Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

I think that if you want new content you have to wait for new MMO relase like TES . Then Anet was really afraid and we got in april patch megaserver,wardrobe etc etc . Maybe when blizzard will strike they will announce new content .

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that it’s only been 5 months since that patch and that programming takes actual time? During that time they were releasing in China which kept a lot of people busy as well.

There’s a perfectly logical explanation as to why a feature patch that had less time has less than a feature pack that had more.

Still when you look at two years of development , we have nothing . As a customer I dont care what happens in their company , I just see what I get and I have right to comment it and all I can say that it is crap , till april we didnt have good update . 1st living story was good 2nd is joke . I already said I preffer to spend my money in different games casue Anet is wasting full potential of this game .

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

<snip>I have made it known that I would like to see things like FoW, UW, and DoA come back. Even going as far to say that those areas should function similarly to how they did in GW1 – your party wipes, you start over. <snip>

Illuminati.2431:

I would like to see more bosses like Liadri. It required (a bit) of skill, you had to understand mechanics. You had to practice it. I never stumbled across someone who never played Liadri and finished it in one try. <snip>

When posts like these come up, I have a really hard time understanding what people mean by “end content” when they go one to describe what they want is in an old game.

So, can it be explained why things like TA Aetherblade path, Arah, Fractals aren’t being considered end-game content? Is it because the rewards don’t match the difficulty? So if TA guaranteed a particular skin like SAB…it would be worth it? If Arah and Fractals rewards were “better” (whether that be more expensive loot or more loot or unique loot), then it would be ok? So is the issue that the REWARDS are not great or is there really no “end-game” content?

In terms of bosses like Liadri….who kept on battling Liadri after defeating her and getting the mini? I have not heard of many people 1. bothering to fight her to the death and 2. fighting her again after she’s been beaten in the same year (cause maybe people tried again the second time she showed up). And on that note…what reward is there to beat Liadri except for the mini and achievement? What reward would there be to battle her again? On that same line of thinking, once the skin you wanted in SAB was obtained…what is the reward for doing it again?

I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, I sincerely don’t understand it. I ran UW and FoW maybe once each and I don’t remember what the rewards were. UW I ran with a guildie as a way to farm ecto…I do miss that.

I agree with the party wipes, dungeon over…unless someone remembered to bring rez orbs. And really, I super enjoyed mapping solo in hard mode. However, I don’t remember there being a great reward for that other than personal satisfaction and a mark done towards the achievement.

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

Sweetblue Huntress.9856:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

<snip>I have made it known that I would like to see things like FoW, UW, and DoA come back. Even going as far to say that those areas should function similarly to how they did in GW1 – your party wipes, you start over. <snip>

Illuminati.2431:

I would like to see more bosses like Liadri. It required (a bit) of skill, you had to understand mechanics. You had to practice it. I never stumbled across someone who never played Liadri and finished it in one try. <snip>

So, can it be explained why things like TA Aetherblade path, Arah, Fractals aren’t being considered end-game content?

Because the rewards are extremely poor.
Just last week, I ran FOTM 49 every day and by the end of the week I had only “earned” around 20G.
It’s not worth the time and effort.
I’m well over 500 FOTM runs and I still haven’t received the skin I want, the RNG is too insane.

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

Who on earth wastes time doing challenging content that has abysmal rewards?
What game uses this logic?

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

while there are some people that want to thinly veil their desire for a gear treadmill behind the above, there are also a group of people that simply -do- just want new, challenging content, myself included in the latter.

EX. I think shadow of the dragon was a step in the right direction.

I also think all the mordrem are a step in the right direction.

for this reason, I hang out in Dry Top a lot. Not because of loot, but because I can actually get pressed by the content difficulty there.

@ above post

note abysmal is not the same as not best rewards in game.

On the other hand, I’d totally do challenging X for rare skin Y.

We want THE MARIONETTE!

Sweetblue Huntress.9856:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

<snip>I have made it known that I would like to see things like FoW, UW, and DoA come back. Even going as far to say that those areas should function similarly to how they did in GW1 – your party wipes, you start over. <snip>

Illuminati.2431:

I would like to see more bosses like Liadri. It required (a bit) of skill, you had to understand mechanics. You had to practice it. I never stumbled across someone who never played Liadri and finished it in one try. <snip>

When posts like these come up, I have a really hard time understanding what people mean by “end content” when they go one to describe what they want is in an old game.

So, can it be explained why things like TA Aetherblade path, Arah, Fractals aren’t being considered end-game content? Is it because the rewards don’t match the difficulty? So if TA guaranteed a particular skin like SAB…it would be worth it? If Arah and Fractals rewards were “better” (whether that be more expensive loot or more loot or unique loot), then it would be ok? So is the issue that the REWARDS are not great or is there really no “end-game” content?

In terms of bosses like Liadri….who kept on battling Liadri after defeating her and getting the mini? I have not heard of many people 1. bothering to fight her to the death and 2. fighting her again after she’s been beaten in the same year (cause maybe people tried again the second time she showed up). And on that note…what reward is there to beat Liadri except for the mini and achievement? What reward would there be to battle her again? On that same line of thinking, once the skin you wanted in SAB was obtained…what is the reward for doing it again?

I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, I sincerely don’t understand it. I ran UW and FoW maybe once each and I don’t remember what the rewards were. UW I ran with a guildie as a way to farm ecto…I do miss that.

I agree with the party wipes, dungeon over…unless someone remembered to bring rez orbs. And really, I super enjoyed mapping solo in hard mode. However, I don’t remember there being a great reward for that other than personal satisfaction and a mark done towards the achievement.

I did FoW and UW a lot – with guildies, with pugs, with heroes, even alone, just because I found them fun. As GW2 is the sequel to GW1, it’s not too unrealistic (imo) that these zones could return. Of course, I would expect to see changes to them. New tasks, new challenges.

Of course, I was not stating that these are the only types of end game content. Only pointing out the misconception that ‘casual’ players seemingly only desire ‘easy content.’ Which is quite untrue. I did go on to state that there are lot of different groups that would each like something a little different.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

while there are some people that want to thinly veil their desire for a gear treadmill behind the above, there are also a group of people that simply -do- just want new, challenging content, myself included in the latter.

EX. I think shadow of the dragon was a step in the right direction.

I also think all the mordrem are a step in the right direction.

for this reason, I hang out in Dry Top a lot. Not because of loot, but because I can actually get pressed by the content difficulty there.

Yea, there is a group of us that does want challenging content but don’t need guaranteed better loot to get us to do it. For some of us, completing the challenging content and being able to say I did it, is reward enough. We’re likely not a very big group and probably include both hardcore and casual players to some degree.

There is a 3rd type of group in this equation. While the first 2 are arguing over what the end-game should be, the 3rd group are the ones creating it. The devs.They also have their own ideas and ideals of what “Endgame” should be, and ultimately are the deciding factor with or without the input of groups 1 or 2.

Nick.6972:

Because the rewards are extremely poor.
Just last week, I ran FOTM 49 every day and by the end of the week I had only “earned” around 20G.
It’s not worth the time and effort.
I’m well over 500 FOTM runs and I still haven’t received the skin I want, the RNG is too insane.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I did FoW and UW a lot – with guildies, with pugs, with heroes, even alone, just because I found them fun. As GW2 is the sequel to GW1, it’s not too unrealistic (imo) that these zones could return. Of course, I would expect to see changes to them. New tasks, new challenges.

Of course, I was not stating that these are the only types of end game content. Only pointing out the misconception that ‘casual’ players seemingly only desire ‘easy content.’ Which is quite untrue. I did go on to state that there are lot of different groups that would each like something a little different.

Nick, I think that is what people are truly complaining about. The problem is not that there isn’t content…it’s that the rewards are not worth it. That’s doesn’t mean there isn’t “end-game” content though.

Lanfear, you don’t answer the question though. So the end content is there, you just don’t like it? What would make it better, then?

OP forgot the third group asking for end-game content: the gold compiler. This group’s aim is to optimise the earned gold per hour. They want this coupled with excluding content with rewards that can be sold for a lot of gold leading to a even higher gold accumulation rate.

There are several factors complicating the issue the OP raises.

1. The thing about “endgame” pursuits, whether they be WoW-style or GW style, is that repetition is fueled by reward in MMO’s. Without rewards, those clamoring for more challenging content will not utilize said content. Take the toxic alliance events in Kessex, Gendarren, etc. These are demonstrably harder than most of the events in the game. By-and-large, unless they spawn Champs with a big enough herd doing them, they are ignored. Why aren’t those seeking challenge soloing these events? No rewards. ANet is trying to add challenge. Virtually every mob army added since launch (Karka, Molten, Aether, Toxic, Mordremoth, Risen revamp) has featured mobs that are harder than launch armies. How utilized is this content? Well, people say, “What are the rewards.”
2. ANet has expressed reluctance to “split the player base” too much. Let’s face it, standard endgame is entirely instanced. GW-style endgame is entirely instanced. Liadri was a solo event. Instanced content splits the player base. However, the challenge in instanced content can be better scaled so that the challenge is appropriate to the group size. ANet has had difficulty creating large group content that cannot be “outnumbered.”
3. GW2 difficulty is based around forcing players to use the tools the game provides to avoid damage. Large attacks that can quickly ablate your health mean that either you dodge (block, etc.) or you don’t. There is no continuum of difficulty. If your knowledge of the mob AI and your reflexes are up to the task, the game feels too easy. If they aren’t, then it feels too hard. There might be a middle ground, but people who want hard challenges are typically going to be those who practice until they get “it” down, and as a result will be in the “too easy” end of the pool.
4. GW2’s approach to challenging content is large-group oriented. Teq and THW get done daily, it seems, but by how many? Thousands, probably, but how many thousands out of the while player base? Other events (meta’s, temple events, group events in general) are either ignored or are done in herds large enough that the challenge often becomes, “Can you tag enough to get full credit?”

Unless the base ANet development philosophies change (and I don’t see that happening), the best you will be able to look forward to is more of the same.

Sweetblue Huntress.9856:

Lanfear, you don’t answer the question though. So the end content is there, you just don’t like it? What would make it better, then?

End content is there yes. I am one of those that ascribes to the original statement “the entire game is end game.” I’ve never claimed there wasn’t end game. In fact, I’ve argued that it does exist, it might just not be the type of endgame specific groups of people desire.

Sure, there are things I don’t like, I just find something else that I do like. I’ve stated many times that I like the LS. I enjoy dungeoning with my guildies, we do CM …. a lot. We’ll just go with a lot. For no other reason than we have fun doing it.

If anything my request is simply for more options for the variety of groups, which you can easily see from my posting history. More maps, more story, more dungeons, elite zones, more pvp modes, etc etc. It just takes time to do it all. shrug

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

End content is there yes. I am one of those that ascribes to the original statement “the entire game is end game.” I’ve never claimed there wasn’t end game. In fact, I’ve argued that it does exist, it might just not be the type of endgame specific groups of people desire. <snip>

Thank you – my apologies, when I first wrote the response I confused you for the OP. I realized my mistake after I posted.

I agree that there is still more that those specific groups will like and should get. While I’m thinking, it’s only been two years! others are thinking it’s already been two years!. Perspective I guess.

I’d love for the OP to chime in again.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There are several factors complicating the issue the OP raises.

1. The thing about “endgame” pursuits, whether they be WoW-style or GW style, is that repetition is fueled by reward in MMO’s. Without rewards, those clamoring for more challenging content will not utilize said content. Take the toxic alliance events in Kessex, Gendarren, etc. These are demonstrably harder than most of the events in the game. By-and-large, unless they spawn Champs with a big enough herd doing them, they are ignored. Why aren’t those seeking challenge soloing these events? No rewards. ANet is trying to add challenge. Virtually every mob army added since launch (Karka, Molten, Aether, Toxic, Mordremoth, Risen revamp) has featured mobs that are harder than launch armies. How utilized is this content? Well, people say, “What are the rewards.”
2. ANet has expressed reluctance to “split the player base” too much. Let’s face it, standard endgame is entirely instanced. GW-style endgame is entirely instanced. Liadri was a solo event. Instanced content splits the player base. However, the challenge in instanced content can be better scaled so that the challenge is appropriate to the group size. ANet has had difficulty creating large group content that cannot be “outnumbered.”
3. GW2 difficulty is based around forcing players to use the tools the game provides to avoid damage. Large attacks that can quickly ablate your health mean that either you dodge (block, etc.) or you don’t. There is no continuum of difficulty. If your knowledge of the mob AI and your reflexes are up to the task, the game feels too easy. If they aren’t, then it feels too hard. There might be a middle ground, but people who want hard challenges are typically going to be those who practice until they get “it” down, and as a result will be in the “too easy” end of the pool.
4. GW2’s approach to challenging content is large-group oriented. Teq and THW get done daily, it seems, but by how many? Thousands, probably, but how many thousands out of the while player base? Other events (meta’s, temple events, group events in general) are either ignored or are done in herds large enough that the challenge often becomes, “Can you tag enough to get full credit?”

Unless the base ANet development philosophies change (and I don’t see that happening), the best you will be able to look forward to is more of the same.

I like this post. Southsun is a ghost town, especially after the initial hype, and even though traits now require you to slay Karka in lieu of paying gold.

When new, challenging content does drop, if it doesn’t give outlandish rewards, it rarely gets played.

Seera.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

while there are some people that want to thinly veil their desire for a gear treadmill behind the above, there are also a group of people that simply -do- just want new, challenging content, myself included in the latter.

EX. I think shadow of the dragon was a step in the right direction.

I also think all the mordrem are a step in the right direction.

for this reason, I hang out in Dry Top a lot. Not because of loot, but because I can actually get pressed by the content difficulty there.

Yea, there is a group of us that does want challenging content but don’t need guaranteed better loot to get us to do it. For some of us, completing the challenging content and being able to say I did it, is reward enough. We’re likely not a very big group and probably include both hardcore and casual players to some degree.

But that is the problem in an MMO where content should be played more than once.
Extreme had content is sometimes nice when you beat it, but then you may say :
ok .. great i’ve done that .. but never ever again.

To say it clear : yes .. MMO endgame is always a kind of farm / grind where you do
repeat the same stuff again and again .. and mostly its better if you get better rewards
in shorter time.

Now the call for more challenge in the end always leads to the problem that people
think they are sooo much better players and for that reason they deserve to get
either “exclusive” stuff that 95% of the playerbase will never ever have a chance to get,
or simply they want at least to get significant more loot so that they can achieve
everything much faster than the rest of the players.

OP always talks about SAB because that was the “exclusive” stuff .. funny fact he also
talks about that this is an MMO often .. while masses of players also hated SAB because
they thought this is an MMO .. and not a console game aka Super Mario.

Beldin.5498:

Seera.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

while there are some people that want to thinly veil their desire for a gear treadmill behind the above, there are also a group of people that simply -do- just want new, challenging content, myself included in the latter.

EX. I think shadow of the dragon was a step in the right direction.

I also think all the mordrem are a step in the right direction.

for this reason, I hang out in Dry Top a lot. Not because of loot, but because I can actually get pressed by the content difficulty there.

Yea, there is a group of us that does want challenging content but don’t need guaranteed better loot to get us to do it. For some of us, completing the challenging content and being able to say I did it, is reward enough. We’re likely not a very big group and probably include both hardcore and casual players to some degree.

But that is the problem in an MMO where content should be played more than once.
Extreme had content is sometimes nice when you beat it, but then you may say :
ok .. great i’ve done that .. but never ever again.

To say it clear : yes .. MMO endgame is always a kind of farm / grind where you do
repeat the same stuff again and again .. and mostly its better if you get better rewards
in shorter time.

Now the call for more challenge in the end always leads to the problem that people
think they are sooo much better players and for that reason they deserve to get
either “exclusive” stuff that 95% of the playerbase will never ever have a chance to get,
or simply they want at least to get significant more loot so that they can achieve
everything much faster than the rest of the players.

OP always talks about SAB because that was the “exclusive” stuff .. funny fact he also
talks about that this is an MMO often .. while masses of players also hated SAB because
they thought this is an MMO .. and not a console game aka Super Mario.

I’d like to chime in and say that I adore SAB for what it was, and not for its loot. Hating an aspect of a game that is incredibly different from the theme of the overall game just because it is different is kind of a narrow view, imo.

Beldin.5498:

Seera.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

while there are some people that want to thinly veil their desire for a gear treadmill behind the above, there are also a group of people that simply -do- just want new, challenging content, myself included in the latter.

EX. I think shadow of the dragon was a step in the right direction.

I also think all the mordrem are a step in the right direction.

for this reason, I hang out in Dry Top a lot. Not because of loot, but because I can actually get pressed by the content difficulty there.

Yea, there is a group of us that does want challenging content but don’t need guaranteed better loot to get us to do it. For some of us, completing the challenging content and being able to say I did it, is reward enough. We’re likely not a very big group and probably include both hardcore and casual players to some degree.

But that is the problem in an MMO where content should be played more than once.
Extreme had content is sometimes nice when you beat it, but then you may say :
ok .. great i’ve done that .. but never ever again.

To say it clear : yes .. MMO endgame is always a kind of farm / grind where you do
repeat the same stuff again and again .. and mostly its better if you get better rewards
in shorter time.

Now the call for more challenge in the end always leads to the problem that people
think they are sooo much better players and for that reason they deserve to get
either “exclusive” stuff that 95% of the playerbase will never ever have a chance to get,
or simply they want at least to get significant more loot so that they can achieve
everything much faster than the rest of the players.

OP always talks about SAB because that was the “exclusive” stuff .. funny fact he also
talks about that this is an MMO often .. while masses of players also hated SAB because
they thought this is an MMO .. and not a console game aka Super Mario.

If you read my posts carefully about SAB, you will read I dont talk about SAB style wise, content wise etc etc. I just talk about the mechanics of SAB. It was replayable, had 2 types of diffeculties, and both types had different rewards. And that I would like to see a variation of that in other content. I don’t talk about SAB in the way in works: jumping on 8 bit platforms etc etc.

But like stated earlier, if you read my posts carefully, you would have known.

The big thing the “pve raids” group is very small so small that other games who where purely raid end games did not last a month after coming out. Its just this group of ppl who play this type of end game are some of the most loudest and tend to tread forums like a real life raid as in they work together (unknowingly and knowingly) to get there views though.
Pve raiding end game is dead. Your never going to see large groups play games like its some type of job any more from games there just simply too many other games that you can play for fun.
Small scale pve and one time events end game is still very alive but these do not take the level of planing and do not give you the level of rewards that the old super size raids gave ppl.

Now PvP end game still well and alive and is very different game type even single player games have a pvp end game.

The other end game is the sand box end game the build your own house etc.. this is both pve and pvp at times though a lot of ppl who do this in pve tend to HATE if there is any type of pvp in it and the same for the pvp version. The big things is if there too much stand box or freedom it becomes a mess very fast and simply turn into a greffing fest or you will see one group simply hold a world hostages because its so big that there is no more room for any one else.

There may be a third group, which I am in. I am a casual player and I just want more beautiful places to see, scary monsters to kill, etc. I could care less if I get any “stuff” while doing so. I just want to explore the game and marvel at the beautiful zones they create. This is why we have been so excited (my son and I) with Dry Top. I hope more stuff like that keeps coming. But I’m probably in the minority

Sweetblue Huntress.9856:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

End content is there yes. I am one of those that ascribes to the original statement “the entire game is end game.” I’ve never claimed there wasn’t end game. In fact, I’ve argued that it does exist, it might just not be the type of endgame specific groups of people desire. <snip>

Thank you – my apologies, when I first wrote the response I confused you for the OP. I realized my mistake after I posted.

I agree that there is still more that those specific groups will like and should get. While I’m thinking, it’s only been two years! others are thinking it’s already been two years!. Perspective I guess.

I’d love for the OP to chime in again.

No worries, and yes it’s all perspective.

Admitted, the OP has a point when he calls out the time period. ‘Typical’ MMOs would have their first expansion out by now, and in some cases the player base would already have it consumed. Some of us have always known, thought, that GW2 was never going to be your ‘typical’ mmo. Anet really does like blazing their own trail.

Vayne.8563:

Illuminati.2431:

Vayne.8563:

Most companies won’t come right out and say, you guys are a minority and we’re not going to cater to you. Why would they? Would you? They’ll do the best they can, but they’ll not usually say it.

But we’ve had comments over the years from devs from different companies, including Anet devs talking about Guild War 1, where they said the bulk of the people never do the challenging content. This isn’t something new, or something I just decided, or something I figured out recently. It’s been talked about in MMO forums for years. The most recent quote that I can find came form a lotro dev. Less than 10% of the game PvPed and did raids, not just at this point, but pretty much all along. 10% isn’t a big number to include both PvP and raids. He was talking about why they’re no longer making the raid instances they used to.

Again, if enough people were playing dungeons in general, Anet would have a dungeon team working full time on dungeons. Can you tell me why you think they wouldn’t?

Because a huge playerbase played SAB, asked them to death about it to rerelease, open old worlds etc. and nothing that even comes close to SAB in mechanics, reward system etc. has come out since what, like 1 year?

That’s why I think they wouldn’t.

A very passionate playerbase certainly but how do you know huge? Where are the stats? Anet knows how many people played it, and they know how many people didn’t. We can only guess at this.

A passionate playerbase isn’t necessarily a large one. In that same lotro dev quote, the dev said that though less than 10% of people ever raided, more than 50% of forum posts were made by raiders.

Kind of makes you think, no?

It really amazes me that former DJ turned community manager (Not Dev) Rick Heaton`s <10% statement gets posted on other forums.

Heres why:

After the ensuing kitten storm, Mr Heaton was sacked retired from his position at Turbine.

LOTROs producer has since posted:

“the 10% thing. Just drop that. I just don’t look at a game that way. I will consider anything if it is good for the game, and good for the players. There are realities like resources and time and money that do come into play. "

I`m sure Mr Heaton regrets his statement that created a nasty divide within the lotro community.

Kind of makes you think, no?

fourhim.3584:

There may be a third group, which I am in. I am a casual player and I just want more beautiful places to see, scary monsters to kill, etc. I could care less if I get any “stuff” while doing so. I just want to explore the game and marvel at the beautiful zones they create. This is why we have been so excited (my son and I) with Dry Top. I hope more stuff like that keeps coming. But I’m probably in the minority

The quiet majority, probably.

Though, I’m starting to get a fix on how to extend game life a bit.

Randomness.

I don’t mean RNG rewards. I’d sooner drop a tank on my head. Tokens, yes, complete RNG, no. But I look at Diablo 3’s adventure mode as an example.

They extended the play experience on their sparse map layout by having random encounters. They could have any mobs from the game, champs with variant abilities, and a choice of difficulty. They picked “bounty” spots at random, so players have something different to do for increased rewards. When they finished a particular thread, they got a few tokens that might help get better gear.

Sweetblue Huntress.9856:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

<snip>I have made it known that I would like to see things like FoW, UW, and DoA come back. Even going as far to say that those areas should function similarly to how they did in GW1 – your party wipes, you start over. <snip>

Illuminati.2431:

I would like to see more bosses like Liadri. It required (a bit) of skill, you had to understand mechanics. You had to practice it. I never stumbled across someone who never played Liadri and finished it in one try. <snip>

When posts like these come up, I have a really hard time understanding what people mean by “end content” when they go one to describe what they want is in an old game.

So, can it be explained why things like TA Aetherblade path, Arah, Fractals aren’t being considered end-game content? Is it because the rewards don’t match the difficulty? So if TA guaranteed a particular skin like SAB…it would be worth it? If Arah and Fractals rewards were “better” (whether that be more expensive loot or more loot or unique loot), then it would be ok? So is the issue that the REWARDS are not great or is there really no “end-game” content?

In terms of bosses like Liadri….who kept on battling Liadri after defeating her and getting the mini? I have not heard of many people 1. bothering to fight her to the death and 2. fighting her again after she’s been beaten in the same year (cause maybe people tried again the second time she showed up). And on that note…what reward is there to beat Liadri except for the mini and achievement? What reward would there be to battle her again? On that same line of thinking, once the skin you wanted in SAB was obtained…what is the reward for doing it again?

I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, I sincerely don’t understand it. I ran UW and FoW maybe once each and I don’t remember what the rewards were. UW I ran with a guildie as a way to farm ecto…I do miss that.

I agree with the party wipes, dungeon over…unless someone remembered to bring rez orbs. And really, I super enjoyed mapping solo in hard mode. However, I don’t remember there being a great reward for that other than personal satisfaction and a mark done towards the achievement.

The more difficult content in GW2 : Arah, FOTM, TA:Ae path aren’t considered end-game precisely because the rewards are terrible and people don’t really feel rewarded for the experience.

End-game doesn’t just mean mastering hard content – it means mastering hard content for a reason – that reason being rewards for most players.

If rewards weren’t the reason people wouldn’t complain about the lack of hard content since you can make any content hard by imposing your own restrictions such as going naked, with no traits,etc.

The whole point of end-game is playing hard, improving, and being rewarded for it. Feeling that you’ve earned it.

Harper.4173:

The more difficult content in GW2 : Arah, FOTM, TA:Ae path aren’t considered end-game precisely because the rewards are terrible and people don’t really feel rewarded for the experience.

End-game doesn’t just mean mastering hard content – it means mastering hard content for a reason – that reason being rewards for most players.

If rewards weren’t the reason people wouldn’t complain about the lack of hard content since you can make any content hard by imposing your own restrictions such as going naked, with no traits,etc.

The whole point of end-game is playing hard, improving, and being rewarded for it. Feeling that you’ve earned it.

And it must be hard because else everyone could get those rewards, and then it no longer are “good” rewards .. and so we are again at the point that its all in the end for the bragging rights.

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

See my post above – challenge must be met by rewards in order to make the player feel accomplished and happy doing the content.

Protip: there’s nothing wrong with good and unique rewards that aren’t RNG.

@Mac, I don’t want to go into old news, but it matches a general trend. You saw it with teh SAB/dungeon feedback.

these players would rather be lied to than told the truth

That guy told the truth. ANet told the truth about SAB and new hard dungeons. People HATED it.

Harper.4173:

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

See my post above – challenge must be met by rewards in order to make the player feel accomplished and happy doing the content.

Protip: there’s nothing wrong with good and unique rewards that aren’t RNG.

Anet agrees, thus dungeon token rewards and pvp reward track rewards.

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Tasty Pudding.3764:

I call BS. You are couching this behind “I only want challenging content” when what you really want is challenging content that also provides the best rewards in the game.

Aetherpath is exactly the GW1 model. It is a challenging dungeon with rare location-specific rewards that are locked behind RNG. It is also a ghost town. “I get more loot farming somewhere else.”

You don’t want challenging content. You want challenging content with benefits.

See my post above – challenge must be met by rewards in order to make the player feel accomplished and happy doing the content.

Protip: there’s nothing wrong with good and unique rewards that aren’t RNG.

Anet agrees, thus dungeon token rewards and pvp reward track rewards.

What about FOTM RNG? 8 months for a skin?! really?

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Anet agrees, thus dungeon token rewards and pvp reward track rewards.

What about FOTM RNG? 8 months for a skin?! really?

They’re offering both paths.

Believe me I feel your pain on the Fractal rewards, but there are alternatives.

I personally think they made a mistake when they made rings for laurels possible. There’s your unique rewards (except then you’re done with it).

SkiTz.4590:

Who on earth wastes time doing challenging content that has abysmal rewards?

Theoretically, people claiming to be interested in challenging content should. If they were really interested in the challenge, that is.

Harper.4173:

End-game doesn’t just mean mastering hard content – it means mastering hard content for a reason – that reason being rewards for most players.

If rewards weren’t the reason people wouldn’t complain about the lack of hard content since you can make any content hard by imposing your own restrictions such as going naked, with no traits,etc.

The whole point of end-game is playing hard, improving, and being rewarded for it. Feeling that you’ve earned it.

Then we’re back at it separating community into haves small minority and have-nots majority. If this is the kind of endgame we’re talking about, then no, i’d rather not have any more of it in this game.

I just want new content.

The game doesn’t expand – in any direction – as much as it should.

New maps
New dungeons
New PvP
New WvWvW
New class
New race
New weapons
New skills (aside from some lame healing skills that no one uses anyway)

I don’t care if they release it as an expansion, or through LS supported by gem shop.

Without new content, my time is better invested elsewhere.

Do you think it would be ok if I quit the game now and came back later in two years jst to find out that game has expanded only by 2 new zones, 2 new sPvP maps, 3 new skills and 5 new traits (for each profession), few mini dungeons, no new WvW map and 20 Living Story missions where each mission can be done in less than 2 hours and has a mediocre sub par story compared to most single player games?

Illuminati.2431:

That’s like building a sportscar, but it is aimed to sell to grandma’s and grandpa’s that don’t drive harder than 100km/h.

I love this guy’s comments.

Serbianwolf.1652:

Illuminati.2431:

That’s like building a sportscar, but it is aimed to sell to grandma’s and grandpa’s that don’t drive harder than 100km/h.

I love this guy’s comments.

It’s more like sticker-racers complaining they’re not building Lotus Evora’s for them, really.

Astralporing.1957:

Then we’re back at it separating community into haves small minority and have-nots majority. If this is the kind of endgame we’re talking about, then no, i’d rather not have any more of it in this game.

People who do things will always have more than people who don’t. And it’s only logical that people who achieve harder content get better reward.
There’s no other kind of endgame than more content to play. Harder and diverse content will always be needed because people get better the more they play. This is inevitable.

Beldin.5498:

Seera.5916:

Yea, there is a group of us that does want challenging content but don’t need guaranteed better loot to get us to do it. For some of us, completing the challenging content and being able to say I did it, is reward enough. We’re likely not a very big group and probably include both hardcore and casual players to some degree.

But that is the problem in an MMO where content should be played more than once.
Extreme had content is sometimes nice when you beat it, but then you may say :
ok .. great i’ve done that .. but never ever again.

To say it clear : yes .. MMO endgame is always a kind of farm / grind where you do
repeat the same stuff again and again .. and mostly its better if you get better rewards
in shorter time.

Now the call for more challenge in the end always leads to the problem that people
think they are sooo much better players and for that reason they deserve to get
either “exclusive” stuff that 95% of the playerbase will never ever have a chance to get,
or simply they want at least to get significant more loot so that they can achieve
everything much faster than the rest of the players.

Like I said, there is a small portion of us players that do not care what things give out in terms of rewards. Yes, there is a point where challenging content isn’t challenging at all. And if nothing else that’s challenging for us is there, we’ll go do something else, be it in GW2 or not. But it’s not because it doesn’t offer a reward. Now if we have Choice A and Choice B and they’re equally challenging and fun to us, then yea, the reward would likely be the deciding factor, but it’s not our top priority. Being challenged and having fun are our top priorities. And getting rewarded doesn’t factor much into either challenging or fun for us.

And those of us casuals who don’t care about rewards will likely find challenging things challenging for a good long while. Because we either don’t have the time or the desire to really become super efficient or follow the meta.

There is end-game.

Ascended gear/items
Legendaries
Map Completion (hearts, poi’s, vistas)
WvW/EotM (ranks)
SPvP/Tournaments (ranks)
Personal/Living Story
Ranks/Achievements
Dungeons/Fractals
World Bosses/Events (Teq & Wurm specific skins)
Exploration/Jumping Puzzles
Dailies/Monthly

All these are for level 80. Some of them have been neglected more than others, but end-game is there. There is even gear progression. Ascended items are the best stats in game.

Let’s look at more traditional MMOs now, and see their end-game.

Gear progression (comes with expansions and raised level cap)
Dungeons/Raids
PvP
Achievements
Dailies
Expansions?? (zones, quests, gear, etc.)
(can’t think of anything else)

The difference between the two, is the pace at which content comes out for max level characters. In Season 1, most of the content was temporary, but in Season 2, it’s more permanent. In traditional MMOs, expansions take a longer time to come out, but when they do, they create another round of end-game content for max-level characters.

In Dry Top, there are weapon skins, kites, crafting recipes, and other loot from chests. There are also achievements for Living Story (which should’ve included a meta-reward like the previous LS). There is the Mawdrey Ascended back-piece to work towards also. Imagine if Season 1 was more permanent. We’d have even more end-game content to do.

So yeah, if none of the above satisfies a player for end-game content, then they will think there isn’t any, but in reality there is. I’m not the biggest Anet fanboy, but i always see these complaints in every MMO community. End-game is there, it’s just not what you want.

Beldin.5498:

And it must be hard because else everyone could get those rewards, and then it no longer are “good” rewards .. and so we are again at the point that its all in the end for the bragging rights.

Chiming in too.
You seem to think bragging rights are a bad thing to have in a game but it is something most games are geared towards, half the reason for achievements are a “look what I did”.

Unique rewards for challenging content are the bragging rights and you’re right people want both as one without the other is not worth much. There is nothing wrong with that however to continue on the car analogy everyone’s running with , a formula 1 driver is not going to drive for petty cash, he’s getting paid millions,gets a unique trophy if he wins etc.

I feel it’s acceptable that there be content to a high degree of difficulty that it allows people to sort themselves in regards to where they stand vs the rest of the player-base, you can complete it? congratulations you’re a top player and here is the reward you justly earned it. Now try this even harder piece of content for another unique reward. You know just like every single real world sport/game/hobby in existence? Think of it as competitive Pve with the unique skins as trophies for the winners.

And as I’ve previously posted many times:
Conski’s conditions for challenging content:
-The unique reward must be account bound and only obtainable through the activity, otherwise the prestige of the item is unverifiable.
-The content should be genuinely challenging, i.e a person using a guide should not be able to breeze through it, no one time gimmick puzzles, completion should be a reflection on the players reflexes, teamwork, timing and prove as challenging on repeated runs.
-Conditions should be controllable, by this I mean if a player fails they should know why and it was due to their own error. This is why Teq and Wurm are not spectacular examples of challenge content as you can fail due to bystanders or trolls taking over turrets or messing up timing, where you would not have chosen to have them on your team.
-It should not be possible for any member of a team to be carried through the content, each person must contribute substantially, this is why I feel small group content would work best and to prevent run selling.
-Glitches should be dealt with harshly and rapidly, for an example the moment the life-steal glitch was discovered on Liandri the content should have been disabled immediately till it was fixed, not left for two weeks. I’ve seen games disable content for loopholes like that in minutes before.

So, let me get this straight:

You want fractals.

WoW also had extremely well made and engaging encounters. Blizzard was good at making players work as a team, even with mechanics that work independent of the holy trinity.

Illuminati.2431:

Astralporing.1957:

Illuminati.2431:

That’s like building a sportscar, but it is aimed to sell to grandma’s and grandpa’s that don’t drive harder than 100km/h.

No, that’s like building an economy car for city commuting, and some people protesting that this car doesn’t allow them to drive at 200km/h. It doesn’t , because it isn’t a sports car.

No.
The standarized expectations for an economy city car is NOT to drive 200km/h.

But the standarized expactations for an MMO is that is actually has something rewarding/challenging etc. to do once you hit max level.

Those expectations are only made stronger if your version 1 of the game(Guild wars 1) actually had them.

I think it’s worth noting that standardized play in MMO’s seems like a really weak reason to adopt a new game so not likely to be a goal of devs trying to make a game to take marketshare. It’s also worth noting that appealing to LCD of players makes money and appealing to smaller niche of players makes less money than that.

What I would LIKE to see is a game mode a player can select between; the standard LCD game level and another level of something harder. Still, I doubt this will happen in GW2 because they hit some sort of winning formula with the game. Appealing to the type of player you are talking about for end game strays from that winning formula.

TLDR: The business model and it’s success directs the game to ‘average’ challenge.

Windsagio.1340:

@Mac, I don’t want to go into old news, but it matches a general trend. You saw it with teh SAB/dungeon feedback.

these players would rather be lied to than told the truth

That guy told the truth. ANet told the truth about SAB and new hard dungeons. People HATED it.

It is impossible to know whether “That guy” told the truth or not as proof was never presented.

All we know is he no longer works for Turbine.

He created a nasty divide between the community.

Much like the title of this thread is doing. Its bad for the community, its bad for the game.

These games need to provide content for everyone, not just one play style or the other, or a toxic atmosphere arises.

Mac.3872:

These games need to provide content for everyone, not just one play style or the other, or a toxic atmosphere arises.

I don’t want to usually make a big deal of it, but I work for a (non-mmo) developer. As far as game development decisions go, it makes sense. You get fired for creating a PR disaster, but that doesn’t mean you lied.

I’m firmly convinced that low player participation in Fractals and Aether Path has left Anet feeling that the vast majority of players have no interest in doing that content. In the GW case, it’s probably substantially less than 10%, probably less than 1% for aether. Given that, they appear to be making the right decision to not invest a lot of resources into game modes that most players don’t care about, even a little bit.

In the current state of GW2, it makes sense to drive people who want ‘skilled’ play towards pvp, and other people towards a broad range of content. Catering to a micro-minority (as showable by analytics no doubt, or they’d be acting differently) because that’s the traditional MMO model is silly at best.

All it means is that they didn’t design dungeons correctly to begin with.

If the content was fun and engaging, people would be doing it.

honestly forget about the aetherblade path. the dungeon design along with the combat in dungeon is quite poorly done to begin with. (ya I agree with the person above me).

ipan.4356:

All it means is that they didn’t design dungeons correctly to begin with.

If the content was fun and engaging, people would be doing it.

Yeah, no one is doing dungeons >< and the ones that are do it because they hate it and are completely disengaged.

Obtena.7952:

ipan.4356:

All it means is that they didn’t design dungeons correctly to begin with.

If the content was fun and engaging, people would be doing it.

Yeah, no one is doing dungeons ><

the casual people is still doing dungeons.

most of the people are farming/grinding.

they’ll be out there in no time if they find a better way to make money/empyreal fragment.

laokoko.7403:

Obtena.7952:

ipan.4356:

All it means is that they didn’t design dungeons correctly to begin with.

If the content was fun and engaging, people would be doing it.

Yeah, no one is doing dungeons ><

the casual people is still doing dungeons.

most of the people are farming/grinding.

So people ARE doing dungeons? They are and they aren’t? I love the flippy floppy arguments people use to make their points.