Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

The problem isn’t the writing, it’s the way that the writing is implemented…

…For example, the writing in personal stories in this game is based on a game instance that is universal across all professions. We have to have this finished up in exactly 1 more story so we can move onto the next one. It has to contain this element and that element. It has to be over in this amount of time.

I would disagree a little bit, but maybe I’m wrong. Here are my thoughts on it: while yes, some story arc bits have to be squished in the confines of a game, and each arc has to be cut short in so many story segments, that doesn’t excuse poorly written dialogue, cliche lines, irritating characters, or flat, uninspiring story arcs.

Tybalt was around for two entire story arcs, but he was a horrible character that not only went against what his entire race and order was about, but also was just annoying. The proof that this can be done right is in Sieran. Although she is inconsistent from time to time, I don’t really mind it, because I like who she is as a character. And she has the exact same amount of face time as Tybalt.

And maybe if they had been given more time to flesh out Tybalt he would have been better. But they put themselves in that box by cutting all of the order guides short at Claw Island.

And while yes, cliches are a nice crutch because they use a commonly established idea as a base that the audience understands, like the general at Claw Island being the cliche over confident commander. But it would have been better, and made it more interesting, if he had been something different. This is proved by the character of Gavin in the White Stag arc, who, as the cliche demands, be all out evil due to his association with the Nightmare Court. But he is honorable and almost kind, and dies the most significant death of the game, in my mind.

And story arcs don’t have to be drab: the story arc for the charr with a Loyal Soldier for a sire I felt was kind of dull. It didn’t really have a significance because it didn’t have any significance outside of my characters own personal gain. And in the end, I didn’t even get the treasure that my sire hid! It was just a hypothetical treasure, so I didn’t even benefit from it that way. Compare this to the White Stag arc, again. Although what the White Stag is and how it is a weapon is never explained, the character of Gavin and Caithe’s questionable actions in the arc made it memorable and meaningful.

So I tend to disagree with you, only because I know that they are capable of doing it right. Unfortunately, it’s rather rare, which is why I’ve had to cite the White Stag arc so many times in all of my posts.

EDIT:
“I’m obviously vocal about the writing being beyond terrible, but calling for someone to be fired is just wrong. People have families, mortgages. You don’t know the reason why it’s awful, just that it is. You don’t know that this person doesn’t have another valuable skillset to offer. Remember it’s a person you’re talking about. Someone’s relative. Someone’s friend. Someone’s Co-Worker that they like and eat lunch with.”

Thank you for being aware. I do feel that sometimes people get a little bit caught up in the whole roasting thing and need to focus on offering critique instead of just being critical.

Personally for me, the biggest issue with the script/voice acting, is the pace of conversation.

The actual script could be tightened up a bit and different words used to give characters different levels of depth and flare, but the biggest issue is how the voice acting plays off in actual game experience.

Much of the in game conversation is choppy due to coding cues to trigger a characters voice. Lag and poor timing create choppy conversations which kill the feel.

Speaking a line of acting is exactly like telling a joke. If the comedic timing and pace of word is off, then it looses a lot of its humor. So when there is too short of a delay or too long of a delay in characters talking to you or each other, or a separation from one paragraph of text to the next when the character is speaking, then it kills your immersion in them actually acting.

As far as the voice actors themselves, people have different opinions about what the characters should sound like. This is why written text is almost more powerful than spoken text. Each person can “hear” it in a way that pleases them and makes sense personally.

So there are technical and personal issues when “hearing” the voice acting.

As far as the story line itself, I actually find it interesting and compelling as far as ideas and how the world is evolving. The cities interact with each other and the events in the world are making impacts as the game progresses.

The personal story I am ok with, because I’m not so needy in the terms of having to have the story revolve around me. I understand that from a developer point of view it can be ridiculous to have every single player that ever logs in be the hero of the world.

So they took a step back and made you a hero by proxy. A catalyst? to greatness. Also they call you “slayer” or hero" constantly because it is voice acting, and the only feasible way to indicate that they are talking to the player without using the millions of names that we come up with is to give us a title to refer to.

If you take a step back, a lot of what is done makes a lot of sense. I’m not saying they couldn’t have done it better, but I am saying many are not giving credit where credit is due.

As far as for more serious story telling. Yes there is a lot of humor and there is still a lot of grit in this world. This is the first MMO in a long time that I actually laughed out loud at, so I appreciate the humor. I also am interested in the darker aspects and the greater threats out there. This new living story arch with the queens speech being defaced is making for some interesting story telling which will tie back in the separatists of charr and human factions that we have seen all over.

As I said, there is a lot of good story here, they are scattered maybe, but it is there. I have seen MUCH worse.

The other games that have been referenced such as from bio shock, mass effect, and elder scrolls, or what ever else is compared to. Those are single player games that are allowed to revolve around a single player, to tie in better interaction with one person.

This is trying to be all inclusive to everyone that players in a multi user world…..and I didn’t find t hose other games that deep and interesting personally. I think after a while you start to see how every story/movie/game rips off things we have seen in the past. This is old man talk but “nothing is original anymore and everything sucks!”

So the older you are, the less you like new things, because it contrasts with the things you originally experienced and developed a fondness for :p

Lokki.1092:

Just to toss this out here… Guild wars was released in 2005 when the NAAL’s last statistical testing put the American public at a 8-9th grade reading comprehension level.

Since then we have seen numbers as low as (stupid censoring) 5th grade level, most analysis NAAL included putting us at 6-7th grade level. that is a huge difference. Perhaps its not laziness on Anet’s part?

It is possible the writing in video games is getting worse just like the reading level of recent best selling books have been going down, and for the same reasons. Just catering to the public.

That explains a lot concerning the amount of censorship on these forums. I see kitten so much I often wonder if it was actual profanity being used or if it was no no letters standing next to each other, or if it was really just a kitten. I wish Anet wasn’t trying to make this game as big as WoW considering mature players are suffering from the game being mostly PG rated, which shows in the story, but to be fair it is mostly because the quantity of the branching story diminishes it’s quality especially when it’s catering to the PG rated crowd.

Sometimes I think if only the storyline would drop an F bomb the writings would be so much less restrictive in the writing process.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Vayne.8563:

The problem isn’t the writing, it’s the way that the writing is implemented…

…For example, the writing in personal stories in this game is based on a game instance that is universal across all professions. We have to have this finished up in exactly 1 more story so we can move onto the next one. It has to contain this element and that element. It has to be over in this amount of time.

I would disagree a little bit, but maybe I’m wrong. Here are my thoughts on it: while yes, some story arc bits have to be squished in the confines of a game, and each arc has to be cut short in so many story segments, that doesn’t excuse poorly written dialogue, cliche lines, irritating characters, or flat, uninspiring story arcs.

Tybalt was around for two entire story arcs, but he was a horrible character that not only went against what his entire race and order was about, but also was just annoying. The proof that this can be done right is in Sieran. Although she is inconsistent from time to time, I don’t really mind it, because I like who she is as a character. And she has the exact same amount of face time as Tybalt.

And maybe if they had been given more time to flesh out Tybalt he would have been better. But they put themselves in that box by cutting all of the order guides short at Claw Island.

And while yes, cliches are a nice crutch because they use a commonly established idea as a base that the audience understands, like the general at Claw Island being the cliche over confident commander. But it would have been better, and made it more interesting, if he had been something different. This is proved by the character of Gavin in the White Stag arc, who, as the cliche demands, be all out evil due to his association with the Nightmare Court. But he is honorable and almost kind, and dies the most significant death of the game, in my mind.

And story arcs don’t have to be drab: the story arc for the charr with a Loyal Soldier for a sire I felt was kind of dull. It didn’t really have a significance because it didn’t have any significance outside of my characters own personal gain. And in the end, I didn’t even get the treasure that my sire hid! It was just a hypothetical treasure, so I didn’t even benefit from it that way. Compare this to the White Stag arc, again. Although what the White Stag is and how it is a weapon is never explained, the character of Gavin and Caithe’s questionable actions in the arc made it memorable and meaningful.

So I tend to disagree with you, only because I know that they are capable of doing it right. Unfortunately, it’s rather rare, which is why I’ve had to cite the White Stag arc so many times in all of my posts.

EDIT:
“I’m obviously vocal about the writing being beyond terrible, but calling for someone to be fired is just wrong. People have families, mortgages. You don’t know the reason why it’s awful, just that it is. You don’t know that this person doesn’t have another valuable skillset to offer. Remember it’s a person you’re talking about. Someone’s relative. Someone’s friend. Someone’s Co-Worker that they like and eat lunch with.”

Thank you for being aware. I do feel that sometimes people get a little bit caught up in the whole roasting thing and need to focus on offering critique instead of just being critical.

Maybe I’m not being clear here. The writing is done by writers. The game design, including mission structure, was NOT being done by writers. The writers were given very specific task and told what to write. In that particular case, the only real way to fix it is to let the writers design the quests/missions which wasn’t done here.

I can tell this by how things are done. For example, once the game designers decided that the mentor character in your order has to die at level 30 at Claw Island, the writers have to make that death scene a death scene and within that context, they did okay.

The problem I have with is is that everywhere else I can just rez someone. Why can’t these characters be rezzed? Rezzing is part of the lore and the game. But I can’t rez specific people. That just gauls me.

Writers in games are given very specific things to write. They can’t write “more or longer”. They have a lot of write.

And the best writing often gets vetoed if it doesn’t fit the game designer’s needs. It’s just not so easy to blame the actual writing. The entire way the story was designed would need to be addressed.

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

A specific, example.

Write something where the main character has to choose between an orphanage and a hospital being destroyed by bandits. These are your characters. This is where the OP needs to end up. One of these things has to happen.

I’m not so sure the writers are at fault here.

Wouldn’t it have been the writers choice for it to be an orphanage and hospital? I would think that the game world in the personal story would be created around what the writers… write.

I mean, the writers are the ones that chose “These are your characters. This is where the OP needs to end up. One of these things has to happen”, right?

It really wouldn’t be. If you look at the personal stories, each of them has to have specific gameplay requirements. I’m relatively sure writers didn’t design the personal stories, but game makers did, and the writers were asked to fill in the middle.

It may be that writers came up with some ideas for the personal story but it’s complete clear to me that gameplay trumps writing in the personal story. It’s constrained by what has to happen and when it has to end.

I wasn’t sure how that is normally handled. Thanks for explaining.

Vayne.8563:

Tai Kratos.3247:

Vayne.8563:

The problem isn’t the writing, it’s the way that the writing is implemented…

…For example, the writing in personal stories in this game is based on a game instance that is universal across all professions. We have to have this finished up in exactly 1 more story so we can move onto the next one. It has to contain this element and that element. It has to be over in this amount of time.

~snip~

So I tend to disagree with you, only because I know that they are capable of doing it right. Unfortunately, it’s rather rare, which is why I’ve had to cite the White Stag arc so many times in all of my posts.

EDIT:
“I’m obviously vocal about the writing being beyond terrible, but calling for someone to be fired is just wrong. People have families, mortgages. You don’t know the reason why it’s awful, just that it is. You don’t know that this person doesn’t have another valuable skillset to offer. Remember it’s a person you’re talking about. Someone’s relative. Someone’s friend. Someone’s Co-Worker that they like and eat lunch with.”

Thank you for being aware. I do feel that sometimes people get a little bit caught up in the whole roasting thing and need to focus on offering critique instead of just being critical.

Maybe I’m not being clear here. The writing is done by writers. The game design, including mission structure, was NOT being done by writers. The writers were given very specific task and told what to write. In that particular case, the only real way to fix it is to let the writers design the quests/missions which wasn’t done here.

I can tell this by how things are done. For example, once the game designers decided that the mentor character in your order has to die at level 30 at Claw Island, the writers have to make that death scene a death scene and within that context, they did okay.

The problem I have with is is that everywhere else I can just rez someone. Why can’t these characters be rezzed? Rezzing is part of the lore and the game. But I can’t rez specific people. That just gauls me.

Writers in games are given very specific things to write. They can’t write “more or longer”. They have a lot of write.

And the best writing often gets vetoed if it doesn’t fit the game designer’s needs. It’s just not so easy to blame the actual writing. The entire way the story was designed would need to be addressed.

We can’t honestly say how they’re doing things at ArenaNet without being a part of the company. I’d advise against trying to assert that any one way is exactly how they’re doing it.

For all we know, it’s an even balance, where at times one takes priority over the others, like the story takes a backseat to some of the mini-games, while the design takes a backseat to some of the cutscenes, and so on. Ignoring all that, I think Tai understood, and was just honing in on the details. The design guys might very well tell them how it should be written to fit within gameplay, but that doesn’t excuse the content of it being of low quality.

Unleashed.6195:

Caramel Ham.4891:

Whomever wrote the story should be fired, and whomever approved such an abomination should be ashamed.

I’m obviously vocal about the writing being beyond terrible, but calling for someone to be fired is just wrong. People have families, mortgages. You don’t know the reason why it’s awful, just that it is. You don’t know that this person doesn’t have another valuable skillset to offer. Remember it’s a person you’re talking about. Someone’s relative. Someone’s friend. Someone’s Co-Worker that they like and eat lunch with.

It may have been a bit harsh but just at this guy/girl has a family, mortgages, etc. There are many, who love the lore of GW universe, who also have bills to pay, who would love to take his/her job and would have done a better job at it.

For example the OP obviously knows something about story telling and how to make it better. Im not saying he would like to work at Anet, but its just a simple example. Another example is JK Rowling who was unemployed while she wrote the Harry Potter series. So im pretty sure there are a lot of unemployed people who are better than Anets writer who would love to take the job. This is all conjecture ofc. We don’t know what went on behind the scenes.

Ofc, this is just a web post and in no way will Anet fire their writer by taking a random persons advice. Though obviously there was a big problem happening when the story was conceived. Whether that was because the higher ups wanted something completely different from what the writer wanted or the writer was crap; there was a problem. This thread, I hope makes Anet reevaluate what went wrong and make the changes to make it better in the future.

I suggest starting by getting rid of that awful two person marionette show.

Personally I think they also messed up the Norn. In Guild Wars 1 the Norn were sometimes funny, but often intimidating and mysterious.

In Guild Wars 2, they all seem to drink a lot, and boast. And that’s it. Drinking and boasting. They are reduced to cartoons. And that’s a shame, because Jora in GW1 was what gave the Norn some respect.

I agree with much of what the OP has to say except that I don’t really have an issue with the idea of one group of members of a given race being allies while another group comprised of members of the same race being foes.

The idea that making friends with one small group of a given race, lets say skrit, would make all members of that race my friends would be much poorer, conceptually, than what we have.

Unleashed.6195:

- Nearly everything about Trahearne’s story. From the line at Claw Island, “You’re a scholar, not a general, why should we trust you?!” to “You’ll find with unity that many impossible things can be accomplished” to his acting like a middle school child sending you out to ask for candid reactions from his generals so he can see if they “Like/Not Like” him. His lines. His motivation. His “stirring” speeches (which, by the way, for whatever reason the NPCs feel compelled to tell him were stirring speeches.).

I’m glad you raised this. The whole finding out if generals trust Trahearne was necessary due to him being a scholar and never been in any leadership role. However, it was done poorly. There should have been a series of missions devoted to the unease of his command, possbily including mutinies, as this could have helped his characterisation greatly and tbh, he needs it. He’s an NPC you spend a lot of time with, he shouldn’t be so one dimensional.

sinzer.4018:

The whole finding out if generals trust Trahearne was necessary due to him being a scholar and never been in any leadership role.

Which makes you not trust any general, organization, or individual who would trust him with the fate of civilization and life as we know it in Tyria. From an RP standpoint its almost impossible to take my own character seriously now that I know he is an idiot.

Caramel Ham.4891:

…Another example is JK Rowling who was unemployed while she wrote the Harry Potter series…

That is a good example of why the branching storyline does not work. Harry Potter was written linear with a beginning and an end. Gw1 was written linear with a beginning and an end. The branching storyline has too much focus, as Vanye said, on picking the writings that best meet the game developers needs, which is PG rated with quantity over quality.

If this game didn’t have a branching storyline the story would have been much better imo.

Ashen.2907:

sinzer.4018:

The whole finding out if generals trust Trahearne was necessary due to him being a scholar and never been in any leadership role.

Which makes you not trust any general, organization, or individual who would trust him with the fate of civilization and life as we know it in Tyria. From an RP standpoint its almost impossible to take my own character seriously now that I know he is an idiot.

I managed to get around this problem of not taking my character seriously because of Trahearne… Just pretend your character is using him. The pact couldn’t be officially led by anyone in the 3 orders because the other orders would be concerned of the vested interests. So, your character, knowing this, decides to use Trahearne as a public face (and also a scapegoat if things go sour) while you make the decisions and do everything. Afterall, all Trahearne actually does is give speeches and performs a little ritual.

I really think it narrows down to the writing and plot progression rather than the voice acting and the cutscene presentation (although more GW1 cutscenes would be better). GW1 had some of the worst voice acting, but had average writing and plot progression that made sense and captivated a good amount of players for most parts of the game.

Like many have said, the writing was too comical for the setting and the state of the plot. For a story with near-unbeatable primeval creatures unrivaled by GW1 antagonists, the tone of the writing was seriously lacking. This marginalizes the threat of the Elder Dragons and the task of defeating them.

The missions and plot progression didn’t present Zhaitan or secondary enemies well either. In GW1 you really felt engaged in a war for survival with the Charr, the White Mantle, the Mursaat, Margonites etc. This was mainly because almost every city and outpost was involved in major encroachments by our antagonists, inside and outside of missions. Every Ascalon mission was “Succeed or the Charr will overrun us… oh wait they just did anyways get back here ASAP.” In GW2 none of our major cities or outposts except for Divinity’s Reach (by Centaurs… kind of), Claw Island and Fort Trinity came under any serious attack. There’s no urgency in the fight against Zhaitan, meaning little tension building for the climax of the story.

A climax that never really happens for those who have played it all the way through. To be fair it’s hard to design an end mission around fighting a big bads that lore wise, are just too big and powerful for a small group, let alone an army of players to kill without a Superweapon/McGuffin taking the limelight.

So for the next chapter of GW2 Elder Dragon killing, Anet should:

- Change the tone of the story to a more serious, forboding narrative. Less comical relief and more tension building.

- Write in more desperate personal story missions. Have the Pact alliance falter and nearly fall apart in a realistic, non childish way akin to the Rurik/Adelbern split. Let the player characters have a lot more win/lose situations. Have more epic missions that consist of defending large population centres like racial cities.

- Build up fewer characters for longer periods of time so players have more emotional investment into said characters. It was hard to keep track of “who’s who” as we’re supposed to care about them succeeding or dieing.

- Improve the plot connectivity between Dungeons and Personal Story content, while possibly making Personal Story missions harder.

- Make sure that the end boss fights are a lot more involved than what we had with Zhaitan. Elder Dragon battles should be worthy of being the Personal Story’s climax.

- Player home instances need to reflect actions taken as stated by Anet early in GW2 development. That means new merchants, rewards, new/destroyed buildings, NPC with dialogue based on choices etc. This gives us a sense of accomplishment beyond just completing the story arc and reminds us that there even was a Personal Story to begin with.

Amstel Steel.2058:

Caramel Ham.4891:

…Another example is JK Rowling who was unemployed while she wrote the Harry Potter series…

That is a good example of why the branching storyline does not work. Harry Potter was written linear with a beginning and an end. Gw1 was written linear with a beginning and an end. The branching storyline has too much focus, as Vanye said, on picking the writings that best meet the game developers needs, which is PG rated with quantity over quality.

If this game didn’t have a branching storyline the story would have been much better imo.

I agree. but I just cant shake the feeling that they could have pulled it off a lot better even while keeping it PG rated.

For example. The personal story up to the point Treherne takes over is such a disappointment. They could have at least given the player a satisfying conclusion to the arc. Instead, the story builds up….then Treherne takes over.

There are 3 arcs to the main story for GW2.
1) Story based on race,
2) Story based on which order you chose.
3) Trehernes story.

As I mentioned, for #1, nothing interesting happens. When it feels like its building up to something, #2 takes over. #2 you run around here and there aimlessly then seems to want to try to pick up on claw island and Treherne takes over. Its a vicious cycle till the end and the ending doesn’t even feel epic nor does it feel like you achieved anything nor does it feel like the arc came to a close. I know they cant come to a complete “close” to the story but that’s what story arcs are for. You finish one and another comes.

I still remember the first and only time I finished the “killing Zhaitan” dungeon. I literally was like “that’s it?”

The main story telling tool, “the two person marionette” show, just compounded the problem. I feel like the voice acting was good enough if the story and the way they told the story, were up to par.

Caramel Ham.4891:

I still remember the first and only time I finished the “killing Zhaitan” dungeon. I literally was like “that’s it?”

I think that’s more to do with the terrible fight mechanics though. Never felt like i was in any real danger from Zhaitan… Risen chickens are stronger!

The silliness in GW1 was subtle. I also felt like I was a important heroes to the world. In GW2 I feel like I"m just a cutout. Much like White Knight Chronicles where your character is just that, simply a cutout standing in the background.

Guild Wars 2 does come off like it was written by people that don’t know the rest of the world beyond a bunch of internet memes.

That’s the biggest issue with the writing in GW2. Everything has to be a joke or a reference to something else. This is also why I’ve come to dislike shows like Family Guy, they don’t have original writing half the time they just rip off everyone else and poke fun at it. Boring.

Check out all the movie references from the Simpsons.
http://kotaku.com/every-single-movie-reference-in-the-first-ten-seasons-o-979183991
Nearly everytime in that show is ripped off. Just like nearly everything in GW2 has to be a joke of some sort.

sinzer.4018:

Caramel Ham.4891:

I still remember the first and only time I finished the “killing Zhaitan” dungeon. I literally was like “that’s it?”

I think that’s more to do with the terrible fight mechanics though. Never felt like i was in any real danger from Zhaitan… Risen chickens are stronger!

Definitely true.

But its like every piece forms a whole. In this case, every single little piece had problems thus made the overall story really bad.

Unleashed.6195:

The same with GW2’s story. I don’t need to be called “The Slayer” every minute. I don’t need someone who is supposedly a super heroine in the game’s lore to tell me how much I’ve taught her after she goes off throwing a fit over petty problems. I don’t believe that 40+ ships that can overwhelm a fortress brimming with elite soldiers, stone walls and war machines, by launching near endless waves of undead somehow can’t stomp all over Lion’s Arch because we found the power of friendship.

buu..buuu.but the power of friendship can overwhelm anything! what i want to know is why this fortress doesnt have a kittening gate on the beach to stop crap from getting in!

Anet needs to realize that killing off characters that people like is a bad thing when its done so soon…. Tibalt is a perfect example! hes awesome, and funny….and they kill him off way to quickly! why? what was the reason for that? its not needed at all. the GW1 storyline had its moments at least. in Cantha your mentor dies to make Shiro vulnerable. in Tyria, Prince Rurik dies fleeing Ascalon with his people and then comes back as a undead slave. where are those elements? there is no surprise to the story line in this game. i fully expected that almost every single person in the story would die.

Unleashed.6195:

The same with GW2’s story. I don’t need to be called “The Slayer” every minute. I don’t need someone who is supposedly a super heroine in the game’s lore to tell me how much I’ve taught her after she goes off throwing a fit over petty problems. I don’t believe that 40+ ships that can overwhelm a fortress brimming with elite soldiers, stone walls and war machines, by launching near endless waves of undead somehow can’t stomp all over Lion’s Arch because we found the power of friendship.

Where have you been man, Friendship is Magic!

shimmerless.4560:

This is a Charr from GW1:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Charr_ritualist.jpg

Part of my issue with GW2’s Charr is down to the odd choices in physiology and in-game appearance that have been made for them… the devs seem to have went backwards and taken the oldest Charr models (Prophecies-era Charr mobs), but that wasn’t enough… Charr in GW1 were tall, yes, but they also had strong posture, an air of feline grace and intelligence to them…

However the Charr in GW2 are even more hunched than their most basic predecessors; their arms dangle awkwardly from their lumpy refrigerator torsos, with a neck that arcs and bulges out over their heads unlike any known animal (tigers do not hunch like this). They squint to the point where their eyes are often indistinguishable pinpricks. Their heads jut out miles from their shoulders and they almost constantly look like they’re grinning about something. There’s no sense of dignity or menace at all really. I don’t fear or respect these beasts; I almost pity them. They’re downright QT pies.

So for me part of where the ball was dropped on the Charr comes down to just my distaste for their in-game models and animations, but that’s not all: the flavor and the lore of the species itself feels like it’s being pulled in three different directions, maybe a consequence of the game’s very broad target market. Are they goofy, are they threatening, are they mysterious or are they simple-minded? Are they wacky Starship Troopers (ala the whole Maverick buddy warband SeeD school sort of thing) or are they a sober and serious people with deep family ties? When it comes to the subject of Ascalon the Charr characters don’t react with roiling rage, or prejudice or feelings of regret; they’re just snarky and flippant. If they don’t treat the matter seriously then why should I? It’s not endearing, it’s just an opportunity for interesting writing wasted. Other instances where the subject material is taken as a joke by the writers include the Charr’s history (renouncing the false gods etc.), the total lack of introspection from the species about their fledgling, schizophrenic civilization (industrious and pensive on the one hand, barbaric and war-hungry on the other).

To get another sense of what could’ve been, take a look at the concept art that loads when you enter Fireheart Rise. The Charr models there look slender, graceful, somehow ferocious yet civilized, carrying this universal sense of hope, wonder and emotion. It’s perfect. (I also hold that the Grove’s concept art far outshines the in-game Sylvari models).

Different strokes, then.

I like the look of the new Charr. Looking at the pics of the old Charr, they look cool considering the limitations of that game, but they look more like human forms reskinned to look animal-like. Current Charr look nothing like a human.

Their bodies are somewhat bulkier in the neck area but it still resembles an animal with a strong neck/shoulders/back. They reserved, somewhat, the floor of thin and sleek for the female Charr to better differentiate them from the males. The females still look menacing and animalistic but also beautiful and strong. The males aren’t suppose to look ‘pretty’ but menacing but despite that, they still have expressive faces and the features you describe are wholly exaggerated considering you can adjust their features and pick their body build.

And funny how you describe their eyes. Just google searching charr, the old charr from GW1 have smaller beadier eyes. I mean, check out Pyre Fierceshot lolol

Watch some wooden potatoes it’s more intricate than you think. You have to seek out the lore. If there’s an issue, that’s it: you have to seek it out.

shimmerless.4560:

This is a Charr from GW1:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Charr_ritualist.jpg

Part of my issue with GW2’s Charr is down to the odd choices in physiology and in-game appearance that have been made for them… the devs seem to have went backwards and taken the oldest Charr models (Prophecies-era Charr mobs), but that wasn’t enough… Charr in GW1 were tall, yes, but they also had strong posture, an air of feline grace and intelligence to them…

However the Charr in GW2 are even more hunched than their most basic predecessors; their arms dangle awkwardly from their lumpy refrigerator torsos, with a neck that arcs and bulges out over their heads unlike any known animal (tigers do not hunch like this). They squint to the point where their eyes are often indistinguishable pinpricks. Their heads jut out miles from their shoulders and they almost constantly look like they’re grinning about something. There’s no sense of dignity or menace at all really. I don’t fear or respect these beasts; I almost pity them. They’re downright QT pies.

So for me part of where the ball was dropped on the Charr comes down to just my distaste for their in-game models and animations, but that’s not all: the flavor and the lore of the species itself feels like it’s being pulled in three different directions, maybe a consequence of the game’s very broad target market. Are they goofy, are they threatening, are they mysterious or are they simple-minded? Are they wacky Starship Troopers (ala the whole Maverick buddy warband SeeD school sort of thing) or are they a sober and serious people with deep family ties? When it comes to the subject of Ascalon the Charr characters don’t react with roiling rage, or prejudice or feelings of regret; they’re just snarky and flippant. If they don’t treat the matter seriously then why should I? It’s not endearing, it’s just an opportunity for interesting writing wasted. Other instances where the subject material is taken as a joke by the writers include the Charr’s history (renouncing the false gods etc.), the total lack of introspection from the species about their fledgling, schizophrenic civilization (industrious and pensive on the one hand, barbaric and war-hungry on the other).

To get another sense of what could’ve been, take a look at the concept art that loads when you enter Fireheart Rise. The Charr models there look slender, graceful, somehow ferocious yet civilized, carrying this universal sense of hope, wonder and emotion. It’s perfect. (I also hold that the Grove’s concept art far outshines the in-game Sylvari models).

er what about pyre? http://images.wikia.com/gw/images/8/88/Pyre_Fierceshot_Armor_Charr_Front.jpg

pyre was what got me wanting to play a charr though…i really didnt like the other models they looked to humanish for me to imagine them being a beast race, maybe some experiment gone wrong. hell they could be all 3 from what i have noticed, the blood legion are the threatening ones, the iron legion are serious and ash legion is more humorous than the others. you also need to remember that the charr in GW1 where forced out of their homeland, had their army destroyed at orr, and then where reforged under the flame legion and the new gods, only to have that turn out to not work as well, and finally in gw2 they get there homeland back and are strong once again. they dont need to be war hungry any more, they got the one thing they truly wanted back. and with the threat of the ghosts they cant just go around making war on everyone.

It’s not just the writing. It’s wackiness in general. For example:

The Battle of Claw Island. A ship full of Risen comes up out of the water. Evidently it has been traveling while submerged. So what do we do? We sink it. We don’t blow it up. We just hit it with a big flaming rock or something and sink it. It doesn’t explode. It doesn’t even catch fire – it just sinks. What, are the Risen going to drown?

Then, when we flee the island aboard the Lionguard ship, well… it’ a sailing vessel. Wind blowing against the sails is what makes it go. Now, sailing is a very complicated thing, true, and the wind doesn’t necessarily have to be coming from behind the ship to push it forward, but watch the cutscene: the wind filling the sails is blowing in one direction (toward the bow) while the wind making the flag flap dramatically is blowing in the opposite direction (toward the stern). That, or the ship is moving faster than the wind moving it. Plus it looks like it’s sinking…

It just struck me as wacky, but it’s not necessarily something most people would notice, especially considering the wackiness that preceded that scene (“I, all by myself, shall hold off this horde of Risen while you flee, because I, all by myself, am that awesome! Never mind all the Risen already on the other side of the big gate thingee that closes behind me, sealing my fate; yea, and never mind all the Risen already between you and the ship! This! Is! Tyriaaaaaa!”). So, in the immortal words of that ever popular fan-favorite, Trahearne, “Moving on.”

That charr with the cows and the catapult – that’s beyond wacky, that’s downright insane. I grew up on a farm. We had cows. Lots of other people in the area had cows. Most likely none of us would have hurled cattle at some distant target even if we’d had a catapult handy, but if someone had done it, everybody else would have stepped in and put a stop to it. Why? Because it’s freaking insane. Why do people raise cattle? Two reasons, primarily: for food and/or for profit. Either way, cows are $$$ on the hoof. Why would anyone (who wasn’t insane) quite literally throw all that food and/or money away? Our characters shouldn’t be betting on the cows, we should be putting a stop to that insanity. And forget about jumping into the catapult ourselves! That is even MOAR insane.

See also: stinky cows? Moody cows? Catching bugs to feed to cows? Put on a cow disguise and demonstrate techniques to cows?

So it’s not just the writing that imparts an inescapable sense of wackiness to the Tyria of GW2. It’s… the wacky Tyria of GW2 imparting an inescapable sense of wackiness to itself.

Looks like many of the posters above were expecting a different tone, but…. hello, just from the moment you enter the game for the first time you see that the game isn’t taking itself very seriously.

Its not just the personal story, all the environment is pretty tongue in cheek — you could logically be expecting something else, since the setting is the world in the brink of being destroyed by the elder dragons, yet the environment everywhere is by no means gloomy.

While perhaps a darker world would be a better match, I really came to appreciate the environment — and I needed to say it, many of us loved Tybalt, best NPC in the game by far.

So far in the LS, I am liking Rox, no idea if people bother reading the background story that ArenaNet publish about places and characters, but hers was interesting. (So were other entries)

Gmr Leon.1846:

Vayne.8563:

Tai Kratos.3247:

Vayne.8563:

The problem isn’t the writing, it’s the way that the writing is implemented…

…For example, the writing in personal stories in this game is based on a game instance that is universal across all professions. We have to have this finished up in exactly 1 more story so we can move onto the next one. It has to contain this element and that element. It has to be over in this amount of time.

~snip~

So I tend to disagree with you, only because I know that they are capable of doing it right. Unfortunately, it’s rather rare, which is why I’ve had to cite the White Stag arc so many times in all of my posts.

EDIT:
“I’m obviously vocal about the writing being beyond terrible, but calling for someone to be fired is just wrong. People have families, mortgages. You don’t know the reason why it’s awful, just that it is. You don’t know that this person doesn’t have another valuable skillset to offer. Remember it’s a person you’re talking about. Someone’s relative. Someone’s friend. Someone’s Co-Worker that they like and eat lunch with.”

Thank you for being aware. I do feel that sometimes people get a little bit caught up in the whole roasting thing and need to focus on offering critique instead of just being critical.

Maybe I’m not being clear here. The writing is done by writers. The game design, including mission structure, was NOT being done by writers. The writers were given very specific task and told what to write. In that particular case, the only real way to fix it is to let the writers design the quests/missions which wasn’t done here.

I can tell this by how things are done. For example, once the game designers decided that the mentor character in your order has to die at level 30 at Claw Island, the writers have to make that death scene a death scene and within that context, they did okay.

The problem I have with is is that everywhere else I can just rez someone. Why can’t these characters be rezzed? Rezzing is part of the lore and the game. But I can’t rez specific people. That just gauls me.

Writers in games are given very specific things to write. They can’t write “more or longer”. They have a lot of write.

And the best writing often gets vetoed if it doesn’t fit the game designer’s needs. It’s just not so easy to blame the actual writing. The entire way the story was designed would need to be addressed.

We can’t honestly say how they’re doing things at ArenaNet without being a part of the company. I’d advise against trying to assert that any one way is exactly how they’re doing it.

For all we know, it’s an even balance, where at times one takes priority over the others, like the story takes a backseat to some of the mini-games, while the design takes a backseat to some of the cutscenes, and so on. Ignoring all that, I think Tai understood, and was just honing in on the details. The design guys might very well tell them how it should be written to fit within gameplay, but that doesn’t excuse the content of it being of low quality.

I’ve read/seen interviews with the writing team. And I have experience from inside the field as well. I can say how it’s done. And logically writers wouldn’t write this stuff if they weren’t forced to…because the same team writes regional dialogue and personal story dialogue. I’m not sure how else you’d account for the discrepancy.

Tachenon.5270:

It’s not just the writing. It’s wackiness in general. For example:

The Battle of Claw Island. A ship full of Risen comes up out of the water. Evidently it has been traveling while submerged. So what do we do? We sink it. We don’t blow it up. We just hit it with a big flaming rock or something and sink it. It doesn’t explode. It doesn’t even catch fire – it just sinks. What, are the Risen going to drown?

Then, when we flee the island aboard the Lionguard ship, well… it’ a sailing vessel. Wind blowing against the sails is what makes it go. Now, sailing is a very complicated thing, true, and the wind doesn’t necessarily have to be coming from behind the ship to push it forward, but watch the cutscene: the wind filling the sails is blowing in one direction (toward the bow) while the wind making the flag flap dramatically is blowing in the opposite direction (toward the stern). That, or the ship is moving faster than the wind moving it. Plus it looks like it’s sinking…

It just struck me as wacky, but it’s not necessarily something most people would notice, especially considering the wackiness that preceded that scene (“I, all by myself, shall hold off this horde of Risen while you flee, because I, all by myself, am that awesome! Never mind all the Risen already on the other side of the big gate thingee that closes behind me, sealing my fate; yea, and never mind all the Risen already between you and the ship! This! Is! Tyriaaaaaa!”). So, in the immortal words of that ever popular fan-favorite, Trahearne, “Moving on.”

That charr with the cows and the catapult – that’s beyond wacky, that’s downright insane. I grew up on a farm. We had cows. Lots of other people in the area had cows. Most likely none of us would have hurled cattle at some distant target even if we’d had a catapult handy, but if someone had done it, everybody else would have stepped in and put a stop to it. Why? Because it’s freaking insane. Why do people raise cattle? Two reasons, primarily: for food and/or for profit. Either way, cows are $$$ on the hoof. Why would anyone (who wasn’t insane) quite literally throw all that food and/or money away? Our characters shouldn’t be betting on the cows, we should be putting a stop to that insanity. And forget about jumping into the catapult ourselves! That is even MOAR insane.

See also: stinky cows? Moody cows? Catching bugs to feed to cows? Put on a cow disguise and demonstrate techniques to cows?

So it’s not just the writing that imparts an inescapable sense of wackiness to the Tyria of GW2. It’s… the wacky Tyria of GW2 imparting an inescapable sense of wackiness to itself.

In the case of sinking the ship, it works, because they’re using siege weapons to hurl undead over the walls. But if that ship is sunk, then they can’t very well hurl undead over the walls from under water. It gives us a chance to clean up the undead there without further reinforcements coming. I don’t have a problem with this at all.

The ship sails thing, while I agree is annoying, has nothing at all to do with writing.

It seems like you’re making a post about one point, and then trying to find ways to justify it…but some of the stuff you’re complaining about here isn’t actually writing.

Edit: As for the silliness…well I do remember a quest from Guild Wars 1 where I had to find ears for an Asura, because his ears werent’ big enough to impress the females. I found a plant with leaves that looked like Asura ears, so he could get dates. Pretty silly if I don’t say so myself. There was plenty of little silly bits in Guild Wars 1 as well.

besides some flat dialog there are also things that really make my teeth grin… although there is not a solution to those things other than eliminate it from the story.
examples: the battle of claw island part 1, you escape mentor die, go vendor in lion’s arch no menace from there is noticeable from lion’s arch… you can just walk away for days and the claw island battles will never degenerate.

trehaerne cleansing ritual: you exit from there and all orr looks exactly the same.

defeating zhaithan: there are still undead in gendarran fields and even in caledon forest…

i know that you have to suspend disbelief with personal story, it cannot impact all other players gameplay (can you imagine risens in LA everytime somebody does the battle of claw island personal story?). although it still feels stupid!
in gw1 nightfall there was a point you were exiled and kicked out from istan, and until a certain other point in the story you couldn’t come back to kamadan. that made sense for me. but it was also a different gameplay and setting.

other things that make me wonder why are:

the lady scout dieing during the fight against the mouth of zhaithan… she goes alone (why) while we wait outside firing at risen chickens for a stupid bet… we enter, we are trapped in an illusion, confused we get ambushed and almost everyone in the party dies but the asura and the 2 charr. we discover the scout became a risen and we kill her again… we fight the mouth of zhaithan between a joke and another, we get out of there smiling and happy making jokes about opening a door with the solid shoulder of a lady charr… like nobody died in there just some minutes ago!
so wtf this is a waste of death plotwise, because you easily forgot about her (well she was introduced in the same mission actually so it was a waste of character in the whole).

same with the guy with the dog, you know the guy or the dog have to die before the end the same instant you meet them… i’m surprised it was not the dog… but no i’m not really surprised after all… anyway he dies, but since he doesn’t turn in a risen slave… why on earth can’t i ress him? it is another waste of death… this is the only death that i really don’t get.. all others are clearly beyond the ressing point.

tegwen and her friend… i get sylvari are naive and consider death a new adventure… but she basically shrugs and move on… but when someone dies most often than not we are moaning because we are left behind by someone we loved, we discover a new all level of solitude… she is not, she is too busy befriending new people… another waste of death.

i could go on and on… but everybody else already pointed out the wackiness and the silliness so…

Vayne.8563:

Gmr Leon.1846:

The problem isn’t the writing, it’s the way that the writing is implemented…We can’t honestly say how they’re doing things at ArenaNet without being a part of the company. I’d advise against trying to assert that any one way is exactly how they’re doing it.

For all we know, it’s an even balance, where at times one takes priority over the others, like the story takes a backseat to some of the mini-games, while the design takes a backseat to some of the cutscenes, and so on. Ignoring all that, I think Tai understood, and was just honing in on the details. The design guys might very well tell them how it should be written to fit within gameplay, but that doesn’t excuse the content of it being of low quality.

I’ve read/seen interviews with the writing team. And I have experience from inside the field as well. I can say how it’s done. And logically writers wouldn’t write this stuff if they weren’t forced to…because the same team writes regional dialogue and personal story dialogue. I’m not sure how else you’d account for the discrepancy.

Then provide them? That aside, do you actually expect me to believe the, “I have experience in the field,” line on the Internet? Come now, there’s no need of that here, especially since I’d have to have been born a moment ago to believe it. There’s no denying you can say how a thing’s done, you can talk about it all day long. That won’t make your statements accurate unless they’re of your own work, since they won’t exactly fit others’, and it’s those small differences that can alter the end results.

Also, to my knowledge, there actually was a separation between writing teams on the personal story and the regional/ambient dialogue. Check out this article that I, honestly, only incidentally ran into while checking some other stuff, it’s an interview with Bobby Stein. What’s a bit curious is that it seemingly conflicts a little with an earlier interview where he talks about having worked on the conversational cinematics, but I suspect it means he helped on them, while the majority of the team he heads worked on the ambient dialogue.

That would help readily explain the discrepancies in quality. Bobby’s team stole the decent writers leaving the other writing teams, let’s just say, a bit frayed. =P

Edit: I’d also heavily advise anyone interested in the development of the living story and what’s to come to read that interview. It really helped to revitalize my interests and hopes for where the game may be headed. Mr. Stein does a very good job at acknowledging the existing issues they face with the living story, while pointing out they do have a decent tracking system planned that should help to alleviate some of the problems with it.

Gmr Leon.1846:

Vayne.8563:

Gmr Leon.1846:

The problem isn’t the writing, it’s the way that the writing is implemented…We can’t honestly say how they’re doing things at ArenaNet without being a part of the company. I’d advise against trying to assert that any one way is exactly how they’re doing it.

For all we know, it’s an even balance, where at times one takes priority over the others, like the story takes a backseat to some of the mini-games, while the design takes a backseat to some of the cutscenes, and so on. Ignoring all that, I think Tai understood, and was just honing in on the details. The design guys might very well tell them how it should be written to fit within gameplay, but that doesn’t excuse the content of it being of low quality.

I’ve read/seen interviews with the writing team. And I have experience from inside the field as well. I can say how it’s done. And logically writers wouldn’t write this stuff if they weren’t forced to…because the same team writes regional dialogue and personal story dialogue. I’m not sure how else you’d account for the discrepancy.

Then provide them? That aside, do you actually expect me to believe the, “I have experience in the field,” line on the Internet? Come now, there’s no need of that here, especially since I’d have to have been born a moment ago to believe it. There’s no denying you can say how a thing’s done, you can talk about it all day long. That won’t make your statements accurate unless they’re of your own work, since they won’t exactly fit others’, and it’s those small differences that can alter the end results.

Also, to my knowledge, there actually was a separation between writing teams on the personal story and the regional/ambient dialogue. Check out this article that I, honestly, only incidentally ran into while checking some other stuff, it’s an interview with Bobby Stein. What’s a bit curious is that it seemingly conflicts a little with an earlier interview where he talks about having worked on the conversational cinematics, but I suspect it means he helped on them, while the majority of the team he heads worked on the ambient dialogue.

That would help readily explain the discrepancies in quality. Bobby’s team stole the decent writers leaving the other writing teams, let’s just say, a bit frayed. =P

Edit: I’d also heavily advise anyone interested in the development of the living story and what’s to come to read that interview. It really helped to revitalize my interests and hopes for where the game may be headed. Mr. Stein does a very good job at acknowledging the existing issues they face with the living story, while pointing out they do have a decent tracking system planned that should help to alleviate some of the problems with it.

First of all, I don’t care whether you believe me or not. It’s not relevant to me. I’m talking from experience and if people don’t believe me that’s cool. They don’t have to.

I’ve already said in other threads, I’ve spent half a lifetime researching stuff for money. I have no intention of digging up old articles. The few times that I’ve mentioned stuff, others did provide the stuff I’ve mentioned and generally, the things I’ve said have been validated at those times. Again, I post how and what I like because I do this for fun. Looking up old interviews…not fun. So I don’t do it.

I do know some of it was probably from a European radio show that had some of the writers (including Jeff Grub and Ree Sosebee) on it..and I’m pretty sure those interviews are still online. I don’t remember the name of the show/site, but they were good interviews worth listening to.

Basically I’ve read and watched hundreds of hours of Guild Wars 2 information/videos/blogs/interviews and finding that stuff a year or two later….not fun and I’m not doing it.

If you wish to dismiss what I say, that’s cool. I’m good with that.

It won’t make it any less true.

Wow… I leave for a few hours and this whole topic splits off like crazy. Let me just address a few things.

“I agree with much of what the OP has to say except that I don’t really have an issue with the idea of one group of members of a given race being allies while another group comprised of members of the same race being foes.”
I never said that I didn’t want good scritt and bad scritt, I just want to know WHY one group of scritt is good and one is bad. The game just presents one as enemies and one as helpless allies without good reason.

“Personally I think they also messed up the Norn. In Guild Wars 1 the Norn were sometimes funny, but often intimidating and mysterious.”
I do see your point…

And in reference to the whole Vayne debate over the way in which content is written, I think that how the content is written is irrelevant. I’m not really directing blame on the writers only, because anything they write is due to a trickle down effect of what needs writing. But I’m just pointing out that something has to change in the whole process – no matter where the error lies – to fix this issue.

Aaaaand finally, the issue of the charr. First of all, discussing the posture and design of the charr is far off topic, seeing as the point of this topic is to discuss writing, not concept design. BUT, to finish off that debate, you will notice that all of the upright charr in GW1 were associated more directly with their religion, often being caster and religious figures of some sort. The rest of the charr had the same basic design as the charr do in GW2.

However, if you take a look at many of the Flame Legion charr in GW2, you will notice that some of them (mostly religious figures like Shaman) retain their upright posture that they had in GW1, although now it is more believable by not altering the entire charr physiology. So the if you’re looking for the original design of the charr, it is reflected in the direct societal lineage from them into the Flame Legion. But for the rest of the charr, you will be hard pressed to find the same design.

Vayne.8563:

Gmr Leon.1846:

Snip

hide spoiler

Then provide them? That aside, do you actually expect me to believe the, “I have experience in the field,” line on the Internet? Come now, there’s no need of that here, especially since I’d have to have been born a moment ago to believe it. There’s no denying you can say how a thing’s done, you can talk about it all day long. That won’t make your statements accurate unless they’re of your own work, since they won’t exactly fit others’, and it’s those small differences that can alter the end results.

Also, to my knowledge, there actually was a separation between writing teams on the personal story and the regional/ambient dialogue. Check out this article that I, honestly, only incidentally ran into while checking some other stuff, it’s an interview with Bobby Stein. What’s a bit curious is that it seemingly conflicts a little with an earlier interview where he talks about having worked on the conversational cinematics, but I suspect it means he helped on them, while the majority of the team he heads worked on the ambient dialogue.

That would help readily explain the discrepancies in quality. Bobby’s team stole the decent writers leaving the other writing teams, let’s just say, a bit frayed. =P

Edit: I’d also heavily advise anyone interested in the development of the living story and what’s to come to read that interview. It really helped to revitalize my interests and hopes for where the game may be headed. Mr. Stein does a very good job at acknowledging the existing issues they face with the living story, while pointing out they do have a decent tracking system planned that should help to alleviate some of the problems with it.

First of all, I don’t care whether you believe me or not. It’s not relevant to me. I’m talking from experience and if people don’t believe me that’s cool. They don’t have to.

>_> So…Nothing to say about the meatier parts of my post? Just gonna react defensively out of apathy? Okay then, if that makes sense and is fun for you. I’m not gonna say I understand it, but I am gonna say you have a strange sense of fun.

Tai Kratos.3247:

And in reference to the whole Vayne debate over the way in which content is written, I think that how the content is written is irrelevant. I’m not really directing blame on the writers only, because anything they write is due to a trickle down effect of what needs writing. But I’m just pointing out that something has to change in the whole process – no matter where the error lies – to fix this issue.

Pretty much agree here. If the interview I linked is any indication, hopefully we’ll be seeing some changes towards that relatively soon.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Pretty much this and only thing. MMO standards when it comes to story are as low as it gets in the gaming industry.

I’ve seen worse genres for story. Heck, there was once a time when story was not at all important to the game; I should know, I lived through it. I really don’t quite know WHEN it was decided in the west to focus on story in games . . .

I have a hard time calling the writing worse than GW1 though. I think the personal story is, actually, a smidge better than Prophecies (from Pre-Searing to Hell’s Precipice; the post-campaign material is much improved) . . . in that while you can see a lot coming, it’s not quite feeling like four stories strung together at the ends to make a whole. It feels weak, but it does feel like one story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Pretty much this and only thing. MMO standards when it comes to story are as low as it gets in the gaming industry.

I’ve seen worse genres for story. Heck, there was once a time when story was not at all important to the game; I should know, I lived through it. I really don’t quite know WHEN it was decided in the west to focus on story in games . . .

I have a hard time calling the writing worse than GW1 though. I think the personal story is, actually, a smidge better than Prophecies (from Pre-Searing to Hell’s Precipice; the post-campaign material is much improved) . . . in that while you can see a lot coming, it’s not quite feeling like four stories strung together at the ends to make a whole. It feels weak, but it does feel like one story.

Which genre has worst story telling? The only i could think of is sports games lol which have no story at all.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Pretty much this and only thing. MMO standards when it comes to story are as low as it gets in the gaming industry.

I’ve seen worse genres for story. Heck, there was once a time when story was not at all important to the game; I should know, I lived through it. I really don’t quite know WHEN it was decided in the west to focus on story in games . . .

I have a hard time calling the writing worse than GW1 though. I think the personal story is, actually, a smidge better than Prophecies (from Pre-Searing to Hell’s Precipice; the post-campaign material is much improved) . . . in that while you can see a lot coming, it’s not quite feeling like four stories strung together at the ends to make a whole. It feels weak, but it does feel like one story.

Which genre has worst story telling? The only i could think of is sports games lol which have no story at all.

First Person Shooters have had consistently terrible storylines with a few exceptions. As a runnerup, Roguelikes, for which a storyline just gets in the way of “kick in the door and kill stuff for the loot”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Pretty much this and only thing. MMO standards when it comes to story are as low as it gets in the gaming industry.

I’ve seen worse genres for story. Heck, there was once a time when story was not at all important to the game; I should know, I lived through it. I really don’t quite know WHEN it was decided in the west to focus on story in games . . .

I have a hard time calling the writing worse than GW1 though. I think the personal story is, actually, a smidge better than Prophecies (from Pre-Searing to Hell’s Precipice; the post-campaign material is much improved) . . . in that while you can see a lot coming, it’s not quite feeling like four stories strung together at the ends to make a whole. It feels weak, but it does feel like one story.

Which genre has worst story telling? The only i could think of is sports games lol which have no story at all.

First Person Shooters have had consistently terrible storylines with a few exceptions. As a runnerup, Roguelikes, for which a storyline just gets in the way of “kick in the door and kill stuff for the loot”.

lol fps’s in general have waaaaay better story telling unless ‘fps’ title is CS to you. Just look at the latest such as Bioshock Infinite, Metro LL and so on. When was the last time an mmo had a story worth having a conversation with your buds? Never.

On the bright side at least they haven’t used much of the gw1 story yet. If they ever do introduce underworld or fow maybe they will do better with the story then.

Some of the events are done OK as well. I think the dwayna event has some good story elements. Way more interesting thank the personal story anyway.

Gmr Leon.1846:

Vayne.8563:

Gmr Leon.1846:

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Then provide them? That aside, do you actually expect me to believe the, “I have experience in the field,” line on the Internet? Come now, there’s no need of that here, especially since I’d have to have been born a moment ago to believe it. There’s no denying you can say how a thing’s done, you can talk about it all day long. That won’t make your statements accurate unless they’re of your own work, since they won’t exactly fit others’, and it’s those small differences that can alter the end results.

Also, to my knowledge, there actually was a separation between writing teams on the personal story and the regional/ambient dialogue. Check out this article that I, honestly, only incidentally ran into while checking some other stuff, it’s an interview with Bobby Stein. What’s a bit curious is that it seemingly conflicts a little with an earlier interview where he talks about having worked on the conversational cinematics, but I suspect it means he helped on them, while the majority of the team he heads worked on the ambient dialogue.

That would help readily explain the discrepancies in quality. Bobby’s team stole the decent writers leaving the other writing teams, let’s just say, a bit frayed. =P

Edit: I’d also heavily advise anyone interested in the development of the living story and what’s to come to read that interview. It really helped to revitalize my interests and hopes for where the game may be headed. Mr. Stein does a very good job at acknowledging the existing issues they face with the living story, while pointing out they do have a decent tracking system planned that should help to alleviate some of the problems with it.

First of all, I don’t care whether you believe me or not. It’s not relevant to me. I’m talking from experience and if people don’t believe me that’s cool. They don’t have to.

>_> So…Nothing to say about the meatier parts of my post? Just gonna react defensively out of apathy? Okay then, if that makes sense and is fun for you. I’m not gonna say I understand it, but I am gonna say you have a strange sense of fun.

thisisavtest

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Then again, you might make a good religious figure, they seem all about the truth claims on faith alone kinda deals.

Might be a good hobby for you, if in no other form than roleplaying it out in-game. =P

“I have read thousands of the divine scriptures, thus I know the ways of our gods, and you may believe as you please, but that does not alter the true nature of the divine. Present the scriptures to you? They are too sacred to be seen again, and to commune with the divines to let them speak through me is too taxing.”

Well then...

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…if you respond only to the above part, you might be going out of your way to have fun screwing with people with defensive responses, and you might be a polite below the bridge dweller, I’m afraid. I did, after all, give plenty else to respond to in that other post, you know?

Tai Kratos.3247:

And in reference to the whole Vayne debate over the way in which content is written, I think that how the content is written is irrelevant. I’m not really directing blame on the writers only, because anything they write is due to a trickle down effect of what needs writing. But I’m just pointing out that something has to change in the whole process – no matter where the error lies – to fix this issue.

Pretty much agree here. If the interview I linked is any indication, hopefully we’ll be seeing some changes towards that relatively soon.

I didn’t say anything about the meatier part of your post, because I have no comment on it, as odd as that might sound. You found an interview, you made some comments. I haven’t gone and read the interview, because I’m pressed for time, so I commented on the stuff I did have time for.

Not sure why you feel you have to make something of that.

I suppose the writing is worse than in other games and while, as somebody who is well past his prime, it’s somewhat embarrassing to hear/read some of the dialogue, it’s understandable that they would cater it to the lower bound of the age restriction.

I don’t really play these games for the story though and I think for most people the personal story is a a bit redundant and mostly done for the skins/rewards/achievements.

Vayne.8563:

Gmr Leon.1846:

>_> So…Nothing to say about the meatier parts of my post? Just gonna react defensively out of apathy? Okay then, if that makes sense and is fun for you. I’m not gonna say I understand it, but I am gonna say you have a strange sense of fun.

I didn’t say anything about the meatier part of your post, because I have no comment on it, as odd as that might sound. You found an interview, you made some comments. I haven’t gone and read the interview, because I’m pressed for time, so I commented on the stuff I did have time for.

Not sure why you feel you have to make something of that.

Mostly because it was more relevant to the OP’s topic than reacting to one critique and request for info.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Pretty much this and only thing. MMO standards when it comes to story are as low as it gets in the gaming industry.

I’ve seen worse genres for story. Heck, there was once a time when story was not at all important to the game; I should know, I lived through it. I really don’t quite know WHEN it was decided in the west to focus on story in games . . .

I have a hard time calling the writing worse than GW1 though. I think the personal story is, actually, a smidge better than Prophecies (from Pre-Searing to Hell’s Precipice; the post-campaign material is much improved) . . . in that while you can see a lot coming, it’s not quite feeling like four stories strung together at the ends to make a whole. It feels weak, but it does feel like one story.

Which genre has worst story telling? The only i could think of is sports games lol which have no story at all.

First Person Shooters have had consistently terrible storylines with a few exceptions. As a runnerup, Roguelikes, for which a storyline just gets in the way of “kick in the door and kill stuff for the loot”.

lol fps’s in general have waaaaay better story telling unless ‘fps’ title is CS to you. Just look at the latest such as Bioshock Infinite, Metro LL and so on. When was the last time an mmo had a story worth having a conversation with your buds? Never.

Only since post-‘98 man. Before Half-Life, you’d be hard pressed to find many FPS games that tried to have a story. You could argue Doom, but it’s really kinda weak about that. Same with Disruptor, for that matter. I’m sure there are more that others could think of, but stories in FPS are only a very recent trend in gaming.

As to MMOs with story, I can’t speak effectively for it since I missed out on it, but as I understand it, Everquest 1 (maybe 2 as well) had some decent backstory going for it. Not sure of the in-game story though. World of Warcraft also had a story that some spoke about with each other (many of the more well-versed with the original Warcraft story taking much issue with it, for that matter).

Of course, much of the discussion mostly remained with those that played the game, but that still qualifies as a “conversation with your buds,” I think.

Gmr Leon.1846:

Only since post-‘98 man. Before Half-Life, you’d be hard pressed to find many FPS games that tried to have a story. You could argue Doom, but it’s really kinda weak about that. Same with Disruptor, for that matter. I’m sure there are more that others could think of, but stories in FPS are only a very recent trend in gaming.

From ’98 to now is the majority of the lifespan (so far of course) of the FPS. This means that story has been a part of the FPS genre for the majority of its existence.

Gmr Leon.1846:

Only since post-‘98 man. Before Half-Life, you’d be hard pressed to find many FPS games that tried to have a story. You could argue Doom, but it’s really kinda weak about that. Same with Disruptor, for that matter. I’m sure there are more that others could think of, but stories in FPS are only a very recent trend in gaming.

As to MMOs with story, I can’t speak effectively for it since I missed out on it, but as I understand it, Everquest 1 (maybe 2 as well) had some decent backstory going for it. Not sure of the in-game story though. World of Warcraft also had a story that some spoke about with each other (many of the more well-versed with the original Warcraft story taking much issue with it, for that matter).

Of course, much of the discussion mostly remained with those that played the game, but that still qualifies as a “conversation with your buds,” I think.

I think doom had a great story, because it was hardly a story and more of a plot where you filled in the gaps.

It made no pretenses and wasn’t trying to be serious in any capacity. To me, that’s why it was great.

Half-life had a story, but it didn’t shove it down your throat to the point of you having to skip cutscenes etc.

I think WoW had a great story precisely for that reason: it didn’t force itself down your throat; it let you learn it of your own free will, sort of how they did it in the ES series.

Maybe I’m in the minority now, but I don’t like stories to be read to me while I’m playing an RPG, I like to make, influence and discover them.

So much stuff is spoon-fed nowadays that I can hardly play games, even if they do have good stories. If I wanted to watch a movie, I’d watch a movie and not play a video game.

What I would change:
1. Villains. First, they are mostly evil for the sake of evil, power-hungry etc. Just look at the renegade factions:
-Flame Legion: a bunch of power-hungry fanatics.
-Sons of Svanir: a bunch of power-hungry fanatics.
-Inquest: a bunch of power-hungry evil geniuses.
-Nightmare: a bunch of power-hungry sadists.
-Bandits: while some fight for the cause, most are just power-hungry anarchists.

I want villains like Gawin from the white stag, or most bad guys from human ps arc, like Kellach for example. They are not perfect but better than what we have here.
And make bad guys more serious and powerful. Have you ever feel threatened by the baddies in this game? Because I haven’t.
Generally more villains that I can symphatize with and more villains that beat the crap out of me.

2. Less jokes and real life references in general. Currently there are just too many of them. Less festivals. And stop using memes in all these jokes. I would rather see some clever humor than another charr acting like an internet cat.

3. Start showing instead of telling. Charr believe the victory at all cost is worth it? Awesome, show me some charr sacrificing civilians for the sake of victory, for example.
Humans have this unbreakable spirit? Awesome, show me some humans that still don’t give up, event though event the charr or norn in the team have lost all hope.
Orr is a terrifying place from the nightmares? Awesome, show that soldiers are scared, suffer from mental trauma etc. So far I have seen one npc act like that.

4. Zhaitan was weak. You can say about the starving thing etc. But oh come on! A freaking dragon had about 100 years to prepare and he had like what? TWO mouths?
ONE factory? Even saying things like: “Good job commander, I have sent orders to soldiers to look for other mouths, eyes and factories.” or something like that. But nope, it seems that all of Zhaitan’s reinforcements were destroyed by a single man/woman. It reminds me of a certain space station…

5. Stop with the rush. There is a reason why Blizzard never allows the big bad of the expansion to be beaten in the first patch. You know about the villains from the beggining and take a long journey to take them down. Here we have what: level 50 learn about Zhaitan being big bad. 50-70-creating the Pact, fighting against Risen. 70-80-taking fight to Zhaitan’s territory and ultimately destroying him. What? That’s it? It’s over? That’s one of the Elder Dragons, mighty god-like creatures that cause the apocalypse once in a while?

6. When I learnt about the technology I thought it would be really cool that during those 250 years races of Tyria developed. But… it’s kinda dumb. Norn don’t use any technology still, humans are in a slightly better condition, charr have those tanks etc. but never use them and asura do 99% of the work with their deus ex machinas. And magic is shown as pretty useless. No powerful mages. Even Trahearne who is a powerful necromancer prefers running with a greatsword. He used his powers once and that’s all.

7. Make our hero more interesting. More personal things happening. Don’t kill characters so often, but when you do then make sure thay you killed some important one. Nobody will care about Jimmy the Vigil soldier #12468, just because he said: “Hi, I’m Jimmy the Vigil soldier #12468, I have dreams and stuff, omg I’m dead.”
Make our characters more inteligent, make them take the initiative, not just listen to the orders all the time. I’m a commander by my own soldiers know better what to do than me?

These are just a few things off the top of my head.

It’s true, the guild wars 2 writing and npc dialogue is very lame and so cheesy.
It’s disgusting.

Okay…the big thing missing in my opinion, is flow. In other words, the story is chopped up so you cant’ really do it all at once and when you do do it, it’s broken into 10 level sections where one section has little to do with the one before it. Furthermore, most of the characters from the early story vanish and move on, without figuring into the later story..and the one character that does move with you, most people don’t like.

In Guild Wars 1, we had heroes and henchmen who were there…throughout the entire game. They started with us, they stayed with us, they grew with us. But there really is nothing like that in Guild Wars 2.

In order for a story to be successful it needs characters. If you’re a human and you save your sister, where is she?

The Charr story does have characters that stay with you, but only in the personal story…they’re never with in the world. This makes it very hard to tell a story. And this design decision means it’s unlikely we’ll ever really get attached to the NPCs on the story. After all, we never see them anywhere except for the story.

I don’t have a solution for this, because clearly they can’t stay with you in the open world. This is one reason instancing is so much better to tell a story.

Nuka Cola.8520:

lol fps’s in general have waaaaay better story telling unless ‘fps’ title is CS to you. Just look at the latest such as Bioshock Infinite, Metro LL and so on. When was the last time an mmo had a story worth having a conversation with your buds? Never.

Way better?

Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and Doom 2, Quake, Quake 2, and Quake 3. Any clones thereof (and there were a LOT) . . .

Sure there was story, but it really did boil down to “go and shoot stuff, make it to the end of the level, get the rocket launcher” more often than not. The first FPS I recalled which tried to do anything with story was Half-Life.

As far as MMO stories go? EverQuest at least tried to do something with a story, though it seems they threw in the towel around “Planes of Power” and said “lets just let them kill gods now”. Meridian 59 had a decent amount in there and some world-changing events (more than EverQuest, actually). Ultima Online had some good stuff going on, though it was really only available if you were in the top tier of players (and weren’t getting ganked). I can’t speak beyond that but someone told me FFXI had something of a story going on, there’s plenty of free MMOs which make a better attempt than the aforementioned FPS titles, and as much as I don’t like WoW it at least tried harder than Quake.

(That is to say, it tried at all…)

I don’t expect the level of Shin Megami Tensei out of my MMOs, but I’ll not say GW2 has awesome writing in all areas. The Personal Story shines in a few spots, and really lacks in others. The best parts tend to be out in the world, in my opinion, and can be missed readily. (For instance, I really like the writing they slipped in with Rox, and some of the events in Blazeridge Steppes with the Ebon Vanguard and Legions working together work out for me.)

What I’ve heard about “The Queen’s Speech” gives me hope they’ll manage to improve the quality of the Living Story writing thus far by actually getting some motion on plot.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t have a solution for this, because clearly they can’t stay with you in the open world. This is one reason instancing is so much better to tell a story.

I think the inherent problem is the “telling” of a story in an online RPG where you’re supposed to be part of it and influencing it (or give you the illusion that you are).

I think failures like SWToR have proven that people don’t want to watch movies when playing MMOs, but to play games and I hope that in the future less resources are devoted to “private stories” than actual gameplay.

Look at games that are singleplayer, like Skyrim: did they have memorable stories? No, not really. Skyrim told you relatively little story, but let you partake in many adventures that you had to personally discover. There was a good books worth of lore, if you chose to read it, but the most interesting part was fighting the associated monster/gaining the legendary artifact etc.

The story served to advance the gameplay in most cases, not the other way around.

I don’t think story telling, or an interactive movie is a bad thing, it’s just that games like that, like movies, aren’t meant to be played ad nauseam, they’re supposed to be enjoyed for the story content then discarded, because nothing is left to glean from them.

Take “the last of us”. Not a badly written story, some of it was brilliantly done, some of it was prosaic crap, but in all it immersed you into the story… the actual game mechanics were just there to ensure you had something to do in the meantime .

“The walking dead” took this one step further by making it like those old books that were popular in the 80’s that let you choose alternate endings depending on the decisions you made…. those were some pretty awesome books for the time.

Well sorry for meandering around the topic, but that’s an old coots two pence.

crestpiemangler.7631:

“The walking dead” took this one step further by making it like those old books that were popular in the 80’s that let you choose alternate endings depending on the decisions you made…. those were some pretty awesome books for the time.

I hate those books now that I am older. It’s more obvious the more often you work with them how there’s an intended ending and a bunch of endings ranging from silly to “you die, start over”, and often you’d get choices which turned out to not be choices (For instance, “Go to page 26 if you turn left, go to page 56 if you turn right” Page 26: “You realized you forgot something and turn around, go to page 56”) . . .

Video game stories are best served when they work with the mechanics instead of defying them. Why can’t I use a Phoenix Down on her, I have 99 of them! How come I did the boss fight perfectly without getting hit but then he’s kicking my butt in the next cutscene like he was just toying with me? How come I sneak through the whole building without getting caught, then I have no chance to avoid a camera in the next room? “But thou must!” . . . why must I, princess? ARGH . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hate those books now that I am older. It’s more obvious the more often you work with them how there’s an intended ending and a bunch of endings ranging from silly to “you die, start over”, and often you’d get choices which turned out to not be choices (For instance, “Go to page 26 if you turn left, go to page 56 if you turn right” Page 26: “You realized you forgot something and turn around, go to page 56”) . . .

Video game stories are best served when they work with the mechanics instead of defying them. Why can’t I use a Phoenix Down on her, I have 99 of them! How come I did the boss fight perfectly without getting hit but then he’s kicking my butt in the next cutscene like he was just toying with me? How come I sneak through the whole building without getting caught, then I have no chance to avoid a camera in the next room? “But thou must!” . . . why must I, princess? ARGH . . .

Well in all fairness, half of the fun was finding out how you would die.

I can agree with the mechanics part. Plot armor/poison really detracts from the game.

Of course you could argue it was the same way in Skyrim though due to invulnerable NPCs and I have to say that did annoy me to no end coming from Morrowind (Oblivion was mostly just shiny graphics)

Of course it is always necessary in a game like this where people would otherwise nuke the entire NPC population into oblivion, although WoW made it more interesting by adding rewards related to killing the opposing faction leaders, etc.

I think the story telling of GW2 could be alot better, if Anet woouldnt have made that stupid decision to water down every conversation of our characters into this mind numbing boring 2D style where our character stand around just stupidly and emotionless with black background and a little picture in background always, where we had in GW1 full animated cut scenes, that showed us the action in the game while we spoke with npcs.

Anet said, they did that, because they wanted to focus the game around their “art” and that to show us, what they could do with art alone … yes, the art is nice and beautiful, but when the game loses with it its life basically and the ability to transport over the emotions to the player, then art just sucks, where an animated cut scene just works alot better.

Hence, why do alot of people love AAA Offline RPG’s on consoles so extremely much, because they offer us awesome visual cut secens that tell us what happens in the game’s word with stunning animations and not with lifeless 2D art that got maybe partwise animated, but still looks totally crippled compared against a real 3D animation cut scene…

I know i know, Anet has to look, that GW2 runs on as muhc older pc systems as possible, but heck, even GW1 had animated cut scene trailers… or what do you think is this:

This is the stuff with that you make epic story telling and with that you can flash and hype the people the most – with pretty eyecandy cut scenes.

AND THIS: