Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

Players have a tendency to take an offhand comment from a “red” post and turn it into a guarantee carved into the side of a mountain in fifty-foot high letters.

Hyperbole.

Some people do take comments as “promises”, I’m not disputing that. But I would argue that it is not the majority of players that do this. In fact, for every post by someone who mentions a “promised” feature, there are often four or five responding posts that point out that nothing was promised. This leads me to believe that this problem is not as insurmountable as people would like to imply.

Bottom line is that if someone interprets general information as a “promise”, that is their own problem. Neither the devs nor the rest of us are responsible for that. That is not a good excuse to have a company policy that hinders the developers’ relationship with the majority of the player community that is perfectly capable of understanding the difference between a preliminary overview of a developing feature and, as you put it, “a guarantee carved into the side of a mountain in fifty-foot high letters.”

Oogabooga.9138:

Thank you, but don’t care as it’s too little too late. The only reason for any of this is because the tag issue went viral. Now that it’s a public issue, Anet did a 180 for good PR. Nothing more, nothing less.

You had plenty of chances to communicate with the players before this and say the exact same thing. It took bad press for you to finally do anything.

A little co incidental that this flood of red also comes the same week that Blizz finally announced a date for their expansion ( altho its more like a contraction and the reason why so many have left THAT game and come to this one)

I love GW2 , but certain issues have been left too long to not mention them, prime example the Mesmer Profession where clearly half the skills do not work as intended, yet all we ever see is “Tooltip” changes. Or Traits that need much higher lvl areas for unlock lvl 30’s traits or impossible tasks in WvW ……

@Chris

First, just to say many thanks for taking the time to respond to the players. I understand that you have to juggle actual real-life work with posting on here, alongside the fact that you clearly use your time at home to communicate with us too, which in itself is proof enough that you care about the game. Much appreciated.

In terms of CDIs, I’ve personally only been a significant part of one – the Ranger CDI which Allie took charge of some months ago. While she communicated with us relatively frequently, many players within the thread felt slightly frustrated that the devs weren’t communicating which of the suggestions were carrying the most weight with them. The thread ended up becoming very crowded and I think a little direction with semi-frequent developer summaries every ~7-10 pages would have provided a great way to keep the thread moving in directions that weren’t obvious dead-ends for the devs. I think more frequent communication from the devs as to which ideas they like and dislike – along with a ‘no promises’ disclaimer of course – would at least help keep the CDIs running in a helpful direction. The Ranger CDI I think ended up as one huge mess of repeated suggestions, arguments and lack of direction – however this can be forgiven simply due to the fact that it was one of the pioneering CDIs and therefore completely new ground for you guys. I’m confident that future ones will be improving upon these however.

From the OP of this thread, it’s understandable why you guys don’t like to talk speculatively about the game, because it can cause upset when things don’t come to fruition. However, being too afraid to speak speculatively can also be a large hindrance to your communication with the playerbase. As per my suggestion with future CDIs and semi-frequent dev summaries within the threads, as long as you give a disclaimer along the lines of “these are some possible options we’re looking into, however there are no guarantees”, the players are being made no false promises, but at least they know which suggestions to expand on and make the thread more productive.

Finally, one aspect of Allie’s communication was a little concerning to many players in the Ranger CDI. When she spoke of Anet’s “design philosophy” for the Ranger (i.e. a sustained damage-type profession with good mobility) – she seemed resolute in keeping it that way and seemed unwilling for it to be altered to address what the community felt the Ranger needed to become a more viable profession. This may very well have been a one-off case, however I think willingness to change or add-to profession philosophies should definitely be a part of the GW2 experience.

Thanks for the update, the communication goes a long way.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Kaos.9162:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Crise.9401:

This has probably been mentioned already, but since I saw no response for it repetition can’t hurt.

Ages ago, in one of the older Ready Up streams, after the last WvW tournament, a CDI regarding WvW seasons/tournaments was mentioned to be “coming within a week” I don’t think I would have missed it if it did. So whatever happened to that?

Hi Crise,

i will double check. That seems like eons ago so please forgive me for my weak memory (-:

Chris

Any updates on this? Did a quick glance through your post history and didn’t see anything, though I might’ve just missed it.

Hey Kaos,

I will be speaking with the guys on Tuesday and will report back.

Chris

After searching through the dev tracker, I found two relevant posts. One was by Mark Katzbach which can be found https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Ready-Up-5-30-12PM-PDT/page/2#post4075516 here and a different one by you which can be found https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-CDI-s-continue-after-Feature-Patch/first#post3839875 here.

I know this is going to go over like a lead balloon, but here goes. One of the issues I had with the previous iteration of CDI’s was the extreme length of some of the posts, leading to threads that were just too much to read. Given the redundancy in suggestions, I’d venture to say I wasn’t the only one who didn’t/couldn’t read everything.

I’m not sure how to fix this, except to suggest that people keep it simple, and not try to lay out every suggestion they have in one post. Even in this thread, there have been several essays. I recognize that people are passionate about their ideas, but for the rest of us, and for the devs who are also reading, shorter posts are probably going to have more impact.

minbariguy.7504:

tolunart.2095:

Players have a tendency to take an offhand comment from a “red” post and turn it into a guarantee carved into the side of a mountain in fifty-foot high letters.

Hyperbole.

Some people do take comments as “promises”, I’m not disputing that. But I would argue that it is not the majority of players that do this. In fact, for every post by someone who mentions a “promised” feature, there are often four or five responding posts that point out that nothing was promised. This leads me to believe that this problem is not as insurmountable as people would like to imply.

Bottom line is that if someone interprets general information as a “promise”, that is their own problem. Neither the devs nor the rest of us are responsible for that. That is not a good excuse to have a company policy that hinders the developers’ relationship with the majority of the player community that is perfectly capable of understanding the difference between a preliminary overview of a developing feature and, as you put it, “a guarantee carved into the side of a mountain in fifty-foot high letters.”

Slight exaggeration, sarcastic humor. I try to avoid taking these things too seriously. When I do that, infractions tend to follow.

However, a year and a half after an offhand comment about a “precursor scavenger hunt” that was never guaranteed to appear, people still post about it as though the company betrayed the players or something. Today in one of the “red” posts I read that blogs about upcoming features were discontinued because of this kind of behavior.

Those who dare to point out the obvious are attacked and insulted, labelled “white knights” and company shills for daring to contradict the ignorant, and the average player still doesn’t know what’s going on despite specific announcements shortly before content is released. Most players ignore the forums, trolls and serial complainers are drawn to them like moths to a flame, and a few individuals who try to maintain a reasonable balance are vulnerable to character assassinations.

Going back to the way it used to be is just throwing more wood on the fire. It’s not going to make the trolls go away, it won’t make players who ignore the announcements suddenly start paying attention, and it won’t calm anyone who is upset when their pet peeve is not addressed quickly enough for thier liking.

Do we have any means at our disposal to ask a few simple questions about some odd things that were changed that were never in patch notes, or why two of the same ‘class’ of item available in the gem store weren’t quite designed the same way, and why, and could it ever be fixed?

I tried submitting a ticket once, and almost got somewhere, but then when I was getting warm, and though the person I was talking to could actually go ‘ask the developers’ (or a phrase he/she used close to that), it went cold and I was told to post here.

The problem is, you folks (developers and CMs) only really jump into the bigger, heady stuff (CDI; big feature pack topics), and there doesn’t seem like there is any room to just get some small things answered here or there. Or maybe there is, and I just don’t understand the process?

@Chris ahh I’ll be sure to have a look through them, I guess naturally with different people involved in different threads they will have varying levels and styles of communication. Thanks again

minbariguy.7504:

tolunart.2095:

Players have a tendency to take an offhand comment from a “red” post and turn it into a guarantee carved into the side of a mountain in fifty-foot high letters.

Hyperbole.

Some people do take comments as “promises”, I’m not disputing that. But I would argue that it is not the majority of players that do this. In fact, for every post by someone who mentions a “promised” feature, there are often four or five responding posts that point out that nothing was promised. This leads me to believe that this problem is not as insurmountable as people would like to imply.

Bottom line is that if someone interprets general information as a “promise”, that is their own problem. Neither the devs nor the rest of us are responsible for that. That is not a good excuse to have a company policy that hinders the developers’ relationship with the majority of the player community that is perfectly capable of understanding the difference between a preliminary overview of a developing feature and, as you put it, “a guarantee carved into the side of a mountain in fifty-foot high letters.”

A big issue is the general lack of (in the past it seems) communication on their end. When a company makes very liberal use of the forums to chat and communicate ideas they are throwing around it becomes much easier to accept things as off the hand comments and ideas rather than something absolutely in the pipeline.

When the amount of communication is reduced to practically once a month, if that, people tend to assume that if they took the time to post it, it must be of fairly high importance and thus a sure thing to look forward to in the future no matter how much it’s implied that it’s not.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to post and thanks for the honesty in your comments.

The reality is that we probably spend to much time thinking before discussing and not enough time sharing the journey with everyone.

I am still thinking this all through and the conversation is really useful so thanks.

Chris

I dunno, perhaps some of it is because I’m dutch (I am also ’ ’ told we are generally perceived as being very direct in communication), but I do know I am passionate and have my heart on my tongue. That combination doesn’t always go well, but I try my best to be aware of the impact my words may have, and edit accordingly.

From my pov. I do not think you take to much time thinking, some things just need more or less time. But what I miss sometimes is the argumentation behind a certain decision, which is indeed the moment you decide to communicate, and seeing that moment tends to be a blog post announcement, it has to be in a certain format… And seeing that moment generally also means that things are definitive, all there is left ‘for us’ is to complain if we do not agree with a choice we seemed to have no impact on. Even if we did have an impact on the choice actually being made. This, to me, is most clear in the whole ‘Commander Tag’ discussion in the WvW forums…

If you see this as ‘part of the journey’, then yes, not having an influence besides providing the initial parameters, and just having to deal with the output. Thus ‘missing the journey’, makes things hard to understand. But if ‘being taken along the journey’ is a mere ‘along for the ride, but keep arms and legs inside at all times’, then there isn’t much value in being taken along… an explanation of why you decided something in hind side would be of equal value.

The problem then, is that we just can’t all agree, so some people will always be disappointed. Yet, some earlier communication, and some leeway towards feedback midway from ANet’s side, might reduce the amount of people in that corner, and while they might still be disappointed, they may well understand ‘why’ something is the way it is. Which will not reduce the disappointment persee, but might reduce the amount of negativity on the forums about it.

Certainly didn’t mean to be offensive with ‘dopes’ – meant it more as a gently chiding nudge, as from a concerned friend.

I wouldn’t put it like ‘headless chickens’ either! But Arghore was essentially right; I think Anet often draws the wrong conclusion from these little confrontations.

tolunart.2095:

However, a year and a half after an offhand comment about a “precursor scavenger hunt” that was never guaranteed to appear, people still post about it as though the company betrayed the players or something. Today in one of the “red” posts I read that blogs about upcoming features were discontinued because of this kind of behavior.

I understand what you are saying, and I fully admit that there is some validity to being cautious. However, I think the example above indicates a failure to manage expectations. If posts regarding the continued absence of the scavenger hunt had been addressed head-on as they appeared, there would not have been this sense of “betrayal”. But simply deciding not to talk about things at all anymore was a knee-jerk overreaction that has had a net negative effect on the community.

I want to emphasize the “managing expectations” part of my above comment, because I believe it is important. This is where I think we should be letting the devs off the hook and looking towards our Community Team. A dev should not have to take time away from their work to refute mismanaged expectations. This is where the Community Team should be taking over, engaging us with any pertinent updates and/or reminders in regards to content that has not yet materialized.

A few people recently have mentioned Gaile Gray’s work as Community Team Lead in “ye olde days”, which in my opinion was usually top-notch. She seemed to really understand the balance between managing expectations, communicating information, and just plain, ordinary fun interaction with the community for the purpose of pumping everyone up and boosting morale when necessary. What she did not do was deliver vague hype about mysterious future features.

This isn’t meant as a criticism of our current Community Team Lead. I realize that the current company policy ties her hands as much as everyone else’s. I’m not sure what the upper management expects in regards to a Community Team that is barely allowed to speak to the community, let alone discuss issues of substance.

In any case, I think a balance of Dev interaction and Community Team interaction is called for, providing company policy can ensure that any interaction is substantive enough to be worthwhile.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

No one is forcing you to do something that you think is pointless. So I would suggest not partaking in the CDIs if you think they are not going to bear fruit.
Chris

I feel for you, devs, you can’t do anything right XD

:P.

Bring on the CDI threads! (and inevitably the complainers.)

Chris, since you are actively posting in this about communication, can you tell us if the Mac client is being looked at? It crashes all the time in large events and there is no active support in the mac support forum.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Taygus.4571:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

No one is forcing you to do something that you think is pointless. So I would suggest not partaking in the CDIs if you think they are not going to bear fruit.
Chris

I feel for you, devs, you can’t do anything right XD

:P.

Bring on the CDI threads! (and inevitably the complainers.)

It’s all good. Looking forward to the CDI to. It’s been a lot of fun chatting this weekend though. Wish I had more time during the week, and thank goodness my wife is understanding.

Chris

Give her my thanks. She is a trooper!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

ananda.5946:

Chris, since you are actively posting in this about communication, can you tell us if the Mac client is being looked at? It crashes all the time in large events and there is no active support in the mac support forum.

If you don’t mind i will get back to you on this on Tuesday.

Chris

Oh, nice. I look forward to reading about it. Thanks.

Just want to chime in and add that I totally agree with the people saying that there needs to be a more measured approach to release of information. What we have now is a guaranteed recipe for disappointment without any of the added benefit of excitement we got from the older roadmaps.

I mean, right now I have zero idea what is going to come in Guild Wars 2 within the next year. None whatsoever in almost any possible regard. Maybe that’s what you’re going for, but it’s definitely not enough to keep me playing if I were to get tired of what’s available to do at any given time, because I have nothing to look forward to.

@Chris, addition

Another thing, which has more to do with the way you design content, than it has to do with communication, is the following…

You have a game with PvE (open world, dungeons, fractals, festivals), PvP, WvW … and in all these formats you have to deal with ‘Novice, trainee, Veteran, skilled & High Skilled’ players. And within these the ‘casual’, ‘regular’, ‘focussed’. The problem is that you somewhat have to please them all, and thus take all of them into account. Now I do understand that taking on everything at the same time (PvE, PvP & WvW) will just drag development out. So in a sense you have to do a lot of this consecutively (though it may make sense to drop in something for another category, every once a while, f/e a mordremoth inspired PvP map or a very expensive multi token dungeon armour)…

What then remains is trying to take into account which kinds of experience levels/types you have within each category. And there I think you focus to much on a certain group to much, so that others feel left out… Two areas where that is most apparent to me, and only as examples, there are numerous threads about them so no need to rehash them:

- The recent backpacks, all focussed on end game, leaving novices/casuals out. But the bigger culprit is the most recent mordremoth backpack. Why? Would it have hurt to make the initial craft a 100lvl, the 2nd 200, the 3rd 300, etc. That way the first backpack would have been available to all fairly easily, and still be a longer term goal/item. It wouldn’t have matter for those with 400+ crafting in all disciplines, but it would have mattered for those far behind.

- The other is ‘skill balance’ and ‘build options’, these are mostly important for the skilled and highly skilled, yet ‘viable builds’ are at the same time very important for the novice and trainee. Currently it seems (based upon feedback) there is a lot of effort towards the novice and trainee levels, while the veterans/skilled/highly skilled run into the limitations of what is possible, and see novice strategies being ‘the best strategies’. This is a system design problem more than a balance problem, and I think it may stem from an over focus on entry level play.

;tldr: It feels like you try and focus on specific groups to often, which makes the other groups feel left out, and in a sense leads to an over focus on some aspect while the others suffer from it. Some of that just can’t be dealt with, as development is a linear process and time can only be spend on one thing at a time, or it will just drag on forever. But in other cases it’s more of a matter of taking all the groups into account, and finding a way (sometimes even very simple) to please as many of them as possible by making the content suitable to at least achieve parts of it on their appropriate level and be rewarded for it, without making it less hard/challenging for the overall thing (people like a challenge and long term goals are fulfilling).

anyways that’s been a part of some feedback that’s been drifting in my mind for a long time, and so far I had not found a suitable place/format to share it. Seeing it felt appropriate here… clarification: it felt appropriate here because the communication issue is part of disappointments, and part of those disappointments are (from my pov) also related to what I described above.

A bit more on the subject of managing expectations. I found an article by Annie Pace Scranton on Forbes.com titled “The Top Five Tips For Managing Client Expectations”.

The “meat” of the article is as follows:

Here are the five steps I always try to follow for managing client expectations:

1. Be Honest From The Get-Go. Though it may sound counterintuitive, I always tell potential new clients in the very first initial conversation about possiblyworking together that there are no guarantees. As with most things in life, there are too many factors at play to make any grandiose promises. I can’t predict whether a producer will like a pitch, or a reporter will quote my client. Although it may feel uncomfortable, I think that saying this clearly and in no uncertain terms, positions the client to take a leap of faith in your work and also helps them to understand the process behind your work.

2. Under-Promise , Over-Deliver. This old adage is one to live by! I promise my clients that they will have immediate & constant access to me and my team; that we will, every day, work on their behalf through pitching and meetings with the media; and that if nothing else, it is guaranteed that they will become known to key members of the media. After that, when big interviews start rolling in, it’s much more appreciated!

3. Anticipate the Client’s Needs Before They Know Their Own Need. This one definitely takes time and practice, but think about it: no one knows your business as well as you do. You know when things are going great and when you need to ramp up your efforts. It’s so important to share that with a client through a simple email stating “I’m going to spend extra time this week working on your project – I really want to get you out there as much as you do.” It can go a long way.

4. Constant Communication. If you’re in the service industry of any kind, that is what you do – serve. That means being bubbly, bright and (almost) always available. While of course it’s important to set boundaries so that you can maintain a rewarding personal life, it’s critical that your clients know they can gain access to you as needed. Hopefully just knowing you’re available and ready to jump on a project as needed will be enough so that your client’s won’t abuse your generousity with time.

5. Reports. Probably not anyone’s favorite task during the week, but reports show a clear delineation of work that was done over the course of a week or month. Remember – reports don’t have to be very long, or in a format that clogs up a lot of your time. A simple email detailing tasks completed for the week shows your clients what they’re paying for, and thus, keeps them happy.

Hopefully, by following these steps, you’ll be on a road to an even better relationship with your clients. By following this process, you’ll most likely achieve better results in your work, too.

I sincerely hope this is helpful.

Shakkara.2641:

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/ArenaNet-Reviews-E255820.htm

Just pointing to this, maybe that helps some players to understand why Anet is struggling and why it is not really the developer’s fault. Pretty hard criticism towards the management and vision of the company. I just hope some of their managers actually read their company reviews.

I was pretty shocked to see they only have ~50 people… I thought Anet had like 300 people and had expectations for new features based on a 300 man strong team. Makes me appreciate the things that they do manage to pull off much more though, but also makes me a bit worried about the future.

Mostly, you’re wrong. http://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-ArenaNet-EI_IE255820.11,19.htm.

Look at that main photo. A few more than 50 people. Also, do some research elsewhere. I am not sure why that website says they have 16-50 people, but that isn’t right.

I know why they do not wish to speak about things ’ in the works" as certain other MMO’s even have tried / are trying, ideas from GW2, example being the biggest MMO mentioned on their forums a month or so ago about ’Dynamic events" no longer needing to be in a group etc etc, sound familiar ?

But it does not exempt Anet from at least saying what fixes etc they are working on, plus anyone with half a brain will be able to see whom copied whom even if they DO say what is in the works !

But saying “There’s a new dungeon on the way!” isn’t something I think their competitors can steal very much from.

Content announcements/teasers != New innovative gameplay

minbariguy.7504:

A bit more on the subject of managing expectations. I found an article by Annie Pace Scranton on Forbes.com titled “The Top Five Tips For Managing Client Expectations”.

The “meat” of the article is as follows:

Here are the five steps I always try to follow for managing client expectations:

1. Be Honest From The Get-Go. Though it may sound counterintuitive, I always tell potential new clients in the very first initial conversation about possiblyworking together that there are no guarantees. As with most things in life, there are too many factors at play to make any grandiose promises. I can’t predict whether a producer will like a pitch, or a reporter will quote my client. Although it may feel uncomfortable, I think that saying this clearly and in no uncertain terms, positions the client to take a leap of faith in your work and also helps them to understand the process behind your work.

2. Under-Promise , Over-Deliver. This old adage is one to live by! I promise my clients that they will have immediate & constant access to me and my team; that we will, every day, work on their behalf through pitching and meetings with the media; and that if nothing else, it is guaranteed that they will become known to key members of the media. After that, when big interviews start rolling in, it’s much more appreciated!

3. Anticipate the Client’s Needs Before They Know Their Own Need. This one definitely takes time and practice, but think about it: no one knows your business as well as you do. You know when things are going great and when you need to ramp up your efforts. It’s so important to share that with a client through a simple email stating “I’m going to spend extra time this week working on your project – I really want to get you out there as much as you do.” It can go a long way.

4. Constant Communication. If you’re in the service industry of any kind, that is what you do – serve. That means being bubbly, bright and (almost) always available. While of course it’s important to set boundaries so that you can maintain a rewarding personal life, it’s critical that your clients know they can gain access to you as needed. Hopefully just knowing you’re available and ready to jump on a project as needed will be enough so that your client’s won’t abuse your generousity with time.

5. Reports. Probably not anyone’s favorite task during the week, but reports show a clear delineation of work that was done over the course of a week or month. Remember – reports don’t have to be very long, or in a format that clogs up a lot of your time. A simple email detailing tasks completed for the week shows your clients what they’re paying for, and thus, keeps them happy.

Hopefully, by following these steps, you’ll be on a road to an even better relationship with your clients. By following this process, you’ll most likely achieve better results in your work, too.

I sincerely hope this is helpful.

I concur with this, this is what Arenanet should have been doing all along, not deciding that talking with us wasn’t worth the effort.

But given Anet’s idiotic policy, I don’t see how they could implement these ideas.
Because it requires them to be honest with us from the get go, and talk to us about future topics, and report to us on these topics as we go along.
None of which they are doing, or seemingly even prepared to do.

In fact their policy prohibits any of these steps.
So is it any wonder why peoples expectations are untenable and disappointment and resentment is the inevitable outcome?

I swear, they are their own worst enemy.

Arghore.8340:

but what surely doesn’t help is validate a toxic post …

And people should basically ignore an attack, or reduce impact of it by responding clear and sane to the possible valid points raised in it. Not go in a counter attack mode, further fueling the debate into an emotional one.

And I’m sorry but I don’t want to know if a person feels hurt, that is not a reason to communicate to anyone once you get past high-school. The thing that is important is whether or not the other person understands you, regardless if (s)he agrees.

And also, and it’s unfortunate, and I wouldn’t have said that above, but once Chris has a red tag on, he is no longer Chris… He is an authority figure from Anet, I mean, do you really think Chris would get all these suck up posts if he were just some normal person here? No… of course not… But with that also comes that people have a right to their opinion and voice criticism, as long as it is formulated in a respectful manner. That is the standard we are going for here right?

That response from the Dev defence fanclub on the other hand, had so much ‘just kitten you simple pizza guy’ draped between the lines that it should just be ignored, like a lil kid throwing a fit for not getting a cookie b4 supper. Let alone see it validated…

Because in a sense the Pizza guy was right, it’s the reason we have this thread right? Because we think Anet needs to communicate more/better. (so that is point one). The other being, ‘are they held to a higher standard’, YOU BET! … Anet staff set the bar to what is acceptable, they express themselves in the way they want to be addressed to themselves… etc. and so on… so really, they are held to a higher standard than Joe Scrubby that customer that can just blab w/e, as long as he doesn’t cross the lines… which lines? well those set by ANet… see how that works…

And indeed, ANet has done a great job in the past, sometimes it slips a bit, but they do Care! As shown by their actions, and as long as you are actually willing to see that they do! … other companies aren’t always the same, depends a lot about the market they are in. But regardless, a company may be able to ignore their customer… yet, lowering oneself to the level of the customer is never an option! At least not in the companies I worked for in the customer service department, that respected themselves and their consumers.

Well, since it was my post you quoted as part of your response on the subject I shall address the matter with you.

Gene Archer’s post gave the impression, to me at least, that he thought the devs who do the actual production of the game are customer service personnel. It has been pointed out to us, on these forums, in the past that this is not the case. That these individuals post on their own time, that forum activity is not part of their job.

I asked several questions of Mr(?) Archer, related to his stated line of work (or at least the general industry) in order to couch the point in terms he had expressed a preference to use in order to point out that not everyone who works for a company is directly involved with customer service. In fact some employees are assumed and expected to not be involved in direct customer interaction. My goal was to point out the difference between a customer service rep, who is being paid to represent the company to its customers, and the production end of the company which is paid to produce a product. I also hoped that Mr Archer would recognize that not choosing to use their free time to work without pay, at a task that they do not enjoy in particular, for the company’s benefit is nothing like a decision to, “hide my head in the sand,” as mister Archer put it.

I was not attacking Mr Archer. Each point in the post was specifically chosen to set out the difference between customer service and production employees as regards to their duties. No qualitative point was made or implied. If one sees more than that, “reading between the lines,” then one is putting it there. At no point did I write, imply, or even think anything even remotely close to, “‘just kitten you simple pizza guy’” in my post. I have worked in the same field as Mr Archer and have nothing but respect for those who put up with all of the negatives inherent to that job.

If you read my post again hopefully you will see:

1) questions posed in an attempt to draw the intended reader into considering the matter from a different perspective while maintaining his choice of analogy.

2) information provided to the intended reader that he seemed to perhaps not possess when he made the post to which I replied.

As to the rest of the subsequent commentary:

I am not a member of any Anet fanclub. I am critical of the company when it seems appropriate to me and supportive when that seems appropriate. Generally more critical than otherwise of late.

Regarding forum toxicity, I just wanted to point out that a lot of that is in Arenanet’s hands – the forum will to a greater or lesser extent be what you/they make of it. What you provide to us as developers/reps here and how you manage and moderate the forum will really shape the environment.

All of us posting here as customers have a responsibility as fellow human beings to treat each other, and you, with respect, and we can absolutely contribute ideas, feedback, fan art and so forth, but I think it is fair to say that the ball is in the host’s court in terms of setting, and maintaining the tone and the rules. Just something else to think about, and perhaps have a look at some other online communities, gaming-related or otherwise, to see what works and what doesn’t for creating a constructive and not-utterly-a-screaming-cesspool-of-humanity public discussion environment.

minbariguy.7504:

tolunart.2095:

However, a year and a half after an offhand comment about a “precursor scavenger hunt” that was never guaranteed to appear, people still post about it as though the company betrayed the players or something. Today in one of the “red” posts I read that blogs about upcoming features were discontinued because of this kind of behavior.

I understand what you are saying, and I fully admit that there is some validity to being cautious. However, I think the example above indicates a failure to manage expectations. If posts regarding the continued absence of the scavenger hunt had been addressed head-on as they appeared, there would not have been this sense of “betrayal”. But simply deciding not to talk about things at all anymore was a knee-jerk overreaction that has had a net negative effect on the community.
.

Expectations were managed as well as they could be. Every few months there was an update, the most recent being before the April update when it was mentioned that precursors were not addressed because of the massive changes to the system which superseded the work that had been done so far. Mostly the wardrobe function, which changed the way a lot of people see Legendaries (once the skin is unlocked it can be applied to any weapon, allowing you to easily dual wield Incinerator or carry Twilight on multiple toons). Demand for the items shot up and people have been complaining about the market ever since.

Imagine how many more kittens would be thrown if the number of people working on Legendaries had double or tripled on top of this increase in demand. The devs are human and they got excited about a project and said too much, too quickly. Once bitten, twice shy.

Now, despite the periodic updates, since it was first mentioned I don’t think a month has gone by without someone posting a demand to know why the “precursor scavenger hunt” or “precursor crafting” hasn’t gone live yet. This started mere weeks after the idea was first mentioned in passing, as though players expected Anet to go from just talking about it to programmed and bug-free in less than a month. They haven’t even released specific details, and people still insist that it’s a scavenger hunt, that precursor crafting is a different system altogether, that Anet hasn’t said anything at all…

If the players posting questions had reasonable expectations it would be easy to give them a reasonable answer. But when they don’t bother to read what has already been posted, when they argue with anyone who tries to explain what’s going on, when they demand that changes be made immediately as though testing and bug-fixing were unnecessary and one guy can handle the whole job before his lunch break, those are not reasonable expectations.

Even within this thread you can see numerous examples of trolling, unreasonable expectations and unnecessary insults thrown directy in the devs’ faces when they try to explain what’s going on from their side of the keyboard. If management were to look at a few of the messages posted in the last few days, they would be more likely to shut down the forums altogether than to loosen restrictions on talking about current and future development plans.

tolunart.2095:

minbariguy.7504:

tolunart.2095:

However, a year and a half after an offhand comment about a “precursor scavenger hunt” that was never guaranteed to appear, people still post about it as though the company betrayed the players or something. Today in one of the “red” posts I read that blogs about upcoming features were discontinued because of this kind of behavior.

I understand what you are saying, and I fully admit that there is some validity to being cautious. However, I think the example above indicates a failure to manage expectations. If posts regarding the continued absence of the scavenger hunt had been addressed head-on as they appeared, there would not have been this sense of “betrayal”. But simply deciding not to talk about things at all anymore was a knee-jerk overreaction that has had a net negative effect on the community.
.

Expectations were managed as well as they could be. Every few months there was an update, the most recent being before the April update when it was mentioned that precursors were not addressed because of the massive changes to the system which superseded the work that had been done so far. Mostly the wardrobe function, which changed the way a lot of people see Legendaries (once the skin is unlocked it can be applied to any weapon, allowing you to easily dual wield Incinerator or carry Twilight on multiple toons). Demand for the items shot up and people have been complaining about the market ever since.

Imagine how many more kittens would be thrown if the number of people working on Legendaries had double or tripled on top of this increase in demand. The devs are human and they got excited about a project and said too much, too quickly. Once bitten, twice shy.

Now, despite the periodic updates, since it was first mentioned I don’t think a month has gone by without someone posting a demand to know why the “precursor scavenger hunt” or “precursor crafting” hasn’t gone live yet. This started mere weeks after the idea was first mentioned in passing, as though players expected Anet to go from just talking about it to programmed and bug-free in less than a month. They haven’t even released specific details, and people still insist that it’s a scavenger hunt, that precursor crafting is a different system altogether, that Anet hasn’t said anything at all…

If the players posting questions had reasonable expectations it would be easy to give them a reasonable answer. But when they don’t bother to read what has already been posted, when they argue with anyone who tries to explain what’s going on, when they demand that changes be made immediately as though testing and bug-fixing were unnecessary and one guy can handle the whole job before his lunch break, those are not reasonable expectations.

Even within this thread you can see numerous examples of trolling, unreasonable expectations and unnecessary insults thrown directy in the devs’ faces when they try to explain what’s going on from their side of the keyboard. If management were to look at a few of the messages posted in the last few days, they would be more likely to shut down the forums altogether than to loosen restrictions on talking about current and future development plans.

I entirely agree.

I’m impressed and surprised by Chris’s continued positivity.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m impressed and surprised by Chris’s continued positivity.

As am I. But he cannot create this change on his own. He needs a culture that supports what he is trying to do, which we are sorely lacking.

tolunart.2095:

minbariguy.7504:

tolunart.2095:

However, a year and a half after an offhand comment about a “precursor scavenger hunt” that was never guaranteed to appear, people still post about it as though the company betrayed the players or something. Today in one of the “red” posts I read that blogs about upcoming features were discontinued because of this kind of behavior.

I understand what you are saying, and I fully admit that there is some validity to being cautious. However, I think the example above indicates a failure to manage expectations. If posts regarding the continued absence of the scavenger hunt had been addressed head-on as they appeared, there would not have been this sense of “betrayal”. But simply deciding not to talk about things at all anymore was a knee-jerk overreaction that has had a net negative effect on the community.
.

Expectations were managed as well as they could be. Every few months there was an update, the most recent being before the April update when it was mentioned that precursors were not addressed because of the massive changes to the system which superseded the work that had been done so far. Mostly the wardrobe function, which changed the way a lot of people see Legendaries (once the skin is unlocked it can be applied to any weapon, allowing you to easily dual wield Incinerator or carry Twilight on multiple toons). Demand for the items shot up and people have been complaining about the market ever since.

Imagine how many more kittens would be thrown if the number of people working on Legendaries had double or tripled on top of this increase in demand. The devs are human and they got excited about a project and said too much, too quickly. Once bitten, twice shy.

Now, despite the periodic updates, since it was first mentioned I don’t think a month has gone by without someone posting a demand to know why the “precursor scavenger hunt” or “precursor crafting” hasn’t gone live yet. This started mere weeks after the idea was first mentioned in passing, as though players expected Anet to go from just talking about it to programmed and bug-free in less than a month. They haven’t even released specific details, and people still insist that it’s a scavenger hunt, that precursor crafting is a different system altogether, that Anet hasn’t said anything at all…

If the players posting questions had reasonable expectations it would be easy to give them a reasonable answer. But when they don’t bother to read what has already been posted, when they argue with anyone who tries to explain what’s going on, when they demand that changes be made immediately as though testing and bug-fixing were unnecessary and one guy can handle the whole job before his lunch break, those are not reasonable expectations.

Even within this thread you can see numerous examples of trolling, unreasonable expectations and unnecessary insults thrown directy in the devs’ faces when they try to explain what’s going on from their side of the keyboard. If management were to look at a few of the messages posted in the last few days, they would be more likely to shut down the forums altogether than to loosen restrictions on talking about current and future development plans.

You think it’s bad now? If you think for a second that somehow, magically the community is going to get any better if Arenanet shut down communication then prepare for disappointment.
If peoples grievance aren’t formally addressed, either in seeing results in game or having it directly discussed by Arenanet in as much detail as possible, then people are going to get very anger. And the more you ignore them, the worse it will become.

They will do anything, yell as load as they possibly can until somebody at Anet responds with anything that could be considered a human response.

Yes, some people are not going to be happy no matter what you do. But radio silence is not the answer, it only alienates people who would otherwise be on your side.

The solution isn’t no communication, it’s more and sometimes different methods to communicate. People want to know, and deserve to know WTF is going on in the game they paid for, or continuing to do so.

tolunart.2095:

Expectations were managed as well as they could be. Every few months there was an update, the most recent being before the April update when it was mentioned that precursors were not addressed because of the massive changes to the system which superseded the work that had been done so far. Mostly the wardrobe function, which changed the way a lot of people see Legendaries (once the skin is unlocked it can be applied to any weapon, allowing you to easily dual wield Incinerator or carry Twilight on multiple toons). Demand for the items shot up and people have been complaining about the market ever since.

Imagine how many more kittens would be thrown if the number of people working on Legendaries had double or tripled on top of this increase in demand. The devs are human and they got excited about a project and said too much, too quickly. Once bitten, twice shy.

Now, despite the periodic updates, since it was first mentioned I don’t think a month has gone by without someone posting a demand to know why the “precursor scavenger hunt” or “precursor crafting” hasn’t gone live yet. This started mere weeks after the idea was first mentioned in passing, as though players expected Anet to go from just talking about it to programmed and bug-free in less than a month. They haven’t even released specific details, and people still insist that it’s a scavenger hunt, that precursor crafting is a different system altogether, that Anet hasn’t said anything at all…

If the players posting questions had reasonable expectations it would be easy to give them a reasonable answer. But when they don’t bother to read what has already been posted, when they argue with anyone who tries to explain what’s going on, when they demand that changes be made immediately as though testing and bug-fixing were unnecessary and one guy can handle the whole job before his lunch break, those are not reasonable expectations.

Even within this thread you can see numerous examples of trolling, unreasonable expectations and unnecessary insults thrown directy in the devs’ faces when they try to explain what’s going on from their side of the keyboard. If management were to look at a few of the messages posted in the last few days, they would be more likely to shut down the forums altogether than to loosen restrictions on talking about current and future development plans.

i find that you guys dont see that clearly when defending.

The devs didnt act out of hand, it was an official vetted blog that talked about precursors and its date.

Also you mistakenly assume that the idea only happened cause a dev mentioned it, the idea happened because there was a large amount of players who didnt like where the precursor aquisition was taking the game. The idea was the result of the interaction between devs and players over what was, at the time, a big issue and still an issue up to today.

Its one of many issues, but it keeps coming up, and is such a big point of contention, that people constantly bring it up. Not saying anything about it doesnt change the reality that it was a problem.

Not talking about your solution to a problem doesnt make it dissappear, and talking about it helps people deal with it. This is reality. You cannot run from your problems by not talking about it, you cannot delete problems by not talking about it. They have falsely identified the problem is talking about something that didnt get delivered, the real problem is that they have yet to solve an existing problem.

Notice, new legendaries were also mentioned in the same blog, and yet there is a lot less outrage and threads about new legendaries, that is because, That issue was not as important. The problem is not that they didnt deliver on a promise, the problem is there has been an identified problem for 1.5 years of high importance to many players, that has not been solved
these threads would have popped up faster and more often without any promises than they would have had such statements not been made.

As for being mean to developers, i agree some people are too combative and argumentive, hurt, etc, But that is life when dealing with a large amount of people. They will react differently. Also one cannot conflate all disagreement, and criticisim as an attack. I take criticism very poorly as well, but when i reflect after the fact, its useful. It is annoying to have things you work towards and put a lot of effort to be insulted, i know this, and yet still, at the end of the day, you have to realize your intent was to create something great, and that feedback is more likely to get you closer to that unreachable goal than to withdraw.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m impressed and surprised by Chris’s continued positivity.

So am I, but it helps if you can keep things in perspective. Count the number of negative comment posters, then check the total number of players who have logged in today. Realize that (logins) = (complainers) x 250,000 or so and it doesn’t seem so bad. You can’t please everyone, and if you try you’ll just burn yourself out trying to run in ten different directions at once.

Here’s a random fact from another dev, John Smith, posted a few days ago.

John Smith.4610:

Rouven.7409:

… you have to love numbers, perhaps you could tease us with some numbers. I don’t know, x bazillion oozes squished since launch and they dropped x gold total. Pretty please with interest on top.

Just this month 7,496,080 Oozes have been dealt with.

Almost 7.5 MILLION oozes killed in three weeks. Not centaurs, or bandits or flame legion soldiers who you find all over the place, but oozes.

Compare this to “this game is dying” complaints. Consider how many players have logged in this month in order to kill 7.5 million oozes.

The thing that bugs me the most is that most of the complaints are simply flat-out wrong statements to begin with. It’s like saying “the worst thing about living in this desert is how it rains all day long,” then getting upset when someone points out that it rarely rains in a desert.

Yoh.8469:

You think it’s bad now? If you think for a second that somehow, magically the community is going to get any better if Arenanet shut down communication then prepare for disappointment..

Ah, hyperbole. I’m familiar with it.

There’s a difference between not saying anything and not saying anything before there is something to say. They have recently made six announcements about the coming update and have more announcements to make.

So, obviously they are talking about the game.

“This is why can’t have nice things” time again. If people were to have reasonable expectations instead of going IwantthisgiveittomeNOWNOWNOW! then they could discuss ideas and plans as they develop. But people are not going to give them even basic courtesy and respect when talking about things they want to do in the future, so they have to be vague about it until they are ready to talk about something that is ready for release.

Just look at the responses to “we’ll do more CDI” comments. Even though it has been pointed out that previous CDIs have helped guide the devs in making changes to the game, people still claim that the devs won’t listen anyway and the CDI idea is a waste of time because all their wonderful ideas were just thrown away. Such comments were made just hours after examples of improvements to the game that came out of the CDI were posted in the same thread.

“Sure it does! It’s raining right now!”

“Um, I’m standing next to you, and it’s not raining.”

“Of course it is! You just don’t want to admit it.”

phys.7689:

The problem is not that they didnt deliver on a promise, the problem is there has been an identified problem for 1.5 years of high importance to many players, that has not been solved
these threads would have popped up faster and more often without any promises than they would have had such statements not been made.

You’ve read the same threads in the BLTC forum that I have. Precursors sell through the TP at an alarming rate (approx. one Dusk per hour), mostly to buy orders. Add the other precursors, even if the less popular ones don’t sell as often, and at least a thousand new Legendaries can be created every week. The complaints are coming from players who have unreasonable expectations in the first place – and the problem is a particularly sticky one that could affect every player in the game if done poorly.

Giving a child a candy bar every time he complains will make him happy, sure. But ten years later, what kind of young adult will you end up with?

tolunart.2095:

Yoh.8469:

You think it’s bad now? If you think for a second that somehow, magically the community is going to get any better if Arenanet shut down communication then prepare for disappointment..

Ah, hyperbole. I’m familiar with it.

There’s a difference between not saying anything and not saying anything before there is something to say. They have recently made six announcements about the coming update and have more announcements to make.

So, obviously they are talking about the game.

“This is why can’t have nice things” time again. If people were to have reasonable expectations instead of going IwantthisgiveittomeNOWNOWNOW! then they could discuss ideas and plans as they develop. But people are not going to give them even basic courtesy and respect when talking about things they want to do in the future, so they have to be vague about it until they are ready to talk about something that is ready for release.

They could talk about any number of subjects that the player base raises and continue to do so, but the choose not to, as it is their policy. I came into this with reasonable expectations, but through their glacial development process, hand waving and mismanagement of their community that I have become so staunchly against them.

They had my trust and respect, but they kittened it away. Trust has to be earned, not given. If they want people on their side, ACT like it.

The CDI is a start, but only that.

The devs have no choice, assuming they want to keep their jobs.