Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

The thing is the wells still do more than the shouts for groups of trash. And the shouts are terrible for single targets. You would use 1 shout max with 2 wells for trash pulls. If the shouts had blast finishers they might be a little more favourable.

yeah, but if you have that trait, you can basically chain shouts on groups.
35% reduction per group of 5,

this means 3 shouts on big groups recharges all shouts

so you can use the elite a lot, in large groups.
elite
suffer
you are all weaklings
heal shout
elite again

anyhow, i do think the shouts could be improved on your targeted enemy. While in groups they may be pretty good, alone they are really really weak
your soul is mine

I think you misread the shouts only effect their own cd not the cd of other shouts.

Cyrill Faust.9340:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

The thing is the wells still do more than the shouts for groups of trash. And the shouts are terrible for single targets. You would use 1 shout max with 2 wells for trash pulls. If the shouts had blast finishers they might be a little more favourable.

yeah, but if you have that trait, you can basically chain shouts on groups.
35% reduction per group of 5,

this means 3 shouts on big groups recharges all shouts

so you can use the elite a lot, in large groups.
elite
suffer
you are all weaklings
heal shout
elite again

anyhow, i do think the shouts could be improved on your targeted enemy. While in groups they may be pretty good, alone they are really really weak
your soul is mine

I think you misread the shouts only effect their own cd not the cd of other shouts.

ahhh well that killed my shout hype.
they probably need to be tuned then.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Obtena.7952:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I don’t think we need to be persecuting ANet or whatever, and the class is very fun to play, …

Anyone ever consider that THIS is actually the real goal that Anet wants to achieve?
I get there are deficiencies but if Anet wants the class to be fun, it could be said Necro is successful as a profession. I’m not sure we should be so assuming with what Anet thinks the professions should do or be.

You seem to forget that they have been trying to push esports and play equality, stronghold is their next attempt at getting popularity in the competitive scene, also last I recall they want to address clear dominances in our current proxy with the next set of PvE content as clearly stated by Colin Johanson himself.

You can’t just design something for the sake of fun and not think about the numbers when one of your core objectives is to push Esports, it does not make sense. Yes their esports push is in regards to sPvP and not dungeons but that doesn’t change the fact that they also need to be thinking about the numbers for the sake of their goal as a whole.

If they just designed things for the sake of fun, we wouldn’t soon be facing “balance” adjustments to ice bow and lightning hammer neither would we have a balance team to begin with.

I’m not forgetting that. I think the fact is that if people find a profession deficient in PVP/WvW and they want to compete, then smartly, they will avoid it. There is a difference between playing to win and playing to entertain. If you’re lucky you get both, but I don’t want to get tied up into a “PVE != competitive” argument here. So again, from a PVE perspective, if Necro is a fun class, in a casual-oriented, non-competitive environment, … what’s the problem? That’s a win.

Besides, isn’t the point of the thread about PVE?

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

Why couldn’t they have just made the shouts be blast finishers? What is the harm in giving the necro-reaper some sort of group utility? It’s not like they have any fields that are worth blasting…

Sigil of Demon Summoning needs a rework anyways, so.. yeah make it 10%dmg against chilled… just to be more realistic

Windsagio.1340:

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

There is also a tendency to believe that something is crap because it’s not exactly how a player thinks it should be. People want to play an unselfish class, but demand it be necro. That’s not how game dev works people. If you want non-selfish classes, they exist, play them.

I’m actually a little jealous because of the approach Anet took to making Reaper have 3 themes in the single elite spec. That’s a pretty thoughful approach IMO.

Obtena.7952:

Windsagio.1340:

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

There is also a tendency to believe that something is crap because it’s not exactly how a player thinks it should be. People want to play an unselfish class, but demand it be necro. That’s not how game dev works people. If you want non-selfish classes, they exist, play them.

I’m actually a little jealous because of the approach Anet took to making Reaper have 3 themes in the single elite spec. That’s a pretty thoughful approach IMO.

So basically you are saying that people just should not play necros in dungeons?

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Axelwarrior.9084:

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Ehh, probably going to be pretty high DPS for bosses. under 50% hp you ll be doing pretty large dmg if you take power.

100% crits, high dmg skill with no recast/low recast and 20% dmg boost under 50% hp.
and what they claim will be the highest DPS AA,with mes quickness? yeah doesnt look bad.
might be a little to simple to do 2 skills for the win, but eh.

and again, 100% chill uptime. I might be fixating.

Lendruil.9061:

Obtena.7952:

Windsagio.1340:

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

There is also a tendency to believe that something is crap because it’s not exactly how a player thinks it should be. People want to play an unselfish class, but demand it be necro. That’s not how game dev works people. If you want non-selfish classes, they exist, play them.

I’m actually a little jealous because of the approach Anet took to making Reaper have 3 themes in the single elite spec. That’s a pretty thoughful approach IMO.

So basically you are saying that people just should not play necros in dungeons?

no, I can’t speak for obtena, but we’re saying “If they’re not going for a record and they refuse you or hate on you (or you hate on yourself) for wanting to take your reaper into the dungeon, the problem is them.”

It’s not so bad. It’s never been so bad, but it’s actually much improved now

Obtena.7952:

Windsagio.1340:

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

There is also a tendency to believe that something is crap because it’s not exactly how a player thinks it should be. People want to play an unselfish class, but demand it be necro. That’s not how game dev works people. If you want non-selfish classes, they exist, play them.

I’m actually a little jealous because of the approach Anet took to making Reaper have 3 themes in the single elite spec. That’s a pretty thoughful approach IMO.

I’m fine with a selfish necro, but wouldn’t it make sense for the selfish profession to be self reliant, probably even the best at the self reliant aspects? But, why isn’t that the case? They have to get carried through Lupi now. And their solo dps isn’t really all that special, though reaper should help that.

I don’t think it’s so much about that they aren’t strong at something as much as they really don’t seem to have strengths in anything.

Well from the stream, their direct damage seems really strong in reaper, and they’re apparently reworking blood magic to give them more support traits.

Greatsword is pretty terrible, but reaper’s auto attack DPS is pretty impressive and it seems to have really high coefficients on the other skills in Reaper’s Shroud. Plus, it’s self-sustaining to autoattack with Vital Persistence and keep it up 100%. With Deathly Perception you won’t even need the critical hit chance on vulnerability to fly past 100% crit chance.

Given that they want to rework Chilling Force anyway because the perma 25 might is a little too much, they could just turn it into a +10% damage modifier against chilled foes and that would really put Necro DPS up to where it should be.

Overall I’m really disappointed with Greatsword, frustrated with no blast finishers even though a number of effects look like they should have one, disappointed with the shouts, but fairly pleased with Reaper’s Shroud. Also, it sure looks fun to play even if it’s bad. Story of my Necromancer’s career.

I’ll be working this all into a report sometime in the next week along with the community’s comments on the Chronomancer and Dragon Hunter.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Greatsword is pretty terrible, but reaper’s auto attack DPS is pretty impressive and it seems to have really high coefficients on the other skills in Reaper’s Shroud. Plus, it’s self-sustaining to autoattack with Vital Persistence and keep it up 100%. With Deathly Perception you won’t even need the critical hit chance on vulnerability to fly past 100% crit chance.

Given that they want to rework Chilling Force anyway because the perma 25 might is a little too much, they could just turn it into a +10% damage modifier against chilled foes and that would really put Necro DPS up to where it should be.

Overall I’m really disappointed with Greatsword, frustrated with no blast finishers even though a number of effects look like they should have one, disappointed with the shouts, but fairly pleased with Reaper’s Shroud. Also, it sure looks fun to play even if it’s bad. Story of my Necromancer’s career.

I’ll be working this all into a report sometime in the next week along with the community’s comments on the Chronomancer and Dragon Hunter.

why would you say greatsword is terrible?

or did you just want more meta focused playstyles?

It’s slow, generates life force slowly, and from what I could see in the video seems to be dealing less damage than D/W. I’d probably only ever have one on the swap for the AOE blind skill and the pull when that’s relevant. Regardless, once we can figure out what amulet he was using in the videos we can actually do a proper comparison.

Chilling force needs to stay as it is. Its the same as forceful greatsword numbers wise. And it adds a strong solo trait to the necro to increase the necros self sufficient damage. Would be better if they changed siphoned power to a 10% modifier to be honest.

The greatsword isnt bad. I do admit the damage doesnt look as high as it needs to be. But the spam of gravedigger might make it a top weapon. That said i would like the rotation to involve swapping between dagger and greatsword. Because camping greatsword and DS is going to be boring.

Rising Dusk.2408:

It’s slow, generates life force slowly, and from what I could see in the video seems to be dealing less damage than D/W. I’d probably only ever have one on the swap for the AOE blind skill and the pull when that’s relevant. Regardless, once we can figure out what amulet he was using in the videos we can actually do a proper comparison.

well, they basically said it should do as much or more than warrior and guardian GS, depending how you read this,

We are trying to get a feel so I believe instead of taking a total of 1.5 seconds to complete the 3 part combo like the warrior and Guardian the Necro hits a bit harder but his combo is somewhere between 1.75 and 2 seconds long for all 3 attacks combined. In general, he has attacks that tend to be in the .75 to 1 second time frame instead of .5 to .75. In reality it’s a small difference and these attacks hit hard enough to make up for it.

so, either the necklace is low power, or its in flux

im guessing death spiral is 2% per hit, otherwise the weapon has no lifeforce gain at all

if its 2% per, then its 12% which is as good as you get really, especially multiple enemies, would put you at up to 36%, its also really fast as opposed to axe which takes like 2.5 seconds to get that 12%

but we cant really confirm, however i think they want you to be going into RS fairly often with gs, and 2% wouldnt let that happen

spoj.9672:

Chilling force needs to stay as it is. Its the same as forceful greatsword numbers wise. And it adds a strong solo trait to the necro to increase the necros self sufficient damage. Would be better if they changed siphoned power to a 10% modifier to be honest.

The greatsword isnt bad. I do admit the damage doesnt look as high as it needs to be. But the spam of gravedigger might make it a top weapon. That said i would like the rotation to involve swapping between dagger and greatsword. Because camping greatsword and DS is going to be boring.

yeah i guess, i wish they had another set that works really well with gs, and is as fun.

yeah i think they need to mess with the shouts a bit more, they dont feel useful enough.

It did look low for the GS damage numbers. But those are the easiest thing to change in the code, so maybe they just haven’t bothered to consider balance of that too much yet.

I wonder if we could convince anet to make the shout that transfers condi to affect allies? With a suitable cd/balance of course.
Making them also affect allies would really make them shine in group fights ( let’s face it, going 1v5 in pvp is basically suicide). But also PvE..

My gut thought with it though ( balance of dps and such pending): Easy mode volcanic fractal.
Which perhaps is the kind of thing anet was aiming for. It may be a little slower- but if it makes a fractal smoother & reliable, it’ll often be more fun/relaxed.

It does look like it’s going for a mirror to the guardian though, debuffs in place of boons and such, which I find a really nice place to have the necro.

edit: vampiric aura sounded interesting. Not sure how useful it’ll be mind you.

I’m not going to input too much, but the greatsword cooldown trait looks pretty effective as long as you’re fighting groups OR something below 50% health:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BJhPwy7_YFw9mT---JY2cIIJuEi-o48Aj6hzzsQdPGs/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true
In particular, the 6 second blind field could be kept up indefinitely once something drops below 50% health.

It generally looked like they were using a pretty defensive amulet, but with some condition damage as well as power (poison ticks over 100)

phys.7689:

Axelwarrior.9084:

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Ehh, probably going to be pretty high DPS for bosses. under 50% hp you ll be doing pretty large dmg if you take power.

100% crits, high dmg skill with no recast/low recast and 20% dmg boost under 50% hp.
and what they claim will be the highest DPS AA,with mes quickness? yeah doesnt look bad.
might be a little to simple to do 2 skills for the win, but eh.

I don’t know… Is high DPS enough for them to be viable suddenly? Even if they had the highest DPS, it would usually be better to take a class with group support, I would assume.
I’m no dungeon expert, mind you, so forgive me if I’m wrong.

Axelwarrior.9084:

phys.7689:

Axelwarrior.9084:

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Ehh, probably going to be pretty high DPS for bosses. under 50% hp you ll be doing pretty large dmg if you take power.

100% crits, high dmg skill with no recast/low recast and 20% dmg boost under 50% hp.
and what they claim will be the highest DPS AA,with mes quickness? yeah doesnt look bad.
might be a little to simple to do 2 skills for the win, but eh.

I don’t know… Is high DPS enough for them to be viable suddenly? Even if they had the highest DPS, it would usually be better to take a class with group support, I would assume.
I’m no dungeon expert, mind you, so forgive me if I’m wrong.

depends what you got.
if you already got those things capped, more dps could be good.

phys.7689:

Axelwarrior.9084:

phys.7689:

Axelwarrior.9084:

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Ehh, probably going to be pretty high DPS for bosses. under 50% hp you ll be doing pretty large dmg if you take power.

100% crits, high dmg skill with no recast/low recast and 20% dmg boost under 50% hp.
and what they claim will be the highest DPS AA,with mes quickness? yeah doesnt look bad.
might be a little to simple to do 2 skills for the win, but eh.

I don’t know… Is high DPS enough for them to be viable suddenly? Even if they had the highest DPS, it would usually be better to take a class with group support, I would assume.
I’m no dungeon expert, mind you, so forgive me if I’m wrong.

depends what you got.
if you already got those things capped, more dps could be good.

Even if you have 1 Ele, Guardian, Thief and Warrior, wouldn’t it better to just take another Ele or, if not, maybe a Ranger for frost spirit?
I guess it’s hard to tell before we get some actual numbers, but it’s a little far-fetched to assume their DPS is that good.

EDIT: Not to mention we haven’t seen all the specializations yet. Engineers or Rangers could become top-tier in dungeons for all we know

Lendruil.9061:

Obtena.7952:

Windsagio.1340:

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

There is also a tendency to believe that something is crap because it’s not exactly how a player thinks it should be. People want to play an unselfish class, but demand it be necro. That’s not how game dev works people. If you want non-selfish classes, they exist, play them.

I’m actually a little jealous because of the approach Anet took to making Reaper have 3 themes in the single elite spec. That’s a pretty thoughful approach IMO.

So basically you are saying that people just should not play necros in dungeons?

Seems like it. As if they could tell people what to do…? I’m sure many will be happy to oblige, nonetheless. I do, however, feel that the subtext is:

“I’m upset because they say it brings little in a party; don’t you dare say it, you’re just DEMANDING (?srsly) for a necro to do anything it doesn’t do now, anet doesn’t want it that way! It’s not a problem because the ele is carrying my damage and the guardian is guarding my a**, so see? I can do some damage and vuln and chill, I’m useful, therefore you’re not allowed to say it’s selfish, you contrary prick. Stay away from my class and don’t you dare ever speak up about matters you don’t understand. Necros mains only here!”.
Godkitten right, not playing necro, playing other classes.
Since I am not the one telling others what to say or what to play, hm, still doing what I like, which is saying that it seems to be a selfish spec and I hoped for something else, pve-oriented, that could make it play a little differently… but /shrug, it’s ok, some classes just aren’t built for it. It was like that in gw1 aswell. Mes’ used to be lame in high-end pve, but strong in pvp. Then they invented Panic… but I digress.
And we still have seen little about the spec. It’s still… on the table.
Supposedly.
At least on the “looks fun” (for someone) table.
P.S. They could have given necros the “panic treatment”, but no… the class isn’t designed for that, anet beware! don’t you dare!

I don’t care if they are part of the meta.

This looks like necros will finally have an OK dungeon/fractal build (I suspect more useful in fractals since trash mobs are more prevalent). No they aren’t going to have amazing support but it looks playable without being significantly behind the other classes. That means no one should reasonably be kicking necros out of groups immediately in the future.

Looking forward to soloing with a Reaper, looks like it will be pretty good for that. I’m also eager to see if power/fer/condi stats might become useful for the Reaper since they will have crazy crit chance traits anyway… could make for some potent condi/dps hybrids if they can add a few condis on top of good DPS. This could even be good in groups if they really remove the condi cap.

spoj.9672:

Chilling force needs to stay as it is. Its the same as forceful greatsword numbers wise. And it adds a strong solo trait to the necro to increase the necros self sufficient damage. Would be better if they changed siphoned power to a 10% modifier to be honest.

The problem isn’t inherently Chilling Force, it’s Chilling Force stacked with Reaper’s Might, which would pretty much guarantee solo 25 might permanently when attacking with RS1. I’d personally prefer it if they kept Chilling Force and replaced Reaper’s Might, but they really shouldn’t let both stay as-is.

spoj.9672:

The greatsword isnt bad. I do admit the damage doesnt look as high as it needs to be. But the spam of gravedigger might make it a top weapon. That said i would like the rotation to involve swapping between dagger and greatsword. Because camping greatsword and DS is going to be boring.

It will no matter what if only for Warhorn 5. If GS ends up being obscenely strong than the rotation would have you swap to Warhorn for the 5 before going into RS and when you come out you swap directly to GS, skipping Dagger. That said, I’m pretty confident that RS’s skill coefficients are much higher than GS’s, and given that D/W is a much better complement to a RS build, I can’t see GS seeing that much use.

The solo might is something necros have always needed. As a selfish class we should be self sufficient. Warrior gets all that solo might and loads of group buffing. So atleast now we can get solo might. And we have to make a big tradeoff for it. We cant take decimate defences if we take chilling force. So i think its fair. Plus it may not be as easy to maintain chill as it seems now when it goes live.

If they really want to nerf chilling force then they should make it on crit. But the boon duration and no icd should remain as it is. If they change either of those it becomes an over nerf. And if they cap the number of times it can proc in a certain time period its a seriously big restriction. You dont see that kind of restriction with forceful greatsword despite it being able to max stack might for the entire party when coupled with phalanx.

Also numbers wise im going to calc the coefficients now. They showed BiP tool tip so we can work out the power he had in those clips. Assuming he has the same power for all tool tip images and BiP coefficient hasnt been changed we can work out the coefficients. :>

ps. Estimated power he had in the videos is about 1950. I had the same tooltip damage on BiP when i had 1947 power.

Rising Dusk.2408:

spoj.9672:

Chilling force needs to stay as it is. Its the same as forceful greatsword numbers wise. And it adds a strong solo trait to the necro to increase the necros self sufficient damage. Would be better if they changed siphoned power to a 10% modifier to be honest.

The problem isn’t inherently Chilling Force, it’s Chilling Force stacked with Reaper’s Might, which would pretty much guarantee solo 25 might permanently when attacking with RS1. I’d personally prefer it if they kept Chilling Force and replaced Reaper’s Might, but they really shouldn’t let both stay as-is.

And Necros are the “selfish” profession, shouldn’t they be pretty self reliant? I mean how much different is this from Forceful Greatsword, but that can actually be shared with the group! This will just be helping the necro themselves.

My biggest disappointment is still no evades/blocks. They addressed a lot of other concerns but for the love of god some vigor would be nice.

Heres the coefficients i got. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword so weapon power of 1000.

Greatsword

Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013

Gravedigger – 2.027

Death Spiral – 0.912

Nightfall – 0.731

Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013

Reaper’s Shroud

Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216

Death’s Charge – 1.013

Soul Spiral – 2.787

Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533

Other Stuff

Shouts – 0.345

Elite Shout – 1.379

Chilling Nova – 0.137

So yeah the greatsword coefficients arent amazing. Neither are the Reaper shroud ones to be honest. Also take into account that necro has less damage modifier traits than other classes. These probably arent high enough especially as they are quite slow.

Chilling Scythe should be atleast 1.2 coefficient. Guard greatsword has a better auto attack than this currently. Its also faster and gets more modifiers through traits.

But when paired with the pretty sweet might production they’ll be hitting like a truck in PVP and that’s all that matters right?

Jerus.4350:

But when paired with the pretty sweet might production they’ll be hitting like a truck in PVP and that’s all that matters right?

If only those hits ever land.

spoj.9672:

Heres the coefficients i got. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword so weapon power of 1000.

Greatsword

Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013

Gravedigger – 2.027

Death Spiral – 0.912

Nightfall – 0.731

Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013

Reaper’s Shroud

Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216

Death’s Charge – 1.013

Soul Spiral – 2.787

Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533

Other Stuff

Shouts – 0.345

Elite Shout – 1.379

Chilling Nova – 0.137

So yeah the greatsword coefficients arent amazing. Neither are the Reaper shroud ones to be honest. Also take into account that necro has less damage modifier traits than other classes. These probably arent high enough especially as they are quite slow.

Chilling Scythe should be atleast 1.2 coefficient. Guard greatsword has a better auto attack than this currently. Its also faster and gets more modifiers through traits.

they are still messing with the numbers, but they said they wanted it to hit at least as hard as warrior/guardian, so we can assume they are going to change it, If not, the whole concept will fail, as no one will fear their up close dmg, and the wind up.

Thats why im bringing it up now. They need to consider more than just the base coefficients and cast times/attack speeds. They also need to consider damage modifier traits and cooldowns. The damage is the thing that will decide whether the class improves or not. So its important they get this right.

A friend of mine brought it up that the Scythe has a 300 attack range.

Yeah thats only relevant in PvP though. :P

The greatsword is 170 range aswell.

Edit: Your friend is wrong. The auto attacks are all 170. Only exception is the final chain hit in reapers shroud which is 220. Some of the AOE skills are larger. Soul Spiral is 300. It does more damage than life transfer but Life Transfer is 600 range.

I don’t know, to me it seems like a nerf to survival.

A shortbow thief, d/d ele with all that condi clear or a mesmer will take a dump on reaper necro. You have a single pull on your weapon with a fairly short range and obvious animation on a 25 sec cd and a leap on DS, that’s it. You’re gonna get kited all day.

It’s also pretty crappy they nerfed the necro interrupt potential with a short range aoe fear replacing doom that also requires you to sacrifice your stability source.

I still think that fear in PvE should make the mobs tremble in place like a stun instead of spreading them all out.

Another problem thematically with the class is that it’s very chill centric but chill is kind of a mediocre condition in PvE.

Unless people are forced to kite mobs or die because a guardian and ele cannot aegis+protect spam the group through the damage, the condition will be at reduced effectiveness and even the cooldown increase is of marginal effect on PvE mobs.

And if we DO get mobs which we are forced to kite or get downed because they are unavoidably lethal in melee, then chill isn’t even that useful to begin it because they replaced life blast as our ranged option and all we are left with is the garbage axe and its terrible autoattack damage.

I’m also surprised he kept bragging about spectral grasp synergy, because the very reason it isn’t even used is its projectile is pitifully slow and it’s a fairly mediocre effect (a single target pull projectile) costing a precious utility slot on a class that needs to slot more important things like stunbreaks, wells, and boon corruption or blood is power.

Spectral grasp could see nice pve use if it were made an aoe pull ala guardian greatsword.

Does anyone have a clue why the Necromancers still won’t have nearly as much support and utility as they need to be on par with other professions in PvE?

I’m genuinely interested in hearing any explanation. Designing professions to be fun to play, i.e., doesn’t seem to make sense, as most enjoyment seem to disappear when your profession is sub-par – and sometimes even get kicked because of it.

~

Also, I don’t understand why having access to a sufficient amount of group-support would break theme; Having a being of nightmares on your team surely makes something vaguely (or very) similar to Empowered Allies natural. Or maybe one could possess allies, making them go berserk – and perhaps gain a bit of bleeding or poison, which would make the Necros tools for party wide condi-clense more viable… It doesn’t break theme…

@Phadde.7362

The class balance is mostly focused on pvp. Pve are just a side effect. Fun is subjective, what you think is fun to play others might think it is not.

xDudisx.5914:

@Phadde.7362

The class balance is mostly focused on pvp. Pve are just a side effect. Fun is subjective, what you think is fun to play others might think it is not.

Well, unless that means that they almost completely neglect PvE, It’s hardly the full story.
Fun is indeed subjective, but it would seem that the fact that the profession is sub-par to this extent would mean a huge reduction in enjoyment for the general PvE player, no?

Phadde.7362:

xDudisx.5914:

@Phadde.7362

The class balance is mostly focused on pvp. Pve are just a side effect. Fun is subjective, what you think is fun to play others might think it is not.

Well, unless that means that they almost completely neglect PvE, It’s hardly the full story.
Fun is indeed subjective, but it would seem that the fact that the profession is sub-par to this extent would mean a huge reduction in enjoyment for the general PvE player, no?

Necros are very important in wvw.
Necros are viable in spvp. People have own anets tournaments using 1 necro on the team comp.
Necros can play any pve content in the game.

Yes they might not be optimal for speed runs but that is not mandatory for the game. If you just want fun you wouldn’t mind taking a few seconds longer to complete a dungeon.

What about those of us that want to play a class because its fun but also like to contribute and be atleast semi useful? This is actually probably the mindset of most players. Theres a minority that only care for efficiency. And theres a minority of people that only care about fun and dont give a crap how bad their builds are. This is about fixing the issue for the middle group. Where people value varying degrees of both sides.

spoj.9672:

What about those of us that want to play a class because its fun but also like to contribute and be atleast semi useful? This is actually probably the mindset of most players. Theres a minority that only care for efficiency. And theres a minority of people that only care about fun and dont give a crap how bad their builds are. This is about fixing the issue for the middle group. Where people value varying degrees of both sides.

And who said necro is useless? They might not be optimal for speed claering dungeons but is far from been useless. Not optimal =/= useless. They have vulnerability, chils, blinds, aoe condi clear, boon removal, etc. Sure they are not a guardian or ele but they are not useless unless. Condis will also be better on HoT so necro will become a bit better on groups.

Besides he’s saying necros can clear content in the non-speedclear scene but my experience doing pug runs as a necromancer is that you get the boot before you even get a chance to load into the dungeon, at least in arah and fractal 50 it’s very common. The only other class that happens to is ranger.

I have yet to, once in my 2.5+ year stint in this game, ever get vote kicked on my guardian. On my ele it only happened very early when idiots thought only heavies were good for fractals and that conjure ele was bad.

xDudisx.5914:

spoj.9672:

What about those of us that want to play a class because its fun but also like to contribute and be atleast semi useful? This is actually probably the mindset of most players. Theres a minority that only care for efficiency. And theres a minority of people that only care about fun and dont give a crap how bad their builds are. This is about fixing the issue for the middle group. Where people value varying degrees of both sides.

And who said necro is useless? They might not be optimal for speed claering dungeons but is far from been useless. Not optimal =/= useless. They have vulnerability, chils, blinds, aoe condi clear, boon removal, etc. Sure they are not a guardian or ele but they are not useless unless. Condis will also be better on HoT so necro will become a bit better on groups.

Yes its true not optimal =/ useless. But in the case of necro its not optimal and it is almost completely useless. Lack of finishers. Poor blind access. Poor vuln access. Chill has almost no use in PvE currently. Boon removal is useless in PvE. Bad group condi clears. Low damage. Condition damage is bad currently and necro has less condi damage than other classes.

Leave your bubble. There wouldnt be this many people complaining about necro if there wasnt an issue. You are one of the small minority that does not give a crap about relative usefulness so it doesnt matter to you. But it does matter to many others.

I and many others feel guilty about playing necro with friends that dont care about what I bring. And thats because i know how little the class contributes. I feel like a leech when i do it and its off putting. Id rather not feel guilty about playing my favourite class.

Jerus.4350:

But when paired with the pretty sweet might production they’ll be hitting like a truck in PVP and that’s all that matters right?

So you’re only allowed to mention pvp in these threads if you’re being sarcastic about it?

#spoj

They are reworking the way condis work for HoT.
Poor blind access? Plague form, well of darkness, etc..
Poor vuln acess? The new specialization will have plenty, also well of suffering.

Not every class needs to be the same. We have plenty of classes that bring blast, fire fields and reflect. If it does not fit your playstyle then reroll. Don’t expect them to make changes based on a very specific and niche build like dungeon zerker speed runners. Leave your bubble.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

But when paired with the pretty sweet might production they’ll be hitting like a truck in PVP and that’s all that matters right?

So you’re only allowed to mention pvp in these threads if you’re being sarcastic about it?

Not at all, it’s very valid considering the majority of balance is based around it, often to the detriment of PVE.