Guild Wars 2

Hence why I usually post LFGs that say “meta zerker ping gear 3.5k AP” or something. It basically reduces the number of people I don’t want to play with down to zero, and I have stress free runs. You would be pretty hard pressed to find someone who runs 20+ dungeons a day and isn’t in ascended or at least exotic berserker gear; I find it a better “metric” than AP.

Why stop at AP? It’s annoying that every group I see has war, war, war, war. I have a war but I main on a thief and he is superior in most dungeons. However if I join a zerk group they sometimes kick me because of my class. I agree that a group needs balance but in most cases its player skill.

I would rather there is some form of player rating introduced that rates the group as a whole after the dungeon. It can’t be that hard to introduce a scoring system based on time in the dungeon and wipes etc.

Fluffball.8307:

Hence why I usually post LFGs that say “meta zerker ping gear 3.5k AP” or something. It basically reduces the number of people I don’t want to play with down to zero, and I have stress free runs. You would be pretty hard pressed to find someone who runs 20+ dungeons a day and isn’t in ascended or at least exotic berserker gear; I find it a better “metric” than AP.

I dunno, just because I choose to run (on my own characters) exotics as a minimum still doesn’t make me anything special, and it doesn’t make the player next to me who is “just” using rare’s a bad player just because they haven’t got enough gold or high enough in crafting yet to kit themselves out better. Obvs it’s highly recomended to go in with the highest gear you can get, but like the AP it just isn’t the be all and end all in my experience of observing other players. If they know their build and how it works and can play to it’s advantages that’s good enough for me. /shrug

Oh ha, the thought of someone using rares never even crossed my mind. I’ve never seen that. It would be really weird since a single day or two of dungeon running would net you enough money to buy an exotic set, and you wouldn’t put scholar runes on rares. I just meant berserker gear in general; no one runs 20+ dungeons a day not in berserker gear (or assassins for some, and whatever the heck meta engis are supposed to use, you get the point.)

Fluffball.8307:

Oh ha, the thought of someone using rares never even crossed my mind. I’ve never seen that. It would be really weird since a single day or two of dungeon running would net you enough money to buy an exotic set, and you wouldn’t put scholar runes on rares. I just meant berserker gear in general; no one runs 20+ dungeons a day not in berserker gear (or assassins for some, and whatever the heck meta engis are supposed to use, you get the point.)

Refering mostly to those who have done the dungeons enough times to be familiar with one or two specific paths but have only had the time to do around 2 dungeons a day at most and haven’t been doing so for the same length of time as I. They aren’t all that uncommon believe it or not. Also applies to the AP again. And you might call them “noobs” or rookies etc, but all they really need is a fraction of your overall game time to show them what to do and the time thereafter on their own to accumulate the gold/armour/AP/whatever and they would be fairly competent. But perhaps that’s the difference between that sort of player in that situation in your guild vs that sort of player in that situation in a PuG. It’s true you are more likely to have patience with the guildies. But personally I don’t mind either, as I said earlier in this thread, imho taking them in anyway is worth it, even if it’s only so that if they happen to join your pug next time they will be better for doing it the 1st time, and you’ll have a better 2nd run with them. That is easily one of the best ways for making not so good players into great players.

But sigh we could go on ad nauseum at this rate, so let’s just agree to disagree.

I don’t think we’re even disagreeing with anything. I will often show newbies dungeon paths. If I want to play for realsies in a stress-free manner, I clear several dungeons with people in ascended berserker gear.

Semi on topic funny story, when I was trying to learn to solo Arah, I added all of the Arah mentors to my friends list and named them “Arah Mentor number 1” and etc. Now sometimes when I make a LFG, someone will turn up named “Arah mentor number 1” instead of “Billy Tom” or whatever their real name is.

Best indicator would be individual titles for 50 runs of either a specific dungeon or perhaps even a specific path.

Or whatever number might be adequate, I don’t think I’ve done 50 in total

Isn’t there a speedrun megaguild somewhere? That would solve most of these “I’m selfish and don’t want to nubpug for my loot” requests.

You could even call it “Advanced Procurement (AP)”, in honor of this thread.

Harshness aside, if it’s so much work to filter out non-practiced people from speed runs, just build up a sufficiently large pool of approved individuals. There’s even a separate section of the forums just for guild recruitment.

If there’s a guild that doesn’t already exist, then do as suggested for LFG and make your own.

Links to get y’all started:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/guilds/recruitment
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/guilds/lfguild
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/guilds/recruitment/Small-PvE-guild-lf-non-casual-zerkers

Having a whitelist is much, much faster and certain than gear pings and AP gates.

AP is the only measurement we get to see how skillful someone is. It’s not the best one, in fact, it’s a pretty crappy one, but it’s the only one. And people with 1k AP tend to fail more often than people with 8k AP.

=o, so I read the three pages thus far and I still don’t understand the topic being discussed. Is it to tell people who wine about being kicked from groups because of low AP, that they shouldn’t wine? Or am I wrong?

I don’t understand why people feel entitled to be inserted into whatever group, no matter how they play, what gear they have, etc. Could somebody please explain this to me?

Aline Castro.9820:

=o, so I read the three pages thus far and I still don’t understand the topic being discussed. Is it to tell people who whine about being kicked from groups because of low AP, that they shouldn’t whine? Or am I wrong?

Yeeeah.. I’m not sure what the purpose of this thread is either, other than to unapologetically apologize for using AP to kick people?
/tilt

The pro-AP arguments so far have all been “best we have” with no desire to look for better ones. :\

I find that very dissonant.

Research a meta build? Check.
Exotic or better ‘zerk gear? Check.
Grind WvW, PvP, dungeons, dailies, etc for AP? Check.
Suffer through bad groups or sigh at kicking because some people don’t read requirements? Check.

Research or make a guild and use time running pugs to invite good players to populate it? OH KITTEN NO THATS TOO MUCH WORK. The best way to get a group without undesired configs is to establish a pre-approved population. The odds of having to kick trolls and stack-unfamiliar players drops to a very favorable number.

AP has no bearing on skill whatsoever. 90% of achievement points you can get are from open world content that can be done in a blob spamming 1. Yes, it means you have been playing the game longer when you have 10k vs 2k, but it in no way makes you better. Most of the serious dungeon runners I know have low achievement points because they didn’t do any personal story for the most part and only run dungeons when they are on, which gives very little points. It means nothing, and using it as a measure only means you exclude brand new players. If that is your goal then great, but don’t pretend it implies you’re getting a better skill level of player, you’re just increasing your chance of getting open world farmers who zerg LS content and like JPs.

So the OP is about how AP isn’t a measure of player skill but it’s the best elite groups have to initially filter the rift-raft.

My point, as the rift-raft, was it’s near impossible to do dungeons because everyone LFP are excluding my kind. Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

It’s the sense of entitlement that dungeons are only for elites and if you aren’t already, go home that I’m rallying against.

Behellagh.1468:

Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

I would argue it’s the exact opposite, there are way more “all welcome” groups than “10k plus ping ascended zerker gear” groups. The reason I prefer the latter is despite taking longer to find people, it makes the runs enjoyable for me rather than frustrating. It’s also a great way for me to add people to my friends list!

And re: everyone saying just go with your guild, there are tons of reasons people PUG. Don’t presume to know why people need to use the LFG tool. I have several different simultaneous reasons why ‘elitist’ PUGging is a lot more convenient for me than running with my guild.

Rauderi.8706:

Aline Castro.9820:

=o, so I read the three pages thus far and I still don’t understand the topic being discussed. Is it to tell people who whine about being kicked from groups because of low AP, that they shouldn’t whine? Or am I wrong?

Yeeeah.. I’m not sure what the purpose of this thread is either, other than to unapologetically apologize for using AP to kick people?
/tilt

The pro-AP arguments so far have all been “best we have” with no desire to look for better ones. :\

I find that very dissonant.

Research a meta build? Check.
Exotic or better ‘zerk gear? Check.
Grind WvW, PvP, dungeons, dailies, etc for AP? Check.
Suffer through bad groups or sigh at kicking because some people don’t read requirements? Check.

Research or make a guild and use time running pugs to invite good players to populate it? OH KITTEN NO THATS TOO MUCH WORK. The best way to get a group without undesired configs is to establish a pre-approved population. The odds of having to kick trolls and stack-unfamiliar players drops to a very favorable number.

I’m glad you have the time to be a scientist and research everything.
I don’t – I’ll use the best I have because it’s the best I have under current circumstances.

It works for me, and it works for others – that’s why the current system is in place.
I’m the first one to agree it’s not perfect and sometimes unfair but like I said – I personally don’t have the time or resources to come up with a better system.

If you do – please help us out – find us a better way to figure out if a person is or isn’t the kind we want in our parties and I’m sure you’ll be hailed as a hero of research.

Behellagh.1468:

So the OP is about how AP isn’t a measure of player skill but it’s the best elite groups have to initially filter the rift-raft.

My point, as the rift-raft, was it’s near impossible to do dungeons because everyone LFP are excluding my kind. Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

It’s the sense of entitlement that dungeons are only for elites and if you aren’t already, go home that I’m rallying against.

I have made anyone welcome parties and that has never happened to me. If people are crying the run isn’t going fast enough they can just leave anyway, it’s not like I care. And if you want experience in dungeons you can always join the mentor guild in the dungeon subforum and get experience in any instance you want in a friendly, controlled environment.

Behellagh.1468:

So the OP is about how AP isn’t a measure of player skill but it’s the best elite groups have to initially filter the rift-raft.

My point, as the rift-raft, was it’s near impossible to do dungeons because everyone LFP are excluding my kind. Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

It’s the sense of entitlement that dungeons are only for elites and if you aren’t already, go home that I’m rallying against.

I do understand what you’re saying.
It’s hard to catch up if you’ve missed out on the start of things – when it was new for everybody and not easy.

A few tips :

Watch youtube videos that explain in detail the content you’re about to attempt.

Create your own group adding emphasis on the fact that you’re inexperienced or want newbie friendly runs.

Run with someone more experienced on voice chat so that they can tell you what and when to do it in real time ( this worked very well for a few friends of mine – drastic improvements all around).

Find people who are willing to teach and care about the community ( there are a lot of these self-proclaimed saviors of the community on the forums – but I rarely see them in game sadly).

Another note is that while I do understand your plight I can’t really agree with the fact that you’re calling us “entitled” in a negative way.

Yes – I am entitled to my own time in the game.
Yes – I am entitled to have fun in the game that I play.

It has nothing to do with you personally but if you aren’t the kind of person I enjoy playing the game with then yes – I won’t party up with you.

And no – nobody has an obligation to teach or carry others in runs.
Some people do it because they like to. Some people don’t.
Some people have done it and are now burned out on it. Some people don’t have the time.
Some people don’t care.

Each of them has a right to play the game how they want and with whomever they want – so if that person isn’t you I don’t think it’s fair to direct your hostility towards them.

Knowledge and experience are things that come with time. Time is a resource and it isn’t free.
I’ve been kicked out of runs – I’ve been new to content. I’ve sometimes asked people to teach me – I’ve sometimes paid some gold for that help.

Ultimately if there’s a will there’s a way.

maha.7902:

Behellagh.1468:

So the OP is about how AP isn’t a measure of player skill but it’s the best elite groups have to initially filter the rift-raft.

My point, as the rift-raft, was it’s near impossible to do dungeons because everyone LFP are excluding my kind. Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

It’s the sense of entitlement that dungeons are only for elites and if you aren’t already, go home that I’m rallying against.

I have made anyone welcome parties and that has never happened to me. If people are crying the run isn’t going fast enough they can just leave anyway, it’s not like I care. And if you want experience in dungeons you can always join the mentor guild in the dungeon subforum and get experience in any instance you want in a friendly, controlled environment.

Sadly maha – it’s much easier for people to complain about various problems they encounter rather than try finding solutions.

It’s very hard for people to accept that ultimately part of the problem might lie with them too.

If you’re slowing down some run and get kicked it’s easy to attribute it all to " those guys are jerks". So people do that – instead of going " well those guys are jerks – but what if they have a point? What if I am doing something wrong? Maybe I should research it".

Harper.4173

Sadly, it’s much easier for people to complain about various problems they encounter rather than try finding solutions.

It’s very hard for people to accept that ultimately part of the problem might lie with them too.

I’m still pretty sure the solution is do the work, research a guild, and guild up. There were even links above to the guild sections.
It’s especially dissonant that, not a few posts earlier, I see the “go Dulfy/YouTube the dungeon” as a method of research and self-improvement, but the same work and investment to improve the situation just isn’t there. By building a guild, there is a network created that, eventually, won’t even see a pug at all.

But, instead, the refrain. “It’s all we have.”

The undertone of everything that’s been said so far is “I’m entitled to dungeon loot, but I’m too lazy to optimize for speed.” Which sounds really familiar.

So, in that next 5-15 minutes of waiting for a zerk/80/15kAP group to come along, instead of flailing at mobs in Frostgorge for T6 mats, alt-tab to research some guilds. Then join one. Or start one and promote it.

What starts off as a buildup of running pugs turns into a fast lane to finding groups and running dungeons even faster. That is a solution, and one completely based around the player seeking a better dungeon experience.

Harper.4173:

If you do – please help us out – find us a better way to figure out if a person is or isn’t the kind we want in our parties and I’m sure you’ll be hailed as a hero of research.

For a better way to determine that the people you group with are compatible, stop PuGging.

Rauderi.8706:

But, instead, the refrain. “It’s all we have.”

Some reasons I PUG:

• I’m online at incredibly random hours due to work schedule, which don’t match my guild schedule.
• I may not be online for any length of time, and I see a PUG that says “LFG super fast 10k ping ascended berseker gear”. That is PERFECT for me.
• Taking a guild group for a dungeon often require a pretty significant amount of time. You need to wait for everyone to finish their jumping puzzle and taking SMC.
• I don’t want to be social, I just want a speed run of a dungeon to relax and not talk.
• Guildies might want to run something stupid and I just want 5 good meta builds.

The list can go on almost indefinitely. kitten off with the "don’t try to find new friends on LFG by being ‘elitist’ line. People are worse than the so called elitists when they do this.

Victory.2879:

I find all this amusing. What happens is this. Players form more and more elitist groups to avoid having to teach new players/less experienced the ropes so that they can complete in the least time possible. This carries on for a while, then the most experienced get bored of this aspect of the game and move on, leaving a smaller and smaller pool of ‘elite’ players, who become more and more vocal about the lack of experienced players.

Guess what? They are complaining about something they themselves helped create. If you are forming pug groups, be willing to take longer and have to train up new people- occassionally you will find a real gem who in a few runs becomes better than you could ever hope to be.

This post deserves more than the single thumbs-up I could give it. This exact same situation happened in GW1 with the Hall of Heroes PvP format too. Because people wanted to win, an unofficial “Rank 3+ players only” mentality set in where HoH players would only accept players who already had experience. This then led to a Catch-22 situation where newer players couldn’t ever get groups to gain the experience they needed. End result? They got discouraged/annoyed and left.

Over time, this then resulted in an extremely insular pool of HoH players, who then started complaining that it was just the same old teams running the same old builds over and over. Then the experienced teams started getting bored and left, exacerbating the problem.

New blood is VITAL to any game (or real life industry or society, for that matter). You need to have new people constantly coming in to replace those who leave due to boredom, because some shiny new game just came out, or pass away.

Yes, sometimes you just want to be in a fast, efficient group that works like smoothly oiled gears. But don’t neglect to teach the newbies too.

Harper.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

So the OP is about how AP isn’t a measure of player skill but it’s the best elite groups have to initially filter the rift-raft.

My point, as the rift-raft, was it’s near impossible to do dungeons because everyone LFP are excluding my kind. Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

It’s the sense of entitlement that dungeons are only for elites and if you aren’t already, go home that I’m rallying against.

I do understand what you’re saying.
It’s hard to catch up if you’ve missed out on the start of things – when it was new for everybody and not easy.

A few tips :

Watch youtube videos that explain in detail the content you’re about to attempt.

Create your own group adding emphasis on the fact that you’re inexperienced or want newbie friendly runs.

Run with someone more experienced on voice chat so that they can tell you what and when to do it in real time ( this worked very well for a few friends of mine – drastic improvements all around).

Find people who are willing to teach and care about the community ( there are a lot of these self-proclaimed saviors of the community on the forums – but I rarely see them in game sadly).

Another note is that while I do understand your plight I can’t really agree with the fact that you’re calling us “entitled” in a negative way.

Yes – I am entitled to my own time in the game.
Yes – I am entitled to have fun in the game that I play.

It has nothing to do with you personally but if you aren’t the kind of person I enjoy playing the game with then yes – I won’t party up with you.

And no – nobody has an obligation to teach or carry others in runs.
Some people do it because they like to. Some people don’t.
Some people have done it and are now burned out on it. Some people don’t have the time.
Some people don’t care.

Each of them has a right to play the game how they want and with whomever they want – so if that person isn’t you I don’t think it’s fair to direct your hostility towards them.

Knowledge and experience are things that come with time. Time is a resource and it isn’t free.
I’ve been kicked out of runs – I’ve been new to content. I’ve sometimes asked people to teach me – I’ve sometimes paid some gold for that help.

Ultimately if there’s a will there’s a way.

You still seem to be under the impression that there is only one “right way to play” from equipment to tactics and anyone who deviates from it is doing it wrong.

So no, I’m not going to review videos showing me how to do that level. Just as I’m not going to slavishly follow a character build guide to “maximize” my performance. It’s your (the way of the elites) insistence that since I’m not playing it your way as the reason I’m being excluded from playing this content. I don’t want to play with elites, I don’t join their pugs. I don’t want to play with people who take a game way too seriously. But I want to play the content. At least in PvE, with the exceptions of dungeons, I don’t need to conform to somebody else’s playstyle, build out, equipment selection, simply to do the game’s content.

But I don’t want to be forced to equip my character a particular way, rearrange my traits, change my weapon load outs, simply to do dungeons. I want to do dungeons with my current character with their current items and traits and weapon choices. I want to watch the cinematic bits at least once. But I can’t find like minded players to join me during the times I play and I need to find other players because dungeons require parties. And I’m sure as heck not going to pay someway for the privileged to play with them. Have MMO players really sunk this low that it’s all about the gold per hour and not about the fun anymore? Guess it depends on hour you define fun.

And BTW, don’t have voice chat, or a headset, or a web cam and I’m not on any form of social media. I like my anonymity. If you can’t be bothered to type a message then you are playing to fast for me. Not an FPS player. Don’t have any gamer gear in terms of keyboards, mice or keypads. I’m old and slow and crappy at jump puzzles. Actually jumping in general. But I need dungeons to get badges to use toward a legendary or dungeon armor sets and that’s my quandary.

Behellagh.1468:

sutff

I believe nothing of what you wrote. I PUG at all hours of the day and have no problems finding causal or hardcore groups. The only dungeon you would ever “need” or even want to pay for is Arah. And that is not content meant for you.

If you want, I’ll hop in to your TA group or whatever it is you need to run and show you we can find a full group in 10 minutes or less (probably more like 180 seconds since you don’t care if randoms join.)

In my opinion it is arguable that a high AP score demonstrates that one does not take this game seriously (or at least not as seriously as some).

When someone else was out practicing soloing a boss for hours on end the AP focused player might very well have been out killing as many critters as possible.

When someone else was practicing with his team for an sPvP tournament the AP focused player might have been making sure that he got every daily possible, and farming plants.

When someone else was spending hours on end with his friends/guildies trying to shave 3 seconds off of their best time for their favorite dungeon speed run the AP focused player might have been working on getting in killing blows with a sub-optimal weapon in a beginner zone.

The majority of APs available are earned doing mindless repetitive tasks lacking in anything even remotely resembling a serious challenge or any challenge at all. That is about as non serious as it gets in my opinion. A playstyle that focuses on things that one can do while watching a movie or reading a book is arguably among the least serious about the game in my opinion.

How much “skill” do you need in dungeons anyway?

Let’s assume that mister 20k AP is the epitome of skill in his chosen profession. Blindly knows his recharges, damage chains etc etc.

So what good will this super player be in a dungeon if it’s his first time? Fairly little.
Because it’s not about skill, it’s mostly about knowing where to stand, where to run, what to skip, what to abuse.

That’s not skill, that’s simply information you need to have. And that goes for the larger bit of the dungeons.

As much sympathy I have for those 5 minutes a speed runner loses out on by taking less experienced people along and explain the dungeon path to them, I certainly don’t think verbal abuse is warranted for that. Especially when those players have usually clocked over 4 – 5 thousand hours.

How horrible for that 0,000016% of your time.

AP is an indicator of how long a player played gw2.

If you want good chances to get competent players for istances you usually go (for fractals) between 7000 and 15000

Over that you get usually achievement hunters, under that you get relatively new players that may not understand many game mechanics.

The fact that the game itsels has no decent tutorials or explain mechanics and people has to look for 3rd party sites or guides aggravates the problem.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

So the OP is about how AP isn’t a measure of player skill but it’s the best elite groups have to initially filter the rift-raft.

My point, as the rift-raft, was it’s near impossible to do dungeons because everyone LFP are excluding my kind. Forming a group on my own had gotten me kicked because players who joined my group because they didn’t think I measured up to their eliteness and therefore hijack my attempt to get experience in a dungeon by taking my group for themselves. Or alternatively, quit mid dungeon because it’s not going fast enough for them, even though the comment says we will be taking it slow, screwing the remaining players over.

It’s the sense of entitlement that dungeons are only for elites and if you aren’t already, go home that I’m rallying against.

I do understand what you’re saying.
It’s hard to catch up if you’ve missed out on the start of things – when it was new for everybody and not easy.

A few tips :

Watch youtube videos that explain in detail the content you’re about to attempt.

Create your own group adding emphasis on the fact that you’re inexperienced or want newbie friendly runs.

Run with someone more experienced on voice chat so that they can tell you what and when to do it in real time ( this worked very well for a few friends of mine – drastic improvements all around).

Find people who are willing to teach and care about the community ( there are a lot of these self-proclaimed saviors of the community on the forums – but I rarely see them in game sadly).

Another note is that while I do understand your plight I can’t really agree with the fact that you’re calling us “entitled” in a negative way.

Yes – I am entitled to my own time in the game.
Yes – I am entitled to have fun in the game that I play.

It has nothing to do with you personally but if you aren’t the kind of person I enjoy playing the game with then yes – I won’t party up with you.

And no – nobody has an obligation to teach or carry others in runs.
Some people do it because they like to. Some people don’t.
Some people have done it and are now burned out on it. Some people don’t have the time.
Some people don’t care.

Each of them has a right to play the game how they want and with whomever they want – so if that person isn’t you I don’t think it’s fair to direct your hostility towards them.

Knowledge and experience are things that come with time. Time is a resource and it isn’t free.
I’ve been kicked out of runs – I’ve been new to content. I’ve sometimes asked people to teach me – I’ve sometimes paid some gold for that help.

Ultimately if there’s a will there’s a way.

You still seem to be under the impression that there is only one “right way to play” from equipment to tactics and anyone who deviates from it is doing it wrong.

So no, I’m not going to review videos showing me how to do that level. Just as I’m not going to slavishly follow a character build guide to “maximize” my performance. It’s your (the way of the elites) insistence that since I’m not playing it your way as the reason I’m being excluded from playing this content. I don’t want to play with elites, I don’t join their pugs. I don’t want to play with people who take a game way too seriously. But I want to play the content. At least in PvE, with the exceptions of dungeons, I don’t need to conform to somebody else’s playstyle, build out, equipment selection, simply to do the game’s content.

But I don’t want to be forced to equip my character a particular way, rearrange my traits, change my weapon load outs, simply to do dungeons. I want to do dungeons with my current character with their current items and traits and weapon choices. I want to watch the cinematic bits at least once. But I can’t find like minded players to join me during the times I play and I need to find other players because dungeons require parties. And I’m sure as heck not going to pay someway for the privileged to play with them. Have MMO players really sunk this low that it’s all about the gold per hour and not about the fun anymore? Guess it depends on hour you define fun.

And BTW, don’t have voice chat, or a headset, or a web cam and I’m not on any form of social media. I like my anonymity. If you can’t be bothered to type a message then you are playing to fast for me. Not an FPS player. Don’t have any gamer gear in terms of keyboards, mice or keypads. I’m old and slow and crappy at jump puzzles. Actually jumping in general. But I need dungeons to get badges to use toward a legendary or dungeon armor sets and that’s my quandary.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Mentors-Noob/first – the option is here for you – we don’t even need you to be in meta gear and builds.

Behellagh.1468:

You still seem to be under the impression that there is only one “right way to play” from equipment to tactics and anyone who deviates from it is doing it wrong.

So no, I’m not going to review videos showing me how to do that level. Just as I’m not going to slavishly follow a character build guide to “maximize” my performance. It’s your (the way of the elites) insistence that since I’m not playing it your way as the reason I’m being excluded from playing this content. I don’t want to play with elites, I don’t join their pugs. I don’t want to play with people who take a game way too seriously. But I want to play the content. At least in PvE, with the exceptions of dungeons, I don’t need to conform to somebody else’s playstyle, build out, equipment selection, simply to do the game’s content.

But I don’t want to be forced to equip my character a particular way, rearrange my traits, change my weapon load outs, simply to do dungeons. I want to do dungeons with my current character with their current items and traits and weapon choices. I want to watch the cinematic bits at least once. But I can’t find like minded players to join me during the times I play and I need to find other players because dungeons require parties. And I’m sure as heck not going to pay someway for the privileged to play with them. Have MMO players really sunk this low that it’s all about the gold per hour and not about the fun anymore? Guess it depends on hour you define fun.

And BTW, don’t have voice chat, or a headset, or a web cam and I’m not on any form of social media. I like my anonymity. If you can’t be bothered to type a message then you are playing to fast for me. Not an FPS player. Don’t have any gamer gear in terms of keyboards, mice or keypads. I’m old and slow and crappy at jump puzzles. Actually jumping in general. But I need dungeons to get badges to use toward a legendary or dungeon armor sets and that’s my quandary.

There’s not just one "right way to play " but there is only one fast way to play. The fastest way.

The solutions i gave you were there because you seemed to have trouble dealing with “elitists”.
And you’ll understand why people who take the game seriously don’t really want to play with you – you said it yourself – you don’t take it that seriously.

Some people have mentioned the same problems – can’t find “elitist” players on the LFG tool – and other people have suggested making a guild or joining one – a guild that suits your play style.

So do that – it might work like people said.

Also – defining fun – gold per hour is fun for me. The more the better.

The way I see it you want people to make an effort and reach out to you and help but you’re not willing to meet them half way.

No headset.
No voice chat.
No build changes.
No gear changes.
No guides or videos taken into account.

So basically you want things to change – and the elitists to find a way to accomodate you into their parties but you yourself aren’t willing to change at all.
So why would people change and take you along?

Ashen.2907:

In my opinion it is arguable that a high AP score demonstrates that one does not take this game seriously (or at least not as seriously as some).

When someone else was out practicing soloing a boss for hours on end the AP focused player might very well have been out killing as many critters as possible.

When someone else was practicing with his team for an sPvP tournament the AP focused player might have been making sure that he got every daily possible, and farming plants.

When someone else was spending hours on end with his friends/guildies trying to shave 3 seconds off of their best time for their favorite dungeon speed run the AP focused player might have been working on getting in killing blows with a sub-optimal weapon in a beginner zone.

The majority of APs available are earned doing mindless repetitive tasks lacking in anything even remotely resembling a serious challenge or any challenge at all. That is about as non serious as it gets in my opinion. A playstyle that focuses on things that one can do while watching a movie or reading a book is arguably among the least serious about the game in my opinion.

Yes but the fact that you’re getting them – which is actually in my opinion very boring to do – means you’re getting them for a reason.

Considering how they’ve been used as a metric and how runs are becoming AP-gated you can work with the assumption that the player getting them knows this and gets them because he cares about being included in content.

Evans.6347:

How much “skill” do you need in dungeons anyway?

Let’s assume that mister 20k AP is the epitome of skill in his chosen profession. Blindly knows his recharges, damage chains etc etc.

So what good will this super player be in a dungeon if it’s his first time? Fairly little.
Because it’s not about skill, it’s mostly about knowing where to stand, where to run, what to skip, what to abuse.

That’s not skill, that’s simply information you need to have. And that goes for the larger bit of the dungeons.

As much sympathy I have for those 5 minutes a speed runner loses out on by taking less experienced people along and explain the dungeon path to them, I certainly don’t think verbal abuse is warranted for that. Especially when those players have usually clocked over 4 – 5 thousand hours.

How horrible for that 0,000016% of your time.

Ayup, +1, and all that such.
But then, I play a patient game, and I’m not all that loot-focused. Shrug, half-dozen of one or the other. That’s probably why I agree with the above.

Honestly nothing against the speedruns themselves. People like loot. It just needs some PR help, and a lot of that comes from getting players on either side to:
A – Use full disclosure in their LFG.
B – Only join groups they meet requirements for. (And don’t be bitter, folks. Make your own groups. You’ll be surprised how quickly they fill.)

It’s really that simple. Don’t be a troll. Please. We’re all just trying to enjoy the game. Don’t join a quick-run group just to spite them so they’re forced to kick you. Don’t join a casual group and complain or start kicking so your friend can sneak in.

(That’s all generalized-you, not fingerpointing-you, by the way. I can only hope no one in this thread could be such a kitten.)

Some people with +8k AP crying about ‘Uncategorized Fractal’ it’s too difficult!1111

Harper.4173:

-snip-

All AP is, is GW2s version of gearscore or itemlevel, sugarcoat it and twist and bend it all you want, but that is what it is.

There is however 1 significant differnce: Whereas you could stack up gearscore/ilvl and expect your superawesome gear to carry you through the content, your AP wont be capable of hiding just how poorly you play.

I have nearly 9 k AP (I missed a lot of achievements of the past year) and I’m not more then maybe a C+ at being good at the game. I still have a lot to learn. The whole AP business is stupid and bad gamesmanship.

vpchelko.4261:

Some people with +8k AP crying about ‘Uncategorized Fractal’ it’s too difficult!1111

I could see him or her complaining about the colossus fractal or Mai Trin (I suck period at her) that thing is just nearly impossible to free without a good team.

Harper.4173:

There’s not just one "right way to play " but there is only one fast way to play. The fastest way.

The solutions i gave you were there because you seemed to have trouble dealing with “elitists”.
And you’ll understand why people who take the game seriously don’t really want to play with you – you said it yourself – you don’t take it that seriously.

Some people have mentioned the same problems – can’t find “elitist” players on the LFG tool – and other people have suggested making a guild or joining one – a guild that suits your play style.

So do that – it might work like people said.

Also – defining fun – gold per hour is fun for me. The more the better.

The way I see it you want people to make an effort and reach out to you and help but you’re not willing to meet them half way.

No headset.
No voice chat.
No build changes.
No gear changes.
No guides or videos taken into account.

So basically you want things to change – and the elitists to find a way to accomodate you into their parties but you yourself aren’t willing to change at all.
So why would people change and take you along?

- I want/need to do dungeons to get badges needed for stuff.

- Dungeons require a party.

- I can only get a party if I change my character.

That is what I find wrong. I’m not looking to do speed runs. I’m looking to play content at the speed I can play at with like minded individuals. Is that too much to ask?

According to you it is. I need to buy additional hardware so I can voice chat. I need to change my character to a style that I’m not use to playing. That I need to acquire items for my character than I do not currently have to max particular stats out. I need to watch spoilers so I know what’s coming. All to do what I consider is basic content tied to my personal story.

Do you read the Cliff’s Notes before reading a novel so you know what’s coming? Do you read the wiki plot synopsis of a movie before going to see it? Isn’t there any joy to discovering something on your own first anymore? Or is everything reduced to a guide of do this then that, collect reward?

Can’t I simply take four other random players with sub optimal builds into a dungeon, sight unseen, and enjoy it? But I can’t find four other like minded people (other than guildmates) because everyone hanging around the entrance are cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds who won’t give you the time of day because dungeons are only for cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds.

You can’t say it open to all but insist I need to change my character to be eligible to participate.

AP is not a measure of skill, but a measure of how much time someone has on their hands. Something that you probably do not want to brag about.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

There’s not just one "right way to play " but there is only one fast way to play. The fastest way.

The solutions i gave you were there because you seemed to have trouble dealing with “elitists”.
And you’ll understand why people who take the game seriously don’t really want to play with you – you said it yourself – you don’t take it that seriously.

Some people have mentioned the same problems – can’t find “elitist” players on the LFG tool – and other people have suggested making a guild or joining one – a guild that suits your play style.

So do that – it might work like people said.

Also – defining fun – gold per hour is fun for me. The more the better.

The way I see it you want people to make an effort and reach out to you and help but you’re not willing to meet them half way.

No headset.
No voice chat.
No build changes.
No gear changes.
No guides or videos taken into account.

So basically you want things to change – and the elitists to find a way to accomodate you into their parties but you yourself aren’t willing to change at all.
So why would people change and take you along?

- I want/need to do dungeons to get badges needed for stuff.

- Dungeons require a party.

- I can only get a party if I change my character.

That is what I find wrong. I’m not looking to do speed runs. I’m looking to play content at the speed I can play at with like minded individuals. Is that too much to ask?

According to you it is. I need to buy additional hardware so I can voice chat. I need to change my character to a style that I’m not use to playing. That I need to acquire items for my character than I do not currently have to max particular stats out. I need to watch spoilers so I know what’s coming. All to do what I consider is basic content tied to my personal story.

Do you read the Cliff’s Notes before reading a novel so you know what’s coming? Do you read the wiki plot synopsis of a movie before going to see it? Isn’t there any joy to discovering something on your own first anymore? Or is everything reduced to a guide of do this then that, collect reward?

Can’t I simply take four other random players with sub optimal builds into a dungeon, sight unseen, and enjoy it? But I can’t find four other like minded people (other than guildmates) because everyone hanging around the entrance are cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds who won’t give you the time of day because dungeons are only for cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds.

You can’t say it open to all but insist I need to change my character to be eligible to participate.

Are you legitimately missing my posts or just choosing to ignore them? I’ve offered you a perfect solution to your problem like two or three times now.

I’ve run almost every path in every single dungeon enough times I can do them without paying attention, no matter which 80 I’m on.

I’m so close to my first Legendary that I practically need nothing but the precursor.

I’ve seen every inch of Tyria we can currently reach.

All of my 80s are decked out in Exotics, and I have one Ascended armor piece from a very lucky PvP chest.

I’m not a die-hard, every-cheat-and-exploit, “only one build is valid,” player, but I run dungeons routinely, and I am very, very good at that side of the game.

I only have 5380 AP.

Not sure AP’s much of an indicator of anything.

I think the right way to say is more “AP shows how important the game is to the player OR to feel like an elitist”
I have only 9k AP yet, I have 5k played hours (when most of 12-16k AP don’t even have half of my hours). Also belong in the PvP leaderboards for quite amount of time, 3 Legendaries.

I did Arah speedruns when I had 600AP already :p

maha.7902:

Are you legitimately missing my posts or just choosing to ignore them? I’ve offered you a perfect solution to your problem like two or three times now.

Because I’m not arguing with you maha, I’m arguing with Harper.

His point is that if you want to do dungeons then conform to the elite mentality or do without. I’ve done dungeon PUGs before successfully as well as dungeons with my guildmates. But if my guildmates aren’t online it’s difficult to organize a PUG that isn’t polluted with elitist snobs who deem me as not worthy to breath the same air as them. It takes longer to form one and not have players bail in the middle because they didn’t like the pace, even though they were told upfront that is was casual and we are taking it slow. Might as well as put a bouncer with a rope in front of the dungeons due to all the snobbery found there.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

There’s not just one "right way to play " but there is only one fast way to play. The fastest way.

The solutions i gave you were there because you seemed to have trouble dealing with “elitists”.
And you’ll understand why people who take the game seriously don’t really want to play with you – you said it yourself – you don’t take it that seriously.

Some people have mentioned the same problems – can’t find “elitist” players on the LFG tool – and other people have suggested making a guild or joining one – a guild that suits your play style.

So do that – it might work like people said.

Also – defining fun – gold per hour is fun for me. The more the better.

The way I see it you want people to make an effort and reach out to you and help but you’re not willing to meet them half way.

No headset.
No voice chat.
No build changes.
No gear changes.
No guides or videos taken into account.

So basically you want things to change – and the elitists to find a way to accomodate you into their parties but you yourself aren’t willing to change at all.
So why would people change and take you along?

- I want/need to do dungeons to get badges needed for stuff.

- Dungeons require a party.

- I can only get a party if I change my character.

That is what I find wrong. I’m not looking to do speed runs. I’m looking to play content at the speed I can play at with like minded individuals. Is that too much to ask?

According to you it is. I need to buy additional hardware so I can voice chat. I need to change my character to a style that I’m not use to playing. That I need to acquire items for my character than I do not currently have to max particular stats out. I need to watch spoilers so I know what’s coming. All to do what I consider is basic content tied to my personal story.

Do you read the Cliff’s Notes before reading a novel so you know what’s coming? Do you read the wiki plot synopsis of a movie before going to see it? Isn’t there any joy to discovering something on your own first anymore? Or is everything reduced to a guide of do this then that, collect reward?

Can’t I simply take four other random players with sub optimal builds into a dungeon, sight unseen, and enjoy it? But I can’t find four other like minded people (other than guildmates) because everyone hanging around the entrance are cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds who won’t give you the time of day because dungeons are only for cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds.

You can’t say it open to all but insist I need to change my character to be eligible to participate.

A lot of dungeons can be soloed if you know what you’re doing.
There’s video guides for it but I doubt you’d follow them. Just saying the option is out there.

And regarding your speed and choice of character – I don’t know if it’s too much to ask.

Have you tried making your own groups? Have you specified “no speed run – slow run” ?
How slow is your speed? Does it take you 1 hour / dungeon ? Does it take more? does it take less.

It depends on how you want things done – but yes – there is a point where it becomes “too much to ask” – and that point is reached when your fun takes away other people’s fun. When that happens people will stop wanting to play with you.

The problem here I believe is your approach to content – you’ve come to an MMO expecting more of a single player RPG experience.

Yes – the content was once fresh and new and people enjoyed taking their time experiencing and discovering it but that time was almost 2 years ago – specifically in the first 2-3 months after release.

After that – yes – the content is pretty much reduced to a guide of do this, then that and get your reward.
You missed out on the collective experience of discovery – you’ll probably have a tough time finding people who are discovering the game now for the first time. But you should try it anyway – the forums and big cities might be a place to start.

You’re looking at it wrong if you expect people to slow their pace to one of “exploration and discovery” when they’ve “explored and discovered” that content hundreds of times.

I understand your frustration and I’m sorry to be the one to bring this news but the days of doing the content the way you describe are gone. You’ve missed them by about a year and a half.

I know it’s difficult – this was the case for me getting into the original Guild Wars – I came to that game after EoTN was long out.
I discovered and explored the game mostly by myself – because other players requested and required this or that build and/or experience.
It was after that that I got into the meta – but you could do that in GW1.

Your best bet is trying to find other people that are new.
Or friends, or guildmates.

Behellagh.1468:

maha.7902:

Are you legitimately missing my posts or just choosing to ignore them? I’ve offered you a perfect solution to your problem like two or three times now.

Because I’m not arguing with you maha, I’m arguing with Harper.

His point is that if you want to do dungeons then conform to the elite mentality or do without. I’ve done dungeon PUGs before successfully as well as dungeons with my guildmates. But if my guildmates aren’t online it’s difficult to organize a PUG that isn’t polluted with elitist snobs who deem me as not worthy to breath the same air as them. It takes longer to form one and not have players bail in the middle because they didn’t like the pace, even though they were told upfront that is was casual and we are taking it slow. Might as well as put a bouncer with a rope in front of the dungeons due to all the snobbery found there.

I would simply like to point out that every person has the right to play and enjoy the game the way they feel is right.

If they don’t have the time or patience to take things slow or play how you would want they’re not doing something wrong.
You’re not entitled to other people’s time or effort.

If people want to play a certain way – and you don’t – that’s fine – but don’t complain when they don’t want you in their run or leave.

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

You can either conform to the majority’s way of doing things and have an abundance of people to choose form to play with or remain rooted in your own ways of doing things and only be able to do things with a limited number of players that will accept your particular way.

You can’t force people to want to play with you if you’re an element that disrupts their fun in a game that they play primarily for fun.

You might consider fun playing your class the way you want to.
Other people might consider fun having certain classes and getting rewards fast.

Behellagh.1468:

maha.7902:

Are you legitimately missing my posts or just choosing to ignore them? I’ve offered you a perfect solution to your problem like two or three times now.

Because I’m not arguing with you maha, I’m arguing with Harper.

His point is that if you want to do dungeons then conform to the elite mentality or do without. I’ve done dungeon PUGs before successfully as well as dungeons with my guildmates. But if my guildmates aren’t online it’s difficult to organize a PUG that isn’t polluted with elitist snobs who deem me as not worthy to breath the same air as them. It takes longer to form one and not have players bail in the middle because they didn’t like the pace, even though they were told upfront that is was casual and we are taking it slow. Might as well as put a bouncer with a rope in front of the dungeons due to all the snobbery found there.

And I’m telling you now that you do not need to conform to any sort of mentality to do dungeons. I literally never join berserker groups for dungeons (or make them), and guess what happens? We clear the dungeon, nobody asks about gear, nobody tries to impose standards on the group. Sure, it’s anecdotal, I know that – but when people say that there are snobs in their no-requirement group getting mad at people for not running berserker, I honestly just find it really hard to believe when I’m a pretty hardcore no-requirement pugger and that’s never happened in groups I’ve had.

Like I said – if it’s actually a problem, ask for an invite to the dungeon mentor guild, get in to contact with a mentor and ask them if they can teach you whatever path you want to learn. If you wanted to do Arah and I actually had computer access, I’d take you through it and sit through every single cutscene if you wanted to watch all of them – and I don’t expect meta builds or anything of the sort. Sure, it’s nice, but a prerequisite to being an Arah mentor is basically being able to solo/duo all of the paths so I’m perfectly capable of handling myself if things go wrong.

Well, I look on AP’s as quests. I like quests and since there are not many in this game AP’s are what you got.

AP’s are a mediocre source of judging someone’s ability. Entropy farming. WOOT! Lets hear it for low buy orders and salvaging all day for 2 AP’s at a time. Awesome, you know how to double click. Spam 1 also. YAY Win! Granted there are a lot of people with a lot of AP’s who outright have a clue. There are also people with 500 AP’s who share the same understanding. All I am saying is don’t put too much emphasis in the AP thing.

Behellagh.1468:

Harper.4173:

There’s not just one "right way to play " but there is only one fast way to play. The fastest way.

The solutions i gave you were there because you seemed to have trouble dealing with “elitists”.
And you’ll understand why people who take the game seriously don’t really want to play with you – you said it yourself – you don’t take it that seriously.

Some people have mentioned the same problems – can’t find “elitist” players on the LFG tool – and other people have suggested making a guild or joining one – a guild that suits your play style.

So do that – it might work like people said.

Also – defining fun – gold per hour is fun for me. The more the better.

The way I see it you want people to make an effort and reach out to you and help but you’re not willing to meet them half way.

No headset.
No voice chat.
No build changes.
No gear changes.
No guides or videos taken into account.

So basically you want things to change – and the elitists to find a way to accomodate you into their parties but you yourself aren’t willing to change at all.
So why would people change and take you along?

- I want/need to do dungeons to get badges needed for stuff.

- Dungeons require a party.

- I can only get a party if I change my character.

That is what I find wrong. I’m not looking to do speed runs. I’m looking to play content at the speed I can play at with like minded individuals. Is that too much to ask?

According to you it is. I need to buy additional hardware so I can voice chat. I need to change my character to a style that I’m not use to playing. That I need to acquire items for my character than I do not currently have to max particular stats out. I need to watch spoilers so I know what’s coming. All to do what I consider is basic content tied to my personal story.

Do you read the Cliff’s Notes before reading a novel so you know what’s coming? Do you read the wiki plot synopsis of a movie before going to see it? Isn’t there any joy to discovering something on your own first anymore? Or is everything reduced to a guide of do this then that, collect reward?

Can’t I simply take four other random players with sub optimal builds into a dungeon, sight unseen, and enjoy it? But I can’t find four other like minded people (other than guildmates) because everyone hanging around the entrance are cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds who won’t give you the time of day because dungeons are only for cookie-cutter warrior zerg builds.

You can’t say it open to all but insist I need to change my character to be eligible to participate.

Wow, this is hillarious. So everyone else should change to accomodate you? And why is that? Is their right to play as they choose and with whom they want any less than yours? It sure seems that way to you. All you do is whine and whine because apparently not many choose to play like you want. Are you sure you tried finding other like-minded people? The LFG tool is there for a reason, you know, the days of making parties in front of dungeons are long past.

I am one of those weird people that can appreciate both aspects. The chaos, not knowing what’s around the next corner vs the planned execution. There is something soothing in the whole group moving as one, mowing the mobs and bosses down, but the sense of wonder is missing, replaced by might stacking and other mechanics. However in this context that is always the case in maturing games, it can only be brought back shortly with new content, new dungeons if you so will.

I still remember the days when an item drop was always exciting (in general, not GW2 related). I had no clue about those numbers, but they were higher – that had to be good!

It is self induced pressure, for both parties. Finding the right people to play with is key and not always easy and both sides might often end up thinking that there is more of those “other” people around.

Everyone just needs to create their own LFG and be done with it. Either post you want experienced, zerker builds only, or post that it is a casual run and all are welcome.

You can pick and choose from there.

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

Wow, this is hillarious. So everyone else should change to accomodate you? And why is that? Is their right to play as they choose and with whom they want any less than yours? It sure seems that way to you. All you do is whine and whine because apparently not many choose to play like you want. Are you sure you tried finding other like-minded people? The LFG tool is there for a reason, you know, the days of making parties in front of dungeons are long past.

I’m not asking for people to accommodate me. I’m asking why is there a need to be exclusionary vs inclusive. Everywhere else in the PvE world there isn’t a need to craft the same type of min/max character to play the game’s content. There isn’t a need to prep for an encounter by memorizing somebody else’s battle plan. There is zero need to party anywhere in the PvE world except for Dungeons. But instead of being inclusive, everyone is welcome to play as it is in the rest of the world it has turned into an exclusive experience where the pressure to conform to a particular build and play style eliminates any sense of individuality and self expression. It’s the attitude of “if you aren’t taking this seriously then you shouldn’t be playing” that I’m objecting to.

This is a game. It’s meant to have fun, blow off steam, a way to relax after a hard day. What ever happen to doing a dungeon for fun and if you wipe, no biggie, we’ll do better next time. Now it’s a profanity laced tirade that you didn’t execute the combo perfectly or you were a little to far forward and because of that the dungeon took two minutes longer to do. Chill, mellow, we’re all just people killing time here. It’s not like we are being paid to be elite super players. This is suppose to be a happy, pretendy, fun time game.

What’s wrong in wanting to figure out how to do a dungeon from scratch? What’s wrong with watching the in-game cinematics at least once. What’s wrong with exploring the whole place? What’s wrong with kiting/ambush through the whole dungeon?

My complaint is the when I’ve used LFM/G feature for dungeons, I’ve encountered considerably more players who have a very rigid view on how to play and who can play than those that are open to a random PUG of all comers that includes a real risk of a failure, but we are going to have a fun time doing it anyway.

The attitude of " if you aren’t taking this seriously then you shouldn’t be playing" is there because – believe it or not – some people actually take the game seriously.

They care about it enough to care about being efficient and want to play with other people that play the same way they do.

I don’t think you read my above posts – I would advise you do to it – it will explain why things are the way they are.
The “playhowyouwant” and “explorer” people have been there done that and moved on – to other areas or other games.

Who’s left in the dungeons now are the people who do them for rewards. That’s why they care about builds – because once you’ve done dungeons hundreds of times you care about how much time you end up spending inside – since you’re probably tired and bored of that content but need to do it for the rewards.

This is a game. It’s meant to have fun, blow off steam, a way to relax after a hard day. What ever happen to doing a dungeon for fun and if you wipe, no biggie, we’ll do better next time.

Yes – it is a game – but your notion of fun has nothing to do with mine.
My fun is in the rewards right now. In the fast acquisition of rewards to be precise.

Sure – the first couple of times a “wipe and no big deal” situation is alright – but 2 years into the game I’m not so keen on spending extra time doing something I should have been done with 10 minutes ago.

We’re burned out on the content – but the economics of GW2 mean we have to keep doing it – for the rewards.

This is suppose to be a happy, pretendy, fun time game.

I pretend to be a warrior that’s very concerned about his gold per hour when doing dungeons. The more gold per hour the happier he is.

That aside – I think you can see what I’m saying – different people have fun in different ways and right now the amount of people that have fun doing content fast and clean for rewards I think exceeds the amount of people who have fun doing the content your way.

What’s wrong in wanting to figure out how to do a dungeon from scratch? What’s wrong with watching the in-game cinematics at least once. What’s wrong with exploring the whole place? What’s wrong with kiting/ambush through the whole dungeon?

Nothing. Now here’s the reverse?

What’s wrong with not wanting all of those things you mentioned above?
What’s wrong with not wanting to clear AC in 30 minutes / path on your 400th run?
What’s wrong with wanting to spend your time in game efficiently?

My complaint is the when I’ve used LFM/G feature for dungeons, I’ve encountered considerably more players who have a very rigid view on how to play and who can play than those that are open to a random PUG of all comers that includes a real risk of a failure, but we are going to have a fun time doing it anyway.

Because there’s fewer people that want the real risk of failure.
Because there’s fewer people that are open to a random PUG of all comers.

Because the more time content has been out the lower the tolerance rating for non-meta builds for that content will be.

Also – I’d like you to agree with me that not all people have fun in the same way – and you might have to consider that maybe your way of having fun is less common than mine.