Guild Wars 2

foofad.5162:

Your example doesn’t hold, since you listed ACTUAL class mechanics, and Guardian’s ACTUAL class mechanic is Virtues.

Guardian
The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanics#Mechanic_bar

Everything he listed is something found on the F1-4 bar. Virtues are also found there. Boons aren’t a class mechanic. Everyone can give boons in one form or another. I don’t know why I have to explain this.

foofad.5162:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanics#Mechanic_bar

Everything he listed is something found on the F1-4 bar. Virtues are also found there. Boons aren’t a class mechanic. Everyone can give boons in one form or another. I don’t know why I have to explain this.

Virtues give boons with five points traited into the virtues line.

Kaleban.9834:

What if all classes did more damage to Warriors depending on their Adrenaline level?

Similar skills existed in gw1…

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ancestor%27s_Visage

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soothing_Images

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Signet_of_Rage

As I am reading this "“Deal an extra 9% damage to any character with an animal companion.” and imagine the response from the rangers; in fact I am a Ranger.

Suddenly I thought arenanet was shifting away from supporting and helping the elitist classes in making them more OP than they already are, yet somehow
advocating for the ‘lesser class’ and helping in support for the ranger class in April’s patch than all of sudden this?

Total Double-Edge Sword, “Back-Stabbed” and Betrayal by this company as a ranger class.

Why not name this “trait” “Kill lesser class; The Ranger on site”

So this whole “helping the Ranger class especially their pet to be survivable more”
was all Deceptions and Lies.

As ranger class, we’re not only mark for target by the *elitist thief class but for
everyone as it seem.

Well Done! Arenanet.

As the saying says, “what lays in secret in the dark will come out in the sun”

I can see now.

It is not aimed at guardians in general. New boon hate is aimed at bunker elementalists, HGH engies, and boon stacking in general. Boons are still strong, but they will have solid counters now.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Generally, this new boon hate trait is only meaningful when you have a lot of boons up. Which, well, yes, it’s true, guardians do usually have many boons up. However, protect can pretty much “nullify” the purpose of anti-boon warriors, and guardians still have aegis/ blocks against big attacks.

What guardians should be truly aware, however, is the warrior’s new signet of might. 3 unblockable attacks is a big deal, and guardians DO rely a lot on blocking. :P

True that. Boon Hate is a trait, not all warriors will have them. The new Signet of Might on the other hand is now very powerful, 180 passive power and when popped gives you 3 unblockable attack means warrior can now probably bypass block and kick/slam/rush guardians to the ground through Aegis…

ParnAshwind.4823:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Generally, this new boon hate trait is only meaningful when you have a lot of boons up. Which, well, yes, it’s true, guardians do usually have many boons up. However, protect can pretty much “nullify” the purpose of anti-boon warriors, and guardians still have aegis/ blocks against big attacks.

What guardians should be truly aware, however, is the warrior’s new signet of might. 3 unblockable attacks is a big deal, and guardians DO rely a lot on blocking. :P

True that. Boon Hate is a trait, not all warriors will have them. The new Signet of Might on the other hand is now very powerful, 180 passive power and when popped gives you 3 unblockable attack means warrior can now probably bypass block and kick/slam/rush guardians to the ground through Aegis…

I agree, it makes Signet of Might way more attractive than it is at the moment, at least for PvP/control situations (barring stability.) “Boon hate” holds no personal interest to me, but Signet of Might might. :P

Notably absent from this thread is the broader consequence of boon hate.

Not all Guardians are bunkers, yet all Guardians give themselves and everyone around them boons left, right and centre with very little control over it. Ignoring the fact that every class can give themselves some form of boon at some point, this means that a boon hate Warrior is doing increased damage to everyone in the vicinity of a Guardian. For some classes, this is the difference between getting two-shot and getting one-shot. Who the hell will want to be near a Guardian when that is the consequence of having them around? Amusingly enough, Warriors have more to lose from this than any other class since they are the ones that are usually standing in the Guardians’ symbols most of the time.

Almost all builds have a trade off to get the abilities the player wants. If you want the maximum damage you have to give up surviveability. Bunkers are no exception, and in order for them to have high surviveability they have to give up damage. No class should ever be able to effectively defeat every single build of every class. So a Warrior can’t beat a bunker Guardian in the same three seconds it takes them to kill a Ranger, so what? A Ranger cannot ever do even close to the damage of a Warrior even when given three times the time. This is the antithesis of balance, and yet boon hate is a (BIG) step in exactly that direction.

This is the wrong solution to the wrong problem with the wrong consequences.

Sokar Rostau.7316:

Notably absent from this thread is the broader consequence of boon hate.

Not all Guardians are bunkers, yet all Guardians give themselves and everyone around them boons left, right and centre with very little control over it. Ignoring the fact that every class can give themselves some form of boon at some point, this means that a boon hate Warrior is doing increased damage to everyone in the vicinity of a Guardian. For some classes, this is the difference between getting two-shot and getting one-shot. Who the hell will want to be near a Guardian when that is the consequence of having them around? Amusingly enough, Warriors have more to lose from this than any other class since they are the ones that are usually standing in the Guardians’ symbols most of the time.

Almost all builds have a trade off to get the abilities the player wants. If you want the maximum damage you have to give up surviveability. Bunkers are no exception, and in order for them to have high surviveability they have to give up damage. No class should ever be able to effectively defeat every single build of every class. So a Warrior can’t beat a bunker Guardian in the same three seconds it takes them to kill a Ranger, so what? A Ranger cannot ever do even close to the damage of a Warrior even when given three times the time. This is the antithesis of balance, and yet boon hate is a (BIG) step in exactly that direction.

This is the wrong solution to the wrong problem with the wrong consequences.

Or how about they just re arrange the warriors traitlines so the passives they already have and there are many that increase there damage are more accessable to them earlyer on in the traitlines so they can have more robust builds, without having to make the sacrifices they do already. I bet that would achive the same result without all of the crying going on. Problem is that is exactly what they wanted to do but they got a lot of flak for it internally because it would make warrior too OP in PVE more OP than they already are.

I see no mention in the wiki about “Boon Hate”.

What are you people on about?

Kichwas.7152:

I see no mention in the wiki about “Boon Hate”.

What are you people on about?

Its new and will add much needed depth to builds and this game as a hole.

NNecros kinda already do it (aand will be getting two Unblockable attacks) warriors will be getting what people are descusing here.

AAnd thief will be able to steal boons to use on them self

stale.9785:

Ensign.2189:

It’s not like people are suddenly going to start running Warriors because there’s a new trait giving them a bit more damage against bunkers. As if that was their problem.

No, they’re getting bonus damage against boons (which any guardian will have at least 2 up all the time, they’re standard.) and 3 unblockable attacks. Since one notoriously powerful attack has been known to crit for 24k, this is a problem. Making it unblockable, and adding damage for the boons that should be protecting us? It’s beyond a joke.

Then dodge?

Kaizer.7135:

stale.9785:

Ensign.2189:

It’s not like people are suddenly going to start running Warriors because there’s a new trait giving them a bit more damage against bunkers. As if that was their problem.

No, they’re getting bonus damage against boons (which any guardian will have at least 2 up all the time, they’re standard.) and 3 unblockable attacks. Since one notoriously powerful attack has been known to crit for 24k, this is a problem. Making it unblockable, and adding damage for the boons that should be protecting us? It’s beyond a joke.

Then dodge?

II know right now they may actually need to move like the rest of us.

Boon hate is meant to be unfair to guardians, and to eles. It was not designed as a warrior buff, but as a bunker nerf. It was designed without the warrior in mind, and then slapped on them since they are particularly weak in PvP situations.

The thief’s ability to steal boons is another direct nerf to bunker builds. Sorry, but you’re OP godmode is now slowly being brought down a notch. Expect more of it in the future and do what you have been telling warriors to do for so long now (namely learn to play). If Anet keeps this up, we may well eventually see who really is skilled at the game, and who just relies on OP builds to win

I don’t mind them nerfing overpowering builds, but my concern with “boon hate” as applied to Warriors is that they are giving them just one option to be viable at PvP. I don’t think this improves the Warrior that much at all vs what you have to sacrifice to get it, quite honestly, unless you build happens to employ 30 Discipline already. Otherwise, the Warrior will lose either potential non-conditional damage or defense as a trade-off just to pull-off attacking boon bunkers… seems a bit weird, but I guess we should let it play out in the community first.

(Of course, someone could argue that there will be many different PvP builds centered around 30 discipline, but we shall see.)

Talking about Discipline, I still don’t understand the 3% Burst total “bonus” from the Discipline line. Now that could use some nice reworking.

Except it isn’t a direct nerf to bunker builds, it is a direct nerf to all Guardian builds, everybody in the vicinity of the Guardian and every single build that ever uses boons.

Stripping boons is one thing. Corrupting boons is another. But this is something completely different. This is a direct damage buff, potentially almost on the level of a full stack of Vulnerability, to the class that already does the most damage.

But hey, maybe it’s ANet’s intention that Guardians only ever use Hammers and never use Save Yourselves, because that is the personal counter a Guardian has against boon hate – but the other classes impacted have no such “luxury” of being locked into using one weapon and never using a utility… they’re just going to die faster than they already do when a Guardian happens to be around.

As far as “L2P” goes, maybe if Warriors wore something other than Berserkers and used something other than Hundred Blades against Guardians that have Retaliation running, they wouldn’t be telling you to L2P. Maybe if you understood just how much more damage you do than any other class you would understand why bunkers exist and why you have no right to be complaining about them.

Boom hate is just plain stupid.

You should never be penalised for buffing yourself or your party.

Imagine if for every condition you healedthe enemy…….its backwards, and a really bad knee jerk reaction to an issue that avoids the actual problem with the system.

Decisions like this make me to question whether i keep playing. For now its yes, but a few more like this and that may change.

If guardians are being hit with this, they need a massive increase to health, dmg and mobility. Because right now our base levels of all 3are very low, and we need boons to compensate.
Better yet, just make just all warriors……me be warrior, me smash one button for pwn everything in sight….rrrrraaaaghhhhh…….no.

havoc.6814:

Boon hate is meant to be unfair to guardians, and to eles. It was not designed as a warrior buff, but as a bunker nerf. It was designed without the warrior in mind, and then slapped on them since they are particularly weak in PvP situations.

The thief’s ability to steal boons is another direct nerf to bunker builds. Sorry, but you’re OP godmode is now slowly being brought down a notch. Expect more of it in the future and do what you have been telling warriors to do for so long now (namely learn to play). If Anet keeps this up, we may well eventually see who really is skilled at the game, and who just relies on OP builds to win

Quoted for truth.

I didn’t read all the replies, but isn’t the warriors more damage to boons a grandmaster in their final/semi-useless trait line? That’s sacrificing some DPS to go down that line, so I think it just balances them out to do the same damage as before to people with boons and less damage to those without.

Henge.3907:

I didn’t read all the replies, but isn’t the warriors more damage to boons a grandmaster in their final/semi-useless trait line? That’s sacrificing some DPS to go down that line, so I think it just balances them out to do the same damage as before to people with boons and less damage to those without.

basicly this, it add a bunker buster build more or less. its true you will be more effective vs bunkers but you will also be weeker to every one ells. people wanted roles now there getting tthem

Quite honestly a solid counter to a boon should be boon removal. They should have worked on making those skills better/adding more of them.

Folk.2093:

Quite honestly a solid counter to a boon should be boon removal. They should have worked on making those skills better/adding more of them.

well we still dont know everything, this was just a little of the info for the upcomeing stuff not all of it

I would give up boon hate in a second for a bit more sustain. Much more excited for dogged march.

Folk.2093:

Quite honestly a solid counter to a boon should be boon removal. They should have worked on making those skills better/adding more of them.

They did…
Thiefs now can steal boons (IF they use S/D, and want to waste the initiative for it)
Necros get better boon corruption (no block with certain utilities)
Warriors get a GM trait on a underused line that gives them more dmg per boon.

Mesmers still have good boom stripping (sword aa and fields) and some stealing…

Some other classes, including guards, have some minor boom removals also. but, just like the sigils, they have long CD and are not very useful against the boom-spamming bunkers of the META atm.

Boom hate was already on the game in some sort, just not a viable (or well know/used) role. Maybe there will be some changes to that.

Guards will have to take care on how they spam thair boons. Dont just spam shouts all over and run around like nothing else is important.
Eles boons have really short duration and rellies more on constant application.

Protection is still great and only a really stupid person wouldn’t want it with a side of regeneration.

This adds more depth to the game and group mechanics…
Instead of running around with 4 other ele/guards spamming boons all over, bring a necro to corrupt stolen boons or send the conditions back to enemies…

Just be smart…

then what about Aura Elementalists? -,- light armor, lowest HP pool, stockpiled with boons = meet Warrior, signet of might, boon hate, bye bye Ele

Grevender.9235:

then what about Aura Elementalists? -,- light armor, lowest HP pool, stockpiled with boons = meet Warrior, signet of might, boon hate, bye bye Ele

What about any other professions? Warriors still have the same weaknesses as before. Try kiting, and movement conditions and dodging. If you know how to beat a warrior now you can still beat a warrior later. If you cant beat a warrior now I don’t see what the complaint is since nothing will change.

Edit:

There are plenty of eles out there that my warrior has take a dirt nap too in WvW. I don’t forsee a little extra damage going to change that because the issue with warrior vs ele has never been about weather or not the warrior has enough damage, they always have had. The issue is getting kited, and shut down.

While I believe boon hate is a silly concept to begin with, it will hardly affect my play style and i’ll still do fine against other classes.

Boon hate is not a silly concept. It worked perfectly fine in GW1, and it needed a boost in GW2.

People are saying they would prefer boon stripping over the “more damage per boon” trait. Why? It seems, to me, that boon stripping is stronger than +3% damage per boon. Because the new warrior’s trait won’t remove boons. It won’t remove aegis, it won’t remove protection, it won’t remove vigor, it won’t remove stability, etc. Boon professions will still be able to dodge more often, to protect against stuns (and thus against warrior’s bursts), and generally regenerate their health. Each boon is, generally, far more worth than a 3% damage reduction. So, ultimately, this new tait will give warriors a higher chance to burst down a boon profession, but said profession can still counter the warrior by… using the effects of the boons.

Also, giving everyone and their mommas boon removal would be annoying. It would be annoying, because each time you would add a boon to yourself, chances are, you would lose it from a random soccer mom. It’s good that devs are adding more ways to fight against boons, that do not solely rely on stripping their effects. It adds more diversity to the combat system. With this new trait, a boon profession is going to be boon-countered while still reaping the benefit from boons. It’s going to lead to different kinds of duels than boon stripping (which is also getting buffed).

If you go to the warriors forums, most warrior players agree we really didn’t need ‘more damage’. What we are asking for is a way to be able to resist being totally shut down. There are a lot of ways to shutdown any warrior, but there aren’t any way for us to really counter being totally shutdown.

Kaizer.7135:

stale.9785:

Ensign.2189:

It’s not like people are suddenly going to start running Warriors because there’s a new trait giving them a bit more damage against bunkers. As if that was their problem.

No, they’re getting bonus damage against boons (which any guardian will have at least 2 up all the time, they’re standard.) and 3 unblockable attacks. Since one notoriously powerful attack has been known to crit for 24k, this is a problem. Making it unblockable, and adding damage for the boons that should be protecting us? It’s beyond a joke.

Then dodge?

the only class that can trait for never ending dodge is warriors. As a guardian, my dodge runs out fast, so I have to depend more heavily on my auto-block and reset virtues. I hate when warriors in parties in dungeons just tell everyone to dodge. It’s like we can dodge twice. Then we have to wait. Sorry for not having never ending dodges. Most of them don’t get that though.

Warlord.9074:

Grevender.9235:

then what about Aura Elementalists? -,- light armor, lowest HP pool, stockpiled with boons = meet Warrior, signet of might, boon hate, bye bye Ele

What about any other professions? Warriors still have the same weaknesses as before. Try kiting, and movement conditions and dodging. If you know how to beat a warrior now you can still beat a warrior later. If you cant beat a warrior now I don’t see what the complaint is since nothing will change.

Edit:

There are plenty of eles out there that my warrior has take a dirt nap too in WvW. I don’t forsee a little extra damage going to change that because the issue with warrior vs ele has never been about weather or not the warrior has enough damage, they always have had. The issue is getting kited, and shut down.

you have plenty of gap closing abilities and elementalists are being made less speedy in this patch.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Boon hate is not a silly concept. It worked perfectly fine in GW1, and it needed a boost in GW2.

People are saying they would prefer boon stripping over the “more damage per boon” trait. Why? It seems, to me, that boon stripping is stronger than +3% damage per boon. Because the new warrior’s trait won’t remove boons. It won’t remove aegis, it won’t remove protection, it won’t remove vigor, it won’t remove stability, etc. Boon professions will still be able to dodge more often, to protect against stuns (and thus against warrior’s bursts), and generally regenerate their health. Each boon is, generally, far more worth than a 3% damage reduction. So, ultimately, this new tait will give warriors a higher chance to burst down a boon profession, but said profession can still counter the warrior by… using the effects of the boons.

Also, giving everyone and their mommas boon removal would be annoying. It would be annoying, because each time you would add a boon to yourself, chances are, you would lose it from a random soccer mom. It’s good that devs are adding more ways to fight against boons, that do not solely rely on stripping their effects. It adds more diversity to the combat system. With this new trait, a boon profession is going to be boon-countered while still reaping the benefit from boons. It’s going to lead to different kinds of duels than boon stripping (which is also getting buffed).

I could live with boon stripping far more easily than with outright damage based upon boons.

Worst case, assume someone’s stripped all my boons after I’ve popped every shout, and all my virtues. OK, so suddenly I’m standing there with 15k hp, being thumped, and best case I can restore my protection after 28-45 seconds. It’s time to die, or run away. Cost of doing business.

Having anything that targets my core mechanic, on the otherhand, is wrong. Just by existing, without using any skills, a guardian generates two boons every 40 seconds. As soon as we start using their weapons, we’re tossing boons onto the group, nothing we can do to control that – it’s inherent in our weapon design.

Adding something I’ve got to watch for because it makes me vulnerable? Not a big deal. Adding something that actively punishes me just for playing a class? That sucks.

Let’s say thieves got something that allowed them to do 3% more damage to anyone with an adrenal meter. Every warrior on the boards would be screaming their heads off about how unfair it is.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Boon hate is not a silly concept. It worked perfectly fine in GW1, and it needed a boost in GW2.

People are saying they would prefer boon stripping over the “more damage per boon” trait. Why? It seems, to me, that boon stripping is stronger than +3% damage per boon. Because the new warrior’s trait won’t remove boons. It won’t remove aegis, it won’t remove protection, it won’t remove vigor, it won’t remove stability, etc. Boon professions will still be able to dodge more often, to protect against stuns (and thus against warrior’s bursts), and generally regenerate their health. Each boon is, generally, far more worth than a 3% damage reduction. So, ultimately, this new tait will give warriors a higher chance to burst down a boon profession, but said profession can still counter the warrior by… using the effects of the boons.

Also, giving everyone and their mommas boon removal would be annoying. It would be annoying, because each time you would add a boon to yourself, chances are, you would lose it from a random soccer mom. It’s good that devs are adding more ways to fight against boons, that do not solely rely on stripping their effects. It adds more diversity to the combat system. With this new trait, a boon profession is going to be boon-countered while still reaping the benefit from boons. It’s going to lead to different kinds of duels than boon stripping (which is also getting buffed).

It’s silly to me because I feel boons are suppose to be helpful to me instead damaging. If I have 8 boons up, it pretty much neglect over half my protection boon. I much prefer if they gave warriors boon stealing/removal skills or a small % to steal/remove a boon in their trait line since this at least effectively either forces them to use one ult to counter my boons or that I can at least counter his boon steal/remove chance by kiting or kb or dodging him. having said that, like I said, this will barely affect my gameplay, I don’t even use Save yourselves when i’m in PvP since there are much better ult to use in pvp. So I guess in a way, i’m glad for this change since it wouldn’t affect us as negatively as the changes I have proposed as an example.

stale.9785:

randomfightfan.4091:

ever think that maybe there’s a reason why boon hate was put in place… guardians and eles were doing far too much with all the boons they could get and now we have something (something minor) to counter that. As it is, guardian is the only class that can barely move and never attack yet still manage to kill their opponent. Things like perma protection/retal along with spammable block was too strong that it needed something designed to break it. Instead of complaining that the most op class for tanking got a slight nerf, you should be thanking anet for not nerfing your class to the level of other classes like rangers, necros, thieves, and warriors. Seriously, none of your complaints have any solid merit.

tldr ~ Both guardian and ele needed to be nerfed b/c they were FAR too strong as bunkers and dealing far too much damage without even having to try (guardian more so). Boon hate is warranted

See, i was with you till you included warrior with the rangers. warriors do double the damage of other classes. rangers are stupidly broken, to the point they’re unwelcome in most settings.

I still hate the idea of boon hate – but purely because it attacks my classes CORE MECHANIC. To put it in warrior terms, say I got to do extra damage based upon you having weapon skills. Unfair, right? Because you can’t avoid having weapon skills.

That’s where guardians are sitting right now – being punished for something we can’t opt not to use.

Almost everything guardians do grants boons – including our core mechanic of virtues – they auto-spawn boons, and there’s nothing at all we can do to prevent it.

I don’t know what you mean by rangers (they are obscenely strong in pvp but not wvw or pve if that’s what you’re getting at) but I felt I had to include warriors b/c they have no access to protection and their best access to retaliation is pretty junk. Get it AFTER you get crit… against a condition necro or something, you won’t be getting too many ret procs… and even then, not like it’ll be doing much, if anything. Compare that to a guardian where they can get near perma protection and retaliation and almost every other boon with hardly even trying. This patch will make it where average warriors are actually competitive in average pvp situations instead of the warrior needing to be godlike in order to beat average players (personal opinion ofc).

Remember though, warriors still don’t have a way to take away that retaliation or protection you’re always carrying. You’ll still be taking 33% less damage even if you are eating say 15% more from that certain traited warrior.

GW1 had much more boonhate and that was fine, also as said, 30 points in discipline.

Mechanics that target playstyles is not bad design, it’s counterplay. Just like equipping a sigil of nullification if you are fighting boon users.

emikochan.8504:

GW1 had much more boonhate and that was fine, also as said, 30 points in discipline.

Mechanics that target playstyles is not bad design, it’s counterplay. Just like equipping a sigil of nullification if you are fighting boon users.

gw1 had a extreme variety of builds, gw2 doesn’t. In gw1 monks weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they weren’t forced to do any of that. In gw2, guardians are basically forced to be boon oriented.

Big difference.

i dont mind if they erase boonhate,..
the trait wont be as good as it is hyped anyway..
instead, give something like,..
50% chance to gain 5 sec protection each time i hit targets with equal or more than 2 boons..

What I dont like about boon hate isnt boon hate on its own. It’s that some classes are forced into proccing boons in order to reach the higher traits in a line, even if they arent interested in the minor mandatory boon traits. Like Elixir B proc at 75% health, at 75% health the enginner suddenly takes 9% more damage from a boon hate warrior, when the trait should really help the engi instead.

This would be a great time for Anet to rework how minor traits work and gives us something like 3 options per minor trait tier. So 9 in total, but they should be unique to the tier, so a t1 minor trait cant go in t2 or t3 and so on. This way we would get options that are free of boons if we want.

Introducing boon hate with mandatory forced boons in the minor traits is not nice.

It’s silly to me because I feel boons are suppose to be helpful to me instead damaging.

And boons will remain to be helpful. Boon stealing, boon corruption and more damage per boon effects already exist in GW2. Heh, even when we take a look at other mechanics, we can see that using skills is damaging because of confusion, attacking somebody is damaging because of retaliation, and using projectiles is damaging because of reflection. But all those situations are occasional, sometimes timed, and do not affect the entire combat system.

If I have 8 boons up, it pretty much neglect over half my protection boon.

Wait, is this a problem at all? You’re pretty much stating that this boon hate mechanic will be pretty useless at that situation, if the only thing it can do is neglect only a portion of a single boon out of eight. Even a single boon stripping skill would be stronger than that.

In the end, that boon hate trait is not much different to protection than the existence of poison is against healing.

Aza.2105:

gw1 had a extreme variety of builds, gw2 doesn’t. In gw1 monks weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they weren’t forced to do any of that. In gw2, guardians are basically forced to be boon oriented.

Big difference.

In GW1, dervishes and elementalists weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they were forced into it too. And it worked perfectly fine. In GW2, guardians are the dervishes ( and paragons/ “monks”) of the game. And in GW2, boons are extremely strong.

I can understand that people who are used to overpowered professions, are afraid that there will exist more means to counter them. But that’s how the game should have been since the beginning. You have to understand that playing with an overpowered, hard to counter profession was not meant to be the norm, but is a side effect to lack of balancing in that department.

randomfightfan.4091:

I don’t know what you mean by rangers (they are obscenely strong in pvp but not wvw or pve if that’s what you’re getting at) but I felt I had to include warriors b/c they have no access to protection and their best access to retaliation is pretty junk. Get it AFTER you get crit… against a condition necro or something, you won’t be getting too many ret procs… and even then, not like it’ll be doing much, if anything. Compare that to a guardian where they can get near perma protection and retaliation and almost every other boon with hardly even trying. This patch will make it where average warriors are actually competitive in average pvp situations instead of the warrior needing to be godlike in order to beat average players (personal opinion ofc).

Remember though, warriors still don’t have a way to take away that retaliation or protection you’re always carrying. You’ll still be taking 33% less damage even if you are eating say 15% more from that certain traited warrior.

Take a ranger into wvw, or a dungeon, and tell me they’re good. All this focus on pvp, when it’s such a small chunk of the game.

Rangers, by default, lose 40% of their dps, because a) it can’t be controlled. b) it dies, regularly. In any venue aside from 5 man pvp, rangers are the kitten class.

For the rest? Seriously, roll the other classes. Near perma regen and protection? Regen I’ll grant you, because our class mechanic grants it. Protection? Well, there’s save yourselves! there’s hold the line!, and, um… oh, yeah, one part of the hammer cycle, and a shield skill. Near perma… right.

All the focus on how OP the boons are, when they’re in the game to put us on a semi-level playing field with the other soldier class – the one that has a higher base HP than we can get with armour and traiting. We have to use boons responsively, and now we’re going to be punished for same. (Someone who spams their boons mindlessly isn’t a challenge – they’re dead.)

Think somehow people assume guardians trait into bunker spec to troll people. This isn’t true. Guardians trait as bunker because it’s the only way we stay competitive.

Were I to try to roll a DPS based, zerker style guardian, I’d have decent damage, but I’d have 10k hp. Also, I’d have virtually no escape function, and, well, I’d spend my life facedown on the dirt.

Everyone in the thread who’s complaining about how easy it is to shut down a warrior? Don’t roll pure ‘zerker stuff, and it’s less of a problem. Snares, blind, and… ? Oh, yeah, that’s it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

It’s silly to me because I feel boons are suppose to be helpful to me instead damaging.

And boons will remain to be helpful. Boon stealing, boon corruption and more damage per boon effects already exist in GW2. Heh, even when we take a look at other mechanics, we can see that using skills is damaging because of confusion, attacking somebody is damaging because of retaliation, and using projectiles is damaging because of reflection. But all those situations are occasional, sometimes timed, and do not affect the entire combat system.

If I have 8 boons up, it pretty much neglect over half my protection boon.

Wait, is this a problem at all? You’re pretty much stating that this boon hate mechanic will be pretty useless at that situation, if the only thing it can do is neglect only a portion of a single boon out of eight. Even a single boon stripping skill would be stronger than that.

In the end, that boon hate trait is not much different to protection than the existence of poison is against healing.

Aza.2105:

gw1 had a extreme variety of builds, gw2 doesn’t. In gw1 monks weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they weren’t forced to do any of that. In gw2, guardians are basically forced to be boon oriented.

Big difference.

In GW1, dervishes and elementalists weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they were forced into it too. And it worked perfectly fine. In GW2, guardians are the dervishes ( and paragons/ “monks”) of the game. And in GW2, boons are extremely strong.

I can understand that people who are used to overpowered professions, are afraid that there will exist more means to counter them. But that’s how the game should have been since the beginning. You have to understand that playing with an overpowered, hard to counter profession was not meant to be the norm, but is a side effect to lack of balancing in that department.

I don’t have a problem with it, I just think the concept is silly because of the basis that boons are suppose to be helpful. i.e. no disadvantage at all.

Say goodbye to being able to move alone as a group support boon / cc guardian. Seeing all those thieves who sucked, though could live because they had perma stealth / without risk stealth – are now coming back.

Gee gee.

DiogoSilva.7089:

In GW1, dervishes and elementalists weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they were forced into it too. And it worked perfectly fine. In GW2, guardians are the dervishes ( and paragons/ “monks”) of the game. And in GW2, boons are extremely strong.

I can understand that people who are used to overpowered professions, are afraid that there will exist more means to counter them. But that’s how the game should have been since the beginning. You have to understand that playing with an overpowered, hard to counter profession was not meant to be the norm, but is a side effect to lack of balancing in that department.

No, you had the CHOICE to run enchantments. Skills weren’t placed on your bar that FORCED you to do it! Its true that enchantments were probably a optimal choice for derv and ele but they weren’t forced on your hotbar. You choose how to build your character! Again, big difference.

80% of guardians skills provide boons! Perhaps even more. There are three weapons that do not provide boons: Scepter (broken), 1h sword (broken) and torch (not worth using). Then three out of four signets do not provide boons.

Make a guardian build that doesn’t use boons in some way, you can’t!

Aza.2105:

DiogoSilva.7089:

In GW1, dervishes and elementalists weren’t told they had to be enchantment oriented, they were forced into it too. And it worked perfectly fine. In GW2, guardians are the dervishes ( and paragons/ “monks”) of the game. And in GW2, boons are extremely strong.

I can understand that people who are used to overpowered professions, are afraid that there will exist more means to counter them. But that’s how the game should have been since the beginning. You have to understand that playing with an overpowered, hard to counter profession was not meant to be the norm, but is a side effect to lack of balancing in that department.

No, you had the CHOICE to run enchantments. Skills weren’t placed on your bar that FORCED you to do it! Its true that enchantments were probably a optimal choice for derv and ele but they weren’t forced on your hotbar. You choose how to build your character! Again, big difference.

80% of guardians skills provide boons! Perhaps even more. There are three weapons that do not provide boons: Scepter (broken), 1h sword (broken) and torch (not worth using). Then three out of four signets do not provide boons.

Make a guardian build that doesn’t use boons in some way, you can’t!

This is why I compared it to punishing rangers for having pets (as though the pet wasn’t punishment enough…) We have 0 choice but to run boons.

Not to mention that all Guardians have pretty much perma-boons from their Virtues. Unless those don’t count. It’s guaranteed extra damage against Guardians. I will definitely have to watch my back since I run a shout/boon guardian with Altruism set.

stale.9785:

Ele’s catch it nearly as hard, with the attunement dancing, but for guardian’s, it’s the classes core mechanic, and what makes up for us having 8000HP less than the other soldier class…

Not nearly as hard. Just as hard.

Of all the potential builds (including the subpar ones), there’s only 1 that doesn’t create boons and that one uses a traitline that increases boon duration.

-Cantrips traits generate boons.
-Glyph traits generate boons.
-Aura traits generate boons.
-Signet traits generate auras, that generate boons.
-Arcane skills generate conditions…but the traitline increases boon duration.

And the worst part is that D/D bunker, the build that CAUSES the boon hate suffers THE LEAST from it because it still has defensive skills to rely on. The staff on the other hand, had to use boons instead…and thus gets nerfed twice as hard.

And the best part is that there were two more logical options available: reduction of boon duration or more boon removal.

In the end though, it seems that +20% more damage versus staff eles was preferable…especially since warriors had such a hard time taking them down to begin with.

Leaving this here so I don’t have to type it twice. It has some trait comparisons and explanations for why myself and many other warriors think that Boon Hate isn’t worth sacrificing traits to get.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Wait-SotG-said-Warriors-are-getting-BUFFED/first#post1918592

gfox.6501

If you go to the warriors forums, most warrior players agree we really didn’t need ‘more damage’. What we are asking for is a way to be able to resist being totally shut down. There are a lot of ways to shutdown any warrior, but there aren’t any way for us to really counter being totally shutdown.

Agreed. I’d give up HB (don’t particularly care for GS anyway) and percent damage traits to get some meaningful changes to our utility skills and traits. I’m not thrilled about anything in this patch. Dogged March is the only change I somewhat like, but even it seems lazily done.

Prior to patch: Guardian throws up protection, regen, retaliation, and watches warrior kill himself with 100b while guardian takes minimal damage.

Post patch: Guardian throws up protection, regen, retaliation and watches warrior kill himself with 100b while guardian takes 7% more damage, still finishing the fight with > 90% hp.

If anyone thinks this “boon hate” thing is going to matter at all, they’re delusional.

I just find it funny to see so much worrying about Boon Hate. From what I’ve been able to understand, this will be a 30 pt trait in the Discipline line. As it stands currently, people just dip into that trait line for a T1 trait or two. Since the Brawn passive benefit was nerfed from +1% F1 Burst damage per point into +.01% damage per point, the line has been in a sorry state.

You’d have to be running some kind of crit-based spec to take the Discipline line to 30 pts. Even at that point, you’d have to sacrifice a lot of better options in other trait trees to push Discipline that high. Therefore people are costing themselves dps output and potential utility in exchange for a situational dps boost that is probably not worth it in the long run. All things considered, I’m really not impressed at this point. Yet if the devs are also going to rework the Brawn passive ability into something useful, then Discipline might become more attractive in the future.

So do you really think people will run warriors specifically to kill Bunker Guardians?