Guild Wars 2

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records this page contains all the dungeon records for every path. The record for arah p2 is 9m 25s. In the video I linked earlier, which I link here again for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM rT finished arah p2 in 28m 51s while everybody is wearing cleric gear, which is one of the most tanky gearchoices in the game (healing power mainstat, power and toughness minor). So, the path took 3 times longer than the all time record, while everybody was wearing the (almost) tankiest gear in the game and with dodge keys unbound. And it’s not like they were trying to be fast either.

In case everybody runs some half decent gear it WILL actually take only a few minutes longer, compared to full berserker gear, while being a lot easier and safer. Unlike the 56 minutes you claim it will take if you don’t run berserker gear.

These are one time records, which will be fast no matter what. (28 minutes is still three times as long as 9… it’s a huge difference). What would be interesting to see would be averages.

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

You didn’t read my post at all, and if you did, you didn’t understand it.
Oh. And you didn’t quote this importan part, which actually adresses your closing statement:
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Honestly, most people that ask for ‘zerk gear’ in their group don’t really care about the berserker gear. What they actually ask of you is that you:
1) know how to run the dungeon
2) have the right build = traits, weapons and utilities
3) know the proper damage rotations and provide the support that’s expected of your class.
4) (bonus) use the right food
These 3(4) things are far more important than wearing berserker/asassin gear. Unfortunately, gear ping is the only way they can filter. This way they still won’t know if you are up to their standards, but at least they’ll know they’re playing with like minded individuals, or they’re getting trolled by nomad warriors that keep a zerk set in their inventory to ping.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Teehee you deleted your post. Does that mean I win? Where is my prize? (incinerator plz)
Edit: Ah no, seems like I’m just stupid and still can’t use the forum.

petyr baelish.9675:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records this page contains all the dungeon records for every path. The record for arah p2 is 9m 25s. In the video I linked earlier, which I link here again for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM rT finished arah p2 in 28m 51s while everybody is wearing cleric gear, which is one of the most tanky gearchoices in the game (healing power mainstat, power and toughness minor). So, the path took 3 times longer than the all time record, while everybody was wearing the (almost) tankiest gear in the game and with dodge keys unbound. And it’s not like they were trying to be fast either.

In case everybody runs some half decent gear it WILL actually take only a few minutes longer, compared to full berserker gear, while being a lot easier and safer. Unlike the 56 minutes you claim it will take if you don’t run berserker gear.

These are one time records, which will be fast no matter what. (28 minutes is still three times as long as 9… it’s a huge difference). What would be interesting to see would be averages.

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

You didn’t read my post at all, and if you did, you didn’t understand it.
Oh. And you didn’t quote this importan part, which actually adresses your closing statement:
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Honestly, most people that ask for ‘zerk gear’ in their group don’t really care about the berserker gear. What they actually ask of you is that you:
1) know how to run the dungeon
2) have the right build = traits, weapons and utilities
3) know the proper damage rotations and provide the support that’s expected of your class.
4) (bonus) use the right food
These 3(4) things are far more important than wearing berserker/asassin gear. Unfortunately, gear ping is the only way they can filter. This way they still won’t know if you are up to their standards, but at least they’ll know they’re playing with like minded individuals, or they’re getting trolled by nomad warriors that keep a zerk set in their inventory to ping.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

If you join a zerk meta party, they ask you to ping and you show you have rampagers, it’s most likely you’ll get kicked. Yet rampagers is also a full DPS set.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

So what? Everyone is free to make their own LFG listing.

‘Zerker meta’ has many, many degrees. As littlefinger noted, most people who put that on a listing just want like-minded players.

Either way, this will probably never be a trinity game. For every one of you ‘traditionalists’, there’s ten people who like the current set up.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records this page contains all the dungeon records for every path. The record for arah p2 is 9m 25s. In the video I linked earlier, which I link here again for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM rT finished arah p2 in 28m 51s while everybody is wearing cleric gear, which is one of the most tanky gearchoices in the game (healing power mainstat, power and toughness minor). So, the path took 3 times longer than the all time record, while everybody was wearing the (almost) tankiest gear in the game and with dodge keys unbound. And it’s not like they were trying to be fast either.

In case everybody runs some half decent gear it WILL actually take only a few minutes longer, compared to full berserker gear, while being a lot easier and safer. Unlike the 56 minutes you claim it will take if you don’t run berserker gear.

These are one time records, which will be fast no matter what. (28 minutes is still three times as long as 9… it’s a huge difference). What would be interesting to see would be averages.

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

You didn’t read my post at all, and if you did, you didn’t understand it.
Oh. And you didn’t quote this importan part, which actually adresses your closing statement:
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Honestly, most people that ask for ‘zerk gear’ in their group don’t really care about the berserker gear. What they actually ask of you is that you:
1) know how to run the dungeon
2) have the right build = traits, weapons and utilities
3) know the proper damage rotations and provide the support that’s expected of your class.
4) (bonus) use the right food
These 3(4) things are far more important than wearing berserker/asassin gear. Unfortunately, gear ping is the only way they can filter. This way they still won’t know if you are up to their standards, but at least they’ll know they’re playing with like minded individuals, or they’re getting trolled by nomad warriors that keep a zerk set in their inventory to ping.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

If you join a zerk meta party, they ask you to ping and you show you have rampagers, it’s most likely you’ll get kicked. Yet rampagers is also a full DPS set.

WHOOSH. For the entirety of this thread you claim there is a mayor performance gap between gear choices and that berserker is the only viable set. I prove that this is not the case by providing factual evidence. You then even AGREE with me that the difference is not that big. And then you start about the discrimination by ‘7331’ zerk pugs that don’t understand the game any more than you do, which is another matter entirely.

Also to clarify: The all time record is, indeed, a tryhard record where they ran with a party setup optimised for that specific dungeon path, these players pushed to their limits and there whas a whole bunch of mesmer running ahead and portaling people trough. Not to mention all the resets they did because of slight kittenups or bad rng. The 28 minute run, on the other hand. Is a casual run with cleric gear and a crappy team comp (they had a necro for kitten sake) and it was only 20 minutes longer.

cthaeh.2168:

Maybe you should post this on the WoW or LoL forums where it would actually be relevant.

Uh what.

Taunts are rare in LoL. Most tanks don’t have them, and if they do, they’re low duration. Tanks in LoL tend to be characters that are tanky enough to survive taking dangerous positions, and either powerful enough to punish you for ignoring them, or so full of all sorts of CC that they’ll disrupt you and make it possible for their glass cannons to kite/heal.

The first type sounds exactly like the popular celestial builds.

petyr baelish.9675:

Actually, I find the action style combat, being completely self reliant and the fact that I have to pay attention to ‘all 3 parts of the trinity’ instead of 1 dedicated role a lot more entertaining than playing a trinity role.

I do too, but I think you’re being unreasonable in dismissing this as a “problem” entirely out of hand.

You certainly haven’t “proven” the gap isn’t major, or that that zerker/assassin isn’t generally far more viable than other sets (or regarded as such very widely). You’ve expressed that opinion and backed it up with what you feel is supporting evidence, but it’s not terrible compelling or certain stuff. Nor will anyone “prove” anything here, because it is, in the end, largely a matter of opinion. Facts help, but they’re used to support opinions. This isn’t science.

I think the real issue is pretty simple, which we keep dancing around – Berserker/Assassin gear stacks with itself, performance-wise, in a way that is clear both from the math and from the practice, to the point where it makes other gear seem like a very bad idea. Even tough/vit/heal which you might expect to do roughly the same thing, simply does not in PvE, because this is GW2, healing is pretty limited, and everyone is DPSing.

It’s not just Zerker/Assassin that’s a factor, either – it’s monster design, too. Not only do you get this vast DPS from this gear, but monsters:

1) Don’t live long enough vs stacked Zerkers to provide much challenge.

2) Don’t put out enough non-avoidable damage to make the low HP/low-toughness factor actually matter (they die before you run out of Dodges/Blocks/HP).

3) Can’t have Conditions stacked on them much, so Condi builds are fairly useless a lot of the time.

4) They have to rely on VERY BIG HITS which absolutely must be avoided, rather than a lot of medium size hits, where you have to be smart about what you avoid.

These all feed into the meta.

Skill is a big issue here, but’s not a straightforward one – I’ve played with a lot of different people, and what’s become very obvious to me is that Zerker-style play is actually easier and more reliable for most players than play involving more complex gear setups. So in a way I think Zerker is actually very friendly to sort of low-mid skill players – people beyond bad and beyond casual but not actually good.

Zerker is also great for “wipe-until-you-win”-type play. Battles are over quickly one way or another, and it’s much easier to “luck out” and win with all-Zerker than it is with other setups, because you don’t need the players to actually play well for very long.

All this said, I think discussing the Zerker meta is silly until we see how the Condition changes affect things and how HoT monster design is (a lot of high-toughness or “shielding” mobs will mess with Zerker a great deal). I personally believe that what we’ll see is that toughness, vitality and healing will remain pretty worthless in PvE, and that people using heavy conditions will outlast with Dodge/Block/kiting etc. rather than actually utilizing those stats.

The difficulty, of course, is PvP/WvW – all the stats are pretty well-balanced for that. So to put toughness/vitality/healing in a good place in PvE, you might have to buff their power in PvE specifically.

We shall see, of course.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records this page contains all the dungeon records for every path. The record for arah p2 is 9m 25s. In the video I linked earlier, which I link here again for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM rT finished arah p2 in 28m 51s while everybody is wearing cleric gear, which is one of the most tanky gearchoices in the game (healing power mainstat, power and toughness minor). So, the path took 3 times longer than the all time record, while everybody was wearing the (almost) tankiest gear in the game and with dodge keys unbound. And it’s not like they were trying to be fast either.

In case everybody runs some half decent gear it WILL actually take only a few minutes longer, compared to full berserker gear, while being a lot easier and safer. Unlike the 56 minutes you claim it will take if you don’t run berserker gear.

These are one time records, which will be fast no matter what. (28 minutes is still three times as long as 9… it’s a huge difference). What would be interesting to see would be averages.

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

You didn’t read my post at all, and if you did, you didn’t understand it.
Oh. And you didn’t quote this importan part, which actually adresses your closing statement:
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Honestly, most people that ask for ‘zerk gear’ in their group don’t really care about the berserker gear. What they actually ask of you is that you:
1) know how to run the dungeon
2) have the right build = traits, weapons and utilities
3) know the proper damage rotations and provide the support that’s expected of your class.
4) (bonus) use the right food
These 3(4) things are far more important than wearing berserker/asassin gear. Unfortunately, gear ping is the only way they can filter. This way they still won’t know if you are up to their standards, but at least they’ll know they’re playing with like minded individuals, or they’re getting trolled by nomad warriors that keep a zerk set in their inventory to ping.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

If you join a zerk meta party, they ask you to ping and you show you have rampagers, it’s most likely you’ll get kicked. Yet rampagers is also a full DPS set.

Let’s join a party asking some requirements without meeting the said requirements, OMGWTFBBQ they kicked me, it’s so unfair !

Do you even realise what you are saying ? YES, rampager is a DPS set. NO, it’s not part of the zerk meta. Those groups doesn’t seek DPS, they seek for a particular SETUP.

And it’s their right to do so !

Jahroots.6791:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I think a valkyrie set would be very close in speed to a zerk set. I run in valkyrie/exuberance and I’m fine with dungeon clearing speeds. But you have to understand that a large % of the community is not willing to acknowledge that, hence the “zerk meta” LFG requirement instead of “nuker meta”.

So what? Everyone is free to make their own LFG listing.

‘Zerker meta’ has many, many degrees. As littlefinger noted, most people who put that on a listing just want like-minded players.

No. You appear to seriously misunderstand the meta.

Full-Valk would not be “very close” in speed to full Zerk, because of the MULTIPLICATIVE effect of stacking 3 DPS stats.*

Also, Zerk is meta because the WHOLE party is Zerk (or mostly Zerk). If you have, say 1-2 Zerk in a varied-gear party, it doesn’t work – the Zerks just keep getting killed because the enemies don’t die fast enough and they run out of Dodges, Blocks, etc. and have to play well for much longer when they have to deal with much longer-lived enemies.

5 players, stacking 3 DPS stats, drops enemies so fast that you don’t need to play particularly well, just Dodge/Block the relatively few attacks the enemies get off before they drop. That’s why it’s meta.

Jahroots.6791:

Either way, this will probably never be a trinity game. For every one of you ‘traditionalists’, there’s ten people who like the current set up.

Ten people who like Zerker meta, though? No. Just people who don’t want Holy Trinity. They’re two different groups.

• = Unless you’re getting giant loads of crit from non-gear stats.

The thing is in the last 3 years NOBODY, and there was a lot of people that tried, could come up with an idea to make other gear optimal in PvE. Except for condition. Which is fine and everybody agree that it should be good. Glass canon condition gear should be meta and Anet should fix it. But other than that ;

Either their solution is to nerf zerker at different level, which will never change the fact that zerker will still be the best solution and will change nothing to the current meta game except maybe it will be harder to keep 25 stack of vulnerability because of less precision and longer fight.

Or their solution is to nerf basic active defense so much that you need defensive gear or you will never be able to survive. Which dumb down the game since active defense is why the game is so much fun in the first place.

Or they try to do some magic gymnastic to make role or make defensive gear worth without being a holy trinity, but failed miserably.

Or they ask for more challenging content without realizing that it’s exactly what pro-meta people ask because they know they have a lot more active defence up their sleeves and won’t need any other gear than zerker.

In the end, there is no way to make toughness, vitality and healing power optimal except if they change the game entirely. As long as we have enough active defense, we gonna rely on that before changing gear. The moment we won’t have enough active defense, then yes we gonna need some defensive gear, but the game won’t be the same.

For me there is two ’’solutions’’. Because I get that people see the lack of diversity in gear as a problem. They could make some minor nerf to basic active defense and buff upgrade from other source like traits. And make content more challenging. This way, most people won’t be able to complete content in zerker gear, but it will still be the most optimal way. It will also give more diversity as some ppl will prefer to sacrifice damage modifier from trait to gain the active defense they need to survive, while other will use defensive gear. The fact that zerker is optimal isn’t a problem, but the fact that almost anybody can rock this setup may be a problem pointing to the non challenging nature of the current game.

The second solution would be to make all gear take at least 1 non dps stats. Ideally, it would be stats like boon duration, condition duration, healing power. And maybe removing ferocity as a stats all together (and balancing stats after to make up for that lost). An engineer that give a lot of vulnerability would want a Power, Precision, Condition duration gear, while a Guardian could be best with a Power, Precision, Healing power and a PS Warrior would take a Power, Precision, Boon Duration gear. It’s a big change and I’m sure that A LOT OF PEOPLE could find holes in it. I’m not even sure I really like this idea. But it’s the only one I see where active defense is still the main source of defense, but we have gear diversity.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Also, Zerk is meta because the WHOLE party is Zerk (or mostly Zerk). If you have, say 1-2 Zerk in a varied-gear party, it doesn’t work – the Zerks just keep getting killed because the enemies don’t die fast enough and they run out of Dodges, Blocks, etc. and have to play well for much longer when they have to deal with much longer-lived enemies.

That’s because you are bad. Most of us can solo a dungeon, so 1-2 people not zerk will kitten us off if we asked full zerker in the first place, but it won’t kill us.

I do not think there is a problem with stat combos in GW2, but at the moment there is a problem with there being no noticable benefits to being a more tanky/supportive role. Defensive stats are effective, but they are not required. However, I do not think they should become required, as that will just be stepping backwards back to the old trinity again.

The only solution I can see to this problem, is to make encounters more challenging, but not to the point where berserker players can no longer tackle them. Make content tough for all stats, but extremely tough for high damage stats. Not impossible, but certainly a lot harder. Make defensive roles more useful, but not essential. Make stuff like dungeon runs go much smoother with defensive roles, without making it impossible for dps roles. Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

At the end of the day stat combos should remain a choice, not become a requirement. If a full team wants to run full zerker builds, then they should be allowed to. But at the same time, they should be seriously challenged when doing content without any supportive players in the group. And that is where GW2 fails at the moment. The challenge balance is not quite right at the moment, and if that could be fixed I do not think there would be any issue.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

We want it fixed. There are enough of us who want it fixed. Your typical response of “don’t like it go away” is something you can shove back up where it came from – we are here to stay, and given that some things seem to be getting a change in HoT, maybe it’s a good sign the devs are listening to us, to an extent.

How do you know there are “enough of you” – that’s the same assumption I made and you called “argument from ignorance”.
You cannot know. You can assume.
I can assume as well – and I assume since the game devs have kept things like this for 3 years there are not enough of you for them to change the game.
There’s no point catering to a minority when the majority is doing just fine with the game as is. Better use your resources to make more content to sell in the gem store.

Also I’m having a pretty hard time figuring out why you think HoT will push things your way. I have a feeling you’ll be disappointed.

Regarding the military – your understanding is so superficial I won’t even bother.

Just understand this – by your logic GW2 also has a trinity built into every person since you have your own aggro management, your own healing skill and own damage.

I’m not asking for a step “back” from a system that “works wonderfully” in your opinion – I am asking for the step taken in a different direction to be kept.
I don’t care that you don’t like it – and that’s the core of it. I do – many others do.

You’re basically saying this :

You bought this game because you enjoy many aspects of it yet wish it to change so it will completely suit you. An analogy could be made :

You bought a Snickers bar because you like chocolate. Yet you would like the producers to change it and make it almost identical to a Mars bar.
You ignore the fact that people like the Snickers bar as it is and insist that it be changed into your idealized version of what it should be.

The real problem is that you bought the wrong thing and are now unhappy with it but this doesn’t mean the rest of the people are.

Being less reliant on others does not “dumb down the game” – I could say the same thing about being more reliant on others. The more you rely on others to do certain tasks the less you have to do them and the more you can focus on fewer things.

Also – if you haven’t realized that GW2’s gameplay is all about teamwork and that a team working together will absolutely outperform a team that doesn’t – then you’re not even playing the game.

GW2 encourages teamplay – it just doesn’t punish you if other people can’t/won’t work together with you.

What’s great about GW2 is that you’re not getting punished because other people are bad.

And 3 years after release it has proven to be more a flaw than anything else, because it creates this scenario where only one gear set is truly viable in PvE.
The design is there. It would only take a few tweaks to push GW2 into having that gear trinity. In some cases there’s already a class trinity, guardians are sometimes necessary for their reflects for example, warriors for DPS and thieves for skipping past certain dungeon puzzles.

I’m not sure what you’re using as measurement here. What exactly classifies this as a failure?
I’m pretty sure GW2 is a success. It is a financial success and I believe that’s what the developers intended for it.
All games are made for a reason – to sell.

I’m not saying the game couldn’t be pushed into a “trinity of gear” BUT you have to open your mind and understand one thing:

This game was advertised and sold to an audience that in its majority doesn’t want that (this we can deduce from the fact that they are playing a game that doesn’t have that system – and while it could be possible that they are playing something they do not enjoy for other reasons – story, traits – that is unlikely and will probably happen only in a few situations).
Why would the developers turn the game a full 180 degrees to cater to small segment of the player base? Why would you undermine your financial success just because you and others dislike it?

Also there are statements you make that make me question your understanding of the game.

“Warriors are needed for their dps” is one of them.

Rin.1046:

I do not think there is a problem with stat combos in GW2, but at the moment there is a problem with there being no noticable benefits to being a more tanky/supportive role. Defensive stats are effective, but they are not required. However, I do not think they should become required, as that will just be stepping backwards back to the old trinity again.

The only solution I can see to this problem, is to make encounters more challenging, but not to the point where berserker players can no longer tackle them. Make content tough for all stats, but extremely tough for high damage stats. Not impossible, but certainly a lot harder. Make defensive roles more useful, but not essential. Make stuff like dungeon runs go much smoother with defensive roles, without making it impossible for dps roles. Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

At the end of the day stat combos should remain a choice, not become a requirement. If a full team wants to run full zerker builds, then they should be allowed to. But at the same time, they should be seriously challenged when doing content without any supportive players in the group. And that is where GW2 fails at the moment. The challenge balance is not quite right at the moment, and if that could be fixed I do not think there would be any issue.

THIS ^^

Can not +1 enough.

Eurhetemec.9052:

No. You appear to seriously misunderstand the meta.

I understand the meta perfectly. That post referred to LFG listings that identify ‘zerker meta’ that are often made by people who are actually running whatever they please. Just last week I joined a TA PUG and was asked to ping my gear by a flamethrower Engy and staff Necro. A lot of people approximate ‘zerker’ to mean many things. Some just include that hoping to get carried. It varies.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Ten people who like Zerker meta, though? No. Just people who don’t want Holy Trinity. They’re two different groups.

That’s exactly what I meant. Non-trinity parties. I think even people who don’t like the meta have accepted it, albeit grudgingly, because it works. Zerk gear/speed clears suit GW2’s design and reward structures perfectly, imo.

Rin.1046:

I do not think there is a problem with stat combos in GW2, but at the moment there is a problem with there being no noticable benefits to being a more tanky/supportive role. Defensive stats are effective, but they are not required. However, I do not think they should become required, as that will just be stepping backwards back to the old trinity again.

The only solution I can see to this problem, is to make encounters more challenging, but not to the point where berserker players can no longer tackle them. Make content tough for all stats, but extremely tough for high damage stats. Not impossible, but certainly a lot harder. Make defensive roles more useful, but not essential. Make stuff like dungeon runs go much smoother with defensive roles, without making it impossible for dps roles. Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

At the end of the day stat combos should remain a choice, not become a requirement. If a full team wants to run full zerker builds, then they should be allowed to. But at the same time, they should be seriously challenged when doing content without any supportive players in the group. And that is where GW2 fails at the moment. The challenge balance is not quite right at the moment, and if that could be fixed I do not think there would be any issue.

All what u will achieve with this solution is another zerker meta that looks like [4 zerker builds + 1 support build] or 2 support builds (depends from skill lvl of players). And we will have 3 best gear stats instead of 2.

Thaddeus.4891:

The second solution would be to make all gear take at least 1 non dps stats. Ideally, it would be stats like boon duration, condition duration, healing power. And maybe removing ferocity as a stats all together (and balancing stats after to make up for that lost). An engineer that give a lot of vulnerability would want a Power, Precision, Condition duration gear, while a Guardian could be best with a Power, Precision, Healing power and a PS Warrior would take a Power, Precision, Boon Duration gear. It’s a big change and I’m sure that A LOT OF PEOPLE could find holes in it. I’m not even sure I really like this idea. But it’s the only one I see where active defense is still the main source of defense, but we have gear diversity.

This is best of what i’ve seen on forums and it still have problems in it self.

Rin.1046:

I do not think there is a problem with stat combos in GW2, but at the moment there is a problem with there being no noticable benefits to being a more tanky/supportive role. Defensive stats are effective, but they are not required. However, I do not think they should become required, as that will just be stepping backwards back to the old trinity again.

The only solution I can see to this problem, is to make encounters more challenging, but not to the point where berserker players can no longer tackle them. Make content tough for all stats, but extremely tough for high damage stats. Not impossible, but certainly a lot harder. Make defensive roles more useful, but not essential. Make stuff like dungeon runs go much smoother with defensive roles, without making it impossible for dps roles. Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

At the end of the day stat combos should remain a choice, not become a requirement. If a full team wants to run full zerker builds, then they should be allowed to. But at the same time, they should be seriously challenged when doing content without any supportive players in the group. And that is where GW2 fails at the moment. The challenge balance is not quite right at the moment, and if that could be fixed I do not think there would be any issue.

The problem here is that most often those who run “zerker only” are very experienced players. In order to slow them down you have to change the game in a way that makes it more difficult for them to complete.
Because of the game’s active defense system this means applying more pressure from encounters on a party that has a limited amount of active defense thus requiring that they use them more effectively and have a smaller margin of error.

This is fine on paper BUT – when you apply this method you’ll quickly realize that making the content harder for veterans in zerker gear also means making it significantly harder for non-veterans, casual players and newbies.

You are thus going to hit these categories harder than the veterans and I doubt you want to do that to the majority of your player base.

Dungeons are ez pz if you’re a 3year veteran who’s run them hundreds of times.
A friend has just recently started playing GW2 and she can tell you – the dungeons are not easy if all players are new to the game, new to the content and unaware of what to do.

You can’t make the game harder for the best but keep it casual friendly for everyone else.

And this game is designed to be casual friendly and easy.

If you make “supportive players” a requirement for the group you’ve essentially undermined the whole philosophy of GW2 which can be summed up to :

“You won’t have to wait with a description of GLF x class support to go”.

The challenge balance is not right because it is skewed towards the easy side of the spectrum.

@Eurhetemec.9052
Actually it isn’t a matter of opinion at all. The difference in time to kill stuff is a measurable unit and you can objectively compare these times, however how significant you find the time difference is indeed a matter of opinion. Wearing sub optimal gear in optimal conditions is going to add a few seconds, a minute at most to kill times. In the end it will lengthen the entire run by a few minutes, which is not as dramatic as the anti berserker crowd claims. My evidence isn’t the best to support this statement because it compares 2 extremes. But if i tell you that the difference in kill time for belka was 2 minutes, it takes just a little bit of imagination to realise that it won’t be that much if a difference if people weren’t trolling.
I understand where you’re coming from, when you mention that the stats on berserker gear scale with each other. However, capping vuln, capping might, damage multipliers from sigils, runes and traits, fury and banners and using the right rotations, boost your damage by a lot more than any stat choice does. These factors decide the majority of the damage you’ll be dealing, not the gear you’re wearing.
The stuff you mentioned about zerk being easy only applies for super easy content. You can’t brute force bosses in fotm 50 and arah.

Rin.1046:

Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

If dungeons had been designed with that in mind, there’d be far fewer complaints. But the statement is 100% correct.

And full-zerk is only really relevant in dungeons anyway. Many world bosses are better faced with PVT gear, and competitive metas operate completely differently.

So, really, the only “fix” is to double-back on dungeons, examine how rewards are given and how some of the content works. Otherwise, moving forward, it’s mostly going to be world bosses and instanced story content.

Thaddeus.4891:

The second solution would be to make all gear take at least 1 non dps stats. Ideally, it would be stats like boon duration, condition duration, healing power. And maybe removing ferocity as a stats all together (and balancing stats after to make up for that lost). An engineer that give a lot of vulnerability would want a Power, Precision, Condition duration gear, while a Guardian could be best with a Power, Precision, Healing power and a PS Warrior would take a Power, Precision, Boon Duration gear. It’s a big change and I’m sure that A LOT OF PEOPLE could find holes in it. I’m not even sure I really like this idea. But it’s the only one I see where active defense is still the main source of defense, but we have gear diversity.

This does not work. Because they would still be running the equivalent of “zerker” which means best dps – only instead of 3 stats you would only take two.

This solution is basically nerfing our damage and making everything take longer but doesn’t change anything else.

One combo will still be highest dps – the third stat won’t matter at all – and people will take that combo and make it the new " insert stat combo name here meta".

Harper.4173:

Thaddeus.4891:

…. An engineer that give a lot of vulnerability would want a Power, Precision, Condition duration gear, while a Guardian could be best with a Power, Precision, Healing power and a PS Warrior would take a Power, Precision, Boon Duration gear. ….

This does not work. Because they would still be running the equivalent of “zerker” which means best dps – only instead of 3 stats you would only take two.

This solution is basically nerfing our damage and making everything take longer but doesn’t change anything else.

One combo will still be highest dps – the third stat won’t matter at all – and people will take that combo and make it the new " insert stat combo name here meta".

If make as in example then we will have at least more “meta gear set”. And don’t forget that u CAN’T escape from metas – they were and always will be a part of games. Other question is that now we have 2 meta gear sets for PvE and with such change will get at least 3 if we talk only about gear changes and nothing else.

How will there be three? How will you have " more meta sets" when only one strategy can be meta.

And another thing. Someone above (i’m to lazy to search) mentioned that shaman or any other gear must be viable (read meta) in at least 1 dungeon or part of the dungeon. But it is still meta and all u will c is messages in lfg “need shaman ranger for dungeon x” (pick any other profesion u like).

And for some time there is a PvE content where condi builds is much more usefull then power build – any fight where u face husks will be much more faster if you r using condi gear.

@Harper, i hope u read everything u see and don’t troll. Meta stretagy for PvE is “kill everything as fast as u can”. With example above warriors will take boon duration to make more use of their might spreading ( they don’t use condi weapons in PvE now), guardians will take boon duration, engis will take boon or condi duration, necros will take condi and so on with other classes. This is how u get three and we still have same stratagy to kill everything fast.

As u said ( and Thaddeus.4891 before you) this will be a big revamp for game but this is still best option i saw.

The issue is, regardless of your build or gear the mechanics of a fight remain the same all the time.

You have to kill the boss before it kills you. That I think we all can agree on.

The only way to stay alive vs an encounter is by using the skills given to us.

We damage the boss using

Weapon skills
Utility Skills
Elites

We can avoid damage entirely using:

Dodging
Blind
Reflect
Block

We can mitigate the damage using:

Weakness
Protection
Toughness

We can stay alive using

Vitality
Heals
Regeneration

The thing is, if you’re in Zerker or Clerics these facts stay the same. Just because you’re in Zerker doesn’t mean you don’t have access to blocks and heals. Just because you’re in Clerics doesn’t mean you don’t have access to weapon skills or utility skills.

If you’re in soldiers gear “tanking” the boss (assuming he is hitting you), eventually the heals will run out. Eventually you will have to dodge, eventually you will need to blind or heal or use other tools to do kill the boss before it hits you. Just wearing a tanky set of armor doesn’t do much.
If you’re in Knights, you can do exactly the same but perhaps survive a little longer and crit a bit more with a lower health pool.
With a bit more “skill” you can do the exact same thing in Zerker gear, do more damage and stay alive at the same rate. Dodging/blocks/blinds become more heavily relied on and you’re not going to be able to take as many if any hits, but you’re going to do more damage and you’re going to kill the boss a lot faster.

There really is no problem with the Zerker meta other than everyone assuming it’s the only way to do things. It’s not. It’s just, given the state of the game the fastest and more efficient way to do dungeons/fractals.

please note, this post is talking about gear only, not traits/builds

Thaddeus.4891:

The thing is in the last 3 years NOBODY, and there was a lot of people that tried, could come up with an idea to make other gear optimal in PvE.

That’s a pretty impressive bald-faced lie.

There’s no good solution solely based on gear, though.

Jahroots.6791:

That’s exactly what I meant. Non-trinity parties. I think even people who don’t like the meta have accepted it, albeit grudgingly, because it works. Zerk gear/speed clears suit GW2’s design and reward structures perfectly, imo.

Dungeon/Fractal design I agree, it’s the path of least resistance, because of low toughness etc. on monsters. For HoT? We’ll see.

Reward structures? Not so much. Most dungeons reward non-Zerker/Assassin gear, for example. Most gear is non-Zerker/Assassin generally, which means people who want gear rewards focus on the few sources that give Zerker.

Rin.1046:

I do not think there is a problem with stat combos in GW2, but at the moment there is a problem with there being no noticable benefits to being a more tanky/supportive role. Defensive stats are effective, but they are not required. However, I do not think they should become required, as that will just be stepping backwards back to the old trinity again.

The only solution I can see to this problem, is to make encounters more challenging, but not to the point where berserker players can no longer tackle them. Make content tough for all stats, but extremely tough for high damage stats. Not impossible, but certainly a lot harder. Make defensive roles more useful, but not essential. Make stuff like dungeon runs go much smoother with defensive roles, without making it impossible for dps roles. Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

At the end of the day stat combos should remain a choice, not become a requirement. If a full team wants to run full zerker builds, then they should be allowed to. But at the same time, they should be seriously challenged when doing content without any supportive players in the group. And that is where GW2 fails at the moment. The challenge balance is not quite right at the moment, and if that could be fixed I do not think there would be any issue.

Pretty much this. Hoping this is what HoT does.

WGuardian.1028:

And another thing. Someone above (i’m to lazy to search) mentioned that shaman or any other gear must be viable (read meta) in at least 1 dungeon or part of the dungeon. But it is still meta and all u will c is messages in lfg “need shaman ranger for dungeon x” (pick any other profesion u like).

And for some time there is a PvE content where condi builds is much more usefull then power build – any fight where u face husks will be much more faster if you r using condi gear.

The designers of this game specifically said ( and you’d know this if you followed the development or at least read what I wrote above) that they do not want the “GLF 1 more X class X role to go” situation.

Crystallize.8603:

There really is no problem with the Zerker meta other than everyone assuming it’s the only way to do things. It’s not. It’s just, given the state of the game the fastest and more efficient way to do dungeons/fractals.

please note, this post is talking about gear only, not traits/builds

Well-explained but there’s a little more to it – the effectiveness of Tou/Vit/Heal in PvE relative to damage numbers and types of damage is questionable in a way it isn’t in PvP/WvW.

The fact that all the serious enemies tend to rely on slow, heavy attacks means Block/Dodge/etc. have way more value than Tou/Vit/Heal in most Dungeon/Fractal situations.

Rin.1046:

Slow dps players down by making them deal with content more carefully, but do not stop them from doing it.

This is one of the things I think one of my old games did very well with a certain content design choice. They had a lot of stuff that was % based effects on the boss. Be it strait AE damage, Add Spawns, or required mechanics. Thing is GW2 relies on it’s NPCs to trigger these actions instead of the game itself, hence Lupi/Grawl Shaman phase skips. In the old game I’m talking about though we had encounters where say you had 2 adds spawn every 10% on the boss. If you unleashed a massive burn you may be able to take it from 100% to 60% in a couple seconds, such that the adds either hadn’t spawned or hadn’t reached you, but when they did, you’d get 8 adds coming at you instead of just 2.

This made bursting through certain enemies much more risky on top of the already more risky DPS setups. It was still very doable with correct tactics, but it made you consider what you were doing. Some enemies we’d not unleash the massive burns till the end when we knew it would finish it off, opting for a more controlled approach for the first 60% of the fight.

Now, again, I don’t know how they’d translate that type of system over to GW2, seems like the mechanics are different, and with current HP levels on many enemies you can burst them down from 100-0, so it’d render that type of design null anyways.

But, I thought it was worth mentioning it, because it fits what you were talking about, and I liked it very much. As it wasn’t just taking less safety nets, but actually making the content harder.

petyr baelish.9675:

I understand where you’re coming from, when you mention that the stats on berserker gear scale with each other. However, capping vuln, capping might, damage multipliers from sigils, runes and traits, fury and banners and using the right rotations, boost your damage by a lot more than any stat choice does. These factors decide the majority of the damage you’ll be dealing, not the gear you’re wearing.

There’s a lot of truth in this, but much of it is the mindless effect of procs etc. which Zerker works with better than other setups. So other setups don’t all benefit equally.

petyr baelish.9675:

The stuff you mentioned about zerk being easy only applies for super easy content. You can’t brute force bosses in fotm 50 and arah.

Sure, but 99% of dungeon/fractal runs are non-arah, or sub-50.

If course blocks/dodge/invuln have way more value, you need to time when you use them and there is only a limited amount available. Passive stats, on the other hand are always there to cushion the blow when you kitten up. Toughness, healing and vitality are already strong enough in pve, people can already bypass game mechanics by stacking these stats.

WGuardian.1028:

@Harper, i hope u read everything u see and don’t troll. Meta stretagy for PvE is “kill everything as fast as u can”. With example above warriors will take boon duration to make more use of their might spreading ( they don’t use condi weapons in PvE now), guardians will take boon duration, engis will take boon or condi duration, necros will take condi and so on with other classes. This is how u get three and we still have same stratagy to kill everything fast.

As u said ( and Thaddeus.4891 before you) this will be a big revamp for game but this is still best option i saw.

What Harper is trying to say, is that it will still not be different option. The meta will be PS Warrior with Power/Precision/Boon Duration. If you use another set of gear, you won’t be meta. There will have different option for different profession, but only one best option for each profession.

In the end it would be a big revamp that could create other problem and people will still cry about it.

Eurhetemec.9052:

The fact that all the serious enemies tend to rely on slow, heavy attacks means Block/Dodge/etc. have way more value than Tou/Vit/Heal in most Dungeon/Fractal situations.

In an active combat system, active defense should have way more value than passive defense. Even so, said passive defensive gear/builds are more than powerful enough to trivialize a large amount of the games pve content.

Someone mentioned something along the lines of “zerkers should be punished when not taking supportive players”. The point is, they do. The support is gained through active defense, as it should be. Some still seem to be equating “support” with standing at the back of the party spamming heals or taunt/tank/buff, a line of thinking simply not at odds at all with this games combat system (instanced pve).

Harper.4173:

This does not work. Because they would still be running the equivalent of “zerker” which means best dps – only instead of 3 stats you would only take two.

Yes but zerker now is 3 stats out of 3. If it was 2 stats out of 3 (hell it could be 3 stats out of 4, i don’t care). Then people could take zerker and still have a choice left for the 3rd stats which would be support or defensive oriented. Condition Duration could create a problem because maybe Power, Precision, Condition Duration would be the only optimal gear since condition duration is hybrid. It’s a support and dps stats. But now we enter into detail or a undeveloped idea, so….

Harper.4173:

This solution is basically nerfing our damage and making everything take longer but doesn’t change anything else.

It’s nerfing only if they remove ferocity and won’t balance anything at all. Like i said, they could keep ferocity and give us 4 stats gear instead of 3. Or they could remove ferocity and balance things out so the nerf isn’t too high. They could boost power, or they could merge precision and ferocity together. There is a lot of option to limit or eliminate the nerf all together.

Thaddeus.4891:

Harper.4173:

This does not work. Because they would still be running the equivalent of “zerker” which means best dps – only instead of 3 stats you would only take two.

Yes but zerker now is 3 stats out of 3. If it was 2 stats out of 3 (hell it could be 3 stats out of 4, i don’t care). Then people could take zerker and still have a choice left for the 3rd stats which would be support or defensive oriented. Condition Duration could create a problem because maybe Power, Precision, Condition Duration would be the only optimal gear since condition duration is hybrid. It’s a support and dps stats. But now we enter into detail or a undeveloped idea, so….

Harper.4173:

This solution is basically nerfing our damage and making everything take longer but doesn’t change anything else.

It’s nerfing only if they remove ferocity and won’t balance anything at all. Like i said, they could keep ferocity and give us 4 stats gear instead of 3. Or they could remove ferocity and balance things out so the nerf isn’t too high. They could boost power, or they could merge precision and ferocity together. There is a lot of option to limit or eliminate the nerf all together.

It doesn’t actually create more options though, it just shifts from one optimal gear choice to another. Trying to force in one defensive stat for the sake of it seems pointless.

For any given specific content dps/dps/x will be optimal, that will be the meta. A necro going from zerk to dps/dps/condi or a guard going from zerk to dps/dps/boon duration does nothing to increase gear options, it merely sees a shift from one named set to another.

Fenrir.3609:

Eurhetemec.9052:

The fact that all the serious enemies tend to rely on slow, heavy attacks means Block/Dodge/etc. have way more value than Tou/Vit/Heal in most Dungeon/Fractal situations.

In an active combat system, active defense should have way more value than passive defense. Even so, said passive defensive gear/builds are more than powerful enough to trivialize a large amount of the games pve content.

Someone mentioned something along the lines of “zerkers should be punished when not taking supportive players”. The point is, they do. The support is gained through active defense, as it should be. Some still seem to be equating “support” with standing at the back of the party spamming heals or taunt/tank/buff, a line of thinking simply not at odds at all with this games combat system (instanced pve).

True. But the content content is not challenging enough. We don’t really need a guardian or mesmer in most of the current content. We need really need protection or weakness except maybe in fractal 50 melee. We need try to give vigor to the team, we never need to take sigil of energy except in solo, etc. More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

Thaddeus.4891:

WGuardian.1028:

@Harper, i hope u read everything u see and don’t troll. Meta stretagy for PvE is “kill everything as fast as u can”. With example above warriors will take boon duration to make more use of their might spreading ( they don’t use condi weapons in PvE now), guardians will take boon duration, engis will take boon or condi duration, necros will take condi and so on with other classes. This is how u get three and we still have same stratagy to kill everything fast.

As u said ( and Thaddeus.4891 before you) this will be a big revamp for game but this is still best option i saw.

What Harper is trying to say, is that it will still not be different option. The meta will be PS Warrior with Power/Precision/Boon Duration. If you use another set of gear, you won’t be meta. There will have different option for different profession, but only one best option for each profession.

In the end it would be a big revamp that could create other problem and people will still cry about it.

The meta today is berserker or assassin gear (or mix) for all classes. In your system war/guards will have boon meta, engi/necro will have condi meta and so on. Ofc this IS meta as i said above u can’t run from it but at lest u have more options among profesions.

Edit: if we r talking about gear only cause zerker build is not only about gear but about traits and skills on your right side.

Fenrir.3609:

It doesn’t actually create more options though, it just shifts from one optimal gear choice to another. Trying to force in one defensive stat for the sake of it seems pointless.

Well it give more option in the sense that not profession will use the same exact gear. But I know, it doesn’t really change anything. I’m not trying to make people accept this idea, i’m not convinced myself. It’s just the only option that I can see where you don’t have full glass gear as the only optimal choice. Personnally, I’m good with the current system as long as they create trully challenging content and fix condition damage in pve. That’s all i’m asking.

Thaddeus.4891:

More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

You’d need to boost passive stuff like Tou/Vit/Heal to make it even possible with non-Zerker, though, I’d think.

Thaddeus.4891:

True. But the content content is not challenging enough. We don’t really need a guardian or mesmer in most of the current content. We need really need protection or weakness except maybe in fractal 50 melee. We need try to give vigor to the team, we never need to take sigil of energy except in solo, etc. More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

That’s because the content is a) old and b) easy. Neither of which is a problem caused by zerk stats, “the meta” or active combat.

Perhaps if people started making “Heres some suggestions for new challenging content” threads instead of “omg kill zerkers already, my facetank needs to speedrun!” it would be a step in the right direction.

I do agree with you though, we do need more content and more challenging content at that.

petyr baelish.9675:

@Eurhetemec.9052
In the end it will lengthen the entire run by a few minutes, which is not as dramatic as the anti berserker crowd claims.

I just want to point out how hypocritical it is of you to claim that the anti-berzerker crowd is the one claiming there is a huge difference, when in game it’s the berzerker crowd that actively excludes every other build from their LFG as if it made a huge difference.

It’s the berzerker users who consider it big enough a difference to exclude others from their parties, not the other way around. I have never seen a LFG with “valkyrie only” or “knights only”.

Thaddeus.4891:

Fenrir.3609:

Eurhetemec.9052:

The fact that all the serious enemies tend to rely on slow, heavy attacks means Block/Dodge/etc. have way more value than Tou/Vit/Heal in most Dungeon/Fractal situations.

In an active combat system, active defense should have way more value than passive defense. Even so, said passive defensive gear/builds are more than powerful enough to trivialize a large amount of the games pve content.

Someone mentioned something along the lines of “zerkers should be punished when not taking supportive players”. The point is, they do. The support is gained through active defense, as it should be. Some still seem to be equating “support” with standing at the back of the party spamming heals or taunt/tank/buff, a line of thinking simply not at odds at all with this games combat system (instanced pve).

True. But the content content is not challenging enough. We don’t really need a guardian or mesmer in most of the current content. We need really need protection or weakness except maybe in fractal 50 melee. We need try to give vigor to the team, we never need to take sigil of energy except in solo, etc. More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

Agree with that (espacialy with last point) but as we see most content is balanced around lowest skill lvl or almost there. If Anet bring more chalanging content that can’t be bit by moderate or low level skill players we will get tons of rage posts here and in game so at the end content will be nerfed and we are back to " zerker or go home".

Eurhetemec.9052:

Thaddeus.4891:

More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

You’d need to boost passive stuff like Tou/Vit/Heal to make it even possible with non-Zerker, though, I’d think.

You have it backwards. You have access to the same active defenses on defensive gear, passive defenses act as a crutch when you mess up so it’s easier to play in defensive gear. If you manage your kitten properly you can survive forever on active defenses.

Harper.4173:

The problem here is that most often those who run “zerker only” are very experienced players. In order to slow them down you have to change the game in a way that makes it more difficult for them to complete.
Because of the game’s active defense system this means applying more pressure from encounters on a party that has a limited amount of active defense thus requiring that they use them more effectively and have a smaller margin of error.

This is fine on paper BUT – when you apply this method you’ll quickly realize that making the content harder for veterans in zerker gear also means making it significantly harder for non-veterans, casual players and newbies.

You are thus going to hit these categories harder than the veterans and I doubt you want to do that to the majority of your player base.

I agree, if you raise the difficulty for veterans it will of course have a much bigger impact on casual and new players. But then you have to ask yourself, should a group of casuals be able to do a dungeon run as a full team of zerkers? Personally, I feel that full zerker dungeon runs should be in the realms of veteran content, not new and casual content. Dungeon explorable paths, as stated by Anet, are supposed to be challenging content, but if a full group of casual zerkers can do an explorable path dungeons, then something is seriously wrong with the balance.

That said, I think some dungeon paths have a good balance as it is, but not all of them.

Harper.4173:

Dungeons are ez pz if you’re a 3year veteran who’s run them hundreds of times.
A friend has just recently started playing GW2 and she can tell you – the dungeons are not easy if all players are new to the game, new to the content and unaware of what to do.

You can’t make the game harder for the best but keep it casual friendly for everyone else.

And this game is designed to be casual friendly and easy.

This is the thing. You can throw any amount of challenging content in front of players, and providing there is a way to beat it, players will eventually become so good at it that it is no longer challenging. You cannot balance the entire game for veterans, and that is not what I was suggesting. But you can balance different parts of the game for different levels of player. As said above, with the exception of story mode, explorable dungeons are supposed to be the high end challenging content, and should therefore be balanced with that in mind. Other areas of the game, such as story mode dungeons and various open world content, should be balanced with a more casual player in mind.

Harper.4173:

If you make “supportive players” a requirement for the group you’ve essentially undermined the whole philosophy of GW2 which can be summed up to :

“You won’t have to wait with a description of GLF x class support to go”.

The challenge balance is not right because it is skewed towards the easy side of the spectrum.

You are right, and that is what I meant. Supportive roles should not become required. However, they should become more useful.

In more casual content, supportive builds are very effective, and have a more noticable impact on a teams performance. You only have to run a story mode dungeon with new players to see that. But they have hardly any noticable impact on veteran content, and that I think is where the fix is needed.

As others have said, in WvW and PvP other stat combos are more widely used, and the zerker meta is not so much of an issue. And the reason for that is because it is very challenging to play zerker in these game modes. It’s not impossible, but it is more challenging. Also because of how useful defensive stats are in PvP and WvW, many players build to fill different roles besides dps, such as bunkers, frontline melee in zergs, etc. If this kind of challenge could be added to top level PvE content, we would not hear all the complaints about berserker gear.

Hopefully HoT will be able to add some of this challenge, and make other stats combos more useful.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

petyr baelish.9675:

@Eurhetemec.9052
In the end it will lengthen the entire run by a few minutes, which is not as dramatic as the anti berserker crowd claims.

I just want to point out how hypocritical it is of you to claim that the anti-berzerker crowd is the one claiming there is a huge difference, when in game it’s the berzerker crowd that actively excludes every other build from their LFG as if it made a huge difference.

It’s the berzerker users who consider it big enough a difference to exclude others from their parties, not the other way around. I have never seen a LFG with “valkyrie only” or “knights only”.

As I have said before, it’s not the gear that matters (as much) but the mentality and play associated with players that run berserker gear. If a person runs berserker gear it is more likely he’ll run the proper weapons, traits and support, use the right skills and knows what he’s doing.
So they, or at least I and my friends, don’t exclude you for your sub optimal gear but because we assume it’s accompanied by sub optimal play.
edit: and utilities*

How to fix the zerker meta:

Dont join speedclear rooms if you are not running zerker armor

The end.

Why is this kitten so hard for people to wrap their heads around; every time this topic comes up we get 5 pages of people writing paragraphs of nonsense.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Thaddeus.4891:

More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

You’d need to boost passive stuff like Tou/Vit/Heal to make it even possible with non-Zerker, though, I’d think.

Nope. That’s not true. You have plenty of video of full cleric group that unbind their dodge button and clear arah and it’s an easy mode. They just tank and outheal everything Arah can throw at them. Active Defense is independent of your gear. So a zerker guys have as much active defense as a soldier gear. The only difference is that the zerker guys kill stuff faster, while the soldier gear can take more hit in the face.

Rin.1046:

You are right, and that is what I meant. Supportive roles should not become required. However, they should become more useful.

In more casual content, supportive builds are very effective, and have a more noticable impact on a teams performance. You only have to run a story mode dungeon with new players to see that. But they have hardly any noticable impact on veteran content, and that I think is where the fix is needed.

As others have said, in WvW and PvP other stat combos are more widely used, and the zerker meta is not so much of an issue. And the reason for that is because it is very challenging to play zerker in these game modes. It’s not impossible, but it is more challenging. Also because of how useful defensive stats are in PvP and WvW, many players build to fill different roles besides dps, such as bunkers, frontline melee in zergs, etc. If this kind of challenge could be added to top level PvE content, we would not hear all the complaints about berserker gear.

I think this is correct. If I can add to that,

Supportive builds should not be a requirement. But they should be as much a viable choice as classes are.

You can pick any class combination for a dungeon run and be relatively fast, because you’ll have various strategies available that are more or less equally efficient. I have never seen a “warrior only” or “elementalist only” dungeon party like I see “zerk only”.

Likewise, ideally you should also be able to combine various gear types and end up with roughly the same results. Zerker gear should not end up being such a dominant set among the community.

petyr baelish.9675:

Eurhetemec.9052:

Thaddeus.4891:

More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

You’d need to boost passive stuff like Tou/Vit/Heal to make it even possible with non-Zerker, though, I’d think.

You have it backwards. You have access to the same active defenses on defensive gear, passive defenses act as a crutch when you mess up so it’s easier to play in defensive gear. If you manage your kitten properly you can survive forever on active defenses.

It doesn’t matter if some ultra-ninja can do that in an obscure situation, dude. If it’s normal/easy to do that, the actives need nerfs.

Thaddeus.4891:

Eurhetemec.9052:

Thaddeus.4891:

More challenging content that push the limit of our active defence would be a blessing. The type of content that you can’t play zerker if you don’t master your active defence so that not everybody can run full zerker.

You’d need to boost passive stuff like Tou/Vit/Heal to make it even possible with non-Zerker, though, I’d think.

Nope. That’s not true. You have plenty of video of full cleric group that unbind their dodge button and clear arah and it’s an easy mode. They just tank and outheal everything Arah can throw at them. Active Defense is independent of your gear. So a zerker guys have as much active defense as a soldier gear. The only difference is that the zerker guys kill stuff faster, while the soldier gear can take more hit in the face.

Fair enough! It is really ez mode or are they actually using very special builds and classes, though?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Likewise, ideally you should also be able to combine various gear types and end up with roughly the same results. Zerker gear should not end up being such a dominant set among the community.

What would be the point in gear prefixes then?

And let’s say the “rough result” of baseline toughness is not enough for a group of players to survive in pve?