Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

Zenith.7301:

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

How can that be considered pay to win if the people asking 1200-1400g for a precursor are other players ?

Inflation is the new definition of pay to win ?

Also, how can acquisition of cosmetic items which provide no stat advantage over less expensive options be considered pay to win ?

The New definition of pay2win seems to be. " I don’t like that they can get things for cash, that I cannot get for free…Pay2win!!!"

I will never pay for a subscription in any MMO, especially one that charges an up-front fee for the box and expansions (WoW, Wildstar, ESO etc.) and then continues charging for the privilege of continuously accessing said content you’ve already paid for. Hell, ESO even locks an entire class behind a THIRD paywall.

B2P-only for me.

corbintech.7983:

I may be strange, but I would be all for a subscription option in GW2. Not p2w (I hate that) but along the lines of some perks. Maybe some gems a month? Maybe like other MMOs do and some kind of loyalty program. Maybe a buff of some sort. Who knows. Maybe with a steady stream of income they could push out content or whatnot faster.

I have no problem opening my wallet for something I enjoy and supporting a company that gives me that enjoyment.

ArenaNet gave me many years of value entertainment in GW1. I expect that to continue in GW2 and I am sure it will.

Thanks for a great game where we can simply take in the sights and be left in awww.

Subs and subs w/perks are not all they are cracked up to be. I had a monthly with Lord of the Rings Online (LotRO – Turbine) until they came out with the ground-breaking new ‘Lifetime Subscription’; you paid $60 for the game and then $200 for a lifetime sub, wherein you did not ever have to pay a monthly sub again for the life of the game.

That was until they went F2P (which was actually P2W), adding in a ‘gem-store’, thus completely eliminating the ‘Lifetime Sub’. Oh sure, they gave you ‘perks’ like a few ‘gems’ per month, but really it was a big slap in the face to those of us that were loyal since launch.

I sincerely hope that ArenaNet stays the course and follows their own path.

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Zenith.7301:

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

How can that be considered pay to win if the people asking 1200-1400g for a precursor are other players ?

Inflation is the new definition of pay to win ?

Also, how can acquisition of cosmetic items which provide no stat advantage over less expensive options be considered pay to win ?

The New definition of pay2win seems to be. " I don’t like that they can get things for cash, that I cannot get for free…Pay2win!!!"

You can absolutely get pre-cursors (and their Legendary products) for free. But yes, I see what you are leading at.

Zenith.7301:

Do you live on some basement? 15 bucks a month is chump change. 2 visits to McDonald’s by yourself will cost you more, and that’s money you crap down in a couple of hours as opposed to a sub game whose content you enjoy for thousands of hours.

Some people don’t make 2 visits to McDonald’s. Most people I know probably visit McDonald’s only when they’re late for work – in which case, paying for the convenience of fast food on the go improves the value of McDonald’s beyond just money you “crap down in a couple of hours.”

I don’t put much stock in your logic because it’s based solely on a financial premise that you feel is rewarding. Not everyone will feel that the rewards for a subscription based game and the rewards for other activities are the same, and thus the intrinsic value may or may not increase the value of the expense. While I believe nobody should judge without ever tasting both waters – people are individuals and have the capacity to decide to spend their disposable income on what makes them happier.

B2P (“buy to play”) is essentially nothing more than clever marketing. It tries to clearly distinguish the product from the over-saturated and often hated F2P market by rebranding it but B2P has been actually around for ages. Every game you ever bought was and still is B2P but when you say “an MMO is B2P” it sounds classy and better. And that’s the whole point of the marketing strategy for games like GW2.

What exactly is GW2? It’s B2P but only for the initial content you get served once you buy the game. Everything after that follows a clear F2P model which aims at keeping players in-game for the sole purpose of giving them more incentive to use the Gem shop.

“But, but, but… In Guild Wars 2 you get free content!?” Well you get free content in F2P games too, don’t you? There are literally dozens of F2P games which have regular patches and content additions. So how exactly is B2P superior to the F2P model? It is superior, but only for the publisher which not only gets all the benefits of the F2P model but also earns an extra bit with putting a price tag on the game itself.

Is it wrong to do it then? No. The content you get when you purchase the game is clearly worth the money. However, people do need to realize that after a couple of months they should not consider the game as B2P anymore because it starts to show all the characteristics of a classic F2P.

P.S. Subscription based games do have their share of advantages. I.e. if you play Eve online once you log in you will actually feel like a first-class citizen. Nothing is withheld from you. You don’t have to buy anything although you have a choice to use real money in order to get some vanity stuff (which almost nobody does anyway). And that feels great. Additionally developers have a steady income of money which they can use to regularly release new patches and expansions. You don’t feel like playing or get bored? Simply pause your subscription and resume paying it once you feel the need to play.

Serophous.9085:

shudder archeage… Mob tagging, getting stuck on a quest waiting for one guy to spawn and is instantly killed, causing bottlenecks, and character collision the likes which make you feel like a ball in a plinco machine….

But i would die for having their character editor here .. at least all those sliders to
customize the face

holodoc.5748:

B2P (“buy to play”) is essentially nothing more than clever marketing. It tries to clearly distinguish the product from the over-saturated and often hated F2P market by rebranding it but B2P has been actually around for ages. Every game you ever bought was and still is B2P but when you say “an MMO is B2P” it sounds classy and better. And that’s the whole point of the marketing strategy for games like GW2.

What exactly is GW2? It’s B2P but only for the initial content you get served once you buy the game. Everything after that follows a clear F2P model which aims at keeping players in-game for the sole purpose of giving them more incentive to use the Gem shop.

“But, but, but… In Guild Wars 2 you get free content!?” Well you get free content in F2P games too, don’t you? There are literally dozens of F2P games which have regular patches and content additions. So how exactly is B2P superior to the F2P model? It is superior, but only for the publisher which not only gets all the benefits of the F2P model but also earns an extra bit with putting a price tag on the game itself.

Is it wrong to do it then? No. The content you get when you purchase the game is clearly worth the money. However, people do need to realize that after a couple of months they should not consider the game as B2P anymore because it starts to show all the characteristics of a classic F2P.

P.S. Subscription based games do have their share of advantages. I.e. if you play Eve online once you log in you will actually feel like a first-class citizen. Nothing is withheld from you. You don’t have to buy anything although you have a choice to use real money in order to get some vanity stuff (which almost nobody does anyway). And that feels great. Additionally developers have a steady income of money which they can use to regularly release new patches and expansions. You don’t feel like playing or get bored? Simply pause your subscription and resume paying it once you feel the need to play.

I’m with you on the Eve Online thing. Thank goodness that $90 monocle didn’t work out, huh?

Nerelith.7360:

I do think that Archeage will find it’s niche.

About the " sub fee" model. instead of thinking of Archeage as " a free to play game with a subscription option." I prefer to see it as " a subscription monthly pay 2 play Model, that has a lite version for people that wish to play for free."

Last time I checked. WoW has a subscription, and only let’s players play for free til level 20.

This lets players play " Archeage lite" for free.

I agree, AA will find its niche market.

I’d been given the archeum founders pack for Archeage for my birthday, so I’ve played a fair bit in Alpha, and I did bob into a beta the other day. I can understand someone begrudging a lot in AA after playing GW2, but it’s got its three months from me to see if some things improve. I don’t really want to go into it, however, as I’m sure we’re not really supposed to compare and contrast on these forums. Let’s leave it as there are some aspects of AA that are thoroughly enjoyable, but I don’t see me dropping GW2 and never coming back.

This is because one of the best things about Guild Wars is we don’t have to pay a subscription, and we certainly don’t need to buy items from the gem shop to win (although I do frequently purchase gems, and usually to the sum of what I’d pay on a subscription). I’d still love to see an expansion proper, however; I’m not so into a drip-feed turning of the screw way of releasing new content, although I appreciate what Anet’s trying to do – and at least I can now save episodes up and play it sort of like the story part of an expansion. But the original game I enjoyed still appears to be there for the most part, so I do that. That game could use a lot of love right now, but we’ll see what happens.

holodoc.5748:

The content you get when you purchase the game is clearly worth the money. However, people do need to realize that after a couple of months they should not consider the game as B2P anymore because it starts to show all the characteristics of a classic F2P.

For GW2, I agree that this has taken place. While I still prefer the B2P over a subscription (since my life changes suddenly and I never know if I will be playing a lot or not to be able to decide if I need to pause a sub or not), I have to say I never once felt that GW1 became F2P in the sense that GW2 has.

IMO, GW2 has mostly been adding things to the gem store, encouraging sales but I do feel that they push the boundary a little bit when it comes to things in the gem store not advancing the char beyond what non-buyers can do. At first I was supporting the game freely, buying gems, but I catch myself now when I want to buy gems- where is my money going? Just to develop more things for the gem store? My gem purchases have slowed to a crawl. Now I usually just buy them IG.

I absolutely loved GW1. I could play or not play and never felt left out if I didn’t buy things from the cash shop. I never felt that I wasted money because it turned out I didn’t play much that month. It was full of content with all the expansions (I definitely liked the cut-scenes over the current people just standing there talking)

GW2 has had more of the F2P feel of late. I look forward to that changing, and will continue to play. If the day comes where it is clear that the game will never change from this current F2P model and I am not enjoying it anymore, then I will make a different decision. Until then I am still enjoying the game while trying to ignore the pushy feel of the gem store.

While I know that GW2 has indeed added content in the form of the LS, the first one left a sour taste in my mouth since my life is chaotic and I basically missed all the main events. I like the format they did with this second one, that I could play it anytime if I unlocked it (I was out of the country for part of it and still managed to unlock it), and I am hoping they continue to improve the storylines/dialogue. But I am not sure I consider the LS to be a significant content release as it presently stands. I’m sure the next LS will be an improvement as this one was to the last.

I’m just thankful they don’t raise the level cap.

Basically, my entire post was a waste of time- because I AM playing GW2 still. I think that goes for most of the posts of complaint here. We want more, but we’re waiting (either playing other games or this one). Anet has our attention and we’re waiting to see what happens.

Vayne.8563:

I’m with you on the Eve Online thing. Thank goodness that $90 monocle didn’t work out, huh?

It was a $60 dollar item and CCP learned their lesson when the “incident” happened three years ago. The whole story got blown a bit out of proportions because a lot of people actually make a living out of playing Eve online and selling characters with high amount of skill points. Combined with the fact that unlike GW2 Eve online has a free in-game market the whole monocle story would have influenced a lot of people. That’s actually the only reason why community reacted.

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Zenith.7301:

Goldberg.4831:

While I may have had my ups and downs in the last 2 years of this game, and may not always agree on the changes within the game or the gem store. I have to say as a consumer and one who has tried a wide range of MMO’s (I get bored easy), Areanet has the best subscription model hands down. Thank you for respecting me as a gamer first and a consumer second. If you don’t believe me check out what Trion is doing to archeage, 15/dollars a month for patron status, and locking crafting mats behind the p2w store.

So let’s hear it for all those happy the b2p model.

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

You’re pathetically deluded, they just put in a metric ton of gold grinds that are a roundabout way of getting people to buy gems to convert to gold on their store.

All new skins on this game have not come from content but the gem store as well. I’m willing to bet this model makes them a lot more money.

Do you live on some basement? 15 bucks a month is chump change. 2 visits to McDonald’s by yourself will cost you more, and that’s money you crap down in a couple of hours as opposed to a sub game whose content you enjoy for thousands of hours.

If you feel getting a legendary is winning, you’ll feel this game is pay to win. But there are a whole lot of cool skins you can get a lot easier than legendaries.

The pay to win, in this case, is strictly a matter of perception.

I really don’t get the I must have a legendary to play this game crowd.

Yeah, there are quite a few ‘mundane’ skins I like better than many of the legendaries, plus they don’t leave behind those silly footprints!

Same here. I could care less about legendaries I like the open world champ/boss models and the reputation ones. Those were the most fun on my Guardian for example!

However, even though there is a problem with previous promises concerning precursor acquisition I’m more concerned about the ongoing lack of rewards in the overall game. The majority of players login because of the carrot on a stick, and I’m one of them. If you don’t have goodies that are reachable in a reasonable time frame then it becomes boring a chore or a second job none of which is positive.

So there is ample room for improvement regarding sigils/runes, rewards, and loot changes.

I know a lot of people log in because of the carrot on the stick but I’m no way sure it’s a majority of the players.

Everything else you said I pretty much agree with. The rewards need to be more interesting.

I’d like to introduce you to a game, it’s called World of Warcraft. They keep players coming back because of said carrot. If that carrot was not there, there would be no millions of players. Psychologists and sociologists have written dozens of papers on this game for years because of it’s system.

I play GW2 because it is B2P. I walked away or failed to buy any game that is P2P. I enjoy the community and talking with friends. Being homebound since my stroke, it allows me to socialize with friends. My rehab has been faster due to the community. The jumping puzzles has helped me to gain some motor skills that were affected. So from this old gamer I thank you. Anet for the game and community. If you see my characters roaming around don’t be afraid to message me and say hello.

holodoc.5748:

B2P (“buy to play”) is essentially nothing more than clever marketing. It tries to clearly distinguish the product from the over-saturated and often hated F2P market by rebranding it but B2P has been actually around for ages. Every game you ever bought was and still is B2P but when you say “an MMO is B2P” it sounds classy and better. And that’s the whole point of the marketing strategy for games like GW2.

What exactly is GW2? It’s B2P but only for the initial content you get served once you buy the game. Everything after that follows a clear F2P model which aims at keeping players in-game for the sole purpose of giving them more incentive to use the Gem shop.

“But, but, but… In Guild Wars 2 you get free content!?” Well you get free content in F2P games too, don’t you? There are literally dozens of F2P games which have regular patches and content additions. So how exactly is B2P superior to the F2P model? It is superior, but only for the publisher which not only gets all the benefits of the F2P model but also earns an extra bit with putting a price tag on the game itself.

Is it wrong to do it then? No. The content you get when you purchase the game is clearly worth the money. However, people do need to realize that after a couple of months they should not consider the game as B2P anymore because it starts to show all the characteristics of a classic F2P.

P.S. Subscription based games do have their share of advantages. I.e. if you play Eve online once you log in you will actually feel like a first-class citizen. Nothing is withheld from you. You don’t have to buy anything although you have a choice to use real money in order to get some vanity stuff (which almost nobody does anyway). And that feels great. Additionally developers have a steady income of money which they can use to regularly release new patches and expansions. You don’t feel like playing or get bored? Simply pause your subscription and resume paying it once you feel the need to play.

STO and Rift also does this to some extent, when you login you don’t actually have a problem getting anything you need to play the game, the system isn’t rigged to force new players to spend money, the system rewards people for their game time, you get currency like crazy in STO now which can be converted into store currency, so people have been known to save up from normal activities and buy fleet ships with fleet weapons and gear and be perfectly happy not spending a dime.

I agree with you on the front of B2P being an excuse to gauge the players. Archeage is doing the same thing right now. These eastern style markets are slipping into the west and these people who can’t do basic math are advocating for these changes but they don’t understand they are being taken advantage of. People are actually telling others in the Archeage forums that it’s okay for that game to be labeled F2P when it’s really not, and it doesn’t matter that even the AH and loot is behind a wall, and that if they want to participate they need to get their wallet out or go home. It’s the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen humanity do!

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Zenith.7301:

Goldberg.4831:

While I may have had my ups and downs in the last 2 years of this game, and may not always agree on the changes within the game or the gem store. I have to say as a consumer and one who has tried a wide range of MMO’s (I get bored easy), Areanet has the best subscription model hands down. Thank you for respecting me as a gamer first and a consumer second. If you don’t believe me check out what Trion is doing to archeage, 15/dollars a month for patron status, and locking crafting mats behind the p2w store.

So let’s hear it for all those happy the b2p model.

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

You’re pathetically deluded, they just put in a metric ton of gold grinds that are a roundabout way of getting people to buy gems to convert to gold on their store.

All new skins on this game have not come from content but the gem store as well. I’m willing to bet this model makes them a lot more money.

Do you live on some basement? 15 bucks a month is chump change. 2 visits to McDonald’s by yourself will cost you more, and that’s money you crap down in a couple of hours as opposed to a sub game whose content you enjoy for thousands of hours.

If you feel getting a legendary is winning, you’ll feel this game is pay to win. But there are a whole lot of cool skins you can get a lot easier than legendaries.

The pay to win, in this case, is strictly a matter of perception.

I really don’t get the I must have a legendary to play this game crowd.

Yeah, there are quite a few ‘mundane’ skins I like better than many of the legendaries, plus they don’t leave behind those silly footprints!

Same here. I could care less about legendaries I like the open world champ/boss models and the reputation ones. Those were the most fun on my Guardian for example!

However, even though there is a problem with previous promises concerning precursor acquisition I’m more concerned about the ongoing lack of rewards in the overall game. The majority of players login because of the carrot on a stick, and I’m one of them. If you don’t have goodies that are reachable in a reasonable time frame then it becomes boring a chore or a second job none of which is positive.

So there is ample room for improvement regarding sigils/runes, rewards, and loot changes.

I know a lot of people log in because of the carrot on the stick but I’m no way sure it’s a majority of the players.

Everything else you said I pretty much agree with. The rewards need to be more interesting.

I’d like to introduce you to a game, it’s called World of Warcraft. They keep players coming back because of said carrot. If that carrot was not there, there would be no millions of players. Psychologists and sociologists have written dozens of papers on this game for years because of it’s system.

Yep and this game is different for a reason.

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Zenith.7301:

Goldberg.4831:

While I may have had my ups and downs in the last 2 years of this game, and may not always agree on the changes within the game or the gem store. I have to say as a consumer and one who has tried a wide range of MMO’s (I get bored easy), Areanet has the best subscription model hands down. Thank you for respecting me as a gamer first and a consumer second. If you don’t believe me check out what Trion is doing to archeage, 15/dollars a month for patron status, and locking crafting mats behind the p2w store.

So let’s hear it for all those happy the b2p model.

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

You’re pathetically deluded, they just put in a metric ton of gold grinds that are a roundabout way of getting people to buy gems to convert to gold on their store.

All new skins on this game have not come from content but the gem store as well. I’m willing to bet this model makes them a lot more money.

Do you live on some basement? 15 bucks a month is chump change. 2 visits to McDonald’s by yourself will cost you more, and that’s money you crap down in a couple of hours as opposed to a sub game whose content you enjoy for thousands of hours.

If you feel getting a legendary is winning, you’ll feel this game is pay to win. But there are a whole lot of cool skins you can get a lot easier than legendaries.

The pay to win, in this case, is strictly a matter of perception.

I really don’t get the I must have a legendary to play this game crowd.

Yeah, there are quite a few ‘mundane’ skins I like better than many of the legendaries, plus they don’t leave behind those silly footprints!

Same here. I could care less about legendaries I like the open world champ/boss models and the reputation ones. Those were the most fun on my Guardian for example!

However, even though there is a problem with previous promises concerning precursor acquisition I’m more concerned about the ongoing lack of rewards in the overall game. The majority of players login because of the carrot on a stick, and I’m one of them. If you don’t have goodies that are reachable in a reasonable time frame then it becomes boring a chore or a second job none of which is positive.

So there is ample room for improvement regarding sigils/runes, rewards, and loot changes.

I know a lot of people log in because of the carrot on the stick but I’m no way sure it’s a majority of the players.

Everything else you said I pretty much agree with. The rewards need to be more interesting.

I’d like to introduce you to a game, it’s called World of Warcraft. They keep players coming back because of said carrot. If that carrot was not there, there would be no millions of players. Psychologists and sociologists have written dozens of papers on this game for years because of it’s system.

Yep and this game is different for a reason.

That’s too funny you see because they didn’t make the game different they just added a grind and made dungeons their 2004 equivalent. So really, there’s no difference there, the only difference you perceive are the differences they said they’d have prior to launch but never put in. In a few months time when they’ve had a number of feature patches to bring this title back around to where it was before Nov 2012 then maybe you can say it’s different and not be completely wrong about it.

And even without the trinity, it’s no secret that the thing that brings players back are rewards, you can’t simply remove rewards and expect players to return, especially not in a non-sub model that’s psychological suicide for mmos. The fact is this, they had ample rewards at the beginning, but as time goes by they’ve nerfed more and more of the areas where and how rewards are handled, and you don’t think that doesn’t directly correlate to the number of people leaving the game?

I been playing Phantasy Star Online 2 JP (Sega’s flagship rpg series/mmo) for a while now and its a F2P, (with a B2P package for the physical game with a month of premium status and some promotional stuff) with a cash shop jam packed only with cosmetics and boosts like we have here. There are some pay walled stuff like you need premium to trade for high level gear (rarity level 10+) reset characters and the like, more skill slots, and to trade between players and also own your own shop to sell on, (you can get a 3 day pass for free by doing scratch offs and its fairly common to drop), but all the gear is obtainable in game very easily, its more like being impatient and buying a legendary by buying gems-> gold-> get legendary than really being pay to win. And you can just remake your two free character slots if you messed up or get free all reset passes when they make balance changes (which happen every 2 months or less).

The housing system (you get a useless free tiny room by default) is also locked behind premium, but you can purchase 3 day passes in game using a easy to get token and stack them up to 90 days total, so its no big deal either. The scratch off system also gives the 3-day passes fro the room away pretty regularly too.

I was never pressured to ever buy premium or anything to enjoy the game or get further. Same goes for here. I never had to buy gems but i did buy cards and expanded my inventory, etc. ( you can do that there too). Premium is never needed for the content as all content, levels and gear is free and open to all.

Only draw back with their model, is that you can’t use in game money for their cash shop credit. It was reasoned this way to stop these gold farmers we have so bad here (no exchange system for game money to real money/credit and the gold farmer quit and leave). And I stand behind that, but that’s a different point and off topic.

This game, is by far was the most generous and balanced in terms of treating the people that wish to pay and those that don’t fairly. If I had a job, I’d buy 90 days of premium (and expand all my character’s inventories) to show my love of the company, but only once.

Still though nothing can compare to how Arena Net and GW 2 has handled their game. I would kill to have a real housing system and more robust crafting, etc that these other games have, but I can wait for side content like that.

I always come back here for more.

I wouldn’t call this game balanced, generous or fair when it comes to the blatant differences that exist NOW that the game is 2 years old and us old heads have our characters developed geared and setup. Especially since en masse people have stopped playing their alts with the changes to something as simple as Traits for example, and let’s not even talk about the sigil/rune thing, because that market has been ever inflating since the beginning of the game, serious, it does have it’s dips and that’s normal but no one can claim that it’s as easy now to get a character setup and ready now to catchup with friends as a new player as when the game launched. I think people are so entrenched in what they have already that they don’t see the sheer number of hurdles that new players or even Alts need to go through to get up to the same point as their friends.

And it does affect the game, just look at dungeons, if you actually find a kind friendly guild than your fine but if you pug you deal with leetist behaviors and people requiring that not only are you 80 geared and zerker but that you also have a certain Achievement points to participate. Seriously, you guys are deluding yourselves LOL. Look at it from a new players point of view and I mean a new one that Just started a month ago.

Don’t misunderstand I like the game I’m loving the new direction it’s going in but the major problems I’ve seen have come from making things harder for new players, the economy and lack of rewards, and the system of loot manipulation with RNG/DR/Luck. They are moving a positive direction but there’s still a long way to go.

Oh I know, I have you problems and more. But I’m quite patient too and I can do a lot on my own. I just gave up on dungeons as well because of that facts you pointed out here.

I can’t finish my ascended gear cause I need to do dungeons and fractals. Nor can I get the nice skins I want for my alts cause of the crap I have to deal with when pugging.

I do have an army of 3 80s though and 3 20s as well.

corbintech.7983:

Taygus.4571:

You are already able to play the way you want…………..
Adding a subscription with “bonus” gems? would make people feel forced into it. This is exactly what I don’t want. And steer clear of games that make me feel that way.

You want to change this thing…that you can already do???
You just need to pick a date, and add 10$ into the game, every month, ta-da, sub.

Or, I could have $14.95 automatically come out of my account every month. No worry about a date and forgetting and no accumulating things I may not need. Ta-da, sub.

I support a sub that might give me the things I want. What about a boost to magic find for those who sub? What about any subtle little boost that might make it worth it, while at the same time not changing the game for you?

I am not for a p2w model in any way. I am for playing the way I want to and you playing the way you want to. If I like having little boosts or whatnot that enhances my gaming experience for me, why is this wrong?

I do think anet may want to add a sub for say 10 or 20$ every month, of gems bought.

Then what you do with those gems, is up to you. That way you don’t have to “think” about.

However, a sub, to give the boosts in the way you suggest. NO. I am not ok with that.

Buy your MF boost with gems.

Ye, I appreciate the fact that GW2 is b2p. Thanks to everyone who made it happen.

Subscription models do have their strengths though.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Thanks for the love and appreciation guys. It’s easy to forget the long path we’ve walked with you since before launch but we’re happy to hear these words. The Guild Wars 2 community has grown over the years but it’s been a great pleasure working with such quality fans. We appreciate the time fans take to communicate on the forums, so a big thank you!

Really so much complains about the cash-shop (what really is the payment-model) and you react on this as if thats the general opinion?

Fact is this game was released as B2P but turned into a cash-shop game what did not much good for the game. It has the same issues as most F2P games. With GW1 you had a great B2P system and thats what GW2 should have as well. No cash-shop thats bad for the game and removes much game-elements from the game turning it into a ‘gold-grind or buy it’ but an expansion every year that gives people new great (cash-shop influenced free) content.

Goldberg.4831:

While I may have had my ups and downs in the last 2 years of this game, and may not always agree on the changes within the game or the gem store. I have to say as a consumer and one who has tried a wide range of MMO’s (I get bored easy), Areanet has the best subscription model hands down. Thank you for respecting me as a gamer first and a consumer second. If you don’t believe me check out what Trion is doing to archeage, 15/dollars a month for patron status, and locking crafting mats behind the p2w store.

So let’s hear it for all those happy the b2p model.

Oow I love the true B2P model. It’s just to bad GW2 does not have a B2P payment model because there main income (there payment) is focused around the cash-shop not around buying the game (that includes expansions). It has a ‘cash-shop model’ just like most F2P games have. Including all the negatives coming with it.

As former members of Blizzard, Guild Wars followed the same model as Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft. Inital game followed on a year later with an expansion pack. Online play was free. Yes they later added a cash shop with exclusive skins and convenience items. But GW was more of a hub/instance model than a traditional MMO like UO and Everquest. It was more like Phantasy Star Online.

GW2 was going to be more like EQ, WoW and the MMOs that have come after. A world where all players can interact with one another with few instanced areas, unlike City of Heroes which you could be free to roam the world but “quest” wise was mostly instanced play.

Now “real” MMOs were subscription based but ANet didn’t want to give up on the buy once model but still wanted to add on to the game so they compromised. The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. So they went with the successful F2P model of funding MMOs. But they drew the line at pay 2 win. So the vast majority of items are convenience and appearance only. Yes they have various boosters and a lock box like most F2P MMOs offer but they haven’t offered actual items of power to the store.

So far this has done okay in terms of income. So far other than the initial price reduction from $60 to $50, store boxes haven’t ended up in the bargain bin. And online sales, well even at 1/2 off I would guess they end up with as much money as they get from store bought boxes once all the various costs and cuts get factored in. Same can be said from online gem sales Vs gem cards.

I think one of chief complaints is coming from one the more clever things they did was the gem exchange.

We have now reached the point where players who what gem store merch for nothing have now realized that it’s becoming an impossibility from pure play. I’m not saying learning to make money from flipping but I know I make a lot more coin from supplying mats, upconverting mats, selling items not to the high bidder, etc. It’s being TP/economic savvy. ANet isn’t going to up the coin drop rate because that’s truly inflationary. So it’s up to the players to supply other players with their needs as a way to earn coin in the game. And there is a lot of push back to that. There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world.

Behellagh.1468:

As former members of Blizzard, Guild Wars followed the same model as Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft. Inital game followed on a year later with an expansion pack. Online play was free. Yes they later added a cash shop with exclusive skins and convenience items. But GW was more of a hub/instance model than a traditional MMO like UO and Everquest. It was more like Phantasy Star Online.

GW2 was going to be more like EQ, WoW and the MMOs that have come after. A world where all players can interact with one another with few instanced areas, unlike City of Heroes which you could be free to roam the world but “quest” wise was mostly instanced play.

Now “real” MMOs were subscription based but ANet didn’t want to give up on the buy once model but still wanted to add on to the game so they compromised. The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. So they went with the successful F2P model of funding MMOs. But they drew the line at pay 2 win. So the vast majority of items are convenience and appearance only. Yes they have various boosters and a lock box like most F2P MMOs offer but they haven’t offered actual items of power to the store.

So far this has done okay in terms of income. So far other than the initial price reduction from $60 to $50, store boxes haven’t ended up in the bargain bin. And online sales, well even at 1/2 off I would guess they end up with as much money as they get from store bought boxes once all the various costs and cuts get factored in. Same can be said from online gem sales Vs gem cards.

I think one of chief complaints is coming from one the more clever things they did was the gem exchange.

We have now reached the point where players who what gem store merch for nothing have now realized that it’s becoming an impossibility from pure play. I’m not saying learning to make money from flipping but I know I make a lot more coin from supplying mats, upconverting mats, selling items not to the high bidder, etc. It’s being TP/economic savvy. ANet isn’t going to up the coin drop rate because that’s truly inflationary. So it’s up to the players to supply other players with their needs as a way to earn coin in the game. And there is a lot of push back to that. There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world.

“Now “real” MMOs were subscription based ”
Except for some very recently released MMO’s all games released after wow did go F2P so not sure why you think all “real” mmo’s where sub-based.
The whole talk about not being P2W is irrelevant for anybody who’s not focusing on stats. There is no fun mini hunt like in many games because mini’s are one of the supposed cash cows in GW2. That’s one example how the cash-shop focus influences the game. So it does not have to be P2W to be bad.
“The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. ”
And nobosy expedted them to. GW1 released an expansion after 6 months. GW2 would be fine with releasing one after a year. (I could even understand if the first expansion was a little later)

“There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world. ”
That’s a long way of saying the game was turned into a gold grind because of it.

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

As former members of Blizzard, Guild Wars followed the same model as Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft. Inital game followed on a year later with an expansion pack. Online play was free. Yes they later added a cash shop with exclusive skins and convenience items. But GW was more of a hub/instance model than a traditional MMO like UO and Everquest. It was more like Phantasy Star Online.

GW2 was going to be more like EQ, WoW and the MMOs that have come after. A world where all players can interact with one another with few instanced areas, unlike City of Heroes which you could be free to roam the world but “quest” wise was mostly instanced play.

Now “real” MMOs were subscription based but ANet didn’t want to give up on the buy once model but still wanted to add on to the game so they compromised. The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. So they went with the successful F2P model of funding MMOs. But they drew the line at pay 2 win. So the vast majority of items are convenience and appearance only. Yes they have various boosters and a lock box like most F2P MMOs offer but they haven’t offered actual items of power to the store.

So far this has done okay in terms of income. So far other than the initial price reduction from $60 to $50, store boxes haven’t ended up in the bargain bin. And online sales, well even at 1/2 off I would guess they end up with as much money as they get from store bought boxes once all the various costs and cuts get factored in. Same can be said from online gem sales Vs gem cards.

I think one of chief complaints is coming from one the more clever things they did was the gem exchange.

We have now reached the point where players who what gem store merch for nothing have now realized that it’s becoming an impossibility from pure play. I’m not saying learning to make money from flipping but I know I make a lot more coin from supplying mats, upconverting mats, selling items not to the high bidder, etc. It’s being TP/economic savvy. ANet isn’t going to up the coin drop rate because that’s truly inflationary. So it’s up to the players to supply other players with their needs as a way to earn coin in the game. And there is a lot of push back to that. There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world.

“Now “real” MMOs were subscription based ”
Except for some very recently released MMO’s all games released after wow did go F2P so not sure why you think all “real” mmo’s where sub-based.
The whole talk about not being P2W is irrelevant for anybody who’s not focusing on stats. There is no fun mini hunt like in many games because mini’s are one of the supposed cash cows in GW2. That’s one example how the cash-shop focus influences the game. So it does not have to be P2W to be bad.
“The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. ”
And nobosy expedted them to. GW1 released an expansion after 6 months. GW2 would be fine with releasing one after a year. (I could even understand if the first expansion was a little later)

“There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world. ”
That’s a long way of saying the game was turned into a gold grind because of it.

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

saalle.4623:

.Every PayToPlay model FAILS eventually and turns to FTP

Some MMOs I play:

FFXI, launched ’02 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so
WOW, launched ’04 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so

How long is eventually in your book?

As much as the buy to play model is good for consumers, it’s not good for the company in the extreme long term. GW1 only survived through loyal players buying expansions and the various available upgrades and vanity in the store. Despite what you may think, many players do not invest in the game beyond the initial purchase, which doesn’t do anything for ArenaNet’s sustainable income – something rather necessary to remain a company and to keep GW2 afloat.

I like B2P, but I sincerely hope that ArenaNet look in to improving their gem store items and offering more things, whether they be vanity, upgrades, or whatever, for gems to improve the long-term prospects of the game

Vayne.8563:

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

Tough to say with out going through each and every one to see what was only available from an event. 174 are tradeable out of the 263 or so minis. The ones tied to a LS achievement I believe are account bound. But so are ones that were special mini sets at the Gem Shop like the mini hippo or ones you purchased with alternate currency like the SAB ones.

Behellagh.1468:

Vayne.8563:

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

Tough to say with out going through each and every one to see what was only available from an event. 174 are tradeable out of the 263 or so minis. The ones tied to a LS achievement I believe are account bound. But neither are ones that were special mini sets at the Gem Shop like the mini hippo or ones you purchased with alternate currency like the SAB ones.

I’m not sure how this response applies to what I said.

Devata says that we can’t have nice minis or hunts for minis because so many minis are in the gem store. We can STILL have minis for rewards even though minis are in the gem store. That’s all I’m saying.

I feel this is a piece of information being ignored.

This is THE best mmo i’ve played.Yes – it has flaws and i’d be happy if the dialogue system was taken from SWTOR, as well as mounts & (guild) strongholds, but then again – we can’t have everything. Most importantly – many of my irl friends play it, and some lazy sunday hangovernoons wouldn’t be as funny and packed with virtual action if not for Guild Wars 2. Thank you, and keep up the great work Anet!

Palador.2170:

I kind of miss CoH’s hybrid mix of Free to Play and Subscription. But, I don’t think ANet can put out enough new things in GW2 to manage that model.

Please gawd no. That model was a mess and CoH went downhill quickly after its implementation. There was so much crap in CoH’s store it was ridiculous. And for returning veterans who were unable to pay for a sub, that model and and its revamp was awful if you weren’t considered long-term enough of a veteran. It is no fun coming back to a game and finding all the gear you worked so hard for was totally invalidated because you didn’t dedicate 5 years of payment to the game.

I prefer GW2’s B2P than that money-grab “hybrid” travesty any day.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

“Now “real” MMOs were subscription based ”
Except for some very recently released MMO’s all games released after wow did go F2P so not sure why you think all “real” mmo’s where sub-based.
The whole talk about not being P2W is irrelevant for anybody who’s not focusing on stats. There is no fun mini hunt like in many games because mini’s are one of the supposed cash cows in GW2. That’s one example how the cash-shop focus influences the game. So it does not have to be P2W to be bad.
“The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. ”
And nobosy expedted them to. GW1 released an expansion after 6 months. GW2 would be fine with releasing one after a year. (I could even understand if the first expansion was a little later)

“There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world. ”
That’s a long way of saying the game was turned into a gold grind because of it.

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

I’m not ignoring them. This example is not just to make a point this is an example I notice when playing the game. If most mini’s are just a gold-grind (or buy) it’s not fun to collect them anymore even if 10% is in the game. Now if a few where in a cash-shop it’s easy to ignore them but if many are it’s not.

Not to mention that many of the mini’s you refer to where only available temporary what only makes it worse because that was a grind against time and now you can’t get them anymore at all. Luckily we should not have that anymore in the future.

Many of your examples are indeed how they should be in the game. One mini for a list of achievements another for beating that challenge, another you earn with (returning) winter-day activities, anther drops in a dungeon and so on. But that’s only fun if that’s how you get almost all of them, else collecting is not fun and then you will only go for the one or two mini’s you really like in stead of having ‘collecting mini’s’ as part of your game-play.

That’s not an excuse to have a point that’s how it simply works (for me and others).
Not to mention that the fact that you see all icons in the collections does not do much good for it because it takes away the fun of discovering new mini’s.

Back half year after release I was in a minority now i’m not so sure. I see more and more complains about the cash-shop or people who say the cash-shop is part of GW2’s ‘end-game’. Not to mention the many complains not directly about the cash-shop but about things that likely are the way they are because of the cash-shop focus. (from the lack of end-content (you know like the mini examples that’s also end-content) to the lack of expansions or the heavy gold-grind)

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

“Now “real” MMOs were subscription based ”
Except for some very recently released MMO’s all games released after wow did go F2P so not sure why you think all “real” mmo’s where sub-based.
The whole talk about not being P2W is irrelevant for anybody who’s not focusing on stats. There is no fun mini hunt like in many games because mini’s are one of the supposed cash cows in GW2. That’s one example how the cash-shop focus influences the game. So it does not have to be P2W to be bad.
“The box purchased essentially paid for the development cost but due to the more complex nature of the game, they couldn’t quickly do expansions like they did with GW. ”
And nobosy expedted them to. GW1 released an expansion after 6 months. GW2 would be fine with releasing one after a year. (I could even understand if the first expansion was a little later)

“There is a contingent of players who yearn for a reward system where they earn usable loot directly rather than “work” as adventurers who sell to other players to earn coin that then they can spend to buy the loot they want. It’s a little too real world. ”
That’s a long way of saying the game was turned into a gold grind because of it.

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

I’m not ignoring them. This example is not just to make a point this is an example I notice when playing the game. If most mini’s are just a gold-grind (or buy) it’s not fun to collect them anymore even if 10% is in the game. Now if a few where in a cash-shop it’s easy to ignore them but if many are it’s not.

Not to mention that many of the mini’s you refer to where only available temporary what only makes it worse because that was a grind against time and now you can’t get them anymore at all. Luckily we should not have that anymore in the future.

Many of your examples are indeed how they should be in the game. One mini for a list of achievements another for beating that challenge, another you earn with (returning) winter-day activities, anther drops in a dungeon and so on. But that’s only fun if that’s how you get almost all of them, else collecting is not fun and then you will only go for the one or two mini’s you really like in stead of having ‘collecting mini’s’ as part of your game-play.

That’s not an excuse to have a point that’s how it simply works (for me and others).
Not to mention that the fact that you see all icons in the collections does not do much good for it because it takes away the fun of discovering new mini’s.

Back half year after release I was in a minority now i’m not so sure. I see more and more complains about the cash-shop or people who say the cash-shop is part of GW2’s ‘end-game’. Not to mention the many complains not directly about the cash-shop but about things that likely are the way they are because of the cash-shop focus. (from the lack of end-content (you know like the mini examples that’s also end-content) to the lack of expansions or the heavy gold-grind)

I wanted to collect minis in Guild Wars 1, but by the time I started playing many of the rarer ones were way out of my reach. I tried for a polar bear. No shot. I would have loved an Island Guardian but I’d never have been able to afford one. Missing those few minis was as bad for me there as missing the gem shop ones here.

Except most of the gem shop ones here are actually attainable.

Just a matter of perspective I guess. I had the same problem in Guild Wars 1 that you have here.

Kraggy.4169:

saalle.4623:

.Every PayToPlay model FAILS eventually and turns to FTP

Some MMOs I play:

FFXI, launched ’02 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so
WOW, launched ’04 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so

How long is eventually in your book?

Now name a game released after WoW and that’s older as 2 years. Any game released over that 8 year period. Btw he talked about F2P not P2W.

Ashen.2907:

Zenith.7301:

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

How can that be considered pay to win if the people asking 1200-1400g for a precursor are other players ?

Inflation is the new definition of pay to win ?

Also, how can acquisition of cosmetic items which provide no stat advantage over less expensive options be considered pay to win ?

Because endgame in this game is about skin acquisition, and legendaries also provide the flexibility of stat change without having to farm for a week to craft each different ascended item.

In WoW if I want a legendary weapon I do the hard mode raids to acquire the tokens. I don’t get it randomly gifted to me at an infinitesimally low chance by the game, gifting me months of grinding for free, or by spending hundreds of dollars in the gem store or well over 4 months grinding gold through boring zerg farm content instead of doing anything resembling skilled PvE such as high level fractals (good luck earning a legendary doing fractal runs or organized WvW play, might as well go zerg explorable dungeon speed runs and champ zerg trains).

I mean, in f2p models by your definition it’s not even pay to win. You have the option to grind your powers up, just like you have the option to farm for a GW2 legendary. But that doesn’t make the kittened gold grind any less worse and obvious as a blatant attempt to squeeze out gem sales.

Devata.6589:

Kraggy.4169:

saalle.4623:

.Every PayToPlay model FAILS eventually and turns to FTP

Some MMOs I play:

FFXI, launched ’02 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so
WOW, launched ’04 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so

How long is eventually in your book?

Now name a game released after WoW and that’s older as 2 years. Any game released over that 8 year period. Btw he talked about F2P not P2W.

Those games that released after WoW? They were kitten games. Really crappy games with really archaic concepts and poor implementation. Most MMO’s that fail today don’t have the quality of life features or polish WoW does. They just saw the MMO genre as a cash cow and tried to do more fast food type game sales.

So what if WoW’s had 9 years to develop? If you can’t release an MMO at WoW’s CURRENT standards, why should customers wait for you to develop your kittenty game through the years?

I don’t come out and compete with Comcast cable with my dial up company and then tell my customers that they should be reasonable and understand that Comcast had some years to develop in its current model. Customers don’t care, they’re paying and if they’re going to fork over cash, it’ll be over something better than the standard.

And in the case of post-WoW MMO’s, most of them were pathetic attempts at Everquest/early 2000 MMO nostalgia in an environment where most players don’t think of gaming as tedious and inconvenient time sinks.

rapthorne.7345:

As much as the buy to play model is good for consumers, it’s not good for the company in the extreme long term. GW1 only survived through loyal players buying expansions and the various available upgrades and vanity in the store. Despite what you may think, many players do not invest in the game beyond the initial purchase, which doesn’t do anything for ArenaNet’s sustainable income – something rather necessary to remain a company and to keep GW2 afloat.

I like B2P, but I sincerely hope that ArenaNet look in to improving their gem store items and offering more things, whether they be vanity, upgrades, or whatever, for gems to improve the long-term prospects of the game

P2P models have been failing the last 10 years. Wouldn’t consider that very good. And saying GW1 only survived because loyal players where buying expansions is of course also a little strange… Yeah indeed that proof that is works. P2P games only survive if loyal players are paying the sub and F2P games only survive if people buy cash-shop items. And that are all forms of investments.

And no GW2 should not have even more cash-shop stuff. Almost everything already in GW2’s cash-shop should be in the game making it a better game. Anet should be selling expansions to earn it’s main income. Being a true B2P model not more of a F2P model it is now.

Behellagh.1468:

Vayne.8563:

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

Tough to say with out going through each and every one to see what was only available from an event. 174 are tradeable out of the 263 or so minis. The ones tied to a LS achievement I believe are account bound. But so are ones that were special mini sets at the Gem Shop like the mini hippo or ones you purchased with alternate currency like the SAB ones.

But even the ones you can trade that come from the cash-shop packs are not ‘fun’ to collect because it’s just grinding gold and buying them. Then the games becomes more like working in stead of playing to me.

Anet should keep the b2p model, except….they should also add a subscription for the hardcore players. Everything should stay the same as it is now for those who only want B2P. That includes newer content in the future.

However, if you CHOSE to pay the $15 a month subscription, then you can earn 200% more gold, karma, and laurels from anything that gives those currencies. You should also get a 40% discount on everything in the gem store at all times. And at the end of each month you should get a free Black Lion Ticket. I use the percentages to make my point; I’m sure my math isn’t right.

The idea is to avoid P2W, or the pressure that you must pay to get all the cool stuff. Instead, the mindset should be that for those who really want more content and love the game can offer a way to support a constant cash flow for Anet while being compensated with what I mentioned. That way subscribers get a little more love for their rewards, but not exclusivity.

Everybody wants more content, because this game is awesome! For the haters of subscriptions, think about all the Chinese players…the Asian market is much more open to subscription than the Western! Just imagine the profits Anet! Are you hiring?

Vayne.8563:

Behellagh.1468:

Vayne.8563:

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

Tough to say with out going through each and every one to see what was only available from an event. 174 are tradeable out of the 263 or so minis. The ones tied to a LS achievement I believe are account bound. But neither are ones that were special mini sets at the Gem Shop like the mini hippo or ones you purchased with alternate currency like the SAB ones.

I’m not sure how this response applies to what I said.

Devata says that we can’t have nice minis or hunts for minis because so many minis are in the gem store. We can STILL have minis for rewards even though minis are in the gem store. That’s all I’m saying.

I feel this is a piece of information being ignored.

I guess you are not one of the person who likes that sort of stuff so that’s why you might not understand but what’s fun to people who like that is trying to collect as many mini’s as they can. Including many special ones.

They go into the world and do all the specific content for the specific mini’s (same for skins, mounts, ranger pets, crafting recipe’s and other fun items). Now it’s like “ok to get 80% of the mini’s it’s grinding gold, 10% I can’t get anymore and only 10% is going into the world to do specific content, nevermind this.”

Vayne.8563:

Behellagh.1468:

Vayne.8563:

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

Tough to say with out going through each and every one to see what was only available from an event. 174 are tradeable out of the 263 or so minis. The ones tied to a LS achievement I believe are account bound. But neither are ones that were special mini sets at the Gem Shop like the mini hippo or ones you purchased with alternate currency like the SAB ones.

I’m not sure how this response applies to what I said.

Devata says that we can’t have nice minis or hunts for minis because so many minis are in the gem store. We can STILL have minis for rewards even though minis are in the gem store. That’s all I’m saying.

I feel this is a piece of information being ignored.

Basically I wasn’t going to go through every 200+ mini to determine if they were Gem Shop or not. But the 150 from the Mini sets definitely and some of the remainder are from special gem shop sets. So some of the 89 minis you can’t trade are not from the Gem Shop. Is it a lot, a little, I don’t know. But as a whole, most minis are not earned but are purchased initially from the gem shop. That’s his point. They could have tied them to standard in game content but instead made them Gem Shop fodder, and Gem Shop fodder that went away, return for a few days, go away again, etc. to keep demand up and to drive sales.

Deveta hates with a burning passion of a thousand suns the cash shop model. He longs for the days of GW style expansions to pay ANet’s bills. That’s not going to happen ever. Not there won’t be an expansion but that the cash shop isn’t ever going to go away. And it will be full of minis and skins and special dyes that he will always look at as a cash grab. Boosters in his mind is pay to win. He is always going to come in and label the game as P2W. Always. But through all of that he does have a point or two.

Zenith.7301:

Ashen.2907:

Zenith.7301:

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

How can that be considered pay to win if the people asking 1200-1400g for a precursor are other players ?

Inflation is the new definition of pay to win ?

Also, how can acquisition of cosmetic items which provide no stat advantage over less expensive options be considered pay to win ?

Because endgame in this game is about skin acquisition, and legendaries also provide the flexibility of stat change without having to farm for a week to craft each different ascended item.

In WoW if I want a legendary weapon I do the hard mode raids to acquire the tokens. I don’t get it randomly gifted to me at an infinitesimally low chance by the game, gifting me months of grinding for free, or by spending hundreds of dollars in the gem store or well over 4 months grinding gold through boring zerg farm content instead of doing anything resembling skilled PvE such as high level fractals (good luck earning a legendary doing fractal runs or organized WvW play, might as well go zerg explorable dungeon speed runs and champ zerg trains).

I mean, in f2p models by your definition it’s not even pay to win. You have the option to grind your powers up, just like you have the option to farm for a GW2 legendary. But that doesn’t make the kittened gold grind any less worse and obvious as a blatant attempt to squeeze out gem sales.

Devata.6589:

Kraggy.4169:

saalle.4623:

.Every PayToPlay model FAILS eventually and turns to FTP

Some MMOs I play:

FFXI, launched ’02 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so
WOW, launched ’04 – no pay-to-win, no sign of it doing so

How long is eventually in your book?

Now name a game released after WoW and that’s older as 2 years. Any game released over that 8 year period. Btw he talked about F2P not P2W.

Those games that released after WoW? They were kitten games. Really crappy games with really archaic concepts and poor implementation. Most MMO’s that fail today don’t have the quality of life features or polish WoW does. They just saw the MMO genre as a cash cow and tried to do more fast food type game sales.

So what if WoW’s had 9 years to develop? If you can’t release an MMO at WoW’s CURRENT standards, why should customers wait for you to develop your kittenty game through the years?

I don’t come out and compete with Comcast cable with my dial up company and then tell my customers that they should be reasonable and understand that Comcast had some years to develop in its current model. Customers don’t care, they’re paying and if they’re going to fork over cash, it’ll be over something better than the standard.

And in the case of post-WoW MMO’s, most of them were pathetic attempts at Everquest/early 2000 MMO nostalgia in an environment where most players don’t think of gaming as tedious and inconvenient time sinks.

“Those games that released after WoW?”
Ah all games released in that 8 year period where just bad. That clear things up. However I personally disagree. There where some very good games and if they would have used a B2P model from the beginnen they would likely have been way more successful.

“They just saw the MMO genre as a cash cow and tried to do more fast food type game sales.”
That I do agree with. But that does not mean they release bad game. It did mean they all released games with the P2P model and that simply did not work anymore / for there game. Many so called professional but really incompetent financial people did see WoW and so also wanted the P2P model to makes loads of money for them. That failed and those people are now probably still being seen as professionals.. Anyway that was the problem, not so much he quality of the games.

Behellagh.1468:

Vayne.8563:

Behellagh.1468:

Vayne.8563:

Except that plenty of minis in this game are not from the cash shop at all but are obtained in game. You’re simply ignoring them to try to prove a point. Want a mini liadri…beat liadri and you get one. Want a mini clockheart. Do all the aetherpath achievements and you get one. I remember making minis associated with Christmas through the mystic forge. I remember getting a mini queen Jennah (or twelve) for my first year birthday). I remember mini reef riders, mini captain magnuses, mini clockwork knights…there have been plenty of minis in game. Why do you ignore that?

I think most people are okay with the cash shop or have at most minor concerns. I think that you’re in a very small minority.

Tough to say with out going through each and every one to see what was only available from an event. 174 are tradeable out of the 263 or so minis. The ones tied to a LS achievement I believe are account bound. But neither are ones that were special mini sets at the Gem Shop like the mini hippo or ones you purchased with alternate currency like the SAB ones.

I’m not sure how this response applies to what I said.

Devata says that we can’t have nice minis or hunts for minis because so many minis are in the gem store. We can STILL have minis for rewards even though minis are in the gem store. That’s all I’m saying.

I feel this is a piece of information being ignored.

Basically I wasn’t going to go through every 200+ mini to determine if they were Gem Shop or not. But the 150 from the Mini sets definitely and some of the remainder are from special gem shop sets. So some of the 89 minis you can’t trade are not from the Gem Shop. Is it a lot, a little, I don’t know. But as a whole, most minis are not earned but are purchased initially from the gem shop. That’s his point. They could have tied them to standard in game content but instead made them Gem Shop fodder, and Gem Shop fodder that went away, return for a few days, go away again, etc. to keep demand up and to drive sales.

Deveta hates with a burning passion of a thousand suns the cash shop model. He longs for the days of GW style expansions to pay ANet’s bills. That’s not going to happen ever. Not there won’t be an expansion but that the cash shop isn’t ever going to go away. And it will be full of minis and skins and special dyes that he will always look at as a cash grab. Boosters in his mind is pay to win. He is always going to come in and label the game as P2W. Always. But through all of that he does have a point or two.

I don’t consider the game P2W while there are a few P2W elements overall I don’t consider it P2W however that for me does not mean it’s good.

I consider it bad because one of the things I (and with me many others) love to do, is going into the world to collect such things as mini’s and dyes indeed and that whole game-element is pretty much gone.

I also don’t see it as a ‘cash-crab’ because they need to make money and if they don’t make money with a P2P model and not with a B2P model (selling regular expansions) they need to make it another way. And for a F2P (cash-shop) model GW2’s approach is reasonable.
However there is a reason that I did go for a B2P model and not a P2P or F2P model and that is because I don’t like a timer over my head (P2P) and I don’t like the many negative side effects (no matter if that’s P2W or not) that come with cash-shop models.

If they will ever change?.. Well if the income keeps dropping who knows. They do know true B2P works. GW got big because of there B2P model, GW2 exist because of GW1’s success with that model but now we have one of the many cash-shop (F2P) models with the same negatives.

Vayne.8563:

I wanted to collect minis in Guild Wars 1, but by the time I started playing many of the rarer ones were way out of my reach. I tried for a polar bear. No shot. I would have loved an Island Guardian but I’d never have been able to afford one. Missing those few minis was as bad for me there as missing the gem shop ones here.

Those were hard to obtain even with being a veteran. There are likely only about 70-100 Island Guardians left in the game…nevermind being able to actually afford one. It’s like the EL Henchman tonics, they’re so rare – even having the absurd amounts of cash to afford one won’t mean you find a seller.

When people say they want to collect rare minis in GW1, I typically assume something like Vizu or MOX rather than some of the extremely exclusive minis awarded for contests.

Zenith.7301:

Goldberg.4831:

While I may have had my ups and downs in the last 2 years of this game, and may not always agree on the changes within the game or the gem store. I have to say as a consumer and one who has tried a wide range of MMO’s (I get bored easy), Areanet has the best subscription model hands down. Thank you for respecting me as a gamer first and a consumer second. If you don’t believe me check out what Trion is doing to archeage, 15/dollars a month for patron status, and locking crafting mats behind the p2w store.

So let’s hear it for all those happy the b2p model.

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

You’re pathetically deluded, they just put in a metric ton of gold grinds that are a roundabout way of getting people to buy gems to convert to gold on their store.

All new skins on this game have not come from content but the gem store as well. I’m willing to bet this model makes them a lot more money.

Do you live on some basement? 15 bucks a month is chump change. 2 visits to McDonald’s by yourself will cost you more, and that’s money you crap down in a couple of hours as opposed to a sub game whose content you enjoy for thousands of hours.

I think this went right over your head.

P2W, are you kidding me, and I’m delusional? Show me any content in this game being gated by not having a legendary, I’ll wait.

Any your 15/a month kitten , not sure where you were going with that one. But if I feel the kitten is worth 15 dollars a month is worth it, then I’ll pay.

It’s not about the amount, it about the value. Your right, I can get thousands of hours of entertainment from that type of subscription. I also wait thousands of hours for the next patch while paying 15 a month, that too me is not value.

I’m not saying this is perfect, but it is perfect for me. If I don’t like the content I don’t pay. If I am being entertained, then I have no problem in supporting the game. I like to be able to vote with my wallet, not having it taken for granted by being in a subscription model.

I have to say I absolutely love GW2’s model.

While right now I am unemployed, you had better believe that when I was working I was throwing money left and right at the gem store, because I knew it supported the game, and they had actual things I wanted (cough black lion keys, revive orbs, fancy duds).

I spent the last few months in the ArcheAge beta, livestreaming it for my viewers, and now that their beta has come to an end I can say with an honest and open heart, I will NOT be playing the live game. Don’t even get me started on the labor point thing……..

GW2 has consistently met with my approval on the things that matter for me. Music, character customization (In beta test 1 of ArcheAge I could not make a believable black dude that looked like me, AT ALL), content (I still love livestreaming my dailies every night and LS updates every 2 weeks), and combat (PvE).

I cannot argue with the track record this game has had. Yeah games like ArcheAge look pretty, but to me, it was kind of hollow. Granted there are some things other games have that I would love to see in GW2 (for example the truly open world maps, no portals… or housing I can decorate), but then, this game was never intended to be like Black Desert.

I proudly support B2P as a model, and I am glad to see new games like Star Citizen are going to follow that route as well.

But my home, first and foremost, is TYRIA.

Zenith.7301:

I don’t come out and compete with Comcast cable with my dial up company and then tell my customers that they should be reasonable and understand that Comcast had some years to develop in its current model. Customers don’t care, they’re paying and if they’re going to fork over cash, it’ll be over something better than the standard.

Comcast has a standard? Color me intrigued.

Also that’s a semi-terrible example. I got Google fiber a year ago and it’s amazing compared to cable. It’s not everywhere yet, but you can’t say that a company can’t dip its toes in water just because of current monopolization. When fiber spreads to other cities, you can bet your kitten people will drop their cable for it – same price with 100x the speed and stability?

Does anyone else find it ironic that people are asking for a subscription from the very people who proved that a subscription doesn’t necessarily go towards content creation during the launch of this game?

Goldberg.4831:

Zenith.7301:

Goldberg.4831:

While I may have had my ups and downs in the last 2 years of this game, and may not always agree on the changes within the game or the gem store. I have to say as a consumer and one who has tried a wide range of MMO’s (I get bored easy), Areanet has the best subscription model hands down. Thank you for respecting me as a gamer first and a consumer second. If you don’t believe me check out what Trion is doing to archeage, 15/dollars a month for patron status, and locking crafting mats behind the p2w store.

So let’s hear it for all those happy the b2p model.

You mean this game isn’t p2w with precursors doubling in price from when I left at 600g now to 1200-1400g? lol

You’re pathetically deluded, they just put in a metric ton of gold grinds that are a roundabout way of getting people to buy gems to convert to gold on their store.

All new skins on this game have not come from content but the gem store as well. I’m willing to bet this model makes them a lot more money.

Do you live on some basement? 15 bucks a month is chump change. 2 visits to McDonald’s by yourself will cost you more, and that’s money you crap down in a couple of hours as opposed to a sub game whose content you enjoy for thousands of hours.

I think this went right over your head.

P2W, are you kidding me, and I’m delusional? Show me any content in this game being gated by not having a legendary, I’ll wait.

Any your 15/a month kitten , not sure where you were going with that one. But if I feel the kitten is worth 15 dollars a month is worth it, then I’ll pay.

It’s not about the amount, it about the value. Your right, I can get thousands of hours of entertainment from that type of subscription. I also wait thousands of hours for the next patch while paying 15 a month, that too me is not value.

I’m not saying this is perfect, but it is perfect for me. If I don’t like the content I don’t pay. If I am being entertained, then I have no problem in supporting the game. I like to be able to vote with my wallet, not having it taken for granted by being in a subscription model.

Well here the problem likely is how you define P2W. If a player is more into cosmetic then stats then for him ‘winning’ is getting that cosmetic and especially for a game heavily focused on cosmetics thats true. Personally in many mmo’s I did feel the ‘winning’ more when I got that drop that I wanted then whenever I killed an enemy (I do have that more in FPS games).

Now if most people talk about P2W they pretty much refer to P2Kill however you seem to be referring to it as locking content behind a pay-wall.

Is GW2 a P2W game is the most common used sense of the word? (P2Kill basically) No but for Zenith getting the Legendary is maybe what he considers ‘winning’.

About voting with your wallet. I would love to vote with my wallet. I did buy the CE edition of the game, made sure to not buy any gems and after a year I was ready to vote again for the next expansion but I never got that opportunity.

Zephyron.7081:

Anet should keep the b2p model, except….they should also add a subscription for the hardcore players. Everything should stay the same as it is now for those who only want B2P. That includes newer content in the future.

However, if you CHOSE to pay the $15 a month subscription, then you can earn 200% more gold, karma, and laurels from anything that gives those currencies. You should also get a 40% discount on everything in the gem store at all times. And at the end of each month you should get a free Black Lion Ticket. I use the percentages to make my point; I’m sure my math isn’t right.

The idea is to avoid P2W, or the pressure that you must pay to get all the cool stuff. Instead, the mindset should be that for those who really want more content and love the game can offer a way to support a constant cash flow for Anet while being compensated with what I mentioned. That way subscribers get a little more love for their rewards, but not exclusivity.

Everybody wants more content, because this game is awesome! For the haters of subscriptions, think about all the Chinese players…the Asian market is much more open to subscription than the Western! Just imagine the profits Anet! Are you hiring?