Guild Wars 2

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Whoa. Slow down. The tool isn’t elitist (if anything, it treats everyone the same, something that observation alone cannot do). Elitists will use the tool to serve their elitist principles, sure. That’s a social issue, not a technological one.

No, he’s right. The ONLY possible reason for having a tool that rates other people is to exclude them, and that’s the very definition of elitist.

A non-elitist tool would not measure other people, except perhaps in aggregate.

ANet didn’t think this through (or, maybe they did and they’re just trying to satisfy elitists).

UrMom.4205:

The third one, i’ve heard the estimation is pretty accurate with power but it gets less accurate with condi.

Correct: they cannot measure condi damage from a player, because the conditions themselves do the damage once applied.

TPMN.1483:

… if your running at 50% of the DPS you should – why should they carry you?

Since nobody on the planet can measure the value of, say, crippling your opponent via DPS, I would say that argument is a non-starter.

How much damage gets credited to the person who applied burning when other people use weapons, skills, or traits that do more damage to burning opponents?

DPS is a ridiculously bad way to measure performance. It measures only pure burst damage, but its user claims to be measuring the value of a teammate. Those things are not even closely related to each other. There is at best a loose tie between DPS and party value.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that DPS meters make a party WORSE, because they favor power builds, at the expense of survivability builds or healing builds. How much value is there in a DPS to measure your druid (vs. the rest of the party)? It’s absurd even to consider that, and I’m pretty sure even the most ardent supporter of DPS wouldn’t. But, that person fails to realize the choosing to not check DPS on the druid is a reductio ad absurdum against the whole reason for using DPS as a tool.

MikeyGrey.2496:

In my experience, an individual may be nice but people in general are kittenholes… always were and always will be. Its not like ANet tapped into some previously unknown politeness well; game mechanics enforced cooperation. Now that there is conflict, people will use anything and everything to further their cause. In the right hands, DPS meters are amazing; in the wrong hands they are enabling.
I would suggest ANet come up with their own official in-game meter. That way they can better control its influence by what is shown to who and where it is used.

Agreed. I would support a DPS meter that compared my DPS, including all sources of damage, against an average of all players. THAT would be valuable to me, as a PVE player.

Astralporing.1957:

My personal take on dps meters is that they are fine, if all in the squad agree to their use.

This is an interesting idea that ANet could easily implement. Just add a checkbox in LFG that the team will be using DPS meters. Then, only show people who have set the value the same as you did.

I can see some issues, but if it applied ONLY to generic DPS meter use, and not any specific tool, it would work.

Mea.5491:

I will never use dps meters. This is a game, I just want to have fun in my free time instead of counting and improving numbers. I feel sorry for people who only care about numbers. It’s their loss.

I won’t go that far. I would consider using one for my own improvement. But, I would need to be certain that other people couldn’t see my numbers (except in aggregate with all other users). Because frankly, it’s none of their business.

lucadiro.4519:

Because you know raid are some kind of challenge

Right, I always forget about raids, sorry. Kinda awkward that I’ve been playing MMOs since 2004 but never tried raiding. x) I don’t need challenge in games. I play MMOs to relax because I have social anxiety and gaming is the best stress reliever for me (I just ignore elitists and toxic players). That’s why I never play hard endgame content. If I want challenge I log off and play real life.

I do accept that some people like the “number game” even if I’ll never understand it. But I’m sure there are many people who don’t understand ME. :P And that’s okay because everyone’s different, we all enjoy different things. Sorry if I sounded like an @zzhole in my previous post!

Daddicus.6128:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Whoa. Slow down. The tool isn’t elitist (if anything, it treats everyone the same, something that observation alone cannot do). Elitists will use the tool to serve their elitist principles, sure. That’s a social issue, not a technological one.

No, he’s right. The ONLY possible reason for having a tool that rates other people is to exclude them, and that’s the very definition of elitist.

A non-elitist tool would not measure other people, except perhaps in aggregate.

ANet didn’t think this through (or, maybe they did and they’re just trying to satisfy elitists).

Anet did think it through. Only personal and group dps is allowed, or sharing of data between the dps meters. If someone doesn’t have a dps meter, it’s not allowed to give personal dps data. If someone can see your personal dps, that is not the team as a whole’s dps, report them

vesica tempestas.1563:

Seera.5916:

Miku.6297:

Right, I’m 100% good with responding to what others are saying. However your response should take into consideration the rest of the conversation. When you quote a user, that usually implies you are responding to the quoted post.

I have not been saying anything about banning dps meters or people using them. I’m simply saying they can be used for good or bad depending on the user.

I’m pretty sure someone stated there are a few that do actually give your squad/groups DPS opt in or not, they aren’t 100% accurate and can be a poor reflection, but I’m sure they will get better over time.

^^; so minority is pretty much just your opinion based on what you see/have seen.

Any way, what is the best opt in DPS meter floating around?

And there have been people asking for DPS meters to be banned in this thread. I apologize if my comment made you think that I thought you were one of them.

You claimed that people being jerks was a negative of DPS meters. If they would be jerks even without the DPS meters, how is that a negative of the DPS meter?

People make estimates of other people’s DPS all the time. Just not in numerical numbers and not necessarily anywhere near accurate either. High, low, non-existent, etc. Someone who would be noticeably lower on a DPS meter is likely making noticeable errors and would likely be estimated at low DPS by someone not using a DPS meter of any kind.

The problem with dps meters is that it focuses on 1 thing – dps. they are not used to evaluate altruistic behavior and they are not used to take into account stats which re a significant part of GW2 game player – boons, auras, rezzing, standing on circles of doom etc etc. Dps meters tend to be written and used by players and devs who have learned behavior from trinity based games – and they are fed with god-awful dps race style encounters which encourage the worst styles of play. Take the race element out of an encounter but make it wipe able, that’s a positive style of raiding that does not need dps-kitten and may possible end up with meters that are used in a better way.

Like I said in a previous post: people who kick based on a DPS meter readout only are jerks.

People should look at why it’s low and if it’s not a logical reason (fight mechanics, party member’s role, etc), then a player should be asked and given at least a couple of chances to correct their mistakes before being kicked.

And people were already DPS focused even without DPS meters. Getting rid of DPS meters will not solve the problem. Raid mechanics would have to be changed in order to do that, and even then there will be groups that will still be DPS focused.

I find these post hilarious.
To OP if you think people that use DPS are elitist , i think that people with your mentality is elitist and toxic.
Here is my reasoning:
In open world nobody gives a kitten about dps, so DPS meter are only used in 2 types of content: Fractals and Raids. These content are not solo, its a group content.
You say that people shouldnt be allowed to see your dps, but its OK if you make other 9 people waste their time and they cant see why ( because now dps meter are not allowed ) or in fractals its ok to make the other 4 people take 30-40 mins more of their time, because you want to play your way.

Its simple want to play in your way play alone, want to play in group content? Everybody need to be in the same page, if everyone wants to do 0 dps thats ok, but if the group want to clear it fast who are you to say how the other 4 of the groups need to play?

Daddicus.6128:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Whoa. Slow down. The tool isn’t elitist (if anything, it treats everyone the same, something that observation alone cannot do). Elitists will use the tool to serve their elitist principles, sure. That’s a social issue, not a technological one.

No, he’s right. The ONLY possible reason for having a tool that rates other people is to exclude them, and that’s the very definition of elitist.

A non-elitist tool would not measure other people, except perhaps in aggregate.

ANet didn’t think this through (or, maybe they did and they’re just trying to satisfy elitists).

You’re incorrect — have you not been reading all the other reasons that people are interested in seeing other people’s DPS besides /kicking?

Besides that, the main “compliant” DPS tools estimate non-user DPS.

ANet did think things through; however, many critics of meters haven’t taken the time to re-evaluate their opinion.

In the end, it comes down to this: do we have specific examples of people who never kicked in the past now choosing to kick because of DPS meters? Is it actually worse for people to kick over DPS (since it’s just a single number that doesn’t cover other elements of a good fight) as opposed to people who kicked over AP (also a single number), LI (ditto), gear, or prof?

Miku.6297:

lucadiro.4519:

p.s.: even if I run a dps meter, that doesn’t display other DPS, i still never say nothing to other player of they like provide poor quickness, GotL or alacrity. Nor I say nothing if we fail because not enough DPS or because someone make mistake at doing mechanics.
If for me the group can get the kill, I try untill we do it or the group disband. If I think the group can’t do it, i Just leave without blame people

100% Support this attitude!

I am using a meter that can see the dps of all party members (estimated dps). I mentioned that in a raid this weekend and people asked me how they were doing and were interested in their performance. I didnt blame anyone or flamed in squad chat to kick underperformers. I told one guy (after he asked me) that he was underperforming (and by that i mean he was doing half of what the other dps classes did in the same squad). He improved after that and got into the top dps for the next tries until we got the kill.

If hed ran that meter himself he would have benefitet earlier. And thats true for a lot of persons.

+1 to OP

I also completely disagree with use of DPS meters, they brought nothing but toxicity so far in raids i have been in. I don’t wanna sit on ts and listening to some guy with said tool flaming other people. Sure, you can kick him but then another dps tool zombie will join. This tool is like a disease that keeps spreading.

Just other week i had to defend our chrono tank because one of those dps zombies was complaining about not having 100% alacrity uptime – well no flying kitty watson, maybe stand in wells for once? When this guy became really annoying i told him to go play a tank for us and show us how to keep 100% alacrity on everyone in real raid environment – he shut his hole finally. I don’t want to deal with this kind of crap but i am forced to because Anet gave their blessing to this harassment tool.

If Anet agrees with abuse of such tool and all the negative consequences, they could at least give us tools to protect us against such thing if we do not wish to participate. Atm i have no choice. When i got this game i never agreed that my data is to read by 3rd party software.

Sephas.8793:

What are you doing that you are getting harassed by players with DPS meters?

I luckily didn’t get harassed yet but i have heard enough of flaming and discussions on ts because of this thing and i am sick and tired of it. Not only we had to filter bad players, now we have to filter toxic morons with their dps tools.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Whoa. Slow down. The tool isn’t elitist (if anything, it treats everyone the same, something that observation alone cannot do). Elitists will use the tool to serve their elitist principles, sure. That’s a social issue, not a technological one.

No, he’s right. The ONLY possible reason for having a tool that rates other people is to exclude them, and that’s the very definition of elitist.

A non-elitist tool would not measure other people, except perhaps in aggregate.

ANet didn’t think this through (or, maybe they did and they’re just trying to satisfy elitists).

Anet did think it through. Only personal and group dps is allowed, or sharing of data between the dps meters. If someone doesn’t have a dps meter, it’s not allowed to give personal dps data. If someone can see your personal dps, that is not the team as a whole’s dps, report them

I hope you are aware that reports do nothing in this game? I would have to make an actual ticket if i want support at least read the name of the player.

OniGiri.9461:

Miku.6297:

lucadiro.4519:

p.s.: even if I run a dps meter, that doesn’t display other DPS, i still never say nothing to other player of they like provide poor quickness, GotL or alacrity. Nor I say nothing if we fail because not enough DPS or because someone make mistake at doing mechanics.
If for me the group can get the kill, I try untill we do it or the group disband. If I think the group can’t do it, i Just leave without blame people

100% Support this attitude!

I am using a meter that can see the dps of all party members (estimated dps). I mentioned that in a raid this weekend and people asked me how they were doing and were interested in their performance. I didnt blame anyone or flamed in squad chat to kick underperformers. I told one guy (after he asked me) that he was underperforming (and by that i mean he was doing half of what the other dps classes did in the same squad). He improved after that and got into the top dps for the next tries until we got the kill.

If hed ran that meter himself he would have benefitet earlier. And thats true for a lot of persons.

Exactly, as I said earlier, I don’t raid in GW2, I don’t even do dungeons/fractals. I used to raid in WoW however and I always used a DPS meter in that game, because your build only gives you less than half the picture; you need a good rotation, you need good placement and GW2 is no different. I can have the best build in the world, my gear could be best in slot and my DPS could still be terrible if I’m (for example) standing just outside melee range swinging my weapon at nothing.

A DPS meter is a useful tool for people who want to get better at the game. Some may abuse it, some will abuse any tool.

Cynz.9437:

+1 to OP

I also completely disagree with use of DPS meters, they brought nothing but toxicity so far in raids i have been in.

Then maybe you need to find different teams to play with. They have brought nothing but support and helpfulness to teams I’ve been in raids with.

Cynz.9437:

Just other week i had to defend our chrono tank because one of those dps zombies was complaining about not having 100% alacrity uptime – well no flying kitty watson, maybe stand in wells for once? When this guy became really annoying i told him to go play a tank for us and show us how to keep 100% alacrity on everyone in real raid environment – he shut his hole finally. I don’t want to deal with this kind of crap but i am forced to because Anet gave their blessing to this harassment tool.

What have this to do with a dps meter? I mean, you don’t need a dps meter to understand if you have poor alacrity (or every other buff) uptime.
So he could blame anyway even without it.
I saw tons of people complain and leaving before the dps meter were allowed, because no distortion in Key moment or not perma quickness, alacrity etc etc

I mean I killed KC several time, then I wanted to do that thing for the collection and put on the poison, and someone saw it and left before even try blaming me I was a fisrt timer and he didnt want to waste time (and we got the kill at the First try ).
Once I joined a group and had signet of the Stone on my druid because I was doing things in open pve, I took the rift, I went to the group and before I could even change it I got kicked because OMG signet of Stone you noob.

So a toxic player is a toxic player… And would blame and ragequit/kick even without a dps meter. It always been like this.
DPS meter is not the problem here, is the player’s mentality and attitude.
A smart player, even if he use a dps meter doesnt put toxicity in even if he see someone Providing poor DPS, or buffs, because he know you don’t need Qt DPS to get a kill.
Because if you dont fail at doing mechanics, you can get everykill even with a mediocre dps

Cynz.9437:

+1 to OP

Just other week i had to defend our chrono tank because one of those dps zombies was complaining about not having 100% alacrity uptime – well no flying kitty watson, maybe stand in wells for once? When this guy became really annoying i told him to go play a tank for us and show us how to keep 100% alacrity on everyone in real raid environment – he shut his hole finally. I don’t want to deal with this kind of crap but i am forced to because Anet gave their blessing to this harassment tool.

How much alacrity did the player have?
How much alacrity did you have?
How much alacrity did the Chronomancer produce?
How much alacrity did the group/supgroup have?

How much quickness did the player have?
How much quickness did you have?
How much quickness did the Chronomancer produce?
How much quickness did the group/subgroup have?

You present evidence against dps-meters while your example lacks crucial infomation and does nothing to help prove your point. Players do not need dps-meters to evaluate quickness/alacrity uptime. The Game shows that already in form of boons in your buffbar.

We do not know if the players in question was wrong or right. It is just as likely that the Chronomancer in your squad did a worse role than your average chrono. This is very important because there is no reason to take a chronotank at all if the player cannot uphold at least a certain percentage of quickness/alacrity uptime for your group. Before you disregard this information as elitists though, just a little reminder:

If it weren’t for dps-testing, buff evaluating and composition theory crafting by top-guilds like qT, SC, DnT and similar groups your chronotank would not be a thing because, as hilarious as it sounds, the class can boost other classes damage by a lot while the class itself, even with damage oriented gear, is rather lackluster.

Concerning this players ability to read his/yours/the chronos buff uptime:

Tools like BDGM do not need to see your dps in order to read your boons. The game already does that. BDGM in this case just makes it easier to read and interprete. You might just as well capture your tries with a recording tool, watch it frame by frame and count the seconds in which you had alacrity/quickness on you. BDGM only accelarates the process and makes it more userfriendly.

Regarding the topic as a whole I’m more concerned about the presented picture that A-Net should return to their earlier stance because players in this thread “feel”, “fear”, “believe” or (in short) “have the opinion” that dps-meters are bad rather than providing actual evidence – besides cynz – to prove the increased toxicity within the community.

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime problem) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.
This wasn’t the only case. I have been in groups where some idiot couldn’t shut up about everyone’s dps and ignored mechanics just for sake of getting highest dps.

How do you want me to prove it? Start recording TS conversations? That would fall into flaming and shaming category if i dared to post it here. Prove me that those tools didn’t increase toxicity in the groups.

Amaimon.7823:

Cynz.9437:

+1 to OP

I also completely disagree with use of DPS meters, they brought nothing but toxicity so far in raids i have been in.

Then maybe you need to find different teams to play with. They have brought nothing but support and helpfulness to teams I’ve been in raids with.

Yeah, so not only i have to filter through bad players, i also have to filter through toxic players with their dps tools. Lovely.

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

Pifil.5193:

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

But Anet giving their blessing to the tool… gave those toxic players more tools (the puns) and reasons to grief other players. I mean by the same logic, why not stop moderation of the forums all together – toxic posters will be always there and won’t change, right? Or removing the blocking someone feature – same thing.
I can see how this tool may bring some help to individual player (if they really care) but overall i see no profit from such tool, but rather negative effects like
- toxicity in raids and extra reasons to grief other players
- promotion of selfish gameplay (don’t rez other, ignore mechanics etc. for the sake of highest dps)
- security issues due to use of 3rd party software.

Pifil.5193:

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

A hundred percent true!

A hammer is a hammer – you can either use it to do a task or help someone at doing a task better or you can hit someone over the head with it because you don’t like how they are doing things. In both scenarios its the users doing it not the hammer

Then maybe you need to find different teams to play with. They have brought nothing but support and helpfulness to teams I’ve been in raids with.

Yeah, so not only i have to filter through bad players, i also have to filter through toxic players with their dps tools. Lovely.

You misunderstand. If you have trouble sifting through toxic players, then maybe you need to change your tactics. Join a raiding guild. Make one with a group of friends. Make your own LFG parties. There is no need for you at all to be bothered by other toxic players, you let yourself be bothered and then blame the DPS meter for the toxicity.

Thats not how it works. Toxic people are toxic, DPS meters aren’t toxic. Toxic people will be toxic without the DPS meters. DPS meters are just tools. Cheerful people will be cheerful with or without DPS meters, toxic people will be toxic with or without the DPS meters.

The existence of the DPS meters doesn’t change the toxicity of people in the slightest. This is no different from “have full zerker gear or kick” we dealt with at the start of the game.

Cynz.9437:

Pifil.5193:

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

But Anet giving their blessing to the tool… gave those toxic players more tools (the puns) and reasons to grief other players. I mean by the same logic, why not stop moderation of the forums all together – toxic posters will be always there and won’t change, right? Or removing the blocking someone feature – same thing.

Not really, removing those kind of functions would be more like removing the ability to kick someone from a group, I’d recommend people kick players like that. If someone is causing grief because they perceive issues with other people’s performance then kick em.

OniGiri.9461:

Pifil.5193:

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

A hundred percent true!

A hammer is a hammer – you can either use it to do a task or help someone at doing a task better or you can hit someone over the head with it because you don’t like how they are doing things. In both scenarios its the users doing it not the hammer

Guns kill people
Spoons make people fat
And DPS meters make people toxic

YEEEY new world order

Of course the best way to “weed out” players is to monitor them. Some people just don’t like the idea of being monitored by their peers in a game.

Yes making a group that specifically states “no DPS meter” works, just as well as making a group that states “DPS meters monitored” would also work. As the DPS meter is a 3rd party tool, maybe including the heads up you are using it would be a nice idea.

Also everyone here is talking like DPS meters are only being used in raids. I don’t actually use one, but do they only work there?

Miku.6297:

Of course the best way to “weed out” players is to monitor them. Some people just don’t like the idea of being monitored by their peers in a game.

Yes making a group that specifically states “no DPS meter” works, just as well as making a group that states “DPS meters monitored” would also work. As the DPS meter is a 3rd party tool, maybe including the heads up you are using it would be a nice idea.

Also everyone here is talking like DPS meters are only being used in raids. I don’t actually use one, but do they only work there?

Thats right including “Dps meter used” or something would also work. And everyone joining such a group would be aware and silently agreeing by joining.

DPS meters work everywhere

OniGiri.9461:

Amaimon.7823:

nosleepdemon.1368:

Amaimon.7823:

OniGiri.9461:

Pifil.5193:

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

A hundred percent true!

A hammer is a hammer – you can either use it to do a task or help someone at doing a task better or you can hit someone over the head with it because you don’t like how they are doing things. In both scenarios its the users doing it not the hammer

Guns kill people
Spoons make people fat
And DPS meters make people toxic

YEEEY new world order

Holy hell. What is wrong with people?! This idea of inclusivity for all and screw caring about ruining other player’s experience just so that joe shmoe who can’t be kittened to learn to play can also take part, is pure bull kitten.

Listen folks, whether or not you like it, some activities throughout life will have a god kitten ed bar for entry. If you are so fragile emotionally, or terrible mechanically, that a DPS check will make you cry or get you kicked from a group, then you need to pucker up, accept that you need practice, and get frigging better at the game!

Don’t blame a tool for your lack of emotional grounding for goodness sake! Stop calling people who have standards of play “elitest” or “toxic” or whatever. Thank God DPS metres exist, or total fail trains of the calibre I experience doing just simple fractals (tier 2 chaos and my Rev is half the kittening DPS of the entire group? What the actual Christ??) would totally prevent ANet from ever making content for hardcore players! Yes, they exist. You do not need to play with them if you do not want to.

Also, get off my lawn!

why are you quoting that on two texts who agree with your line of thinking? shouldn’t you be quoting OP?

I was wondering that as well
Even though i wouldn’t phrase it as harsh

Sorry, didn’t mean it to sound harsh, I’ll add a smiley in the original post to lesten the stress

Amaimon.7823:

OniGiri.9461:

Amaimon.7823:

nosleepdemon.1368:

Amaimon.7823:

OniGiri.9461:

Pifil.5193:

Cynz.9437:

@Grogba.6204: it doesn’t matter who had how much alacrity (i don’t use that that monitor garbage so i can’t give you that info), bottom line we killed the bosses without any issues (beside one wipe on Gorse because 5 people got egged – which is CLEARLY not a an alacrity uptime issue) and all that dps meters contributed to was toxicity in the group, LITERARY nothing else.

Blame the player not the DPS meter, the meter is just a tool that player would be the same without it.

A hundred percent true!

A hammer is a hammer – you can either use it to do a task or help someone at doing a task better or you can hit someone over the head with it because you don’t like how they are doing things. In both scenarios its the users doing it not the hammer

Guns kill people
Spoons make people fat
And DPS meters make people toxic

YEEEY new world order

Holy hell. What is wrong with people?! This idea of inclusivity for all and screw caring about ruining other player’s experience just so that joe shmoe who can’t be kittened to learn to play can also take part, is pure bull kitten.

Listen folks, whether or not you like it, some activities throughout life will have a god kitten ed bar for entry. If you are so fragile emotionally, or terrible mechanically, that a DPS check will make you cry or get you kicked from a group, then you need to pucker up, accept that you need practice, and get frigging better at the game!

Don’t blame a tool for your lack of emotional grounding for goodness sake! Stop calling people who have standards of play “elitest” or “toxic” or whatever. Thank God DPS metres exist, or total fail trains of the calibre I experience doing just simple fractals (tier 2 chaos and my Rev is half the kittening DPS of the entire group? What the actual Christ??) would totally prevent ANet from ever making content for hardcore players! Yes, they exist. You do not need to play with them if you do not want to.

Also, get off my lawn!

why are you quoting that on two texts who agree with your line of thinking? shouldn’t you be quoting OP?

I was wondering that as well
Even though i wouldn’t phrase it as harsh

Sorry, didn’t mean it to sound harsh, I’ll add a smiley in the original post to lesten the stress

Much better

Firstly, not everyone uses DPS meter, not every party or squad joined has DPS expectations.

Secondly, it is a matter of choice for the players themselves to join a party or squad that demand high DPS.

Thirdly, if a player can choose to join or not join a party or squad that demands high DPS. The members of that party or squad should have the equivalent freedom to demand high DPS while using certain tools to verify so.

Freedom of choice and action that is not applicable to all is not freedom of choice and action.

Join WoW to see how toxic tools like this can be.

SkyShroud.2865:

Freedom of choice and action that is not applicable to all is not freedom of choice and action.

That’s pretty obvious, though unavoidable when one person use of freedom of choice and action impacts or impedes anothers.

@Offair: There are examples of the types of negative conversations or interactions that can be fueled by DPS meters all over games that have them. At the same time as others have said people find a reason to exclude regaurdless. Go to BNS dungeon lobby the FIRST thing you will see is people excluding others or acting toxic based on conceived stat requirements.

kamedin.4698:

You know if they didn’t allow dps meters they would use AP to exclude people and if they get rid of achievements they would want the API to look people up on that gw2 efficiency, or even something else. So pick your poison, because they will always find something else to use.

Also you have the choice of who to play with, as do these other people. They want to have everyone carry their own weight. If you don’t want to play with these elitist then make your own group or get into a guild group. Just because this is a MMO doesn’t mean you have to play with every single person that enters a group/map/party/guild, otherwise they wouldn’t have a block list so you can ignore people you don’t like.

This guy gets it ^^^^^^^

Miku.6297:

SkyShroud.2865:

Freedom of choice and action that is not applicable to all is not freedom of choice and action.

That’s pretty obvious, though unavoidable when one person use of freedom of choice and action impacts or impedes anothers.

I am not sure what you are trying to imply here while omitting my other sentences, making it seems so much like a straw man argument.

I was just unsure exactly what you meant by the comment. The comment is generally geared towards freedom, but I’m unsure as to how you are trying to relate it to the current discussion.

I wasn’t trying to make it sound like a straw man arguement as much as I was trying to respond to that part of your statement and not have a huge quote box.

kamedin.4698:

You know if they didn’t allow dps meters they would use AP to exclude people and if they get rid of achievements they would want the API to look people up on that gw2 efficiency, or even something else. So pick your poison, because they will always find something else to use.

Also you have the choice of who to play with, as do these other people. They want to have everyone carry their own weight. If you don’t want to play with these elitist then make your own group or get into a guild group. Just because this is a MMO doesn’t mean you have to play with every single person that enters a group/map/party/guild, otherwise they wouldn’t have a block list so you can ignore people you don’t like.

In general, yeah, this is true.

But there’s a rather large section of the community that seems to think “pick-up group” and “high performance” are somehow a good intersection of traits to look for. Hate to break it to the pro players out there, but you’re not breaking speed records with a PUG just because you have a DPS meter. There’s a very entitled attitude that goes along with it, and it’s not healthy for the game.

For the 1% of the 1% who have static groups and push boundaries, sure, DPS meters and sharing that data makes for a great tool. For those who want to be better for themselves, cool beans and rock on and hone those rotations into shining diamonds.

For those who will cry and whine when a fight takes an extra minute (after spending an 15-60 minutes finally putting a dungeon/raid group together), stop inflicting that sourness on random strangers and get a thicker skin. A DPS meter around random strangers does nothing for you.

Rauderi.8706:

But there’s a rather large section of the community that seems to think “pick-up group” and “high performance” are somehow a good intersection of traits to look for. Hate to break it to the pro players out there, but you’re not breaking speed records with a PUG just because you have a DPS meter. There’s a very entitled attitude that goes along with it, and it’s not healthy for the game.

For the 1% of the 1% who have static groups and push boundaries, sure, DPS meters and sharing that data makes for a great tool. For those who want to be better for themselves, cool beans and rock on and hone those rotations into shining diamonds.

For those who will cry and whine when a fight takes an extra minute (after spending an 15-60 minutes finally putting a dungeon/raid group together), stop inflicting that sourness on random strangers and get a thicker skin. A DPS meter around random strangers does nothing for you.

Ensuring a faster clear is not all that PuG’s are using DPs meters for. They’re also using them to identify failure points or potential failure points. Absent the meter, the law firm of Rage, Blame and Kick will still show up. However, absent an accurate meter the group will engage their services based on other criteria that are less accurate.

As to inflicting sourness … It’s unfortunate that people who want efficiency and people who aren’t concerned about it mix, but that’s the nature of the LFG tool. If players who desire to play as they want only grouped with each other and players who want to stick religiously to a meta grouped only with each other, then the PAIW players would not have to deal with any “sourness.”

I’m certainly not in favor of rudeness, but to be frank, there’s rudeness on both sides of the divide. Players who enter groups knowing they don’t meet posted reqs are placing their desire to get into a group with minimal effort over the desires of those who started the group in the first place.

Rauderi.8706:

kamedin.4698:

You know if they didn’t allow dps meters they would use AP to exclude people and if they get rid of achievements they would want the API to look people up on that gw2 efficiency, or even something else. So pick your poison, because they will always find something else to use.

Also you have the choice of who to play with, as do these other people. They want to have everyone carry their own weight. If you don’t want to play with these elitist then make your own group or get into a guild group. Just because this is a MMO doesn’t mean you have to play with every single person that enters a group/map/party/guild, otherwise they wouldn’t have a block list so you can ignore people you don’t like.

In general, yeah, this is true.

But there’s a rather large section of the community that seems to think “pick-up group” and “high performance” are somehow a good intersection of traits to look for. Hate to break it to the pro players out there, but you’re not breaking speed records with a PUG just because you have a DPS meter. There’s a very entitled attitude that goes along with it, and it’s not healthy for the game.

For the 1% of the 1% who have static groups and push boundaries, sure, DPS meters and sharing that data makes for a great tool. For those who want to be better for themselves, cool beans and rock on and hone those rotations into shining diamonds.

For those who will cry and whine when a fight takes an extra minute (after spending an 15-60 minutes finally putting a dungeon/raid group together), stop inflicting that sourness on random strangers and get a thicker skin. A DPS meter around random strangers does nothing for you.

Speak for yourself. I ran a UBRS raid pug in wow for three weeks and the DPS metres were a pretty good indicator of if I was going to invite a player back to the group for the next run. We were a pug, sure, and the content was not exactly taxing, but speed was king and every player wanted a particular item. The rule was, you stated one item you wanted and if no one else had dibs you got invited. If your DPS sucked you were uninvited, as we didn’t have time to just be sitting around.

DPS metres are a great tool, you aren’t going to make someone who is already a jerk less of a jerk by banning them.

lucadiro.4519:

thefinnster.6904:

i think the big thing that alot of you who support dps meters dont get is that to me and many other players this feels like an intrusive method of survailance theres a huge diferance between that and linking how many li you have or being judged on your AP

Its the feeling of being constantly under survailance you join a pug you dont know who is or is not runing a dps meter it makes me feel realy uncomfortable

Hello! I fully support DPS meter! At least the One that I use that display the dps of only the people who is it.
I can’t read your DPS if your are not using it.
It help me a lot to improve my rotation, and my gameplay at all.

So please, answer me, how it can make you feel unconfortable?

Well, I think there is nothing wrong with DPS meters per se.
But i have to agree that i find the notion of DPS meters that show you someone elses dps without their explicit consent problematic.

So today I went fractal with 2 tempests, 1 necro, me as DH and 1 PS
I saw that one of the tempest had the lowest DPS.
Guess what? I did not care about it. He was playing watter attunement all the time healing a lot, probably with support build.
We didn’t speedrun that fractal, but our HP were full for at least 90% of the run.
Our party even enjoyed playing with that solid composition.

Now picture a Gorseval with your party dealing 40k DPS. And then you see your thief with 2k DPS almost losing to magi druid. Without dps meters you would assume he is playing fine because of his rotation which is relatively easy.
What you do then?

TL;DR:
DPS meters do not make people toxic. People are already toxic and they will keep finding excuses to kick you out of raids.

Interestingly enough even if you could block DPS meters, doesn’t mean you won’t be discriminated against for low DPS.

I only run DPS meter while raiding, to see my own dps and let the raid leader see my dps to detect issues etc.

I never run it outside raids. But still sometimes when I pug fractals I end up with a group whose DPS is abysmal. I don’t need a DPS meter to see this. I run T4 daily and I know on average what a great DPS is, what an OK is and what a horrid one is by the speed we kill bosses at.

Now I’m not toxic generally, and I never kick people, I just leave the party myself if I’m not willing to put in the time. However when I’m feeling antsy I can occasionally mention in the party the fact that I think people’s DPS is very low, or joke about asking people if they are wearing Nomads (which occasionally will cause people to link their zerker gear which I find pretty funny) – and yeah that’s a bit toxic I suppose? That case of letting your bad mood affect your actions in game.

This makes me think that now that DPS meters are allowed, any time anyone says in chat ‘low DPS’, people assume they are running a meter. Not necessarily, not necessarily.

Gimli.9461:

This makes me think that now that DPS meters are allowed, any time anyone says in chat ‘low DPS’, people assume they are running a meter. Not necessarily, not necessarily.

Good point.

Offair.2563:

Join WoW to see how toxic tools like this can be.

I’ve played wow from Lich King to Draenor.
I stay by my original point, toxic people will be toxic, happy people will be happy. DPS meters will not affect this. You’re only withholding information for yourself. Not having a DPS meter is like stabbing yourself in the foot, and then complaining when everyone else doesn’t want someone with a knife in their foot to run a race.. maybe I’m being overdramatic, but you get my point. The use of DPS meters was as toxic here as there, 1:1 to as toxic the people themselves were. IT’S A TOOL, NOT A VIAL OF POISON

Amaimon.7823:

IT’S A TOOL, NOT A VIAL OF POISON

Technically a vial of poison is a tool as well. Yet you are construing it to a negative action when infact it’s simply a tool as well. It’s in the use and the viewpoint.

Some tools do have negative connotations, for some people a DPS meter is one of them.

As I’ve said a few times, No the DPS meter by its self is not toxic. The actions of some BASED on the displayed numbers may be.

Offair.2563:

Join WoW to see how toxic tools like this can be.

WoW doesn’t need dps meters to show some of the worst behaviours. That’s an inherent property of the game itself.

If someone wants a personal DPS meter for themselves to have a look at their own output. Go ahead.

But if it gets used to judge others? kitten. OFF. I’ve seen too much toxic & elitist behaviour in other MMOs (from Star Trek Online, to Rift, to Neverwinter) when combat meters on group level got introduced. Those who say a group-based DPS meter isn’t a bad idea in itself are intentionally ignorant. ANet should build an own DPS meter which can standard measure your own DPS and only if others allow their DPS to be measured, also track others, allow people to buy it in the cash shop to cover the development costs and forbid any of the others. DPS meters are often too toxic in general widespread usage for uncontrolled use.

BenjaminMS.6710:

If someone wants a personal DPS meter for themselves to have a look at their own output. Go ahead.

But if it gets used to judge others? kitten. OFF. I’ve seen too much toxic & elitist behaviour in other MMOs (from Star Trek Online, to Rift, to Neverwinter) when combat meters on group level got introduced. Those who say a group-based DPS meter isn’t a bad idea in itself are intentionally ignorant. ANet should build an own DPS meter which can standard measure your own DPS and only if others allow their DPS to be measured, also track others, allow people to buy it in the cash shop to cover the development costs and forbid any of the others. DPS meters are often too toxic in general widespread usage for uncontrolled use.

DPS meters are not toxic. Players are toxic.

Toxic players will be toxic with or without DPS meters.

Without DPS meters people will use other things to exclude and kick people. Including things that have a lot less to do with a player’s skill in specific raids than their DPS. Like their AP or their LI (since LI can be earned in any raid, LI is not a good indicator at experience at a specific raid). Or worse: their bias towards a particular class – Johnny playing Toxic’s hated class would likely be kicked if there were any issues, even if Johnny wasn’t the one causing the problem.

fixing forum bug

Miku.6297:

I was just unsure exactly what you meant by the comment. The comment is generally geared towards freedom, but I’m unsure as to how you are trying to relate it to the current discussion.

I wasn’t trying to make it sound like a straw man arguement as much as I was trying to respond to that part of your statement and not have a huge quote box.

It is quite easy to relate, there is only one point that the entire thread is arguing about and that is

• I don’t want people to see my DPS, I don’t want to be kicked because of it

Then basing on that point, they derive to

• People are elitist because they check DPS

However, fundamentally is still a matter of choices and actions. No one force anyone to use the meter, no one force anyone to join a party or squad that require you to use the meter, no one force anyone to agree to be subject to no-spoken expectations of a party or squad that use the meter. The tool itself has no fault or does it gives unfair advantages. If anyone chose to join a party or squad that uses a meter then be ready to handle the possible negative consequences.

Actually the OP clearly stated that he was a vet player, and does good dps numbers when playing. Hey simply doesn’t like the feeling of being monitored by other players when he plays. So point A is incorrect.

Point b. isn’t really an issue to me. Most people don’t actually mind others wanting to play their best, or wanting to play with like minded players. It’s when they act rudely based on that desire that people dislike.

As a mater of choices and actions, while it’s true no one is forcing anyone to use a meter or not. Someone using a meter may be forcing that meter onto others wishing to not use it.

Seera.5916:

BenjaminMS.6710:

If someone wants a personal DPS meter for themselves to have a look at their own output. Go ahead.

But if it gets used to judge others? kitten. OFF. I’ve seen too much toxic & elitist behaviour in other MMOs (from Star Trek Online, to Rift, to Neverwinter) when combat meters on group level got introduced. Those who say a group-based DPS meter isn’t a bad idea in itself are intentionally ignorant. ANet should build an own DPS meter which can standard measure your own DPS and only if others allow their DPS to be measured, also track others, allow people to buy it in the cash shop to cover the development costs and forbid any of the others. DPS meters are often too toxic in general widespread usage for uncontrolled use.

DPS meters are not toxic. Players are toxic.

Toxic players will be toxic with or without DPS meters.

Without DPS meters people will use other things to exclude and kick people. Including things that have a lot less to do with a player’s skill in specific raids than their DPS. Like their AP or their LI (since LI can be earned in any raid, LI is not a good indicator at experience at a specific raid). Or worse: their bias towards a particular class – Johnny playing Toxic’s hated class would likely be kicked if there were any issues, even if Johnny wasn’t the one causing the problem.

I’ll bite here.

The amount of naturally toxic players is, from my own observations, lower then the amount of toxic players when the DPS meter gets introduced. As I said, I don’t mind if people want to check their own DPS. Go right ahead. But the amount of people who suddenly do become toxic when they have a tool like the DPS meter which they can measure others with without their consent, or another ‘parse’? Suddenly increases every kittening time.

Hell, the game Star Trek Online (which has plenty of other flaws to start with though) basically died because the developers were idiotic enough to listen almost solely to the DPS crowd. I don’t mind if people want to have fun in their own ways – it’s still a game. But the second you knowingly and intentionally start spoiling the fun for others for me all bets are off. And with the introduction of group-wide, non-permission requested DPS meters? That so far always attracted the worst of the worst behaviour. Raiders before this introduction already had a bad name in this game as elitist pricks when it comes to PUGs and other type of partially-/non-formatted groups. Now add the group-wide DPS meter to that mix, and you are on a highway to hell.

Also as others noted – using a DPS meter, due to all the different possible class formats, is just stupid to measure effectiveness. And I doubt people are willing to get into the cookiecutter format if they dislike it just to join a raid.

On that note, things like this lead to enforced cookiecutter behaviour. If people choose consciously for an cookiecutter format and stick with it, but don’t like how it plays, it’s just self-inflicted poisoning. But at no point should you be forced to use a cookiecutter build just to take part in one of the parts of the game. It screws with all the fundamentals of gaming, and is assholish to the max. Besides that, enforced cookiecutter formatting always leads to disaster for the game it is impacted upon.

Sure, I can probably pick a few people in this topic who I could probably trust with reasonable use of the meter without screwing over others. But guess what? Most of the people you can’t.

Also – for those who like raiding – do you want to see ANet continue developing raids? Because if wrong behaviour gets out of hand like it has in other games after the introduction of uncontrolled DPS meters, you can expect the amount of new raids to drop even further. At some point it will just become uninteresting for a developer to develop for a group which probably will be relative vocal, but too small partially due to its own doing if there’s no check and balance against use of tools like those. I can guarantee you that much.

Edit: Typo. V, not f