Guild Wars 2

This is plain stupid. It’s like they don’t play condition specs in PvE, let alone a necromancer WTF.

nethykins.7986:

wild question:

Knowing that conditions (probably boons as well) require a lot of bandwith, does this also mean that this causes implications in WvW with multiple players throwing a ton of conditions and boons up at the same time.

Is it a silly presumption to make that they’ve got their hands tied with improving WvW too when they’re having to manage the traffic of conditions and boons, let alone PvE events/dungeons/champions?

There we go, nailed it. Anyhow, the Haemorrage idea was nice, maybe everyone should +1 that so it gets noticed?

Edit 1: Attached the Haemorrage idea thread below.

I’m surprised that this is an actual issue in a modern game running on modern equipment (the bandwidth Colin mentioned is, I assume, referring more to server processing bandwidth rather than network bandwidth).

Realistically speaking, how many mobs will actually have large bleed stacks (as an example as more classes do bleed than say confusion) on them at any given time on any given server? Take the open world PVE servers as an example (although I think it would also apply to WvW), at any time there must be are dozens of individual mobs being attacked throughout the server. Surely as normal and veteran mobs die quicker under larger loads of bleed/confusion this means that any server resources required to keep track of the bleed stacks on those mobs would also be freed up just as quickly. Champs and dragons stick around longer but surely each servers could handle one or two champs or dragons with a couple of hundred stacks on them as the players applying those stacks wouldn’t be applying them to other mobs?

If they can’t remove the limit (or move it to be per character) then I think there’s at least a case to be made for increasing the stack limits for mobs based on their rank, so veterans and elites would allow twice the number of stacks, champions and legendaries by x5 and epics would be x10 at least. (Note: Vulnerability should probably stay at max 25).

That way the dragon you’re all fighting would take at most 10 times the resources to track as the boar being killed in the next valley. After all, if the 20 of you weren’t all fighting the dragon you’d probably all be killing at least 10 boars.

If they can’t do that – and assuming they’ve exhausted all other reasonable options – then I’d be more than happy if they calculated the damage that my bleed stack should have done when it is either applied (or removed to make space for someone else’s more powerful bleed stack) and then convert it into a direct-damage hit (call it Haemorrhage for the sake of argument) and apply that instantly, so if for example if my attack should do 1000 damage over 3 seconds but there’s no space for it then bam, 1000 Haemorrhage damage!

Now our condition spec builds would do the damage they should do (just a bit faster) and I don’t really see an issue with that in PVE at least (I haven’t noticed many mobs removing conditions at least).

nethykins.7986:

NinjaEd.3946:

I feel like the majority of this thread is bashing on the developers for not fixing everything at once. If you hate it so much then don’t play, if you want them to fix it sooner support them through gem store and post suggestions on how to fix it instead of just demanding some fix you may/may not like. Ideas work together, slandering doesnt work at all.

PVE and some encounters in wvw need cond stack fixes so cond builds can be more useful, spvp only needs adjustment to cond removal for balance but cond dmg in tpvp and spvp is fine as is imo.

I think it’s a little naive to say that ultimately buying more gems will produce faster fixes. This is also increasingly difficult when people are not happy about specific aspects of the game, or when developer/staff mentality is defensive. (see: Perceived loot thread)

I think the main point isn’t bashing devs for not fixing it – I think it’s more about adding a feature in game, and then realising it’s not working as it should, and that there’s almost no room for movement on improving it – considering they mentioned it was going to be released “when it’s ready”, we’re seeing things like this pop up, because it wasn’t ready.

Sooner doesn’t mean soon, but the more money they get the more resources they have to work on things and maybe more room for employees. From my understanding this game was released prematurely due to lack of funds. If thats true, then they need money to get out of the hole but also, since cond dmg is also a bandwidth problem, can upgrade their server load to handle more stacks(if they went that route). There’s a thread in the suggestion forum,
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Possible-Change-for-Condition-Handling/first#post1502555

that is actually quite interesting and seemed more viable than simply raising the cap across the board or removing condition dmg :/

nethykins.7986:

I think it’s a little naive to say that ultimately buying more gems will produce faster fixes. This is also increasingly difficult when people are not happy about specific aspects of the game, or when developer/staff mentality is defensive. (see: Perceived loot thread)

I think the main point isn’t bashing devs for not fixing it – I think it’s more about adding a feature in game, and then realising it’s not working as it should, and that there’s almost no room for movement on improving it – considering they mentioned it was going to be released “when it’s ready”, we’re seeing things like this pop up, because it wasn’t ready.

Buying more Gems won’t directly offer up more resources in terms of “work-hours”. I gathered from some of the interviews this last week that’s one of the more difficult bottlenecks going on here.

“Somewhat ironically, the reason it’s taking us so long to fix culling and the other issues is because we actually are trying to fix the game thoroughly instead of just applying small patches to bandage over the issues.”

“Queues do indeed behave in a strange manner. Unfortunately, I don’t have any more news about that as it does boil down to resources. It’s a fixable problem, but we need some time from a very specialized type of programmer for that job and they’re all currently busy with other tasks.”

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/39082/mike-ferguson-repond-questions-wvw

The picture I’m getting is not of people who don’t care, but a company which just doesn’t have the human resources to handle the problems as fast as they or the players want to.

The devastating thing isn’t what ANet is or isn’t planning on doing. The devastating thing is that they aren’t expressing awareness of the problem with condition damage in PvE.

Gingelyr.3648:

The devastating thing isn’t what ANet is or isn’t planning on doing. The devastating thing is that they aren’t expressing awareness of the problem with condition damage in PvE.

I almost think that’d be worse, because then the rallying cry would have more power to it if an ANet dev said: “Yes we know that players have reported issues with condition damage in PvE/WvW environments. We’re looking into it.”

Perhaps when a condition build player hits a creature with the condition cap already topped off, the condition would be changed to direct damage? Just so it’s contributing in some way?

Advent Leader.1083:

If they can’t do that – and assuming they’ve exhausted all other reasonable options – then I’d be more than happy if they calculated the damage that my bleed stack should have done when it is either applied (or removed to make space for someone else’s more powerful bleed stack) and then convert it into a direct-damage hit (call it Haemorrhage for the sake of argument) and apply that instantly, so if for example if my attack should do 1000 damage over 3 seconds but there’s no space for it then bam, 1000 Haemorrhage damage!

This could be a bit overpowered as damage up-front is more powerful than damage over time.

I think a better solution would just be that when bleeding reaches 25 stacks, all 25 stacks of bleeding are removed and replaced by a stack of Haemorrhage that has damage and duration that are the average of the damage and duration of the 25 stacks of bleeding that were removed (or duration that is the average, then damage per tick that is equal to the total remaining damage of the 25 bleeds divided by the Haemorrhage duration, just to make sure the total damage output is not changed at all). It would remove all the server-side resources used by the multiple stacks while still doing a similar amount of damage.

The only problem would be that it might be trickier to attribute the subsequent damage to particular players (for loot rights etc), and the subsequent damage won’t be able to change dynamically based on the application of things like might to individual players. Neither of these would really be a problem though; the first can be worked around with a bit of clever coding (calculate what percentage of the Haemorrhage is from each player when converting the bleeds, then split the credit from the Haemorrhage between the players based on that percentage as it does damage).

If this is how it has to be then, PLEASE remove all minor traits that make you apply conditions whether you want to or not. I don’t need my character replacing a Necro’s 30 second high damage bleed with a 3 second low damage bleed, because I can critically hit.

NinjaEd.3946:

Calae.1738:

Removing condition damage is not a solution it is THE solution. You just haven’t figured out any creative way to do it yet.

If any Conditon Damage exists on gear, you can replace it with Power. If Power already exists you replace it with Precision.

Traits that have anything to do with Condition Damage will have to be redesigned. Arenanet created a ton of traits in GW1. I’m sure they’re smart enough to think of some.

Weapon skills that have Bleed, Burning, Confusion and Poison can be redesigned to inflict more direct damage and ANY of the following; Vulnerability, Weakness, Chilled, Immobilize, Cripple, Fear and Blind.

If arenanet leaves conditions in this broken state; we as the community should not tolerate it. Developers should not expect thier players to continue playing a broken game.

Thats about the most kitten idea ever. It isn’t working right now, so just remove it…. They replaced magic dmg(common mmo element) and replaced it with cond dmg and I like it a lot more. No longer have to worry about hp, mag def, phy def, elemental resistance, etc. It is much easier to handle. Not to mention, this cond issue isn’t game breaking. If you need a moment to clear your eyes maybe this game isn’t for you. Cond dmg isn’t great, but its not broken.

Not broken? Seriously, get your head out of the sand for a moment and think this one clearly. It’s not broken in a 1vs1 pvp situation but it’s definitely broken when there’s group play.

I avoid condition damage on stats and traits precisely because of its ineffectiveness in group environments. There are two trait lines that provide condition damage and condition duration for every class. I avoid those like the plague because I know that the return for my investment is sub optimal.

That’s why it’s broken.

With this revelation and the news about damage and loot drops it is reall apparent that condition damage builds are not a viable option.

It really appears that ANet only likes one build.. the full zerker warrior. Any other build is less efficient in combat and less efficient at getting loot.

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

expanding on the haemorrage idea, it could work like burning, when a hemorrage is applied, the total damage per bleed is added up and the oldest bleed is applied, then the next oldest and so on until there are no more haemorrage’s left. it solves the problem of the bandwidth (and likely would IMPROVE bandwidth), and the code for burning is already there, the only difference is that it would need to convert a bleed to a hemorrage (ie, converting a bleed’s damage per tick to damage per second).

Mad Rasputin.7809:

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

You’re at a job, where you work maintenance for most of the machinery in a large factory. I mean couple of city blocks big. Your boss comes up to you on the first day of the week and hands you a list of twenty items which need to be fixed that week in order for you to get paid. You’re at the fifth thing on the list when someone who works in the department you’re currently in tells you there’s a problem with a valve.

“Is it not working?”
“No, it’s just acting like it’s not open all the way even though it’s not turning open any further.”
“I’ll look at it when I have time.”

Of course, you still have fifteen things on the list, or no paycheck. Since it’s actually not outright stopped it’s lower on priority. So you move on and the next day you’re stopped by the same person from yesterday.

“Hey, you said you’d look at that valve.”
“I didn’t get around to it, I have these other things to do.”
“Whatever, you just don’t care. Lazy bum, why do you even get hired?”

Tell me what motivation you have to actually go out of your way to look into that valve now.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

You’re at a job, where you work maintenance for most of the machinery in a large factory. I mean couple of city blocks big. Your boss comes up to you on the first day of the week and hands you a list of twenty items which need to be fixed that week in order for you to get paid. You’re at the fifth thing on the list when someone who works in the department you’re currently in tells you there’s a problem with a valve.

“Is it not working?”
“No, it’s just acting like it’s not open all the way even though it’s not turning open any further.”
“I’ll look at it when I have time.”

Of course, you still have fifteen things on the list, or no paycheck. Since it’s actually not outright stopped it’s lower on priority. So you move on and the next day you’re stopped by the same person from yesterday.

“Hey, you said you’d look at that valve.”
“I didn’t get around to it, I have these other things to do.”
“Whatever, you just don’t care. Lazy bum, why do you even get hired?”

Tell me what motivation you have to actually go out of your way to look into that valve now.

Your analogy doesn’t work right because the devs made the valve that doesn’t work right. Which means it would be added to the list of things that needed to be done to get paid, because it is their fault it isn’t working right.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

You’re at a job, where you work maintenance for most of the machinery in a large factory. I mean couple of city blocks big. Your boss comes up to you on the first day of the week and hands you a list of twenty items which need to be fixed that week in order for you to get paid. You’re at the fifth thing on the list when someone who works in the department you’re currently in tells you there’s a problem with a valve.

“Is it not working?”
“No, it’s just acting like it’s not open all the way even though it’s not turning open any further.”
“I’ll look at it when I have time.”

Of course, you still have fifteen things on the list, or no paycheck. Since it’s actually not outright stopped it’s lower on priority. So you move on and the next day you’re stopped by the same person from yesterday.

“Hey, you said you’d look at that valve.”
“I didn’t get around to it, I have these other things to do.”
“Whatever, you just don’t care. Lazy bum, why do you even get hired?”

Tell me what motivation you have to actually go out of your way to look into that valve now.

In light of this analogy, (it’s a good one), let’s flip it back onto GW2.
Would you consider Ascended gear, addition of FoTM, Flame and frost living story, preview in TP, of higher priority than checking overall class balance or broken class traits/skills?

Personally, All that extra content I’d consider as fluff, but it looks like it’s higher up on the agenda.

I just have to chime in here to say that this is a seriously unacceptable design flaw. Most classes are partially built up around on conditions and then it doesn’t work when playing with other people?

What? How is this even remotely fair or even along your core philosophy for the game?

If this needs your entire system to be overhauled then just do it and deal with your losses. You can’t build an entire MMO that will be built upon for years and years on a broken design!

Ouch, this is a blow I don’t think ANet is going to recover from unless they fix this ASAP. Having an entire damage class crippled in group play in an MMO is devastating.

Think of all the people that don’t read the forums or Redit…they will level their Necro to 80 only to realize that if they are grouped with more than 1 or 2 players they are completely ineffective.

Don’t forget the “bag drop” is based on your “contribution” which is based on how much damage you do to the mobs. Not are you only being shut out of helping the group kill the mob but you are also shutting yourself off from any type of progression in the game.

It was a mistake on Colin’s part to put the blame on the back-end. No one cares why they can’t do it. We only care that the game is broken and they don’t seem to be able to fix it. And telling us this only makes them look weak. Not what we want from a AAA MMO.

Wake up ANet. This IS a AAA MMO and if you don’t fix it we will leave when the next one comes out. Most of us have played many many MMO’s and we will continue too.

Hope this gets fixed.

If ANet can’t do anything to make conditions builds more viable they have to put a cap on direct damage it’s the only way if they are going to do nothing. Hopefully this makes dungeons more challenging maybe and make people go support/condition builds.

Gulbrandr.9047:

Korrigan.4837:

LostInSmoke.2590:

Alleged reasoning, and amateur suggestions aside. Here are the facts:

Condition builds are useless in PvE. and No good dungeon party will allow any condition players into their party, because they are a waste of a party slot.

For someone pretending not be an amateur and using such a… “professorial” tone, you don’t seem very well informed. Too many condition based characters won’t work well together if they use the same type of condition. For instance, 3 bleed warriors will easily cap the bleeds to 25 all the time and like half of the damage will be lost. But condition builds are fine if there’s only one or eventually two of the same type.

See, but all the other conditions are hopelessly outclassed for damage. Bleed lets you put around 2.5-3K DPS on a target with max stacks. Burning gets you maybe 800 or so DPS. Poison is difficult to get over 200 damage per tick. That’s it for conditions. Bleed really has to form the core of your condition damage, or you’re going to be doing very, very little damage overall. For that reason, you should only ever bring one condition character — because a “condition character” by definition should be nearly-capping Bleeds to do significant damage.

You know that bleeds are NOT the only form of condition damage, right?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

You’re at a job, where you work maintenance for most of the machinery in a large factory. I mean couple of city blocks big. Your boss comes up to you on the first day of the week and hands you a list of twenty items which need to be fixed that week in order for you to get paid. You’re at the fifth thing on the list when someone who works in the department you’re currently in tells you there’s a problem with a valve.

“Is it not working?”
“No, it’s just acting like it’s not open all the way even though it’s not turning open any further.”
“I’ll look at it when I have time.”

Of course, you still have fifteen things on the list, or no paycheck. Since it’s actually not outright stopped it’s lower on priority. So you move on and the next day you’re stopped by the same person from yesterday.

“Hey, you said you’d look at that valve.”
“I didn’t get around to it, I have these other things to do.”
“Whatever, you just don’t care. Lazy bum, why do you even get hired?”

Tell me what motivation you have to actually go out of your way to look into that valve now.

Your analogy doesn’t work right because the devs made the valve that doesn’t work right. Which means it would be added to the list of things that needed to be done to get paid, because it is their fault it isn’t working right.

His analogy is fine, not working right is better than not working at all. There are workarounds to the issue (switch weapons / switch builds) and it really isn’t a huge deal unless you’re in a zerg.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Your analogy doesn’t work right because the devs made the valve that doesn’t work right. Which means it would be added to the list of things that needed to be done to get paid, because it is their fault it isn’t working right.

You should probably think a little more on this rather than just immediately reply. This isn’t an analogy to this problem alone, it’s just something to have you think a little.

nethykins.7986:

In light of this analogy, (it’s a good one), let’s flip it back onto GW2.
Would you consider Ascended gear, addition of FoTM, Flame and frost living story, preview in TP, of higher priority than checking overall class balance or broken class traits/skills?

Personally, All that extra content I’d consider as fluff, but it looks like it’s higher up on the agenda.

To extend it?

You’re not the only one working on the maintenance, but you’re not sure where everyone else is on their list, and some people are working on the new addition management said to put together as part of their lists.

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

Was his quote true? I’m confused now

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

Good luck, I salute you.

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

GetRdooone!!!! Whooot!

Lets deal with some numbers, it will help show the problem.

On my zerker axe/HB Warrior, my DPS is between 4.5-6k, on easy to kill champs like champion risen abomanations, cycling between axe auto and HB. (no acended crap)

On my main, full acended rabid (COND, tough, prec) S/d+staff necro i average around 15 stacks of bleeding and about 75% uptime for poison. I also have to cycle through 9 out of 10 of my weapon skills and 2 utility to do this. The weapon attack damage hits at about 200-500 and the bleeds tick for just over 150 with 25 stacks of my sigil (dagger offhand, scepter main and staff have geomancy) , food, and tuning crystal. This comes out to be about 3.0k dps. (assumed 1 attack/ sec at 500 + 15 stacks of bleeding + poison)
On occasion, if i use my racial elite “take root”, I can “burst” the stacks up to 25. including the seed turrets, the best condition damage that a necro can hope to achieve for a grand total of 5 seconds is 5.0k dps. (seed turrets base damage is 122, there are 5 of them)

This demonstrates the fundamental problem with Condition damage. It isn’t sustained dps for anything. My undergeared warrior can press 2 abilities and do MORE damage then a necro can do using their elite, and still get to pick defensive abilities for their utilities. (Endure pain and signet of stamina are great for soloing Zo’Quafa Cats.)

Its not the NUMBER of stacks its how hard they hit thats the problem. Conditions criting, the Hemorrage mechanic mentioned above, just more base damage, any of these could make condition builds effective.

Distaste.4801:

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Quaggan back packs and holiday events take priority

It still baffles me that they don’t have a PTS

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

You’re at a job, where you work maintenance for most of the machinery in a large factory. I mean couple of city blocks big. Your boss comes up to you on the first day of the week and hands you a list of twenty items which need to be fixed that week in order for you to get paid. You’re at the fifth thing on the list when someone who works in the department you’re currently in tells you there’s a problem with a valve.

“Is it not working?”
“No, it’s just acting like it’s not open all the way even though it’s not turning open any further.”
“I’ll look at it when I have time.”

Of course, you still have fifteen things on the list, or no paycheck. Since it’s actually not outright stopped it’s lower on priority. So you move on and the next day you’re stopped by the same person from yesterday.

“Hey, you said you’d look at that valve.”
“I didn’t get around to it, I have these other things to do.”
“Whatever, you just don’t care. Lazy bum, why do you even get hired?”

Tell me what motivation you have to actually go out of your way to look into that valve now.

Not that your analogy would make any sense, but actually it’s more the end customer tells the boss that the valve is stuck for 5 months now, because they designed it way too narrow for it’s intended use, and the boss replys with “yeah, that’s very interesting, but we don’t currently work on it right now.”

digiowl.9620:

DarksunG.9537:

The fact that anyone thinks infinite condition stacks is even remotely balanced is laughable.

No less balanced than a infinite number of zerkers.

Exactly, there are plenty of games out there where it worked out fine, Rift for example.

I fail to see how there are considerations to be made for balance. Condition builds are outright inferior now in dps compared to any of the dps specs of, well, any class. Multiple players together smash opponents in PvP/WvW and PvE with power builds, while condition builds are only tolerable in small scale battles like 1v1’s up to 3v3’s. If you outright removed the cap entirely, you’d do no harm to the balance of the game in a major way, unless you actually want condition builds to be inferior in this regard (which is illogical).

Honestly, if we lose the bleed cap only to see our already-inferior bleed damage drop as a result of counterbalancing, it’ll be two steps forward and one major step back. Seriously, does anyone actually look for condition damage builds in any run of anything? No? Didn’t think so. (Note that conditions like cripple and the like are always valuable, this strictly addresses condition dps vs. power dps)

Sprawl.3891:

Distaste.4801:

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Quaggan back packs and holiday events take priority

It still baffles me that they don’t have a PTS

Been preaching the same thing for months now. Thanks you guys for noticing the same thing. It’s so very needed especially for class balance issues, they’d eliminate so many headaches from surprise nerf patches and mistakes like they’ve made with grenade kits — sigils for example.

I just got this strange feeling that they’re going to up the damage by a fraction, but make it harder to stack.

“Ta-da! You’re doing more damage, and we didn’t even have to change our stacking system.”

Distaste.4801:

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Players scream: We have a problem with such and such and 4 months of silence and we just want one word that the devs are aware of this problem and looking for solutions!!!

Dev: Hey… just wanted to let you know that we are aware of this problem, have several solutions in mind and are trying to figure out which one will affect the game the least.

Player screams: That’s not kitten good enough blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and kitten kitten and never make a change that we can’t test first.

I don’t blame them for being more taciturn… doesn’t seem to make any difference at all when they aren’t. Irrationally demanding players are irrationally demanding.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

It is really disheartening hearing that this is not even being looked into.

You’re at a job, where you work maintenance for most of the machinery in a large factory. I mean couple of city blocks big. Your boss comes up to you on the first day of the week and hands you a list of twenty items which need to be fixed that week in order for you to get paid. You’re at the fifth thing on the list when someone who works in the department you’re currently in tells you there’s a problem with a valve.

“Is it not working?”
“No, it’s just acting like it’s not open all the way even though it’s not turning open any further.”
“I’ll look at it when I have time.”

Of course, you still have fifteen things on the list, or no paycheck. Since it’s actually not outright stopped it’s lower on priority. So you move on and the next day you’re stopped by the same person from yesterday.

“Hey, you said you’d look at that valve.”
“I didn’t get around to it, I have these other things to do.”
“Whatever, you just don’t care. Lazy bum, why do you even get hired?”

Tell me what motivation you have to actually go out of your way to look into that valve now.

I understand your analogy, a decent one at that, but that is why there is management to prioritize things for employees when necessary. If management in your analogy has deemed the ‘task list’ higher priority than day to day maintenance, then that is what gets accomplished.

It is good to hear that this issue is in fact getting looked at. It sounded as if this was not the case, which was very disheartening to hear at first. I anxiously wait to see what ultimately comes about to fix this situation.

bluewanders.5297:

I don’t blame them for being more taciturn… doesn’t seem to make any difference at all when they aren’t. Irrationally demanding players are irrationally demanding.

That said, this complaint is far from irrational. It is perhaps the biggest issue with condition builds currently, which affects a significant portion of all metagames that GW2 supports. It’s easy to just tell everyone to use power builds in the meantime, but that is neither fair nor an adequate solution, especially when entire sections of multiple classes focus on conditions and run across this issue in any level of coordinated team play.

JonPeters.5630:

It is true that letting each player have a stack is unlikely to be the solution, however we do intend to solve this problem.

Like you solved the precursor problem with the scavenger hunt?

Distaste.4801:

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Yo…dude. Calm down. Six months is nothing in software development and they have had all sorts of other fixes that probably took higher priority. Like exploits, progress blockers, dealing with bots, hacks, stability issues, trying to solve culling, balance tweaks for sPvP…and the list goes on and on with issues that effect everyone, including, but not just, the subset that wants to run conditions.

The studio doesn’t have infinite resources. They don’t work 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. Releases have plans and a schedule and are usually a mix of what can be done what has to be done and what they want done.

If you don’t understand software development cycles or how the design process and implementation works then you should probably be a little less judgmental.

AcidicVision.5498:

Distaste.4801:

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Yo…dude. Calm down. Six months is nothing in software development and they have had all sorts of other fixes that probably took higher priority. Like exploits, progress blockers, dealing with bots, hacks, stability issues, trying to solve culling, balance tweaks for sPvP…and the list goes on and on with issues that effect everyone, including, but not just, the subset that wants to run conditions.

The studio doesn’t have infinite resources. They don’t work 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. Releases have plans and a schedule and are usually a mix of what can be done what has to be done and what they want done.

If you don’t understand software development cycles or how the design process and implementation works then you should probably be a little less judgmental.

On top of the fact that this wasn’t even being complained about as actively as it is now for all of those six months.

Give them time to adapt to the players’ qualms.

bluewanders.5297:

Distaste.4801:

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Players scream: We have a problem with such and such and 4 months of silence and we just want one word that the devs are aware of this problem and looking for solutions!!!

Dev: Hey… just wanted to let you know that we are aware of this problem, have several solutions in mind and are trying to figure out which one will affect the game the least.

Player screams: That’s not kitten good enough blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and kitten kitten and never make a change that we can’t test first.

I don’t blame them for being more taciturn… doesn’t seem to make any difference at all when they aren’t. Irrationally demanding players are irrationally demanding.

More like 8 months. Been a major issue since beta

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

So, this is confusing.
Colin says, you’re “not currently looking at it” – while you’re saying you’re “actively looking at it”. Which is it?
I can understand if your plans change relative to shifting needs of the community, but does that also mean that you guys only just picked up on the issue when it was bought up in an interview?

• If you say you’ve been actively looking at it, then has Colin done the rest of your team a disservice by saying you haven’t?

• If you haven’t been actively looking at it, then is that an admission that you’re masking the issue or haven’t taken notice of player’s concerns about it when they were mentioned previously?

It can’t be both.

wintermute.4096:

Like you solved the precursor problem with the scavenger hunt?

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. The scavenger hunt is being designed. The fact that it is taking this long to design shows that they are willing to make a pretty big feature out of this. What do you exactly want? For them to rush in and release it as an unpolished, buggy kitten?

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

I’m very happy you guys are looking into it.

I suggest you make damage tick for the whole damage instead of 1 tick per condition per second, it would take a lot less server load.
I.E. 20 bleeds for 100 damage should tick 2000 damage not 20 times 100.
It would also make easier for us to know how much damage we’re dealing as well.
I’m pretty sure you guys will find a way, good luck.

6 months from now we will get another post that none of their solutions worked but they can’t provide details at this time.

I am surprised there is not more of a call of attention towards the solution regarding the cap increase being based on the rank of the enemy.

It seemed both brilliant and elegant.

Player/normal mob = 25 stacks.

Veteran and/OR silver mobs= 50 stacks.

Champion/legendary = 100/200 stacks.

We could even say that veterans don’t need a cap increase though I would say that silvers do.

It boils down to: normal mobs don’t have five players wailing on them, and whatever the case they are going to die fast anyway. Silver mobs yes, champions and legendaries God yes.

Saying that it would unbalance the game does not appear to be correct. Unless something eludes me condition damage is accepted as being lower than direct damage with all the problems it brings in loot and without even going into the artificial restraint of caps.

As many have pointed, if condition has such problems then WHY are there so many traits that apply bleeds? If the bleed cap makes bleed slots precious, why is it allowed that a berserker geared mesmer/warrior will take some of those slots?

TL;DR I give my thumb up to the idea of raising the cap according to the rank of the mob.

JonPeters.5630:

Actually this is not true and is something we are actively looking at. We have a number of solutions that we are talking about and when we are able to figure out which one will have the least impact on balance, performance, and testing we will put that solution in place as soon as possible.

Jon

Thank-you SO MUCH for responding. What was previously said about the issue really made it sound like it was something you guys had just given up on, which was really really disconcerting.

AcidicVision.5498:

Distaste.4801:

While it’s good to hear you’re doing something…you’re still TALKING about solutions? 6 months this system has been broken, seriously week 1 there were plenty of threads about how condition builds get screwed due to caps. You should be well passed talking about solutions and testing them. And please! For the love of all that’s holy get a PTS server going so we can test this and any other class changes faster as well as make sure your logic isn’t flawed like the current condition system.

Yo…dude. Calm down. Six months is nothing in software development and they have had all sorts of other fixes that probably took higher priority. Like exploits, progress blockers, dealing with bots, hacks, stability issues, trying to solve culling, balance tweaks…and the list goes on and on with issues that effect everyone, including, but not just, the subset that wants to run conditions.

The studio doesn’t have infinite resources. They don’t work 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. Releases have plans and a schedule and are usually a mix of what can be done what has to be done and what they want done.

If you don’t understand software development cycles or how the design process and implementation works then you should probably be a little less judgmental.

We aren’t talking about something small here. This is a base system that impacts a large amount of builds a crossed all classes and the problem was known IN BETA. Short of major exploits(like economy ruining exploits) this should be priority 1, ahead of even culling and new content.

I understand that programming, testing, and iteration take time; however the way he phrased it says they are still TALKING about a solution. They don’t have one in the works(being programmed), they aren’t testing one, they aren’t iterating on one, they don’t have a base solution even picked out. Now I’m no software engineer but I can certainly tell you that it doesn’t take 6 months to come up with a possible solution, in fact I’m sure there are a few in this thread. The biggest problem with ArenaNet right now is transparency. Before launch they weren’t shy about saying what they were doing and why, now it’s like pulling teeth. Since we don’t have a PTS all we can do is use the small scraps they give us to head off these bad design choices before they hit live and won’t be going away in the near future.

As for being judgmental, yeah I certainly am. This is a system that should have never made it live. Any system that drastically favors certain builds, classes, guilds, etc needs scrapped and redesigned. If you want your MMO to be successful you don’t discriminate against anyone. The new guild missions is just another example of a system that needs reworked since it discriminates against small guilds. Ascended gear was another system that needed reworked(scrapped completely IMO) to at least give all playstyles a chance at ascended, but we haven’t seen them fix that yet. Again I’m not a programmer but I know it’s fairly easy to add ascended items to a karma/badge/dungeon vendors.

NinjaEd.3946:

I feel like the majority of this thread is bashing on the developers for not fixing everything at once. If you hate it so much then don’t play, if you want them to fix it sooner support them through gem store and post suggestions on how to fix it instead of just demanding some fix you may/may not like. Ideas work together, slandering doesnt work at all.

It shouldn’t need fixing, it should not of been there in a the first place, it is bad design, if you can’t cope with people pointing that out, then perhaps you should avoid threads that might upset you.

If you are going to promote a game on “play your own way”, then it should not be unexpected that people are unhappy that they can’t do that due to poor game design.

Sigh, everyone should just have their own cap, it wouldn’t even be slightly overpowered.