Guild Wars 2

Greetings to you all!

I dont want to take the time with useless intros, i ge to the point!

I theorized a lot araund Gw2 since beta, and i think i found the root of a lot of problems.

Lets keep it clear trough, it is my opinion. But i cant and wont say it is only my opinion.
I Searched a lot and used forums a lot lately, and i can say it with a decent confidence, I basically extracted this from others posts, suggestions, opinions.
Many wont know why they say things, or what is the cause of that problem.

Lets keep it still clear. What problems? (yes there are)

Boring or to simple combat.
To few or to walled in classes.
To few skills, weapons.
Dungeons die or dodge problems-More interesting boss battles.

So where should i start it?
Lets start with an example of how other games work :

Gw1 : Many combat roles – trough none are seriously needed -> All classes are fun, combat is never the same.

Wow and other : Trinity – there are 3 main roles mostly – they are all needed – hard to make party – classes become quite fun to play trough, and combat is moderately fun.

Gw2 : Barely any roles at all – some would be quite usefull somethimes – combat gets boring quite soon (unless pvp ing)

So, i think i pointed the problem out quite good. Many wont agree with me, but trinity, or atleast something like that was good. But thats quite harsh to say. Basically because its not fully true. Lets get into detail whats going on here.

Anet “destroyed” trinity for a good reson, but in a bad way.
They removed roles, but instead of upgrading the system, they downgraded it.
They should have give all classes all roles, instead of none.

No roles? Thats my opinion. And i understand many wont agree, but i make a stand in this.
My resons are quite simple. You can do many things in combat, but there are no stand alone themes for combat.
You always , dodge, nuke-hit, selfbuff-debuff. And that can be summarized as a normal dd in any other game. Its quite standard. And no matter how you “specialize” you will still be a simple dd in this game.
IT wont matter, that you call yourself support, you cant be a support as main role, because you have to dd and can only dd anyway. Because there are no skillsets for support only. Besides, what you call support? Self and others “buff”? Yes it does count a lot, but thats still no support.
That minor heal or regen the 90% of ppl can do anyway?
Cc? You cant say you are main role cc er….if you could tha game balance wouldbe destroyed asap.

There are many resons i cant explain, but deep inside all should feel, there are no roles here.

Why did Anet take it aways then? Hmm for a good reson as sead.
But lets see : i am still Lfg for 40 mins, even if i can be " anything" anyway.
Ppl still wont take me if i am to low lv, undergeared and other resons……

I must say your good resons ware totally in vain dear Anet. You destroyed it yourself with other game mechanic’s.

But i do think this can still be saved. You dont want : LF healer to Cof spams and so on?
Ok here is my idea : Make all classes able to do anything. Take on ALL roles. And as a bonus, dont force anyone to take any role, if they dont want to.
For example : Healers are not needed, but are quite welcome anytime.

This way players would be motivated to pick a role they like to play, but wont feel forced to healbot. If they wanted they could heal and support others, but could switch anytime to dd, or even tank.
Wont prevent ppl asking you to be healer? Nothing will prevent that, thats the nature of ppl. but you can replay : take the role yourself then.

I would love to talk more abaut the early weapon and boring combat topic, and how it connects to this, but i am limited in time right now, trough thats no exuse for my terrible english, but i will get back to this topic soon. Till then i welcome all decent opinions on this. And would love to hear the others who think alike.

@ Oxstar

He clearly said this was in his own opinion and stated that he knows many people wont agree with him. However, with that knowledge in mind, im curious to why make the post in the 1st place?

@Necroseth

There are 100s of games with the Holy Trinity, Tank/Healer/DPS roles.
This is one of the only games that doesn’t work this way in combat. And because of it, It’s only of the reasons why I enjoy GW2’s Combat system soo much. It’s skill based.
You dont need crazy armor or stats to be good. You need good movement and dodge coordination as well as knowing how to Damage/Control/Support with your team.

Roles tend to rely more on Gear based. A Tank needs tanky gear and stats to soak damage. A Damage Dealer needs better gear to focus entirely on damage. A Healer needs to babysit everyone to make sure party doesn’t fail. It’s not my idea of fun.

Here is a link to “GW2 Combat system 101” topic I have https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Combat-system-101/page/2#post964534

Hope this will help.

P.S: If playing a different game like this is not your style of game, there are 100s of other games that use the same system im sure you’ll enjoy.

Nekroseth ? I couldn’t agree more. Exactly how I’m feeling for months now.

[Edit by Moderator]

If there’s a game where you spam one key, it got to be Gw2.
You’re talking about something you can’t even imagine if you didn’t play it : gw1 gameplay.
Monks were not spamming one key, because there were many other things to consider than DPS. Hexes. Conditions. Rupts. KD. And even more if you wanted to be better (weapon switch).
And not only heal could be played, but “prot” too. Prevent dmges. With “enchantments”.
And tank, hey? They were not essential. Not at all. You could go without any melee. Because you had Monks. And REAL control with rupts, hexes, and conditions.

So, you can switch weapons in Gw2, and?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_mechanics

Cry.

Alipius.4783:

Nekroseth ? I couldn’t agree more. Exactly how I’m feeling for months now.

If there’s a game where you spam one key, it got to be Gw2.
You’re talking about something you can’t even imagine if you didn’t play it : gw1 gameplay.
Monks were not spamming one key, because there were many other things to consider than DPS. Hexes. Conditions. Rupts. KD. And even more if you wanted to be better (weapon switch).
And not only heal could be played, but “prot” too. Prevent dmges. With “enchantments”.
And tank, hey? They were not essential. Not at all. You could go without any melee. Because you had Monks. And REAL control with rupts, hexes, and conditions.

So, you can switch weapons in Gw2, and?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_mechanics

Cry.

You and the OP just have to accept the fact that GW2’s combat system is completely different and unique. It requires you to adapt to the situation with any class constantly. It’s a different game and if you guys dont like different, then you can play previous games similiar to each other that has been already done.

You can’t change an FPS game into an RTS game.
-cough- Actually you can… Halo was originally thought of as an RTS before they decided to make it an FPS game. lol

[Edit by Moderator]

Anyway, bout the topic…the issue is not with the trinity system itself but in the way it’s implemented. Most games just do it wrong, by presenting healers and/or tanks as boring(while often they aren’t even close to that) which results in less people attracted to those classes -> demand can’t be met. Tera solved the problem sort of OK. 2 tank classes, 2 healer classes, 4 dpsers. Wait times would only arise when there simply aren’t people running the dungeon(i’ve waited for dps often enough, to the point where i rolled one myself xD) and not so much due to a lack of xxx role. ArcheAge seems to have hit the gold mine(if the CBT material is accurate). GW2….I think they just went about it wrong by completely removing the system instead of improving it(aka, making healer/tank just as fun to play as a dps…and not just on the inside, but on the outside as well). It kind of feels like somewhere, somebody had exactly that in mind…but it got lost on the way….

@DreamyAbaddon.3265: That’s either some pretty bad games you played or just some pretty bad players. For one, dmg soaking is not even the most important aspect of a tank(that’d be aggro…and often dps). Good healers roll with good parties which puts us at a support position and not that of a babysitter. Oh, and I’ve had supposedly squishy dpsers tank dungeons for me without a problem.

[Edit by Moderator]

Perhaps it depends on what you are used to, I delibrately avoid playing DPS in most MMOs, precisely becasue they are largely too simplistic and in some ways the GW2 classes are step up (at least from the simplistic ones).

However compared to many of the support or healers I’ve played, every GW2 class is simplistic and requires far less multitasking / awareness, for example I used to play LOTRO, in raids on my loremaster (a support class) I would often do the following:

- Keep stun immunity up on the tank (sometimes tank healer also)
- Keep up debuffs, often multiple mobs.
- Cleanse people
- Off heal
- Sometimes keep one, occasionally two mobs perma CC’d.
- Drain power from bosses/mobs and feed power to healers, captains, etc
- In any spare moments do some DPS.
- CC, debuff, peel any mob that decided it wanted to go after a healer.
- Finally whilst doing all of this, I would mange a pet.

It also involved things that barely exist in GW2, like having to rapidly switch targets, between mobs/boss and team mates, a level of mutli-tasking / awareness that it just not needed in GW2 PvE, the same was true of may other support or healing classes.

GW2 classes, especailly on the PvE front seem very simplistic and very samey, in comparision, in some respects they remind more DIablo or Torchlight classes than an MMORPG class.

About the only aspect that requries more in GW2 PvE is you have to move much and are much more likely to attract the attention of mobs.

Which is the reason every hardcore Pver I know (who is not burnt out on raiding) has gone back to games where the PvE requires a bit more, as have many who prefer healing, or complex support classes, as essentially GW2 classes are all DPS with varying levels of utlily/support tacked on depending on gear/traits, etc, but none provide the total change in style that a healer or a CC class does in other MMOs.

Furthermore from a general group play perspective, you just don’t need the organisation or communication that you do in most otehr MMOs, GW2 PvE is very newb / casual in style.

What class are you playing that the combat is stale and boring?

It must certainly not be Elementalist or Ranger.

TWMagimay.9057:

Anyway, bout the topic…the issue is not with the trinity system itself but in the way it’s implemented. Most games just do it wrong, by presenting healers and/or tanks as boring(while often they aren’t even close to that) which results in less people attracted to those classes -> demand can’t be met. Tera solved the problem sort of OK. 2 tank classes, 2 healer classes, 4 dpsers. Wait times would only arise when there simply aren’t people running the dungeon(i’ve waited for dps often enough, to the point where i rolled one myself xD) and not so much due to a lack of xxx role. ArcheAge seems to have hit the gold mine(if the CBT material is accurate). GW2….I think they just went about it wrong by completely removing the system instead of improving it(aka, making healer/tank just as fun to play as a dps…and not just on the inside, but on the outside as well). It kind of feels like somewhere, somebody had exactly that in mind…but it got lost on the way….

@DreamyAbaddon.3265: That’s either some pretty bad games you played or just some pretty bad players. For one, dmg soaking is not even the most important aspect of a tank(that’d be aggro…and often dps). Good healers roll with good parties which puts us at a support position and not that of a babysitter. Oh, and I’ve had supposedly squishy dpsers tank dungeons for me without a problem.

Play Final Fantasy XI.
All about gear and soaking damage as Tank.

Sure u can dodge in GW2 and Tera but there is no substance when ur handycapped in combat because u have to have a healer to babysit you. That’s right, I used that term before because it’s what it is. If you NEED a healer to look after you because you lack the abilities to stay alive, then that’s a problem. This game has it done combat differently. I like how it is. It could use improvements at times but those improves are NOT to add the trinity roles that will ruin what “we” like about this game.

Thus, leading some of us here to GW2.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Play Final Fantasy XI.
All about gear and soaking damage as Tank.

Sure u can dodge in GW2 and Tera but there is no substance when ur handycapped in combat because u have to have a healer to babysit you. That’s right, I used that term before because it’s what it is. If you NEED a healer to look after you because you lack the abilities to stay alive, then that’s a problem. This game has it done combat differently. I like how it is. It could use improvements at times but those improves are NOT to add the trinity roles that will ruin what “we” like about this game.

Thus, leading some of us here to GW2.

Never played and if what you say is true, that’s a very bad game design…

I’ll assume you played Tera…any class can solo a BAM. Without a healer. Heck, my last month there in pve….I healed less than 10% of the time(or provided any defensive support). Because my party was so good, I could focus entirely on offensive support(or go make coffee, they wouldn’t notice anyway). I can also find some old Aika videos of various classes soloing various dungeons. Heck, in 9Dragons healers were obsolete. The support role has evolved a lot in the last 5 years, most players just seem to have missed that…

Somewhere, smb on this forum said that…s/he thought dungeons would be runnable with random classes, not that the whole roles would be deleted. I mentioned ArcheAge earlier…what do you think of that design?

Oxstar.7643:

Wow, presumptious much? I outheal every ele in pve and in pvp I’m a bunker which I’m doing great at – I win most games I’m in.

Because, like every good healer will tell you, hps is the most important thing…oh, wait, no, that’s what bad healers think while good healers know that hps is literally irrelevant.

When people start typing caps and start insulting i stop reading.

Nekroseth.5186:

You always , dodge, nuke-hit, selfbuff-debuff. And that can be summarized as a normal dd in any other game. Its quite standard. And no matter how you “specialize” you will still be a simple dd in this game.

Good post of your opinion, to each their own, i agree that other share it.

However the quote above makes me think you haven’t played in an organized guild group with people that are good at their class. Trust me you will notice a huge difference if your entire party is “just dd”, a good warrior/guardian and a bad one are very easy to differentiate.

GW2 is about everyone helping everyone. Regen, stability, aegis, party wide condition removal, fury, might, and straight up group heals make all the difference when timed correctly. I actually dodge about 60% less when i’m in a guild group vs a pug because i know my guardian friend is going to have aegis up when its needed.

The problem isn’t that GW2 has no trinity its that the general MMO population can’t adjust to a different type of gameplay. Once people get out of your type of mindset where; “i dont heal the party because i’m dps” is standard, pugs and groups will succeed far more often and people will have a lot more fun.

Our group of 4 RL friends always pugs one and 90% of the time the pug says the run was the best he’s ever done and they ask to be friended and contacted whenever we run again. The CoF Magg “kite” bomb event is one big contributor to this. We kill it, every pug runs to the entrance to kite it and i have to tell them, no kiting, just kill my marks. Some are baffled and ask, “really? everyone inside?”. After we crush the room and then dance around for magg to finish the bomb event the pugs are usually telling us how they have never done it legit and it was so much more fun.

GW2 doesn’t need a trinity, there are plenty of WoW clones around for people to get their trinity fix with. GW2 needs more of the playerbase to break out of an old mindset and work together. I’m not saying some fights aren’t a snoozefest but all games can use improvement is some areas. But thats my opinion and we are both entitled to our own.

DreamyAbaddon

If you ask me, i would actually implement the (not even trinity but 4 roles) with the current combat system or game system.
Because its good.

And lets keep it in mind, you would not be 1 role but all.
Gear? Besides the game is alredy gear dephendend badly, now that we have these ascended.
I dont want to agrue on this topic. But right now if you have a bad gear you can barely kill mobs above 40-50. But soon as i brokered a good gear i could progress easy.
Trough might not be a harsh problem like you describe or it is in other games but it is also present in some way, and its not a valid point to base on.

I dont say games need “healbots” or even a dedicated healer class that can ONLY heal and support, but there always should be a way to become support only role.

If you ask me i would remake heals to be really usefull, like half hp heal, but give them a big Cd time, so you cant spam them. Like in D&D, you only use it tactically when it is really needed. Healing magic is rare.

I dont want to get into the quarrel abaut : Boring and not boring. Simple or not. Its not the topic here.
The topic is, how roles (or the lack of them) effect it.

On the side note. Tank build is strange, but still not a real role. All you basically do is make your character tough to kill, but you basically dont achive anything with it. It has no real purpuse. Its not even considered tank, since it wont draw dmg away from others. Since others only attack you if you get lucky. Ppl see you are bunker and ignore you.
Just and example.

Besides, combat IS boring mostly. Not always i admit. There are totally thrilling and exciting battles, and events, where you need to dodge constantly and make your heals timed.
But the 75% of the time i can progress by spamming my weapon skills.
On a mob and still kill them no matter what order you use your skills. (it wont matter if slow or fast, time is not a question here)
Utility skills are so high on cooldown you always save them, and become useless. When you would actually need an edge, you realize they are not that strong at all. And still die.

This is pve. Abaut pvp? hmm whell it is quite decent i must admit. I might as well say i would keep the current system for pvp.

“Good post of your opinion, to each their own, i agree that other share it.”
Agreed good thinking thank you.

Gw does not need trinity, also agreed on that to. It need more then 3. roles. And exspecially more then 1.
What you say sounds interesting rickets, but thats only shows, there can be teamplay.
But keep in mind the 90% of the players dont have or cant get an arranged team.
I pesonally hard only 1 thing from all araund the posts and game feedback : Its hard to get ANY party at all.

“GW2 is about everyone helping everyone” I agree, but that does not mean you should not be able to pick up a role you would like to.

So, what i try to say is : Gw2 would be awesome if you could take up roles. Determined Defined roles. Not just all arund DD classes, that can make some specific things, others can not. But a whole definded role in combat.
And most importantly, the game would still not need any roles to complete.

Example : You could take up tank role in dungeon, or general pve. But you could still finish them without tanks.

I do believe it would add a LOT to the game.
Players had a LOT more room to custumize there classes or characters.
To pick a character that fits there taste a lot more accurately.
Its a room to expand characters options.

That is my opinion.

since the outset, i never ever liked the terms tank or healer.

i dont want to be pigeonholed into 1 of 3 choices.

great for an npc that tags along, but not for my character.

i am glad they are gone.

Yours, OP, is the typical review of a person who still didn’t get to master his character and team play.
I too believed that, just like most people, before getting deeper into the system.

GW2 indeed lacks challenging content and especially there are no team-required zones.
This is an issue, but has nothing to do with the combat system, it’s just a matter of lack of team-based endgame.
Fractals is the first implementation of such a zone, but it’s not enough.

Finally, I’m bluntly telling you that GW2 combat doesn’t have to adapt to every person that’s missing obsolete tank/healing system.
This combat is much deeper and more interesting, and the reason a lot of people play this game; Anet will never downgrade the greatest selling point of their game down to the level of other MMOs.

DreamyAbbadon, I’m fine mate.
Solosi, if you truly think any trinity combat system is harder than GW2 then I can only assume you have not faced the hardest of PVE GW2 has to offer. Try path 1 in SE exp. Or path 3 in CoF. Or any path in Arah.

You like humping a health bar and pressing 1 1 1 1 1? Hey whatever floats your boat I guess, but GW2 will never have this type of gameplay, why try to force it on us when you can play any other MMO out there and get that?

Red Falcon.8257:

Yours, OP, is the typical review of a person who still didn’t get to master his character and team play.
I too believed that, just like most people, before getting deeper into the system.

GW2 indeed lacks challenging content and especially there are no team-required zones.
This is an issue, but has nothing to do with the combat system, it’s just a matter of lack of team-based endgame.
Fractals is the first implementation of such a zone, but it’s not enough.

Finally, I’m bluntly telling you that GW2 combat doesn’t have to adapt to every person that’s missing obsolete tank/healing system.
This combat is much deeper and more interesting, and the reason a lot of people play this game; Anet will never downgrade the greatest selling point of their game down to the level of other MMOs.

This… it’s not so much the combat as it is the encounter design. Fractals did a better job at least having people do different things at the same time, but not really synergize skills or do different things from a combat perspective. In some ways I think it’s hard for Anet to design certain fights to do unique combat things since that might require a mechanic that not every class can provide, yet the whole idea is that any group combination is viable.

I honestly do not think all the possibilities within the professions has been explored. Remember the game is not even 4 months old.
I know there are support professions that have AoE heals and I know that Warriors have them through banners as well if I remember correctly. I know they do have rez in their highest banner.

So until people start to specialize more we may never know the true potential of each and every profession.

Once that is done then someone can proclaim that it was good to break the trinity but Anet did it badly. I don’t know if they have or not. there hasn’t been enough time to make these type of statements

Compared to the group combat systems that came before trinity systems, trinity was a step up, an evolution. ArenaNet spared no words to make players understand the drawbacks of trinity. However, the most obvious problem was not having split roles enforcing players to work as a team, but players being nailed to the same role for eternity. Especially bad, since most players made that choice at character creation and without really knowing the consequences.

Trinity was an easy fix for developers, because a trinity system can be mass applied to every single combat situation a group encounters. Design once, and then just stamp out encounters. Slight variation creates a reasonably large pool of variation.

GW2 is lacking this “easy to apply” system. To achieve the same level of group play, encounters have to be programmed in higher detail. Fractals are a first step in how some Fractals enforce different players to fulfill different things while still advancing the progress of the entire group. Fractals are one step up from regular dungeons, which are basically single player missions with health pools too high to do them alone.

To create more unique roles and special mechanics, ArenaNet does not need to create skills doing that for each class. They just need items for skills 1-5. The Hammer is the perfect example of how to implement roles. Not by changing classes and pushing them into a ghetto, but by giving the players the choice of who picks up which weapon from the ground, therefore taking on a role in one encounter/fractal. ArenaNet does not need to introduce a healer class, they drop a book of healing on the floor where they think an old school trinity split might be fun for a while and done.

Sylosi.6503:

Perhaps it depends on what you are used to, I delibrately avoid playing DPS in most MMOs, precisely becasue they are largely too simplistic and in some ways the GW2 classes are step up (at least from the simplistic ones).

However compared to many of the support or healers I’ve played, every GW2 class is simplistic and requires far less multitasking / awareness, for example I used to play LOTRO, in raids on my loremaster (a support class) I would often do the following:

- Keep stun immunity up on the tank (sometimes tank healer also)
- Keep up debuffs, often multiple mobs.
- Cleanse people
- Off heal
- Sometimes keep one, occasionally two mobs perma CC’d.
- Drain power from bosses/mobs and feed power to healers, captains, etc
- In any spare moments do some DPS.
- CC, debuff, peel any mob that decided it wanted to go after a healer.
- Finally whilst doing all of this, I would mange a pet.

It also involved things that barely exist in GW2, like having to rapidly switch targets, between mobs/boss and team mates, a level of mutli-tasking / awareness that it just not needed in GW2 PvE, the same was true of may other support or healing classes.

GW2 classes, especailly on the PvE front seem very simplistic and very samey, in comparision, in some respects they remind more DIablo or Torchlight classes than an MMORPG class.

About the only aspect that requries more in GW2 PvE is you have to move much and are much more likely to attract the attention of mobs.

Which is the reason every hardcore Pver I know (who is not burnt out on raiding) has gone back to games where the PvE requires a bit more, as have many who prefer healing, or complex support classes, as essentially GW2 classes are all DPS with varying levels of utlily/support tacked on depending on gear/traits, etc, but none provide the total change in style that a healer or a CC class does in other MMOs.

Furthermore from a general group play perspective, you just don’t need the organisation or communication that you do in most otehr MMOs, GW2 PvE is very newb / casual in style.

I agree with this, regardless of what fanboys say, there really is very little depth because of how marginal role differences are in GW2. There’s no need to specialize, coordinate a group, anything like that. To me it feels braindead. I only play to level up alts in hopes that in a couple years, we’ll all be laughing about how bad GW2 was in the beginning.

There are hundreds of MMOs with the trinity steadfastly in place, they are over there —> have fun.

With your suggestion – all gear at 80 would have to be the same no matter what style it is. Heavy armor, light armor – same defense and same bonuses. Unless you think we need to have armor and weapons and jewelry for each separate role? No way man! There would be no need for classes, everyone has the same skill tree and depending on how you allot your skill points, that’s your skill set.

Wait… that’s Eve:Online.

I do like the combat in GW2 it does require you to be more reliant on yourself. With that said I can’t help but miss GW1’s trinity and the roles. I loved playing infuse in HoH.. Catching spikes, watching the field and coordinating with my team on vent to win. I liked my role in that game as it felt like I was actually contributing something of value to the team. Whilst I do like GW2’s combat I sort of miss that feeling of being valuable to a team because everyone can do what I can do. There is this misconception that the trinity is bad bad bad and evil. I don’t agree with it. The trinity gave roles to people and the achievement came from doing those roles well and ensuring team success. So each person playing their role got satisfaction from it. Many will disagree which is okay. I know GW2 is a different game and for the most part I enjoy the combat. There is more emphasis on being reliant on yourself for survivability. But I think when you have a group of people all doing the same thing it can get stale for people.

Play on a team that understands their classes and skills, and how to use them… a team that actually makes use of combo fields and changes their utilities between big fights… a team that communicates, develops a strategy, and then executes it…..

The first step in understanding the depth of the combat in GW2 is to get rid of the zerg mentality… the second step is to drop the FOO strategies… and the third step is to look for places to challenge yourself and your team. Speed runs that don’t include skipping content… taking on group DE’s that most people swear you need 50 players for… killing bosses with a goal of no downs…

I know playing a healer is not for everyone, I get that. Its something that I enjoy, and while I have an ele with maxed healing gear, and can do pretty solid AOE heals, I get no xp/love for it. For helping my team hold a wall or defeat a wave, I get nothing. Players don’t even know who to thank for saving their kitten when two guys were on them.

GW2 hates healers. They don’t give anything for us. You are a DD in this game, or you are DD.

Open world is great, pve is fun, pvp instance is fun, but I am really only allowed to play the way they want. I want to be a healer, its what I do, so at the end of the day GW2 is just not the right game for people like me.

They took the same stance with RP servers, and not allowing the ‘hide’ account name options suggested in early beta.

I know it is a great game, and without the sub I am really just talking about if I continue to play or not. I have gone with not for now, and paying a sub again for a game that lets me play my way.

Before anyone makes the mistake if considering saying anything like this “i dont want to be pigeonholed into 1 of 3 choices.”

READ MY POST AT ALL. If not pls dont troll. And spam this thread with opinions you base on assumption and a post name.

Thank you !

Ok back to topic and reply :
Dear PearlGore no offense, but basically you do the same when downed -_-

Red Falcon. I must thank you for coming up with this.
Yes there are many options. And possibe ways to “costumize” your “builds” and create strong teams for combat, but teams will still do the same boring thing(s) :
Go in, start hitting stuff, spam buffs if up, spam cc if up or needs interrupt (if mobs can be interupted at all) Rez in combat. And dodge if they see anything at all from effects when to.
I mostly imagine pvp when talking abaut indepth game mechanic at all in Gw2 (yes it does needs a bit of insight and skill and a lot of teamplay), because pve lacks insanely any real mechanic..
As you mentioned (and as proof) me and my friends started playing from lv 1 to 20. IN 2 days all i saw was : Attack- attac-Attack- Selfheal if needed (rarely-mostly at events vs impossible odds) And we still won mostly. Or got wiped by the boss that 2 hits.

Getting 2 hitted by bosses in not hard, its stupid design. Like in Heroes, the game wont be harder if it stays stupid. But will start to cheat. It will be stupid and dissapointing.
And dont tell me “know when to dodge”…….A game combat based on if you can dodge 1-2 attack every 10-20 sec is bu….ok lets stop this thout…Way to simple and single minded.

What FourthVariety says is true, but its not the good way. It feels like a duck tape.
And again, i dont want to repeat this 10000000 times, i DO NOT want Anet to make a Healer CLASS, or Force players to ANY ROLE.
I WISH, for a chance to pick up roles.

As CantonMudFarms says. Why take the chance from players that actually want to take up a role?
And jet again i can not express this more simple (maybe my english lacks)
But giving the game roles, you can pick up optionally, WILL NOT FORCE anyone to take up any role? Why do every third commenter think i want trinity? did they read the post at all?

Dear bluewanders after dooing all that, i realized, it is still boring, and i have no real role in combat. I still almost do the same when i play singleplayer.
Exacly for the reson : All builds are viable, ergo : all classes are almost the same no matter what build you have.
You might have more or less dmg. More or less cc , more or less boons or conditions. But in the end you will keep spamming nukes, or nukes that apply boons or conditions, but in the end they will still be nukes you spam in pve always anywhere anyway.
Only because it works slightly better in team or in instance, it wont mean you have a role….

As many mention Fractals is the first step. And as you mention, because it is implemented that way.
In my opinion thats bad. It foreshadows 1 thing…

You have to invent combat roles by building the game in a way. Instead of give players combat roles, and build the game the way they want.
This will INCREDIBLY LIMIT the devs, and will make the game design insanely slow.
I admit, it will make each fight unique, and well designed. But i kind of have low faith after all those boring instances thay dropped in game so faar.

Nekroseth.5186:

Wow and other : Trinity – there are 3 main roles mostly – they are all needed – hard to make party – classes become quite fun to play trough, and combat is moderately fun.
.

I stopped reading there. Roles is the most one sided and boring thing ever. It’s actually so boring and easy that people made dps meters just to get some kind of challenge in that dull system.
The “no roles” is the best part about guild wars 2. If you want trinity roles, then maybe you should play another game?

No trinity, please.

But I must admit, I do enjoy being a healer. But that craving is still satiated with the pseudo-heal action in regards to Buffs and Partial Heals. For my Thief, throwing down a Shadow Refuge is satisfying, especially when getting a downed ally back up.

In regards to tanks. Hell no. I did tanking back in WoW, and I just dislike the gameplay of tanking. There are bosses where tanking is really fun, but there are times where things get borrriinnggg… And the attitude that comes with the tanks and/or heals.

And I don’t think we’ll see Tank and Healers in GW2. Doing so would royally-kitten-up their balancing on classes (and currently, it’s an uphill battle for balancing).

There is a part where i mention : Keep the current game play, but make player be able to pic up roles if they want….
Anything hard in undertanding that, or imagining this?

Pleae i beg you dont keep making myself repating.

Dont try to picture wow…..you kill the idea what i try to explain here with that.
We are talking abaut Gw and stay on it.

Or let me make my topic a bit even more clear. What is the main topic of this topic -_-

The problem is not, not having trinity, but not having decent combat roles.

THe current combat roles are just made up, not realy stand alone roles. They are partial things you do anyway mostly.
You can not pick what stlye you wish to play, or atleast not that detailed.
“roles” currently have no border.
Even if you have no trinity you should have roles in combat. It determinates what stlye you wish to play.

FOUR of my damned friend joined and left after 2 months because could not pick a class, because they felt all the same, because they could not determinate a decent role they could take up.
And another 3 will soon i think.

Agree with what you say, the reason i have mainly gone back to WOW are becuase of those two reasons

By level 30 I had every skill that I knew I wanted for sure, Having the exact same skills with no changes since then has been very boring. I know people will say “Just switch with other skills!” But as I said before, I already know which ones I actually want to use.

I don’t like the dungeon system much either, besides the slow pace of dungeons (5 minutes in one small room fighting stuff), It also feels very boring without the Trinity system as there is no structure, just everyone beating the crap out of monsters

Don’t get me wrong, GW2 is still a great game!

GW2 system is brilliant.
Too few skills ? not really, I have about ~25 skills I can use as a necro during a fight. Could be more to choose from/more weapons but its ok.
Holy trinity was boring. I usually was a dps on other games, guess what ? groups never needed dps only ‘LFM TANK/CLERIC’, what did I do as a DPS ? spam all my damaging skills and damage buffs while mostly standing in 1 spot. Horrible and dull.

On this game I basically do everything. I can ‘tank’ as a cloth armor (meaning i tank hits like a boss not hold aggro), constantly dodging and reviving allies while dps’ing. Also supporting everyone with my utilities, blinding enemies and turning conditions into boons, obviously I have more skills to choose from but this is how I prefer and i change my skills depending whats needed. In what other game can you do that ?
Just finished a fotm level 37 run with a complete PUG. The whole team had 0 deaths after we finished and we did the 3 hardest fractals. Everyone supported each other constantly, guardians flopping shields and heals, mesmers with time warp/reflect bubble thingy, necro blinding and curing condis etc while all dps’ing. (can really see the difference going from 30+ to do 20 daily, players really know there class way better and start using their skills properly at higher levels.)

I actually don’t get what you want. You don’t really make any sense btw.
‘For example : Healers are not needed, but are quite welcome anytime.’
If one could pick a ‘healer’ role, then everyone would be asking for healers for dungeons, people making others pick certain roles or/kick. They just would, guaranteed. Some groups already dont invite/kick players for being glasscannons with stupid gear for high fotm, can’t blame them tbh.

‘Wont prevent ppl asking you to be healer? Nothing will prevent that, thats the nature of ppl. but you can replay : take the role yourself then.’
Yes then they reply: ’ no you’ take healer im good dps i have legendary wep im n1 u go healer or ukitten off nap’

..it’s just pointless. :S uhh

Would just ruin the great and balanced system they have right now. They should just add more weapons and utility skills.

I am all for the idea of including tanks and healers in the PVE dungeon composition. That does not mean tanks and healers will be required to run dungeons. It just means that if instead of five damage roles, you can bring two healers or two tanks. Yes I know there are support roles currently and also bonkers, but clearly there is a group of people who want more extreme versions of these roles. Why not give it to them? It would not hurt the game as long as the current situation of five damage roles is still viable.

By the way, keep these changes only for PVE so that the PVP is not affected.

The reason people complained about the holy Trinity was because they felt it was forced upon them. They had to run the holy Trinity because it was the only option and five damage roles was not possible. GW 2 is all about having many ways to play but right now it could use some more variety by allowing for example
two healers and three damage roles
or three tanks and two damage roles
or one healers and one support plus a damage role.

I completely agree that ANet should have given all classes every role instead of removing them. Been saying this since day 1 and have wished Blizz did it in WoW for years, I would kill to dodge tank on my rogue or heal with potions or whatever mechanic they would need to use to make sense of it.

But nah, we aren’t allowed to have fun in MMO’s for some reason the devs like to pigeonhole us into playing certain classes to play a certain way which is complete bull, and for people that don’t like being DPS 24/7 of course GW2 combat is going to become extremely dull quite fast because that’s what you are doing 99.9% of the time. DPSing.

I loved games like skyrim and oblivion because it let me do all the things I wanted, I could be a 2 handed claymore wielding battlemage with healing powers and high stealth if I wanted… I make my own character and play my own way, and for this reason I will also love the elder scrolls online.

GW2 doesn’t stand a chance in the future if it continues to have such linear and limited choices.

I do agree that after playing GW 2 I do miss having the tank in healer roles. However I would not want to go back to a game that only allowed healer and tank Trinity because I would soon get bored of that and then hopped back to GW 2. I don’t like switching between games because I like to be immersed in the atmosphere of a single game. So why not give players the option of playing a healer or tank without affecting the current dungeon organization, but instead only adding to its diversity?

There’s something rewarding about keeping your fellow players alive, without doing any damage your self. It’s this pacifist (OK not really, but close enough) that is a really nice break from the other roles such as damage.

Well. All I know is that this system really penalizes a group of like-level and like-geared players if one of them is ‘dead weight’.

That guy who’s always downed in the 1st 30 seconds of every fight, who never does anything but autoattack, doesn’t know where their own heal skill is located, specs in a way that makes them ineffective or incredibly squishy. At least in a trinity system, those players would completely shut down a groups effectiveness so you could toss them and get a competent replacement. Here, any scrub can coast along through any encounter as long as they don’t mind repair bills and a lot of waypoint running, while just making it harder on the competent folks and dragging out the time it takes to complete stuff.

bluewanders.5297:

Play on a team that understands their classes and skills, and how to use them… a team that actually makes use of combo fields and changes their utilities between big fights… a team that communicates, develops a strategy, and then executes it…..

The first step in understanding the depth of the combat in GW2 is to get rid of the zerg mentality… the second step is to drop the FOO strategies… and the third step is to look for places to challenge yourself and your team. Speed runs that don’t include skipping content… taking on group DE’s that most people swear you need 50 players for… killing bosses with a goal of no downs…

which is exactly what the devs said they made this game for. It amazes me how few want to actually think instead of spam the same buttons over and over which is how a trinity works

Krosslite.1950:

bluewanders.5297:

Play on a team that understands their classes and skills, and how to use them… a team that actually makes use of combo fields and changes their utilities between big fights… a team that communicates, develops a strategy, and then executes it…..

The first step in understanding the depth of the combat in GW2 is to get rid of the zerg mentality… the second step is to drop the FOO strategies… and the third step is to look for places to challenge yourself and your team. Speed runs that don’t include skipping content… taking on group DE’s that most people swear you need 50 players for… killing bosses with a goal of no downs…

which is exactly what the devs said they made this game for. It amazes me how few want to actually think instead of spam the same buttons over and over which is how a trinity works

A trinity system is hardly button spamming. In fact I find GW2’s system to be more “spammy” in that it really has no direction in skill usage. You can use your 3 button before you 5 button and still have virtually no change in status. Before I start sounding like I’m advocating a trinity, I’m not. I’m very much in support of the OP though. I was in favor of the no-trinity at first, but it died out really quick when I realized how much the game has to be restricted to make it work.
What we have right now is the hardest and most interesting content we’ll ever see, for the simple fact that the majority of our difficulty hinges on dodges a class-specific mitigation that nobody likes to use. So really, stand back and look at what you see and tell me if you’re satisfied knowing that. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a hardcore min-maxer at heart, but I just don’t like having to sort through visuals to try and coordinate when to drop a combo field, which most people won’t even be able to reciprocate.
The bottom line is, without some sort of role availability, such as (such as! not exactly as) what trinity classes have, we won’t see intricate boss abilities that require coordination, and instill that “oh wow” that we PvEers like to see. Because “oh wow” is probably going to 1 shot 3 out of 5 of your group members because all they had at their disposal was a dodge mechanic and a piddly blind combo field.
Give us something like amped up healing with traits (God forbid we actually use healing gear to), or give shield-wielders a way to elongate their mitigation for longer periods of time, or give leather wearers more endurance and avoidance traits. Lots can be done to liven up professions (from 1-80, and on) without having to call the change “Operation Trinity-Up the Broken GW2.”

“For example : Healers are not needed, but are quite welcome anytime.’
If one could pick a ‘healer’ role, then everyone would be asking for healers for dungeons, "

No, if 2 others would wanted to be healer to, you had 3 healer in your team? It would be the same as right now. It would not matter what role you pick, you can finish it with any team setup.

gwawer points this out perfectly : does not mean tanks and healers will be required to run dungeons.

“By the way, keep these changes only for PVE so that the PVP is not affected.”
Alredy sead it above, but good to see others have the same idea, and opinion on this.

“The reason people complained about the holy Trinity was because they felt it was forced upon them”
Perfectly sead, thank you.
The 2 healer 2 tank dd team setup makes it sound a LOT more exciting.
You ppl should listen to the guy, he can see the bigger picture of what i try to say here.

" loved games like skyrim and oblivion because it let me do all the things I wanted, I could be a 2 handed claymore wielding battlemage with healing powers and high stealth if I wanted… I make my own character and play my own way, and for this reason I will also love the elder scrolls online.
GW2 doesn’t stand a chance in the future if it continues to have such linear and limited choices."

Rukia you spoke my mind. I was thinking the same like 2 weeks ago.
Classes are walled in. There is barely any costumization left to classes. When you take an Elder Scrolls game, you form your character fully. You get what you use, and you propably will use what you like. The problem kills itself….
(i was also looking forward for Eso, but after seeing the first vids….animations are terrible. The whoel battle seems terrible choppy, unlike GW was terribly dissapointed considering how awesome the game system is)

Krosslite for the 100000000 and 1 th time again, i dont want trinity back, i want a LOT better system then that. Besides, you clearly didnt read any post above (trough there are not many) but many mention above, how big trinity changed in the last years. You do NOT spam 1 heal. I played wow like 2 years ago, but if i spammed 1 skill always my teams would always be dead….it would be the same as Polar Ape says Deadweight.

Borked thank you.
If you mention visual combo fields, i might as well mention how the game dephends on visuals to moch. And how way to moch dephends on noticing some small thing that is insanely hard to notice.
I constantly had the problem Polar Bear mentioned : Getting insta gibbed. But why? Because i cant notice what the mob is dooing inside that 2 charr guardian hitting him and the 15 spell effect obscuring him. Of course i can not dodge his skills.

Another thout on the new instance :
It is fine they tuned it, so we can have roles in each combat.
And it became exiting. But the second you exit the place, you still wont have any role to fill. In the rest of the 99% of the game. Because it is the instance that is well designed, not you.

That is my opinion.
And abaut having a trinity (hopefully no) or not having. Or what we will have at all, is up to the devs. All i wanted is to give a decent feedback and see what others have as opinion, or even idea on this topic.
In the end the devs are that can summarize, what problems are out there, and how to fix them the most simple way.
Even Gw1 had many problems and was not a fully awesome game at first. But after Factions it became totally mind blowing for me. So i have my hopes up.
Mayb what i am talking abaut will be actually fixed with a LOT more content coming. They might actually just need more time to implement what they wanted in thefirst place, whne introduced infos on the game, and this whole thing wont be an issue.

And thank you for all the feedback lads by the way.

Here is what i would like to see:

dumping points and gear into toughness, vitality and healing power (compassion?) actually matter.

Right now i feel they do not, at least not compared to dodge, aegis, blindness or simply staying outside of the front arc of the mob. For example the other day i did much better with my engineer by simply putting flamethrower on auto attack and running circles than i did trying to be fancy with grenades or bombs.

Given the trait system and the dodge mechanic i should be free to bunker up and “tank/heal and spank”, if i so choose to. Just like someone with better reflexes can opt to dump everything into crit chance and damage multiplier and go full on glass cannon.

That would imo be the proper way to go “no trinity”. But instead we have the tank and healer corners being scorched earth and the DPS (with greater or lesser defense) being the only true option to play.

Only reason i can think off that landed us in this is that Anet didn’t want to make two different games for sPVP and PVE. End result is that everything is tilted towards sPVP, and there the “tank and spank” build would be better known as bunker. And bunkers lead to static sPVP play and slow games for what supposedly going to be a spectator esport.

So what i propose is that Anet put in a PVE multiplier for the defensive trait lines so that they actually make a visible difference and may at the upper end allow someone to be an unyielding barrier if they so opt to. The “you shall not pass” is after all a literary classic.

No offense to the op but it seems to me like you used to play healers in other games. I personally love the system as it is because of a couple of reasons first. You don’t have people thinking they are more important than anyone else in a party and yes ive seen this loads of times during my wow days where a healer would rage quit because he wasnt the centre of attention. In gw2 if you cannot stay alive then its your own lack of skill.

I was a Minstrel (Healer) in LOTRO. Standing at the back trying not to steal aggro could be very boring sometimes but that was my character type so I was stuck there, switching to DPS was an option but most of the time all people wanted was a Healer. I rolled a Guardian (tank/aggro guy) just to get some variety.

I find it nice here not to be stuck in one role. I like being able to switch roles without seeing LFG Healer and only being expected to do just that. Heal yourself, whatever I do I can always buff you, remove debuffs, heal a bit with 3/4 of my characters while still dishing out some pretty good DPS. Variety is the spice of life.

The last thing I want is to be forced to make more than one character just so I can choose DPS, CC, Support, Healing and so on.

Thord.2017:

I was a Minstrel (Healer) in LOTRO. Standing at the back trying not to steal aggro could be very boring sometimes but that was my character type so I was stuck there, switching to DPS was an option but most of the time all people wanted was a Healer. I rolled a Guardian (tank/aggro guy) just to get some variety.

I find it nice here not to be stuck in one role. I like being able to switch roles without seeing LFG Healer and only being expected to do just that. Heal yourself, whatever I do I can always buff you, remove debuffs, heal a bit with 3/4 of my characters while still dishing out some pretty good DPS. Variety is the spice of life.

That’s what alts are for. You don’t like one, switch.
Here, everything is the same. 0 diversity.
And 0 skill.

Alternatively, that is what builds are for. Except at present they are not.

I agree with OP. I commend Arenanet for trying something away from the Trinity, but as it stands now combat is incredibly boring. “Teamplay” in PvE requires a bunch of warriors and a guardian spamming buffs and shouts with very little thought (they don’t even need to target specific allies most of the time!).

The combo system was a nice idea, but seems lacking, impossible for pugs to do anything consciously – just spam some field and hope someone blast finishes in it. And even in a team, it usually costs more time than reward to set up a blast finisher in a field consciously.

Every class can fill all roles at the same time, just in different ways. Maybe some lean more towards dps whereas others are tankier, but it’s not that much compared to a trinity game. It means mobs cannot be rounded up by a tank, and the nuked before the tank dies thanks to monk buffs(teamwork).

The combat system is simple like an MMO without the teamwork system of the trinity, the only action oriented thing you can do is roll – which is why it feels like the game is roll to win. The game shouldn’t have a skillbar if it wanted to get rid of the trinity imo, it should play more like a fighting game, with combos/blocking/dodging/super moves and some how be able to combo those moves with allies. If they remove the trinity, they should have also removed the skillbar I think.

This game still has the trinity but chosen among players. Just because its mot class specific does not mean it is not there. I still see thieves hitting 7k on heart seeker and warriors hitting for 11k on kill shot. That is your dps. I still see tankers everywhere. I see only few healers since that is discouraged though I play one. I like self heals and how healing support works but the trinity will always exist in some form because its far too basic.

It’s like trying to replace a knife, fork and spoon with a chopstick. Regardless of the change, we are still eating.

Setsunayaki
We dont want trinity to be exact. We want players be able to chose roles.

7k thief and 11k warr. They are not builds, just going for raw dmg.

Tankers? You mean selfboon tanks? That only a few class can do? (it IS actually class specific, when it should not be)
Making yourself tough to kill is not helpng your team, unless you play against some dumb ai, or noob’s in pvp. It wont draw dmg from others. Its also not a role.

Healer? Discuraged? Barely any class has any heal that heals others. (another example it is class specific). And if hey do, no matter what you specialize, gear up and set up your whole character, they will still suck.

Not only trinity but no roles work right now. I can not agree.
(there are builds that are quite “hepfull”, but they are not stand alone builds, they are things that actually happen to be good.)

On a side note. Yesteday, we fought that elite giant in Ascalon, who takes the town.
Ok-ok its only lv 20 but still a good proof why this was a lie.
We go there try him on 3-totall fail.
We ask others and soon we had like 10 players and started dealing some minor dmg atleast.
The boss itself was easy-Aoe fear-Throw boulder (easy to dodge)-linear stomp, harder to avoid but easy to see-

and a nasty stomp that basically leaves you 10% hp dehending on situation.
I was unsure i avoid full dmg because i dodges, or because i was out of range. But it was quite hard to spot the stomp that basically insta gibbed ppl in range, even guardians.
But even still, it would not have been a problem, if we had a SINGLE ANYONE that can atleast heal 10-20% hp somethimes.
But no! There was no class araund that could do that. No Nekro, no mantra mesmer, no shouter warr, nothing. Ok there are no builds early in the game. But dont classes should have -non self heals or support besides traits and 1-2 skills thay happen to have from class?
I mean you sead all classes can do anything. They clearly can not.

Another thing inoticed on boss fight.
Melee is a kittened up “job”. I had 95% biger chance to die when i melee ed.
I basically only popped 3-4 hits and had to roll avay, vanish, shadowstep and so on. And i still needed luck to live.
Range is a lot more revarding and some classes do it better.
Is that just? If we have no “trinity” then why do some classes perform better in some areas?
I should be able to trait to range as thief the same way. I can? Maybe, but propably not with 10 lv outdated weapons……ooo its not gear dephendant? Wait it is not, i can still kill stuff, but like 5 times slower, and have to struggle each fight. When i have decent gear i just sit back and auto attack.

I honestly did try to do anything to fancy my combat, it does work somethimes at some classes araund 60.-80.
But as thief i jumped araund, stealthed snared switched weapons, ited. I did all there is….in the end i realized, i still kill mobs with the 90% dmg from my auto attack.

[Edit] You can come up with an only 3 skill game, stab, slice, parry. It might be more realistic, but propably not more fun.
My stab can make the enemy more vulnerable, my slice can bleed the enemy, my parry can regen my team, but in the end i will still spam 3 skills, without a role

(i feel like getting a bit more ofeensive, ill take a brake for some time, feedback is always welcome,)

[Edited by CC: Call-out]

Oh and /Salute to Morningglory. And his topic.
Many wont understand the meaning of “option”.

Ah yes. Had a go at that giant today. Found myself alone at first and apparently didn’t do enough damage (or something is wonky about how engineer grenades interact with aggro) so it was just pounding at the gate. Then a necro came by and started adding to the hurt and the giant turned around and started attacking us. After getting it to about 50% is suddenly turned back towards the gate and i discovered it had reset to full health, so i abandoned the fight.

Anyways, what i really came here to rant about was my experience with two skill challenges around the same area. In either case the actual point is either guarded by or based on defeating a veteran. In both cases the area available to move on was narrow and filled with mobs, meaning that trying to actually use movement to avoid damage (never mind that said veterans loved laying down AOE, potentially even knockdown AOE) was not a option from the word go. End result is a no win fight because Anet in their wisdom has designed the game so that heals do not matter. If you can’t avoid the DPS of the mob you will not win no matter what.

The few damage blockers available, mostly via shield, will stop you from doing damage fully, and are on long enough cooldowns that there are no point in timing them as the mob is more likely to have their massive back up before you get your blocker back up.

Basically my issue is that Anet has designed the combat system to be movement focused on the defensive side, yet at the same time has designed a PVE world that seems to negate said defensive option more often than not. Trying to actually use movement to your advantage is likely to draw in more hurt from surrounding mobs if there is enough room to move at all.

There are so many clones out there so if you absolutely must have a healer, tank, dps or must play a healer, tank, dps why on earth buy a game where it’s widely advertised it’s system removes the trinity and has no traditional tank, healer, dps roles.

Ruby Red.4019:

There are so many clones out there so if you absolutely must have a healer, tank, dps or must play a healer, tank, dps why on earth buy a game where it’s widely advertised it’s system removes the trinity and has no traditional tank, healer, dps roles.

The problem isn’t lack of trinity, the problem is lack of roles. Trinity defines rolls very easily because we are familiar with it, game designers can copy/pasta the formula. But in gw2 everyone runs the same builds, not matter the proffession. It’s like sticking a bunch of solo characters together when doing a dungeon, there is very little synergy to achieve, certainly no teamwork innately within the combat system itself.