Guild Wars 2

Rauderi.8706:

DiogoSilva.7089:

tramwajarz.2369:

I can say what you said much more forum friendly: “games are getting more stupid so lazy new players don’t have to learn them so we can sell more boxes; p.s. who cares about veterans, they’ve already paid”

see? I said the same without wall of text

And I can make your post even more forum friendly:
“There’s no such thing as lazy players”.

See? I said the same as you with even less words.

More words coming, but also more precise:

Some people will complain about a game’s design without studying game design.

You hit the nail on the head, Diogo. Where other players kewkew about “dumbing down” and “removing options,” actual game designers are aiming for more elegant designs that give actual, useful choice instead of the illusion of choice.

What seems most ironic is that the people who want a thousand skills and traits, the illusion of choice, are the same ones who will follow metabuild guides limited to 3 or 4 optimizations, and then feel clever for doing so. Those same people will look at half of the traits and skills available and say “I never use those, ever. They suck. GAME NEEDS TO GIVE ME MORE SKILLS I WILL NEVER USE.”

Instead, the devs are looking at making each choice actually matter, much like Blizzard did with WoW. While it’s unfortunate that some of the non-6/6/2-6/4/4 builds aren’t going to be possible, it’s likely that the new traits will compress functionality into few, more potent options that might actually be desirable.

And people are mathing this out now. 196 thousand build combinations, before accounting for special class specs. Over 390 thousand including that. That is sufficient wiggle room, considering there will be maybe 50 meta builds that emerge.

nope.
wont happen.

they are trying to simplify the system, not increase viable possibilities.

also, a lot of the viability problems are more related to game design than trait selection.

do you think stop drop and roll is going to be useful in the meta?
soothing ice? in a meta where you try to never get hit?
remove a condition when you go water attunement? 1 condition?

and now, since there are less options in each, you have less chance that there will be some other useful trait to place there. 1 trait that doesnt fit you is 1/3rd of all possibilities, where before it was 1/6, 1/10, or a different trait line.

no, its not about increasing options or viability. The only way to increase viable options is to make more options that are good. lowering the number of options does not increase viability, just decreases the chances that there will be an option that is useful to you.

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

No, you are wrong mister.
The new system is totally based on current system. There is a change, some tweaks and merges but this is still trait system of 5 lines with multiple traits. The difference is at the end the range of choice is going to be much lower.

phys.7689:

do you think stop drop and roll is going to be useful in the meta?
soothing ice? in a meta where you try to never get hit?
remove a condition when you go water attunement? 1 condition?

All those are meta in pvp, or were one picked even at a higher tier (stop drop and roll).

Their effectiveness in pve is, as you said, related to design and not to trait selection. Hopefully, the new encounters will make those traits viable there.

Rauderi.8706:

You hit the nail on the head, Diogo. Where other players kewkew about “dumbing down” and “removing options,” actual game designers are aiming for more elegant designs that give actual, useful choice instead of the illusion of choice.

Elegant design, is it? I can think of very few finer examples of ‘elegant design’ than the currently implemented trait system and the NPE. Ascended gear comes to mind. The fractal reset. The way guild missions were implemented. Non-seasonal temporary content. Outfits. How many times have dailies been elegantly designed now?

I said it before, I’ll say it again: what an awful, horrible, virtually unplayable game GW2 must have been at launch, to warrant such elegant design improvements over the course of its relatively short life.

To all those saying don’t judge this harshly before we see it, I say: by the very same token, don’t praise it — elegantly or otherwise — before you see it. All we really have to go by is what’s been done so far, and what’s been done has not been elegant.

Dear Arenanet, We’ve been playing the hundred some hours of end-game content you provided us for thousands upon thousands of hours. We understand our builds better than you do, don’t treat us like children and take away our options because they might be ‘too confusing for us’

Eos.6951:

It’s posts like these that make anet devs not want to update us on what they’re working on.

Nope. The Gag Order was implemented to prevent the reaction, “But you promised!” when ANet stated something that was in development that was later dropped. Why? Whether they announce changes ahead of time or spring them unannounced, the players will see the change, and there will be negative reactions. The only functional difference is that if the negative reaction occurs before implementation, there’s a(n admittedly small) chance they might tweak things.

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

The blog gives enough information to determine that the number of options is being reduced. How is that not a valid point to be discussed?

maddoctor.2738:

PistolWhip.2697:

I simply don’t like that we can’t pick 2 Master’s or Adepts anymore. Though we’d have to wait and see on how they combine the traits, I am not too hopeful. In fact if this is as bad as I foresee and OP has predicted, it might actually push some players out of the game.

I made a post here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Water-Magic-trait-changes/first#post4999771 about the trait changes in the Water Magic trait line. It’s interesting to note that with the new system there appears to be far less competition (if any at all) for traits for the same playstyle on the same trait tier. If you want damage, you can get an adept, master and gm trait for damage, if you want survivability, there are traits for it, if you want party healing support, there is a different choice.

It’s too early to know for sure and we obviously don’t have enough information yet, however I believe they will address the issue of adept traits in master slots, by making the 3 traits available on each tier not competing with others for the same playstyle / role. For example, with the old system we have 2 traits in Water Adept that increase DPS and compete with each other, however with the new system there is no competition.

which basically means the realistic options/variations is small. as the thread says, it is fairly likely people will be clones.

essentially you wont be making too many actual choices

this is why i say its highly unlikely build variety will increase. the purpose is mostly to get people to pick the same traits.

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

You can, however, compare good fresh apples to overbaked cinnamon apples.

Lishtenbird.2814:

“Be careful what you wish for, ANet may give it to you,” they said.
We wished for build templates.
We got build templates… predefined build templates.

…

Now the question is: is not having a choice “fun”? Is “balance” worth taking stuff away from players, shoehorning them into cloned builds and making buildcrafting boring and bland?

My answer is NO. Honestly, I’ve been disheartened by many decisions over the past year, but this one has a very large chance to actually break the game for me. If I wanted to play a no-customization game, I would’ve chosen one of those free MMOs with preset race-class bindings, preset character body types, preset full-body dresses, 111 skill bars (and cute graphics on top). If I chose GW2 and stayed here, it’s because there are so many options that it keeps me busy for a long time (despite a desperate lack of content) – and once you take all of it away in favour of “streamlining” and making “less confusing” and “more compelling”, I’m out.

While I’m not ready to quit because of it, this is true and very disheartening to me. With this change they take all of the creativity in build making away from players. It’s very sad.

afk.8230:

Dear Arenanet, We’ve been playing the hundred some hours of end-game content you provided us for thousands upon thousands of hours. We understand our builds better than you do, don’t treat us like children and take away our options because they might be ‘too confusing for us’

+1

DiogoSilva.7089:

phys.7689:

do you think stop drop and roll is going to be useful in the meta?
soothing ice? in a meta where you try to never get hit?
remove a condition when you go water attunement? 1 condition?

All those are meta in pvp, or were one picked even at a higher tier (stop drop and roll).

Their effectiveness in pve is, as you said, related to design and not to trait selection. Hopefully, the new encounters will make those traits viable there.

exactly the flaw with reducing the number of possible traits.

some traits are very good, for specific situations.
now, with only 3 options, you basically have to take one of the other two options.

so now, once you start eliminating PVP traits how many viable builds can you really make?

tramwajarz.2369:

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

No, you are wrong mister.
The new system is totally based on current system. There is a change, some tweaks and merges but this is still trait system of 5 lines with multiple traits. The difference is at the end the range of choice is going to be much lower.

The big factor is the separation of attributes from trait lines. This alone will give diversity a huge boost and will completely change up trait usage.

With the current system, you have to balance what traits you want with what attribute bonuses you also need to make your build viable. With the new system the choices are separate. Meaning, for instance, a thief who wants to spec for high critical hit won’t have to choose to use the traits that are currently in the precision line and can instead choose freely from all the other options without messing with their critical hit %.

Mo Mo.1947:

tramwajarz.2369:

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

No, you are wrong mister.
The new system is totally based on current system. There is a change, some tweaks and merges but this is still trait system of 5 lines with multiple traits. The difference is at the end the range of choice is going to be much lower.

The big factor is the separation of attributes from trait lines. This alone will give diversity a huge boost and will completely change up trait usage.

With the current system, you have to balance what traits you want with what attribute bonuses you also need to make your build viable. With the new system the choices are separate. Meaning, for instance, a thief who wants to spec for high critical hit won’t have to choose to use the traits that are currently in the precision line and can instead choose freely from all the other options without messing with their critical hit %.

so why not just do that part, instead of limiting tratlines to 3, possibilities per slot to 3, and reducing total traits per line to 9

Mo Mo.1947:

tramwajarz.2369:

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

No, you are wrong mister.
The new system is totally based on current system. There is a change, some tweaks and merges but this is still trait system of 5 lines with multiple traits. The difference is at the end the range of choice is going to be much lower.

The big factor is the separation of attributes from trait lines. This alone will give diversity a huge boost and will completely change up trait usage.

With the current system, you have to balance what traits you want with what attribute bonuses you also need to make your build viable. With the new system the choices are separate. Meaning, for instance, a thief who wants to spec for high critical hit won’t have to choose to use the traits that are currently in the precision line and can instead choose freely from all the other options without messing with their critical hit %.

As I stated before, I’ve never chosen my traits looking at stats but only at trait effects.

Because wait a few hours and see for yourself on the live stream.

None of us have any clear info right this minute and that’s my point. Wait until they give us info to go off of.

The biggest problem with this new system is the fact that we have to be locked into 3 trait lines.

Seriously why is it even there? Moreover, surely you players who like the new system have to agree on this useless restriction.

my original post is a bit of a knee jerk. we simply do not have enough info to say too much but if it turns out to be a steaming pile you heard it here among a lot of the players first folks

tramwajarz.2369:

As I stated before, I’ve never chosen my traits looking at stats but only at trait effects.

Well since you’re not everyone I don’t really see your point. I was talking about general usage of traits. And my example came from my own experience traiting for my thief. So in my case this change is going to give me a lot more diversity in PvP that my little thief didn’t have before.

maddoctor.2738:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Perhaps Anet should just make 3 set-in-stone (non-configureable) builds for each profession that you can choose from, give each of these builds a unique name and advertise to the masses that “now there’s 27 professions!”

I’m sure everyone will gobble that up: “even more choice now!”

Actually this new system looks like it will be much better balanced than the old one. A game that is easier for the devs to balance can lead to better content too.

The same was said for reducing the number of skills available in GW2 compared to GW1 yet this is being brought up again. At what point will the system be small and simple enough for the devs to handle?

maddoctor.2738:

Tank.7821:

Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…

Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.

You are both wrong! :P
They will run around without having any trait points allocated and not traits set even if they had some of them unlocked.

Khisanth.2948:

maddoctor.2738:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Perhaps Anet should just make 3 set-in-stone (non-configureable) builds for each profession that you can choose from, give each of these builds a unique name and advertise to the masses that “now there’s 27 professions!”

I’m sure everyone will gobble that up: “even more choice now!”

Actually this new system looks like it will be much better balanced than the old one. A game that is easier for the devs to balance can lead to better content too.

The same was said for reducing the number of skills available in GW2 compared to GW1 yet this is being brought up again. At what point will the system be small and simple enough for the devs to handle?

Do you actually want as many skills as they had in GW1? You need to read up on skill balancing in MMOs if you really don’t understand how over the top and out of control GW1’s skill pool was.

OH MY GOD! DOOM AND GLOOM!

The traits that were removed have been integrated back into the profession and the stats associated with traitlines have been loaded onto gear. Not only are builds gonna open up since there will be no more trait/traitline conflicts but you are going to get your traits regardless. BTW…

Mo Mo.1947:

tramwajarz.2369:

As I stated before, I’ve never chosen my traits looking at stats but only at trait effects.

Well since you’re not everyone I don’t really see your point. I was talking about general usage of traits. And my example came from my own experience traiting for my thief. So in my case this change is going to give me a lot more diversity in PvP that my little thief didn’t have before.

You can’t inspect any player in game so you have no idea which traits are used and which don’t either.

vectorfox.6894:

The biggest problem with this new system is the fact that we have to be locked into 3 trait lines.

Seriously why is it even there? Moreover, surely you players who like the new system have to agree on this useless restriction.

Nope, don’t have to. I’m excited about the prospect and the tough, impactful choices it will force us to make.

tramwajarz.2369:

Mo Mo.1947:

tramwajarz.2369:

As I stated before, I’ve never chosen my traits looking at stats but only at trait effects.

Well since you’re not everyone I don’t really see your point. I was talking about general usage of traits. And my example came from my own experience traiting for my thief. So in my case this change is going to give me a lot more diversity in PvP that my little thief didn’t have before.

You can’t inspect any player in game so you have no idea which traits are used and which don’t either.

Lol is this some sort of endless loop? “You can’t know” is my entire point. Everyone needs to save their complaints until they have enough info to know what they’lre complaining about.

And thanks to communicating with other human beings, which doesn’t require the ingame UI, I actually CAN have an idea about what traits people are generally using and how they are using them. Communication ftw.

Mo Mo.1947:

tramwajarz.2369:

Mo Mo.1947:

tramwajarz.2369:

As I stated before, I’ve never chosen my traits looking at stats but only at trait effects.

Well since you’re not everyone I don’t really see your point. I was talking about general usage of traits. And my example came from my own experience traiting for my thief. So in my case this change is going to give me a lot more diversity in PvP that my little thief didn’t have before.

You can’t inspect any player in game so you have no idea which traits are used and which don’t either.

Lol is this some sort of endless loop? “You can’t know” is my entire point. Everyone needs to save their complaints until they have enough info to know what they’lre complaining about.

And thanks to communicating with other human beings, which doesn’t require the ingame UI, I actually CAN have an idea about what traits people are generally using and how they are using them. Communication ftw.

In the same manner I can generally have an idea of what’s going to change after reading the blog post. See?

I don’t feel like I have a choice in the current system. I’m rolling a generic highly rated PVP meta build right now and dominating. Such a choice!

It makes far more sense for them to just make the meta builds, and then you get like 4 per profession as opposed to be lucky if your prof is even in the current top meta.

No, it’s not a LOT of choice. But if we wanted that the time to complain was before GW2 came out and they ditched dual professions. That was the real change to the series. It’s too late now. We’re not getting “choice” in this iteration of GW no matter what we say, so I’ll take this next idea over what we have now.

Tachenon.5270:

Elegant design, is it? I can think of very few finer examples of ‘elegant design’ than the currently implemented trait system and the NPE. Ascended gear comes to mind. The fractal reset. The way guild missions were implemented. Non-seasonal temporary content. Outfits. How many times have dailies been elegantly designed now?

But the currently implemented trait system is anything but elegant. Obtaining traits right now is obscure, based on random events, and force the player to play unnaturally. It can’t be used as an example against “elegant design”, because it isn’t one. Meanwhile, the system it was based on, GW1’s elite skill hunting, was more elegant and, in turn, more appealing. In fact, it was GW1’s elite skill hunting that made the playerbase wish for something similar to it in GW2, and thus the reason why Anet ultimately made trait unlocking as it is right now. But GW2’s version failed because it lacked the appeal, the clarity, the simplicity and the immersion of GW1’s.

Likewise, ascended gear was anything but elegant. Its crafting recipes are a confusing mess. The “unique” type has made players waste laurels. Infusions are an unnecessary new upgrade slot that clutters the description text of all gear, without adding anything worth to it. A more elegant solution to it would have been to simply add ascended version of runes/ sigils into the game and call it a day.

I could go on, but my point should be clear by now. Many design decisions made by Anet have been mediocre since launch, but they have little to do with “elegant design”.

NPE is an interesting case. In GW2, much like in GW1, leveling is part of the tutorial experience. NPE fully embraced that idea and built on it, with rewards, a gradual sense of progression and tutorials linked to leveling. It was elegant and, for the most part, actually quite successful. The annoyances lie at some of the arbitrary, restrictive details, like forcing players to backtrack map completion due to no access to vistas/ SPs (=not elegant), trait progression coming too late (something that the new system SEEMS to fix), or the pure dumbing down of early events/ hearts.

I like the new combined traits but I hate the fact that you are limited to maximizing 3 trait lines.

It just seems like an enormous mistake if Anet want’s build diversity.

DiogoSilva.7089:

It was elegant and, for the most part, actually quite successful.

If anything, I feel it’s failed.
Try map completion on a new toon. You will be forced to go to a few scouts just to reveal several hearts that were previously always visible like the rest.
Ask players about the GLORIOUS level-up tutorial on Combo-fields.
Go ahead, ask 10 players what a Dark field and a Whirl finisher will do.
I’ll be surprised if some don’t say “Whats a Dark field?”
In order to “learn how to dodge” a player has to go around a specific section of the map, which can be completely missed.

They aren’t real tutorials. It’s clunky to both new and old players.
It doesn’t streamline how to play the game any smoother or better. I’ve bought the game for a few of my friends and watched the NPE fail and create lazy and terrible players from its design.
Traits weren’t as ridiculous as 100% Map completion of FGS for an ADEPT trait either.
It was “successful” in the way that people had no choice but to deal with it regardless of how terrible it is. Why do you think the NPE is the running joke?

Inb4 my Condi trap ranger with axa/axe & s/wh becomes useless and ill have to run something like sb.

phys.7689:

which basically means the realistic options/variations is small. as the thread says, it is fairly likely people will be clones.

They’re already clones. TurtleofPower’s testimony.

I don’t feel like I have a choice in the current system. I’m rolling a generic highly rated PVP meta build right now and dominating. Such a choice!

And there will always be common-play builds. Adding new skills won’t change that, it just shifts attention to the new skills while others become “worthless.” Skills and traits would become a bloated, mostly-ignored mess, like GW1.

Streamlining options to make them more equivalent and play defining is the better design route. It’s about creating ‘incomparables’ that give actual choice instead of a dozen mediocre choices that don’t define play nearly as well.

As per usual, nice post Lishtenbird.

Overall I agree and understand the issue with the more restricted choice.

However, they can still pull off a good system I think if they actually make me want to choose different trait options.

Currently there’s just such a big discrepancy on the power of traits taht I’m often left feeling like I “need” to get certain ones. Leaving other interseting traits untouched because they just don’t have the oomf that these other ones do. If the combining and reworking of traits leaves me with more powerful options, well I’ll be happy. Less options overall but a greater amount of powerful builds, that’d be fine by me. I could go on, but I’ll leave it at that, my head is swimming witht he possibilities, and I really think they can pull it off, whether they will botch it or not though, we’ll see.

Mo Mo.1947:

Khisanth.2948:

maddoctor.2738:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Perhaps Anet should just make 3 set-in-stone (non-configureable) builds for each profession that you can choose from, give each of these builds a unique name and advertise to the masses that “now there’s 27 professions!”

I’m sure everyone will gobble that up: “even more choice now!”

Actually this new system looks like it will be much better balanced than the old one. A game that is easier for the devs to balance can lead to better content too.

The same was said for reducing the number of skills available in GW2 compared to GW1 yet this is being brought up again. At what point will the system be small and simple enough for the devs to handle?

Do you actually want as many skills as they had in GW1? You need to read up on skill balancing in MMOs if you really don’t understand how over the top and out of control GW1’s skill pool was.

See also: ‘off the hook’, ‘awesome’, and ‘glorious’.

Talonblaze.3175:

DiogoSilva.7089:

It was elegant and, for the most part, actually quite successful.

If anything, I feel it’s failed.
Try map completion on a new toon. You will be forced to go to a few scouts just to reveal several hearts that were previously always visible like the rest.
Ask players about the GLORIOUS level-up tutorial on Combo-fields.
Go ahead, ask 10 players what a Dark field and a Whirl finisher will do.
I’ll be surprised if some don’t say “Whats a Dark field?”
In order to “learn how to dodge” a player has to go around a specific section of the map, which can be completely missed.

They aren’t real tutorials. It’s clunky to both new and old players.
It doesn’t streamline how to play the game any smoother or better. I’ve bought the game for a few of my friends and watched the NPE fail and create lazy and terrible players from its design.
Traits weren’t as ridiculous as 100% Map completion of FGS for an ADEPT trait either.
It was “successful” in the way that people had no choice but to deal with it regardless of how terrible it is. Why do you think the NPE is the running joke?

Yeah… Pretty much agree with all identified mis-steps ANet’s taken over the past few years. NPE is a clunky mess, traits 2.0 obviously needed to be pitched at conception. And so on. Because none of it was really all that elegant in design. Too convoluted for even their own devs to follow and implement cleanly.

I can see they’re trying. They’re closing in on more elegant design decisions. Dailies are getting close.

But, they’re missing the mark on details. And the details, much like their failure with Traits 2.0, are what keep me from being 100% excited for the change.

tramwajarz.2369:

GW1 pvx wiki got almost 200 builds for PvE only.
Gw2 metabattle has 10-20 builds.

I … Yes and do you remember how many radical balance changes had to happen and how frequently in order to make the game fairish? I would much rather have a smaller but more meaningful amount of traits, with those traits we are losing worked back into the profession in other ways (combined into a new trait, added into a skill) as they are doing. Skills also did not swap depending on weapon, there were no utility and healing skills… traits do not make the entirety of a build. I change my skills so much more frequently in GW2 depending on the situation that I don’t even really end up needing to adhere to a meta build to be successful.

You also have to take into account secondary profession combinations in GW1, the number of team builds and builds specifically in PvX geared toward a specific farm… honestly I don’t think it’s a valid comparison at all. Even with all the theoretical build diversity in GW1, you still see the same core handful of skills suggested over and over.

I guess my point is perhaps fewer builds are meta in GW2 because far more builds are actually viable (“thriveable” would be my preferred word if it existed) through far more of the content than GW1, leaving only a few standout builds to feel OP/meta. imo that’s a good thing.

Talonblaze.3175:

If anything, I feel it’s failed.
Try map completion on a new toon. You will be forced to go to a few scouts just to reveal several hearts that were previously always visible like the rest.
Ask players about the GLORIOUS level-up tutorial on Combo-fields.
Go ahead, ask 10 players what a Dark field and a Whirl finisher will do.
I’ll be surprised if some don’t say “Whats a Dark field?”
In order to “learn how to dodge” a player has to go around a specific section of the map, which can be completely missed.

They aren’t real tutorials. It’s clunky to both new and old players.
It doesn’t streamline how to play the game any smoother or better. I’ve bought the game for a few of my friends and watched the NPE fail and create lazy and terrible players from its design.
Traits weren’t as ridiculous as 100% Map completion of FGS for an ADEPT trait either.
It was “successful” in the way that people had no choice but to deal with it regardless of how terrible it is. Why do you think the NPE is the running joke?

To be clear, I was only talking about the leveling up menu when I said it was kind of elegant. In my opinion, that feature worked (mostly) fine. It made leveling slightly more rewarding (traits aside), and presented each main feature in a clearer way. When I made my girlfriend play the game, she also quite enjoyed the new level up menu, especially when it rewarded her with new items and skins. So that’s at least one example of a newbie enjoying that single feature.

Other than that, I generally agree with you. Trait acquisition, vista/ SP locking, lack of tutorial information, complete removal of difficulty, event/ heart content stripping, etc could have been handled way better.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

However we know that some traits are getting merged. Other traits are getting dropped and having their functionality implemented directly into the game. The perfect example of this is the one they gave with Necro wells. Wells will now be ground target by default, because that trait no longer exists.

That sort of change isn’t necessarily good or bad but you seem to be trying to paint it as a positive thing. I currently use the ground targeted trait for wells on my necromancer but when experimenting the other day I found it played smoother without that trait on a different build. Better for one build, worse for another(no impact on the numbers, just playstyle).

I could see them doing something similar with Warden’s Feedback. Merge the cool down reduction with a different trait, and let the focus 4 and 5 reflect naturally by default. I could also see them taking Glamour Mastery and Temporal Enchanter and rolling it into a single trait. Which, depending on how they shuffle all that around, I could still end up with all the current build functionality that I use when reflecting.

Maybe after all this will finally be a mesmer build that I can enjoy.
Mesmer is the only class in the game where there isn’t any build I like.

You can blame that on the completely impractical mechanics for mesmers. Ugh, I hope their specialization does something interesting to free them from the burden of the current profession mechanics.

OP you are overreacting, let’s first see how the new system pans out and then you can whine about it.

Talonblaze.3175:

DiogoSilva.7089:

It was elegant and, for the most part, actually quite successful.

If anything, I feel it’s failed.
Try map completion on a new toon. You will be forced to go to a few scouts just to reveal several hearts that were previously always visible like the rest.

Hearts were never always visible. Hearts were uncovered when you got into a certain range. At most they might have moved some so location for uncovering is different but that is really minor.

Ask players about the GLORIOUS level-up tutorial on Combo-fields.
Go ahead, ask 10 players what a Dark field and a Whirl finisher will do.

Pfft who needs anything besides Fire+Blast?!

more seriously it is disappointing how frequently other combos are ignored but on the other hand trying to get the correct result can be unreliable. Drop a water field, blast it, area weakness! Great. -_-

Khisanth.2948:

Hearts were never always visible. Hearts were uncovered when you got into a certain range. At most they might have moved some so location for uncovering is different but that is really minor.

When you generally “discovered” an area (which is usually a large chunk of the map), hearts will be revealed to you.
However, the NPE has purposefully hidden hearts that do not activate unless you are within immediate proximity.
Take Ashford plains, right outside the gate.
You can move to various parts of the map and hearts will be revealed to you.
However, if you don’t jump right into that cow pen or talk to a scout, you’ll never know a heart was there.

I’m sorry, but anyone who doesn’t realize that statements like these…

The new, more streamlined unlock system is friendlier to new players and much less of a burden on players with multiple characters.

By locking traits to tiers and reducing the overall number of traits, we’ve made each choice much more compelling.

…are really just super sleazy ways of saying they’re dumbing the game down is going to have a pretty eye-opening experience when the expansion is released. When they use words like “compelling” and “streamlined,” make no mistake, they are pulling a Deus Ex 2.

I’m kind of getting the reason ANet says nothing lately. They release this little bit of information, and it’s like the end of the world or something. Again, can we at least wait to see this in practice, say in a beta test or something, before we say, “The sky is falling!”

I know I’m repeating myself, but let’s see it first before we say it’s kitten.

Edit: That said, I have the sneaking suspicion Listen is right . . . again. This reeks of what Blizzard did to their old trait trees. I’ll just leave it at that . . . like I left Warcraft after they made that change.

When 3/3/3/3/2 Ele build is widely used, I would agree there is diversity.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

This reeks of what Blizzard did to their old trait trees.

Old school WoW trees were a mess of bloat and micromanaging with numerous traps and the same “choose this or go home” selections that the GW2 trait trees already have. Not to mention, the old WoW system doomed itself in vertical progression, because more talent points meant more chances to dip into other trees in an unintended way and more micromanaging. It’s not difficult, it’s just tedious.
And, there were some talent points that always, always went to the same place like crit bonuses. So those were moved out of talent progressions and just given to the class/spec during leveling.

If the illusion of choice has six options, but only two are superior, there’s not much of an actual choice; only two choices and four “why would anyone ever pick those” traps. The choices a player does make in a messy, bloated system like that are less meaningful. Not to mention, the options that weren’t used often end up ignored by developers because no one used them anyway. They were too busy balancing against meta builds to deal with obviously inferior choices.

And yes, it is easier to balance 3 traits in a tier instead of 6. So doing that for development reasons isn’t wrong.

Going out on a limb here, but hopefully they will also include a build saver. If the traits are going to be trimmed down and better organized, being able to instantly recall a silver bullet build or hard counter on demand will be very helpful..

Using elementalist as an example:

General Combat, Fire/Air/Tempest for the big numbers.
Vs. Attrition, Earth/Water/Arcane for survivability.
New heavy armored foes? Fire/Earth/Water for the burns, bleeds, vuln etc.

Cautiously optimistic here that the new slimmed down specializations will still allow us to do All The Things, just not all at once. Teamwork is good, right?

Rauderi.8706:

Old school WoW trees were a mess of bloat and micromanaging with numerous traps and the same “choose this or go home” selections that the GW2 trait trees already have. Not to mention, the old WoW system doomed itself in vertical progression, because more talent points meant more chances to dip into other trees in an unintended way and more micromanaging. It’s not difficult, it’s just tedious.
And, there were some talent points that always, always went to the same place like crit bonuses. So those were moved out of talent progressions and just given to the class/spec during leveling.

If the illusion of choice has six options, but only two are superior, there’s not much of an actual choice; only two choices and four “why would anyone ever pick those” traps. The choices a player does make in a messy, bloated system like that are less meaningful. Not to mention, the options that weren’t used often end up ignored by developers because no one used them anyway. They were too busy balancing against meta builds to deal with obviously inferior choices.

And yes, it is easier to balance 3 traits in a tier instead of 6. So doing that for development reasons isn’t wrong.

You might be right, but you’re missing the point. If I wanted to make my character a mess of bad choices, I should have the option. I shouldn’t have to follow the legion of sheep that say, “Such and such build is the best,” and be all but forced to play it.

Easier to balance doesn’t make it right. It just makes it lazy. And it also caters to those players who can’t think for themselves and need someone else, developers included, to tell them how to build a class and play the game.

Hasn’t the new leveling system taught ANet that hand-holding is a bad decision already?

But, again, we’ll see.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Rauderi.8706:

Old school WoW trees were a mess of bloat and micromanaging with numerous traps and the same “choose this or go home” selections that the GW2 trait trees already have. Not to mention, the old WoW system doomed itself in vertical progression, because more talent points meant more chances to dip into other trees in an unintended way and more micromanaging. It’s not difficult, it’s just tedious.
And, there were some talent points that always, always went to the same place like crit bonuses. So those were moved out of talent progressions and just given to the class/spec during leveling.

If the illusion of choice has six options, but only two are superior, there’s not much of an actual choice; only two choices and four “why would anyone ever pick those” traps. The choices a player does make in a messy, bloated system like that are less meaningful. Not to mention, the options that weren’t used often end up ignored by developers because no one used them anyway. They were too busy balancing against meta builds to deal with obviously inferior choices.

And yes, it is easier to balance 3 traits in a tier instead of 6. So doing that for development reasons isn’t wrong.

You might be right, but you’re missing the point. If I wanted to make my character a mess of bad choices, I should have the option. I shouldn’t have to follow the legion of sheep that say, “Such and such build is the best,” and be all but forced to play it.

Easier to balance doesn’t make it right. It just makes it lazy. And it also caters to those players who can’t think for themselves and need someone else, developers included, to tell them how to build a class and play the game.

Hasn’t the new leveling system taught ANet that hand-holding is a bad decision already?

But, again, we’ll see.

It’s not as if you won’t still have choices. 27 different combinations per tree, multiple trees. If the changes leave us with more actual choices I’ll be stoked. I rather have more good builds than more bad ones.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

You might be right, but you’re missing the point. If I wanted to make my character a mess of bad choices, I should have the option. I shouldn’t have to follow the legion of sheep that say, “Such and such build is the best,” and be all but forced to play it.

Easier to balance doesn’t make it right. It just makes it lazy. And it also caters to those players who can’t think for themselves and need someone else, developers included, to tell them how to build a class and play the game.

Hasn’t the new leveling system taught ANet that hand-holding is a bad decision already?

But, again, we’ll see.

From a design retro-perspective, a good design shouldn’t have let you make “bad” choices in the first place. But that’s philosophy.

Finding the right balance between complexity and depth is… hard. I won’t begrudge anyone that. Excess complexity without depth is pointless. But to compare to WoW for a moment, the shift away from the “tree” model was a good one. It allowed for continued vertical growth (for as much as it’s going to get in its twilight years. >_>) and it gave players meaningful choices. Where I’m beginning to feel the “meeeh” is how they keep removing skills until everyone’s rotations are 3 button presses (outside of PvP). So, to agree, at least in part, continued oversimplification can be just as dangerous as overcomplication. We’ll all be do new research on builds and such, but I suspect it should still feel better than WoW, at least.

I’m going to remain cautiously optimistic and hit up those skill point challenges so I can hit the ground running on HoT release, while I wait for more details.