Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

SolidTx.3249:

If GW2 philosophy is to make a game so a player who plays the game for 5-10 hours a week can have the same gear, look, and capabilities as someone who invests 30 hours a week – then GW2 will FAIL.

This is my idea of the perfect MMO.

Bonus: immature and elitist kids have a kitten because they can’t be better than everyone else just because they spend 12 hrs a day pressing buttons and leave.

I am no kid, far from it. And for you to assume that I am, and a bad player simply because I want the game to provide more progression features is also incorrect. I’m a John Gault like person – your a Karl Marx like person. That’s the difference.

skill, age has nothing to do with this argument. the argument is about content, or in GW2’s case the lack thereof. And why would anyone be opposed to Arena making higher level content that requires more investment, more skill, more achievement. Doing so doesnt detract from the casual player at all..

Unless the casual player is kitten off because they cant have the same thing for a lot less investment- for less work. We should call these folks welfare gamers instead of casual gamers – because that’s what you’re advocating.

Don’t let the door… yada yada.

Different people like different things. Different products exist to give them different things. This is why every song isn’t “Purple Haze” and every movie isn’t “Die Hard.” Every MMO isn’t WoW.

marnick.4305:

SolidTx.3249:

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

The big issue with gear progression lies in that sentence. You can only feel special by making the vast majority of people feel bad when they see you. People don’t play games to feel bad.

What? That’s not what he said at all. If you feel bad looking at somebody who has something that you don’t want to take the time to earn yourself, that says alot more about you than him. Why don’t you worry about yourself and not about what other people have.

There are others games that do that reward big time based around how much free time players have to kill. And this isn’t about content. They could add content that is accessible to players who don’t even have a level capped character and that wouldn’t fit into what you’re asking for now would it? Doesn’t sound like GW2 is the game for you.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Very cool and even better. So if they always had gear progression in mind, but a gentle gear progression that isn’t a gear grind, then I don’t really see the problem with that progression.

But I’d also heard prior to that that they were going to up the level cap in an expansion and that could certainly be the gear progression they had in mind. There’s nothing specific in this interview, at least that I saw, that said they were going to raise the gear progression with ascended gear specifically.

You’re putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.

So gear progression is bad but “gentle” gear progression is good? Vayne you are really piece of work, i salute you.

Gear progession is great i like when you have to raid and raid for hours ive played many mmos before such as WOW Rift DC universe Age of conan Warhammer online and i still wish for gear progession in GW2 because i love everything about from the combat to the jumping puzzles they are all great. But i just wish there was some form of tier gear or some new dungeons because rolling alts is just not for me.

Question for the oldies: Back in GW1, how long was the Sup Vigor Rune above 50k at the trader? I started playing shortly after EotN was released, at I think it was 20k at that time.

ANet said they saw a large decrease in population and that it is normal to see that.

SolidTx.3249:

tolunart.2095:

SolidTx.3249:

If GW2 philosophy is to make a game so a player who plays the game for 5-10 hours a week can have the same gear, look, and capabilities as someone who invests 30 hours a week – then GW2 will FAIL.

This is my idea of the perfect MMO.

Bonus: immature and elitist kids have a kitten because they can’t be better than everyone else just because they spend 12 hrs a day pressing buttons and leave.

I am no kid, far from it. And for you to assume that I am, and a bad player simply because I want the game to provide more progression features is also incorrect. I’m a John Gault like person – your a Karl Marx like person. That’s the difference.

skill, age has nothing to do with this argument. the argument is about content, or in GW2’s case the lack thereof. And why would anyone be opposed to Arena making higher level content that requires more investment, more skill, more achievement. Doing so doesnt detract from the casual player at all..

Unless the casual player is kitten off because they cant have the same thing for a lot less investment- for less work. We should call these folks welfare gamers instead of casual gamers – because that’s what you’re advocating.

nevermind that you call people who don’t spend their entire life in the game welfare players…

What I don’t understand is that you keep insisting that GW2 provide you with things that it is specifically designed not to do?
You seem to be beating your head against a wall for no reason.

Either accept the game for what it is and try to enjoy it, or if you cannot, find a game that gives you the things you want.

Many people play and like this game for exactly the reasons you don’t.
Why should they be swept aside for players like you?
Because they are casual?

This game has a lot of content- just not the type you want.
I also see many many people while I’m playing, all having a great time, so the model seems to be working honestly.

SolidTx.3249:

our entire guild and many others I know ran out of things to do in GW2 once we got all exotic gear and a legendary in the hands of those who wanted them. Leif Johnson (one of the few credible MMO journalists) wrote an article 3 months after release calling GW2 the easiest MMO to stop playing – and then pick up again – because the game lacks content for high level characters. It just does.

Arena has lost a huge amount of its player base since launch – and yes almost all MMOs these days do – but just because something is common place doesn’t mean we have to accept it.

There are a lot of good arguments made here on the “UN” fun aspects of grinding and doing something for the sake of doing it but it adding no real value to the game. I’m not advocating that – I don’t think anyone is. But to abandon key features in an MMO because the casual market wants to be on par with the hardcore market is INSANE.

I’m not here to bash WoW or throw rose petals at its feet. I played it for 5 years and like many of you eventually got bored with it. But it still has circa 10M paying subscribers for ONE simple reason – CONTENT!! CONTENT is king. It takes Blizz about 8 weeks for every patch that includes new dungeons and new gear. It takes the average guild and players about that time to clear that content. They have it down to a science.

Now their method of execution may not appeal to everyone here – no one is saying Arena has to do it that way. The point is there is always new stuff coming out that players can experience to make themselves AND their characters advance.

If GW2 philosophy is to make a game so a player who plays the game for 5-10 hours a week can have the same gear, look, and capabilities as someone who invests 30 hours a week – then GW2 will FAIL. It’s inveitbale. And the rationale for doing so is illogical. Make everything accessible to everyone – making a game based on COMMUNISM is STUPID. It doesnt work in governments and societies and it doesnt work in games.

WoW had LESS content at 8 months in than Guild Wars 2 does now.

Sovta.4719:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Very cool and even better. So if they always had gear progression in mind, but a gentle gear progression that isn’t a gear grind, then I don’t really see the problem with that progression.

But I’d also heard prior to that that they were going to up the level cap in an expansion and that could certainly be the gear progression they had in mind. There’s nothing specific in this interview, at least that I saw, that said they were going to raise the gear progression with ascended gear specifically.

You’re putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.

So gear progression is bad but “gentle” gear progression is good? Vayne you are really piece of work, i salute you.

Actually gear progression itself isn’t bad. Gating content based on gear is. If the gear curve is so gentle that I don’t need it to do content…then it’s not a treadmill.

You should salute me. After taking what I say out of context (or thinking of individual words instead of actual meaning) it’s the least you can do.

Reading your thread, it seems Path of Exile is the game your guild is looking for.
Endless progression, and endless content from map drops. You have to keep trying to get high level Map drops with good mods so you can keep progressing.

That’s not the kind of game I would normally play, but I’m glad I gave it a try. I’ve been having fun so far. I created a character similar to a Guardian, and actually like it a lot better.

Once I get to the point where grinding becomes necessary to progress, I’ll just either stop playing, or create a newbie character again. I’m not going to go cry on the forums asking them to stop gear progression just for my sake. I know the game was designed for people who like grinding (hell, even the company is called Grinding Gear Games)

I prefer “fair” games where there’s a level playing field and you win based on your own skill and ability, rather than how much free time you have to farm gear and level up.
I like it if progression eventually ends so I can start actually dedicating my time to becoming more skilled.
I want to win because I became a good fighter, not because I own better gear.

I like horizontal progression so that if I win, I know it’s because of my own skill, and if I lose, I try to figure out what I did wrong and practice to do better next time.

In Gw1 I’d say I spent about a couple months on character progression, but after that it was 5+ years of becoming a better player: learning how to use my skills, learning how to counter certain enemies, how to not crush under pressure, learning how to use terrain to my advantage, positioning relative to teammates and enemies, learning which enemy should be priority targets, learning how to work in a team taking into account all of our individual strengths and weaknesses, etc. And then, of course, each profession’s individual tricks.

This is why I loved Gw1.
If I had to spend all my gaming time farming gear and leveling up, I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to learn so much and become a more skilled player.

I’d say the majority of loyal fans who came to Gw2 from Gw1 wanted a level playing field, horizontal progression, “player skill over time spent” and “player skill over gear” just like Gw1. After reading blog posts and watching interviews for years, we came to Gw2 with those expectations, so we react angrily when an “outsider” comes here and asks for even more gear progression that Gw2 already has.
In part because we know “outsiders” don’t understand that philosophy from Gw1, and in part because we feel that Gw2 has already stepped on our toes so much, to please the “outsiders” rather than the loyal fans.

But regardless, it seems like anet has one foot in midair, threading a fine line between not angering Gw1 fans, and trying to give gear progression fans what they want. Not just that, but all other aspects of these kind of games.

But of course, it’s a different, new game, it’s up to ANet to decide how they want their game to be. Though it makes me sad that they lost that philosophy, it’s their money, their business, their game to do as they wish. I just wish they hadn’t lied to us and used us to spread the word about Gw2, then do a complete back-flip on us and toss us aside once they got what they wanted.

But they’ve already gone too far, I there’s no turning back now.

If you didn’t play Gw1 I don’t think you would understand. It’s a very different philosophy. But I really do think you’ll like Path of Exile. Though the gear doesn’t look as pretty, maybe it will look better when the game’s released (right now it’s in open beta).

So stick around Gw2 and see if they give you what you want. I have a feeling they will. But it will take time, because they’re being really wishy washy about it.

Or, you could just go and play a game that has what you like.

nachtnebel.9168:

A lot of the people on the forums came to GW2 (a lot of them from GW1) because of the “promise” that their won’t be any gear progression at all. I don’t know how many we really are, but for us ascended gear was clearly a step in the wrong direction. Once you hit lvl 80 GW2 should be a sandbox game and not a grind fest.

nachtnebel.9168:

Gear progression is bad and unnecessary buy nature. It forces players to do something they don’t want in order to reach content that easily could have been implemented without the requirement of an additional tier of gear.

Leiloni.7951:

The sense of being “finished” with your toon is a satisfying and refreshing break from other games.

Leiloni.7951:

But then some people are more powerful than others with their uber awesome new gear and most people don’t like that.

You can be rewarded with cool stuff without that cool stuff making you more powerful. Because if Joe No Lifer has been grinding the endgame PvE all day while I’m off working, he’s going to get more powerful faster than me and now I feel the need to keep up.

penatbater.4710:

One of the greatest pleasures of finally getting a legendary is being able to just sit in LA and just chat with people, as you’re no longer pressured to farm. ;D

^ All of this. I love being ‘finished’ with my characters and just be able to screw around, gear progression kills that.

Vayne.8563:

Sovta.4719:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Very cool and even better. So if they always had gear progression in mind, but a gentle gear progression that isn’t a gear grind, then I don’t really see the problem with that progression.

But I’d also heard prior to that that they were going to up the level cap in an expansion and that could certainly be the gear progression they had in mind. There’s nothing specific in this interview, at least that I saw, that said they were going to raise the gear progression with ascended gear specifically.

You’re putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.

So gear progression is bad but “gentle” gear progression is good? Vayne you are really piece of work, i salute you.

Actually gear progression itself isn’t bad. Gating content based on gear is. If the gear curve is so gentle that I don’t need it to do content…then it’s not a treadmill.

You should salute me. After taking what I say out of context (or thinking of individual words instead of actual meaning) it’s the least you can do.

A “gentle” gear progression is pointless. It doesn’t actually feel like progression, it just kitten es players off by making their best in slot gear not best in slot. It’s probably even more lazy and poorly designed than a normal gear treadmill.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Sovta.4719:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Very cool and even better. So if they always had gear progression in mind, but a gentle gear progression that isn’t a gear grind, then I don’t really see the problem with that progression.

But I’d also heard prior to that that they were going to up the level cap in an expansion and that could certainly be the gear progression they had in mind. There’s nothing specific in this interview, at least that I saw, that said they were going to raise the gear progression with ascended gear specifically.

You’re putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.

So gear progression is bad but “gentle” gear progression is good? Vayne you are really piece of work, i salute you.

Actually gear progression itself isn’t bad. Gating content based on gear is. If the gear curve is so gentle that I don’t need it to do content…then it’s not a treadmill.

You should salute me. After taking what I say out of context (or thinking of individual words instead of actual meaning) it’s the least you can do.

A “gentle” gear progression is pointless. It doesn’t actually feel like progression, it just kitten es players off by making their best in slot gear not best in slot. It’s probably even more lazy and poorly designed than a normal gear treadmill.

No, Clay. A gentle gear progression is pointless IN YOUR OPINION. That doesn’t actually make it pointless. It doesn’t feel like gear progression TO YOU. It kittens off a percentage of the player base, just as no gear progression does and just as a gear treadmill does. Different people like different things.

And your continual use of the word lazy, doesn’t necessarily make something lazy.

Nope, not my opinion. Lazy and useless. Get upset all you want. It’s dumb and is insulting to the players.

It’s dumb and insulting to the players in your opinion.

Answer this then: without going into a dissertation and without repeating what ascended gear does, what is the benefit to the player?

Circles. we have this conversation all the time. It’s not for players like you. It has no real benefit to you. But you’re not the only person playing this game.

For a certain type of player, it gives them something to work towards. As I’ve said many times, some players don’t see cosmetics as a reason to work toward something. They get the stats they want, they look okay and they’re done. So they stop playing. Why? Because they want to see stat progression (or at least some kind of progression).

Now, the kinds of progression that aren’t stat progression, like skill progression, they take a long time to put into the game. And they tend to unbalance things quite a bit. So Anet went with a gentle stat progression. Not enough of a stat upgrade to stop me from playing the game in rares if I want too, but something for the other type of player to work for.

As long as players want that stuff, and work toward it, it’s served it’s purpose.

But where you see something “lazy”, I see something “immediate”. It was simply the fastest way for Anet to solve the problem while working on other things.

See, this is why I didn’t ask for a dissertation. Your whole argument comes down to two things:

1) That you think it is a benefit to add grind to a game
2) That you use a benefit for ArenaNet as somehow a benefit for players

Adding grind is not a benefit for players. It is a chore. Games shouldn’t be chores. You shouldn’t have to feel like you’re “working” in a game. I prefer my games to be fun.

And, giving the players “something to do” while working on other stuff, is a benefit for the developers, not the players.

See, I knew you wouldn’t be able to come up with a real benefit, because there is none. Which is why it is both useless and lazy.

My argument comes down to two things.

1) Some people think it’s a benefit to add grind to a game (and Guild Wars 1 had some LEGENDARY grinds).

2) A benefit for the game is a benefit for people who like to play the game. MMOs are big business. I want more content for the game, which will only happen if people PLAY the game.

Right now, from my observations, people are playign the games. Certainly more than in November, which is a step in the right direction.

Giving people something to do isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Give them something to do that they don’t have to do if they don’t want to, that’s even better.

Vayne.8563:

My argument comes down to two things.

1) Some people think it’s a benefit to add grind to a game (and Guild Wars 1 had some LEGENDARY grinds).

2) A benefit for the game is a benefit for people who like to play the game. MMOs are big business. I want more content for the game, which will only happen if people PLAY the game.

Right now, from my observations, people are playign the games. Certainly more than in November, which is a step in the right direction.

Giving people something to do isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Give them something to do that they don’t have to do if they don’t want to, that’s even better.

First, we aren’t talking about GW1, we are talking about GW2.

Second, adding grind for grind’s sake isn’t a benefit. What is the benefit of having ascended gear? Why do I want ascended gear? What does it provide me that I can’t get from other gear? And, don’t say stats. That is a feature, not a benefit.

And, no matter how much you want to believe that a benefit for the developers is a benefit for the players, it isn’t. A benefit for the players is a benefit for the players. It is really that easy.

Again, I will ask: Why is ascended gear beneficial? What does it allow you to do that other gear doesn’t?

There is no good answer to that question, except for a very narrow exception in regards to running high level FoTM – which is for a very narrow group of players.

Otherwise, it has no benefit, and is therefore useless, and is therefore a poor addition to the game.

It is a fact that adding things with no benefit to a game is pointless.

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

Vayne.8563:

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

Why do they enjoy it? What about ascended gear makes it enjoyable?

You can try and use that “subjective” argument for everything, but it doesn’t work every time.

I fail to see how ascended gear adds enjoyment to the game. If people want to grind, there is already plenty to grind.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

Why do they enjoy it? What about ascended gear makes it enjoyable?

You can try and use that “subjective” argument for everything, but it doesn’t work every time.

I fail to see how ascended gear adds enjoyment to the game. If people want to grind, there is already plenty to grind.

It doesn’t matter why they enjoy it. That’s 100% completely irrelevant to the conversation. What’s relevant is that they DO enjoy it.

My dogs like pulling on rope. Why do they like it? They can’t answer, but I still buy them rope toys. You don’t have to be able to qualify why you like something for you to like it. It’s like when someone makes a movie that people like. Some people will be able to go into great depth about what they liked about it (like me) and some people won’t…but they’ll still like it Should someone stop making movies because they average person doesn’t know why they like it? Preposterous.

People don’t think deeply about their gaming experience. You do. I do. Most people don’t. So they don’t know. They just play what appeals to them.

And they have just as much right to have a game that appeals to them as you do.

Vayne.8563:

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

But that’s just it, I believe (Though I’m not sure) the largest part of the GW2 fanbase does not enjoy gear progression, because that’s pretty much what defines Guild Wars 2

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Vayne.8563:

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

But that’s just it, I believe the largest part of the GW2 fanbase does not enjoy gear progression, because that’s pretty much what defines Guild Wars 2

You believe this based on what, precisely?

I believe that the largest part of the Guild Wars 2 player base has no real prior knowledge of the game, didn’t particularly research it, they just bought the game for something to do. And that’s the problem.

People who were following the game for years, the die-hard fans like me, we’re never the majority. We’re the minority. It’s like people who buy and read books. I was a professional editor. When I read a book,it’s a very different experience than the average person who pays their $15 and they read the book and in a week, they’re done with it, and they move to the next book. They don’t have to think deeply about what made the book good or bad, and most of them don’t.

Back in October, a couple of months after Guild Wars 2 came out,. people had burned through all the content and they were complaining they had nothing to do. Real content takes time to make, so Anet put in the Fractals, which they’d probably already been working on, but added the ascended gear bit in to keep people playing the game. And for a lot of people that worked.

The population was dropping before the Fractals came into the game, and since then, from my observations anyway, the population seems to be increasing.

You don’t really have the numbers of what most people playing the game actually want. You’re just making the assumption that’s what they want, because you’re part of a group of people you’ve been associating with that seem to be prevalent.

But I don’t really believe they are.

I think the biggest “problem” with the game is that they let you hit level 80 too fast. And the dynamic events aren’t tracked, so you aren’t really sure if you’ve seen everything.

I have a few friends who hit level 80 and stopped playing because they were “done”. They hadn’t even seen every map. And on the maps that they have seen, they haven’t done most of the event or event chains. They didn’t finish their personal story because it really doesn’t seem that important to do so.

A lot of people ask what this game’s “endgame” is.

The entire game is endgame. If you go back to a level 1 zone, you’re level 1 now. Boom. Endgame. I think that is the designer’s idea of endgame, and there honestly isn’t anything wrong with that. For endgame you have 8 dungeons with 3-4 paths each, Fractals (which is technically infinite), WvWvW, Guild stuff, plus the entire base game full of stuff. I don’t see myself getting bored any time soon. Just mix it up.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Vayne.8563:

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

But that’s just it, I believe (Though I’m not sure) the largest part of the GW2 fanbase does not enjoy gear progression, because that’s pretty much what defines Guild Wars 2

But we don’t know what most players like or want. Anet obviously believes a sizeable portion of the population does like some gear progression. Unfornately they aren’t the people that followed the game from day 1. But it doesn’t mean that group isn’t a majority.

I’m pretty sure Anet has better metrics about what people want in the game than I do.

I believe so because of several reasons:
-A lot of players played GW1 before this, which didn’t have gear progression either.
-Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have gear progression yet it’s a very successful game.
-This subject has been discussed before and everytime (including now) most people turn out to be against gear progression.
-I know a lot of people in GW2 who dislike gear progression.
-The developers clearly stated (even promised) that there would be no gear progression in the game, so most people (though I’m sure not all) knew this in advance, yet they still bought the game.

Now, I’m not saying this is definitive proof, but it heavily implies that most of the GW2 fanbase either doesn’t like gear progression, simply don’t care about it or believe a certain form of progression should be implemented (just not gear progression).

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

I will quit the game if their is any more gear progression past ascended. I have spent years playing games hardcore for the gear grind and am past that, it really makes the games boring. I am just not able to grind raids for gear anymore. I like playing semi-hardcore/casual and not feeling like I am constantly falling behind if I am not there everyday or 3-4 days a week farming raids. Even ascended gear is such a small increase I don’t care if I get it and they made it easy to get now. I have 1 char out of my 6 80’s that I run through fractals very casually, that is the only reason I need ascended for.

I would really like to see some much better skins in the future, but WvW really keeps me entertained for now.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I believe so because of several reasons:
-A lot of players played GW1 before this, which didn’t have gear progression either.
-Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have gear progression yet it’s a very successful game.
-This subject has been discussed before and everytime (including now) most people turn out to be against gear progression.
-I know a lot of people in GW2 who dislike gear progression.
-The developers clearly stated (even promised) that there would be no gear progression in the game, so most people (though I’m sure not all) knew this in advance, yet they still bought the game.

Now, I’m not saying this is definitive proof, but it heavily implies that most of the GW2 fanbase either doesn’t like gear progression or simply don’t care about it.

I’m a Guild Wars 1 player and I don’t mind gear progression. I don’t like content being gated by gear, but gear progression itself doesn’t bother me.

Gear progression already existed in this game from day 1. No one said a word. That’s why you 80th level green is different from an 80th level yellow, is different from a 80th level orange. That’s gear progression. Those are tiers of gear. There are several tiers of gear you can get at 80th level. each one better than the one before it. That is gear progression. Did you complain about it at launch?

What most people hate about gear progression from other games is the gating of content. You can’t do this dungeon without this gear. You can’t do that dungeon without that weapon. It’s ridiculous. That doesn’t exist in Guild Wars 2.

Most people who play Guild Wars 2 probably weren’t huge Guild Wars 1 players. Guild Wars 2 has sold half the copies that Guild Wars 1 has sold before the first year is up. Many players have never played Guild Wars 1 and don’t know what it’s about at all.

People have been playing games with gear progression in them for years. They are conditioned for this to be part of the genre.

Anet didn’t go whole hog and make a gear progression game like WoW. They added one tier of gear, which they’re rolling out slowly, while providing slowly multiple ways of getting it. That’s not quite gear grind…which is what most people hate.

Most people don’t think about this stuff enough to know the difference between gear progression, gear grind and content gating. They’re all different things.

I think most Guild Wars 1 players who were “into the game” probably want no gear progression at all. I have very little reason to believe they are a majority.

Vayne.8563:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I believe so because of several reasons:
-A lot of players played GW1 before this, which didn’t have gear progression either.
-Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have gear progression yet it’s a very successful game.
-This subject has been discussed before and everytime (including now) most people turn out to be against gear progression.
-I know a lot of people in GW2 who dislike gear progression.
-The developers clearly stated (even promised) that there would be no gear progression in the game, so most people (though I’m sure not all) knew this in advance, yet they still bought the game.

Now, I’m not saying this is definitive proof, but it heavily implies that most of the GW2 fanbase either doesn’t like gear progression or simply don’t care about it.

I’m a Guild Wars 1 player and I don’t mind gear progression. I don’t like content being gated by gear, but gear progression itself doesn’t bother me.

Gear progression already existed in this game from day 1. No one said a word. That’s why you 80th level green is different from an 80th level yellow, is different from a 80th level orange. That’s gear progression. Those are tiers of gear. There are several tiers of gear you can get at 80th level. each one better than the one before it. That is gear progression. Did you complain about it at launch?

What most people hate about gear progression from other games is the gating of content. You can’t do this dungeon without this gear. You can’t do that dungeon without that weapon. It’s ridiculous. That doesn’t exist in Guild Wars 2.

Most people who play Guild Wars 2 probably weren’t huge Guild Wars 1 players. Guild Wars 2 has sold half the copies that Guild Wars 1 has sold before the first year is up. Many players have never played Guild Wars 1 and don’t know what it’s about at all.

People have been playing games with gear progression in them for years. They are conditioned for this to be part of the genre.

Anet didn’t go whole hog and make a gear progression game like WoW. They added one tier of gear, which they’re rolling out slowly, while providing slowly multiple ways of getting it. That’s not quite gear grind…which is what most people hate.

Most people don’t think about this stuff enough to know the difference between gear progression, gear grind and content gating. They’re all different things.

I think most Guild Wars 1 players who were “into the game” probably want no gear progression at all. I have very little reason to believe they are a majority.

What I hate most about gear progression (besides gating) is the grind. For me the game is about using “the leet gear”, not obtaining it. Unless the road to getting your gear is fun, but it almost never is (except for those who like grinding the same things for months like mindless drones).

That’s maybe the first thing that comes to mind when someone mentions “gear progression”, a boring grind.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Vayne.8563:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I believe so because of several reasons:
-A lot of players played GW1 before this, which didn’t have gear progression either.
-Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have gear progression yet it’s a very successful game.
-This subject has been discussed before and everytime (including now) most people turn out to be against gear progression.
-I know a lot of people in GW2 who dislike gear progression.
-The developers clearly stated (even promised) that there would be no gear progression in the game, so most people (though I’m sure not all) knew this in advance, yet they still bought the game.

Now, I’m not saying this is definitive proof, but it heavily implies that most of the GW2 fanbase either doesn’t like gear progression or simply don’t care about it.

I’m a Guild Wars 1 player and I don’t mind gear progression. I don’t like content being gated by gear, but gear progression itself doesn’t bother me.

Gear progression already existed in this game from day 1. No one said a word. That’s why you 80th level green is different from an 80th level yellow, is different from a 80th level orange. That’s gear progression. Those are tiers of gear. There are several tiers of gear you can get at 80th level. each one better than the one before it. That is gear progression. Did you complain about it at launch?

What most people hate about gear progression from other games is the gating of content. You can’t do this dungeon without this gear. You can’t do that dungeon without that weapon. It’s ridiculous. That doesn’t exist in Guild Wars 2.

Most people who play Guild Wars 2 probably weren’t huge Guild Wars 1 players. Guild Wars 2 has sold half the copies that Guild Wars 1 has sold before the first year is up. Many players have never played Guild Wars 1 and don’t know what it’s about at all.

People have been playing games with gear progression in them for years. They are conditioned for this to be part of the genre.

Anet didn’t go whole hog and make a gear progression game like WoW. They added one tier of gear, which they’re rolling out slowly, while providing slowly multiple ways of getting it. That’s not quite gear grind…which is what most people hate.

Most people don’t think about this stuff enough to know the difference between gear progression, gear grind and content gating. They’re all different things.

I think most Guild Wars 1 players who were “into the game” probably want no gear progression at all. I have very little reason to believe they are a majority.

What I hate most about gear progression is the grind. For me the game is about using “the leet gear”, not obtaining it. Unless the road to getting your gear is fun, but it almost never is (except for those who like grinding the same things for months like mindless drones).

I’m not having any trouble getting BIS gear in this game, but more importantly I don’t feel I need BIS gear in this game. This is where it gets interesting to me.

I do the dailies pretty much just by playing…naturally. I’m not locked out of content. Even high level fractals can be done without doing dailies, because those fractal levels existed before laurals did.

So I just get the daily pretty much playing normally and down the road, I get an upgrade for a character. Not that hard at all. I do a few guild missions, there are public ones for people not in guilds on most servers and bam, I get some more ascended gear.

And if you like fractals, you’ll get it just running them. I run fractals because I find them fun, not for the ascended gear. I already have more ascended rings than I know what to do with. All my alts have them and some I’m saving for lower level guys for when they get to 80.

I didn’t feel I was grinding during any part of this.

Vayne.8563:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Vayne.8563:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I believe so because of several reasons:
-A lot of players played GW1 before this, which didn’t have gear progression either.
-Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have gear progression yet it’s a very successful game.
-This subject has been discussed before and everytime (including now) most people turn out to be against gear progression.
-I know a lot of people in GW2 who dislike gear progression.
-The developers clearly stated (even promised) that there would be no gear progression in the game, so most people (though I’m sure not all) knew this in advance, yet they still bought the game.

Now, I’m not saying this is definitive proof, but it heavily implies that most of the GW2 fanbase either doesn’t like gear progression or simply don’t care about it.

I’m a Guild Wars 1 player and I don’t mind gear progression. I don’t like content being gated by gear, but gear progression itself doesn’t bother me.

Gear progression already existed in this game from day 1. No one said a word. That’s why you 80th level green is different from an 80th level yellow, is different from a 80th level orange. That’s gear progression. Those are tiers of gear. There are several tiers of gear you can get at 80th level. each one better than the one before it. That is gear progression. Did you complain about it at launch?

What most people hate about gear progression from other games is the gating of content. You can’t do this dungeon without this gear. You can’t do that dungeon without that weapon. It’s ridiculous. That doesn’t exist in Guild Wars 2.

Most people who play Guild Wars 2 probably weren’t huge Guild Wars 1 players. Guild Wars 2 has sold half the copies that Guild Wars 1 has sold before the first year is up. Many players have never played Guild Wars 1 and don’t know what it’s about at all.

People have been playing games with gear progression in them for years. They are conditioned for this to be part of the genre.

Anet didn’t go whole hog and make a gear progression game like WoW. They added one tier of gear, which they’re rolling out slowly, while providing slowly multiple ways of getting it. That’s not quite gear grind…which is what most people hate.

Most people don’t think about this stuff enough to know the difference between gear progression, gear grind and content gating. They’re all different things.

I think most Guild Wars 1 players who were “into the game” probably want no gear progression at all. I have very little reason to believe they are a majority.

What I hate most about gear progression is the grind. For me the game is about using “the leet gear”, not obtaining it. Unless the road to getting your gear is fun, but it almost never is (except for those who like grinding the same things for months like mindless drones).

I’m not having any trouble getting BIS gear in this game, but more importantly I don’t feel I need BIS gear in this game. This is where it gets interesting to me.

I do the dailies pretty much just by playing…naturally. I’m not locked out of content. Even high level fractals can be done without doing dailies, because those fractal levels existed before laurals did.

So I just get the daily pretty much playing normally and down the road, I get an upgrade for a character. Not that hard at all. I do a few guild missions, there are public ones for people not in guilds on most servers and bam, I get some more ascended gear.

And if you like fractals, you’ll get it just running them. I run fractals because I find them fun, not for the ascended gear. I already have more ascended rings than I know what to do with. All my alts have them and some I’m saving for lower level guys for when they get to 80.

I didn’t feel I was grinding during any part of this.

Neither did I, that’s why I like this game so much.
The point is, I want the game to stay like that.

I think the game will stay like this. I think those that are worried about vertical progression are really worried about content gating, and having to keep up. I just don’t see that happening here.

Skill > Time. We championed it in GW1, we continue to call for it in GW2.

Gear should not be the deciding factor in a fight…ever. Getting my kitten rolled because I didn’t have 10 hours a day (for ‘x’ many weeks) to dedicate to ‘gearing up’ is not fun. Many of us (I won’t use the word ‘most’ because I’d hate to imply that I’m making a general assumption. Absolute blasphemy that) have school, or work, or families and just don’t have that much ‘free time.’ If I lose a fight, I want to know its because the other person was more SKILLED than I was, not because they had better gear.

I don’t want to not be able to access content ‘x’ because I don’t meet gear requirement ‘y’. Can’t access it because I haven’t completed a specific chunk of a story? Sure, this was common (and acceptable) in Factions and Nightfall. I expect this trend; after all, it can get a little confusing if you try reading the book out of order. Can’t kill a foe because you’re not infused to defend against them…sure (Why hello Prophecies), as long as the incorporation into the game is part of the flow. But ‘requires gear rating of blah blah’? Which I now have to go out of my way for, and do some lame extra grind… Nope, no thank you.

Skill > Time.

Its fine to be a hardcore player. Its fine to be a casual or even in the middle player. It’s fine to want to be the best. But YOU be the best…don’t let your armor do it for you.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Skill > Time. We championed it in GW1, we continue to call for it in GW2.

Gear should not be the deciding factor in a fight…ever. Getting my kitten rolled because I didn’t have 10 hours a day (for ‘x’ many weeks) to dedicate to ‘gearing up’ is not fun. Many of us (I won’t use the word ‘most’ because I’d hate to imply that I’m making a general assumption. Absolute blasphemy that) have school, or work, or families and just don’t have that much ‘free time.’ If I lose a fight, I want to know its because the other person was more SKILLED than I was, not because they had better gear.

I don’t want to not be able to access content ‘x’ because I don’t meet gear requirement ‘y’. Can’t access it because I haven’t completed a specific chunk of a story? Sure, this was common (and acceptable) in Factions and Nightfall. I expect this trend; after all, it can get a little confusing if you try reading the book out of order. Can’t kill a foe because you’re not infused to defend against them…sure (Why hello Prophecies), as long as the incorporation into the game is part of the flow. But ‘requires gear rating of blah blah’? Which I now have to go out of my way for, and do some lame extra grind… Nope, no thank you.

Skill > Time.

Its fine to be a hardcore player. Its fine to be a casual or even in the middle player. It’s fine to want to be the best. But YOU be the best…don’t let your armor do it for you.

That is exactly what a lot of people like myself hope for. Too much of this game is time > skill – and it makes things boring. In my opinion.

I’m still not convinced you’d lose many, if any fights if someone had slightly better gear than you did. Because there’s so much more besides gear that determines the results of a fight.

Two guys meet…if they had the same profession, the same builds, the same skill, then the gear would be the deciding factor. But that’s not how it is.

Of course, in SPvP everyone is equal. That only leaves WvW.

Aside from the fact that the game was more or less designed to be played in groups, if you end up 1v1 with someone in WvW, your profession and builds (skill selection and traits) will have far more to do with defeating someone than a few points in power or crit. And the % chance of that deciding the winner of any fight would be pretty small.

Aside from that, when compared to Guild Wars 1, well often those victories were decided before you ever left an outpost. It was Build Wars…your build against their builds….maybe the best build win.

Arguably, if you chose the wrong skills for the team you were facing, you were gone.

Not to mention stuff like random arenas, where the team with the healer always won.

Guild Wars 1 has some definite skill things going on, but there was plenty of room for a good build just winning.

And those who went to PvX wiki and took builds off of there often did quite well, in spite of the fact that their own skill wasn’t all that crash hot to begin with.

Vayne.8563:

Aside from that, when compared to Guild Wars 1, well often those victories were decided before you ever left an outpost. It was Build Wars…your build against their builds….maybe the best build win.

Arguably, if you chose the wrong skills for the team you were facing, you were gone.

Not to mention stuff like random arenas, where the team with the healer always won.

Guild Wars 1 has some definite skill things going on, but there was plenty of room for a good build just winning.

And those who went to PvX wiki and took builds off of there often did quite well, in spite of the fact that their own skill wasn’t all that crash hot to begin with.

As I believe Ensign has more merit on this kind of topic, I will quote him as a direct retaliation to you “build wars” bs.

Ensign.2189:

FirstBlood.7359:

The nickname of GW1 among PvP’ers was “build wars”. Not the playerskill, but the team composition was the deciding variable in top matches.

People who thought this were bad at the game.

Bad teams copied the top builds and were still bad. Matches between top teams very frequently featured unorthodox skills and team compositions that were composed not for some strict mathematical efficiency reason but to enable specific strategies for that particular match. Quite a bit of the ‘build wars’ on the high end was tweaking your build skeleton to exploit particular strengths or weaknesses of your opponent – issues with energy management, reaction time, map awareness, movement, etc.

The problem GW1 had in its skill system was that it was so deep that it was totally illegible to people who were not heavily invested in the game. There was an enormous amount of counterplay around different build choices that even the best teams in the world, at their peak, were only skimming the surface of; it was so complex that no one could appreciate the depth of it.

They needed to dial that back a bit with GW2. They just overshot pretty badly, and instead of dialing it down to 10 we got a 2. There’s still plenty of room to turn it back up, it’ll just take a lot of balance work to do so.

Balance will change as the game matures. Skills will get added as the game matures. Those who want it all now can keep wanting it…but it won’t happen now. It’ll happen when it happens. If people don’t wait for it, they’ll leave.

I’m willing to bet a lot of people enjoy the game enough that they’ll be here when it changes.

Vayne.8563:

Balance will change as the game matures. Skills will get added as the game matures. Those who want it all now can keep wanting it…but it won’t happen now. It’ll happen when it happens. If people don’t wait for it, they’ll leave.

I’m willing to bet a lot of people enjoy the game enough that they’ll be here when it changes.

I thought you were talking about GW1 being “build wars”. What happened to that argument? You’re so quick to change the argument to something completely different.

I’m not changing the argument at all. At no point did I say that the combat system in Guild Wars 2 is fully fleshed out, or that everything is peachy. Guild Wars 1 was build wars, as far as I was concerned, particularly in PVe. My success for failure at doing anything was over as soon as I walked out of an outpost, assuming I was doing hard content, anyway. The build was more important than the skill in PvE, because your heroes could do everything. Didn’t matter what anyone else in your party did.

But also, we talk about depth and things like the number of viable builds. Anet isn’t happy with the number of viable builds in the game. They said so. They have ways they’re testing to fix that.

We have been talking about all sorts of stuff including depth. As the game matures, there will be more builds, and the meta game will evolve with it.

What is you about forests? Why can you only see a tree?

i agree whit you on evry lvl i burn out of this game so fast and i waited it 5 years the gear progresion is not the only problem no housing mounts gvg guild halls many core thigns that shoud be in this awesome game and finaly the utility skills are 90% ussles and i never use and the 10 slot combat sistem to limited made it 20 skills man i wanna press more things

Vayne, skill encompasses weapon choice, skill selection, reaction times, reading ones opponent, judging desirability of the battle ground, etc. Yes, all of this is very fluid and can impact the chances of winning or losing, all of which is part of a skilled players judgement. HOWEVER, taking on an opponent that has better gear, (and I’m not talking 5 defense points of difference here) can drastically change the outcome of a battle. There is a difference between gear ‘variation’ and gear ‘tier.’

We like variation. We like it very much. We do NOT like gear tiers, at least not lots and lots of them. We do not want a WoW-like gear treadmill. That very much impacts match up and becomes time vs skill. (Played WoW for 7 months. Maxed out 3 toons in that time. Called it quits, it was all I could take).

In GW1 there were 4 tiers of gear before you maxed out (count it, 4 – 15, 30, 45, and 60 for a squishie) Once you got that max tier, the armor value was always the same, although you could vary it depending on which insignia and runes you choose. That was it. No more grinding to get the next better stat. You chose to grind if you wanted a different look though. 35 options of max armor, was very nice…and OPTIONAL. You didn’t need multiple sets, unless you wanted multiple sets. Just salvage off the rune/insignia, apply the new one and go. We don’t even have that option now; now we have to have set ‘a’ for ‘x’, set ‘b’ for ‘y,’ etc. Personally, I’d like to see them go back to the GW 1 model. Few tiers, lots of options. At the very least, no additional tiers!

Edit: Skill was still necessary in PvE in GW1. Perhaps you rolled PvE HM with ease, but there were many that could not, even with heroes. Don’t take it for granted.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Skill > Time. We championed it in GW1, we continue to call for it in GW2.

The problem I ran into in GW1 wasn’t that skill was “greater than” time. It was the fact one particular setup could steamroll everything PvE side and leeched the fun out of the game as I was playing it.

Sure, it took some skill to make those strategies. It took (almost) no skill to load it off a website, gear up with the proper Attributes/Runes/Insignia and get to crushing things. That was my issue with GW1.

I still enjoyed it. You know, when I got a chance to dump off that baggage and just have fun exploring or hanging around with friends. Other than that, after I finished 90% of Hard Mode I took one look at what was left and it was such a grind for nothing.

Gear should not be the deciding factor in a fight…ever. Getting my kitten rolled because I didn’t have 10 hours a day (for ‘x’ many weeks) to dedicate to ‘gearing up’ is not fun. Many of us (I won’t use the word ‘most’ because I’d hate to imply that I’m making a general assumption. Absolute blasphemy that) have school, or work, or families and just don’t have that much ‘free time.’ If I lose a fight, I want to know its because the other person was more SKILLED than I was, not because they had better gear.

I don’t have free time much anymore. Okay, I do, sort of. However my job saps a lot of my energy and I just don’t feel like it. I log in and still am as effective as I was last week. Last month. (Except in WvW – there I’m just as ineffective as ever.)

That’s the good news. Currently, someone can walk away from GW2 for most of a week and not have to worry about being behind. I hesitate to say “for a month” because then they’d have missed Frost and Flame, with the small goodies which came out of it. (Free 12 Slot Bag, communal bonfire, and karma.)

I don’t want to not be able to access content ‘x’ because I don’t meet gear requirement ‘y’.

And this is why I stay the heck out of Fractals 10+. Also, they were fun the first few times until the PUGs decided “path of least resistance” was best for taking on some of those things. I still sort-of-enjoy the Swamp Fractal and about three others. The Volcanic and Underground can go to the Underworld.

Can’t access it because I haven’t completed a specific chunk of a story? Sure, this was common (and acceptable) in Factions and Nightfall. I expect this trend; after all, it can get a little confusing if you try reading the book out of order. Can’t kill a foe because you’re not infused to defend against them…sure (Why hello Prophecies), as long as the incorporation into the game is part of the flow. But ‘requires gear rating of blah blah’? Which I now have to go out of my way for, and do some lame extra grind… Nope, no thank you.

Thank goodness there’s one instance of that (Agony Resistance) and it’s not a strict requirement to progression. If you’re not going into Fractals 10+, don’t worry about it. Heck, if you don’t plan on going into there you can just take any problem with “Ascended Gear” attached (currently) and shove it off a cliff.

Exotics are good enough for 90% of the game.

clay.7849:

That’s because Vayne wants you to believe that Ascended Gear came from people asking for it in the forums. It didn’t. It was part of ANet’s plan all along. They have said that many times.

What they said long before launch was that exotic was top tier. What they said after the game hemorrhaged players left and right, amidst complaints of “nothing to work for,” was, “We’re adding Ascended, and by the way we’d planned this all along.” You can believe the public relations speak if you like, but we are unlikely to know what really went on.

Now, I’m not complaining about Ascended. It is what it is. However, I’m not keen to believe ANet was intending to add it all along. They had to know it would kitten off many GW1 fans, so why plan its inclusion absent the evidence that it would be wanted?

“It was the fact one particular setup could steamroll everything PvE side and leeched the fun out of the game as I was playing it.”

True, there were some builds that could make the game easy(ier)…if you could manage them. Yes, I know of some that couldn’t even manage when they took the builds right off of PvX. I won’t mention any names, but I had 2 in my guild (once upon a time) who probably couldn’t have done it on their own if you’d handed them a god mode pass. So I still stand behind that there is always SOME skill required, even for the easy mode builds and that skill should always mean more than time spent.

Every game has their gimmick builds. We’re already seeing them here in GW2 (why, hello speed clears. No ones killed you yet? sigh) But even gimmicks require skill, be it timing or synergy or what have you. You don’t just spring forth being good at them. You have to learn them, and possibly even adapt them a little bit to your play style. One size does not fit all.

IndigoSundown.5419:

They had to know it would kitten off many GW1 fans, so why plan its inclusion absent the evidence that it would be wanted?

GW1 fans were their biggest source of positive word to mouth propaganda. Had they announced a tiptoe treadmill like ascended gear before launch, they would have lost most of those old time players trying to convince potential buyers into (pre-)purchasing the game.
I’m not saying that’s how it was, but it’s a possible explanation. Another likely theory is that they were contractually bound by NCSoft to develop and end game gear progression after launch if active player numbers or gem shop sales(or any other criteria) didn’t match predictions.

Endgame Gear progression is here, it’s going to stay, and it’ll probably expand to lower gear tiers(as announced in the November 2012 blog post), although I don’t think it would make sense to apply infusion upgrades to anything below exotics. Wait, scrap that. Level 100 rares will probably be as powerful as fully upgraded level 80 ascendeds, so I guess it does make sense in the long run, depending on how far they will go with the level cap increase.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?

That’s like saying adding jumping puzzles into a game for people who like jumping puzzles isn’t a benefit. Honestly, Clay, sometimes you mystify me.

Why do they enjoy it? What about ascended gear makes it enjoyable?

You can try and use that “subjective” argument for everything, but it doesn’t work every time.

I fail to see how ascended gear adds enjoyment to the game. If people want to grind, there is already plenty to grind.

Don’t try arguing with him clay believe me, he doesn’t make any sense. Check this:“Adding something into a game that some players enjoy IS a benefit. How can anyone say it’s not?” and yet he is all against harder (new) dungeons and things like that. On some post earlier he said adding things you don’t have to do if you don’t want is even better then something and yet again he will be first to whine about endgame content that IS truly endgame while noone forces him to do it. (and i’m not talking about gear treadmill and raids)

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

Actually no he didn’t in the sense that those of us who didn’t want gear treadmills of any kind on this game (ahem ascended) left a while ago and those who still hang out here who are like that are either fooling themselves into thinking a change is coming or they like other activities like RP.

The rest of us who were banking on this game being one of the first of it’s kind to not ever be focused on dungeons or gear grind left a while back when we realized they weren’t listening to the playerbase they spent 7 years attracting.

What this game needed were all of the little activities we were promised but never received because somewhere along the way something major happened that destroyed the plans for these things.

We needed mobile/web apps to keep in touch with friends, to manage resources and crafting (which needed expanding btw not the mystic toilet), to play a lottery style game to gain resources, to chat with folks in our main activated guild.

We needed mini games in the towns, tons of them, all of them with pets as rewards or cosmetics that could be worn over armor not just townwear that were fully Level 80 gear compatible.

We needed them to leave the loot alone in November so that not only did they not have that kill-credit bug but we would still be able to farm the mats we needed to get legendaries and to equip all of our alts without making this a second job. (and yes I have a memory long enough to know better then it being a simple single mistake, they lowered the drops and changed the chests entirely I was level 80 within the first month).

There’s just alot missing that should have been there because this is the kind of thing we heard and talked about for months even a year prior to launch “did you hear what Anet is doing with this game?.”

my only wish is legendary armors with partially designable/swapable pieces from an interface. So it would be hard enough to obtain and would still look unique on every owner.

GW1 you maxed out your gear very early. Heck, if you had the money you could pay for a Droks run around level 11. Close to the 4th mission into the game. After you had that armor it stayed with you. If you wanted better looking armor you could get it but it would never increase your stats.

How did GW1 do so well if Gear Progression stopped at such an early point in the game?

Because an MMO does not need Gear Progression to be a great game. GW1 had many story missions after you reached max level and had your max gear. I think that GW2 is missing more max-level PvE content. Not FoTM or Dungeons but story content. I think that GW2 needs to have story content that you have to progress through to get to new areas. Currently I have no reason to finish my Personal Story after I hit 80. There needs to be high level areas that you need a party to get through. Make a level 85 area when our level cap is only 80. It will require teamwork to get through and make the rewards in that area worth going so that you can always find a party.

I have to say, my thoughts on gear treadmill’s has evolved some. I still do not want to see one in GW2 for everyone, but I am beginning to wonder if it might be okay if one existed via the Ascended line of gear. When it comes right down to it, I do not like gear grinds. I will not participate in it. But I want to experience as much of the game as I can. So, with that said, I don’t see why they couldn’t make the Fractal thing the GW2 treadmill. If I never do Fractal’s (and I don’t) and I am still able to do everything else in the game at the same effectiveness as I do now (PvE, dungeons, WvW, special events), why would I care if there is a whole other set of gear for people who like the Fractal stuff?

As long as that stuff does not in any way give those who own that gear any effective advantage over me in any other part of the game.

It could actually be a good thing in that ANet would be able to cater to a HUGE playerbase from that other game if they could introduce the kind of treadmill they like so much. And I would certainly find myself dipping my tow in that pool once in a while. And those who did the new treadmill would certainly spend quite a bit of time in my non-treadmill world. It’s win win as long as ANet does not allow their efforts to improve the whole game to suffer by devoting too much time or resources to the treadmill side of things.

" I am beginning to wonder if it might be okay if one existed via the Ascended line of gear. "
" So, with that said, I don’t see why they couldn’t make the Fractal thing the GW2 treadmill."

But what if you want to play fractals?