Guild Wars 2

dlonie.6547:

Dromar.1027:

When did you ever get the notion I was a RPer? Turns out I zerk farm.

dlonie.6547:

(I’m using the term “RP” very loosely here — I mean anyone who wants to run a homemade build and “experience” the dungeon instead of just farm it…not just full-time RP’rs.)

Should have edited instead of making a new post.

If you zerk farm, then I missed the point of your post:

Dromar.1027:

The meta is flawed as a game that is supposed to be enjoyable for a demographic much larger then those that only care about their virtual wallet. When a large part of the player base is forced to kitten themselves heavily with armor that is supposed to be top tier just so they can have fun its a huge failure on the part of the development team.

(emphasis mine)
I took this to mean “Why do I need to have zerk gear to have fun running dungeons?”, but if you enjoy farming dungeons, zerk is your best friend. Perhaps you can clarify for me?

Because I am someone who likes farming and complex team composition. However I also like efficiency and all of it is more than possible to accomplish with whats in GW2 atm. If things change to the point a dungeon is slower than all that is needed is a reward tweak to compensate.

The problem with zerker isnt that it exists, its that the game unintentionally favors it. In fact Anet never saw this coming because they underestimated the resourcefulness of the players base along with bad mob AI and design.

I even dare say zerker is easier for me to play than any other build.

But they didn’t, dungeon forum brothers, someone please summon the dev quote saying they were fully aware that well run groups would glass up.

Thing is at this point we’re well past the point that “well run” means much more than “has been playing dungeons for a few weeks and learned exactly what to do.”

I do find your comment about getting rid of swiftness quite interesting. “the game would feel slower”, yup, exactly, same goes for if they made zerker bad.

Jerus.4350:

But they didn’t, dungeon forum brothers, someone please summon the dev quote saying they were fully aware that well run groups would glass up.

Thing is at this point we’re well past the point that “well run” means much more than “has been playing dungeons for a few weeks and learned exactly what to do.”

I do find your comment about getting rid of swiftness quite interesting. “the game would feel slower”, yup, exactly, same goes for if they made zerker bad.

Got it!

dlonie.6547:

Guest.8245:

What reasons did I miss for zerker only being fine?

Short answer:

Stale content is the problem, not that we’ve figured out how to do it without passive defenses after doing the exact same fights for going-on 3 years.

This, really. Zerk meta evolved in dungeons. Once someone has done the same encounter dozens of times they don’t typically need sturdier armor.

What the ‘zerk only’ crowd forgets is that people didn’t start out using zerk in dungeons because noone knew how to do them. There are times when non-zerk is a good idea; specifically when the content is unknown or less predictable.

Personally I don’t use zerk on SW event maps anymore because the random spawn waves have enough varied mechanics, high damage and high HP that it’s more effective to wear something else.

Dromar.1027:

Because I am someone who likes farming and complex team composition. However I also like efficiency and all of it is more than possible to accomplish with whats in GW2 atm. If things change to the point a dungeon is slower than all that is needed is a reward tweak to compensate.

The problem with zerker isnt that it exists, its that the game unintentionally favors it. In fact Anet never saw this coming because they underestimated the resourcefulness of the players base along with bad mob AI and design.

More complex gameplay and challenging party mechanics would certainly be nice. Foolish as it is, I do still have a shred of hope that we’ll see some sort of instanced small-group content with more “second generation” combat mechanics in HoT. dreams

I just don’t see what gear stats have to do with it. As it is, if you want a tankier build, you retrait more defensively. If you need personal DPS, you trait for it — another retrait for party support. All can be done in berserker gear and alter your character’s role.

Why should it be more than that? What advantage would changing all of your gear to X spec really add? As it is, changing traits really does change gameplay; it alters the actual mechanics at your disposal. Changing gear just gives you stats and clutter.

Arcadio.6875:

Jerus.4350:

But they didn’t, dungeon forum brothers, someone please summon the dev quote saying they were fully aware that well run groups would glass up.

Thing is at this point we’re well past the point that “well run” means much more than “has been playing dungeons for a few weeks and learned exactly what to do.”

I do find your comment about getting rid of swiftness quite interesting. “the game would feel slower”, yup, exactly, same goes for if they made zerker bad.

Got it!

I miss that guy =(

GreyWraith.8394:

dlonie.6547:

Guest.8245:

What reasons did I miss for zerker only being fine?

Short answer:

Stale content is the problem, not that we’ve figured out how to do it without passive defenses after doing the exact same fights for going-on 3 years.

This, really. Zerk meta evolved in dungeons. Once someone has done the same encounter dozens of times they don’t typically need sturdier armor.

What the ‘zerk only’ crowd forgets is that people didn’t start out using zerk in dungeons because noone knew how to do them. There are times when non-zerk is a good idea; specifically when the content is unknown or less predictable.

Personally I don’t use zerk on SW event maps anymore because the random spawn waves have enough varied mechanics, high damage and high HP that it’s more effective to wear something else.

That is true.

When tequatl was re-done people were advising to use zerk (support), clerics (turrets) and PVT (tequatl).

Now everyone knows how to do it so everyone can wear zerk.

But that just confirms that Zerk is the elite armor that you switch to once you know what you are doing.

dlonie.6547:

Arcadio.6875:

Jerus.4350:

But they didn’t, dungeon forum brothers, someone please summon the dev quote saying they were fully aware that well run groups would glass up.

Thing is at this point we’re well past the point that “well run” means much more than “has been playing dungeons for a few weeks and learned exactly what to do.”

I do find your comment about getting rid of swiftness quite interesting. “the game would feel slower”, yup, exactly, same goes for if they made zerker bad.

Got it!

I miss that guy =(

yeah

And I have to point out, posted at least a year before he was fired, so quite some time ago they were well aware of zerk being an option. , and Thanks Arcadio.

Still waiting for the gear inspect option. That will be the only thing that splits the two groups, as they should be split anyway.

dlonie.6547:

Dromar.1027:

Because I am someone who likes farming and complex team composition. However I also like efficiency and all of it is more than possible to accomplish with whats in GW2 atm. If things change to the point a dungeon is slower than all that is needed is a reward tweak to compensate.

The problem with zerker isnt that it exists, its that the game unintentionally favors it. In fact Anet never saw this coming because they underestimated the resourcefulness of the players base along with bad mob AI and design.

More complex gameplay and challenging party mechanics would certainly be nice. Foolish as it is, I do still have a shred of hope that we’ll see some sort of instanced small-group content with more “second generation” combat mechanics in HoT. dreams

I just don’t see what gear stats have to do with it. As it is, if you want a tankier build, you retrait more defensively. If you need personal DPS, you trait for it — another retrait for party support. All can be done in berserker gear and alter your character’s role.

Why should it be more than that? What advantage would changing all of your gear to X spec really add? As it is, changing traits really does change gameplay; it alters the actual mechanics at your disposal. Changing gear just gives you stats and clutter.

That’s the thing about the rest of the stats, they don’t do hardly anything compared to what berserker offers. Namely toughness and combing it with Vit is just a kick in the balls to dps.

You know after reading that devs post something makes me think were missing a lot of the story.

Have you seen the Clerics gear Mossman/Lupi kills? It does plenty. In fact look up Skady’s Cleric’s Fractal videos, I’m actually quite impressed and if I had more motivation I’d want to grab a set on my Guard just to carry groups with it, because I’m just not good enough to tank like that with zerker/knight.

Hybrid builds or even PVT builds just don’t have the recovery time to really be worth it. Sure you may be able to take more hits, but you can’t recover to take another fast enough to be worth it. You can push yourself from say 1 kick = death on a thief/ele agaisnt Lupi to 2 kicks by using some Valkyrie, then with healing you can push yourself to 3 kicks = death while your healing skill is up, but to get to 4 kicks = death you’re going to need quite a big step, meaning you drop a lot of damage.

Of course, the thing is, you don’t need these other tactics, you can go zerk, and especially if you execute perfectly, well you’re not going to have any issues. And even in zerk you can take safety nets in traits/utilities/weapons, like extra blocks, dodges, evades, or even some more potent heal skills for some professions.

So yeah, not every gear set really has any effective use, but there is more than zerker, but it’s just that zerker is best if you can pull it off, hands down (well and assassin/sinister, so I should say Glass).

Dromar.1027:

That’s the thing about the rest of the stats, they don’t do hardly anything compared to what berserker offers.

Sure they do. Watch that video I posted a page back of the Clerics warrior soloing Lupi. Clerics offers healing power and toughness, and it’s very clear that his survivability was increased, along with defensive traiting. Considering how hard some of those hits land, I’d call that build OP in a sense.

Of course, that solo is 58 minutes long, compared with comparable zerk solos that are in the 5-6 minute range. But he hardly needed to dodge the entire fight — the stats did what they said on the tin quite well. Berserkers gear deals huge damage with little-to-no tolerance for mistakes, as it should.

Namely toughness and combing it with Vit is just a kick in the balls to dps.

Shouldn’kitten though? Should a character that in Soldiers do similar DPS as a Berserker? Of course it’s going to be less.

Were talking about full teams doing full runs, not soloing lupi and berserker gear = stand in corner and pew pew #noskillreq

They can make the stats do more than what they already do like influence those static boons.

Sube Dai.8496:

…
But that just confirms that Zerk is the elite armor that you switch to once you know what you are doing.

My point was that this is only true when the content is both well known AND sufficiently static.

Anet only have themselves to thank for the zerker meta. Upgrading or tweaking conditions won’t change it either. They need to look long and hard at mob AI, and offering more in the way of mechanics. Giant meatshield mobs won’t fix it either.

There’s a discrepancy here. Opponents of the meta insist that survival gear does nothing. Advocates of the meta say that survival gear does plenty. What is the source of the difference? Could it be that those who try survival gear are not going all-out into survival, and expecting the passive stats to carry them? Are they in fact using a hybrid build — which by definition does multiple things, but not as well as an extreme damage or extreme survival build. GW2 PvE design favors extreme builds, of that I have no doubt. But what dungeon meta, anywhere, favors hybrid gear choices?

Now maybe there’s a different reason for the different experiences, but I’m not sure what that would be.

Dromar.1027:

Were talking about full teams doing full runs, not soloing lupi and berserker gear = stand in corner and pew pew #noskillreq

They can make the stats do more than what they already do like influence those static boons.

Yeah, that’s true for a lot of the lower level content now, though AC was a very different place before the NPE and ferocity changes. These days it’s unbelievably trivial for any decent group, regardless of gear choice.

But in higher level content I still notice a decent boost to survivability between, say, zerk gear and knights, especially on e.g. thief. Things are trivialized there by familiarity and, tbh, Deep Freeze.

Let’s hope for something worthwhile in HoT.

Dromar.1027:

Were talking about full teams doing full runs, not soloing lupi and berserker gear = stand in corner and pew pew #noskillreq

They can make the stats do more than what they already do like influence those static boons.

Statements like that make me think you’ve never done Lupi or higher level dungeons/fractals. But, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, I don’t like calling people out that I don’t know (heck not even those I know ) but if you are experienced in that content you know what you’re stating is quite the exaggeration.

Have you seen this though? Quite entertaining if you ask me, the video, not doing it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8mBbr5llJQ

Zerg gear is not the problem its the easy PVE that get easier with more damage you have.

Here’s the answer. Make it based on traits. The first trait in each line determines what stat you should be stacking. For example ele:

If you spec into earth it will convert 50% of toughness to power making you want to put on toughness armor. If you spec into water it converts 50% of vitality to power. If you spec air it increases precision by 50% etc.

So if you spec air water and earth you will want precision toughness vitality armor.

More emphasis on gear over base stats. Might have to rebalance parts of the game to deal with higher stats but it would do the job.

Imho there are huge differences in game experience which lead to different opinions about roles in GW2. There are roles in GW2. Mightstacking, Stealth, blinds etc.
Experienced groups got those roles and experience some teamplay. PS-Warr is a role.

There are games with a tank, healer, dps – fixed roles. But Games like GW (1) got no fixed roles (ritu, ele, necro, derwish could heal, too) and a lot of active defence – and no tanks. GW2 roles are a bit weaker – and imho Anet should improve these roles – make a PS-Warrior stronger in increasing team-dps for example.

A huge difference between GW2 and GW is: you can’t heal yourself without having to “trait” your selfheal. You can heal yourself, but you have to sacrifice a lot of personal dmg to get a mediocre selfheal. So its more effective to concentrate on a task: heal or do dmg. Of course some classes/builds did both. So maybe an option to give up your selfheal and do more dmg would be good in GW2, too.

Roles add diversity and complexity to the gameplay. Playing as a healer is a complete different feeling then beeing dps. GW2 roles feel very similar, if a dungeon bores me, I can’t switch to another class and play the same dungeon again since it feels the same.

Roles are also helping bad players. You let them run a simple role (usually dps). If they do a misstake another player is able to compensate it. In GW1: when the ele was standing in AOE and didn’t move out a healer could save him. These interactions help to bring good and bad players together. An Ele could blind a Ranger to avoid dmg and help the healer. GW2 has very limited options to help others players out. There are skills like aegis – but they are only good on a high level. If your running with a low dps group and are not able to use your aegis properly it might only avoid like 100 dmg.
So some stronger easy to use supportskills would be helpfull, too.
Blindspam is imho in a good spot, or WoR and condiremove. Maybe buff guardians “aegis spam” traitline? Those new guardian eliteskills might also go into the right direction.

Imho Zerk is a problem. Not because its the best equip or everything gets easy. But because of a huge dmg gap. Most skills, attacks of enemies will work over time. Boss XY is attacking every X seconds. Not every X dmg dealt. So Zerk reduces enemies to only a few attacks or can break whole game mechaniks. Which is bad gamedesign. You can kill clockwork in aether without pulling a holo or by maybe one or two only. So you can skip the “difficult” part by doing enough dmg. Solution could be to add special attacks/mechaniks to health status so a low dps group has to pull the holo not like 500 times. But I’d prefer to reduce the dmg gap by adding more dmg to defensive builds. Zerk should be, ofc, dps king.

Healing is not good in GW2 because you need dmg. Dmg is more important than everything else. Healing is helpfull, ok. But you don’t want to sacrifice too much dmg for something only helpfull.

Imho:
GW2 won’t change. But I’ve read many suggestions which would work in the current system without turning a “no trinity” system into a trinity.
I don’t care about balancing, this are only some thoughts I’ve read somewhere. They are no final solution, they need balancing, some might be bad ideas:
-add a healsignet which increases your dmg by 33% but won’t heal you. So a healer would be helpfull: you could increase group dps with 4 guys running this signet and a healer.
-add runes which turns healing power/toughness into dmg. So a fullcleric ends at – for example – 80-90% dmg of a fullberserk. Such a healer would be good instead of one low-dps healer. Same goes for tanky equipment like soldier: close the dmg gap. Sideeffect: bosses are easier to balance when everyone got a more similar amount of dmg.
-sharpen roles. Remove “small amount mightstacking” and add special traits to bring might. An good example for such an actual existing role is PS-Warr. Do the same for conditions (no conditions if not traited for condis, maybe even vuln!). Increase the effects of those roles. For example increase power which might gives. Increase those passive buffs (atm +150 power/toughness etc. – maybe 500? dunno). Reduce “health spam” like lifeleechbuffood and add shouts etc. triggering similar effects.
-fix condidmg, add object dmg to condi-dmg. Add skills removing condis from enemies and doing dmg for removed condis. Add Skills to powerbuilds/lines doing more dmg when target has more conditions. Reduce “accidental” conditionspam when not running a condibuild.
—>you got some “soft” roles in GW2 which feel different. You can support each other better. But a good group would still go for 5 fullzerk. Or maybe 4 fullzerk and a healer. Or 3 fullzerk, a healer and a condispam whatever. Gameplay would still be actionoriented, still dodge>> all, no tank&spank and stuff.

Killface.1896:

Zerg gear is not the problem its the easy PVE that get easier with more damage you have.

Not really, AC, yes, CM sure if you have the understanding of the dungeon, TA, ehh bringing support can make it a lot easier, SE with reflects yeah zerker makes it quite easy, after that I don’t really agree. Maybe if you run a crappy hybrid build that doens’t really add much survivability and just lowers your damage. Once you get to Arah/HOTW/Fractals, no, extra survivability adds up quickly to makes things much easier. I mean even the WvW bonus plays a part in how easy thief/ele play in Arah, some one shots become 2 shots just from the WvW bonus, a bit of Valkyrie gear alone would do the same thing.

What makes PVE easy is that we’ve destroyed everything, and with experience you can utilize active defenses to get through most any content… that’s kind of how they designed the game, which is why the OP’s comments are 100% correct. The game is designed to be possible in zerk gear, doesnt’ meant it’s easy, just means it’s doable, you still have to be well above average to complete all PVE content in zerk gear.

Everyone who thinks PvE is easy should really just do an “easy” CM run with four people who have never been there before.

It can be any other dungeon anyway, the point is, while open world PvE is total kiddo stuff, dungeons can fail easily if you don’t have certain “support” for encounters. But whatever, there will be a thread asking for a solution to the zerker meta tomorrow too.

Astralporing.1957:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Maybe we are just coming to the conclusion that going no-trinity was a mistake all along.

Nope. The problem lies not in the no-trinity approach (which actually didn’t originally mean neither “all dps” nor “whatever is okay”, by the way). It lies with the active combat system not being a good fit for the gear stat system designed. Both things are meant for different games – they just don’t work too well together.

This is is completely the case. (The last bit, about combat system and gear stat system. Trinity or no trinity is up for debate.)

To quickly summarise:

GW2 Combat does have role diversity. You have Straight-DPS, Offensive Support, Defensive Support, and Control. Each class has ways to contribute like this. Each role requires active input. Combat is about active play.

Of the above roles, there is ONE link where your role scales from your gear. Zerkers increases DPS. No gear increases your active offensive support, defensive support, or control. There is 0 point to putting points into Toughness because your defensive needs are filled by active defenses anyway. And this needs to stay like this or some levels of tankiness become mandatory. Which has already been marked as something to stay away from, for good reason.

Those who argue that off-zerker gearsets is “Not Optimal” but is “Still Viable” – this is a load of crock. The difference between a 6 min clear and a 56 min clear in a goal/reward-driven game is severe enough to classify the 56 min clear build as “not viable”. The difference between optimal and not optimal should be more in the ballpark of 6 mins vs 8~10 mins.

The answer is, I believe, this: Non-DPS related stats need to be associated with active abilities. You can buff toughness as much as you like but it still won’t have any merit if you can just dodge everything. Instead;

1) Link Healing Power with Boon Duration. Rename the stat “Compassion”.
- Party “Support” comes in more cases than not through the form of boons. Might, Fury, Swiftness can add significant clear times on
- As HP is Linked to Boon Duration, drastically nerf the duration of most boons. I mean like 0 Boon Duration = 8 seconds of might from blasting fire fields, Phal strength = 3s of might.
- Aim is for a situation where players can choose between maximising their personal DPS, or can aim for maximising party DPS by maintaining might/fury stacks. There needs to be a forced choice in this.

2) Link Toughness with CC effect
- Scale duration/effect of crowd control skills with the player’s investment in toughness. Pulls have longer range, knockdowns/daze apply for longer, and maybe immobilize and chill last longer too. I’m undecided on the control-based conditions atm but I think would be worth it.
- Alternatively have toughness reduce cooldown timers of CC skills.
- Higher toughness investment means you burn multiple stacks of defiance off per CC skill
- Higher toughness means you do more damage to the HoT “Defiance Bars”.
- Give bosses Defiance bars which require heavy CC investment to break through, and reward teams that break through these bars with longer duration Burn Phases.
- You could conceivably have multiple “tiers” of defiance bars, so there is one present during the burn phase with a higher requirement. If destroyed, it elongates the burn phase.
- Fastest clear speed should be through a “balanced” mix of control vs flat DPS. Parties could load up on CC skills/traits (Daze Mesmers), or run very toughness-heavy characters to achieve the same effect. Or both and one person is all your CC needs.

3) Vitality
- Don’t know what to do with Vitality lel.
- Option 1: Vitality is a counterbalance to Toughness and reduces CC duration on you. This means you need to bring less stunbreak/stability in your utilities and can focus more on other things. It also means toughness doesn’t break PvP because you can spec against it.

- Option 2: Vitality increases duration/effectiveness of active defensive support (Wall of Reflection). I think this is messy.

- Option 3: Any other ideas people have.

serenke.4806:

Everyone who thinks PvE is easy should really just do an “easy” CM run with four people who have never been there before.

It can be any other dungeon anyway, the point is, while open world PvE is total kiddo stuff, dungeons can fail easily if you don’t have certain “support” for encounters. But whatever, there will be a thread asking for a solution to the zerker meta tomorrow too.

Totally agree on your point, though 1/3 CM paths can be pretty easily soloed on thief doing Invigorating precision S/P pistol whip spam on thief So there are ways around the difficulty if you know what you’re doing. But if you want to actually carry your pugs through it, yeah it can get quite frustrating as they fail stealth skips and just generally screw you up. Took a couple fresh players through it a while back, most not even level 80, and yeah… an hour later we finished path 1 They had a lot of fun, I learned the power of thief in that path and got frustrated as I had to keep waypointing back to help them through the stealths, but was glad to do it, teaching people is rewarding in it’s own ways.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

cthaeh.2168:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

Guest.8245:

What reasons did I miss for zerker only being fine?

Short answer:

Stale content is the problem, not that we’ve figured out how to do it without passive defenses after doing the exact same fights for going-on 3 years.

That’s a terrible point actually.

WoW has existed for more than 10 years and it has always had tanks, healers and nukers in every dungeon, even the ones that are old.

LoL/DoTa, just to mention an example that isn’t a MMORPG, have been going for a long time as well, and it is unthinkable to have a full nuker party. Suggesting so would get you ridiculed.

The zerk meta exists because of poor gear balancing. If tanks were a lot tankier and had a taunt (while doing much less damage), and if monsters did much more damage, it would force team setups to have tanks and nukers.

Maybe you should post this on the WoW or LoL forums where it would actually be relevant.

You just didn’t understand. You are saying that the reason the glasscanon meta exists in GW2 is because people know the game too well. I’m saying that your statement is false. To prove that it’s false, I’m mentionning WoW and LoL as examples, where people know the dungeons/maps/gameplay by perfection and still use standard nuker/tank/healer setups.

If your logic that knowing the game by perfection led to glasscannon builds held any ground, then by now all MMOs that are older than GW2 should have glasscannon only metas, but we both know that is wrong.

Your comparison doesn’t make any sense. I’ll let you figure out by yourself on why that is.

fellyn.5083:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

cthaeh.2168:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

dlonie.6547:

Guest.8245:

What reasons did I miss for zerker only being fine?

Short answer:

Stale content is the problem, not that we’ve figured out how to do it without passive defenses after doing the exact same fights for going-on 3 years.

That’s a terrible point actually.

WoW has existed for more than 10 years and it has always had tanks, healers and nukers in every dungeon, even the ones that are old.

LoL/DoTa, just to mention an example that isn’t a MMORPG, have been going for a long time as well, and it is unthinkable to have a full nuker party. Suggesting so would get you ridiculed.

The zerk meta exists because of poor gear balancing. If tanks were a lot tankier and had a taunt (while doing much less damage), and if monsters did much more damage, it would force team setups to have tanks and nukers.

Maybe you should post this on the WoW or LoL forums where it would actually be relevant.

You just didn’t understand. You are saying that the reason the glasscanon meta exists in GW2 is because people know the game too well. I’m saying that your statement is false. To prove that it’s false, I’m mentionning WoW and LoL as examples, where people know the dungeons/maps/gameplay by perfection and still use standard nuker/tank/healer setups.

If your logic that knowing the game by perfection led to glasscannon builds held any ground, then by now all MMOs that are older than GW2 should have glasscannon only metas, but we both know that is wrong.

Your comparison doesn’t make any sense. I’ll let you figure out by yourself on why that is.

Well you’ll have to explain yourself if that is what you believe, not throw some passive aggressive comment at the discussion and expect me to agree with you.

Someone else was asking earlier if I had ever seen a no-trinity MMORPG that used active abilities as much as GW2, and come to think of it, I did – Vindictus. It doesn’t even have auto attacks, it has the mechanics of a fighting game like Tekken or Mortal Kombat integrated in a MMO. And, not surprisingly, there are no gear choices at all in Vindictus. Probably because the devs knew it would end in the same stagnating scenario we are seeing today in GW2.

GW2 either has to get rid of armor sets in PvE and have it all depend on traits, or fully embrace the trinity concept and improve the gear sets. Someone else said that this isn’t working because GW2 has both the armor sets and the active gameplay and is failing at getting both worlds, and I think that is absolutely correct.

The fact is that the community has been given 25 armor sets to work with (and here I’m specifically talking about gear, which is the topic of this thread, not traits), and in 3 years it has failed to produce a meta extending beyond “zerk meta”, in PvE. It doesn’t matter if other gear sets are viable or not, you need to remember that a majority of the people we are dealing with are not creative, story-mode loving players. The majority of them are second-grade farmers who repeat the same dungeon 1000 times, skip all cutscenes, have no idea who Logan Thackeray or Rytlock Brimstone are, and will stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that there’s a problem with gear balancing in game – because they know that balancing gear would deal a blow to their beloved speedruns for a while.

there is 2 things: zerker meta…

Meta is the present most powerfull build this will be changed by the tyrait system so the zerk meta will shift,

Zerk is the gear set with stats being the highest DPS in game atm, while you do not run considerable risk one must say zerk is king and will stay king until people are FORCED to play something different.
This can be done either by removing active defense, de facto destroying the game and requiring reintroduction of the base trinity
OR
This can be done by making zerk no longer the highest DPS ingame. This could be done by raising -ARMOR- all over the game. It would fix everything.. lowering DPS and upping the importance of DOT which IGNORES ARMOR.
The only stat currentlky able to take it’s place would be condi dmg. either dire, rabid or any main condi armor.
this would automatically shift the better part of the game into high toughness gear destroying any DPS meta. Leaving a few radicals with sinister rampager and carrion.

While highest condition damage is easiliy achieved by using dire and undead runes, this is not automatically the highest DOT build. It might seem to be, but as DOT is heavily influenced by condition duration (each % of condition duration adds quite a lot to your base DOT (Cause it functions like being a critical damage trait being always active…)) condition duration will be very important as well… You will need a very high condition dmg to get double or triple base DPS in condition dmghe, but you can add 50-100% by using just some food and runes.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

there is 2 things: zerker meta…

Meta is the present most powerfull build this will be changed by the tyrait system so the zerk meta will shift,

Zerk is the gear set with stats being the highest DPS in game atm, while you do not run considerable risk one must say zerk is king and will stay king until people are FORCED to play something different.
This can be done either by removing active defense, de facto destroying the game and requiring reintroduction of the base trinity
OR
This can be done by making zerk no longer the highest DPS ingame. This could be done by raising -ARMOR- all over the game. It would fix everything.. lowering DPS and upping the importance of DOT which IGNORES ARMOR.
The only stat currentlky able to take it’s place would be condi dmg. either dire, rabid or any main condi armor.
this would automatically shift the better part of the game into high toughness gear destroying any DPS meta. Leaving a few radicals with sinister rampager and carrion.

While highest condition damage is easiliy achieved by using dire and undead runes, this is not automatically the highest DOT build. It might seem to be, but as DOT is heavily influenced by condition duration (each % of condition duration adds quite a lot to your base DOT (Cause it functions like being a critical damage trait being always active…)) condition duration will be very important as well… You will need a very high condition dmg to get double or triple base DPS in condition dmghe, but you can add 50-100% by using just some food and runes.

The new traits will have zero impact on the meta…

The only thing that might make a difference is the increase of the condition cap, whereby having one condi spamming class in a party may be optimal for some bosses (high HP pool).

Or you can accept the current system because it’s fine? Your gear decides what kind of damage you will deal (condition, direct or none because nomads) and the difficulty setting. Besides, everybody knows half of the gear types were deliberately added to troll us when we get an ascended chest/ring drop.

Quite funny everybody calls the pve metagame ‘zerk meta’ while weapons, runes, sigils, traits and utilities are far more important choices than the stats on your gear, unless you wear nomads. Also, asassins is most optimal for some classes, sinister gear with givers weapons can be most optimal for some classes in solo situations and there are niche uses for knights gear.

There will always be a meta. Period.

You nerf the zerk armor and then another set takes the meta place. It’s like this in every MMO, hardcore players will always find an optimal build/gear to clear the PvE content.

PvP is a different matter, but even there you have gear metas like celestial or w.e for some professions.

The problem with GW2 is that there’s no holy trinity, and so gear sets with +heal or +toughness are not that appealing in a system where even the rewards are given based on how much damage you do (bronze, silver, gold).

+heal or + toughness are not appealing because you won’t take damage if you play properly. In parties with less experienced players both stats are valuable because being able to coplete the content at a slower pace is better than dying all the time.

If you think playing in berserker gear is too easy then i’ll gladly invite you to an arah or fotm 50 run because you and I both know you’re full of kitten. On the off chance you actually are able to run those dungeons in berserker gear, without finding it challenging I suggest you find yourself another game because I doubt anet will develop anything more challenging.

We know there will always be a meta. We want a Balanced meta, where multiple roles or gears are equally viable. This is not the case in current GW2 PvE.

petyr baelish.9675:

Or you can accept the current system because it’s fine? Your gear decides what kind of damage you will deal (condition, direct or none because nomads) and the difficulty setting. Besides, everybody know half of the gear types were deliberately added to troll us when we get an ascended chest/ring drop.

Quite funny everybody calls the pve metagame ‘zerk meta’ while weapons, runes, sigils, traits and utilities are far more important choices than the stats on your gear, unless you wear nomads. Also, asassins is most optimal for some classes, sinister gear with givers weapons can be most optimal for some classes in solo situations and there are niche uses for knights gear.

I’ve tried three times to respond to this post while still being constructive, it’s really difficult.

1) Joking aside, it’s not fine when “Half the gear types are deliberately added to troll us”
2) Gear doesn’t affect difficulty setting because toughness/vit don’t really make for easier encounters (since they all last longer and because if you dodge you die anyway). +Heal and +Tough don’t make you survive if you keep making the same mistakes and taking damage in the first place.
3) We’re talking about zerk meta because sigils/runes/traits/utilities are much more appropriately balanced (Read: There is choice). With Zerk gear there is no choice, you run it or you’re behind.
4) I know there are situations where you don’t run zerks. 3/25 gear choices viable is a minuscule improvement on 1/25 gear choices viable. That those non-zerker gears make up 10% of PvE with the other 90% being zerk is still not okay.

Guest.8245:

We know there will always be a meta. We want a Balanced meta, where multiple roles or gears are equally viable. This is not the case in current GW2 PvE.

petyr baelish.9675:

Or you can accept the current system because it’s fine? Your gear decides what kind of damage you will deal (condition, direct or none because nomads) and the difficulty setting. Besides, everybody know half of the gear types were deliberately added to troll us when we get an ascended chest/ring drop.

Quite funny everybody calls the pve metagame ‘zerk meta’ while weapons, runes, sigils, traits and utilities are far more important choices than the stats on your gear, unless you wear nomads. Also, asassins is most optimal for some classes, sinister gear with givers weapons can be most optimal for some classes in solo situations and there are niche uses for knights gear.

I’ve tried three times to respond to this post while still being constructive, it’s really difficult.

1) Joking aside, it’s not fine when “Half the gear types are deliberately added to troll us”
2) Gear doesn’t affect difficulty setting because toughness/vit don’t really make for easier encounters (since they all last longer and because if you dodge you die anyway). +Heal and +Tough don’t make you survive if you keep making the same mistakes and taking damage in the first place.
3) We’re talking about zerk meta because sigils/runes/traits/utilities are much more appropriately balanced (Read: There is choice). With Zerk gear there is no choice, you run it or you’re behind.
4) I know there are situations where you don’t run zerks. 3/25 gear choices viable is a minuscule improvement on 1/25 gear choices viable. That those non-zerker gears make up 10% of PvE with the other 90% being zerk is still not okay.

In short : you want to carry 2 or 3 sets of gear to be able to deal with different encounters, rather than just switching some traits and skills ?

Guest.8245:

We know there will always be a meta. We want a Balanced meta, where multiple roles or gears are equally viable. This is not the case in current GW2 PvE.

petyr baelish.9675:

Or you can accept the current system because it’s fine? Your gear decides what kind of damage you will deal (condition, direct or none because nomads) and the difficulty setting. Besides, everybody know half of the gear types were deliberately added to troll us when we get an ascended chest/ring drop.

Quite funny everybody calls the pve metagame ‘zerk meta’ while weapons, runes, sigils, traits and utilities are far more important choices than the stats on your gear, unless you wear nomads. Also, asassins is most optimal for some classes, sinister gear with givers weapons can be most optimal for some classes in solo situations and there are niche uses for knights gear.

I’ve tried three times to respond to this post while still being constructive, it’s really difficult.

1) Joking aside, it’s not fine when “Half the gear types are deliberately added to troll us”
2) Gear doesn’t affect difficulty setting because toughness/vit don’t really make for easier encounters (since they all last longer and because if you dodge you die anyway). +Heal and +Tough don’t make you survive if you keep making the same mistakes and taking damage in the first place.
3) We’re talking about zerk meta because sigils/runes/traits/utilities are much more appropriately balanced (Read: There is choice). With Zerk gear there is no choice, you run it or you’re behind.
4) I know there are situations where you don’t run zerks. 3/25 gear choices viable is a minuscule improvement on 1/25 gear choices viable. That those non-zerker gears make up 10% of PvE with the other 90% being zerk is still not okay.

This pretty much sums up the problem there is with the zerk meta.

Many people here are argueing that “you do have build choices when it comes to traits and classes”, and are using that to somehow justify the zerk meta being in place. It doesn’t matter: the fact is you have a choice when it comes to traits and classes, but you don’t have a choice when it comes to gear if we want, and that’s exactly what we want to change. We want to have a real, balanced choice when it comes to gear just as we do when it comes to classes.

Now the meta tryhards will answer “but you can chose any gear in game and play”, but this point has already been answered: when you have the choice to do a dungeon in 10 minutes with zerk or 60 minutes with Nomads, you can hardly call that a sincere “choice”. One is viable and the other isn’t.

Guest, you are being constructive, don’t worry about that. Like I said earlier, the difficulty isn’t explaining that the problem exists, it’s very easy for anyone to see the problem with this one-sided, uncreative zerk meta. The difficulty is in getting the hardcore zerk fanboys to listen to reason.

Also, PaxTheGreatOne made a good suggestion back there on how to take out the zerker problem, and I think this is the most likely scenario we will see happening in HoT, as we know that they will be working on DoT builds, both on NPCs and on players.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Guest.8245:

We know there will always be a meta. We want a Balanced meta, where multiple roles or gears are equally viable. This is not the case in current GW2 PvE.

petyr baelish.9675:

Or you can accept the current system because it’s fine? Your gear decides what kind of damage you will deal (condition, direct or none because nomads) and the difficulty setting. Besides, everybody know half of the gear types were deliberately added to troll us when we get an ascended chest/ring drop.

Quite funny everybody calls the pve metagame ‘zerk meta’ while weapons, runes, sigils, traits and utilities are far more important choices than the stats on your gear, unless you wear nomads. Also, asassins is most optimal for some classes, sinister gear with givers weapons can be most optimal for some classes in solo situations and there are niche uses for knights gear.

I’ve tried three times to respond to this post while still being constructive, it’s really difficult.

1) Joking aside, it’s not fine when “Half the gear types are deliberately added to troll us”
2) Gear doesn’t affect difficulty setting because toughness/vit don’t really make for easier encounters (since they all last longer and because if you dodge you die anyway). +Heal and +Tough don’t make you survive if you keep making the same mistakes and taking damage in the first place.
3) We’re talking about zerk meta because sigils/runes/traits/utilities are much more appropriately balanced (Read: There is choice). With Zerk gear there is no choice, you run it or you’re behind.
4) I know there are situations where you don’t run zerks. 3/25 gear choices viable is a minuscule improvement on 1/25 gear choices viable. That those non-zerker gears make up 10% of PvE with the other 90% being zerk is still not okay.

This pretty much sums up the problem there is with the zerk meta.

Many people here are argueing that “you do have build choices when it comes to traits and classes”, and are using that to somehow justify the zerk meta being in place. It doesn’t matter: the fact is you have a choice when it comes to traits and classes, but you don’t have a choice when it comes to gear if we want, and that’s exactly what we want to change. We want to have a real, balanced choice when it comes to gear just as we do when it comes to classes.

Now the meta tryhards will answer “but you can chose any gear in game and play”, but this point has already been answered: when you have the choice to do a dungeon in 10 minutes with zerk or 60 minutes with Nomads, you can hardly call that a sincere “choice”. One is viable and the other isn’t.

Guest, you are being constructive, don’t worry about that. Like I said earlier, the difficulty isn’t explaining that the problem exists, it’s very easy for anyone to see the problem with this one-sided, uncreative zerk meta. The difficulty is in getting the hardcore zerk fanboys to listen to reason.

Also, PaxTheGreatOne made a good suggestion back there on how to take out the zerker problem, and I think this is the most likely scenario we will see happening in HoT, as we know that they will be working on DoT builds, both on NPCs and on players.

So, you want to be able to facetank content with nomads and still complete it as fast as glasscanons ? Btw, glasscanons can complete the content in 10 minutes ONLY if they know it by heart. Else, it takes MUCH more time, and sometimes they can not even complete it.

Calling us ‘zerk fanboys’ won’t make your point valid. I’m not a ‘fanboy’ (i hate this calling, anyone using it is despising others people), i just like to be able to complete the content in any gear i want with any build i want. And it’s actually the case.

Oh and btw : calling it ‘uncreative’ when you are saying than GW2 should look at what other MMOs do and inspire of it is kind of … hypocrite.

Dromar.1027:

Why not care about both…
The meta is flawed as a game that is supposed to be enjoyable for a demographic much larger then those that only care about their virtual wallet. When a large part of the player base is forced to kitten themselves heavily with armor that is supposed to be top tier just so they can have fun its a huge failure on the part of the development team.

Because most players are’t role players. I don’t care about doing one thing in many ways because ultimately the reason i’m doing that thing ( dungeon) is not the thing itself but the reward at the end.
People choose the effective way because people want to farm. The only people in this game that I have on my friends list who still do dungeons do them because :
1. They want to finish their collection achievement.
2. They are farming the gold.

Remove the gold from the dungeons and see how many people do them. It is not about diversity – people play for the rewards.

The game is enjoyable to all – just that the most people doing the content are motivated by their virtual wallet. And it makes sense.

If you like AC – you’ll do AC every now and again in a casual laid back setting.
If you’re farming AC you’ll be doing AC every day all 3 paths for as long as you need to to get that gold.

Those players aren’t in zerker “to have fun” the fun part doesn’t come in here. I doubt anyone zerker or non-zerker is “having fun” by doing their 300th run of AC P1.

Everyone can have fun with any armor set – if you don’t like zerker don’t use it. It’s as simple as that.

Guest.8245:

We know there will always be a meta. We want a Balanced meta, where multiple roles or gears are equally viable. This is not the case in current GW2 PvE.

petyr baelish.9675:

Or you can accept the current system because it’s fine? Your gear decides what kind of damage you will deal (condition, direct or none because nomads) and the difficulty setting. Besides, everybody know half of the gear types were deliberately added to troll us when we get an ascended chest/ring drop.

Quite funny everybody calls the pve metagame ‘zerk meta’ while weapons, runes, sigils, traits and utilities are far more important choices than the stats on your gear, unless you wear nomads. Also, asassins is most optimal for some classes, sinister gear with givers weapons can be most optimal for some classes in solo situations and there are niche uses for knights gear.

I’ve tried three times to respond to this post while still being constructive, it’s really difficult.

1) Joking aside, it’s not fine when “Half the gear types are deliberately added to troll us”
2) Gear doesn’t affect difficulty setting because toughness/vit don’t really make for easier encounters (since they all last longer and because if you dodge you die anyway). +Heal and +Tough don’t make you survive if you keep making the same mistakes and taking damage in the first place.
3) We’re talking about zerk meta because sigils/runes/traits/utilities are much more appropriately balanced (Read: There is choice). With Zerk gear there is no choice, you run it or you’re behind.
4) I know there are situations where you don’t run zerks. 3/25 gear choices viable is a minuscule improvement on 1/25 gear choices viable. That those non-zerker gears make up 10% of PvE with the other 90% being zerk is still not okay.

1) Some geartypes are made just because they can be made or because they are requested by the community. For example, I’m pretty sure the devs never intended that people actually used magi stats when they designed it. A less extreme case would be to take pvt over nomad because pvt allows you to deal at least some damage. This is not because of bad design, but because some stat combinations are just bad.
2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zKXILTkQo
There is also a nomad lupi solo that has been linked by dlonie if i’m not mistaken.
Conclusion: tank gear is kittening op if you don’t care about speed and it’s easier if you play with tanky stats. Your argument is void. People can keep on soloing bosses forever in berserker gear if they play properly, however, it is a lot easier when you do it in pvt gear because you can afford to take a hit now and then instead of insta downing. Compared to that, the ‘extra risk of making mistakes’ because the fight lasts slightly longer is insignificant.
Inb4 ‘the vids you linked are special cases’: no it’s kittening not, there is an endless supply of such vids for multiple bosses I just assume 2(3) are enough to make my point.
3) What I’m saying is that the meta is not defined by gear but by a whole playstyle that includes a number of factors, of which the stat choice is a less significant one.
4) Every gear choice is VIABLE, which means you can complete the content on anything. 3 gear choices are part of the most EFFICIENT IF YOU KNOW THE PROPER STRATEGIES AND IF YOU ARE SKILLED ENOUGH. And I cannot stress this enough, FOR MORE THAN 50% OF THE PLAYERS, NOT RUNNING ONE OF THOSE 3 GEAR CHOICES IS MORE EFFICIENT BECAUSE THEY CAN’T STAY ALIVE IN GLASS GEAR.

edit: And as an answer to your last remark: the choice is pretty balanced. Do you want to have the fastest possible runs? ->pick berserker/asassin/etc.
On the other hand. Do you want to watch tv while you run dungeons?Do you suck? Do you want to RP an unkillable warrior or a ‘cool’ dual pistol wielding thief? -> nomad and any other gear you want.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

25 gear choices because in case you haven’t noticed not every part of the content in this game is zerker. Most gear choices have a niche area in PVE where they are useful.
Almost all of them can work in PvP where going full zerker doesn’t even work for most classes.

Because there’s a design choice that rewards skill. The whole idea is that if you have skill you can survive using it – using your active defenses and dodges and you will be rewarded with a faster clear time.
If you have no skill you will have to take more passive defense ( higher HP and armor) and can survive without that skill but it will take you longer.

The reason for this is to promote active play and eventually push people into learning the game better – knowing what to use and when to dodge.

If you want people of different skill levels to perform identically in your game regardless of their skill level then at least to me that seems to be a problem. Skilled play should be rewarded whilst unskilled play shouldn’t – so those less skilled have a reason to keep improving.

If everyone is clearing and surviving the same regardless of skill then why bother learning the game? Why bother investing yourself in understanding it?

It’s an absurd notion – at least to me.
You have to earn your rewards – the more skill you have the faster you can earn them.

Even Shaman’s gear has some uses in the game – I bet you don’t even know what they are. They are niche – true – but they can be very useful.

Maybe we are just coming to the conclusion that going no-trinity was a mistake all along.

Actually I think that the majority of people who chose GW2 for the non-trinity system aren’t even bothering with the forums – the silent majority is out there playing the game and not caring about your posts but even in this thread I think the number of people that have supported the non-trinity system and tried to explain how GW2 works to you is far greater than those who want the old trinity system back.

Here’s the deal – no matter how well they advertised it appears some people didn’t get it – if you want a classic trinity game this is not the game you’re looking for.
Asking Anet to change the game 3 years into its release – with a large player base formed mostly of people who don’t want trinity games ( since they’re not playing those games and playing GW2) is the same as picking the wrong bus to get on and insisting it change course to get you to where you wanted to go.

Also I don’t remember the military having a trinity system – looking forward to you explaining it to me.

What argument can you possibly make about the trinity system being bad and not belonging in GW2 anyway?

I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad – I’m saying it is bringing a level of character and class interdependence that GW2 was not designed or advertised to have.
This game we’re playing now was advertised as a game in which you didn’t depend on other people doing specific things to succeed.

That’s what GW2 gets right – and even if in the larger picture trinity games are also fine and fun – I don’t understand why people try to change this game which has its “niche” appeal to its players instead of going and playing one of their favorite trinity games.

Omg all dat wall of texts.

…essays.

Harper.4173:

Everyone can have fun with any armor set – if you don’t like zerker don’t use it. It’s as simple as that.

You have already been answered on this, and I will copy/paste the answer below:

Those who argue that off-zerker gearsets is “Not Optimal” but is “Still Viable” – this is a load of crock. The difference between a 6 min clear and a 56 min clear in a goal/reward-driven game is severe enough to classify the 56 min clear build as “not viable”. The difference between optimal and not optimal should be more in the ballpark of 6 mins vs 8~10 mins.

Please acknowledge other people’s answers to you, because repeatedly ignoring them and making the same debunked point over and over again is exactly what derails conversations into flame wars.

Moreover,

Harper.4173:

Those players aren’t in zerker “to have fun” the fun part doesn’t come in here. I doubt anyone zerker or non-zerker is “having fun” by doing their 300th run of AC P1.

If you have done ACP1 300 times then maybe it’s time to move on to something else more constructive. Like hunting achievements, finishing ascended sets, etc etc. If you have already done all of that then maybe taking a break from GW2 would be a good choice. I mean, you’re saying that you are not having fun, or that said zerker is not having fun, and yet video games are about having fun. Doesn’t add up to me.

Dromar.1027:

The problem with zerker isnt that it exists, its that the game unintentionally favors it. In fact Anet never saw this coming because they underestimated the resourcefulness of the players base along with bad mob AI and design.

I even dare say zerker is easier for me to play than any other build.

I would like to say I highly believe this is false. I see the “Anet never saw it coming” argument pop-up time and again BUT I don’t think it’s right.

Why?

Before developing GW2 Anet developed GW1 – another game where players quickly proved very resourceful in finding farms and speed clears that could beat 3-4 hour long elite areas in around 20 minutes ( FOWSC).

If this was their first game I might have believed the “they didn’t know” line – but considering they had multiple farms and speed clears in GW1 which they changed/influenced by balancing skills proves that :

1.They are aware ( or at least should have been) of how resourceful people are.
2.They could take action if these things weren’t to their liking – and often in the past they did.

My conclusion? Anet changed its policy – with the new one being to allow people to farm and speed clear since you can’t really stop them anyway.

Also – if you take away the farmers and speed clear people from dungeons for example you’re taking away the majority of people who actually do them and leave behind a ghost town.

I hope you see why I can’t agree with “they didn’t see it coming”.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

you need to remember that a majority of the people we are dealing with are not creative, story-mode loving players. The majority of them are second-grade farmers who repeat the same dungeon 1000 times, skip all cutscenes, have no idea who Logan Thackeray or Rytlock Brimstone are, and will stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that there’s a problem with gear balancing in game – because they know that balancing gear would deal a blow to their beloved speedruns for a while.

So why change the game and tick off the majority of your player base for those few who actually dislike the current status of the game?

I’m not saying this is accurate – but you put out a situation and I’d like to hear your answer to it.

In case you haven’t noticed GW2 exists to make money – just like every other game.
You ask above why not go with the “no gear set” variant – and to some extent I’ve asked the same. The answer ? Gear sets provide excellent time sinks.

Time sinks – things that keep a player playing long after he’s playing for kicks or enjoyment.

With a free to play gem-store model game the more people you keep in the game for more time the higher the chance someone will buy something on the gem store.

That’s why a lot of things are in the game designed around the idea of keeping you glued to it – the more time in GW2 you spend – the higher the chance you’ll spend some money on it.

It’s not so much a game design choice as it is a viable psychological tactic.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Harper.4173:

Everyone can have fun with any armor set – if you don’t like zerker don’t use it. It’s as simple as that.

You have already been answered on this, and I will copy/paste the answer below:

Those who argue that off-zerker gearsets is “Not Optimal” but is “Still Viable” – this is a load of crock. The difference between a 6 min clear and a 56 min clear in a goal/reward-driven game is severe enough to classify the 56 min clear build as “not viable”. The difference between optimal and not optimal should be more in the ballpark of 6 mins vs 8~10 mins.

Please acknowledge other people’s answers to you, because repeatedly ignoring them and making the same debunked point over and over again is exactly what derails conversations into flame wars.

Moreover,

Harper.4173:

Those players aren’t in zerker “to have fun” the fun part doesn’t come in here. I doubt anyone zerker or non-zerker is “having fun” by doing their 300th run of AC P1.

If you have done ACP1 300 times then maybe it’s time to move on to something else more constructive. Like hunting achievements, finishing ascended sets, etc etc. If you have already done all of that then maybe taking a break from GW2 would be a good choice. I mean, you’re saying that you are not having fun, or that said zerker is not having fun, and yet video games are about having fun. Doesn’t add up to me.

I would like to apologize – I answered to that before reading all the way to page 3.
I would also like you to answer my entire posts if possible not just 1-2 snips that you think are easy.
I’ve asked you some very legitimate questions – namely :

That’s what GW2 gets right – and even if in the larger picture trinity games are also fine and fun – I don’t understand why people try to change this game which has its “niche” appeal to its players instead of going and playing one of their favorite trinity games.

Regarding the fun stuff – it depends on what fun is for you.
For me fun is spending gold and getting expensive stuff – I AM having fun – but not by doing AC. I’m having fun spending the gold from AC.

Now unless you’re willing to send me some gold to spend I don’t see how I can have fun spending gold and getting stuff while not earning it.

Harper.4173:

25 gear choices because in case you haven’t noticed not every part of the content in this game is zerker

Has been answered numerous times in this thread.

Harper.4173:

Because there’s a design choice that rewards skill. The whole idea is that if you have skill you can survive using it – using your active defenses and dodges and you will be rewarded with a faster clear time.
If you have no skill you will have to take more passive defense ( higher HP and armor) and can survive without that skill but it will take you longer.

[etc etc]

Irrelevant. If everyone has the same gear (if gear choice would be removed), it will end in the same result: new players will take long to finish content, veterans will speedrun through everything. Skill will still be rewarded by speed. There is proof of this: Vindictus. No gear, entirely action-based MMO, and this is exactly what you see.

Harper.4173:

Actually I think that the majority of people who chose GW2 for the non-trinity system aren’t even bothering with the forums – the silent majority is out there playing the game and not caring about your posts but even in this thread I think the number of people that have supported the non-trinity system and tried to explain how GW2 works to you is far greater than those who want the old trinity system back.

Argument from ignorance into argument from authority, one fallacy to the other. Hurray for logic.

Harper.4173:

Here’s the deal – no matter how well they advertised it appears some people didn’t get it – if you want a classic trinity game this is not the game you’re looking for.
Asking Anet to change the game 3 years into its release – with a large player base formed mostly of people who don’t want trinity games ( since they’re not playing those games and playing GW2) is the same as picking the wrong bus to get on and insisting it change course to get you to where you wanted to go.

Non-trinity is only one aspect of this game.

I love the story. I love the races, especially Asura. I love the classes and trait system. I love most of the community. Almost everything in this game is the way me and many others like it. The gear problem is a problem that truly exists. We want it fixed. There are enough of us who want it fixed. Your typical response of “don’t like it go away” is something you can shove back up where it came from – we are here to stay, and given that some things seem to be getting a change in HoT, maybe it’s a good sign the devs are listening to us, to an extent.

Harper.4173:

Also I don’t remember the military having a trinity system – looking forward to you explaining it to me.

Ah the bad faith. With a bit of good faith you could’ve understood it. I think these things just prove how unwilling you are to listen to others…

Warriors, archers, clerics?
Infantry, artillery, field medics?
Swords, shields, medical supplies?
Marines, Air Force, hospitals?
Tank cannons, tank armor, engineers?

Did it ever occur to you that it’s simply a natural pattern? A need to attack, defend and survive? It’s not something you can really escape. Even in your beloved zerk meta: attacking, dodging, self-healing. By removing it from gear choices you’re just forcing everyone to have a trinity of his own rather than needing to depend on others. You’re just taking a step back from a system that works wonderfully.

This doesn’t make the game better. It just dumbs down the game and makes you rely on others much less, which in turn makes teamwork less important.

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad – I’m saying it is bringing a level of character and class interdependence that GW2 was not designed or advertised to have.

And 3 years after release it has proven to be more a flaw than anything else, because it creates this scenario where only one gear set is truly viable in PvE.
The design is there. It would only take a few tweaks to push GW2 into having that gear trinity. In some cases there’s already a class trinity, guardians are sometimes necessary for their reflects for example, warriors for DPS and thieves for skipping past certain dungeon puzzles.

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records this page contains all the dungeon records for every path. The record for arah p2 is 9m 25s. In the video I linked earlier, which I link here again for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM rT finished arah p2 in 28m 51s while everybody is wearing cleric gear, which is one of the most tanky gearchoices in the game (healing power mainstat, power and toughness minor). So, the path took 3 times longer than the all time record, while everybody was wearing the (almost) tankiest gear in the game and with dodge keys unbound. And it’s not like they were trying to be fast either.

In case everybody runs some half decent gear it WILL actually take only a few minutes longer, compared to full berserker gear, while being a lot easier and safer. Unlike the 56 minutes you claim it will take if you don’t run berserker gear.

Honestly, most people that ask for ‘zerk gear’ in their group don’t really care about the berserker gear. What they actually ask of you is that you:
1) know how to run the dungeon
2) have the right build = traits, weapons and utilities
3) know the proper damage rotations and provide the support that’s expected of your class.
4) (bonus) use the right food
These 3(4) things are far more important than wearing berserker/asassin gear. Unfortunately, gear ping is the only way they can filter. This way they still won’t know if you are up to their standards, but at least they’ll know they’re playing with like minded individuals, or they’re getting trolled by nomad warriors that keep a zerk set in their inventory to ping.

edit: wow you guys sure do post fast, anyhow my post is a response to this one:
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You have already been answered on this, and I will copy/paste the answer below:

Those who argue that off-zerker gearsets is “Not Optimal” but is “Still Viable” – this is a load of crock. The difference between a 6 min clear and a 56 min clear in a goal/reward-driven game is severe enough to classify the 56 min clear build as “not viable”. The difference between optimal and not optimal should be more in the ballpark of 6 mins vs 8~10 mins.
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Yes, I don’t know how to use the forum. :^)

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Ah the bad faith. With a bit of good faith you could’ve understood it. I think these things just prove how unwilling you are to listen to others…

Warriors, archers, clerics?
Infantry, artillery, field medics?
Swords, shields, medical supplies?
Marines, Air Force, hospitals?
Tank cannons, tank armor, engineers?

Did it ever occur to you that it’s simply a natural pattern? A need to attack, defend and survive? It’s not something you can really escape. Even in your beloved zerk meta: attacking, dodging, self-healing. By removing it from gear choices you’re just forcing everyone to have a trinity of his own rather than needing to depend on others. You’re just taking a step back from a system that works wonderfully.

This doesn’t make the game better. It just dumbs down the game and makes you rely on others much less, which in turn makes teamwork less important.

Well said. However, the problem with trinity is that two of the roles kind of suck. I distinctly recall most MMOs having an overwhelming number of players with DPS builds and only a handful of people who enjoy playing dedicated healers and tanks. The devs here seem to have recognized that and let everyone focus on the fun part (whacking things) while still contributing a bit of support (buffs and defense).

petyr baelish.9675:

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records this page contains all the dungeon records for every path. The record for arah p2 is 9m 25s. In the video I linked earlier, which I link here again for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM rT finished arah p2 in 28m 51s while everybody is wearing cleric gear, which is one of the most tanky gearchoices in the game (healing power mainstat, power and toughness minor). So, the path took 3 times longer than the all time record, while everybody was wearing the (almost) tankiest gear in the game and with dodge keys unbound. And it’s not like they were trying to be fast either.

In case everybody runs some half decent gear it WILL actually take only a few minutes longer, compared to full berserker gear, while being a lot easier and safer. Unlike the 56 minutes you claim it will take if you don’t run berserker gear.

These are one time records, which will be fast no matter what. (28 minutes is still three times as long as 9… it’s a huge difference). What would be interesting to see would be averages.

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

Actually, I find the action style combat, being completely self reliant and the fact that I have to pay attention to ‘all 3 parts of the trinity’ instead of 1 dedicated role a lot more entertaining than playing a trinity role.