is a little surprising in my opinion.

And please stop preaching in a manner that insinuates that the side I am taking is the only one that lacks in understanding. There is a clear divide because of two different viewpoints, neither side is more at fault, we can only speak our pieces and provide discussion through logical reasoning and evidence.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

I suppose frustration might have curbed your enthusiasm since you have said you have spent 100+ hours, but if what you have said is true, you might just not have the mentality to enjoy raiding.

Mentality to enjoy raiding. You don’t know whether he would enjoy it if he didn’t have to sacrifice 100 hours of constant failures first.

Sorry, I fixed that misconception for you. Or rather, it’s because you put ‘hardcore’ in there is why you are on the side that believes raiding is too difficult.

Astralporing.1957:

And yes, constant failures do kill enthusiasm and fun very fast. If you continue to keep going regardless, and eventually succeed, what you feel then is not satisfaction. It is relief. Relief that you have this beyond you.

Raiding requires a mindset that adapts and learns through failure, however long it takes. If you aren’t prepared to die a lot to overcome an obstacle, and feel accomplished when you do so, I genuinely believe you might not be cut out for raiding. Raiding needs to have a good chance of failure to be successful.

Besides, relief is extremely similar to satisfaction. That’s a perfectly normal reaction for raiders to have after a long ordeal, but if he didn’t even feel that…there’s a problem.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

You could keep raiding, it’s as accessible as you make it, but if I were in your position I would instead of asking for easier raids, ask for content you actually enjoy to give similar rewards.

Would you? Even knowing that the second option is (at least at the current direction of the game) far less likely to happen?

kitten right I would. I am asking for it right now. I feel quite strongly given all my experiences, all the evidence pointing to it that signifies that introducing easy-mode raiding to GW2 would be one of the worst decisions ever made by Arenanet (I would say it rivals not following up with the full Legendaries for HoT) that I am crossing that line to ask for similar rewards elsewhere.

You are taking the easy way out, demanding that something so special and so absolutely unique in GW2 PvE to be destroyed for your selfish gains. Raise that war flag elsewhere, constructively provide points for why Legendary Armor should be in other content than Raids.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

You might enjoy it but it would be at the expense of raiders right now who have their content delayed.

They do? That’s a news to me, seeing as raids are the only thing around here that is being released on really fast schedule.

See above.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

If Blizzard, the supposed ‘creators of raid content’ can’t find a way to not neglect the quality and quantity of their raid content by catering to a ‘Easy-Mode/Hard-Mode’ mentality, what makes you think anyone can?!

And yet somehow people liked that, didn’t they? WotLK was not a failure you make it to be. Quite the contrary.

And that was in a Raid-centered game, which GW2 is supposedly not.

Seriously, by going that way, there’s way more to gain in GW2 than it was in WoW. Because the percentage of hardcore raiders (as opposed to percentage of people that merely raid because the content is there) is likely smaller.

They did not. What part of ‘WotLK was the last expansion for millions of WoW players’ did you not understand? It had the peak of players, but it was such an utter letdown that millions left before Cataclysm. Players wanted to ride out that Expansion Box price and pray that the content would get better, that raids would get better.

The only redeeming raid in WotLK was Ulduar, which could be compared to its predecessor raids in Vanilla and BC. Icecrown Citadel would have been bland if it didn’t have Arthas in it. WotLK rode off the hype from Vanilla and BC and it tore it all down.

mbhalo.1547:

Give us an option to clear raids for pugs in green gear, spamming autoattack and not using dodge.

Nah, all the players who can’t afford green gear and are stuck with whites and blues would be left out. Remember, raiding has to be able to be done by everyone right?

Sykper.6583:

They did not. What part of ‘WotLK was the last expansion for millions of WoW players’ did you not understand? It had the peak of players, but it was such an utter letdown that millions left before Cataclysm. Players wanted to ride out that Expansion Box price and pray that the content would get better, that raids would get better.

The only redeeming raid in WotLK was Ulduar, which could be compared to its predecessor raids in Vanilla and BC. Icecrown Citadel would have been bland if it didn’t have Arthas in it. WotLK rode off the hype from Vanilla and BC and it tore it all down.

How about you to stop lying to prove your point? WoW Cataclysm was released Dec 10 2010, and population was steady rising before that. WotLK and all WotLK raids was an ultimate success, whatever you like it or not.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

And yes, constant failures do kill enthusiasm and fun very fast. If you continue to keep going regardless, and eventually succeed, what you feel then is not satisfaction. It is relief. Relief that you have this beyond you.

Raiding requires a mindset that adapts and learns through failure, however long it takes. If you aren’t prepared to die a lot to overcome an obstacle, and feel accomplished when you do so, I genuinely believe you might not be cut out for raiding. Raiding needs to have a good chance of failure to be successful.

So, your real opposition is to the word “raiding”? Because you feel that easy mode would not be “true raiding” at all? What if it had a different name? If you had a “forgotten thicket raid” and “forgotten thicket exploration”, for example?

It seems to me that you are too stuck on the word Raid and your idea of what it should mean to really understand what the people asking for easy mode raids are really asking for.

Sykper.6583:

Besides, relief is extremely similar to satisfaction. That’s a perfectly normal reaction for raiders to have after a long ordeal, but if he didn’t even feel that…there’s a problem.

He didn’t say that. He said he didn’t feel satisfaction. And yes, that’s a problem. One that the easy mode ra… “Explorations” are meant to solve.
Also, no, relief is not realyy similar to satisfaction. After satisfaction, you want more of what caused you to feel it. After relief, you are glad you don’t have to repeat the experience.

Sykper.6583:

I feel quite strongly given all my experiences, all the evidence pointing to it that signifies that introducing easy-mode raiding to GW2 would be one of the worst decisions ever made by Arenanet (I would say it rivals not following up with the full Legendaries for HoT) that I am crossing that line to ask for similar rewards elsewhere.

While i see that there’s not really any such evidence at all.

Sykper.6583:

You are taking the easy way out, demanding that something so special and so absolutely unique in GW2 PvE to be destroyed for your selfish gains.

I’m not asking for it to be destroyed. There’s nothing that would even suggest it might get destroyed. All the fears from the raiders side seem completely unsupported by any facts.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

If Blizzard, the supposed ‘creators of raid content’ can’t find a way to not neglect the quality and quantity of their raid content by catering to a ‘Easy-Mode/Hard-Mode’ mentality, what makes you think anyone can?!

And yet somehow people liked that, didn’t they? WotLK was not a failure you make it to be. Quite the contrary.

And that was in a Raid-centered game, which GW2 is supposedly not.

Seriously, by going that way, there’s way more to gain in GW2 than it was in WoW. Because the percentage of hardcore raiders (as opposed to percentage of people that merely raid because the content is there) is likely smaller.

They did not. What part of ‘WotLK was the last expansion for millions of WoW players’ did you not understand? It had the peak of players, but it was such an utter letdown that millions left before Cataclysm. Players wanted to ride out that Expansion Box price and pray that the content would get better, that raids would get better.

The only redeeming raid in WotLK was Ulduar, which could be compared to its predecessor raids in Vanilla and BC. Icecrown Citadel would have been bland if it didn’t have Arthas in it. WotLK rode off the hype from Vanilla and BC and it tore it all down.

See the Rednik’s post above. I’m afraid that the fears are all in your head, they are not supported by facts.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

They did not. What part of ‘WotLK was the last expansion for millions of WoW players’ did you not understand? It had the peak of players, but it was such an utter letdown that millions left before Cataclysm. Players wanted to ride out that Expansion Box price and pray that the content would get better, that raids would get better.

The only redeeming raid in WotLK was Ulduar, which could be compared to its predecessor raids in Vanilla and BC. Icecrown Citadel would have been bland if it didn’t have Arthas in it. WotLK rode off the hype from Vanilla and BC and it tore it all down.

How about you to stop lying to prove your point? WoW Cataclysm was released Dec 10 2010, and population was steady rising before that. WotLK and all WotLK raids was an ultimate success, whatever you like it or not.

You can’t even look at your own data, this is the exact data that proves my point.

Cataclysm released Quarter 4 of 2010, so why did a brand new expansion for WoW have Less Subs coming in the immediate quarters after, contrary to that steady rise you see before?

ICC was the last raid for WoW and that released Q4 2009, as I said before millions of players would stick around until the end of WotLK due to their investment already, but their raid days and subs ended when Cataclysm released.

You see this directly with the drop-off of subs within the first two quarters that matched the effective growth of subs during all of WotLK’s timeline. And it kept dropping after that.

Sykper.6583:

You can’t even look at your own data, this is the exact data that proves my point.

Cataclysm released Quarter 4 of 2010, so why did a brand new expansion for WoW have Less Subs coming in the immediate quarters after, contrary to that steady rise you see before?

Because it was bad and disappointing. Simple, right?

Sykper.6583:

ICC was the last raid for WoW and that released Q4 2009, as I said before millions of players would stick around until the end of WotLK due to their investment already, but their raid days and subs ended when Cataclysm released.

You see this directly with the drop-off of subs within the first two quarters that matched the effective growth of subs during all of WotLK’s timeline. And it kept dropping after that.

Yes. Because WotLK was so good that subs were growing even near the end of expansion, and then “awesome” Cataclysm happened. I was so “good” that my hardcore raid guild that was here since vanilla lost almost half of raid roster. Also it not making your lies about WotLK subscription numbers more trustworthy anyway.

Astralporing.1957:

So, your real opposition is to the word “raiding”? <snip>

There’s some sort of cognitive dissonance going on here, I don’t know how you gleamed my argument was somehow related to the word ‘Raiding’ being used for this newer content was the issue.

Here’s what I said:

Raiding requires a mindset that adapts and learns through failure, however long it takes. If you aren’t prepared to die a lot to overcome an obstacle, and feel accomplished when you do so, I genuinely believe you might not be cut out for raiding. Raiding needs to have a good chance of failure to be successful.

If you want it in more simple terms, Raiding requires effort and the expectation that you will fail. If you cannot handle failure and ultimately do not relish in success when it comes after you put in all the effort, you are not cut out for raiding.

Astralporing.1957:

He didn’t say that. He said he didn’t feel satisfaction. And yes, that’s a problem. One that the easy mode ra… “Explorations” are meant to solve.
Also, no, relief is not realyy similar to satisfaction. After satisfaction, you want more of what caused you to feel it. After relief, you are glad you don’t have to repeat the experience.

Which more or less supports my point, and why I wanted to know more details. But if he wants to just say ‘I really hated fighting VG and when I finally beat him I felt nothing’ that just tells me he didn’t like raiding. He then should ask Arenanet like any other normal player if similar rewards that Raiding uniquely has could come into other content he does enjoy and not try to impede raid content that his other players like much more than him in its current state.

Astralporing.1957:

While i see that there’s not really any such evidence at all.

I can’t help point out the obvious for those who do not wish to see.

Astralporing.1957:

I’m not asking for it to be destroyed. There’s nothing that would even suggest it might get destroyed. All the fears from the raiders side seem completely unsupported by any facts.

See above, Raiders have made several points with facts backing it up. Part of why we have this divide, if you wanted to go there, is because the ‘anti-raid’ crowd did not have the luxury of prior raiding and what the introduction of casualizing did to the quality of raiding content down the line.

Astralporing.1957:

See the Rednik’s post above. I’m afraid that the fears are all in your head, they are not supported by facts.

Rednik doesn’t know what the heck he is talking about, and ironically can’t really read the chart he listed. He simply thinks that because WotLK peaked during its end in “active” subs that it must have been an overwhelming success when in reality, the very first quarter after Cataclysm you see the beginning of the end with subs finally ending from all the players who would let them run out after WotLK.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

You can’t even look at your own data, this is the exact data that proves my point.

Cataclysm released Quarter 4 of 2010, so why did a brand new expansion for WoW have Less Subs coming in the immediate quarters after, contrary to that steady rise you see before?

Because it was bad and disappointing. Simple, right?

Because the first quarter of Cataclysm, or the very first months where people were leveling, dungeoning, and starting to raid the new content in Cata clearly was a turn-off for people, gotcha.

No one could gauge the expansion within the first quarter, not with the advertising train Blizzard put out and DEATHWING. In actuality we should have seen yet again another growth or at least the subs staying steady.

We got an immediate drop-off, which supports my point that players let their subs die en masse once WotLK ended. This drop-off was so awful that not even Blizzard’s Hype Train could bear it.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

ICC was the last raid for WoW and that released Q4 2009, as I said before millions of players would stick around until the end of WotLK due to their investment already, but their raid days and subs ended when Cataclysm released.

You see this directly with the drop-off of subs within the first two quarters that matched the effective growth of subs during all of WotLK’s timeline. And it kept dropping after that.

Yes. Because WotLK was so good that subs were growing even near the end of expansion, and then “awesome” Cataclysm happened. I was so “good” that my hardcore raid guild that was here since vanilla lost almost half of raid roster. Also it not making your lies about WotLK subscription numbers more trustworthy anyway.

Subs grew at the end due to Cataclysm advertising, and disappointed raiders at least wanted to see WotLK to its end, even when they released Patch 3.35 for Ruby Sanctum as a precursor to Cataclysm.

Ultimately, WotLK was an OK expansion to an MMO, but paled in quality and quantity of content to its predecessors. All because of shifts towards normal and hard modes. A raiding game that failed to bring good raids (except Ulduar).

Sykper.6583:

Rednik doesn’t know what the heck he is talking about, and ironically can’t really read the chart he listed. He simply thinks that because WotLK peaked during its end in “active” subs that it must have been an overwhelming success when in reality, the very first quarter after Cataclysm you see the beginning of the end with subs finally ending from all the players who would let them run out after WotLK.

How about you will finally stop trying pushing fantasies as explanations instead of most logical answers? Numbers are tied to players interest to content, that’s it. Good content – players pay to play it, bad content – they cancel subs. That’s how real world works.

Rednik.3809:

How about you will finally stop trying pushing fantasies as explanations instead of most logical answers? Numbers are tied to players interest to content, that’s it. Good content – players pay to play it, bad content – they cancel subs. That’s how real world works.

In more instances than not you would be right.

But the subject matter is an MMO, where content is delivered at a pace. The release of a new expansion is an explosion of new content, and the premise of Cataclysm where Deathwing literally rends the land asunder was an excellent one.

If the real world logic applied to that chart as you claimed, even for the duration between Vanilla and Burning Crusade, there would have been more dips due to content getting old between patches, or large game changes. Instead we saw increases constantly until WotLK was over which we both can clearly see.

So let’s take this side to side:

Did the numbers dip due to Cataclysm’s explosive release of new content, and millions of players judged Cataclysm in the first months? Even when the previous two expansions saw an increase of subs in the opening months?

Did the numbers dip due to WotLK ending and players letting their subs run out because they did not see a good future of content worth buying the next expansion and subsequent subs for? Even with the hype and content premise of Deathwing and his Cataclysm?

Take this next part as my opinion, you don’t have to read it if you don’t want to. Being there until WotLK ended, I can only say the latter was talked frequently in Dalaran and Guild chat, with my friends and raider colleagues. Deathwing coming out was a massive temptation, the idea of fighting Deathwing was extremely alluring, but there was an air of disappointment with how bad WotLK was compared to Burning Crusade. Burning Crusade might have been too good of an Expansion perhaps.

Sykper.6583:

Did the numbers dip due to Cataclysm’s explosive release of new content, and millions of players judged Cataclysm in the first months? Even when the previous two expansions saw an increase of subs in the opening months?

Yes. It was exactly that bad.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Did the numbers dip due to Cataclysm’s explosive release of new content, and millions of players judged Cataclysm in the first months? Even when the previous two expansions saw an increase of subs in the opening months?

Yes. It was exactly that bad.

I get that you can make this claim hence is why I brought it up. It is just that I cannot recall a single other instance of where an expansion caused less interest in the game, the opposite often happens where for a time numbers grow, and then they would fall off.

Find me another MMO where an expansion release caused less subscribers or active players.

Sykper.6583:

I get that you can make this claim hence is why I brought it up. It is just that I cannot recall a single other instance of where an expansion caused less interest in the game, the opposite often happens where for a time numbers grow, and then they would fall off.

Find me another MMO where an expansion release caused less subscribers or active players.

There is no good raiding games on market except WoW.

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

I get that you can make this claim hence is why I brought it up. It is just that I cannot recall a single other instance of where an expansion caused less interest in the game, the opposite often happens where for a time numbers grow, and then they would fall off.

Find me another MMO where an expansion release caused less subscribers or active players.

There is no good raiding games on market except WoW.

Let me expand then. Find me an expansion release from any games where from the outset the game had less players than before due to the release.

Maybe Diablo 3 Reaper of Souls- no wait that brought a lot of players in. I might have to go look around quite a bit for this phenomena. Maybe some CoD DLC maybe somewhere…

I also like how you seem to neglect FF14 and even SWTOR. FF14 likely has the better raiding scene than WoW right now, but that’s borderline going in a different direction.

Let me know when you find something, in the meantime we can assume that if it wasn’t Cataclysm’s release that caused the massive drop, it was likely what I have been saying all this time.

Sykper.6583:

Let me expand then. Find me an expansion release from any games where from the outset the game had less players than before due to the release.

Maybe Diablo 3 Reaper of Souls- no wait that brought a lot of players in. I might have to go look around quite a bit for this phenomena. Maybe some CoD DLC maybe somewhere…

I also like how you seem to neglect FF14 and even SWTOR. FF14 likely has the better raiding scene than WoW right now, but that’s borderline going in a different direction.

Let me know when you find something, in the meantime we can assume that if it wasn’t Cataclysm’s release that caused the massive drop, it was likely what I have been saying all this time.

It’s your job to prove your point about mythical WotLK low quality, not mine. Mine point is supported by numbers, yours – only by some wild guessing and weird examples from failed and asian (lol) MMOs. And it’s you who was caught on trying to backup your theories by lying, which invalidates your position even further.

Rednik.3809:

It’s your job to prove your point about mythical WotLK low quality, not mine. Mine point is supported by numbers, yours – only by some wild guessing and weird examples from failed and asian (lol) MMOs. And it’s you who was caught on trying to backup your theories by lying, which invalidates your position even further.

Incorrect, your data doesn’t validate your point because I was able to discern my alternatively valid conclusion from it.

All that data clearly shows is subs dropped after WotLK and during the Launch of Cataclysm. That’s it. You and I with our speculations of the cause aren’t grounded.

The difference is, my position is something I can back-up, as I can go find sources for games that have expansions that when they release, see a jump in their interest and play-rate. This data suggests however that at an expansion launch, for an MMO mind you with content that takes a lot more time to devour than a simple DLC to Skyrim, straight up dropped in interest. That is contrary to what should have been more likely to happen.

Which is why I point to my conclusion that WotLK caused such an overwhelming drop in subs once it finished, because players lost trust in Blizzard for its decisions during WotLK’s lifespan. Why take a risk and buy another WotLK? Many chose to leave instead, which doesn’t foil the logic of Expansion Launches creating a spike in play-time and interest.

In fact, I suppose it goes to prove just how awful WotLK was. So unless you can show me proof somewhere of how an expansion launch can actually cause less interest, I think we are done here.

Sykper.6583:

Incorrect, your data doesn’t validate your point because I was able to discern my alternatively valid conclusion from it.

All that data clearly shows is subs dropped after WotLK and during the Launch of Cataclysm. That’s it. You and I with our speculations of the cause aren’t grounded.

The difference is, my position is something I can back-up, as I can go find sources for games that have expansions that when they release, see a jump in their interest and play-rate. This data suggests however that at an expansion launch, for an MMO mind you with content that takes a lot more time to devour than a simple DLC to Skyrim, straight up dropped in interest. That is contrary to what should have been more likely to happen.

Which is why I point to my conclusion that WotLK caused such an overwhelming drop in subs once it finished, because players lost trust in Blizzard for its decisions during WotLK’s lifespan. Why take a risk and buy another WotLK? Many chose to leave instead, which doesn’t foil the logic of Expansion Launches creating a spike in play-time and interest.

In fact, I suppose it goes to prove just how awful WotLK was. So unless you can show me proof somewhere of how an expansion launch can actually cause less interest, I think we are done here.

I don’t care about suggestions and speculations, especially based on such tiny and niche examples as other so-called “raid” MMOs. I gave you numbers. Now either you will give me other numbers, like shrinking numbers of raiders in later WotLK raids, or big user polls, or stop trying to prove your pointless position by empty speculations based on insignificant examples.
Numbers, or we are finishing this discussion with admitting that WotLK raid model was an ultimate success. That’s all.

Rednik.3809:

I don’t care about suggestions and speculations, especially based on such tiny and niche examples as other so-called “raid” MMOs. I gave you numbers. Now either you will give me other numbers, like shrinking numbers of raiders in later WotLK raids, or big user polls, or stop trying to prove your pointless position by empty speculations based on insignificant examples.
Numbers, or we are finishing this discussion with admitting that WotLK raid model was an ultimate success. That’s all.

You didn’t give me anything I didn’t already know. You have yet to prove any of my points, or give me data that supports the notion that WotLK was an ultimate success. You drew a different conclusion from the same set of data than I have, yet you have yet to validate your point while I can point to any expansion of any game and show player interest spiked during the first week of launch. (Diablo 3 had 15 million accounts at RoS launch, in a week 2.7 RoS boxes sold, nearly a fifth of the D3 players trusted Blizzard enough to buy the expansion. That content revived Diablo 3.)

And at least be informed more about the games I speak of, FF14 about 1.5 years ago had 4 million confirmed accounts with 1/3rd of them actively subscribed. It isn’t a failed MMO lol. Don’t even play the game yet I at least know its been eating WoW’s terrible PvE for years for a themepark MMO. You are right about one thing though, this conversation is pretty much over.

Back on topic, let’s shift gears back a bit. If we wanted to develop content that the general populace wanted to get into, but more or less retained that ‘Raid’ feel for epic encounters and some lore…

What if we had more Triple Troubles? Tied some Legendary Equipment Collections to the open-world difficult world bosses? Or maybe they can make a special open-world map that has some very difficult events (a Harder Dragon’s Stand maybe?). Maybe involve mechanics from the Bandit Executioner who walls off players and despawns if everyone dies within his circle, although mesmer portals (creative use of mechanics) can go through just fine.

Of course, have there be a healthy amount of loot to be earned even when failing, bring some of that current HoT meta rewards where there are loads of keys and loads of ambient chests everywhere.

Sykper.6583:

mbhalo.1547:

Give us an option to clear raids for pugs in green gear, spamming autoattack and not using dodge.

Nah, all the players who can’t afford green gear and are stuck with whites and blues would be left out. Remember, raiding has to be able to be done by everyone right?

Ok. Ok, how about RPG mode – where you can sneak through trash mobs and talk your way out of the fight with the boss and convince him to give you rewards anyway.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

So, your real opposition is to the word “raiding”? <snip>

There’s some sort of cognitive dissonance going on here, I don’t know how you gleamed my argument was somehow related to the word ‘Raiding’ being used for this newer content was the issue.

See below.

Sykper.6583:

Here’s what I said:

Raiding requires a mindset that adapts and learns through failure, however long it takes. If you aren’t prepared to die a lot to overcome an obstacle, and feel accomplished when you do so, I genuinely believe you might not be cut out for raiding. Raiding needs to have a good chance of failure to be successful.

If you want it in more simple terms, Raiding requires effort and the expectation that you will fail. If you cannot handle failure and ultimately do not relish in success when it comes after you put in all the effort, you are not cut out for raiding.

Yes. I understand what you said the first time. And what i am saying is that you assume that anything with the term “raid” attached need to fulfill that qualification or be a failure. What you don’t seem to get is that people are asking for a variation of the current raid content that doesn’t require that mindset. By your definition it may not be a raid anymore. So what? It’s not like anyone that asks for it cares whether it will be called a raid, or by any other name. Call it 10-man dungeon, if you want.
In short, you see the “raid” attached to easy mode, and don’t look behind it (because for you it seems contradictory), without realizing that not everyone attaches so big importance to the “raid” part of that name.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

While i see that there’s not really any such evidence at all.

I can’t help point out the obvious for those who do not wish to see.

Except what you try to point out as obvious is neither obvious not necessarily true at all. Or at least there’s no proof about its validity.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

I’m not asking for it to be destroyed. There’s nothing that would even suggest it might get destroyed. All the fears from the raiders side seem completely unsupported by any facts.

See above, Raiders have made several points with facts backing it up. Part of why we have this divide, if you wanted to go there, is because the ‘anti-raid’ crowd did not have the luxury of prior raiding and what the introduction of casualizing did to the quality of raiding content down the line.

…you do realize, that lot of people from that crowd are veteran WoW raiders, don’t you? And they also understand, by the way, that what you claim has happened there may not be what has really happened.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

See the Rednik’s post above. I’m afraid that the fears are all in your head, they are not supported by facts.

Rednik doesn’t know what the heck he is talking about, and ironically can’t really read the chart he listed. He simply thinks that because WotLK peaked during its end in “active” subs that it must have been an overwhelming success when in reality, the very first quarter after Cataclysm you see the beginning of the end with subs finally ending from all the players who would let them run out after WotLK.

Again, there’s nothing but your preconceptions that support this kind of interpretation. And if your claim about how WotLK was so bad would be true, you;d have seen a big dip long before that point.
(also, Cata was really, really bad, and has done a lot of damage to WoW population. If you’re a veteran WoW player you know that, so it’s telling that you seem to completely gloss over it.)

Astralporing.1957:

Dinosaurs.8674:

Eh I don’t think this really answers his question. I know you said it was oversimplified, but I think that rather than asking generally why there should be easy mode in raids, he was asking something more specific, along the lines of “Why is it important that raids have an easy mode rather than just having similar content that is easier?”

And the answer (well, one of the answers) should be obvious. It’s because raids are being developed at a decent rate, while other content is not. Just as i said before – getting an easy mode raid is not going to cost us a new dungeon, because we’re not going to get that new dungeon anyway.

And people that suggest that as an option know that well.

According to Arenanet the other teams have more resources available to them and the funds spended on raids are insignificant, they do not hinder other projects. This makes sense cause raids are a small part of the gw2 experience.

Why do we need an easy mode raid? All these aspects that you are missing in game like the raid story line, legendary armor, easy content and instanced content can be implemented through fractals and open world. Why put effort in a easy mode for raids if the same resources can be spend at other projects to include those aspects you are missing? For example if you want the raid background story doesn’t it make sense to put it in LS3?

Sure if the main focus of gw2 becomes raids, the bulk of resources should be allocated to raids and in such a case different difficulty levels would be welcome. However we have plenty of other options and raids are only a small part of the game.

DutchRiders.2871:

Sure if the main focus of gw2 becomes raids, the bulk of resources should be allocated to raids and in such a case different difficulty levels would be welcome. However we have plenty of other options and raids are only a small part of the game.

I’d be very, very glad if Raids weren’t the main focus and centerpiece of GW2. Currently however that’s not true. They are the endgame content. As long as they’ll continue to have that place, we’ll have problems that lie at the basis of this thread (and others like it).

At this point, there are two options available: either make raids available to the wider public (by introducing easy mode), or bring them down a peg in the devs’ importance ladder.

Do you really think that raiders are going to take the second any better than the first?

Additionally, for some reason or another, raids are being created at an extremely high rate – greater than any other content. It’s either because there are really much more than 6 people working on them, or those people are 1000% more effective than other teams.

Which one, doesn’t matter really – what matters is that any new content, if it’s going to be released at a good rate, will have to come from the same team. So, either we’ll get them to adapt raids for wider audience, or we’ll get them to work on other projects too (like dungeons and fractals). The first is going to cost them less effort and time than the second.

Astralporing.1957:

I’d be very, very glad if Raids weren’t the main focus and centerpiece of GW2. Currently however that’s not true. They are the endgame content. As long as they’ll continue to have that place, we’ll have problems that lie at the basis of this thread (and others like it).

Raids are not the main focus or centerpiece of GW2. That is a lie and you know it.
Please stop making such things up if they are completely untrue and just devised by yourself!

Also, we have several endgame things like dungeons, fractals, open world bosses and more. If not to say skins are the real endgame.
The main focus is LS3 at the moment, fractal update and the expansion. All of them we will see in the near future and it’s highly doubtful that we will see another raid or raid wing before the next expansion. The reason why raids are popular now is because they were slow (obviously due to the little team) and couldn’t and wouldn’t release the complete raid at launch of HoT.

I still think the underlying issue is that raids, in the form they provided them, do not fit well in the GW2 structure. Moreso than any other content, they build barriers between players and encourage divisiveness, feelings of being left out and, to a varying degree, elitism/nasty behavior.

While there was a tiny bit of this associated with dungeons and fractals, it never really impacted how people play the game or their ability to enjoy content – partly because, in the case of fractals, there was a pretty good tiered difficulty model.

A reason this topic keeps coming up – and why a percentage of the community looks negatively on raids – relates back to those barriers and the inability to enjoy the game via varied playstyles (which has always been a staple of GW2, imo).

If this is the planned path for future raids, I, personally, would rather they abandoned them altogether. That said, however, I would prefer that they look to solve this issue instead – and offer raids in a way that doesn’t create those barriers.

Astralporing.1957:

DutchRiders.2871:

Sure if the main focus of gw2 becomes raids, the bulk of resources should be allocated to raids and in such a case different difficulty levels would be welcome. However we have plenty of other options and raids are only a small part of the game.

I’d be very, very glad if Raids weren’t the main focus and centerpiece of GW2. Currently however that’s not true. They are the endgame content. As long as they’ll continue to have that place, we’ll have problems that lie at the basis of this thread (and others like it).

At this point, there are two options available: either make raids available to the wider public (by introducing easy mode), or bring them down a peg in the devs’ importance ladder.

Do you really think that raiders are going to take the second any better than the first?

Additionally, for some reason or another, raids are being created at an extremely high rate – greater than any other content. It’s either because there are really much more than 6 people working on them, or those people are 1000% more effective than other teams.

Which one, doesn’t matter really – what matters is that any new content, if it’s going to be released at a good rate, will have to come from the same team. So, either we’ll get them to adapt raids for wider audience, or we’ll get them to work on other projects too (like dungeons and fractals). The first is going to cost them less effort and time than the second.

All content in gw2 is relevant and in a sense endgame, raids are simply challenging end game content. Now I will agree that the nature of the challenge that is raids makes clearing them such a rewarding experience compared to open world etc.

The raid was part of HoT and was released in small increments and thus it seems like a bigger content stream and faster rates than is actually the case. We have gotten 4 new maps, 2 fractal revamps, open world revamps, shatterer update, gliding in tyria and small events leading up to LS3. We still have confirmed LS3 and fractals comming up. I had say most of the content released has nothing to do with raids. Lets look in 1 year what group has received more content.

Lets switch the current LS team with the raid team, I guarantee you we would have 2 more raids by years end and you wont have LS3 till next year. You are simply misinformed and the real problem is the content drought ( which has nothing to do with raids) and as a result players not interested in raids are irritated with raids getting 3 wings in 8 months.

Arenanet is fine with the current situation. They dont have to opt for any of your choices, they know more about allocating resources and whats important for the game than any of us players.

Blaeys.3102:

If this is the planned path for future raids, I, personally, would rather they abandoned them altogether. That said, however, I would prefer that they look to solve this issue instead – and offer raids in a way that doesn’t create those barriers.

The raid team has moved on to other things. Personally, I would rather Anet just go back to focusing on re-building a solid lateral end game then mess with raids any further.

STIHL.2489:

Blaeys.3102:

If this is the planned path for future raids, I, personally, would rather they abandoned them altogether. That said, however, I would prefer that they look to solve this issue instead – and offer raids in a way that doesn’t create those barriers.

The raid team has moved on to other things. Personally, I would rather Anet just go back to focusing on re-building a solid lateral end game then mess with raids any further.

Yes they moved on to making new raids, which is awesome considering the quality of the content and that so many people enjoy it

Aesa.4819:

STIHL.2489:

Blaeys.3102:

If this is the planned path for future raids, I, personally, would rather they abandoned them altogether. That said, however, I would prefer that they look to solve this issue instead – and offer raids in a way that doesn’t create those barriers.

The raid team has moved on to other things. Personally, I would rather Anet just go back to focusing on re-building a solid lateral end game then mess with raids any further.

Yes they moved on to making new raids, which is awesome considering the quality of the content and that so many people enjoy it

The issue has never been about quality. It is about accessibility.

When GW2 launched, it was a success in big part because it offered a fairly unique alternative to every other MMO out there. The biggest difference was, imo, the way the game offered the same experience to every player (at least in PVE). There was no hierarchy of player separated by terms like raider or hardcore.

This appealed to a lot of people – even some hardcore raiders like myself looking for something friendlier and community focused. GW2 was the perfect game in that aspect.

The raid team did an amazing job at making the fights engaging. But, at the same time, they forgot about (or, more accurately, chose to ignore) the issue of accessibility – the very thing that made this game different and appealing to so many at launch.

As odd as it sounds, the addition of single difficulty raids designed for a small subset of players has not been good for the game or the community, imo – because this game, for many of us, was supposed to be about something different. It was the game that didn’t build those walls and separate PVE players by their gear or how dedicated they were to the game.

I do hope they continue to make raids, but only if they get back to the basic premise that set this game apart from all of those others. They need to get creative and come up with a way to develop raids that fit with the overall feel and underlying philosophies of GW2 – which, to me, means accessibility.

The only problem I am having with the raid is the boss kill timer on VG, I have only tried about 6 times over the course of them being released (First couple of tries where on their release) but every time we get it to 5% and we wipe because a single person died, just one person so their dps doesn’t get to take off that 5% over the course of their death.

I have not done anything after VG for obvious reasons so I don’t know about anything else but is the timer to kill the thing before that huge attack or w/e it is really needed?

All that promotes is min maxing and forcing everyone to play their class exactly like everyone else in a game that was supposed to allow you to play how you wish with.

If they want to continue doing raids then they should do it in a way that is true to what GW 2 is, a game that lets you play how you want, not forcing you into full damage roles with peek damage and dps or tanking roles because then they are just going in a direction that isn’t what GW is and if they want to continue going along with the raid idea then they lose a big chunk of their audience then also have to make raids that top their competitors.

Finally they would need to bring content out simultaneously, new raid plus a new portion to the games pve, like how FF 14 brings out stuff in chunks every 4 months give or take.

Blaeys.3102:

If this is the planned path for future raids, I, personally, would rather they abandoned them altogether. That said, however, I would prefer that they look to solve this issue instead – and offer raids in a way that doesn’t create those barriers.

Can you imagine if you replaced “raids” with “wvw” or “pvp”? I’m sure only a fraction of players play this content too, and it’s just as “accessible” as raids.

This is why raiders understandably get upset at these types of posts.

And I’m still not sure what makes raids so inaccessible.