Guild Wars 2

Jski.6180:

SkiTz.4590:

Ingame sales will drop even more once the new set of MMOs release (upcoming wildstar, ESO, EQN, etc)

If anet doesnt fix this “no rewards for skilled gameplay” or any true viable endgame (most ppl just doing WvW for now but I have feeling those new set of MMOs will have far better mass scale pvp than zerg vs zerg fest that is infested in wvw

The thing is ESO (if you do not want super lag of cant attk at all and dieing 5 mins after getting hit) and Wildstar (40 players max) are smaller. No real info about the mmorpg part of EQN though.

Aye, while I haven’t checked out ESO’s pvp to say, it is still developing and changes are more than likely to come so its a bit early to judge I would say…

and 40 player max, I would love something like that personally. That shows actual team work where groups have to split up and perform different objectives…
This quote from a wildstar beta tester since alpha:
when there are 40 on a side there will be multiple objectives so they will be forced to break up into smaller groups. In a group of 5 the melee can survive long enough to get into range and healers have time to heal.
So expect the 40 v 40 war plots to really be a bunch of 5 v 5 battles in the same zone.

This is something I would enjoy very much

I’m just saying, after 1.5 years of mindless zerging (whoever has the bigger zerg will win lol) will it ever change from that? its going to get boring for many players (if it hasn’t already)

I play pretty casually, I’ve been working on my legendary for last 6 or more months, I’m not rushing anywhere, but I would like to make it as soon as I can.

I log in for perhaps 2 hours max/day, and not every day, and I hate mind numbingly easy spam auto attack content, that’s why I’m mostly playing WvW or Fractals.

This game doesn’t reward hard content properly.
Just a few minutes ago I finished another FOTM run, 38. and I got less than 3G in money this time.

Naqaj.6219:

Xae Isareth.1364:

If you think about what loot was for in other MMOs, you get more loot to get stronger to get more loot, so, there really wasn’t much of a point either.

Well, in most previous MMOs, you needed the gear progression to get access to new content. That was the point of gear. That logic doesn’t translate to GW2 though (and I don’t miss it tbh.)

But after you hit the new content and got your gear from that. What was the point? People raided new raids everyday, there no content after that point.

For most MMOs, major expansions don’t come for up to years at a time.

Well they should just add a daily gold reward based on each fractal like they did for dungeons. You get the gold reward when you complete that specific fractal. The reward should also reasonably scale based on the fractal level but still be daily and not tier based.

SkiTz.4590:

Jski.6180:

SkiTz.4590:

Ingame sales will drop even more once the new set of MMOs release (upcoming wildstar, ESO, EQN, etc)

If anet doesnt fix this “no rewards for skilled gameplay” or any true viable endgame (most ppl just doing WvW for now but I have feeling those new set of MMOs will have far better mass scale pvp than zerg vs zerg fest that is infested in wvw

The thing is ESO (if you do not want super lag of cant attk at all and dieing 5 mins after getting hit) and Wildstar (40 players max) are smaller. No real info about the mmorpg part of EQN though.

Aye, while I haven’t checked out ESO’s pvp to say, it is still developing and changes are more than likely to come so its a bit early to judge I would say…

and 40 player max, I would love something like that personally. That shows actual team work where groups have to split up and perform different objectives…
This quote from a wildstar beta tester since alpha:
when there are 40 on a side there will be multiple objectives so they will be forced to break up into smaller groups. In a group of 5 the melee can survive long enough to get into range and healers have time to heal.
So expect the 40 v 40 war plots to really be a bunch of 5 v 5 battles in the same zone.

This is something I would enjoy very much

I’m just saying, after 1.5 years of mindless zerging (whoever has the bigger zerg will win lol) will it ever change from that? its going to get boring for many players (if it hasn’t already)

ESO out very soon there only so much that can be fixed one thing they cant fix is the cost to putting down sieges as in there is no cost at all every one MUST have sieges on them at all times in ESO rvr or they are not as good as others who do have them. The size of rvr maps in ESO is another bad chose by them its going to take too long for ppl with out horse to get into a real fight even with horse it takes 30 min on some accounts to get to places. Its a walking simulator. As things stand i would not even call what ESO has as PvP its an RvR or AvA ESO has no true pvp system.

The problem about 40 vs 40 in Wildstar is that you will only have a few group that can pull off 40 ppl and because there is a limited number on each side there will be a means of cutting a lot of ppl who are not “up to a stander.” So if your not with that group on day one or do not know a large organization this 40 vs 40 is something your not going to do. The other part of pvp a lot of ppl are saying is more of like battle fields in WoW and i guess that a bad thing i have no ideal.

Everyone treats Wow references like the plague which I find interesting.

In 10 yrs not a single game has come close to having as many players nor putting out as much content as wow.

To date – It is still the most played and arguably best bang for the buck game on the market.

It’s also pulls off being the most casual game and can be the most hardcore game depending on how you want to play it.

All I’m saying is it did more things right then pretty much any other game on the market currently and probably still why it has more players then most mmo’s combined.

It just annoys me that people treat success so oddly.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

work != play.

brush us off with sneering comments about casual and carebears all you want… anyone repeatedly doing something they don’t enjoy for a reward they don’t want/need is kind of insane. Especially if they paid to do it.

It’s not like the rewards are any kind of surprise once you’re at scale 44, you already KNOW the reward isn’t enough to offset your time/effort and yet you do it anyway, over and over.

But this time it’ll be different!

Isn’t that what people who habitually play slot machines tell themselves?

Azreell.1568:

Everyone treats Wow references like the plague which I find interesting.

In 10 yrs not a single game has come close to having as many players nor putting out as much content as wow.

To date – It is still the most played and arguably best bang for the buck game on the market.

It’s also pulls off being the most casual game and can be the most hardcore game depending on how you want to play it.

All I’m saying is it did more things right then pretty much any other game on the market currently and probably still why it has more players then most mmo’s combined.

It just annoys me that people treat success so oddly.

I hated WoW after playing it for a little more than a year, not because it was an objectively bad game, but because it was a subjectively bad game. As to bang-for-buck, I’ve played GW2 for about the same amount of time I played WoW, spent $140 on GW2 and $260 on WoW and enjoyed GW2 more. My take on WoW’s success was that of the old cow pie theory. “Eat cow pie, millions of flies can’t be wrong.” On the other hand, one could apply the same theory to the herd events in GW2. Lots of players do them, ergo they must be good.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Naqaj.6219:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The problem is though, what would you call rewarding loot?

Personally I wouldn’t call loot rewarding at all, period. I don’t think you can make loot rewarding in the long term in this game due to how it is designed, because there’s just no real need to have it the way there used to be in previous MMOs.

That’s the big problem for Arenanet to solve. Players notice there’s something lacking to do once character progression is finished. They’ve learned in other MMOs that the the thing to do now is to get more loot, so that’s what they ask for. But do you really need it for anything? How satisfying is it really to get exotic drops for a character who is already halfway geared in ascendent? Yeah, you can always sell them, but for what? To get more gold to buy … what exactly?

All sorts of reasons. Buy cosmetics, work on legendaries, or even just hoarding gold for the sake of hoarding gold.

If you think about what loot was for in other MMOs, you get more loot to get stronger to get more loot, so, there really wasn’t much of a point either.

Personally I just like collecting gold. Its the same in every MMO I’ve played, I never really had anything I wanted in mind when I play and even if something catches my eye, I’d still make even more gold after I got that item.

Exactly. Other MMOs usually have an ‘endgame’ that consists of difficult stuff that gives you better gear. You then use said gear to do other stuff that requires better gear. There you get gear that’s better again. Rinse, repeat.
The ‘progression’ some people seem to feel there is purely illusional. If you want to argue like that, everything you do in every game is pointless in the end. You either come to a point where you ‘did everything’ and it’s over, or you have an endless treadmill of better loot for events for better loot for events for better loot.

While I understand the frustration of not being rewarded appropriately for hard content (which I find a problem in GW2 as well, hence so many people just running the trains/zergfests), you could ask what the point of that is as well. You want ascended gear? A player with a character in full ascended will say ‘what for? I got all I needed’.
GW2 is about cosmetics and some skins are highly desired simply because they’re rare. Why are they rare? Because they have an inherently low chance of dropping. Introducing tokens would diminish that, unless you make them so grindtastic that it still takes forever, granted.
In GW2 you can basically do anything once you hit 80. And the game, at least in my opinion, is about the world, the exploration, the atmosphere. That’s how it was designed and that’s probably one of its strengths that is completely ignored by the majority of players that just want to see numbers grow. For those we got Ascended Gear added, for those we got Fractals with ever increasing difficulty.
But herein lies the problem, too. At 80 you can do anything, you don’t need the best gear to do most of it. Player skill will always count more than simple gear statistics (which can also be frustrating when you spec for high defense in PVE because most of the time it’s simply unnecessary). So pretty much everyone can do anything and drop any kind of loot. If they all had tokens / guaranteed drops, many things would lose the appeal since it’s about looks and not statistics. And then said items would be like the exotics you just sell because you find them useless.

Unless GW2 fundamentally changes core components, I don’t think a better reward system would change anything, unfortunately. And while I don’t mean to make it sound as if the OP has no right to complain, personally, I rather have things stay the way they are for the most part. Maybe increase the drop chances for higher level fractals / difficult events, though for some people that won’t change anything either.

Azreell.1568:

Everyone treats Wow references like the plague which I find interesting.

The reason why is most likely the way they keep those players. A lot of people have already referred to ‘Skinner boxes’, ‘hamster wheels’, ‘carrot and stick’…
WoW was very successful thanks to using psychological methods of influencing people.
They’re like the tabacco of the gaming industry (I do not smoke for a reason ^^).

ArenaNet is doing a hell of a good job at bringing about the same, but if that’s positive is all up to you.

Sirendor.1394:

Azreell.1568:

Everyone treats Wow references like the plague which I find interesting.

The reason why is most likely the way they keep those players. A lot of people have already referred to ‘Skinner boxes’, ‘hamster wheels’, ‘carrot and stick’…
WoW was very successful thanks to using psychological methods of influencing people.
They’re like the tabacco of the gaming industry (I do not smoke for a reason ^^).

ArenaNet is doing a hell of a good job at bringing about the same, but if that’s positive is all up to you.

At least in my opinion – Anything I ever did in Wow I felt rewarded for and continued to play because I enjoyed the continued content which I found entertaining and the continues loot which improved my characters performance.

So far in GW2 – there hasn’t been a single thing in which I felt I was adequately rewarded for. The same grind is here – the difference being the total lack of a rewarding feeling for it.

Azreell.1568:

Sirendor.1394:

Azreell.1568:

Everyone treats Wow references like the plague which I find interesting.

The reason why is most likely the way they keep those players. A lot of people have already referred to ‘Skinner boxes’, ‘hamster wheels’, ‘carrot and stick’…
WoW was very successful thanks to using psychological methods of influencing people.
They’re like the tabacco of the gaming industry (I do not smoke for a reason ^^).

ArenaNet is doing a hell of a good job at bringing about the same, but if that’s positive is all up to you.

At least in my opinion – Anything I ever did in Wow I felt rewarded for and continued to play because I enjoyed the continued content which I found entertaining and the continues loot which improved my characters performance.

So far in GW2 – there hasn’t been a single thing in which I felt I was adequately rewarded for. The same grind is here – the difference being the total lack of a rewarding feeling for it.

I’m not saying WoW delivers bad content, most likely not, but behaviorism is one of their driving success factors. Not everyone in the gaming industry is a heartless scavenger of profits, there are people with ideals and ideas who care more about a good game. I’m sure there are people like those in Blizzard, and they probably give a lot to bring good content that feels worth completing. Doing a dungeon can feel perfectly satisfying but at the same time be just a means to an end (with a goal placed outside of itself).

Oh and I certainly do not want to discourage members of ArenaNet, because I’m sure there are people with a vision there too, who do their best to bring a good game. A lot could be improved though.

The main problem you seem to deal with is that if you make everything a lot less grindy and a lot more rewarding, everyone will blast right through the game, leaving nothing to be done but pvp/role-playing/socializing/some high-level pve.

Sirendor.1394:

Azreell.1568:

Sirendor.1394:

Azreell.1568:

Everyone treats Wow references like the plague which I find interesting.

The reason why is most likely the way they keep those players. A lot of people have already referred to ‘Skinner boxes’, ‘hamster wheels’, ‘carrot and stick’…
WoW was very successful thanks to using psychological methods of influencing people.
They’re like the tabacco of the gaming industry (I do not smoke for a reason ^^).

ArenaNet is doing a hell of a good job at bringing about the same, but if that’s positive is all up to you.

At least in my opinion – Anything I ever did in Wow I felt rewarded for and continued to play because I enjoyed the continued content which I found entertaining and the continues loot which improved my characters performance.

So far in GW2 – there hasn’t been a single thing in which I felt I was adequately rewarded for. The same grind is here – the difference being the total lack of a rewarding feeling for it.

I’m not saying WoW delivers bad content, most likely not, but behaviorism is one of their driving success factors. Not everyone in the gaming industry is a heartless scavenger of profits, there are people with ideals and ideas who care more about a good game. I’m sure there are people like those in Blizzard, and they probably give a lot to bring good content that feels worth completing. Doing a dungeon can feel perfectly satisfying but at the same time be just a means to an end (with a goal placed outside of itself).

Oh and I certainly do not want to discourage members of ArenaNet, because I’m sure there are people with a vision there too, who do their best to bring a good game. A lot could be improved though.

The main problem you seem to deal with is that if you make everything a lot less grindy and a lot more rewarding, everyone will blast right through the game, leaving nothing to be done but pvp/role-playing/socializing/some high-level pve.

In a theme park game you need progression of some type because if not players will get bored and leave.

If this was a sand box with some sand box tools for players I think we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

I truly believe they missed the boat in terms of which direction they should have taken this game when designing it. Sand box would have fit this so much better.

Why are we talking about this in 3 threads? xD They all start to come down to a similar conclusion right now. :P

Paul.4081:

Dalanor.5387:

Pie Flavor.1647:

the content that actually challenges you and puts your skill into test is not very rewarding (PvP, fractals, etc…) yet the mindless content designed only to keep you playing the game endlessly like a drone is the most rewarding (dungeons, LS)

And people log back every 2 weeks for their shiny. Working as intended.

Found a pic of the player with the most achievement points in GW2. Here he is enjoying the LS.

Doesn’t matter had s … shiny.

To reply to the Op,

Yes the reward is currently abysmal. One of the main reason is that it does not scale properly at all.

Imo, you should be rewarded for many factors which are:

1.Time spent
2. Difficulty of the content
3. Size of the team

Now, with that there should also be added rewards and the rng of certain items should actually fixed. Right now it feels that the valuable drop you can obtain in fractal is almost as rare as obtaining a precursor haha.

But yeah. Rewards are currently abysmal in many area of the game. But it is worse in fractals and dungeons Imo.

OldSomalia.6180:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

OldSomalia.6180:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Nick.6972:

Just finished FOTM scale 44.
Almost 2 hours.

Did you have fun?

Don’t pull the fun card. This is a cop-out.

It seemed like a pretty sturdy argument towards the high-end Fractal community (those at level 80, or even just 50-60+) who were enraged about progression rollback.

“I worked hard to get here!” they’d say.
“But the fun was your reward so it’s okay!” the hypercasuals would retort.

But he’s not addressing that.

That’s why I didn’t address him as an aggressor.

I was more interested in using what he said as a social commentary illustrating how an argument can suit both sides of a debate depending on the current, and as you pointed out, very differing contexts.

Ha. I must have misunderstood, then. Apologies.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vol.7601:

GW2 needs to move from an RNG reward system to a token system + RNG systems.

So if you do lvl 50 fractals and want your greatsword, they can make it cost 30 tokens and reward you with 1 each successful run, while still maintaining a rare drop rate of greatswords.

The problem is that then you got people who wants RNG for whatever reason.

When I suggested that Tequatl should drop unique tokens to buy his skins and ascended boxes with, I got quite a few replies about how RNG makes the rewards exciting.

I guess across the MMO industry, the devs must be quite confused about this issue overall, because if everyone hates RNG that much, why do raids still operate ona RNG basis for drops in most MMOs?

On this topic, I think different fractals should give different rewards. I mean, Jade Maw is clearly not as difficult as the other boss fractals, and thus is illogical to have it give out the same rewards. Same applies to dredge, and etc.

Because the drops from a raid function differently.

If I go kill Garrosh Hellscream in WoW right now in 10 man normal, he has a certain loot table. 90% of these items are top tier items. They’re not junk or things to just be crafted.

If I kill Tequatl I get greens, greens and more greens with a single rare on top. That’s where the system fails.

Edit: Also, WoW has a Streakbreakers system. GW2 doesn’t. If I got play WoW, after about 5 times of failing to get items I need, it will give me a generically useful item. It may not be optimal, but it’ll be useful. Think of as though you’re running Zerks, and then, after five runs of random greens, you get a Valkyrie or Assassin’s stat-set weapon. In GW2, there are people who have done Tequatl several times in a single day and have had really nothing to show for it, save for their TTS tag and Sunbringer Title – neither of which are Particularily interestingly strange or valuable (No hate intended to Tequatl Guilds by the way when I mean that.)