Guild Wars 2

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just in case people are missing this:

Any game scenario in which taking damage is optional and Mob AI is predictable will always favor high damage builds, because Mob patterns can be learned and avoided. There is no way to make tank builds or support builds mandatory for players that have learned the game well enough to not rely on those stats.

A) Yes you absolute could force that. Probably shouldn’t but you could. Nothing says ALL damage has to be optional. That’s not a design principle of GW2 – if it is, provide us with the quote, please.

B) Even after that, you could certainly vastly increase the minimum skill and level of group co-operation required to “not rely” on those stats. They still wouldn’t be “mandatory” for the best-of-the-best, but if they were for 95% of players, that’d be quite a change.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Forcing damage is bad design, forcing mob unpredictability / non telegraph is bad design.

No.

By that logic, PvP is bad design. Yet we constantly hear from people, including, I believe, you, that PvP/WvW is better designed, better balanced and plays better than PvE – and I agree, it is and it does.

But no, unpredictable mobs aren’t bad design.

Forced damage isn’t inherently bad design (you will not be able to argue that it is rationally, I predict, because it’s not a rational case you’re making – prove me wrong if you like) – I will agree that mindlessly forcing lots of damage is crummy – but forcing you to choose when to take damage and inevitably taking some is NOT bad design when you have a heal and so on built into every character.

Non-telegraph is bad design if the damage is significant and intended to be dodged, but if it’s chip-away, then, no, you’re wrong – PvP/WvW is absolutely full of damage which has little-to-know telegraph, it’s just that it’s not high-damage stuff.

By that logic, PvP is bad design.

extremely small population – check
nonexistent esports scene – check
extremely infrequent balance changes – check
one game mode – check

yeah, the pvp in this game is pretty badly designed.

Yet we constantly hear from people, including, I believe, you, that PvP/WvW is better designed

lol

better balanced and plays better than PvE – and I agree, it is and it does.

i agree, the brain afk turret engi builds were so much more interesting than low-man or soloing dungeons, such good play

Forced damage isn’t inherently bad design (you will not be able to argue that it is rationally, I predict, because it’s not a rational case you’re making – prove me wrong if you like) – I will agree that mindlessly forcing lots of damage is crummy – but forcing you to choose when to take damage and inevitably taking some is NOT bad design when you have a heal and so on built into every character.

forced damage in games built around active defense is bad. a player being forced in to deciding which damage they want to mitigate and which they will take is perfectly fine, which is currently how this game operates. compare this to say … fractal agony where it’s basically “you will take this whether you want to or not”.

Dhorghar.5249:

Talyn.3295:

Dhorghar.5249:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

He’s right on everything he says about the meta though.

No, he isn’t

Yes he is. Nemesis is a really good player if not the best necro. He always manages to stay alive when the berserkers are wiping the floor with their dead bodies so he knows his kitten really well.

Nemesis is good in the sense that I find him funny. His videos bring me great humorous joy.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Forcing damage is bad design, forcing mob unpredictability / non telegraph is bad design.

No.

By that logic, PvP is bad design. Yet we constantly hear from people, including, I believe, you, that PvP/WvW is better designed, better balanced and plays better than PvE – and I agree, it is and it does.

Stop mixing up pvp and pve. They are completely different. Thank you.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Forced damage isn’t inherently bad design (you will not be able to argue that it is rationally, I predict, because it’s not a rational case you’re making – prove me wrong if you like) – I will agree that mindlessly forcing lots of damage is crummy – but forcing you to choose when to take damage and inevitably taking some is NOT bad design when you have a heal and so on built into every character.

In trinity mmo with tanks and healers it is completely normal. In gw2, however, devs give you all necessary tools to completely evade all damage from the boss if you are skilled enough. Forcing unavoidable damage ignores combat system and makes no sense.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Non-telegraph is bad design if the damage is significant and intended to be dodged, but if it’s chip-away, then, no, you’re wrong – PvP/WvW is absolutely full of damage which has little-to-know telegraph, it’s just that it’s not high-damage stuff.

You are mixing up dungeons and pvp/wvw again. Stop it please.

I really wish people who want “more choice” in PvE would realize that making PvE more like PvP is not a good idea and won’t happen. Because of a casual player base.

Also – whilst I am all for split PvE vs PvP balancing this won’t happen either because of “e-sports”.

Their design choices have really locked them into a situation – almost all steps taken now in any direction are going to be wrong. Their best course of action is to leave the game as it is.

The game is ultimately fine – but if they try to please everybody ( including those who play GW2 wishing it was WoW but refusing to play WoW instead) will end up pleasing nobody.

Eurhetemec.9052:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I don’t expect HoT to change the complaints much if at all.

If they don’t, HoT has failed to some extent.

Right now, the “endgame” PvE is to a large extent the dungeons, and it’s also the most reliable (if not technically fastest) way to earn cash money.

If that’s still the case in HoT, well, kitten . The “challenging PvE content” should, if they’ve done it right, be both of those things. So the problem will only be if people are excluded from that content for being non-Zerker.

• In what context do most complaints about the meta occur? Dungeons, specifically in reference to pugging and exclusion.
• How many new dungeons will occur in HoT? Iirc, some changes to FotM.
• How many changes to the existing explorable dungeons will accompany HoT? None have been announced. Based on their stance on dungeons, I expect none.
• How much did DT or SW lower dungeon runner population? Not sure, but it had no effect on the meta complaints about dungeons.
• Will HoT contain a lot of content that is , reward-wise, better than SW? Don’t know, kind of doubt it will be any better.

I may be wrong, but that’s where I was getting that supposition.

Harper.4173:

You’re asking to make a game that is already on the casual-easy side of the spectrum even easier and more accessible to players. On paper that might be fine but the problem is if you make the content too easy nothing will force players to improve.

You could bring harder content in the future. Atm there is not much room. Anet could add more onehits, harder to predicts onehits, thats it. Would kill casual groups – even aether already does so. Mainstreamdungeons are AC, COF, TA, SE. I don’t think Anet would add difficult content, would be better to aim for the masses and add content on this level. Or add no instanced content at all, since most players seem to farm SW instead of going for instances.

No – Healers are bad in GW2 because you do not need someone healing.

Not every game out there has a trinity.
There are games in which healer are very helpful, welcome – but not mandatory. Those games did a better job by adding roles which are “nice to have” but no must-have.
Some of these games are really old.
There are hack’n slays which you can play solo or in a team. Without a healer or with a healer. It doesn’t matter. You can use your potion to heal yourself – or have a healer healing you. A healer is sometimes very helpful – for example in games where potions are only giving a strong health regeneration and don’t insta heal you up (now look at warriors healing signet: a insta heal is sometimes helpful for a warrior using this skill). In these hack’n slay games the healer is often more or less a strong melee class with some healingskills, not a trinity fullhealer.

Harper.4173:

The rune idea you propose won’t work – it would be murder in WvW / PvP.

It would not. PVP has seperate runes, WvW could use scaling. When entering as a low level char i also get different stats than in PVE….

This is the best post I’ve ever seen. All replis agaaint it are invalid. #zerk4life

Eurhetemec.9052:

If they don’t, HoT has failed to some extent.

Right now, the “endgame” PvE is to a large extent the dungeons, and it’s also the most reliable (if not technically fastest) way to earn cash money.

If that’s still the case in HoT, well, kitten . The “challenging PvE content” should, if they’ve done it right, be both of those things. So the problem will only be if people are excluded from that content for being non-Zerker.

HoT won’t have any new dungs and most (if not all ) of the content will be open world. To equate endgame with dungeons is too far-fetched since those are nothing but a farming scheme which you can perform pretty easily in silverwastes where gear diversity is pretty extreme for everyone’s liking.

Screw holy trinity when you have zerk trinity? =)

Jockum.1385:

It would not. PVP has seperate runes, WvW could use scaling. When entering as a low level char i also get different stats than in PVE….

They have repeatedly said that they will not change the game in order to give us split balance across game types.
They want the same build to feel the same across PvP, PvE and WvW. The idea of scaling and different runes completely invalidates this core design of the game.

Harper.4173:

They want the same build to feel the same across PvP, PvE and WvW. The idea of scaling and different runes completely invalidates this core design of the game.

Ummm…have you ever been in PVP or WvW?

If you enter PVP you will realize it already has its separate build. Your PVP build will stay the same even if you change your build in PVE. PVP has already sperate runes, sigils etc. Some PVE runes/stats are not available in PVP. For example nomads is not available afaik. Rune of Perplexity is also not available.

If you enter WvW you will realize that your low level char gets higher stats. You get upscaled to level 80. You might be weaker since upscaling won’t work very well, but you got way higher stats than in PVE.

So you’re saying that these, already ingame existing mechanics, are completely invalidating the core design of the game? I don’t think so.

The reason zerk is the best is because all mobs die faster to it. If you make some mobs die faster to condi, or make some fights about survival instead of dps, then you effectively changed away from a zerk meta.

Tirien.1326:

Screw holy trinity when you have zerk trinity? =)

Based on them working on conditions, we’ll have the trinity of Berserker, Assassin, and Rabid in a bit.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Tirien.1326:

Screw holy trinity when you have zerk trinity? =)

Based on them working on conditions, we’ll have the trinity of Berserker, Assassin, and Rabid in a bit.

More like: Berserker, Assassin, Rampager, Sinister, Carrion and Rabid.

Rin.1046:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Tirien.1326:

Screw holy trinity when you have zerk trinity? =)

Based on them working on conditions, we’ll have the trinity of Berserker, Assassin, and Rabid in a bit.

More like: Berserker, Assassin, Rampager, Sinister, Carrion and Rabid.

The meta is bloating at a rapid pace.

Here is one stop using zerker

boomersooner.4612:

Here is one stop using zerker

What should Engineer and Mesmer switch to? Their meta is already Assassins.

Jockum.1385:

Harper.4173:

They want the same build to feel the same across PvP, PvE and WvW. The idea of scaling and different runes completely invalidates this core design of the game.

Ummm…have you ever been in PVP or WvW?

If you enter PVP you will realize it already has its separate build. Your PVP build will stay the same even if you change your build in PVE. PVP has already sperate runes, sigils etc. Some PVE runes/stats are not available in PVP. For example nomads is not available afaik. Rune of Perplexity is also not available.

If you enter WvW you will realize that your low level char gets higher stats. You get upscaled to level 80. You might be weaker since upscaling won’t work very well, but you got way higher stats than in PVE.

So you’re saying that these, already ingame existing mechanics, are completely invalidating the core design of the game? I don’t think so.

You seem to not understand me. It’s not about the build staying the same in PvP when I go to PvE.
It is about Anet wanting things to feel the same and consistent across these game types – they want a GS/LB warrior with the same traits, same runes, sigils and gear to feel consistent across all these three modes. They want you to feel you’re playing the same thing – not a completely different one each time you switch between these modes. I hope that clears it up.

PVP has already sperate runes, sigils

Sure – they aren’t the same runes you have on your armor BUT they work in exactly the same way.

A superior rune of strength works the same in PVE as it does in PVP.

And I get what you’re saying about perplex runes and nomad’s but I think that these things are an exception.
I personally would enjoy a split balance between PvP and PvE ( for completely different reasons than you would). But they’ve said it numerous times – ain’t gonna happen.

Also what does upscaling have to do with different balancing across game modes? What does upscaling have to do with a the introduction of a rune that would break the game? I still don’t get it.

Harper.4173:

Also what does upscaling have to do with different balancing across game modes? What does upscaling have to do with a the introduction of a rune that would break the game? I still don’t get it.

If Anet adds a handful runes which are PVE only and not available in PVP it won’t change too much. There are already runes which are PVE only, a few more won’t make much difference.
If Anet decides to “scale players down” or change stats a bit when entering WvW because a rune adds too much stats: it won’t make much difference. Atm Anet changes stats of players entering WvW. So it is already existing and nobody cares.
I see no problems with a set of runes changing your stats, since everything it needs to keep WvW or PVP balanced exists already in game.
When running a level 20 char and I’m switching to WvW my build feels the same. When entering a dungeon and I’m getting downscaled: my build feels the same.
So I don’t share your opinion: GW2 has everything to handle such a rune without causing imbalance or changing the feeling of your build.

Nobody cares because upscaled players are so underpowered they’re nothing but free kills.

Even if the technology to implement it could be used – it is still fundamentally a terrible idea.

anabasis.7346:

Thanks for your answers guys but none of your posts address mine. A solution it’s not needed because the zerker meta it’s not a problem.

I agree. There are trade offs with zerker gear just like every other set of gear.

I’m confused. There was just a thread titled the same as this thread. It was merged into another thread that was titled almost the same. And now this thread which is a bit older. So many threads on this. If you don’t like it don’t join it on the lfg is my opinion on the matter.

Dhorghar.5249:

There wouldn’t be any threads if the zerker meta wasn’t a issue.

There is quite a difference between the “perception” of a problem and an actual problem…. Granted, if enough players “believe” there is an issue then that “belief” is the real issue that Anet must address. That does not change the fact that techncially an actual “problem” really only exists in some number of players imagination. Keep in mind that a couple of dozen players complaining on a message board (that likely represents less than 5% of the actual player base) does not make that “number” significant.

The only places in the game where you are pressured into this “zerker meta” is in Dungeon speed running…..Anet should ruin the rest of he game so a guy in Cleric gear will be happily accepted in a nitch game play mode?

The forum glitched out my previous solution.

The problem with the zerker meta is that the game doesn’t punish the drawback of running full zerker as opposed to other types of damage. The solution is to introduce mechanics that do that. Before doing that we need to identify the drawbacks of the meta:

1. Durability: zerkers aren’t durable. They can dish the damage but can’t take it.
2. Condition damage: zerkers don’t condi-damage intentionally. Some skills may apply condis incidentally.
3. Healing: There is relatively no healing in a berserker build.
4. They rely on direct hits for damage.

With these drawbacks Anet can introduce mechanics into dungeons which take advantage of the drawbacks.

Mechanic 1: heavy chill effect, or new chill effect
Introducing a new chill or heavy use of it will reduce the durability of a zerker set to an extreme level. Zerkers rely on dodging attacks to make up for the missing durability. Having an effect that reduces energy for dodge rolls makes it harder for the zerker to thrive without backup from a healer or condi cleanser. A boss could use a “chemical” effect if they’re not supposed to apply chills directly.

Mechanic 2: Physical damage reduction buff
The boss that uses this would have a heavy armor look but be vulnerable to conditions. Players now have to make heavy use of DOTS while dodging the boss’s attacks. The boss should also come with a self healing effect, potentially dropping an AOE that does Heals over time on it which the players need to kite the boss out of (thinking of fights from FF14). This requires the players to break their stack and move the boss. Maintaining poison and bleed on such a boss is crucial to defeat it.

Mechanic 3: Large area damage over time
Healing sets won’t see use unless there is a pressure mechanic. The simplest way to make healing useful is to create a large area effect damage over time. Self heals would be ineffective against it while players using healing sets can compensate for it. Suddenly a mace/shield guardian in half cleric becomes effective. A boss using this mechanic could double up on it by having a debuff that reduces the effectiveness of self healing from the healing skill slot. The boss should employ some slight physical damage reduction as well (or broadcast weakness frequently) to require the use of healer/condi cleanser to defeat it.

Mechanic 4: Enhanced retaliation
This kinda goes with mechanic 2. I imagine this boss as one that has a lot of spikes on it, either in armor or on skin. The enhanced retaliation is up constantly and does a significant amount of damage when the boss is hit with a melee attack. (2000-4000 damage per hit). The boss can be ranged down and damaged with conditions. It will apply regen to itself as well on regular intervals (like a spiky skale or something).

Bonus mechanic: Enemy Gated Content
Add check points to dungeons where players must defeat certain trash mobs to spawn the content following them. This prevents the glitch/skip mentality to an extent. Bosses will protect the path behind them as well. The players must defeat these trash or bosses to proceed in the dungeon content regardless of any glitch they know.

Bonus Mechanic 2: Call to Arms
Bosses for each “Act” of a dungeon path would also come equipped with a “call to arms” skill. This skill summons trash mobs to the boss for backup which were not previously defeated on the path leading up to the boss. There may be some trash mobs which the dungeon design requires the player to sneak past but otherwise they’ll come running and make the boss kill nearly impossible.

Trash mobs may carry any of mechanics 1-4 in a reduced form to promote a balanced party.

Harper.4173:

Lots of non-blamey and seemingly sound thinking edited

I filter people based on gear not because of damage but because of mindset.
I want to play with people like myself – logically people who use the gear I use, play the build I play are more likely to be similar to me than someone who doesn’t.

All right. You get a pass ;D

Do the people that dislike the Zerker meta start their own groups? Cause thats the best way to not have a meta group just say “all are welcome” and you’re done. Or do they mean “I want to be allowed to play whatever I want but I want the other 4 people to play Zerker and rush me through – but they keep kicking me”

There is no reason to have a problem with a PvE meta if you just make a group with other nonmeta people.

I do however support better PvE design and encounters – this may indirectly cause a change in meta but asking for Zerker just “not to be a thing” is ridiculous. Btw if a more challenging PvE design is done it will also have its own meta and be just as strict at enforcing it – snowflakes will still not get groups for it.

Swagger.1459:

anabasis.7346:

Thanks for your answers guys but none of your posts address mine. A solution it’s not needed because the zerker meta it’s not a problem.

I agree. There are trade offs with zerker gear just like every other set of gear.

Tradeoffs on other sets of gear are much bigger (you lose more for far less gain) than in zerkers. Still, i agree, the zerker meta is not a problem. It’s merely a symptom of a bigger underlying issue. The real problem lies in fact that the gear stat system is simply not designed for the active combat mechanics we have in this game. It’s almost as if those two things were made by different groups that had no communication with each other. As it is, both systems use completely different (and conflicting) underlying principles, so it’s no wonder that when they meet, it creates a mess.

Astralporing.1957:

Tradeoffs on other sets of gear are much bigger (you lose more for far less gain) than in zerkers.

No it’s not. It’s been demonstrate time and time again that the trade off from zerkers isn’t bigger than other gear. That’s just not true at all. If that was the case, no other gear would work in PvP except Zerker and it’s just not the case. But in PvE, zerker work so well with the system that it appear like it.

Astralporing.1957:

The real problem lies in fact that the gear stat system is simply not designed for the active combat mechanics we have in this game. It’s almost as if those two things were made by different groups that had no communication with each other. As it is, both systems use completely different (and conflicting) underlying principles, so it’s no wonder that when they meet, it creates a mess.

I can agree with that. In PvE only dps, active defense and support (a little bit CC) are worth something, but of these important part of the PvE game, only dps is improved by gear stats. That’s why zerker is so prevalent. But if personally, I don’t see it as a problem, I can see why some people do.

the problem is the way stats work Attack>Armor then theres the fact professions have 3 tiers of armor
no matter how you build someone with serker will always melt you in seconds with the only exception of warriors and guardians probably and even those will melt if they are careless

If I add into this:
I have 1 of each profession, all characters have 3 armors, Support, DPS and CC, tho vary in profession, where some have possibility of being combination of two or more.

My main character is a Necromancer, which has Healer/Condition-, Burst Direct Dmg/lifesteal- and Condition/CC armors.

My condition builds usually are left in the background.
Especially my main character, which is a Necromancer, who has very little use, only used in Dry Top and Silverwastes right now, due to heavy focus with conditions than Direct dmg (Tho I use a direct dmg build, but it involves heavy life steal components and usually involves multiple weaker hits to boost the life steal and direct dmg DPS).
Unfortunately, due to limitations of conditions (especially weaker spam conditions overriding my strong power conditions) and all events outside DT and SW on open world PvE, especially when mobs simply up their damage per hit and HP by insane amounts, HP is also the defense against conditions, since conditions deal damage up to certain rates and is limited by time, usually mobs have no survivability against direct dmg, so my conditions never deal much damage (thankfully the few times I did use my necromancer on group events, the dealt damage was enough to give me rewards, tho overall experience was “whats the point of using conditions and defenses, when I can use Direct dmg and kill everything faster than they can hurt me”.

My direct dmg builds have use every where, and they literally shred foes before they do anything to me, Cursed Shore has become the “farm” map, since I can simply wander through it and direct dmg DPS everything (except group event mobs) out of my way and gather the nodes…
Except in Dry Top and Silverwastes where I have to change the build to include defenses against dmg, going full Direct Dmg DPS is 99% suicide…