Guild Wars 2

TexZero.7910:

You know what other system puts the onus on the player ? The one we currently have, that has ONE mode. You know what the benefit of that is ? Everyone who raids is in the same pool which means you have a larger playerbase to link up with. If you cannot handle this don’t go blaming the system. It’s the player.

So giving players a wider number of raiding options is somehow a BAD thing? You have a pretty interesting logic.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Is Accessiblity.

Getting into raiding once your in it isnt hard, once you’ve found a good static, or people good enough to get you into a decent training guild/training run regieme you can genuinely get through raiding fine, the difficulty isnt as hard as some might be afraid to think it is.

Id say the challenge of most raids is on par with normal mode world of warcraft for those familiar with the concept, as a comparison for refference, its accessably dooable and hell some of it can even be done with mostly exotics though id still recommend having at least ascended armor/weapons before investing into raiding, maybe a backpack too.

I would however admit, that it took me a while, like, a whole year and then some to finally “find” someone willing to take me on, Im not a confident person, the group im with though, they’re awesome, some of the best, genuinley.

And as times gone on, we went from clearing maybe 3 bosses a week, to literally clearing the entire raid, a week.

We’ve even recently done CM Cairne, I got the eternal title, working on slip-slub, is it achievable? Yes, is it hard, quite probably yes.

Now I will say again, the accessiblity can be demanding, I find alot of pug raids demand a rediculas number of LI’s even if you clearly have done some of the harder achievements in the game which honestly makes it obnoxious.

My proposal to A-net is something akin to a soft LFR like wow. My suggestion essentially is this, a tutorial mode much like how everyone keeps asking for story mode.

Tutorial mode would essentially be the beginners guide to raiding, much like how we have CM and current normal, tutorial mode would be designed for people more interested in the story, but also be designed to give you a much “much” easier time getting “into” raids for the first time.

My idea for this works as follows:

Tutorial motes are similar to challenge motes, but instead of blue glowing motes, you get a green glowing one.

When tutorial mode is activated, the damage the boss deals is significantly nerfed, and the boss enrage timer is made alot longer.

However, in this mode it is literally impossible to get raid rewards from the bosses, but you can however get mastery contribution, aswell as a very MINOR amount of mag shards, were talking maybe…, 2-3 per boss.

Some might say this would make raiding completley Irelevent but I disagree, this is “the” compramise raiding needs, because now, you have no excuse. Accessability via tutorial mode would give people the means to get into raiding, much like infantile mode to SAB. It would be designed to help you START the experience, and help unfamilair players do the bosses for the first time.

Tutorial mode would also extend to the training ground, which could be accessed now een without a squad, tutorial mode basically allows you to familiarize yourself with your class, and the general role your speicalizatoin favors such as Chronomancer Tanks, Druid Healers, etc etc.

By training people with an automated system we can essentially remove the need for trianing groups and eventially have everyone more or less ready for raiding in no time. I say keep the current difficulty, and CM, but add a training mode, to help new players who want to get into raiding for the first time.

You are perfectly right about the major issue being accessibility. If you can rely on a steady group, raids will be fine. However, if you can’t commit to any fixed schedule because your job prevent you to, raids are going to be a major pain in the ass more often than not.

I like the idea you propose. I think it might help without lessening the difficulty.

Blaeys.3102:

But raid training runs, while a noble concept, do not address many of the key concerns – and become a pretty rare occurrence when things start to get stale for the harder core raiders leading them.

Anyone who wants to raid can create their own training runs, that’s how many of us did it, including myself.

Blaeys.3102:

Even worse, they are often used by players to get higher skilled players to carry them through the content rather than teach them how to do it. That doesn’t really help the raid scene and probably feels tedious and unfun for everyone involved.

Again, training raids do not have to be led by vets. Additionally, this exact problem happens all the time in fractals. My friend (and experienced chrono) has literally out dpsed eles who have no idea what they are doing in t4 fractals. These players didn’t learn anything from t1-t3.

Blaeys.3102:

I also think it’s worth bringing up since it was in a blog post today – the idea of raids consuming only a small amount of ANet’s time and resources pretty much went out the window with the Legendary Armor blog post today. The writer specifically talks about the huge amount of work – even rewriting core system – that went into developing it. That pretty much negates any argument that this is a niche corner of content that doesn’t affect developmental resources for the rest of the game.

Well, this blog post was about legendary armor not raids. They happen to be intertwined right now. But personally I think legendary armor required too much effort to leave as raid exclusive rewards. I think other content needs its own route to that reward (not an easier route however, just a different one). I think eventually wvw will gain a means to this armor.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

You know what other system puts the onus on the player ? The one we currently have, that has ONE mode. You know what the benefit of that is ? Everyone who raids is in the same pool which means you have a larger playerbase to link up with. If you cannot handle this don’t go blaming the system. It’s the player.

So giving players a wider number of raiding options is somehow a BAD thing? You have a pretty interesting logic.

You sure have some fun ways of using really horrible logical fallacies there.

Let me just use your logic for you.

Show me 10 people who would regularly organize an easy mode raid and do it.

Right…. Case in point.

The problem you guys who perpetually scream for an easy mode is, 90% of the time don’t bother organizing or finding the right group of people to raid with. The other 10% is people who want the rewards for half the work. I’d be generous and say there’s people who want story but those people simply don’t exist. If they really just wanted story they’d use the internet and watch the raids from a streamers PoV or look up all the juicy story on youtube.

Seeing as all of that is the case nothing anet does will please you guys. Not a “easy” mode which would only serve to segregate the community even further than what you claim it has done. So please spare us the sob story, raid or don’t. The ball is in your court.

So what your saying is raids do not fit in a casual game by design?

I’m personally bitter at Arenanet, and by extension raiding because after all this time, they finally add cool legendary armor, but they lock it behind an exclusionary, oftentimes militant game mode rather than spend time finding ways to integrate it into all game modes.

Bandrell.4357:

I’m personally bitter at Arenanet, and by extension raiding because after all this time, they finally add cool legendary armor, but they lock it behind an exclusionary, oftentimes militant game mode rather than spend time finding ways to integrate it into all game modes.

I’m a raider and i personally disagree with the whole non-accessability thing. I think raids are very accessible if you want to get into them. It just requires time, patience and initiative.

However i do agree with you that there should be WvW leg armor and PvP leg armor with different skins.

Jski.6180:

So what your saying is raids do not fit in a casual game by design?

That is exactly what the game is about for me. A casual gamer that has been getting his ascended tier in any way he wants is equal in stats to a raider that has been farming raids to get his legendary gear. Nothing more, nothing less.

TexZero.7910:

You sure have some fun ways of using really horrible logical fallacies there.

Let me just use your logic for you.

Show me 10 people who would regularly organize an easy mode raid and do it.

Literally anyone who want to start getting raid experience, because easier mode will be very puggable and without absurd demands like current 100+ LI for Escort or VG.
Like, you know, it happening in normal MMO raid games.

TexZero.7910:

The problem you guys who perpetually scream for an easy mode is, 90% of the time don’t bother organizing or finding the right group of people to raid with. The other 10% is people who want the rewards for half the work. I’d be generous and say there’s people who want story but those people simply don’t exist. If they really just wanted story they’d use the internet and watch the raids from a streamers PoV or look up all the juicy story on youtube.

Seeing as all of that is the case nothing anet does will please you guys. Not a “easy” mode which would only serve to segregate the community even further than what you claim it has done. So please spare us the sob story, raid or don’t. The ball is in your court.

I heard that since… what, 2005? Make your own raid, bla-bla, you just have to keep trying, we don’t need anything more, ya-da-da. And in the end every serious MMO with raids realized that single difficulty is a failure, and your arguments not working at all.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

You sure have some fun ways of using really horrible logical fallacies there.

Let me just use your logic for you.

Show me 10 people who would regularly organize an easy mode raid and do it.

Literally anyone who want to start getting raid experience, because easier mode will be very puggable and without absurd demands like current 100+ LI for Escort or VG.
Like, you know, it happening in normal MMO raid games.

So create your own raid training run, with your own requirements. Problem solved. Surely if there are as many people as you who dislike that requirement, you shouldn’t have any trouble finding a group.

Also, Guild Wars 2 is not a serious raiding game. It is a casual game that extends it’s main story through open world patches, and provides a niche content in raids for
those who want more challenging content. Creating a tiered system removed the “challenging” part from that statement, it also will require more dev resources and make raiding a more central part of the game. I do not want that, nor do plenty of others. Raiding in this game was developed as niche content, and should remain that way.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Is Accessiblity.

Accessibility is indeed a major topic for discussion on Raids.

Let’s see the issues with this:

By training people with an automated system we can essentially remove the need for trianing groups and eventially have everyone more or less ready for raiding in no time.

First, let’s talk about pugs. You say that pugs post ridiculous requirements for Raids, in the form of LI. How is this tutorial mode going to help if the players will get no LI from running it? You believe that pug requirements will magically disappear if a tutorial mode is added to the game?

Regarding player made requirements, how is this tutorial mode going to help players to enter the actual Raids beyond the tutorial mode?

Second, about the bosses and training. You say you want the bosses to deal significantly less damage, but the damage bosses deal isn’t a problem in nearly all raid encounters. It’s missing the mechanics that causes wipes, not the boss damage. Now tell me if someone can ignore a mechanic, how would that allow a player to learn anything about the actual Raid? It’s more likely that they will learn the wrong way of dealing with the mechanics. This of course extends to instant kills, can’t reduce the damage of an instant kill because it doesn’t do any damage.

You say that with this tutorial mode you won’t need training runs anymore, but if the tutorial teaches you the wrong things then how useful can it be as a form of training?

Third, let’s say that the above issues do not exist and this tutorial mode will in fact train players for the normal Raids, “in no time” as you say. Wouldn’t that mean that sooner or later the tutorial mode will run out of players who want to run it? If you also remove the rewards, what’s the incentive for anyone, other than those who wish to train, to re-run the tutorial mode? Experienced players won’t run it, players training on it will get ready for the normal raids “in no time”, so eventually this tutorial mode will be a ghost town.

The main problem with this tutorial mode as you described it is incentive. What’s the incentive to re-run the tutorial mode for a boss, you’ve beaten (and know) already?
A similar issue is true for the challenge motes, what’s the point of re-running them once you complete them once? I think this question contains the answer to a “tutorial mode” as well.

Story mode vs training mode
A new mode that helps players to experience the story of the Raids, is not the same as a mode to train players for the Raids. They are two completely different things and should be treated as such. A potential good mode for training will still be a bad option for anyone who wants to experience the story alone. A good mode for anyone to experience the story would probably be a horrible way of teaching mechanics and training players. A story mode doesn’t need any incentive for rewards, it should even be solo-able, or doable with a lower amount of people (see Arah story mode). A mode for any kind of meaningful training needs lots of incentive to re-run it so it doesn’t run out of players who are willing to play it and even allows experienced players to run it and help newcomers. (see T1 Fractals)

Two completely different “modes” that apply to different people.

I need to add one more thing.

Tutorial motes are similar to challenge motes, but instead of blue glowing motes, you get a green glowing one.
When tutorial mode is activated, the damage the boss deals is significantly nerfed, and the boss enrage timer is made alot longer.

Challenge mote and tutorial mote

You first go and say that a tutorial mote should be like a challenge mote. And then you describe something that never happens in challenge motes.

Do challenge motes change the amount of damage bosses do? No.
Do challenge motes reduce the enrage timer? No.

What do challenge motes actually do? They ADD new mechanics and sometimes tweak old ones, but most of the encounter mechanics are the exact same between the CM and NM version.

I read once on these forums that “if they can add a CM, they can add an easy mote”, but that’s completely false. A CM doesn’t modify the entire fight, like reducing the damage of all mechanics or making all mechanics easier to deal with. A CM is focused in adding one extra gimmick to any fight, it doesn’t change the entire fight like most posts on easy mode want to do.

For a “tutorial mode” to be similar to a CM, you need to remove a mechanic, or tweak it, from the fight and keep everything else the exact same. No tweaks to damage, no tweaks to enrage timers or boss hit points. Do what CMs do and the “if they can add a CM they can add an easy mode” will actually be true. That way you can actually train for the boss, train for the mechanics of it and keep in mind that in the normal mode some part of the fight will be tweaked, the same way a CM tweaks parts of the fight and not the whole encounter.

Now which mechanic to tweak or remove, that’s the tricky part, although in some cases it’s relatively easy, when the boss has clear phases, you can tweak the last phase, or a mechanic of the last phase.

Fatalyz.7168:

So create your own raid training run, with your own requirements. Problem solved. Surely if there are as many people as you who dislike that requirement, you shouldn’t have any trouble finding a group.

Aka “make your own raid group”. Was tested in every raid game before GW2. Not working for majority of players.

Fatalyz.7168:

Also, Guild Wars 2 is not a serious raiding game. It is a casual game that extends it’s main story through open world patches, and provides a niche content in raids for those who want more challenging content.

So, you are going to say that anet will stop making more raids? Or at least stop making more raids than ALL other new instanced repeatable content put together?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

So create your own raid training run, with your own requirements. Problem solved. Surely if there are as many people as you who dislike that requirement, you shouldn’t have any trouble finding a group.

Aka “make your own raid group”. Was tested in every raid game before GW2. Not working for majority of players.

If it isn’t working for them, either they aren’t trying hard enough, or there aren’t as many people like them as they think.

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Also, Guild Wars 2 is not a serious raiding game. It is a casual game that extends it’s main story through open world patches, and provides a niche content in raids for those who want more challenging content.

So, you are going to say that anet will stop making more raids? Or at least stop making more raids than ALL other new instanced repeatable content put together?

Well let’s see, we had one raid that was supposed to come with HoT, that consisted of 3 wings. It was delayed a little after the release of HoT for final polishing and because the story was supposed to take place after the events of HoT. Since that third wing was released, it was 9 months until another Raid was released. This new raid has only one wing. We do not know how long it will be until another Raid is released, but based on current pace, we could estimate approximately 9 months or a little less, we can hope. In that 9 months, 4 new open world maps and story updates were released (the 4th map and story update coming with the 2nd raid). There were also 2 new fractals released (regardless of how you feel about the assets used in them, they are still “new” repeatable instances), several reworks to existing fractals, we know that a new fractal instance is on the way, along with more reworks. I think it’s a fair assessment and assumption at this point, to realize that they are putting out way more content in other areas, at a faster pace, than they currently are with raids.

For nearly a year I have been in a casual static guild group. In terms of skill I’d say about half of the players who usually run with us, are under the 50th percentile. This has given me a chance to notice what makes raids so difficult for a lot of the more casual end of the skill spectrum, at least as far as bosses we have cleared are concerned.

To give some examples :

(VG) An easy mode won’t help here. There are 3 common issues that result in wipes:
—-1) People get tunnel vision when DPSing the boss and miss green circles. This is the most common issue.
—-2) People get tunnel vision when DPSing the boss, and don’t notice blue circles, get teleported, and die. This is the second most common issue.
—-3) The tank doesn’t know how to tank properly. This is the least common issue, because there are only a few things you have to look out for to tank VG properly, and once you understand those, tanking VG is probably easier than being on the other side of VG.

The 3rd issue simply involves remembering a pattern, the first 2 issues however are common because there are a lot of players who seem to be unable to split their attention between 2 to 3 tasks. Namely, DPS rotation, green circles, blue circles. The only way to make this boss easy, is to basically make green circles and blue circles a non-issue, in which case, you might as well just make it a DPS golem.

(Gorseval) : The chronos and druids can carry the group. Not much to say here honestly. This is probably one of the easiest encounters if you just bring someone to clear orbs. Even our casual group was able to carry a completely new player who was properly geared. If people are wiping on this raid encounter, it’s because they “stand in the fire.” By which I mean, they don’t avoid simple floor mechanics.

(Sabetha): This has probably given our group the most gripe. The reason being, this one requires personal responsibility. A bad player is more of a liability alive than dead in this fight. The most common issues here are
—-1) People getting hit by flame wall. I still can’t understand why this happens. Unless you get kicked into it by a thug, it’s extremely easy to avoid. It’s a super simple mechanic, yet people keep falling victim to it over and over again.
—-2) People stand in cannon fire. Again, it’s extremely easy to avoid, you have more than enough time to get out of the glowing circle, yet people ignore it.
—-3) People get tunnel vision and fail to throw sapper bombs. Strangely enough people forgetting to go to cannons is almost never an issue, people throwing sapper bombs is a common issue.

Finally
(KC) – This one is super simple to explain
—-1) Most common problem, the orb pusher doesn’t know how to push orbs. This is by far the most common problem. Not DPS, but a faulty orb pusher. If you can get a good orb pusher, they can basically carry the group.
—-2) People not dodging KC’s stomp. Simple floor mechanic.
—-3) People not being able to lure statues onto KC.

My Point—-
It’s difficult to advocate an easy mode, or a tutorial mode, for a lot of these bosses when you know that 99% of the time the problem is simply people not paying attention. That’s it, that is what causes the majority of wipes. Matthias and Xera are probably the only raids that are significantly difficult at the moment. The rest can be accomplished easily if people simply payed attention to floor mechanics while DPSing, though the majority simply get tunnel vision and forget about them. So essentially, an easy mode for a lot of existing bosses would entail simply changing the bosses into pure DPS golems. None of the bosses do significant damage, they already are basically just tank and spank. The difficulty, is pretty much entirely in the floor mechanics, which they themselves are easy to manage, as long as you pay attention to them.

Fatalyz.7168:

If it isn’t working for them, either they aren’t trying hard enough, or there aren’t as many people like them as they think.

Again, that was brought to discussion countless times long before GW2. Raid teaching is not working that way, unless you aim at some miserable percent of participating players, while others will be left unsatisfied.

Fatalyz.7168:

Well let’s see, we had one raid that was supposed to come with HoT, that consisted of 3 wings. It was delayed a little after the release of HoT for final polishing and because the story was supposed to take place after the events of HoT. Since that third wing was released, it was 9 months until another Raid was released. This new raid has only one wing. We do not know how long it will be until another Raid is released, but based on current pace, we could estimate approximately 9 months or a little less, we can hope. In that 9 months, 4 new open world maps and story updates were released (the 4th map and story update coming with the 2nd raid). There were also 2 new fractals released (regardless of how you feel about the assets used in them, they are still “new” repeatable instances), several reworks to existing fractals, we know that a new fractal instance is on the way, along with more reworks. I think it’s a fair assessment and assumption at this point, to realize that they are putting out way more content in other areas, at a faster pace, than they currently are with raids.

I was talking about instanced content, not maps or LS. They are not repeatable enough to keep players busy and satisfied. So far in HoT we have 0 new dungeons and 2 new fractals against 4 new raid wings, this is a fact, pure and simple. And yet people are making big eyes and trying to tell that anet is not making raids their focus for instanced pve.

Ging.6485:

It’s difficult to advocate an easy mode, or a tutorial mode, for a lot of these bosses when you know that 99% of the time the problem is simply people not paying attention. That’s it, that is what causes the majority of wipes. Matthias and Xera are probably the only raids that are significantly difficult at the moment. The rest can be accomplished easily if people simply payed attention to floor mechanics while DPSing, though the majority simply get tunnel vision and forget about them. So essentially, an easy mode for a lot of existing bosses would entail simply changing the bosses into pure DPS golems. None of the bosses do significant damage, they already are basically just tank and spank. The difficulty, is pretty much entirely in the floor mechanics, which they themselves are easy to manage, as long as you pay attention to them.

Thing is – to pay attention you need to get at least SOME experience first. See boss arena, see boss, see his abilities, animations, timers, effects. Only after that you can start to build your fight pattern and learn when to dodge/run/burst/CC and so on. And on top of that there single difficuly PLUS hard raid wipe design, where you cannot use battleres like in WoW, so every big mistake is making fight much harder and probably impossible to complete/phase.
That makes process of getting GW2 raid experience much harder than in WoW. And no, watching youtube barely helps.

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

If it isn’t working for them, either they aren’t trying hard enough, or there aren’t as many people like them as they think.

Again, that was brought to discussion countless times long before GW2. Raid teaching is not working that way, unless you aim at some miserable percent of participating players, while others will be left unsatisfied.

If you aren’t able to find enough like-minded people to play with, perhaps there isn’t a need to increase accessibility for less than 10 other people?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Well let’s see, we had one raid that was supposed to come with HoT, that consisted of 3 wings. It was delayed a little after the release of HoT for final polishing and because the story was supposed to take place after the events of HoT. Since that third wing was released, it was 9 months until another Raid was released. This new raid has only one wing. We do not know how long it will be until another Raid is released, but based on current pace, we could estimate approximately 9 months or a little less, we can hope. In that 9 months, 4 new open world maps and story updates were released (the 4th map and story update coming with the 2nd raid). There were also 2 new fractals released (regardless of how you feel about the assets used in them, they are still “new” repeatable instances), several reworks to existing fractals, we know that a new fractal instance is on the way, along with more reworks. I think it’s a fair assessment and assumption at this point, to realize that they are putting out way more content in other areas, at a faster pace, than they currently are with raids.

I was talking about instanced content, not maps or LS. They are not repeatable enough to keep players busy and satisfied. So far in HoT we have 0 new dungeons and 2 new fractals against 4 new raid wings, this is a fact, pure and simple. And yet people are making big eyes and trying to tell that anet is not making raids their focus for instanced pve.

You have several repeatable story instances that came with each LS update. Also again, you had 3 wings released in the middle of a content drought. 3 wings that were part of HoT , but not intentionally included with it’s release, we were told before hand that it would not ship with HoT, but be part of it. Removing those 3 wings, we have 2 new fractal instances, a new fractal on the way (should be here relatively shortly), several reworks, and 1 new raid. Where do you see that they are putting more effort in Raids? Because you can’t accept that there was a content drought and new content coming that was already supposed to have been part of the expac?

Rednik.3809:

Thing is – to pay attention you need to get at least SOME experience first. See boss arena, see boss, see his abilities, animations, timers, effects. Only after that you can start to build your fight pattern and learn when to dodge/run/burst/CC and so on. And on top of that there single difficuly PLUS hard raid wipe design, where you cannot use battleres like in WoW, so every big mistake is making fight much harder and probably impossible to complete/phase.
That makes process of getting GW2 raid experience much harder than in WoW. And no, watching youtube barely helps.

It’s a good thing no one records their boss kills and uploads them for the community to see and use as a learning tool, oh wait, that is exactly what happens. Are you saying that if you watched a video of a boss kill, you would learn nothing? That would seem to be a personal issue if so, not a game issue.

This is also what training runs are for, to help you get acclimated to the mechanics in the actual fight. It’s possible you want to get used to the mechanics (albiet having them do half damage or less) to give you a reasonable shot of killing the boss on first or second attempt without having to practice. However, if you keep practicing and failing, you will still have that reasonable shot of killing the boss, just not before you are able to get past the mechanics. You should not be able to kill a boss if mechanics are straight being ignored or missed, which is the reason for most wipes.

Yeah, im pretty much done with the asinine logic being presented here by the we want an easy mode crowd.

I’m sorry but when i’ve raided with people who have some serious debilitating conditions and those who can’t make a set schedule all the “excuses” being used are laughable.

It’s time to stop making excuses and just raid. Seriously.

And again to address the topic properly, i do agree there’s a problem with group finding but this is symptomatic of the entire games base design. Remember LFG didn’t even exist at launch (for all you saying how casual this game is). I’ve see better casual designs from F2P (cashgrabs) that have better Guild/Group finding tools than this game has current and had prior to its inception.

TexZero.7910:

Yeah, im pretty much done with the asinine logic being presented here by the we want an easy mode crowd.

I’m sorry but when i’ve raided with people who have some serious debilitating conditions and those who can’t make a set schedule all the “excuses” being used are laughable.

It’s time to stop making excuses and just raid. Seriously.

And again to address the topic properly, i do agree there’s a problem with group finding but this is symptomatic of the entire games base design. Remember LFG didn’t even exist at launch (for all you saying how casual this game is). I’ve see better casual designs from F2P (cashgrabs) that have better Guild/Group finding tools than this game has current and had prior to its inception.

If you do not want to be a part of the conversation, that is fine.

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

Again, I accept that – from perspectives like yours – there is little issue here. Truth is, I play the game differently than you do. And that is true of many others as well. A single raid mode doesnt work for everyone. It isnt about excuses. It is about legitimately believing multiple modes would improve the game for those people (while having no real impact on how people like you enjoy the game).

But, I respect that you feel differently. I even respect that you feel there is no issue here at all.

I respectfully disagree and definitely see the need to continue making that point on the forums.

Blaeys.3102:

A single raid mode doesnt work for everyone. It isnt about excuses. It is about legitimately believing multiple modes would improve the game for those people (while having no real impact on how people like you enjoy the game).

Of course a single raid mode isn’t going to work for everyone, it wasn’t even intended for everyone to take part in it. They have the option to take part, but are not required. It was to set a clear standard for challenging group content, not provide an experience that everyone would take part in. This game isn’t about it’s raiding experience, as it isn’t even the main focus of this game, nor should it become that. In order to maintain it’s place, it needs to remain niche content. Which is content for people that are looking for challenging group content.

Blaeys.3102:

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

The real problem with threads like these is that no one is going to change their mind over these discussions. There’s nothing new that can be added to this topic, and it has been discussed a thousand times before (oftentimes with the same people present). As a result of all of this, about the only thing that these threads really tell ANet reliably is that people are divided on the topic.

ANet has even responded that they are looking into ways to make the story more accessible by some means. While I have pretty strong feelings that this won’t be a “story mode” and will probably instead be something like a recap cinematic or whatever, who really knows. We should wait for more information from them.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Blaeys.3102:

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

The real problem with threads like these is that no one is going to change their mind over these discussions. There’s nothing new that can be added to this topic, and it has been discussed a thousand times before (oftentimes with the same people present). As a result of all of this, about the only thing that these threads really tell ANet reliably is that people are divided on the topic.

And that is perfectly fine. People are welcome to their opinions.

For those that do not feel there is anything more to say – there is no one forcing them to continue discussing it.

But at the same time, the fact that those people no longer want to discuss it doesn’t mean the conversation has to stop. It is a topic many, including myself, are still interested in discussing, even if there is some repetition in that dialogue.

For me, that is partially to make sure the topic remains relevant and visible to both the community and Anet, but it is also to make sure anyone new to the forums sees the conversation and can weigh in with their opinions.

It remains an important topic for some of us.

Blaeys.3102:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Blaeys.3102:

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

The real problem with threads like these is that no one is going to change their mind over these discussions. There’s nothing new that can be added to this topic, and it has been discussed a thousand times before (oftentimes with the same people present). As a result of all of this, about the only thing that these threads really tell ANet reliably is that people are divided on the topic.

And that is perfectly fine. People are welcome to their opinions.

For those that do not feel there is anything more to say – there is no one forcing them to continue discussing it.

But at the same time, the fact that those people no longer want to discuss it doesn’t mean the conversation has to stop. It is a topic many, including myself, are still interested in discussing, even if there is some repetition in that dialogue.

For me, that is partially to make sure the topic remains relevant and visible to both the community and Anet, but it is also to make sure anyone new to the forums sees the conversation and can weigh in with their opinions.

It remains an important topic for some of us.

There’s a difference between visibility and beating a dead horse.

There’s discussion for making holistic changes, then there’s i need the world to revolve around my uniqueness.

At the end of the day, the easy mode crowd needs to realize that and stop beating a dead horse. You’re becoming as bad as the “mounts” crowd.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The real problem with threads like these is that no one is going to change their mind over these discussions.

That’s because most (all?) of these threads are way too general, too vague and this one is no exception. And then once flaws and benefits for any such “suggestion” come up they are getting buried and of course people discussing their own ideas of an easy mode instead of what’s in the opening posts.

I don’t think anyone deep down can say that there is no problem with the “LI system” and say that this whole “you need x amount of LI to even start Raids” is a good thing.

Fatalyz.7168:

If you aren’t able to find enough like-minded people to play with, perhaps there isn’t a need to increase accessibility for less than 10 other people?

That “social” raid model died like what, 10 years ago in other games?

Fatalyz.7168:

You have several repeatable story instances that came with each LS update. Also again, you had 3 wings released in the middle of a content drought. 3 wings that were part of HoT , but not intentionally included with it’s release, we were told before hand that it would not ship with HoT, but be part of it. Removing those 3 wings, we have 2 new fractal instances, a new fractal on the way (should be here relatively shortly), several reworks, and 1 new raid. Where do you see that they are putting more effort in Raids? Because you can’t accept that there was a content drought and new content coming that was already supposed to have been part of the expac?

Like new fractals were supposed to be in xpack too. And yet – 4 wings vs 2 fractals. They are all part of the same addon.

Fatalyz.7168:

It’s a good thing no one records their boss kills and uploads them for the community to see and use as a learning tool, oh wait, that is exactly what happens. Are you saying that if you watched a video of a boss kill, you would learn nothing? That would seem to be a personal issue if so, not a game issue.

Learn something =/= learn boss encounter, just like watching a kung-fu movie wont make you a skilled fighter. You can learn some things, maybe more if video have your spec PoV and explanations, but that’s all. Without practice it’s not working.

Fatalyz.7168:

This is also what training runs are for, to help you get acclimated to the mechanics in the actual fight. It’s possible you want to get used to the mechanics (albiet having them do half damage or less) to give you a reasonable shot of killing the boss on first or second attempt without having to practice. However, if you keep practicing and failing, you will still have that reasonable shot of killing the boss, just not before you are able to get past the mechanics. You should not be able to kill a boss if mechanics are straight being ignored or missed, which is the reason for most wipes.

Training runs are still poor substitute for tiered difficulty.
1. They are “charity”, and because of that not systematical. You can found 10 W1 runs and zero W3 ones. Or 2 W3 and no W1. Or maybe VG for a whole week. It all depends only on good will of people who are making them and your blind luck to log in and catch one you need.
2. They are still prone to wipes. Someone important died? You all will wipe. Few of less important people died? You will wipe most likely. And you just lost all opportunities to learn your role in encounter further and have to start over with everyone else, even if you executed your part perfectly.
3. They are not helping with LI wall. Due to limited nature of training runs they are not producing a lot of experienced people, so initiative of keeping LI wall for experienced raiders remains. Actually, very existence of training runs means that system is not working as intended and new players cannot learn by themselves.

Actually Rednik new players can learn by themselves, or otherwise there would be no one clearing Raids since everyone learned from somewhere, every single one of your posts seems to imply that the average Gw2 isn’t all that smart since you always make statements like, “new players cannot learn by themselves.” Which guess what the people that originally cleared each Boss were new to Raids and learned/beat them by themselves, and there is no LI wall especially if they make their own raids, it’s not like there isn’t actual information on all the Raid bosses available to give them a leg up that the original raiders didn’t have.

Just saying your view of the average Gw2 player is abysmal, thinking they can’t learn from observation.

My guild is helping new raiders several days every week just for fun. We had amazing success and brought first kills to many players now. There’s almost nothing cooler if you see (& hear in TS) happy players after getting their first LI. We also recruit from time to time and people who have killed Escort, VG and rarely Gorse are beating 10/11 out of 13 bosses after 4 weeks of playing raids.

You can summarize as followed: People that really want to raid and get bosses down find a way – and relatively easy.
The only ppl against raids are the ones who don’t try, just blame it for some reasons and still don’t put a little bit effort into it.

Rednik’s criticism only reflects the attitude of embittered players – nothing more. Every other player gave it a go and realized that getting in touch with raids is not a magic thing or a big hurdle.

Rednik.3809:

That “social” raid model died like what, 10 years ago in other games?

Funny enough, it seems to work extremely well here. Maybe not for everyone, but then it wasn’t supposed to.

Rednik.3809:

Like new fractals were supposed to be in xpack too. And yet – 4 wings vs 2 fractals. They are all part of the same addon.

Where did they advertise new fractals shipping with HoT vs HoT shipping with a raid, that would be delayed for reasons?

Rednik.3809:

Learn something =/= learn boss encounter, just like watching a kung-fu movie wont make you a skilled fighter. You can learn some things, maybe more if video have your spec PoV and explanations, but that’s all. Without practice it’s not working.

And that knowledge gained from watching videos of raids, directly helps with training runs, and helping you get into a run to get the practice you need to get the kill. It all ties in together quite nicely.

Rednik.3809:

Training runs are still poor substitute for tiered difficulty.
1. They are “charity”, and because of that not systematical. You can found 10 W1 runs and zero W3 ones. Or 2 W3 and no W1. Or maybe VG for a whole week. It all depends only on good will of people who are making them and your blind luck to log in and catch one you need.

Make friends, invite said friends to do Raid, profit. Or post your own LFG, you’ll get people. It’s entirely dependent on the person who wants to get into raiding and how much effort they want to put in. They don’t want to put in the effort of making friends, posting their own groups, or joining groups, that’s on them, not Anet.

It’s also silly to think of training runs as “charity”, because they help grow the raiding community. Yes, there is good will in it, which makes the community worth being part of.

Rednik.3809:

2. They are still prone to wipes. Someone important died? You all will wipe. Few of less important people died? You will wipe most likely. And you just lost all opportunities to learn your role in encounter further and have to start over with everyone else, even if you executed your part perfectly.

I don’t see anything wrong here with this, seems to be working as intended. If you are joining a training pug, expecting to get a kill in a couple of attempts, you are setting yourself up for failure. Simply because you will have no idea of the skill level of the other parties involved This is why guild and static groups are the best places to look for those who want to get into raiding (it was never intended to be easy to pug so expecting it to be is silly).

Rednik.3809:

3. They are not helping with LI wall. Due to limited nature of training runs they are not producing a lot of experienced people, so initiative of keeping LI wall for experienced raiders remains. Actually, very existence of training runs means that system is not working as intended and new players cannot learn by themselves.

Actually training runs were created by the community to help with easing newer players into raids, and giving them a starting point, not an example of a system not working. New players can absolutely learn by themselves. 10 brand new players just hit 80 and decide to group up and start doing raids. They are learning by themselves, and created their own “training run” just by deciding that they wanted to attempt to raid. Whether they do this or not, is not the point, the fact remains that they can do this, and I’m sure that there are some that do. But really, why spend the time figuring out the mechanics, when they have already been figured out?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Actually Rednik new players can learn by themselves, or otherwise there would be no one clearing Raids since everyone learned from somewhere

Thing is – these first ones were enthusiasts, and usually with skill and experience above average. Then less skilled/organized/dedicated followed their steps, and so on. But still there is an entry barrier for those who want to learn, and breaching that barrier require either dedicated group that will not fall apart after few hours of wipes, or some way to teach these players and avoid that wipe experience.
First option works fine by itself, but puts sharp cutout on percentage of players who will participate in raiding – not everyone is ready to become experienced trough wipefest.
Second option removes that natural cutoff and raises participation percentage a lot, but not appears by itself. Usually that way is opened up by game devs themselves, because nobody likes when developed content misses large (usually majority) of game auditory. In our case devs decided to ignore it, and it’s only partially covered by bandaid training runs made by community.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

every single one of your posts seems to imply that the average Gw2 isn’t all that smart since you always make statements like, “new players cannot learn by themselves.”

Some can, some cannot, some can but not good enough. In the end its all about desired participation percentage from overall player population, percentage of developed content for that slice, and percentage of satisfied paying customers with various combinations of previous two parameters. When that equation is decently balanced, you will get alive game and happy customers. When it balanced poorly, you can get something less desirable, or even a disaster like Wildstar.

Rednik.3809:

Thing is – these first ones were enthusiasts, and usually with skill and experience above average. Then less skilled/organized/dedicated followed their steps, and so on. But still there is an entry barrier for those who want to learn, and breaching that barrier require either dedicated group that will not fall apart after few hours of wipes, or some way to teach these players and avoid that wipe experience. First option works fine by itself, but puts sharp cutout on percentage of players who will participate in raiding – not everyone is ready to become experienced trough wipefest.

Wiping is part of the experience. You wipe and then you figure out what caused you to wipe, and make the necessary adjustments with yourself, or your group comp. You seem unwilling to accept that wiping is normal and acceptable, and in that light, raids probably aren’t for you, or for people who feel like the way that you describe.

Rednik.3809:

Second option removes that natural cutoff and raises participation percentage a lot, but not appears by itself. Usually that way is opened up by game devs themselves, because nobody likes when developed content misses large (usually majority) of game auditory. In our case devs decided to ignore it, and it’s only partially covered by bandaid training runs made by community.

The devs for GW2 actually intentionally developed content that would not be for the majority and was expected by the developers that a large portion of the game would miss out on it. And guess what else, they are OK with that, because they implemented them knowing that it would do this. There was nothing to ignore, they made a decision and went with it.

Rednik.3809:

Some can, some cannot, some can but not good enough. In the end its all about desired participation percentage from overall player population, percentage of developed content for that slice, and percentage of satisfied paying customers with various combinations of previous two parameters. When that equation is decently balanced, you will get alive game and happy customers. When it balanced poorly, you can get something less desirable, or even a disaster like Wildstar.

And since Raids are developed to be exclusionary content, it is perfectly acceptable to have some that can not, or those that can but not good enough.

You are right tho, in the end it’s about desired participation, and based on what Anet expected from Raids, I’d say they have more than reached their desired population, maybe even surpassed it.

Rednik.3809:

But still there is an entry barrier for those who want to learn, and breaching that barrier require either dedicated group that will not fall apart after few hours of wipes, or some way to teach these players and avoid that wipe experience.
First option works fine by itself, but puts sharp cutout on percentage of players who will participate in raiding – not everyone is ready to become experienced trough wipefest.

If you are going into a learning experience expecting to not fail and not enter a ‘wipefest’, you are not there to learn. Learning requires failure, it is how it works for everything and raid skill is no different from learning to catch a ball.

You are not going to catch that ball the first time, or the second time, or the third. Your brain needs that failure to analyse and adjust parameters so that you are closer to achieving your goal of catching the ball. That is called learning. Do it enough times and you will eventually adapt enough to catch that ball but you need determination and commitment to do it.

If you are not ready to be experienced through wiping or failing, you are not ready to learn. This is the prevailing attitude I have noticed throughout threads like this and with some pugs that come across my training raids. These people feel they are entitled to learn raid without the risk of failure, no one gets that. That is not called learning, that is called having your hand held while people do the work for you, I don’t want people like this raiding with me it’s a bad attitude.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Actually Rednik new players can learn by themselves

Yes. Unfortunately, not everyone learns at the same rate, not everyone has the same potential, and not everyone likes the way of learning raids promote. And it just happens that for the majority of the players the process is either too lengthy, too painful, too unfun, or all of these together.
This has been true since first raids appeared in first MMO games, and GW2 is no exception. And the reason Raiders want it to stay that way is because most of them do not really want for the majority of players to be able to do them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

every single one of your posts seems to imply that the average Gw2 isn’t all that smart since you always make statements like, “new players cannot learn by themselves.”

It has absolutely no relations to intelligence. It’s muscle memory and reaction time. And being smart won’t make the learning process faster even a little bit.

Not every player is the same. The effort every person needs to put in to be able to do raids is different. For some it will be really easy, for others it will be harder. Also, the best ways of learning it are also different – some woud do fine when thrown into the deep water (the model now), others would rather take it slow, step by step (or they might drown).

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Actually Rednik new players can learn by themselves

Yes. Unfortunately, not everyone learns at the same rate, not everyone has the same potential, and not everyone likes the way of learning raids promote. And it just happens that for the majority of the players the process is either too lengthy, too painful, too unfun, or all of these together.
This has been true since first raids appeared in first MMO games, and GW2 is no exception. And the reason Raiders want it to stay that way is because most of them do not really want for the majority of players to be able to do them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

every single one of your posts seems to imply that the average Gw2 isn’t all that smart since you always make statements like, “new players cannot learn by themselves.”

It has absolutely no relations to intelligence. It’s muscle memory and reaction time. And being smart won’t make the learning process faster even a little bit.

Not every player is the same. The effort every person needs to put in to be able to do raids is different. For some it will be really easy, for others it will be harder. Also, the best ways of learning it are also different – some woud do fine when thrown into the deep water (the model now), others would rather take it slow, step by step (or they might drown).

The two most important factor to raid success isn’t skill at all.

The very first factor is going to be: Do you enjoy coordinated group content or you prefer doing your own things when you play a MMO? If you do not like to interact with other human beings (shocking coming from introverted computer gamers right?), it starts really badly for you and it make investing time and energy a hell of a lot harder.

The next factor is going to be how available you are to commit to a fixed schedule. Not everyone can do this to the same extend and it makes raiding soooo much more easier and less frustrating.

If you have answered no to both of the above, it’s going to be painful to get that armor. Like, really painful…

Astralporing.1957:

And the reason Raiders want it to stay that way is because most of them do not really want for the majority of players to be able to do them.

I will flat out disagree with this. I would say most raiders want to stay the way that it is, because they want the prestige that comes with completing it. Prestige comes from being able to accomplish things that other are not, nothing malicious in it.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

every single one of your posts seems to imply that the average Gw2 isn’t all that smart since you always make statements like, “new players cannot learn by themselves.”

Astralporing.1957:

It has absolutely no relations to intelligence. It’s muscle memory and reaction time. And being smart won’t make the learning process faster even a little bit.

Not every player is the same. The effort every person needs to put in to be able to do raids is different. For some it will be really easy, for others it will be harder. Also, the best ways of learning it are also different – some woud do fine when thrown into the deep water (the model now), others would rather take it slow, step by step (or they might drown).

And for players that can’t learn in the current environment, it wasn’t meant for them anyway, because what about “Challenging Group Content” would attract someone who isn’t up to a challenge?

It also doesn’t matter if everyone learns differently, this content was designed with a specific subset of players in mind, not as a one size fits all, or a find your challenge level.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Yeah, im pretty much done with the asinine logic being presented here by the we want an easy mode crowd.

I’m sorry but when i’ve raided with people who have some serious debilitating conditions and those who can’t make a set schedule all the “excuses” being used are laughable.

It’s time to stop making excuses and just raid. Seriously.

And again to address the topic properly, i do agree there’s a problem with group finding but this is symptomatic of the entire games base design. Remember LFG didn’t even exist at launch (for all you saying how casual this game is). I’ve see better casual designs from F2P (cashgrabs) that have better Guild/Group finding tools than this game has current and had prior to its inception.

If you do not want to be a part of the conversation, that is fine.

But we all need to do a better job of not belittling the opinions of others (and we all have to accept that our personal stances are just that – opinions).

Again, I accept that – from perspectives like yours – there is little issue here. Truth is, I play the game differently than you do. And that is true of many others as well. A single raid mode doesnt work for everyone. It isnt about excuses. It is about legitimately believing multiple modes would improve the game for those people (while having no real impact on how people like you enjoy the game).

But, I respect that you feel differently. I even respect that you feel there is no issue here at all.

I respectfully disagree and definitely see the need to continue making that point on the forums.

Raids are what ppl do that play the game differently than you.

Astralporing.1957:

This has been true since first raids appeared in first MMO games, and GW2 is no exception. And the reason Raiders want it to stay that way is because most of them do not really want for the majority of players to be able to do them.

I just want to point out that Astral doesn’t speak for all raiders. I don’t support tiers of difficulty because lower tiers will have magnetite shards as rewards, which will then force anet to make them useless, the exact same way fractal relics are worthless now. However a story mode with literally none of the raid specific rewards I support.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, the best ways of learning it are also different – some woud do fine when thrown into the deep water (the model now), others would rather take it slow, step by step (or they might drown).

Right, so start with escort, move to trio, them mursaat overseer, and gradually work up to Maathias and the wing 4 challenge motes etc.

What about a mode that doesn’t alter difficulty but just auto revives you like a revive orb if you go down? It would essentially be a God mode ensuring that as long as one person survives, you can just keep going. That could be the easy mode without having to fiddle with encounter difficulty or tuning mechanics. You’d lock out any kind of drops or rewards (maybe 1 shard for completion and that’s it). Gives people a chance to learn the mechanics without worrying too much about failure but would use up less development time than tuning a separate difficulty mode (hopefully).

Could call it training mode.

Ideally, I don’t think there should be an out and out easy mode but I feel like the current lfg tools and non existent in-game guild finder tools makes it a bit intimidating to step into raiding. Once you get the foot in the door though, it’s not nearly as difficult or inaccessible as people claim it is. I’m happy for a training mode as a means of compromise but my main problem with that is the infrequent releases of raids, let alone polishing, would be pushed back even further if such a thing were to be implemented.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The two most important factor to raid success isn’t skill at all.

That’s your own subjective classification tbh. Imho there are not one or two most important factors.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The very first factor is going to be: Do you enjoy coordinated group content or you prefer doing your own things when you play a MMO? If you do not like to interact with other human beings (shocking coming from introverted computer gamers right?), it starts really badly for you and it make investing time and energy a hell of a lot harder.

Sorry, this content was announced as Challenging Group Content. kitten , it’s not content for a single player. If someone wants to play a single player MMO then maybe GW2 and others aren’t the right games for him/her.
I also think that the number of introverted computer gamers is not that high that it legitimates to serve all content to them on a silver plate, especially not in GW2 – what a silly argument. It’s simple, if you want to have it, do something for it and get over your timidness. Outside of gaming there are thousands of situations where you have to communicate with other people. Almost everybody is able to do so there too – I factor out people with diseases but that’s a different thing. Just a little example: Somebody in a wheel chair also isn’t able to play soccer with others but there are possibilities to play other sports stuff like wheel chair basketball.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The next factor is going to be how available you are to commit to a fixed schedule. Not everyone can do this to the same extend and it makes raiding soooo much more easier and less frustrating.

You don’t need a fixed schedule. If you cannot get in a stale group to get all 13 weekly kills it’s possible to pug them. I do that every week before I run with my guild on Tuesday & Thursday. Even beginners can pug Escort, VG, Gorse, Mursaat Overseer and Samarog. For all of them there are many low LI groups besides the 200+ + Deimos KP bs groups.

There’s also that one hint: If you lack some of the required LIs, whisper to the commander that you are able to carry your own weight with some LI less. Some of my friends are doing it every week. They have been rejected rarely.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

If you have answered no to both of the above, it’s going to be painful to get that armor. Like, really painful…

Yeah, and in the end it’s not as painful as you want to present here.

CrustyBot.3564:

What about a mode that doesn’t alter difficulty but just auto revives you like a revive orb if you go down?

First, thanks for making an actual suggestion.

Now your suggestion has the exact same problems as the one by the OP.

The most important one, it lacks incentive. For any new mode for Raids you should ask yourself: “why would I run it?” if the answer is “to train for the normal mode Raids” then scrap it and think of something else.

Imagine the following, and this applies to anyone who wants a “tutorial mode”:
You cannot get the precursor collection items in T1 Fractals
You cannot get the daily research pages from T1 Fractals
You do not get any Pristine Relics from T1 completion anymore
Now T1 Fractals will only be used as “training” or “tutorial” mode for the higher tiers.

If that happened would anyone ever run T1 Fractals anymore? I’d say only fresh new players would, but eventually they’d have to move on because they wouldn’t be able to find enough players to play with. Although finding players wouldn’t be as problematic as Raids, because Fractals do not have a weekly lockout and they require 5 players, not 10.

Vinceman.4572:

That’s your own subjective classification tbh. Imho there are not one or two most important factors.

I guess you can argue it to a point, but I would reply 2 things to you here:

1) I don’t see you propose anything better.

2) Success in life, as well as in raid, is mainly going to be a matter of efforts. It is pretty rare to see people invest tons of time and energy into something they do not enjoy. The motivation for the carrot needs to be pretty strong to overcome this. If you do not invest time in something, no matter how talented you are, you won’t get any results.

And of course, it need to be possible for you to be were it matters when it matters. Of course you can tell your boss to put his job were the sun doesn’t shine because you are so willing to do raid every Monday night with a group you met, but most of us won’t cross that line for a leisure. And most group will also ask for a specific time commitment to accept you… bugger…

Sure, you can pug as a newby and organize practice groups yadayada. But, in all honesty, are you going to be willing to spend so much random time for something that isn’t your cup of tea to begin with (with the likely result of such groups on top of it)? And do you think pugging like that will help you gain positive experience that will improve your disposition toward that content? Me neither.

If you enjoy the content and can commit to a group schedule, skill and willingness will more than likely go up and the success you will ripe will reinforce everything. And so on and so forth.

Sorry, this content was announced as Challenging Group Content. kitten , it’s not content for a single player. If someone wants to play a single player MMO then maybe GW2 and others aren’t the right games for him/her.
I also think that the number of introverted computer gamers is not that high that it legitimates to serve all content to them on a silver plate, especially not in GW2 – what a silly argument. It’s simple, if you want to have it, do something for it and get over your timidness. Outside of gaming there are thousands of situations where you have to communicate with other people. Almost everybody is able to do so there too – I factor out people with diseases but that’s a different thing. Just a little example: Somebody in a wheel chair also isn’t able to play soccer with others but there are possibilities to play other sports stuff like wheel chair basketball.

I think I was not clear, so i’ll try and make it clearer…

Outside of the game lies a world that is made of obligations that indeed ask you to play along other humans in a structured fashion (my job ask me to help other humans btw and I like doing that). However, in a time and space of leisure, I might be less willing to compromise is the point I think you are missing (or just do not care grasping)…

Of course if for you the only variable in the equation is willingness to play, and that it is not subject to taste and time, it would make sense to view the wold the way you do… but as explained above, I do not agree with you and nor would my RL clients…

The thing is, people will do group content without too much fuss. It is structured and organized content that is the problem for them.

Just take a look at PVP or wvw… or PVE… everything in this game actually. If what you say is true, 80+% of ANET customers should take a hike and leave the game to the few PVE and wvw raiders as well as PVP pro league players. kitten you PVP yolo players, and wvw roamers or zergers. kitten you typical PVE player… Can ANET confirm that GW2 is not for us plz? I mean, I don’t want to be a burden to your real players…

Thank you.

You don’t need a fixed schedule. If you cannot get in a stale group to get all 13 weekly kills it’s possible to pug them. I do that every week before I run with my guild on Tuesday & Thursday. Even beginners can pug Escort, VG, Gorse, Mursaat Overseer and Samarog. For all of them there are many low LI groups besides the 200+ + Deimos KP bs groups.

There’s also that one hint: If you lack some of the required LIs, whisper to the commander that you are able to carry your own weight with some LI less. Some of my friends are doing it every week. They have been rejected rarely.

You really aren’t great at grasping the point. But to be fair, I suspect it’s convenient for you to play it that way. I see that I’m wasting time with you tho…

Yeah, and in the end it’s not as painful as you want to present here.

Of course… after all, you clearly seem to dislike raids and have trouble reliably getting into raid groups…

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

And the reason Raiders want it to stay that way is because most of them do not really want for the majority of players to be able to do them.

I will flat out disagree with this. I would say most raiders want to stay the way that it is, because they want the prestige that comes with completing it. Prestige comes from being able to accomplish things that other are not, nothing malicious in it.

That’s the same. They want for the prestige to be available to as small number of people as possible, to increase it’s value. At the same time they know that actual skill requirements are not that high (because, seriously, if they were high that a lot of those raiders would scream bloody murder after realizing they don’t actually qualify). The limiting factor is the learning process (and, in other games, gear, but fortunately this factor is way less important in gw2). Thus, majority of raiders would never want for any mechanics to be introduced that would make that learning process easier/less painful for others.
You managed to get through the hazing process on your own? Good, now you’re part of the club. You got in through training runs some part of community organized? Also good, because we let you in. You think that some additional mechanics might make it more fun and help with learning? Heaven forbid, that’s a heresy.

Fatalyz.7168:

And for players that can’t learn in the current environment, it wasn’t meant for them anyway, because what about “Challenging Group Content” would attract someone who isn’t up to a challenge?

About “challenging Group Content”? Maybe nothing, but that’s not all that is present in raids, is it. Also, challenge is relative.
Besides, challenge may make you attempt raids, but it won’t keep you there. For everyone raiding consistently challenge is pretty much long gone. So, it’s obvious there are other, much more important factors that keep people playing them. For some, those may be the only important factors, even.

Fatalyz.7168:

It also doesn’t matter if everyone learns differently, this content was designed with a specific subset of players in mind, not as a one size fits all, or a find your challenge level.

No, there are several components to that content that each have been designed with a specific subset of players in mind. Unfortunately, those are not the same subsets.
And that’s why we keep returning to these topics over and over again.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

Astralporing.1957:

And the reason Raiders want it to stay that way is because most of them do not really want for the majority of players to be able to do them.

I will flat out disagree with this. I would say most raiders want to stay the way that it is, because they want the prestige that comes with completing it. Prestige comes from being able to accomplish things that other are not, nothing malicious in it.

That’s the same. They want for the prestige to be available to as small number of people as possible, to increase it’s value. At the same time they know that actual skill requirements are not that high (because, seriously, if they were high that a lot of those raiders would scream bloody murder after realizing they don’t actually qualify). The limiting factor is the learning process (and, in other games, gear, but fortunately this factor is way less important in gw2). Thus, majority of raiders would never want for any mechanics to be introduced that would make that learning process easier/less painful for others.
You managed to get through the hazing process on your own? Good, now you’re part of the club. You got in through training runs some part of community organized? Also good, because we let you in. You think that some additional mechanics might make it more fun and help with learning? Heaven forbid, that’s a heresy.

No need to introduce new mechanics or methods of learning, again this content is meant to appeal to a specific subset of people, the fact that other people are interested in it as well, speaks to it’s success.

Fatalyz.7168:

And for players that can’t learn in the current environment, it wasn’t meant for them anyway, because what about “Challenging Group Content” would attract someone who isn’t up to a challenge?

Astralporing.1957:

About “challenging Group Content”? Maybe nothing, but that’s not all that is present in raids, is it. Also, challenge is relative.
Besides, challenge may make you attempt raids, but it won’t keep you there. For everyone raiding consistently challenge is pretty much long gone. So, it’s obvious there are other, much more important factors that keep people playing them. For some, those may be the only important factors, even.

Yes challenge is subjective, however in this instance Anet told us what challenging is in their game, and even more so that it was Challenging Group Content.

It’s not about whether they find it challenging, it’s about whether they find the challenge presented fun, and so far, the target audience for Raids has.

Fatalyz.7168:

It also doesn’t matter if everyone learns differently, this content was designed with a specific subset of players in mind, not as a one size fits all, or a find your challenge level.

Astralporing.1957:

No, there are several components to that content that each have been designed with a specific subset of players in mind. Unfortunately, those are not the same subsets.

There was only one component to that content that was designed for a specific subset of players, players who wanted Challenging Group Content. Go back and listen to the reveal trailers. The fact that others want things that can be obtained from it, means that they are more likely to give it a try than they may have before. They may end up liking it, and they may not. Just because they don’t like it and can not get the reward that they want, is not reason to justify a change, unless it is a large enough base to hurt your bottom line, and I don’t think that they are there yet.

Edit: formatting.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I guess you can argue it to a point, but I would reply 2 things to you here:

1) I don’t see you propose anything better.

Do I/we have to? Is there a rule saying there have to be some most important factors?

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

2) Success in life, as well as in raid, is mainly going to be a matter of efforts. It is pretty rare to see people invest tons of time and energy into something they do not enjoy. The motivation for the carrot needs to be pretty strong to overcome this. If you do not invest time in something, no matter how talented you are, you won’t get any results.

And of course, it need to be possible for you to be were it matters when it matters. Of course you can tell your boss to put his job were the sun doesn’t shine because you are so willing to do raid every Monday night with a group you met, but most of us won’t cross that line for a leisure. And most group will also ask for a specific time commitment to accept you… bugger…
Sure, you can pug as a newby and organize practice groups yadayada. But, in all honesty, are you going to be willing to spend so much random time for something that isn’t your cup of tea to begin with (with the likely result of such groups on top of it)? And do you think pugging like that will help you gain positive experience that will improve your disposition toward that content? Me neither.

If you enjoy the content and can commit to a group schedule, skill and willingness will more than likely go up and the success you will ripe will reinforce everything. And so on and so forth.

Nobody needs to play raids. It’s a game. Raids are challenging group content for the target audience. It’s not content for the audience that doesn’t want to have a challenge in the game.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I think I was not clear, so i’ll try and make it clearer…

Outside of the game lies a world that is made of obligations that indeed ask you to play along other humans in a structured fashion (my job ask me to help other humans btw and I like doing that). However, in a time and space of leisure, I might be less willing to compromise is the point I think you are missing (or just do not care grasping)…

Of course if for you the only variable in the equation is willingness to play, and that it is not subject to taste and time, it would make sense to view the wold the way you do… but as explained above, I do not agree with you and nor would my RL clients…

The thing is, people will do group content without too much fuss. It is structured and organized content that is the problem for them.

Then they just don’t play it and go on with their stuff. Is it so hard to relinquish legendary armor which isn’t giving better stats? I mean, if you don’t want to invest time and effort, just don’t do it. You can play any other content without having disadvantages. Hell, it’s even faster to exchange armor pieces than changing stats on the leggy armor plus putting in the right runes again.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Just take a look at PVP or wvw… or PVE… everything in this game actually. If what you say is true, 80+% of ANET customers should take a hike and leave the game to the few PVE and wvw raiders as well as PVP pro league players. kitten you PVP yolo players, and wvw roamers or zergers. kitten you typical PVE player… Can ANET confirm that GW2 is not for us plz? I mean, I don’t want to be a burden to your real players…

Thank you.

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

You really aren’t great at grasping the point. But to be fair, I suspect it’s convenient for you to play it that way. I see that I’m wasting time with you tho…

Of course… after all, you clearly seem to dislike raids and have trouble reliably getting into raid groups…

Yeah, I really don’t see your problem with raids here since every game mode has its right to exist.

You want a leggy armor for WvW? I can understand it but then stop coming into the raid forum blaming the raiding community etc. Get your WvW buddies together and make threads in the WvW forums & reddit. Make some big noise there, it would help much more!

The assumption that infantile mode raids is a gateway to the current easy mode raids is a flawed premise. The same people who start in infantile mode and would Pl matriculate upwards are the same people who would have been able to start with our current easy mode raids without the infantile. The people for whom our current raids are too hard or too socially grueling for will never progress upwards regardless of how many graduated steps you give them.

NikeEU.7690:

The people for whom our current raids are too hard or too socially grueling for will never progress upwards regardless of how many graduated steps you give them.

Because… you said so? Cuz, you know, in other games that system works just fine.

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

The people for whom our current raids are too hard or too socially grueling for will never progress upwards regardless of how many graduated steps you give them.

Because… you said so? Cuz, you know, in other games that system works just fine.

In other games it doesn’t work well. People who do the ultra easy mode stick with it and don’t progress.

See how anecdotal evidence works? You say a I say b and we reach a place we’re it doesn’t matter what either of us say and we have to defend our ideas on their own merits instead of saying “it works/doesn’t work in other games.”

NikeEU.7690:

In other games it doesn’t work well. People who do the ultra easy mode stick with it and don’t progress.

See how anecdotal evidence works?

That’s not anecdotal evidence, that’s a factually untrue claim. There are people that advance that way. You can at best argue about how many of those exist.

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Didn’t you know that when your favorite restaurant adds one “side” item to the menu that you don’t like, for some reason your favorite meal tastes worse? (just a joke guys :P)

ButterPeanut.9746:

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Didn’t you know that when your favorite restaurant adds one “side” item to the menu that you don’t like, for some reason your favorite meal tastes worse? (just a joke guys :P)

No, i take offence in what you said :P

ButterPeanut.9746:

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Didn’t you know that when your favorite restaurant adds one “side” item to the menu that you don’t like, for some reason your favorite meal tastes worse? (just a joke guys :P)

Try adding pork chops to a restaurant with kosher food and see how well it will end.