Guild Wars 2

1. Set number of people
15-25 (3 to 5 5-man parties) 20 is, I think, a good number
2. Different degree of difficutlies
I would love to see a “Normal” mode and a “Hardcore” mode.
3. Unique Raid UI/More Features for Squad
I think an upgrade to squad, or an entirely new unique Raid UI would make you really feel like you are part of a larger team. It will be tough to keep the same mentality of wanting to see what’s actually going on, and not watching UI’s. However, at least seeing the other parties, and each other party members health bars will allow the leader, and others, to know the flow of battle more.

Gives us the Guild Hall and we will be happy

Quint.3765:

Gives us the Guild Hall and we will be happy

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Le Bump.

Get your top three priorities in folks. We will be closing this thread on Monday and shortly after the GvG CDI will begin!

Chris

I’ve posted in this thread the few ideas I had to make raids better, if they’re implemented into GW2. Now, however, I’m going to be completely blunt and state what I want from this.

1. No Raids. I seriously think this is a bad idea and the wrong way for this game to go. Stop trying to be World of GuildWars 2, you’re just playing to your weaknesses.

2. No Endgame. Seriously, enough of this crap. The majority of this game isn’t at level 80, it’s levels 2-79. Do you find that part of the game to be so worthless that you feel it should be pressed through as fast as possible and then ignored? Level 80 already has new content, it’s called the Living Story. Maybe you’ve heard of it?

3. Improve The Main Game. Fix downscaling so that old levels are still challenging. Take some of those interesting boss ideas and toss them out into the world at large, I’m sure there’s a lot of fights that can use a revamp. Just don’t go Teq and 3-Wurm on it, it should fit the zone it’s put into.

There are games out there that have been churning out raids longer than GW2’s been around, and they’re better made for it than GW2 is. Stop trying to play their game, you’re not going to catch them. Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be something different.

Prove it.

I am not pleased with dungeons in gw2 now, more the npe or trait system.

For raids to be done well, you need them to be challenging.

They can’t be dungeon-like challenging where if you simply dodge attacks in make damage gear, you beat the encounter.

If you can pull that off (challenging with non zerg, max dps only), then your raids will be successful. That is the result I care about. It doesn’t matter to me how you get there.

Palador.2170:

[…]

That is really sad.
You don’t event know what could be raids in guild wars 2 but you throw the idea away.

Colin Johanson said :

Think outside the box and ask yourself what other “raid” type systems don’t do well, and consider proposals that you think both make best use of what Guild Wars does well

Let see what we got in the game that other game have :
- Healers :
Direct heal, heal over time, damage absorption, damage reduction, resurection
- Dps :
Conditions, Control effect (fear, stun), Interrupt, Stealth, Swiftness
- Tank :
- Damage reflection (both close and ranged)

Now, what Guild Wars 2 got but not other game :
- Players mecanics :
- as a group
Combo system
Wall of reflection / absorption (ie : depends of your position, not a buff)
Revive
- as a single unit
Launch effect
Evade
Downed state

- World mecanics
Using looted item as weapon
Building (walls, door, siege weapon)

What is a typical raid encounter in other MMO ?

- Specific role : support (healer), dps and interrupt (nuker), aggro and control/positionning (tank).
- Distinct phase between dps and survival.
- Clear trigger between each phase.
- Follow a pattern.
- Challenge = HP pool x hit damage

What could be GW2-DNA Raids ?

- Use GW2 specific game mecanics (list above).
- Invert role during the fight.
- Randomize patterns.
- Challenge = insert new pattern

purecontact.1680:

Palador.2170:

[…]

That is really sad.
You don’t event know what could be raids in guild wars 2 but you throw the idea away.

Colin Johanson said :

Think outside the box and ask yourself what other “raid” type systems don’t do well, and consider proposals that you think both make best use of what Guild Wars does well

I know very well what they could be in this game, and yes I still throw the idea away. Awesome stuff that winds up doing the game more harm than good isn’t really all that awesome in the long run. That’s what I think raids will be, potentially awesome but damaging in the long run.

But hey, thanks for assuming that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Top three priorities, for Raids as a general topic? Awesome :-)

1. Interesting, well thought out mechanics – things that make people think, that allow a variety of different roles to flourish. Also, preferably something to prevent zerk+reflect cornerstacking or similar strategies.
2. Unique, desirable rewards – something that would make want people do the raid instead of just grinding more dungeons – a reward that isn’t the generic gold amount + golden chests, that remains useful end-game.
3. Large-scale. A feeling distinct from dungeons, where people work together as a group with multiple roles – enough people and activity around to require co-ordination of the effort of individuals.

Palador.2170:

I’ve posted in this thread the few ideas I had to make raids better, if they’re implemented into GW2. Now, however, I’m going to be completely blunt and state what I want from this.

1. No Raids. I seriously think this is a bad idea and the wrong way for this game to go. Stop trying to be World of GuildWars 2, you’re just playing to your weaknesses.

2. No Endgame. Seriously, enough of this crap. The majority of this game isn’t at level 80, it’s levels 2-79. Do you find that part of the game to be so worthless that you feel it should be pressed through as fast as possible and then ignored? Level 80 already has new content, it’s called the Living Story. Maybe you’ve heard of it?

3. Improve The Main Game. Fix downscaling so that old levels are still challenging. Take some of those interesting boss ideas and toss them out into the world at large, I’m sure there’s a lot of fights that can use a revamp. Just don’t go Teq and 3-Wurm on it, it should fit the zone it’s put into.

There are games out there that have been churning out raids longer than GW2’s been around, and they’re better made for it than GW2 is. Stop trying to play their game, you’re not going to catch them. Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be something different.

Prove it.

With all due respect palador I think you have forgotten the purpose of a CDI. A CDI is a brainstorm where we can suggest ideas to improve existing formulas/content.

I think we all agree that GW2 should not copy the traditionnal WoW raid formula. However, it does not mean that GW2 should not have instanced challenging large group content. A vocal minority of players have been requesting this type of content since launch. It turns out that this minority includes a lot of players that are passionate about this game and do not want to ruin it.

Look at the proposal of of TTS on that matter : they suggest to implement an instanced version for each MB already in the game and have a tougher challenge in these instances. Does this really look like a WoW raid ? Not really.

The idea of multi-path instances that can be completed simultaneously or sequentially also goes in this direction : content that is inclusive and can accomodate groups of multiple sizes.

There are many other good ideas hidden in the arcanes of this CDI and I’m sure the devs have may more. None of us wants to recreate raids that require guild to be like military structures to be completed.

Just keep it up man and have faith

Edit : You have a point when you say : “consolidate what is already in the game before adding stuff”.

1. Knowledge and Challenge:
In Guild Wars 1, when the elite areas (Underworld, Fissure of Woe, etc.) came out they were very difficult to finish, even before Hard Mode came into existence. As time went on these areas each got easier and easier to do. Underworld could be done casually in 30 minutes. Fissure of Woe would be done in 10-20 minutes. Urgoz took 10-30 minutes (depending on Assassin tank or manly way). The Deep could be done in under 10 minutes. The Domain of Anguish was able to be farmed in 30-40 minutes.

All of these areas took hours to do when they were first introduced. As the game progressed and people were able to play in these areas more, they learned better ways to do them. Once their map layouts, quests, boss/area mechanics, monster skills, monster leashing points, and more were all learned each of these areas became farm-able for guilds that did them regularly. At one point it even pugs were able do most of them.

These areas each posed difficulty at their introduction into the game and even towards the launch of Guild Wars 2. Even for experienced groups, there sometime were screw ups and wipes, but the challenge was still there even 5-7 years later.

2. Small Size
One of the core game mechanics in GW2 is the ability to have the game engine scale an event or boss to the amount of people that are around it. This is a true fact that the devs improve on whenever they can for more playable open world content.

For open world bosses (aside from Tequtal and Triple Trouble) the majority of people are able to stand there and press 1 during the boss and the pre events. For the Mega Bosses, we have to split into smaller groups (Teq for defenses, TT for specific wurm groups, and condi/reflect teams) which means more individual recognition for those who are in those groups. The rest of the people are basically a zerg of a people that follow the commander around. There is no individual recognition for these players because they are a 40-120 man group.

Keeping the size small for raids (10 at a minimum, 20 at the absolute maximum) will give people a better understanding of what they can do for the raid. Each player’s contribution will be more easily seen by the others and where each player actually matters.

3. Unique Rewards
As I stated before the Guild Wars 1 elite areas were are able to be farmed from year 4 onward. There was a reason for this of course and it wasn’t just because they were fun to do. Each area offered different and unique rewards (DoA: arm braces, FoW: obsidian shards and obsidian armor, UW: ectos, minis, and unique weapons, Urgoz & Deep: unique weapon skins, armor materials, faction points) which made people actually want to do them, especially during bonus weekends. Each of these rewards gave players incentives to keep doing the zones more and more.

For raids in GW2, we should have a set of rewards that are given to players for each boss they beat and the entire zone. There were a few ideas that incorporated this (Nike’s post on page 2 being one of my favorites), but having unique rewards that players want to have will make them do the raids even after its been out for a year or two.

Top 3 priorities :

1) Brilliant mechanics such as what was displayed in the marionette event. It should promote community game-play like with your guildies, friends etc, because megaserver while beneficial in many ways was a huge blow to the community feeling in servers…..The current guild missions are very much insufficient. Bringing together the guild only once a week is not enough.

2) Maps that can accommodate the players and the flashy effects/graphics without lag

3) Rewards worth playing for even if the RNG chance is small, the rewards should be good. For Eg. Materials for further upgrading our legendary weapons

id like to say that the underground champs in silverwastes would be perfect trash fights (or even mini boss fights, with a few mechanics added) for a raid in my opinion, if they were less forgiving. at the moment the aoes dont really scratch you even in full berserker gear.

1. tuning of graphic effects

the GW2-engine has no real option to tune down the effects which often makes it impossible to see the boss or even the own character

2. condition cap

makes condition-builds, -weapons, -classes bad for larger encounters

As long as you can´t fix these basic points all raid-design is based on swamp

Issues regarding to raids.

1. Boon, buff, skill aoe cap and mob attacks.
As i previously said it can cause problems in party compositions both if we still have the current system or raise the cap to infinite.

2. Grouping up.
How is the leader of the group is choosen?
In the way explorer dungeons works? If so, what are the prerequisites?
If not, how would the raid party management work?
If it’s guild restricted should it be require a commander?
How would the squad system work in that?
How would you manage your 5 man parties?

3. UI, visuals
How would party management work with multiple 5 man parties? What should and not should seen on the UI? Particle effects … ?

5. Accessibility
Instanced or not? I hope it’s instanced.
Guild restricted or not?

6. Replayability
Daily, weekly or monthly resets on rewards?
Pure rng drops (unique ones of course) or guaranteed rewards with token system?
Should be legendary items implemented as a raid only reward?
What should the raid offer if players are not interested in vanity items (pets, tonics, skins, etc.) and vertical progression is out of the question.

7. challenge
Should it be balanced for lvl80 characters? (yes, pls yes)
Should it be balanced for exotic only or ascended gear should be taken into consideration? (yes, hell yes)
What kind of gearset should be the etalon in regard of damage requirement and survivability?
Scale or not to scale? If scales, wouldn’t it destroy the ability to run it in a competitive environment same as we have in regular dungeons? If it isn’t what would be the ideal player number based on above issues?
__________________________________________________________
My head is full of potato. Did i miss anything?

Just going to add this real quick before Chris swoops in to lock this thread.
Raids would be an excellent time to introduce the following alongside them:

1. Adding an upgrade to allow stat switching to ascended gear. If people are encouraged to try out different stat sets such as condi-damage, it would be a good idea to add an upgrade that allows players to change their ascended gear to that stat set.

2. New Ascended acquisition methods. Currently the only way to get ascended armor and weapons is through RNG or crafting, it would be nice if there were alternative methods, Raiding could be one but I’m sure players wouldn’t mind being able to get them through fractals or something.

3. New Stat sets. Sinister is already probably filling a possible new stat set niche that Raids could create but one or two new stat sets catering to niche roles (like boon duration gear) would be nice

4. Legendary Armor. We discussed this heavily in the thread but Raids could be one piece in a massive puzzle to create legendary armor.

I see the raid system same an extension of the alliances. An alliance can make a raid team, and fight for their alliance and their world, agains other worlds (servers).

My top 3:

1.- Social Rewards:
Two types of raids, cooperative and competitive. Inside a world all guilds make raids cooperating for a shared goal. For example, a bonus in magic find for a week, after completing a Raid, for all players in a world (not only the participants in the raid). Competitive raids between two worlds. A social reward can be “the best world in pve raiding” title, and one special design in their (future) capes for a year. This can add a competitive factor, not only in pvp with world vs world.

2.- Visual Rewards:
Legendary armor can be a minimal part of visual rewards. If the raid system its based in alliances, we can add the visual rewards to guild halls or alliance halls. Statues with their achievements, exclusive decoration only for the winners, or special minigames unlocked.

3.- Revitalized content Rewards:
This type of reward is for players of raid content, no need to win to get them, only play the reward content. Example. Get one map, and make a big raid encounter in that map. All paths of the dungeon in orr can make a good raid. Add a new Lore to the zone, to start a new raid.

Goals:

- Add competitive content between worlds in pve.
- Exclusive rewards for Raids.
- More Lore to learn is a good reward.
- Fans of Gw2 can revisit zones of the game and see new aspects of them.
- Arenanet can speed up the process of making Raid content, using existing maps.

Crystal Reid.2481:

moiraine.2753:

Chris,

I want to ask you something.Will Defiance be redesigned?Is there any plan for it at all?Because right now it is removing the need of any CC in the fights.If raids come will interrupts,stuns,fear become an actual mechanic?Will they be more useful from now?

All I can say on this is we have been talking about it internally and trying to come up with different solutions that make CC valuable without allowing players to “stun lock” creatures (which would be a very real problem if we did not have Defiance). I can’t say any more on that at this time, so here’s a better question for you:

If we removed Defiance, how would you propose a replacement that makes CC (interrupts, stuns, fears etc) valuable without creating a situation that allows players to CC a creature to death.

If mobs can do it to players, it’s only fair.

About defiance :
- separate interupt effect from crow control effect.
- insert timed window in which all controll effect are allowed instead of 1 hit before defiance reset.

In raids :
- Interrupt some boss’ skill (classic mmo mecanic)
- Push boss in a corner with knock back (or skilled use of fear) to trigger the next pattern (GW2 mecanic)

Boss fight pattern :
- Build a catapult
Use F to construct like what we got in WvW or grab a repair-kit and bring it to the trebuchet like sPvP
- Interrupt a skill that engage defiance-free window
Or another trigger but this one is classic
- Push the boss in the launcher of catapult
Use Crow Control effect like knockback. In other MMO, we kite boss. Here, we throw him.
- Launch the boss
Use F, world basic interaction

1) Make it long enough… either have it be an instance that can have our progress saved and stay open until explicitly reset so we can progress in it over time or have it be similar in length to TA Aetherpath, Arah, Fractals (which in my experience average about an hour, sometimes shorter or longer depending on the people)

2) Have it use unique mechanics for bosses. I really like the mechanics in TA Aetherpath, the boss fights in the living story (glints lair, awesome job).

3) Don’t just be about the bosses… have puzzles (ta aetherpath oozes, ta aetherpath electric floor room, Proxemics Lab etc.), mazes that are randomly generated if possible?

I know you said 3 but if I could infinitely list things I’d like…

4) Ambience and theme. Give the area a certain look/feel/sound… Each dungeon has it’s own look and feel, and these can compliment those of course.. going up against the flame legions central location or something.. and have the rewards (unique weapon/armor skins) reflect this.. would be cool.

I sort of stated this all before but I didn’t really present it in list form.

Accessibility
= make it accessible for lots of people
- for smaller groups (no need to be guild specific) from 5 to xx people
- for new and veteran players
- instanced, so it does not interfere with the rest of the game

Variability
= offer various options we can select from and some random aspects that will vary from time to time
- different goal options (selectable)
- different difficulty level (normal, hard mode) (selectable)
- various landscapes/ settings/ bosses (random)

Fun factor
- raids should be chosen to play for their fun factor
- fun to replay → no tedious or boring “tasks”
- no overdone difficulty (so the raids can only be done successfully by ‘elite players’), this will decrease frustration and increase fun for many players
- fair rewards

My top 3:

1) The fighting mechanics must to be entertaining and require use of the three roles that are currently in the game.

2) Fix the three roles that are currently in the game to be necessary. Especially the CC role.

3) Good rewards that make content almost constantly repeatable (unique weapons/armor skin, legendary armor & backpacks, legendary runes and sigils, legendary recipes, legendary pets, etc…

We need siege weapons and air ships!!

I aim to suggest something that does not categorize the game’s modes strictly and instead hybridizes them, as well as provides content that requires a high degree of coordination and teamwork to succeed in.

My proposal entails expanding on the concept of the Mists as a playground for the gods of Tyria. This method would enable many competitive and pseudo-competitive “raiding” formats to evolve without messing up the main story progression, or creating “you must be this tall to attend this ride” -feel for some players.

Each week, two gods are pitted against one another and want people to sign up for their side in the Mists. It’s possible to attend any number of rounds per day, however the bonus reward should be available only once per day. The player cap can be between 30 and 50 per side. This will allow people to queue for a “raid” solo, as a party of five, or even as a guild.

The landscape consists of a central area which is dominated by a ruined altar and a gateway to the domain of the gods. There are two themed citadels on the map, each with a dedicated shrine to a god, in ruins, and occupied by the (elite) minions of the rival god. Obviously the two teams of players are hostile to each other.

Furthermore, the map has large groups of (elite) minions of both gods as well as shrines to the gods. The objective of the players is to siege and cleanse their god’s citadel, and revive the guardian protector. While the guardian protector is alive, they will keep channeling to open a portal in the middle of the map. Successfully cleansing the shrines scattered on the map either activates it or converts it to your chosen god, and speeds up the portal channeling. Hostile NPCs from the gods’ factions will also try to retake their competitor’s citadel, necessitating defense and repairs. It should also be possible to besiege and slay the opposing team’s guardian protector to slow them down. Thus the tasks are centered around protecting the citadel, taking and holding the fortified shrines and hampering the enemy team where possible, all the while holding back the NPC faction as well.

When either team completes their channeling, the portal in the middle activates for that team and they can enter the final boss fight, which can be either god’s avatar in their own domain, randomly. Looting system maybe be similar to how the Fractal reward system works; i.e. a bonus chest with an ascended item once per day.

This type of game format may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it must be noted that it’s not a part of the main storyline, and thus nobody is forced to play to fully experience the game’s story. This has been a problem in certain other games with raids. It’s meant to be a competitive, teamwork-oriented game mode with some of the best sides of WvW and PvE hybridized together for fun and contest.

My thoughts, worries and proposals..

1) Raids in gw2 should get integrated into the game in a way that it will not affect the general game and how it has been developed and how it plays, that means be cautious about class balance and gw2 non trinity. I believe that the non trinity is great and fun, but it has pigeonholed the depth of tactics and communication that could exist otherwise.

2) Progression and Reward is a the reason people like raiding, the reason they get addicted to it. It should be linked with challenge and time investment but not exclude casuals and low skill players from playing the content.

My proposed solutions are according to the above..

1) introduce a new slot into the armour and weapons that we slot with gems which gives bonus active only inside the raid instances. Raiding needs an agro system. it produce better encounters with more variety and communication.
-Bunker/Tank gem -10% inc. dmg. +10% Inc heal + 10% agro generation
-dps gem +10%dmg -10% agro generation
-Support gem +10% heal -10% agro generation
Connect agro with highest toughness and damage done.
Have different agro templates for mobs, one target bunkers, one target squishes etc but let it be stable and always the same according to the template.
I believe you have already the technology to make those gems, using the whole day and night parameter, i think that you can create a new one only for the raid instances.

2) Defiance should be like it is or maybe a complete immunity. The suddenly when the raid boss does the big move that will wipe the raid make it so it will be removed so the raid group can interrupt that big move. That will produce communication about with the interrupts.

3) Increase the base attack speed of some mobs by a lot (don’t forget to decrease their damage) so they can’t be dodge tanked but make a dodge manta dory on their special attacks.

4) Increase toughness on the bosses and decrease their vitality, do so that it takes the same time to kill but will make conditions better.

5) Raid should be instanced and easily accessible. no pre quest, maybe guild unlocks.

6) Set max number (10?) and balanced around the max number but have a scaling if you can do it with less people. Balance around a certain composition of bunkers support and damage dealers.

7) Raids should need lvl80 exotic gear (which will only also have those gems i talked before) and reward ascendant gear. Unique skins and titles. Should have random reward for the joy of the moment but also a reward track like the pvp tracks.

8) Raids should have at least an entry difficulty for the casuals and low skill players and then increase for the hardcore and skilled players. I believe a system like fractals have with instabilities. Better raid level better and more reward maybe connect it with that legendary armor?

I think that my proposals don’t interfere with the rest of the game but they produce a complete new PVE “competitive” and rewarding state.

Thank you for reading this, and sorry for my bad english.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This CDI will move on to the proposal stage tomorrow so get your top three in please folks.

Chris

My Proposal on Raids:
Rewards: Special Raid Tokens to get Exclusive New legendary Armor pieces.
7 Pieces of Heavy, Light, and Medium Legendary Armors.

Instance Content.
Maximum player: 10
Complete Stage Objectives under 10 minutes.
15 Stages total.

If players fail to complete Stage Objectives within Time Limit, all players get kicked out of the instant.

Skill 1 is the only Skill available when you enter the first Stage.

Every time you complete a Stage, the remaining time left gets added to the next Stage and you unlock another skill on your skill bar until you have 15 Skills Available.

Boss fight awaits you at the final Stage with 100% guarantee Raid Token and 1% Legendary drop rate.

Example of Stages:
Objective: Activate 3 Orbs to open the Mystic Elevator. The Elevator takes you up to the next Stage.

5 Players explore a very narrow path. At the end of the path, there are 3 new paths to take. 5 Players go to the Left Path. 2 players takes 2nd path, and 3 players takes the 3rd path.

Team (A) with 5 players explore the Dungeon while Team (B) with 5 players enters the Control rooms & map room.

Team (A)’s Goal:
Fight mobs, Jumping Puzzles, solve Riddles, and activate the 3 Orbs.

Team (B)’s Goal:
Player 6 – Looks at Radar/Map. He can see Everything including enemy waves.
Player 7 – Activates Doors. (When a set of Door is open another set of door is closed)
Player 8 – Deactivates Traps & Reactivates Traps. (When a set of trap is deactivated, another set is activated)
Player 9 & 10 Must protect Players 6-8 from enemy waves who come to attack them.

Stage #2
Objective – Rescue Motto
10 Minutes added to the remaining time you had left.

There are 10 Prison Cells. There are 4 Prison cells that would give you a random boon like some can unlock a skill slot for you or give you permanent Swiftness, protection, or Might. Each one of these cells will give 1 random player a permanent Harden Boon. While the other 5 cells would give you a curse, which could lock your skill slot you earned from previous stage or give you a permanent Cripple effect or chill effect or Vulnerability and even a trap which can immobilize you for the entire stage! Only 1 Cell has Motto in it. There are lots of traps and enemies that can kill you without those boons. You will be 1 shotted without Harden Boon which encourages players to break the first cell before advancing to Motto.

Once you break Motto Free, You must escort him safely away from enemy territory. If he dies the entire Raid Fails. No Redo.

All enemies including Bosses should NOT be immuned to control effects.
All players should coordinate ((Control)) skills while ((Supporting)) each other while contributing in dealing ((Damage)).

1) Make it accessible from everyone. I know this is a hard balance, but ALWAYS keep it in mind. Don’t make this a toxic elite mode, where only (supposed) best players can come. I’m all for a challenge, but it has to be reasonable. 3 Difficulty modes would help a lot.

2) Rewards. Even fractals and dungeons reward, while decent, get boring over time. Wvw rewards are definitely boring. Last thing you want is making super hard, but fun (at first) Raid, that then nobody does because bad rewards. It’s the nature of the mmo beast. No reward, loss of interest over time. So get some interesting new rewards! For instance New legendaries everyone anticipated so long would be appropriate here.

3) Every profession is viable in Raids. Make sure guard/warrior are not again in the lead for ‘overall raid viability’. Same goes for Necro in opposite way, they already kinda suck in dungeons atm, don’t make it worse in Raids.

Hey everyone. In my view, raids should be:

1) Rewarding: Raids should be rewarding and provide short, medium and long term rewards, so even players who can only log-in once or twice a week have something to show for completing a raid. Ideally, the rewards would be better than the ones from dungeon and fractals.

2) Replayable: One big issue I have with the current dungeons and fractals is that they’re not very replayable. After you complete a dungeon path or fractal, you’ve seen everything and the “mystery” is gone. Raids should be fun to replay over and over, the same way SPvP and WvW is. I think boss mechanics and events that change regularly would help.

3) Challenging: Raids should be like a puzzle that has to be solved, while also requiring a level of skill from players. They should test you as a player, the same way Liadri the Concealing Dark and the Mad King’s Clock Tower tested us. They should be difficult, but also available in some way to casual players so they can also enjoy them.

And that’s my contribution to this CDI.
Thank you!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This CDI will move on to the proposal stage tomorrow so get your top three in please folks.

Chris

You can find my top three in the trashcan and in some quotes on page 32, ’cos you forgot to delete them

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This CDI will move on to the proposal stage tomorrow so get your top three in please folks.

Chris

With all respect, I don’t think we can put together a proposal that accurately represents what the community is looking for without first having the logistics conversation we touched on earlier in this thread -

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Let’s allow for more foundational discussion and then we can discuss two raid group sizes in terms of pros and cons.

Does that sound ok?

Chris

This is even more evident when you look back through the “top three” posts and note how many times people reference flexibility, accessibility and even scaling (despite being told it was set numbers). So this definitely isnt just one person (me) making noise. It is something that needs to be a part of any proposal.

I get that you are opposed to scaling (even though, if done in a limited fashion, I think it could work). That is why I proposed a different model – developing raids sizes of 8 and 12 concurrently. That way, as long as you have a minimum of 8, you would never need to find more than 3 people to fill out a raid group.

So the pros and cons of two raid group sizes:

The Pros

• People aren’t left out of organized raid nights because of logistics (math)
• Raids are accessible to everyone – the only limiting factor becomes skill.
• In line with the early vision of the game – fun, friendly environment where friends can play together.

The Cons

• Longer development cycles
• Makes it (VERY slightly) harder to balance difficult fights in the development phase

To put it simply, the pros outweigh the cons. Accessibility should be more important than both logistics and development time. If it takes you a month or two longer to add in a second size to accommodate the player base better, then I think many of us would GLADLY wait that time. Do it right the first time – give us raids, but give us ALL raids.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Blaeys.3102:

So if I have a raid night where i have two groups – one of 15 and the other with the remaining 8 (as an example), they are going to have the same chances to beat the encounters if the players involved are at roughly the same skill level?

If that is true, then I’m happy. That would be putting skill at a more important level than numbers.

So this is a very clever question which does need to be answered regardless of raid number sets. If it’s ok though let’s discuss it when we get to raid number set discussions.

Chris

This is another issue we haven’t addressed (even though 2 raid sizes would address it well).

I know this takes away from the 3-point post, but it is something we agreed to readdress prior to the proposal phase.

I would hate to see raid development move forward and turn into something that feels, not just unfriendly, but completely different from the rest of the game. You have a dedicated player base that LOVES this game (with me at the very top of the list). Raiding can be done – but it needs to be done in the same spirit with which you’ve approached the game as a whole.

1) Split the party! Avoid single-encounter design whenever possible, focus on multiple parallel fights. Allows better scaling, alleviates many issues with large group combat, capitalizes on the strengths of GW2 combat.

2) Accessibility. High-end difficulty will probably require a guild as organizational structure, so make sure the respective tools for that are present, concerning map-/instance management. Ideally the design has a ‘backdoor’ to allow access for less-skilled/organized players outside of guilds to play the raid content too, albeit without the prestigious rewards.

3) Reevaluate non-gear/gold based rewards. Titles, Rankings, guild perks, server perks. Consider rewards that can be reissued and that aren’t ‘succeed once, done forever’ type of deals. Handwaving example: beat ‘easy’ raid: 30% waypoint cost reduction for a week, beat ‘hard’ raid: 70% reduction, beat ‘hard’ raid with special hardcore condition: free WPs and special title.

Blaeys.3102:

To put it simply, the pros outweigh the cons. Accessibility should be more important than both logistics and development time. If it takes you a month or two longer to add in a second size to accommodate the player base better, then I think many of us would GLADLY wait that time. Do it right the first time – give us raids, but give us ALL raids.

To be honest, I also think many of us would hate to wait another 2 months before getting raids, just so there could be more than one size to choose from..

I have every faith in ANet to know their own capabilities when it comes to development and development time, and I’m sure they are well aware of the wishes from part of the community for broad accessibility to the raids.
Now lets make the proposal focus on the core parts of the raids, which should be the design, and then let ANet’s development team focus on whether or not it will be worth the (balancing and development) time to make several sizes or scaling raids..

Symph.8407:

Blaeys.3102:

To put it simply, the pros outweigh the cons. Accessibility should be more important than both logistics and development time. If it takes you a month or two longer to add in a second size to accommodate the player base better, then I think many of us would GLADLY wait that time. Do it right the first time – give us raids, but give us ALL raids.

To be honest, I also think many of us would hate to wait another 2 months before getting raids, just so there could be more than one size to choose from..

I have every faith in ANet to know their own capabilities when it comes to development and development time, and I’m sure they are well aware of the wishes from part of the community for broad accessibility to the raids.
Now lets make the proposal focus on the core parts of the raids, which should be the design, and then let ANet’s development team focus on whether or not it will be worth the (balancing and development) time to make several sizes or scaling raids..

I understand the need to move forward, but, imo, this would be akin to building rooms without first agreeing on a floorplan.

The content of the raid is dependent on the context of the raid – in other words, a scalable raid would be developed differently than a set size raid. The same is true, to a lesser degree with multiple sized raids. That factor would need to be considered at the start of the process – not the end (which is why the mechanics conversation has veered in so many different and, often, conflicting, directions).

We suspended discussion of this topic early in this thread because Chris assured it would be readdressed prior to moving to the next phase (even though others kept bringing it up). I realize the CDI was brought to an early halt due to other infighting, but that doesnt mean this isnt still an issue people care about. It still deserves attention and discussion (especially since the people involved have gone out of their way to remain polite, productive and accommodating to the CDI process in anticipation of this discussion).

How raids are formed and how exclusive/inclusive they are is probably one of (if not the) most important elements that people care about. Content can (and should) vary greatly within the model they decide to go with, but the processes and accessibility model they choose to build raids upon will be the first decision they have to make (and is something we want to collaborate on).

I do not want to slow the conversation or process – I just want to make sure it is truly collaborative and doesnt move forward with assumptions that many still have significant issue with (while there is still room for collaboration).

Blaeys.3102:

The content of the raid is dependent on the context of the raid – in other words, a scalable raid would be developed differently than a set size raid. The same is true, to a lesser degree with multiple sized raids. That factor would need to be considered at the start of the process – not the end (which is why the mechanics conversation has veered in so many different and, often, conflicting, directions).
..
How raids are formed and how exclusive/inclusive they are is probably one of (if not the) most important elements that people care about. Content can (and should) vary greatly within the model they decide to go with, but the processes and accessibility model they choose to build raids upon will be the first decision they have to make (and is something we want to collaborate on).

I still don’t really see scalable as a working solution, I think (with my extremely limited knowledge) that it would simply be too difficult to balance.

But, what I meant was: you have voiced your concern for accessibility with fixed size raids (or just one size), and I’m sure the devs have read that concern.
To me, that’s all there is to do on that matter. I have no expertise in game development, I don’t know if you have, but I’m sure the devs have a much better idea of what will work and what will not, when it comes to this part of the raid discussion. That’s why I think it’s much more important to talk about the design of the raids, and bring up interesting/cool/etc. ideas, than it is to talk about the size, which we (I assume) haven’t got the expertise to properly comment on anyways.

I agree that raid content should vary as much as possible between different raids, but I also think that the most important thing about a raid is the encounter(s). I think it’s so much more important that the devs focus on making the encounters really amazing, and then they can tune each raid to 8, 10, 15 (not more) players individually for all I care. I (and my guild) will manage to get everyone in, even if it means taking turns. The quality of the encounters will always have the highest importance.

Symph.8407:

But, what I meant was: you have voiced your concern for accessibility with fixed size raids (or just one size), and I’m sure the devs have read that concern.

I really dont want to get involved in a back and forth, but the topic has not been addressed in full – something that even the developers agreed about when they said it would be tabled until after the mechanics discussion.

If the idea of scaling and/or multiple raid sizes is included – at least as an option – in the proposal Chris references, then I agree its okay to move to the next phase.

Otherwise, the conversation is needed – focused on topics such as which mechanics would/wouldnt work with flexible raid sizes, what compromises would they need to make to with the up-to-15 model Chris proposed, how would multiple raid sizes effect development time, etc.

We tried to address the topic early on only to be asked to wait, which we have done. Now that we’ve waited, I think the “just let it drop now” response just doesn’t cut it.

I am not the only one who feels that way – just look back through the “3 points” posts at the number of times scaling and accessibility are brought up. It deserves to be part of the consideration – if not part of the conversation.

I apologize for the multiple posts. I hope everyone can see that I am trying to be as respectful and productive as possible. I believe in open honest discussion and collaboration and love that Anet chose to offer the opportunity to do so.

Definitely in favor of Anet developing the raid with a set size group in mind. If your guild doesn’t have enough people, then you do what guilds already do now, you get the remaining players you need from the lfg. Put in your lfg description that anyone joining needs to be experienced and needs to join you on ts3 (or whatever else you use). If they don’t cooperate then you can always kick them and get someone else.

1. instances
2. difficult / very difficult
3. inplemented before 2017

1: Rewards. Once you get all the unique items provided by one event, there’s pretty much no need to do it again, since you got them all you were probably at a point where you were farming it like a bot rather than enjoying it. We’ll need something to keep doing it, gold and useful materials are one of the way to go, but you could also put something like pvp tracks and/or special raid skills/traits/gear (like wvw) that could be tied with levels of difficulty (like fractal).

2: Diversity. Don’t fall into the “DPS the kitten out of this” gameplay. You can create whatever siege weapon, bundle or transformation you want, use this to provide players with unique experiences. Also raid doesn’t mean boss kill, it could be a split event mission, escort NPC, repel the giant monster and so on. Teamwork and timings should be the priority over DPS.

3: Levels of difficulty. As said above, allow players to choose their level of difficulty for greater rewards. The most important part would be not to just put in there increased stats, but introduce new skills, change the pattern of attacks or make it random, add waves of minions, etc… Each level of difficulty should make the encounter totally different than the one before, to the surprise of the players.

1. Hard Mode
2. LFG “Raid” tab
3. Scalable rewards (5-24 party sizes, the more in your party, the less rewarding the drops are)

Symph.8407:

Blaeys.3102:

The content of the raid is dependent on the context of the raid – in other words, a scalable raid would be developed differently than a set size raid. The same is true, to a lesser degree with multiple sized raids. That factor would need to be considered at the start of the process – not the end (which is why the mechanics conversation has veered in so many different and, often, conflicting, directions).
..
How raids are formed and how exclusive/inclusive they are is probably one of (if not the) most important elements that people care about. Content can (and should) vary greatly within the model they decide to go with, but the processes and accessibility model they choose to build raids upon will be the first decision they have to make (and is something we want to collaborate on).

I still don’t really see scalable as a working solution, I think (with my extremely limited knowledge) that it would simply be too difficult to balance.

But, what I meant was: you have voiced your concern for accessibility with fixed size raids (or just one size), and I’m sure the devs have read that concern.
To me, that’s all there is to do on that matter. I have no expertise in game development, I don’t know if you have, but I’m sure the devs have a much better idea of what will work and what will not, when it comes to this part of the raid discussion. That’s why I think it’s much more important to talk about the design of the raids, and bring up interesting/cool/etc. ideas, than it is to talk about the size, which we (I assume) haven’t got the expertise to properly comment on anyways.

I agree that raid content should vary as much as possible between different raids, but I also think that the most important thing about a raid is the encounter(s). I think it’s so much more important that the devs focus on making the encounters really amazing, and then they can tune each raid to 8, 10, 15 (not more) players individually for all I care. I (and my guild) will manage to get everyone in, even if it means taking turns. The quality of the encounters will always have the highest importance.

Since we’re digging this topic up again.

One of my arguments for scaling was that you don’t have to look at flexible Raid sizes as a “How do we make every party size the same difficulty?” and can look at it as “How do you ensure the Raid is never easy at any scaling level but doable at most levels?” which basically means you have a set difficulty and size in mind but you still add some scaling mechanics to make other sizes “possible” even if it’s not “optimized”.

thinks like kick abuse [especially when the reward is great and the run is long]
possibly conflicts between players /classes
boon accessibly now its limited to 5 ppl that may will do pressure on certain classes

ingame ts communication
more ways to mark enemys

could special roles be welcome lets say a necro is asked to kite and run with full normad in a certain fight?

anyway we all love each other but i hope those troubles be in mind before building a fun raid

guardian.6489:

Since we’re digging this topic up again.

One of my arguments for scaling was that you don’t have to look at flexible Raid sizes as a “How do we make every party size the same difficulty?” and can look at it as “How do you ensure the Raid is never easy at any scaling level but doable at most levels?” which basically means you have a set difficulty and size in mind but you still add some scaling mechanics to make other sizes “possible” even if it’s not “optimized”.

So, if Im understanding right, what youre saying is yes, implement typical scaling to a fight in terms of how much health the boss has, number of adds, etc – but at the same time design encounter mechanics based on an optimally sized group (being careful to make sure the fight isnt impossible because of some mechanic that required a larger number of people).

So, as an example, optimize mechanics based around having 16 people, but allow the boss’s health (and possibly number of adds) to scale down to groups of 8.

If they can make that work, I think it is the ideal solution. It eliminates all concerns regarding group size, retains the difficulty level people are looking for (by emphasizing strategy and coordination instead of just pure boss health) and allows for interesting fight design. With the right fight design, the challenging mechanics are what will set raiding apart – not some arbitrary group size designed to create the illusion of difficulty (by putting the primary emphasis on calculated DPS versus a set health pools and enrage mechanics – the way other raiding games do).

To add a level to this idea, they could easily add in achievements for completing the content at different group sizes (8, 12 and 16 people for example), adding greater incentive to go back and experience the content with different sized groups.

This is definitely the direction and kind of idea I want to discuss.

It emphasizes challenge over numbers and gives more socially oriented guilds the flexibility they need to retain that sense of community and teamwork that currently allows GW2 to shine above other games.

I hope we can raid other guilds’ guild halls.

Blaeys.3102:

We tried to address the topic early on only to be asked to wait, which we have done. Now that we’ve waited, I think the “just let it drop now” response just doesn’t cut it.

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not telling you to drop it. I’m just saying that I think voicing it was enough. I don’t think we as players really have anything to contribute in terms of whether or not it will work, or what areas of raids encounters it might affect in better or worse ways. That’s something the devs have knowledge about, and therefore I think we should leave it to them, now that the point has been voiced.
No need for us to try making solutions in fields we have no expertise in. Ideas is what we could contribute, and we have.