Guild Wars 2

nachtnebel.9168:

RebelYell.7132:

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

Wow, there is a Dark Souls MMORPG?! Where can I get it?

This game purports to be an action RPG where movement and quick thinking is rewarded. That puts other games that do the same as its contemporaries.

Not to mention that in terms of online features, DS is nearly as robust as GW1.

RebelYell.7132:

This game purports to be an action RPG where movement and quick thinking is rewarded. That puts other games that do the same as its contemporaries.

But one of the main features of this game is still being an MMO, which DS is clearly not. DS is designed as a single player game with a nice multiplayer option, it’s not competetive at all and you also don’t depend on other players to clear all the content.

Not to mention that in terms of online features, DS is nearly as robust as GW1.

True, but GW1 had no gear progression at all and has a higher player base than DS which doesn’t make it the better but surely the more successful game.

RebelYell.7132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

RebelYell.7132:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

where does idea that having better gear means you are better, come from? go learn to play. this is the progression gw2 offers.

Dark Souls is primarily about learning encounters, and learning to play them well, yet it still manages to have desirable gear that compliments your playstyle.

what is dark soul? are we talking about the same thing here?

…are we really in this much of a vacuum here? Sigh.

hmm?

anyway, you are missing the point. i don’t want gear progression and that’s why i bought the game. it doesn’t matter if it has all of the above.

SolidTx.3249:

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

You say you have an honest question and then turn around and immediately flame anyone who doesn’t agree with you with loaded labels. Communistic, freely given to all … please.

If you want to have an honest discussion, then let’s keep labels out of it. If you don’t … well, talking to a troll is pointless (you see what I did? I applied a label that invalidated your comments without actually saying anything about your points.)

I don’t think anyone has a problem with the gear up to exotics. The gear is easy to obtain, doesn’t rely on time gating or RNG. You can try out new builds without investing a lot of time. And there is little penalty for making a mistake or (gasp) changing your mind.

Some people have a lot of issues with Ascended gear (all of this is opinion).

1. It’s tedious to obtain. (not hard, tedious)
2. You get locked into one build for one toon.
3. It gives an advantage in WvWvW.
4. The stats on ascended gear favor crit builds over other builds.
5. It’s pointless, as many people have pointed out all PvE content can be done without it (except high level fractals, and then only for agony.)

The only reason that I can see for gear progression is so that you can noobstomp players in WvW without actually having the skill to do it without the gear advantage.

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

Saying “We NEED gear progression” is literally committing forum suicide.

Judge Banks.9018:

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

Saying “We NEED gear progression” is literally committing forum suicide.

I love it when someone makes a thread about gear progression or class role trinities, it means I get to do battle with the cargo cult of game design without racking up infractions.

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

You could try playing the game because you enjoy playing it.

If you don’t enjoy it, well…

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Except play the whole of the game?
just a suggestion

SolidTx.3249:

and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

I agree with the guys here, Solid. I also come from WoW and it has been week since I cancelled my account there. GW2 is just a different game. It doesn’t have that grind (or goal) to improve your gear over and over. I understand the mentality of ex-WoW players who feel so lost after years of gear grinding.

I think GW2 is much more casual in this sense and ANet puts the goal into enjoying the content more than gear. Have you ever played games like Quake 3, Team Fortress (although that is a little different today), Counter-Strike, StarCraft, and others? On these games, the players are always equal to one another. It doesn’t matter how long you play, there is no gear, no improvements (besides your personal skills). It is all about having fun with the game mechanics. This is GW2 in MMO form. A game where all of us are ultimately equals in gear, and we just enjoy playing the content for the fun of it.

I like this. This is a break from the “job” model of WoW where you feel compelled to log in everyday or you will be behind your friends, gear wise. Honestly speaking, I was tired of all my efforts being thrown down the drain with every new patch (and armor tier) that Blizzard introduced. And I find it so comforting that I can have a game like GW2 where my efforts are more stable, where I can just enjoy the content when I want and still do other activities in real life, without being behind.

The beauty of GW 1 & 2 besides the f2p is you can basically be as good as anyone without putting crazy amounts of time in it.

atm i play alot, but that can change and i could not logg in for a month or 2-3 or play perhaps only 10 hours a week. I can do that knowing that when i return i will not be at a disadvantage because i missed out on the new and better gear and will first have to spend all my time grinding & upgrading it to be on an equal level again, with the risk of by the time i finished there’s new gear so i have to start all over. Off course my skills will be rusty and i probably have to get back on track on new “builds” but that’s easy compared to having to spend tons of hours doing things i dont like. Grinding dungeons or whatever.

I do understand the lack of content for hardcore players. But also dont forget that eventually you will run into this in almost any game. (Perhaps the only game that does’nt have this problem is South Parks Heroin Hero ;-) ) and the fact that GW is barely 8 months old. There will be new content, just look at the current map and there will be new expansions. Even if they released it all at once, say all the content the size of GW 1 as it is now after 8 years, i guarentee you within a month or 2 someone is complaining about lack of endgame content.

Having said that, did you guys play GW1, you did’nt mention it? because that might be a really good challenge for you with all the expansions readily available and all the things to do.

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

I disagree. I love progression in all its various forms, gear progression included. I think adding ascended gear was a great idea and well executed. Same with legendaries.

I also love visual progression, WvW’s new progression system, achievement progression, etc. I don’t know why people talk junk about gear progression and heartily support all the other kinds. Some people REALLY LIKE gear progression. Actually…a LOT of people do. Look at “the other game” for an example of that. Massive subscriber base (dwarfs GW2s active players)…all centered around gear progression.

The main difference with GW2 is that you don’t HAVE to get ascended gear to do just as well in pretty much everything in the game. Ascended gear is really only “required” for fractals.

I think people have come to equate gear progression as something bad. But the thing is, progress is still progress, be it vertical or horizontal. What irks people (i think) is how the gear treadmill replaces the main function of the game, how it’s all about getting the next tier armor, and how it is gating people from content. I used to play DCUO, and after getting the tier 1 controller armors, I was annoyed at the amount of grinding i had to do daily to get tier 2, nevermind tier 3 (maybe even 4 now). I really liked the story aspect of DCUO, but I couldn’t do them because those kinds of dungeons and raids are only for people with a specific gear score. In gw2, it’s so easy to get end-game gear, and even if you don’t have it yet, you can do almost all pve content with rares.

I disagree, you don’t need “progression” to make an experience fun and engaging. Chess, checkers, Gin Rummy, Bridge, Euchre, Poker, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, and a host of other activities do not have “progression” as we’ve been discussing it.

But people play those all the time.

TooBz.3065:

I disagree, you don’t need “progression” to make an experience fun and engaging. Chess, checkers, Gin Rummy, Bridge, Euchre, Poker, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, and a host of other activities do not have “progression” as we’ve been discussing it.

But people play those all the time.

It’s not really a “need”, but more of a “want”. People want progress at some form or another. GW2 is taking that form as cosmetic upgrades. And you really can’t compare those games with gw2. It’s like comparing dota/lol/hon/sc2/cs with wow/gw2/swtor. Apples and oranges. Also, all of those games have progression of some sort, when it comes to competitions. You start at the season, go to playoffs, quarterfinals, semi, then finals. Those are progression. You may also start those activities as, say, team C of the LA lakers (idk if they have a team C) and play in smaller tourneys. Then work your way up to Team A and play in the NBA. You being better at your activity, that’s also a form of progression.

So is it necessary to make a fun experience? Maybe not. But do people want it? Yep. What matters now (and what separates gw2 with other mmos) is the form of that progression and rate of progress.

Hickeroar.9734:

Some people REALLY LIKE gear progression. Actually…a LOT of people do. Look at “the other game” for an example of that. Massive subscriber base (dwarfs GW2s active players)…all centered around gear progression.

penatbater.4710:

It’s not really a “need”, but more of a “want”. People want progress at some form or another.
…
So is it necessary to make a fun experience? Maybe not. But do people want it? Yep. What matters now (and what separates gw2 with other mmos) is the form of that progression and rate of progress.

Both of you are probably right, but still your statement is probably not true for the majority of GW2 players. Most people playing “that other MMO” might want vertical progression but most people playing GW2 really hate it.
Having vertical progression in your game is fine if your player base is okay with it, if they don’t like it, which GW2 players clearly don’t – just take a look at the ascended gear kitten storm in November – forcing it down their throats is a bad idea.

Yeah I agree the game needs gear progression, without gear progression there’s basically no reason to run dungeons since you can get crafted gear that’s equally as good as the dungeon gear. Without gear progression this is why half the community hasn’t even ran Arah, instead they just run CoF over and over again.

TooBz.3065:

I disagree, you don’t need “progression” to make an experience fun and engaging. Chess, checkers, Gin Rummy, Bridge, Euchre, Poker, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, and a host of other activities do not have “progression” as we’ve been discussing it.

But people play those all the time.

Who plays those all the time? The sports sure, but I think the last time I saw someone play checkers or rummy was 1984. Let’s be realistic here :P

nachtnebel.9168:

Hickeroar.9734:

Some people REALLY LIKE gear progression. Actually…a LOT of people do. Look at “the other game” for an example of that. Massive subscriber base (dwarfs GW2s active players)…all centered around gear progression.

penatbater.4710:

It’s not really a “need”, but more of a “want”. People want progress at some form or another.
…
So is it necessary to make a fun experience? Maybe not. But do people want it? Yep. What matters now (and what separates gw2 with other mmos) is the form of that progression and rate of progress.

Both of you are probably right, but still your statement is probably not true for the majority of GW2 players. Most people playing “that other MMO” might want vertical progression but most people playing GW2 really hate it.
Having vertical progression in your game is fine if your player base is okay with it, if they don’t like it, which GW2 players clearly don’t – just take a look at the ascended gear kitten storm in November – forcing it down their throats is a bad idea.

I’m talking about progression in general, not necessarily gear progression (with the understanding that gear progression here means vertical progression). The only reason people hated t he ascended fiasco is that it was introduced after the game was launched, introducing the idea that there “might” be more tiers in the future. If this was introduced at the start, I don’t think people would have a problem with it. (but then, fractals weren’t introduced until the later part).

penatbater.4710:

I’m talking about progression in general, not necessarily gear progression (with the understanding that gear progression here means vertical progression). The only reason people hated t he ascended fiasco is that it was introduced after the game was launched, introducing the idea that there “might” be more tiers in the future. If this was introduced at the start, I don’t think people would have a problem with it. (but then, fractals weren’t introduced until the later part).

Point taken, but I have to add: The ascended fiasco isn’t over it’s still going on because the gear isn’t fully implemented yet. We still have no way to get ascended gear and infusions via crafting, karma and WvW and we are still lacking lots of stat combinations. If ArenaNet is doesn’t speed up ascended gear wont be fully implemented until the Sommer 2014 or even later. And even then getting that gear will probably still be an tedious grind fest.

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Except play the game. That is what GW is supposed to be all about. You level, outfit your toon, then just play. It worked in GW1 for 7 years.
GW2 was created as a game with horizontal progression, it was advertised as a game with horizontal progression and it was sold as a game with horizontal progression.
Players coming in now and complaining that they don’t like horizontal progression really have nothing to complain about. The arguments that “the other games has this, the other game has that” are not valid and meaningless. This is not the other game.

RochelleFreeman.5603:

Yeah I agree the game needs gear progression, without gear progression there’s basically no reason to run dungeons since you can get crafted gear that’s equally as good as the dungeon gear. Without gear progression this is why half the community hasn’t even ran Arah, instead they just run CoF over and over again.

It’s not supposed to be about the stats, your supposed to run the dungeons to get the skins. If your not interested in the skins and do not have fun doing the dungeons, then you need to find something else that is fun to do. I left the game because there was nothing for me to do, then I got invited to a guild with an old friend and I am playing again and having fun again.
My toon is complete, I have the armor, weapons and skins I want. When I play now and do dungeons, I do them for the fun of it. When not doing dungeons, I ran around with a low level alt helping my friends level their alts. I don’t have to worry about getting more equipment. If I find something good, I think about what my alts could use.
This is the way we played in GW1, this is why a large portion of the players purchased GW2. This is how Anet made the game, and this is the way we like it. If you don’t like it, I really don’t know what to tell you without getting infracted by the mods.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Except play the game. That is what GW is supposed to be all about. You level, outfit your toon, then just play. It worked in GW1 for 7 years.

What worked in GW1 was:

• Four PvE campaigns to complete, with two difficulty modes.
• Infinite combinations of professions and skills and compositions to test out
• Numerous PvP modes to play, some just to be the biggest fish in the pond, others to grind out things useful for PvE, or to exchange for money.
• Armor skins you could farm (and not get hit by DR) mats to craft
• An instance that actually changed as you progressed, reflecting your deeds (the Hall of Monuments)

I’d like to “just play” in GW2, but all it really seems to offer to the goal-oriented is CoF path 1. The activities in my list felt a lot less meandering.

penatbater.4710:

nachtnebel.9168:

Hickeroar.9734:

Some people REALLY LIKE gear progression. Actually…a LOT of people do. Look at “the other game” for an example of that. Massive subscriber base (dwarfs GW2s active players)…all centered around gear progression.

penatbater.4710:

It’s not really a “need”, but more of a “want”. People want progress at some form or another.
…
So is it necessary to make a fun experience? Maybe not. But do people want it? Yep. What matters now (and what separates gw2 with other mmos) is the form of that progression and rate of progress.

Both of you are probably right, but still your statement is probably not true for the majority of GW2 players. Most people playing “that other MMO” might want vertical progression but most people playing GW2 really hate it.
Having vertical progression in your game is fine if your player base is okay with it, if they don’t like it, which GW2 players clearly don’t – just take a look at the ascended gear kitten storm in November – forcing it down their throats is a bad idea.

I’m talking about progression in general, not necessarily gear progression (with the understanding that gear progression here means vertical progression). The only reason people hated t he ascended fiasco is that it was introduced after the game was launched, introducing the idea that there “might” be more tiers in the future. If this was introduced at the start, I don’t think people would have a problem with it. (but then, fractals weren’t introduced until the later part).

Let’s not kid ourselves, ascended gear was introduced precisely because the gear progression players were so vocal on the forums.
Fractals, a direct result of this, was a problem because it sucked people out of the maps, either because they liked it , or because they felt they had to farm it for the new best gear.

Every bad player experience, overflows, camping bosses, zerging starter areas etc. comes from that one addition to the game.
Trying to balance and spread the impact since then

Horizontal progression?
More skins for weapons, armour, more activities like mini games, more customization options, GvG, player housing, etc etc.

Stuff people have been asking for since launch.

Ascended/Fractals are not bad because all level cap progression is bad. There are several well-regarded progression systems in other games (DAoC Realm Ranks, The Burning Crusade raiding, City of Heroes Incarnate Enhancements). Ascended/Fractals are bad because they are bad. To believe otherwise is superstition (unless you think they are good, which is your choice).

Aeonblade.8709:

Who plays those all the time? The sports sure, but I think the last time I saw someone play checkers or rummy was 1984. Let’s be realistic here :P

You missed my post. Quake 3, Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Battlefield, Call of Duty, StarCraft. None of those have progression either and people still play them.

Aeonblade.8709:

TooBz.3065:

I disagree, you don’t need “progression” to make an experience fun and engaging. Chess, checkers, Gin Rummy, Bridge, Euchre, Poker, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, and a host of other activities do not have “progression” as we’ve been discussing it.

But people play those all the time.

Who plays those all the time? The sports sure, but I think the last time I saw someone play checkers or rummy was 1984. Let’s be realistic here :P

Well my parents play bridge every week. I played Euchre though college. My kids play Basketball, Baseball, and soccer. You have a point about the others.

But the point is that there are things people do just for the fun of doing them. While there is progression in competitive play, most people aren’t in that league. Instead, pick up basket ball is played for fun (for example).

GW2 has been my first MMO and it’s been a learning experience. In the future (if I play another) I will only roll1 toon. That may make gear progression more palatable. As it is now I have 7 toons and I like them all (well not the Ranger). However, gearing them all out is ridiculous, therefore, I don’t want the progression.

RebelYell.7132:

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Except play the game. That is what GW is supposed to be all about. You level, outfit your toon, then just play. It worked in GW1 for 7 years.

What worked in GW1 was:

• Four PvE campaigns to complete, with two difficulty modes.
• Infinite combinations of professions and skills and compositions to test out
• Numerous PvP modes to play, some just to be the biggest fish in the pond, others to grind out things useful for PvE, or to exchange for money.
• Armor skins you could farm (and not get hit by DR) mats to craft
• An instance that actually changed as you progressed, reflecting your deeds (the Hall of Monuments)

I’d like to “just play” in GW2, but all it really seems to offer to the goal-oriented is CoF path 1. The activities in my list felt a lot less meandering.

Most of what you are describing where additions to the game with expansions. The original game was MUCH different from what you are describing. For example, they have not even come out with the first expansion for GW2 yet so saying you had 4 expansions in GW1 really is not a valid argument.

Just tossing this out for consideration: instead of gear progression how about skin progression?
Rare skins that don’t have any higher stats but have u.nique *e.ffects and looks.
Hey Anet could even hold a monthly contest for people to submit fully fleshed out skin ideas.

Honestly it was the stories behind the “gear progression”, not to mention being forced “rent” the game that I already paid for, that prompted me to avoid WoW, and other similar games, like the plague
But I could see hunting for new, difficult to find skins as a viable middle ground.
No one gets over powered but you still get something for your effort.

P.S.
Fix the blasted language filter!
Unique and effect are not curse words!
>=(

Rash.6514:

Aeonblade.8709:

Who plays those all the time? The sports sure, but I think the last time I saw someone play checkers or rummy was 1984. Let’s be realistic here :P

You missed my post. Quake 3, Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Battlefield, Call of Duty, StarCraft. None of those have progression either and people still play them.

As I’ve said, you can’t compare those games with gw2/mmos in general. It’s like comparing Street Fighter to Final Fantasy 7. Both games are games that people play. SF has no progression but FF has. Apples and oranges.

And even then, there are still some forms of progression not obvious to games like these, match-up/fighting games. For one thing, your own skill improvement is a form of progression. Moving up in the ladders is another form of progression. League of Legends has the whole mastery/runes thing which is another form of progression. The fact is, people like improving/progress.

The major problem with this game is that its about finding what to do and it becomes boring pretty fast. Only reason I play is because of the people I’ve met, guild I run and helping others….but its extremely boring.

Explained Below:

The manifesto claimed that the game story was all about you. “This is your story” is heard at the beginning of character creation. Problem is that only the first chapter is really your story while any player joins one of the three factions later. Just so that towards the end of the story-mode your character is subjected to a Sylvari general who becomes the main character, while your character becomes the lackey of a side-kick.

Its no longer about your character’s story as much as making a general great and when the final enemy is killed, it doesn’t feel like the end of a struggle or conflict at all.

If a player runs PvP, they get nothing to further advance their character in PVE and once a player gets those skins for their character through dungeon running, there really isn’t much more in the way of upgrading for a look. Sure, one can play WvW but rather than be rewarded for winning at the end of the week, a new match starts with all servers losing all their bonuses and having everything reset.

Furthermore, a grind now exists for Ascended Equipment in the form of the daily laurels. Combine that with Guild Missions and the fact that so many builds have been affected in so many ways that players are locked into several builds that are very predictable and using builds outside of the norm becomes risky (most of the time, there are some amazing risky builds out there). WvW just introduced a grind to level several abilities that are character-bound.

The more I play Guild Wars 2, the more guild wars 2 goes from being a game about you, the character…and making your build work and playing the game the way you wish to play, to being a game where you play the way that developers want you to play.

Check out the Irony:

Guild Wars 1 was a PvP based game and it was all about you, the character finding builds and experiment from 100s of skills and using PvE to learn how to PvP and was more PvP focused and oriented.

Guild Wars 2 is PvE oriented, and while it advertises that its all about “YOU, and YOUR character”, there are so few skills that more “Racial Elites” exist than “Profession Based” elites and each new patch makes the game less and less about you.

I still like the Art Style of the game and I am hoping after the 1 year mark a lot of stuff is fixed in this game…Specially how Crafting outside of gaining levels is utterly useless (and I have them all at 400)..

Anyhow, that is my take on this game.

ShadowGryphon.6257:

Just tossing this out for consideration: instead of gear progression how about skin progression?
Rare skins that don’t have any higher stats but have u.nique *e.ffects and looks.
Hey Anet could even hold a monthly contest for people to submit fully fleshed out skin ideas.

Honestly it was the stories behind the “gear progression”, not to mention being forced “rent” the game that I already paid for, that prompted me to avoid WoW, and other similar games, like the plague
But I could see hunting for new, difficult to find skins as a viable middle ground.
No one gets over powered but you still get something for your effort.

This is precisely what GW1 did with elite armor, and I have yet to see a single person speak out against vanity progression anywhere (which we already have, really, with Legandaries, dungeon armor, special MF weapons) because that’s what horizontal progression is. It’s skins and titles and trophies and achievement points and bragging rights. And that’s okay, it’s just the power progression that a lot of people come to GW to avoid, and those that do want it honestly have most of the rest of the MMO industry to look at, because strictly horizontal progression is still a pretty niche idea.

Hell, I personally don’t even mind ascended since the stat difference isn’t that big from exotics, and its unique mechanic is only for one small area of the game, which I can still experience without it because the lower levels don’t have agony. It is totally optional, and I am opting out of it.

ShadowGryphon.6257:

Just tossing this out for consideration: instead of gear progression how about skin progression?
Rare skins that don’t have any higher stats but have u.nique *e.ffects and looks.
Hey Anet could even hold a monthly contest for people to submit fully fleshed out skin ideas.

Honestly it was the stories behind the “gear progression”, not to mention being forced “rent” the game that I already paid for, that prompted me to avoid WoW, and other similar games, like the plague
But I could see hunting for new, difficult to find skins as a viable middle ground.
No one gets over powered but you still get something for your effort.

P.S.
Fix the blasted language filter!
Unique and effect are not curse words!
>=(

I’m all for this kind of progression. I spend a fair amount of time / gold crafting firebringer and a corrupted shard.

No one NEEDS gear progression. It is a tired, old answer to the question of providing a sense of progression and brings a host of problems to a game. Get current with the best thinking in game design. There are other ways to do it—much better ways to do it.

BTW, your proposed way hasn’t worked, has it? You consumed WoW and SWTOR and both offer gear progression. And, if you haven’t noticed, Anet agrees with you. They haven’t realized, however, that the pace of their gear progression won’t satisfy the hardcore grinder. Perhaps they are beginning to notice; I haven’t really noticed.

The time is actually ripe for a new kind of MMO, one that is current with the best thinking in game design.

I’ll pass on the gear progression. Almost every kittening MMO does that, and I’ve stopped playing every-single-one because I do not enjoy chasing stats.

Raine.1394:

No one NEEDS gear progression. It is a tired, old answer to the question of providing a sense of progression and brings a host of problems to a game. Get current with the best thinking in game design. There are other ways to do it—much better ways to do it.

BTW, your proposed way hasn’t worked, has it? You consumed WoW and SWTOR and both offer gear progression. And, if you haven’t noticed, Anet agrees with you. They haven’t realized, however, that the pace of their gear progression won’t satisfy the hardcore grinder. Perhaps they are beginning to notice; I haven’t really noticed.

The time is actually ripe for a new kind of MMO, one that is current with the best thinking in game design.

Well let’s hope this new kind of MMO comes out someday in the future

Poplolita.2638:

Stars.2179:

SolidTx.3249:

Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

Let me ask you an honest question. By the same token, when you get max gear in WoW what is there to do? Honestly, I can’t figure it out. WoW has no gear progression either.

Begining of an expansion

Normal dungeon
Heroic dungeon

Raid 1
lfr gear tier 1
normal gear tier 1
heroic gear tier 1
2 months
Raid 2
Lfg gear upgrade tier 2
normal gear upgrade tier 2
heroic gear upgrade tier 2
2 months
raid 3
lfg gear upgrade tier 3
normal upgrade tier 3
heroic upgrade tier 3
2months

Next patch:

Outdoor raid
(…)
3 months
Farm valor points which has a weekly cap of 1000 to upgrade your gear.

Next patch:

Repeat

Repeat

Repeat.

And that’s why I hate WoW and love GW2. Wipe 300 friggin times on Ragnaros in the Firelands because your healer can’t figure out when to move out of the friggin rings of fire, only to have the fight become irrelevant once Dragon Soul comes out.

Endgame.

The development cycle of most MMOs and the subsequent content is fairly large and cannot keep up with the hardcore/nolifer playerbase. Most other MMOs solve this by adding a slower march to the Elite level due to the gear progression which keeps the hardcore playerbase busy until the next content release is done.

GW2 intentionally dont do the Gear progression aspect and has so far suffered from the hardcore players getting bored before the next content release happens and thus lose players. The more normal players that match their playstyle/progression with the new content releases dont hit this wall.

It would be great if the game could cater to each of these player communities and I believe the sPvP was the original intent for this faction but this clearly hasnt been a huge success.

Guild vs. Guild battles in a WvW kind of scenario (some kind of ladder system) where the Guild unlockables would come into play in a more direct way would have been a better option to solve this imo.

PS: One could even create a new set of items that “Channel” the Guild bonuses thus providing individual benefit in this scenario.

/Q

Honest Question:

Why do players leave all the gear progression MMOs that are already out there and come to the only MMO that was created expressly to be an alternative to gear grind progression?

I find there is a major distinction that is not mentioned enough in the gear progression discussion: stat progression vs. visual progression. I would venture to say that most players of this game are excited about visual progression. Working towards rare and beautiful looking gear and armor. I would also say with confidence (and judging but the kitten storm that the introduction of ascended gear caused) that many players are not as excited about stat progression.

In fact, I find the idea of increasing tiers of stat progression aka gear treadmill to be a useless idea in a game that promotes up and down scaling.

The beauty of GW1 especially was that max stat progression was achieved very early on. While the remainder of “end game” consisted of visual and achievement progression. That is where GW2 took a wrong turn in my opinion. I still enjoy the game a great deal but am dreading the day ascended weapons and armor are introduced…

Edit: I see a few posters above me mentioned the same thing, guess I should have read all the posts!

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

RebelYell.7132:

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Except play the game. That is what GW is supposed to be all about. You level, outfit your toon, then just play. It worked in GW1 for 7 years.

What worked in GW1 was:

• Four PvE campaigns to complete, with two difficulty modes.
• Infinite combinations of professions and skills and compositions to test out
• Numerous PvP modes to play, some just to be the biggest fish in the pond, others to grind out things useful for PvE, or to exchange for money.
• Armor skins you could farm (and not get hit by DR) mats to craft
• An instance that actually changed as you progressed, reflecting your deeds (the Hall of Monuments)

I’d like to “just play” in GW2, but all it really seems to offer to the goal-oriented is CoF path 1. The activities in my list felt a lot less meandering.

Most of what you are describing where additions to the game with expansions. The original game was MUCH different from what you are describing. For example, they have not even come out with the first expansion for GW2 yet so saying you had 4 expansions in GW1 really is not a valid argument.

You are right. I confess, I showed up to the party for HoM. But I liked the game. But yes, many of those PvP modes were introduced in Factions. And I liken the initial Personal Story to the Prophecies campaign (which was a downright chore to clear without heroes, I should also admit).

But in terms of cosmetic grinds, I think UW/FoW were a more accessible, straightforward model than collecting dungeon tokens, or CoF p1ing your way slowly towards a Legendary.

Anyway, I’d be very interested to see what GW2 is like when they’ve had as much time as it took for EotN to come out for GW1. Though I worry about whether its headed down a similar path.

I suggest you and everyone in the guild buy 40 character slots and repeat the process of bulking 40 times.

Enjoy.

I like gear progression. And I only get to play a few hours a day and I’m fully geared 5 more days till I’ll have full ascended trinkets. I feel once I have that there will be not much else for me to do. I have the dungeon master title and Fractal Capacitor (Infused). Currently have 4 full sets of exotic armor in my pack. I only like PvE. So I fear here really soon I will be looking for something else to play until patch days come.

There needs to be something to keep people interested regardless to what content they like.. Gear always is a nice thing to go for.

We could use some instances or some elite zones where you can get unique skins, but stats-wise exotic or ascended.

Excursion.9752:

There needs to be something to keep people interested regardless to what content they like.. Gear always is a nice thing to go for.

The problem with this is that gear progression might be what some players are looking for, but it would seriously kitten off the majority of the GW2 players. Loosing the 5%ters is better then loosing the rest.

Raine.1394:

No one NEEDS gear progression. It is a tired, old answer to the question of providing a sense of progression and brings a host of problems to a game. Get current with the best thinking in game design. There are other ways to do it—much better ways to do it.

BTW, your proposed way hasn’t worked, has it? You consumed WoW and SWTOR and both offer gear progression. And, if you haven’t noticed, Anet agrees with you. They haven’t realized, however, that the pace of their gear progression won’t satisfy the hardcore grinder. Perhaps they are beginning to notice; I haven’t really noticed.

The time is actually ripe for a new kind of MMO, one that is current with the best thinking in game design.

This.

If they completely removed Ascended and Fotm over night it wouldn’t bother me at all, i’d be shocked they did it but not upset at all, pleasantly surprised..

It was unneeded when it was added and it still is, i’d much rather chase non time gated skins than stats any day, the only reason i use Ascended at all is to keep up with the horde in wvw and the horrendous GW2 dungeons, in case i need to do them..

I live in hope for a day we get a game with GW1 gear progression, aka very little…

Also Give me skill caps over Stats any day.

I don’t really object to Ascended gear in itself as I understand that it provides people who enjoy serious grinding for BiS items a goal to work towards. I do, however, wish that Ascended gear were part of a progression that doesn’t leave out crafters completely. If ANet were to include ways for crafters to make their own Ascended items, or perhaps introduce recipes where players can upgrade Exotic items to Ascended versions via the Mystic Forge, then I’d be happy as a Charr at Meatoberfest.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Zeppelin.6832:

Hence the problem with horizontal progression. Going after different “skins” is great, but you can only wear one set of armor at the time. Eventually you’re going to settle on what you like, and then what? There’s nothing else to do on a character.

Except play the game. That is what GW is supposed to be all about. You level, outfit your toon, then just play. It worked in GW1 for 7 years.
GW2 was created as a game with horizontal progression, it was advertised as a game with horizontal progression and it was sold as a game with horizontal progression.
Players coming in now and complaining that they don’t like horizontal progression really have nothing to complain about. The arguments that “the other games has this, the other game has that” are not valid and meaningless. This is not the other game.

It did work for Guild Wars 1 for 7 years…but Guild Wars never went mainstream. It had a core group of players who adored it, including me, but everyone I knew was off playing WoW.

Guild Wars 1 sold 7 million copies over 7 years or a million copies a year. WoW has ten million active subs at the moment. Sure it was successful, but the devs want to do something “big” and to do that they need numbers. Far more numbers that Guild Wars 1 provided them. For that matter, of the 7 million people, just about everyone I know had multiple accounts, because it was cheaper to do that than buy character slots. Between my wife and I we have five accounts. So it wasn’t necessariliy 7 million people who own the game.

Guild Wars 1 had a staff of 50 people. The staff making Guild Wars 2 is five times the size. That’s a huge difference. In order for Anet to make the game they envision they need more people to play it.

I was absolutely fine with the way things were in Guild Wars 1, and I wish more people could be fine with it too…but I strongly suspect that’s not the case.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 1 sold 7 million copies over 7 years or a million copies a year. WoW has ten million active subs at the moment. Sure it was successful, but the devs want to do something “big” and to do that they need numbers. Far more numbers that Guild Wars 1 provided them. For that matter, of the 7 million people, just about everyone I know had multiple accounts, because it was cheaper to do that than buy character slots. Between my wife and I we have five accounts. So it wasn’t necessariliy 7 million people who own the game.

GW2 is just over six months old and already more than halfway to that number in sales. It will blow past 7 million in less than two years, most likely. Maybe even in a year and change. Then there’s the cash shop… So, yeah, I’d have to say that it’s a better financial success for Anet than GW1 was.

But with the larger audience comes a more diverse group of players. When you have 3 million players and 1 million of them want something, it provides a strong reason to give it to them.