Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Ask youself, if legendary armor were available through other means than raids, would you still want to raid?

I’ve been told time and time again that legendary armor cannot be made available through other means, because this would significantly decrease raid population. In fact, some of the people that argue against me about raids and their accessibility said so about themselves. Does that mean they also have no right to speak up about raids and their balance (unlike Blaeys, who specifically is not interested in rewards at all)?

I have never seen that argument made. Not saying there won’t be some who will use it but it is one of the weaker arguments (I’d not even count it as an argument). Sure, those individuals should have no impact on balance disscussions.

Now with a straight face tell me that rewards are an equal issue on both sides? If I’d have to wager I’d say there is a way higher amount of people with reward envy from the non raiding crowd at the moment than people who would willingly have content kept away from others. It’s not about who is right, it’s about just being honest and pinpointing the issue instead of making up excuses.

I never said people who want legendary armor via different means than raids are wrong by the way, I’m just opposed dumbing down content due to reasons not related to said content.

I for one would love to see multiple ways of legendary armor introduced into the game. For example I’ve always been vocal about spvp and wvw needing more love. Then again, I play almost all game modes.

No problem with legendary armor in other game modes. Just as soon as I can get the pvp legendary backpack in raids I’ll be happy with the trade off.

NikeEU.7690:

No problem with legendary armor in other game modes. Just as soon as I can get the pvp legendary backpack in raids I’ll be happy with the trade off.

You can have a legendary back item in fractal instead of PVP if that game mode is not your cup of tea. At least you have an option regarding game mode for that legendary slot.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

NikeEU.7690:

No problem with legendary armor in other game modes. Just as soon as I can get the pvp legendary backpack in raids I’ll be happy with the trade off.

You can have a legendary back item in fractal instead of PVP if that game mode is not your cup of tea. At least you have an option regarding game mode for that legendary slot.

The PvP backpack is way more beautiful than the fractal backpack I already have.

That’s my opinion.

I don’t want the fractal backpack I hate fractals I want the exact rewards I want in the exact game mode I want. How dare you try to tell others how to enjoy the game.

Cyninja.2954:

Now with a straight face tell me that rewards are an equal issue on both sides? If I’d have to wager I’d say there is a way higher amount of people with reward envy from the non raiding crowd at the moment than people who would willingly have content kept away from others.

Sure. There’s a lot more non-raiders than raiders, after all.

Cyninja.2954:

It’s not about who is right, it’s about just being honest and pinpointing the issue instead of making up excuses.

And i have been clear (i think) that one of my main drives is about making legendary armor available throughout less exclusive avenues.

Cyninja.2954:

I for one would love to see multiple ways of legendary armor introduced into the game. For example I’ve always been vocal about spvp and wvw needing more love.

That would be multiple acquisition modes for this legendary armor, as the devs intend for it to remain the only one for the time being.
Which (multiple acquisition options, not having only one legendary choice) is something i am completely fine with.

NikeEU.7690:

No problem with legendary armor in other game modes. Just as soon as I can get the pvp legendary backpack in raids I’ll be happy with the trade off.

Then ask the devs about it. I’ll definitely not be trying to tell you you can’t get it that way because “purity of purpose” or other stuff.
As long as you try to block other, similar suggestions from others, you are far less likely to see your own implemented.

By acting the way you do, you act against your own interest. That is, if you really want what you said you do.

Vinceman.4572:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

NikeEU.7690:

No problem with legendary armor in other game modes. Just as soon as I can get the pvp legendary backpack in raids I’ll be happy with the trade off.

You can have a legendary back item in fractal instead of PVP if that game mode is not your cup of tea. At least you have an option regarding game mode for that legendary slot.

The PvP backpack is way more beautiful than the fractal backpack I already have.

---

That’s my opinion.

I have both backpacks, and I agree about aesthetics, but I argue accessibility for an item type, not a skin.

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t want the fractal backpack I hate fractals I want the exact rewards I want in the exact game mode I want. How dare you try to tell others how to enjoy the game.

I’m not trying to tell you anything save that in the case of a legendary back item you have an option. You can’t say the same about the leg armor.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t want the fractal backpack I hate fractals I want the exact rewards I want in the exact game mode I want. How dare you try to tell others how to enjoy the game.

I’m not trying to tell you anything save that in the case of a legendary back item you have an option. You can’t say the same about the leg armor.

Especially since both fractal and pvp backpack are much easier to get than legendary armor. Especially now, when getting the tier advancement achievements is just a case of playing enough times, and you don’t need to keep a positive win to loss ratio or aim for winning streaks.
I’d really love the raid armor collection to be of similar difficulty. I’d have had it completed long ago.

Astralporing.1957:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t want the fractal backpack I hate fractals I want the exact rewards I want in the exact game mode I want. How dare you try to tell others how to enjoy the game.

I’m not trying to tell you anything save that in the case of a legendary back item you have an option. You can’t say the same about the leg armor.

Especially since both fractal and pvp backpack are much easier to get than legendary armor. Especially now, when getting the tier advancement achievements is just a case of playing enough times, and you don’t need to keep a positive win to loss ratio or aim for winning streaks.
I’d really love the raid armor collection to be of similar difficulty. I’d have had it completed long ago.

I personally have nothing against the level of difficulty. It is legitimate to have harder content in a game.

However, the reward type is atrociously placed considering it’s the only option.

PVP players had a right to complain about the Ascension being too accessible, and they had a WAY stronger argumentation than raiders do regarding their badge of honor/carrot. Yet, a compromise was managed.

IMHO, it is a mistake to try and manipulate the population where you want using a reward rather than making the game itself appealing to that population.

Ask pvp players how they enjoyed being drowned with players who had no clue how to play conquest pvp because they wanted the carrot. How is pvp today? ESL is gone you say? Oups….

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ask pvp players how they enjoyed being drowned with players who had no clue how to play conquest pvp because they wanted the carrot. How is pvp today? ESL is gone you say? Oups….

Actually, there’s a difference. PvPers thought they’d be better off without PvE players mucking around in their backyard. The raiders on the other hand seem to think that there’s not enough “true raiders” to keep the mode running, so they need to get more people in through using rewards.
PvP people were mostly proved wrong, but raiders may actually be right – it’s entirely possible that there’s not enough players truly interested in that kind of content and it’s being sustained only through reward structure.
Of course, if that’s right, then the existence of that gamemode should be in question.

Astralporing.1957:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ask pvp players how they enjoyed being drowned with players who had no clue how to play conquest pvp because they wanted the carrot. How is pvp today? ESL is gone you say? Oups….

Actually, there’s a difference. PvPers thought they’d be better off without PvE players mucking around in their backyard. The raiders on the other hand seem to think that there’s not enough “true raiders” to keep the mode running, so they need to get more people in through using rewards.
PvP people were mostly proved wrong, but raiders may actually be right – it’s entirely possible that there’s not enough players truly interested in that kind of content and it’s being sustained only through reward structure.
Of course, if that’s right, then the existence of that gamemode should be in question.

Actually not true.

I’d wager most of the people who raid do it for the content, the rewards being there are a nice perk.

Much like you don’t just casually PvE for the Story, you do it for the rewards as well.

But hey let’s continue using faulty analogies to push our own agenda’s okay ?

TexZero.7910:

But hey let’s continue using faulty analogies to push our own agenda’s okay ?

I’m just using one of the arguments that are most commonly brought up by raiders (not you, actually, but you are an exception here, not the rule). The argument being that if the rewards will be available through other means, it might significantly hurt raid population, due to people going for those rewards elsewhere.

So, you are saying that this argument is bunk, and i can safely ignore it next time someone will bring it up?

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

But hey let’s continue using faulty analogies to push our own agenda’s okay ?

I’m just using one of the arguments that are most commonly brought up by raiders (not you, actually, but you are an exception here, not the rule). The argument being that if the rewards will be available through other means, it might significantly hurt raid population, due to people going for those rewards elsewhere.

So, you are saying that this argument is bunk, and i can safely ignore it next time someone will bring it up?

It’s my opinion that the argument itself doesn’t hold water. That doesn’t mean the claim isn’t based around some form of validity. What needs to be said for the entire statement to be valid is that all modes need a form of rewards unique to them to attract interest and gather a substantive community. Something which we already have.
What also needs to be understood, and where Anet goofed here is that the rewards across all modes of play need to be equivalent. Seeing as there is no Legendary Armor elsewhere in the game via an upper end reward this is a problem. If PvP or WvW somehow had a meaningful way of determining how to reward those players then you might see it eventually go to those modes of play. However, that’s unlikely to occur any time in the near future as both those modes of play were built around minimal rewards and as such would likely need a large scale overhaul before you see them go to those modes.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

But hey let’s continue using faulty analogies to push our own agenda’s okay ?

I’m just using one of the arguments that are most commonly brought up by raiders (not you, actually, but you are an exception here, not the rule). The argument being that if the rewards will be available through other means, it might significantly hurt raid population, due to people going for those rewards elsewhere.

So, you are saying that this argument is bunk, and i can safely ignore it next time someone will bring it up?

You keep repeating this but I honestly have not seen this argument made or at least not made very often. The most arguments revolve around raid difficulty, not rewards.

The most one could argue is that a big part of the raiding crowd is against senseless dumbing down of content to appease people who want easier access to rewards, but asking for a status quo to remain is not the same as denying others rewards. Most raiders I’d wager wouldn’t care for other means to get legendary armor since it would make the process of gaining additional legendary armor more interesting.

So I have to disagree that this argument is being brought up commonly by raiders. You are the only one I’ve been seeing bringing this topic up as an argument from raiders.

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

Blaeys.3102:

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

And they could have used those challenge mote resources, to provide better polished encounters. Better polished encounters is better for the game mode as a singular challenge level.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

And they could have used those challenge mote resources, to provide better polished encounters. Better polished encounters is better for the game mode as a singular challenge level.

Except, as long as they have to be worried about balancing encounters to account for a greater range of skill levels in a single mode (which was obviously their intent in wing 4), the same issue exists as in your example.

Using those resources on story motes (or a straight up story mode) gives them greater leeway in providing challenging content throughout a raid – meaning greater purity of purpose and a true challenging and polished raiding experience for those wanting it. Imo, they cannot provide a proper raid with the model they have now – and their answer in wing 4 (challenge motes) didn’t really work.

Why not use those resources on something people are actually asking for?

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

And they could have used those challenge mote resources, to provide better polished encounters. Better polished encounters is better for the game mode as a singular challenge level.

Except, as long as they have to be worried about balancing encounters to account for a greater range of skill levels in a single mode (which was obviously their intent in wing 4), the same issue exists as in your example.

Using those resources on story motes (or a straight up story mode) gives them greater leeway in providing challenging content throughout a raid – meaning greater purity of purpose and a true challenging and polished raiding experience for those wanting it. Imo, they cannot provide a proper raid with the model they have now – and their answer in wing 4 (challenge motes) didn’t really work.

Why not use those resources on something people are actually asking for?

How much dummbed down, boring should the content be to be considered easy?

As its stands it can be completed by 10 pugs using turrets enginer:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/69hjyp/10_turret_engineer_cairn_kill_with_pugs/

There is never easy enough so you would create a content that is boring, dont have any epic feeling, that would still be hard for some people, and damaged the best current content of GW2. Congratulations you wasted resource to damage the game instead of focusing resources on places that need it.

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

No one is talking about dumbing down anything. People are proposing the creation of an alternative way to experience the content – one that not only wouldn’t affect the harder mode, but would give the developers free licence to make the actual challenging raids even more challenging.

And, again, I think that could be accomplished with little impact on developmental resources by transitioning from challenge to story motes (and then making the main experience the considerably harder one).

And they could have used those challenge mote resources, to provide better polished encounters. Better polished encounters is better for the game mode as a singular challenge level.

Except, as long as they have to be worried about balancing encounters to account for a greater range of skill levels in a single mode (which was obviously their intent in wing 4), the same issue exists as in your example.

I don’t think that they are worried about catering to a wide skill level. I think that they are trying to provide a set experience, for each boss. Yes that means that some will be easier than others, while others are more difficult, I don’t see a problem with this.

Blaeys.3102:

Using those resources on story motes (or a straight up story mode) gives them greater leeway in providing challenging content throughout a raid – meaning greater purity of purpose and a true challenging and polished raiding experience for those wanting it. Imo, they cannot provide a proper raid with the model they have now – and their answer in wing 4 (challenge motes) didn’t really work.

Why not use those resources on something people are actually asking for?

I’m not sure what you mean by “greater purity of purpose”. Raids already are the most challenging content in the game. The only reason that challenge motes didn’t work, imo, is because there is no repeatable reward for completing them (ie – Nightmare CM has increased repeatable rewards), it’s the exact same reward as for completing the normal challenge. If anything, had they done that, they would have been a success.

For the last question – because this isn’t and should not become a raid-centric game, or a game that focuses it’s primary story telling through raids.

Edit: For the last question, a more realistic answer – Because the devs do not want to support it (this is my opinion, based on their stance thus far and their response that raids should remain the most difficult content in the game). Sometimes as a developer you have to decide what you want to support, and run with it.

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Ask youself, if legendary armor were available through other means than raids, would you still want to raid?

I’ve been told time and time again that legendary armor cannot be made available through other means, because this would significantly decrease raid population. In fact, some of the people that argue against me about raids and their accessibility said so about themselves. Does that mean they also have no right to speak up about raids and their balance (unlike Blaeys, who specifically is not interested in rewards at all)?

I have never seen that argument made. Not saying there won’t be some who will use it but it is one of the weaker arguments (I’d not even count it as an argument). Sure, those individuals should have no impact on balance disscussions.

Now with a straight face tell me that rewards are an equal issue on both sides? If I’d have to wager I’d say there is a way higher amount of people with reward envy from the non raiding crowd at the moment than people who would willingly have content kept away from others. It’s not about who is right, it’s about just being honest and pinpointing the issue instead of making up excuses.

I never said people who want legendary armor via different means than raids are wrong by the way, I’m just opposed dumbing down content due to reasons not related to said content.

I for one would love to see multiple ways of legendary armor introduced into the game. For example I’ve always been vocal about spvp and wvw needing more love. Then again, I play almost all game modes.

to be honest SPVP doesnt need legendaries, you dont even need gear in SPVP, it would solely be there as a carrot for people who play multiple modes. I’m not saying it shouldnt exist, but there is no logical reason that someone who wants legendary utility only plays spvp. If they play multiple modes, then they can just play the other mode.

If they do add multiple methods, it should be the last method to achieve it, spvp really just needs to offer gold and mats to be worthwhile for cross pve/pvp players.

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

actually 1v2-5 , and a roaming duo face to face with 20 man zerg is less challenging than a raid.
facing top spvp players and winning? thats might be harder, but its pretty difficult to determine.
What you are doing is like comparing hitting 100 three pointers in a row with beating some good basketball players, if you are the same height build health and have the same skills.
To be honest most people are more likely to beat the good basketball players.

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

actually 1v2-5 , and a roaming duo face to face with 20 man zerg is less challenging than a raid.
facing top spvp players and winning? thats might be harder, but its pretty difficult to determine.
What you are doing is like comparing hitting 100 three pointers in a row with beating some good basketball players, if you are the same height build health and have the same skills.
To be honest most people are more likely to beat the good basketball players.

Interesting take.

I would think that learning a scripted fight well enough to perform one’s specific role would be less difficult than the PvP comparison. I’ve won 1 v 5 in WvW, but have no illusions that I could take ten or more at once. And I know those five werent top tier players.

I would imagine that my TTL vs 5 to 10 top tier players in a coordinated team, would be measured in very few seconds. I expect that would be the case for even pretty skilled players experienced and successful in the game mode.

I dont expect that a raid team, experienced and successful in the game mode, experiencing a common, expected, every day encounter in a raid, while doing everything right, would die in seconds.

In WvW, or PvP, while doing everything right, the outcome is all but a foregone conclusion…you lose.

In any form of scripted encounter, doing everything right also generates a foregone conclusion…you win.

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

actually 1v2-5 , and a roaming duo face to face with 20 man zerg is less challenging than a raid.
facing top spvp players and winning? thats might be harder, but its pretty difficult to determine.
What you are doing is like comparing hitting 100 three pointers in a row with beating some good basketball players, if you are the same height build health and have the same skills.
To be honest most people are more likely to beat the good basketball players.

Interesting take.

I would think that learning a scripted fight well enough to perform one’s specific role would be less difficult than the PvP comparison. I’ve won 1 v 5 in WvW, but have no illusions that I could take ten or more at once. And I know those five werent top tier players.

I would imagine that my TTL vs 5 to 10 top tier players in a coordinated team, would be measured in very few seconds. I expect that would be the case for even pretty skilled players experienced and successful in the game mode.

I dont expect that a raid team, experienced and successful in the game mode, experiencing a common, expected, every day encounter in a raid, while doing everything right, would die in seconds.

In WvW, or PvP, while doing everything right, the outcome is all but a foregone conclusion…you lose.

In any form of scripted encounter, doing everything right also generates a foregone conclusion…you win.

but you are comparing people who have already achieved mastery to people who have never tried.

who is better, an nba player or concert pianist?
the music is presrcipted, doing everything right = win

i dont think the top pvp players have put in more time effort, or training than the top PVE players.
I dont think it would be any easier for a top pvp player team who never set foot in PVE to beat raids than it would be for a top pve player who never set foot in pvp to beat an opposing team.

they simply value different things.

also, your PVP goals generally represent smaller % of the population, for your comparison youd have to be talking about the raiders with the best times in a leaderboard, not just those that could beat the raid.
to which id say yeah i feel that its not going to be any easier to achieve one or the other.

regardless an spvp primary player has absolutely no need of a legendary item anyhow so its kinda moot point.

WvW should have legendaries, but unfortunately it would probably be just about grinding doors, not the truely spectacular things one might pull off in WvW.

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

TexZero.7910:

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

Unless the legendary armor is a major reason why people even raid (which, if i remember correctly, you strongly disagreed with not so long ago), making it available in other modes would not diminish raids at all.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

Unless the legendary armor is a major reason why people even raid (which, if i remember correctly, you strongly disagreed with not so long ago), making it available in other modes would not diminish raids at all.

Didn’t say making it available in other modes would.

I said there’s no reason to diminish the current quality of raids for people throwing a tantrum because they refuse to use the only available option to get the reward they want.

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

I did not suggest diminishing an existing mode’s content.

Ashen.2907:

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

I did not suggest diminishing an existing mode’s content.

I know, i’m reiterating a point because it’s something others not you have said they want to see done. Case in point this snippit

Thus, i’ll be asking for alternate acquisition methods till i’m heard, first 4 wings of raids get nerfed (either directly, or indirectly due to power creep), or i’ll stop playing.

We should never be asking for the modes play to be diminished for the sake of throwing a tantrum because can’t get shiny.

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

I did not suggest diminishing an existing mode’s content.

I know, i’m reiterating a point because it’s something others not you have said they want to see done. Case in point this snippit

Thus, i’ll be asking for alternate acquisition methods till i’m heard, first 4 wings of raids get nerfed (either directly, or indirectly due to power creep), or i’ll stop playing.

We should never be asking for the modes play to be diminished for the sake of throwing a tantrum because can’t get shiny.

I’m not really asking for the raids to get nerfed (though i admit it wouldn’t make me sad). I just said, that this is one of the situations when i might stop complaining about legendary armor (because the situation would get solved for me).

If you haven’t noticed, the things i ask for are either an alternate acquisition method, an easy mode (with rewards and legendary armor collection unlocks), or a mix (easy mode without leg armor, but also an alternate acquisition mode). Neither of which diminishes current raid content. It’s just that if raids became easier due to either devs’ direct actions, or as a result of power creep, that would be a solution i could live with too.

I started raiding in the beginning of year. I too was afraid to tackle such challenging content. Boy was I wrong. Once I learned the mechanics for each boss I realized how insanely easy it is. Watch the videos on youtube. Use the gear and comp that is recommended and you should have no troubles. I personally feel the armor should stay in that content, for the simple reason to keep it relevant when the new xpac arrives. I started late in raiding and I acquired the armor and it feels great that accomplished something this time last year I didn’t care for.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

TexZero.7910:

Ashen.2907:

Is going 1 v 2, 3, 4, or 5 facing top tier sPvP players, or being a member of a roaming duo come face to face with a zerg of 20 less challenging than raids?

Do those modes currently have the rewards you’re looking for ?

Also, that horse has been beat to death. Most sane people don’t care if those modes eventually get their own Legendaries. That however does not require diminishing an existing modes content to satisfy those who refuse to utilize the current path to Legendary Armor.

I did not suggest diminishing an existing mode’s content.

I know, i’m reiterating a point because it’s something others not you have said they want to see done. Case in point this snippit

Thus, i’ll be asking for alternate acquisition methods till i’m heard, first 4 wings of raids get nerfed (either directly, or indirectly due to power creep), or i’ll stop playing.

We should never be asking for the modes play to be diminished for the sake of throwing a tantrum because can’t get shiny.

I’m not really asking for the raids to get nerfed (though i admit it wouldn’t make me sad). I just said, that this is one of the situations when i might stop complaining about legendary armor (because the situation would get solved for me).

If you haven’t noticed, the things i ask for are either an alternate acquisition method, an easy mode (with rewards and legendary armor collection unlocks), or a mix (easy mode without leg armor, but also an alternate acquisition mode). Neither of which diminishes current raid content. It’s just that if raids became easier due to either devs’ direct actions, or as a result of power creep, that would be a solution i could live with too.

That’s your claim that you feel an easy mode wouldn’t diminish raid content. Personally i don’t buy it. I’ve seen first hand what can happen when you have to design and test variable levels of content. Ultimately it drags down the quality and potential complexity. Whether or not Anet is able to find a decent solution or not is also up in the air.

Also, is it really an alternative means of acquisition if you are still raiding ?

I’m all for there being alternative ways of acquiring legendary armor, but another mode easy or otherwise isn’t what should happen. Other modes of play need to be brought to parity with End Game PvE content. WvW and PvP should each have their own Legendary Armor. Just don’t go crying when or if WvW requires Mithril Ranks to craft it or PvP requires you to place in the top 100-500.

TexZero.7910:

That’s your claim that you feel an easy mode wouldn’t diminish raid content.

Current Raid content. It’s already done. Doing easy mode for it is not going to diminish it.

TexZero.7910:

Also, is it really an alternative means of acquisition if you are still raiding ?

Not sure i understand you here, but you seem to misunderstood what i tried to say… you might want to read it again.

TexZero.7910:

I’m all for there being alternative ways of acquiring legendary armor, but another mode easy or otherwise isn’t what should happen. Other modes of play need to be brought to parity with End Game PvE content. WvW and PvP should each have their own Legendary Armor. Just don’t go crying when or if WvW requires Mithril Ranks to craft it or PvP requires you to place in the top 100-500.

You don’t need to be able to lowman raids or be a qT member to get legendary armor. You don’t need to sit in there for years, You don’t even need to be highly skilled. You just need to like the content enough to sit through the uncomfortable learning phase, and have 9 friends that will like it as much as you do. So i have no idea why do you think that the requirement examples you gave for WvW and sPvP are even comparable.

Unless of course you think that the number of raiders able to get that armor are around that number (100-500) only.
In which case the mode has a serious population problem.

Current raid modes are easy mode and have rewards so there you go /thread ?

TexZero.7910:

That’s your claim that you feel an easy mode wouldn’t diminish raid content. Personally i don’t buy it. I’ve seen first hand what can happen when you have to design and test variable levels of content. Ultimately it drags down the quality and potential complexity. Whether or not Anet is able to find a decent solution or not is also up in the air.

I disagree with your logic here. First, I have also seen what other games have done first hand and argue that, done correctly, the system works. However, we can argue this one until the end of time – it is extremely subjective with anecdotal evidence to support both sides of an argument.

Second, and more telling, is that ArenaNet has already done this – with the challenge motes in BotP. The mechanic to implement a story or more accessible mode is already in the game – a mechanic that is very non-intrusive and likely easy to implement.

I want hard complex fights as much as anyone, but it isnt multiple modes that stop that from happening. In my opinion, a much bigger barrier is how they have to target raids. As long as they choose to stick to a single mode, they will continually need to compromise – even if just a little – in the name of “getting new people into raids” – especially as carrot factor of legendary armor ages and diminishes. It’s the nature of the game.

Multiple modes – with a true accessible story mode – remove that concern from the development table. It frees them up to make the more complex fights, not the other way around.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

That’s your claim that you feel an easy mode wouldn’t diminish raid content. Personally i don’t buy it. I’ve seen first hand what can happen when you have to design and test variable levels of content. Ultimately it drags down the quality and potential complexity. Whether or not Anet is able to find a decent solution or not is also up in the air.

I disagree with your logic here. First, I have also seen what other games have done first hand and argue that, done correctly, the system works. However, we can argue this one until the end of time – it is extremely subjective with anecdotal evidence to support both sides of an argument.

True, yet you are already quantifying your respons which shows that you are well aware that the solution of adding multiple difficulties has not gone over well in other MMOs.

Which in turn means the effort to implement it in a proper way is more than just some easy number changes here and there running against the argument it can be done easily.

My guess is they will stick to having challenge motes and just keep the fights tuned down slightly. How well this works out and how the addition of more raid wings affects longevity only time will tell. I’m just happy the entire disscussion has died down a bit with some people deciding that they dislike the legendary armor look (and thus not caring), and others giving raids a try. In both cases it’s less people theorycrafting in circles on the forum.

Cyninja.2954:

True, yet you are already quantifying your respons which shows that you are well aware that the solution of adding multiple difficulties has not gone over well in other MMOs.

Which in turn means the effort to implement it in a proper way is more than just some easy number changes here and there running against the argument it can be done easily.

My guess is they will stick to having challenge motes and just keep the fights tuned down slightly. How well this works out and how the addition of more raid wings affects longevity only time will tell. I’m just happy the entire disscussion has died down a bit with some people deciding that they dislike the legendary armor look (and thus not caring), and others giving raids a try. In both cases it’s less people theorycrafting in circles on the forum.

The conversation has slowed because there is currently no new raid – and legendary armor has turned into a bit of a logistical and perception nightmare for them – but I do feel confident the issue of accessibility to the content and story remains as big an issue for people as ever.

I qualified my statement because some people like to point at multiple modes in other games as a bad thing – something that corrupted them, when I believe it is primarily because they feel raids should be the sole domain of the hardcore player. An undeniable fact is that many games continue to use the model because it does appeal to wide portions of their playerbase.

It is also worth noting that even before multiple modes were implemented, pretty much all of these games had a built in means to provide greater access to the content that GW2 will never have – specifically level and gear treadmills. Those treadmills allowed developers to balance raids for the extreme hardcore player at first, with the understanding they would become more and more accessible as time went on – to the point where pretty much every player would be able to experience them.

So it was always a consideration in the design of raids in those games.

I think most agree that these treadmills do not – and NEVER SHOULD – exist in GW2. That means that gradually increasing accessibility doesn’t exist here in any real form. As a result, raids are being designed with a broader swath of players in mind from day one. That means two things – one, they will always be watered down more than they should be for hardcore players and two, they will always feel inaccessible to less serious players.

The result of that is what we have now – raids that arent really challenging at all for one group but still feel overly inaccessible to those whose playstyles dont fit a specific mold. In trying to force fit a single difficulty into them, they will end up with something less than it should be.

Multiple modes – especially if implemented through a story mote of some kind – fix many of these issues in my opinion (not saying it is perfect solution – just the best one we probably have).

Blaeys.3102:

I think most agree that these treadmills do not – and NEVER SHOULD – exist in GW2. That means that gradually increasing accessibility doesn’t exist here in any real form. As a result, raids are being designed with a broader swath of players in mind from day one. That means two things – one, they will always be watered down more than they should be for hardcore players and two, they will always feel inaccessible to less serious players.

The result of that is what we have now – raids that arent really challenging at all for one group but still feel overly inaccessible to those whose playstyles dont fit a specific mold. In trying to force fit a single difficulty into them, they will end up with something less than it should be.

Raids were never supposed to be really challenging for the hardcore or accessible to the less than serious players. It is challenging content for casual players.

So would you say that by forcing to stay a single difficulty, that it will never become a primary form of story-telling and end game for this game? I’m not sure what you mean by “something less than it should be”. Because raids are challenging content, which is what they are supposed to be. Not sure how they are less than that because they only offer a single mode.

Blaeys.3102:

Cyninja.2954:

True, yet you are already quantifying your respons which shows that you are well aware that the solution of adding multiple difficulties has not gone over well in other MMOs.

Which in turn means the effort to implement it in a proper way is more than just some easy number changes here and there running against the argument it can be done easily.

My guess is they will stick to having challenge motes and just keep the fights tuned down slightly. How well this works out and how the addition of more raid wings affects longevity only time will tell. I’m just happy the entire disscussion has died down a bit with some people deciding that they dislike the legendary armor look (and thus not caring), and others giving raids a try. In both cases it’s less people theorycrafting in circles on the forum.

The conversation has slowed because there is currently no new raid – and legendary armor has turned into a bit of a logistical and perception nightmare for them – but I do feel confident the issue of accessibility to the content and story remains as big an issue for people as ever.

I qualified my statement because some people like to point at multiple modes in other games as a bad thing – something that corrupted them, when I believe it is primarily because they feel raids should be the sole domain of the hardcore player. An undeniable fact is that many games continue to use the model because it does appeal to wide portions of their playerbase.

It is also worth noting that even before multiple modes were implemented, pretty much all of these games had a built in means to provide greater access to the content that GW2 will never have – specifically level and gear treadmills. Those treadmills allowed developers to balance raids for the extreme hardcore player at first, with the understanding they would become more and more accessible as time went on – to the point where pretty much every player would be able to experience them.

So it was always a consideration in the design of raids in those games.

I think most agree that these treadmills do not – and NEVER SHOULD – exist in GW2. That means that gradually increasing accessibility doesn’t exist here in any real form. As a result, raids are being designed with a broader swath of players in mind from day one. That means two things – one, they will always be watered down more than they should be for hardcore players and two, they will always feel inaccessible to less serious players.

The result of that is what we have now – raids that arent really challenging at all for one group but still feel overly inaccessible to those whose playstyles dont fit a specific mold. In trying to force fit a single difficulty into them, they will end up with something less than it should be.

Multiple modes – especially if implemented through a story mote of some kind – fix many of these issues in my opinion (not saying it is perfect solution – just the best one we probably have).

The best solution we probably have is letting raids as they are now. A lot of people love the raids and dont want it easier or harder, because its not boring and at same time you can do things like the 10 turret enginer pug raid that showed on reddit.
And i’m pretty sure a-net will stick with this solution as its dont involve risk of actually making things a lot of worse.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

That’s your claim that you feel an easy mode wouldn’t diminish raid content. Personally i don’t buy it. I’ve seen first hand what can happen when you have to design and test variable levels of content. Ultimately it drags down the quality and potential complexity. Whether or not Anet is able to find a decent solution or not is also up in the air.

I disagree with your logic here. First, I have also seen what other games have done first hand and argue that, done correctly, the system works. However, we can argue this one until the end of time – it is extremely subjective with anecdotal evidence to support both sides of an argument.

Second, and more telling, is that ArenaNet has already done this – with the challenge motes in BotP. The mechanic to implement a story or more accessible mode is already in the game – a mechanic that is very non-intrusive and likely easy to implement.

I want hard complex fights as much as anyone, but it isnt multiple modes that stop that from happening. In my opinion, a much bigger barrier is how they have to target raids. As long as they choose to stick to a single mode, they will continually need to compromise – even if just a little – in the name of “getting new people into raids” – especially as carrot factor of legendary armor ages and diminishes. It’s the nature of the game.

Multiple modes – with a true accessible story mode – remove that concern from the development table. It frees them up to make the more complex fights, not the other way around.

You say that, and you can call this subjective if you want. I don’t personally care but seeing as i’ve done QA work for MMO’s before, it’s my opinion that multiple modes has an extreme impact on development. Some of the QA work i had to do to test multi-mode raids ended up delaying or extending production time anywhere from 1-2 additional months the estimated project time, and that was only for 2 modes of testing. I can also tell you that while those games where nowhere near as polished as Anet’s, they also had to give up on more challenging mechanics because it wasn’t feasible to design and incorporate them only to remove them again for an easier mode as it didn’t do the easy mode justice to just be a glorified HP sponge.

So how much longer are you willing to delay content in GW2 just so you can have your story when it’s readily available to you online as is ?

TexZero.7910:

So how much longer are you willing to delay content in GW2 just so you can have your story when it’s readily available to you online as is ?

Once again, I think that the idea of motes invalidates the delay argument. I really do not see how developing story motes would be any more time or resource intensive than was put into the challenge motes used in BoTP.

The same concept invalidates the idea that they would somehow compromise the development of the harder mode as well. Put true effort into making a truly challenging raid experience – and only then look at the mechanical and mathematical considerations needed for a story mote (much they way they likely did with the challenge motes).

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

So how much longer are you willing to delay content in GW2 just so you can have your story when it’s readily available to you online as is ?

Once again, I think that the idea of motes invalidates the delay argument. I really do not see how developing story motes would be any more time or resource intensive than was put into the challenge motes used in BoTP.

Ok, let’s look at it like this:

BotP took 9 months from Stronghold of the Faithful, to be released. With that we got 4 normal mode bosses and 4 challenge motes. Logic dictates that had they not spent those resources on those challenge motes, they would have been able to deliver the new raid sooner. If they were to keep developing motes, you either keep your release cycle at 9+ months (I do not think that would be acceptable) or you hire more resources to keep up the cadence (not a good idea, when so many other areas of the game are in need of attention Guild Missions, WvW, etc, and could use those new resources much more.

The other thing to keep in mind, the devs want raids to be a small part of the game, and they want their game mode to be exclusionary. The only real reason to change it would be because it detracts from the final product that they want to deliver.

Will raids in their current implementation push players away? Absolutely, this was intended (not that they want people to quit the game, but that there is an acceptable amount to be expected and only Anet knows what that is).

I just don’t see changing raids to support multi-mode, attracting more players, than what it will push away. And so far there has been nothing presented that disproves that.

Fatalyz.7168:

Ok, let’s look at it like this:

BotP took 9 months from Stronghold of the Faithful, to be released. With that we got 4 normal mode bosses and 4 challenge motes. Logic dictates that had they not spent those resources on those challenge motes, they would have been able to deliver the new raid sooner. If they were to keep developing motes, you either keep your release cycle at 9+ months (I do not think that would be acceptable) or you hire more resources to keep up the cadence (not a good idea, when so many other areas of the game are in need of attention Guild Missions, WvW, etc, and could use those new resources much more.

The other thing to keep in mind, the devs want raids to be a small part of the game, and they want their game mode to be exclusionary. The only real reason to change it would be because it detracts from the final product that they want to deliver.

Will raids in their current implementation push players away? Absolutely, this was intended (not that they want people to quit the game, but that there is an acceptable amount to be expected and only Anet knows what that is).

I just don’t see changing raids to support multi-mode, attracting more players, than what it will push away. And so far there has been nothing presented that disproves that.

Anet may NOW have intention to keep raids as “small side content” but originally:
1. Raids got ONLY legendary set in whole game and probably only PvE one.
2. Raids got most effective and exclusive stats locked exclusively behind them. Yes, that was changed after, but that shows their original intention.
3. Raids got more of HoT best cosmetic rewards outside of gemstore, than sPvP and WvW put together (!).
4. Raids caused major balance tweaks among classes. It’s pretty unlikely for side content to become a reason for such changes, don’t you think?

I’m not going to bring up “4 wings 2 fractals 0 dungeons” topic again, because okay, maybe raid team had astonishingly high performance, and other teams took a yearly vacations, along with company supervisors.

But still, it looks like raids originally was planned as the pinnacle of PvE endgame, and clearly not as secondary or alternative content. Probably now that direction is changed, adjusted or even reversed completely. Or maybe they will stick to it and simply change/expand raids itself. We will see.

Rednik.3809:

I’m not going to bring up “4 wings 2 fractals 0 dungeons” topic again, because okay, maybe raid team had astonishingly high performance, and other teams took a yearly vacations, along with company supervisors.

Again, it’s not 2 fractals…

Since then, the Fractals have seen the addition of two new fractals (Chaos Isles and Nightmare) and numerous quality-of-life changes in order to make them more engaging. Major highlights include the streamlining of Agony infusions, and reworks to the Cliffside, Swampland, Snowblind and Thaumanova Reactor fractals.

- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists

It’s at least 6 fractals because those redesigned fractals are completely reworked mechanic wise (and layout too in some cases). I just don’t understand how you can keep coming with the same mantra when you are factually plain wrong and have been pointed out on the fact that you are wrong.

That’s not counting all the changes to the fractal entrance area, the changes to agony resistance (which likely required coding changes accross the board) and all the other things that got added to fractals with reward revamps, etc.

Raids in this game are insanely easy as it is. I am suprised there are so many people who fail at them. Things like Samarog CM should be the baseline difficulty and not a one time challenge mode if you ask me.

Fatalyz.7168:

Raids were never supposed to be really challenging for the hardcore or accessible to the less than serious players. It is challenging content for casual players.

It wasn’t casual players that asked for challenging content – it was the hardcore crowd. And it’s the hardcore crowd that the raids were meant for, according to dev statements.

So, if they ended up challenging for the casuals, as you claim (which by the way i agree with, that’s what they are), then they significantly missed their design goal.

Fatalyz.7168:

I’m not sure what you mean by “something less than it should be”.

As long as they’ll keep to the current form, they will never be able to become what they were meant to be – challenging for hardcores that asked for them. There may be some single bosses on that level, but only inbetween bosses that are killed within hours of release, and boss events like escort and Trio. They will never be really hard enough to truly satisfy the hardcore crowd, but they also will remain too hard to be liked by the casual players.

And most likely with time (and the more hardcore players’ count diminishing) the new encounters will keep becoming easier and easier on average (you could see the beginning of that in wing 4).

Mel.3064:

Raids in this game are insanely easy as it is. I am suprised there are so many people who fail at them. Things like Samarog CM should be the baseline difficulty and not a one time challenge mode if you ask me.

Things like Samarog CM will never be baseline, and possibly will never appear again as long as we have LFGs demanding 300+ LI for “insanely easy” raid.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

Raids were never supposed to be really challenging for the hardcore or accessible to the less than serious players. It is challenging content for casual players.

It wasn’t casual players that asked for challenging content – it was the hardcore crowd. And it’s the hardcore crowd that the raids were meant for, according to dev statements.

So, if they ended up challenging for the casuals, as you claim (which by the way i agree with, that’s what they are), then they significantly missed their design goal.

Actually, I’m pretty sure it was the crowd that they intended explorable mode dungeons for. And as far as I remember dev statements were that Raids were for those who wanted more challenging content in the game, specifically challenging group content. I would be intrigued if you had a quote specifically stating that they wanted raids for the “hardcore” crowd.

Yes, raids are challenging for casuals, imo. But I’m not sure how they significantly missed their design goal. To me, casual does not mean “bad”. Casual to me, is someone that plays casually with their time. Even then, just playing casually over time, you will, hopefully, get better at playing the game and at playing your class. Raids are supposed to be part of that horizontal progress, imo. Where the horizontal progression is your character not gaining any new abilities, but your skill as a player increasing.

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

I’m not sure what you mean by “something less than it should be”.

As long as they’ll keep to the current form, they will never be able to become what they were meant to be – challenging for hardcores that asked for them. There may be some single bosses on that level, but only inbetween bosses that are killed within hours of release, and boss events like escort and Trio. They will never be really hard enough to truly satisfy the hardcore crowd, but they also will remain too hard to be liked by the casual players.

Who do you refer to as casual players? I consider myself a casual player. My online average has been ~4hrs per day, since headstart. There have been some breaks in that time, also time I’ve been unemployed (for longer and more times than I’d care to admit outloud), and then here lately, where I log in, but I’m running around making dinner, making sure my gf’s kid is doing her homework, etc. But I also don’t find Raids too difficult, probably because I never pugged. I also didn’t join a group that was already clearing without me. I joined a progression group, within the guild I’m in now, and we worked through all of the bosses. A couple of hours, twice a week. Took a few months before we were full clearing consistently. With that, I don’t really think raids were intended to be pugged, at least not efficiently or easily.

Astralporing.1957:

And most likely with time (and the more hardcore players’ count diminishing) the new encounters will keep becoming easier and easier on average (you could see the beginning of that in wing 4).

While true, the hardcore count will diminish, because I don’t think raids were truly designed with what they wanted in mind, but I honestly think it is expected. I’d like to think wing 4 seemed easier, because most of us already had experienced raiding, and experience working as a group.

Rednik.3809:

Mel.3064:

Raids in this game are insanely easy as it is. I am suprised there are so many people who fail at them. Things like Samarog CM should be the baseline difficulty and not a one time challenge mode if you ask me.

Things like Samarog CM will never be baseline, and possibly will never appear again as long as we have LFGs demanding 300+ LI for “insanely easy” raid.

Sadly a lot of people fail the easiest mechanics or do less DPS than NPCs in living story instances. You have to weed out the trash tier players somehow when pugging and starting at the LIs is the best place to start.