Guild Wars 2

DGraves.3720:

How do you benchmark your own performance if you cannot compare with others?

You can’t possibly, for the most part, do better if you don’t know what is possible or where you stand. Diablo comes to mind; I had a friend who was content at GR38 and thought his build was awesome … until he saw a video of GR60+. He revised.

By the way that is half the problem. Those who profess that their builds are the best have no regulated way to measure them or competition from others. Claims are only claims.

Pretty easy, take note of what you are doing, make alterations and changes see how it compares, repeat and fine tune. Personal performance is easily measured and marked without others being present. You do not need to know how everyone else is doing to improve your own personal performance.

Watching a video of someone doing something different =/= to a DPS meter.

Saying a DPS meter would be used to measure builds is fine, but I see no reason why you would need a group dps meter to do that, post your build, or make a video of it, with a personal DPS meter shown. That solves the “claims are only claims” issue.

As some of you mentioned before there are more 3rd party programs exist for measuring dps. One of them is capable for handling your group datas too (so it can be used upto 10 players, comparable datas eg. in raid). There are many stats it can watch (combat time, activity, critchance, all dmg done, max dmg, avg dps, current dps, condi dps, have timeline graphs, and savable combatlog).
The algorithm (screenshoting your desktop and getting numbers from it, no file or memory access to gw2) used in it (should) not against ToS and also its opensource. Thousands of players already using it , mostly for raids : build/grp setup testing. It can be very useful to check it out what you and your build (and rotation) are capable of. And you can compare yourself with others, learn from them if they seems better. Also useful for new bosses, to find out better grp setup. This tool already exist for a while and no toxicism caused, its mostly used for testing reasons for guilds.
Check it out at gw2specs.com

Miku.6297:

DGraves.3720:

How do you benchmark your own performance if you cannot compare with others?

Pretty easy, take note of what you are doing, make alterations and changes see how it compares, repeat and fine tune. Personal performance is easily measured and marked without others being present. You do not need to know how everyone else is doing to improve your own personal performance.

Watching a video of someone doing something different =/= to a DPS meter.

Saying a DPS meter would be used to measure builds is fine, but I see no reason why you would need a group dps meter to do that, post your build, or make a video of it, with a personal DPS meter shown. That solves the “claims are only claims” issue.

First, you can’t benchmark against yourself unless you believe there is something missing which naturally at some point you will not regardless of whether that is the best point or not. You will think “I have done my best” and be satisfied but at times that satisfaction is false just like my buddy who thought he was awesome but was actually very behind.

Second, video is the poorest source for most things partially because they can (and are) edited and partially because it’s almost impossible to chart behavior and damage because in real combat each match is different! Sometimes it won’t be you who gets one-shotted in that bad position and others it will, because remember that for world record runs it takes many, many tries even if you only see one video. This misleads on two fronts:

1. Skill level. Everything going off perfectly looks natural with a skill level of godhood in a video that’s X minutes long and a world record. Skill doesn’t look so good when it took 168 real hours ( a week ) to actually shoot this because human error and someone dun goofed or even just a bad run of luck.

2. Build value. Some builds are perfect counters to content. That’s just how things go whether it’s PvP or WvWvW or PvE; there are times when a build may just naturally do better in certain scenarios so the player thinks “this is awesome!” when in reality it is awesome some of the time against certain mechanics used by enemy X. Because build value does fluctuate between encounters and even between solo and group play it’s really important that players don’t just sign up for what they see.

Basically if you watch a professional sports player play you, the viewer at home, cannot actually conceive of how difficult it is to do the same thing if you, the viewer, are not in that position. If you are in that position you’re playing though, not watching, in GW2 that’s building your own builds, not watching videos, not being mesmerized by flukes or repeated runs that took hours and hours to get right for five minutes of amazing. But they are watching; they have no idea what level of coordination and trust that actually takes and they want to go to PUG with that?

We both know how that ended.

Leo G.4501:

DGraves.3720:

By the way that is half the problem. Those who profess that their builds are the best have no regulated way to measure them or competition from others. Claims are only claims.

I don’t believe that’s true. There are plenty of online sources to synthesize builds for other players to critique. There are videos showing gameplay. Guides and tutorials. Etc etc. These may not be perfect sources for what you desire but it’s untrue to claim there is no way to gauge performance.

Theory does not equate reality. That’s the main problem. And videos showing gameplay don’t actually provide DPS values so huge spikes might be misleading. Guides are claims ( many of which are done by different people with no unified method for testing ) and many have been shown wrong in the past. There is no true gauge to performance because there are no checks and balances against builds; people submit them from well known guilds, no one talks back thinking it’s automatically the best because it has to be based on reputation, guides are written, and the whole mess starts all over again when someone discovers that they made a slight miscalculation and decides there’s a new best.

These aren’t just imperfect sources, they are godawful terrible ones, making claims that literally ostracize classes because build A or B no longer works and no one wants to take the time to find out if there are any other options. It happens in all games though so no worries.

Leo G.4501:

My point is you don’t need a DPS meter to play to win.

Do you know how the best dps builds were proven?

You don’t ‘need’ anything to play to win but when you are playing to win you use everything. If it can get you a better result then you should use it, no questions asked. That’s why I don’t care about weak statements like ‘discrimination’ or ‘toxicity’. The people that would do these things already are. A group that would kick you based on a dps meter would kick you without one and you likely would not have wanted to play with that group regardless.

The logic of the DPS meter in GW2 makes no sense based on how groups work.

As it stands, an overwhelming majority of party-wide DPS comes from supportive abilities which stack damage modifiers for the rest of the party, and then simply optimizing those effects into as much of a condensed form as possible to enable either more dedicated DPS or more modifier stacking party-wide.

If you had to pick between a thief or a chronomancer, in a mutually-exclusive choice for a raid, if you’re playing properly, you take the chrono. The same is said about a druid, warrior, etc. Sorry, selfish DPS is pointless up to the point where you’re capped on big-hitter modifiers. Since meters do not measure this data, the meters themselves are pointless and add a layer of negativity to the game that is unnecessary.

If you’re beating the raid, you’re doing well enough. If you’re not beating the raid, it’s probably a synergy problem and not a DPS one.

DeceiverX.8361:

If you had to pick between a thief or a chronomancer, in a mutually-exclusive choice for a raid, if you’re playing properly, you take the chrono. The same is said about a druid, warrior, etc. Sorry, selfish DPS is pointless up to the point where you’re capped on big-hitter modifiers. Since meters do not measure this data, the meters themselves are pointless and add a layer of negativity to the game that is unnecessary.

So, since some players will use it incorrectly the players that will use it correctly shouldn’t be allowed to have it? Some people use chat to abuse and harass; should we take away chat for all the people that don’t then?

Leo G.4501:

DGraves.3720:

By the way that is half the problem. Those who profess that their builds are the best have no regulated way to measure them or competition from others. Claims are only claims.

I don’t believe that’s true. There are plenty of online sources to synthesize builds for other players to critique. There are videos showing gameplay. Guides and tutorials. Etc etc. These may not be perfect sources for what you desire but it’s untrue to claim there is no way to gauge performance.

It’s a comparison largely based on perception and you only do so much math on paper before the amount gets unreasonable. This is primarily due to the boon and condition system that work off stacks and with various abilities that apply different numbers of stacks at different points in time that then skew the damage numbers of proceeding abilities or the total damage per second being applied by the current number of condition stacks.

Armor also plays a big factor in the game as well, since it’s a divisor in the damage calculation and not like a flat percentage reduction that’s applied after the calculation like in other games. It’s point in the calculation process also influences other mechanics. For example, there is a certain armor threshold that when reached diminishes the effectiveness of might stacks (because power is a multiplier applied before the division by armor) to be less than the effectiveness of vulnerability stacks (because vulnerability is a flat damage increase applied after the division by armor).

So like, it’s easy for me to pool together clips of fights against only glassy opponents and thus, create a powerful image of a build’s effectiveness that won’t be true when fighting against high armor opponents.

DGraves.3720:

First, you can’t benchmark against yourself unless you believe there is something missing which naturally at some point you will not regardless of whether that is the best point or not. You will think “I have done my best” and be satisfied but at times that satisfaction is false just like my buddy who thought he was awesome but was actually very behind.

I strongly disagree with this. I use to test builds constantly. Testing and changing rotations, seeing if I could beat my personal best. I did this for my own enjoyment, and the performance of others did not, and still does not impact how I feel about it. You are claiming one train of thought or thought process is the only one that all people use; this is simply not the case. Different things motivate people into actions. Just because your buddy was that way doesn’t mean everyone else is to.

DGraves.3720:

Second, video is the poorest source for most things partially because they can (and are) edited and partially because it’s almost impossible to chart behavior and damage because in real combat each match is different! Sometimes it won’t be you who gets one-shotted in that bad position and others it will, because remember that for world record runs it takes many, many tries even if you only see one video. This misleads on two fronts:

1. Skill level. Everything going off perfectly looks natural with a skill level of godhood in a video that’s X minutes long and a world record. Skill doesn’t look so good when it took 168 real hours ( a week ) to actually shoot this because human error and someone dun goofed or even just a bad run of luck.

2. Build value. Some builds are perfect counters to content. That’s just how things go whether it’s PvP or WvWvW or PvE; there are times when a build may just naturally do better in certain scenarios so the player thinks “this is awesome!” when in reality it is awesome some of the time against certain mechanics used by enemy X. Because build value does fluctuate between encounters and even between solo and group play it’s really important that players don’t just sign up for what they see.

And a snip picture of your DPS meter in a party displayed DPS meter avoids all of the potential for misleading? Do you think most people are going to post their screw up dps or low end dps… Or will they show the TOP DPS potential of the build they are showing off. How does you showing your dps and the DPS of those around you (that may not even realize they are being “monitored”) remove potential for misleading?

And of course build power fluctuates between encounters. A party DPS meter would also fluctuate between encounters based on the build and how well it’s played. So in one fight build A might look simply stunning while in another it’s sub-optimal.

DGraves.3720:

Basically if you watch a professional sports player play you, the viewer at home, cannot actually conceive of how difficult it is to do the same thing if you, the viewer, are not in that position. If you are in that position you’re playing though, not watching, in GW2 that’s building your own builds, not watching videos, not being mesmerized by flukes or repeated runs that took hours and hours to get right for five minutes of amazing. But they are watching; they have no idea what level of coordination and trust that actually takes and they want to go to PUG with that?
We both know how that ended.

Actually playing in GW2 is playing the game, with or without using your own build you are still the player. You say “flukes”, and make it sound like you believe everyone is out there trying to mislead or deceive people. There is actually good information out there about builds and play styles as well. So yes there are guides/builds out there that claim to be far better then they are, and videos of people fighting in optimized situations, I just don’t see how a party DPS meter would change that.

We both know how what ended?

The one to Rule.2593:

after seeing the toxicity of many in raids, And I raid a lot…. I’m gonna say no, it’d just be used to discriminate people.

That toxicity will always be present, the presence or absence of DPS meters just change how that toxcicity manifests itself.

In GW2 instead of having DPS meter toxicity we have meta-build toxicity where players are automatically discriminated biased on their build, and to quite honest given the choice of meta-build toxicity vs DPS meter toxicity I’d rather have the DPS meter toxicity because at least DPS meters don’t lie, whereas without meters our current understanding of meta is defined by a bunch of preconceptions, biases, and blind faith in the MetaBattle admins.

I’ll give an example of the benefits of having meters.
I used to do progression raiding in SW:TOR. At one point when we where trying to clear are particularly difficult raid tier I decided to swap out my commando’s spec to a untested spec that by conventional logic was non-meta.
I believed the untested build would be superior for the boss, my raid leader thought it was bullkitten. However after pulling with it, I was able to post the log and proved to the raid group that the experimental build was in fact superior to the old build. My raid leader backed off and accepted that I did in fact know what I was doing.

However if that had happened here in guild wars 2, I would not be able to prove my experimental build and the raid leader probably would have either forced me to return to the old build or kicked me.

DeceiverX.8361:

The logic of the DPS meter in GW2 makes no sense based on how groups work.

As it stands, an overwhelming majority of party-wide DPS comes from supportive abilities which stack damage modifiers for the rest of the party, and then simply optimizing those effects into as much of a condensed form as possible to enable either more dedicated DPS or more modifier stacking party-wide.

If you had to pick between a thief or a chronomancer, in a mutually-exclusive choice for a raid, if you’re playing properly, you take the chrono. The same is said about a druid, warrior, etc. Sorry, selfish DPS is pointless up to the point where you’re capped on big-hitter modifiers. Since meters do not measure this data, the meters themselves are pointless and add a layer of negativity to the game that is unnecessary.

If you’re beating the raid, you’re doing well enough. If you’re not beating the raid, it’s probably a synergy problem and not a DPS one.

You realize your argument is actually supporting DPS meters right?

The thing is we currently have no way to accurately value a comp, we just eyeball it and use anecdotal experience to value stuff. A DPS meter can be run in a raid environment to get a rough idea of how stuff is working.

Also the comment “if you’re not beating a raid, it’s a synergy issue” is misleading. A synergy issue caused by what? Obviously the sum total of the raid members isn’t adding up, but is that because of the entire raid being generally bad, or just one bad apple? Currently we have no way to tell.

Actually your personal story is my point. You used to. You don’t anymore. It has to be constant development in order to be viable, tested all the time, sought as if your life depended on it, because at some point you won’t test it and you will be happy with it but again that may not have been it’s best. We all do what you have done but everyone’s natural tenacity towards that goal has a limit; some people are so vigorous it pretty much never ends and some are so comfortable with whatever they throw together it gets tested once or twice before sealed as “complete”. It isn’t the motivation that concerns me but the reality that we all naturally do stop at some point; this isn’t a bad thing but it is something to consider when dealing with different individuals if using yourself as the personal benchmark. It’s why you don’t use yourself when you’re working out; only the most disciplined individuals succeed when going completely unchecked for their goals because people give up!

You also explained why the DPS meter in a party (though I am not necessarily for it) works better; you can fool anyone with footage and showing your highest achievement no problem but you will be hard pressed to do the same thing to your teammates in live combat. It is actually a two-way mirror; first is you reflecting on yourself and how well you play a role and second is the honest value of your contribution because people lie! Videos are edited! Misdirections are made. Not to say that everyone is dishonest but it isn’t rare nor has it not happened before where people were outright wrong about their builds and rotations and so forth and so on. A live meter means live statistics; I use my PvP statistics for instance for damage dealt and so forth and so on to attune and adjust according to what I think should be happening versus what actually is. The information is invaluable when facing opponents too since you can see if you’re low-end or high-end since points don’t necessarily reflect that accurately.

Also, you say “and of course” like when we watch videos of gameplay we’re thinking “Oh, yes, this is clearly not the norm.” Most people are simply thinking “wow, that’s amazing!” Even on the same boss it will fluctuate with some things being controllable and others not. This gives the power of concrete averaging instead of stupid guesses in the dark where people take high-end numbers and “adjust” them arbitrarily.

As for the flukes comment actually in a hierarchy where there is discrimination based on your profession and nothing more since no one can see your skills, equipment, or traits everyone is out to deceive everyone else. That’s the silent part of the game. The “hardcore” players are likely average but hold themselves in high esteem and thankfully don’t have to prove a thing despite honestly being average or slightly above for the most part and the “whelps” need to play pretend so they can actually run the Raids even if they suck and they know it!

The name of the game is to convince others that you are good. Speedruns are not proof of skill, they are proof of practice, DPS benching is impossible, live-testing is inadvisable, and all-in-all we’re screwed because we don’t have a real metric. Because all information is actually good until proven bad, all popular ideas are acceptable until proven crap, and everything that revolves around hearsay goes away with a solid metric.

As for know how things ended, maybe not, maybe that’s just me; that’d be for the best. But case in point while I am not entirely for any form of DPS meter since people are throwing around the word “meta” like it means “best” (curse you pig latin!) and it would just make them that much lazier I see the appeal because it at least stops those who are just full-of-it from still talking. It also gives a smoother understanding of what’s really happening in-game and understanding and even solidifying how much dps loss a dodge could be worth and/or understanding when to use weapons with appropriate range instead of just playing one style based on the digits right before your eyes.

Because no one wants to give up that juice 5k critical hit even if they do better in the long-run for it. And it turns out as of yet no one has.

Coldtart.4785:

Leo G.4501:

My point is you don’t need a DPS meter to play to win.

Do you know how the best dps builds were proven?

You don’t ‘need’ anything to play to win but when you are playing to win you use everything. If it can get you a better result then you should use it, no questions asked. That’s why I don’t care about weak statements like ‘discrimination’ or ‘toxicity’. The people that would do these things already are. A group that would kick you based on a dps meter would kick you without one and you likely would not have wanted to play with that group regardless.

Well, I’ve yet to use the statements of ‘discrimination’ or ‘toxicity’ and frankly, I’m not even against a DPS meter, I just don’t believe it’s necessary. Still, if you’d ask me, I’d say no.

Still, you haven’t really touched on the one point that I mentioned (and I don’t think anyone else made the point): but this meter really isn’t needed because all it will do is get you where you’re going faster. Is it the pursuit of better performance that drives you? If so, wanting a DPS meter is fine but all it does is nearly hand over the answer. Instead of getting your hands dirty and putting in the work to find and prove what is best, using what tools you already have to find the puzzle pieces, you’d rather a program just give you the answer. Even the answer itself will simply press players to routinely blaze through the content.

So is the fun for you discovering what is optimal? Or simply achieving what is optimal? The DPS meter will certainly get you and many others to the latter most efficiently but then what fun is there to be had then?

Well yes I don’t any more, because I haven’t been able to dedicate much if any time to playing. If I had more then a little time, I’d love to go and test new builds and ideas. I simply do not have that free time at the moment; real life DOES happen. So you are making an assumption about me, which in this case is wrong.

Have you seen the amount of people that would like a way to check personal DPS? Just so they can see how they are doing in each different build etc.

Actually alot of people I know do infact use themselves as the benchmark for personal training… They set their own goals and try to meet them when working out. They do not look around at others to gauge what their personal level should be. Nor do they look at others to make them selves feel good because they are doing “more”.

I also said just taking a snip of your highest dps is misleading as well. If you are talking about sharing builds I highly doubt it would be limited to just the in game groups you happen to meet. Most people would post them etc. A DPS meter is just like a school test; a measure of a persons performance at the given time. Is it 100% accurate measure of their actual ability and potential, probably not. If for any moment anything I typed made you think I actually think a party DPS meter would be a good addition I apologize. I think it would be a terrible addition.

Even if a damage meter is inaccurate to some extent, it’s still far better than anything we currently have.

This game is really mechanically complex. The variables in the various equations are in flux from second to second, not just due to the standard RNG roles that are part of any RPG, but the residual effects of previous abilities that altered boon and condi stack sizes.

Spreadsheets are almost worthless due to this. There is builds in the history of this game that have been underrated just due to perception of the community and inability for advocates of the build to adequately prove it’s effectiveness.

It isn’t an assumption: you stopped. I didn’t imply why you stopped, just that you did, and I completely understand not having the time since I personally don’t myself anymore. It is not a matter of laziness, weakness of will, or inability but just a matter of it being that we all have to stop and make decisions on how we will use our time. We have to allow ourselves to get comfortable at some point with what we are doing in our sparetime fake universes regardless of best or worst. Most just want it to “work”.

Yes, but data is just data until used; not everyone one who gets a book on “How to be a millionaire in one easy step” will follow the direction(s) or even comprehend what to do with it. It’s partially why I’m on the fence on the whole idea myself since numbers are tricky buggers you can make them dance way too many ways. Still, I do acknowledge that it would be useful on the grounds that it is single, and not multi-, target reading. Multiple targets greatly inflate values.

There is a difference between making yourself “feel good” through others and making yourself a personal benchmark and they really don’t relate. I am going to avoid talking about your real people as that may come off as offensive if I doubt them (because, hey, I don’t know them) and instead revert to GW2. When you set a goal, lets say 9k dps solo, which is godawful high and you reach it does that mean you’ve reached the maximum or that you’ve reached the goal? It becomes up to you, once you hit 9k, whether you go further or not. Some will not. Some will. Some will look for 6k DPS. Some will look for 3k~4k. Some will look for 10~12k. Ambition differs and that’s the problem with self-maintained benchmarking behavior.

Well, I can agree that people might (might) talk about their builds but a DPS meter would be like a ruler, not a test, the test is the player’s skill since the same build in two different hands can do completely differently.

But uh … if we’re on the same team … Well, this is awkward! Sorry about that.

MadRabbit.3179:

There is builds in the history of this game that have been underrated just due to perception of the community and inability for advocates of the build to adequately prove it’s effectiveness.

This

I stopped due to not having time… If I had time I would continue. Stopping like your friend because you “think” what you are doing is “great” and stopping because you simply do not have the time are two different scenarios. The other scenario for “stopping” is that many players simply don’t care, they play a build and style they enjoy playing (that’s one of the things that makes GW2 great) a group DPS meter would very possibly have a negative impact on this style of play and the player experience.

As far as my friends go I don’t really mind if you doubt them, honestly I doubt they would mind either. I was just using them as an example of people that train by setting their own pace/goals not by comparing them-selves or their performance to others. As far as the goal vs max, if you set a goal of 9k you reached your goal. If the system limits you to 9k then you hit the max. Ambitions differ that’s certainly true, and I think that’s were we are hung up. I don’t really see that as an issue with self-maintained benchmarking, the point of a personal benchmark or goal is to live up to your own ambitions or goals. Some people set high goals, others set mid range, and some set low. No one way is right or wrong, what I don’t like about the group DPS meter is that takes your personal performance and makes it public knowledge. The player is now being measured against others.

But that ruler or measurement of potential DPS would be used as the basis for the test of the players skill.

^^; Yea it seems like we are~ different reasons but the same over all stance on the issue.

Firstly: break bars.

Secondly: doesn’t matter how high your dps is if you spend the fight lying on the ground. I see many glass cannons melting like snowflakes when faced with difficult content.

Edit: thirdly, boon stacking. 25 stacks of AOE might provides a huge dps bonus that isn’t going to be picked up by any simple dps meter.

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

The logic of the DPS meter in GW2 makes no sense based on how groups work.

As it stands, an overwhelming majority of party-wide DPS comes from supportive abilities which stack damage modifiers for the rest of the party, and then simply optimizing those effects into as much of a condensed form as possible to enable either more dedicated DPS or more modifier stacking party-wide.

If you had to pick between a thief or a chronomancer, in a mutually-exclusive choice for a raid, if you’re playing properly, you take the chrono. The same is said about a druid, warrior, etc. Sorry, selfish DPS is pointless up to the point where you’re capped on big-hitter modifiers. Since meters do not measure this data, the meters themselves are pointless and add a layer of negativity to the game that is unnecessary.

If you’re beating the raid, you’re doing well enough. If you’re not beating the raid, it’s probably a synergy problem and not a DPS one.

You realize your argument is actually supporting DPS meters right?

The thing is we currently have no way to accurately value a comp, we just eyeball it and use anecdotal experience to value stuff. A DPS meter can be run in a raid environment to get a rough idea of how stuff is working.

Also the comment “if you’re not beating a raid, it’s a synergy issue” is misleading. A synergy issue caused by what? Obviously the sum total of the raid members isn’t adding up, but is that because of the entire raid being generally bad, or just one bad apple? Currently we have no way to tell.

And a DPS meter isn’t going to fix either of those issues. Top-tier groups – who this tool would be aimed for – don’t and shouldn’t eyeball damage output. There’s a ton of math involved to examine the theory. Then testing. Then applying it. It only holds value when formal testing of theories is being performed, not as a means to judge who is responsible for a failing group and kick them. My guess is that pugs don’t do math very often or test new theories, and idiots often take and abuse features to measure success by arbitrary if not even blatantly incorrect means – such as AP/class/ascended stat requirements – remember when rangers got kicked from every single dungeon because they didn’t contribute enough berserker DPS? I do. Turns out they offered some of the best group damage boosting in the game, yet groups demanded more warriors and thieves because of their bigger numbers and thus “higher DPS yields” if such a system would exist.

The value of a comp is whether or not you beat the content. If you’re raiding with pugs, you take that risk, and frankly, I’d rather see it that way. If people raiding want to learn to raid properly, they fail, they do out the math, and they learn with experience and working together. This is how dungeons were at release when exotics were few and far between for the first few weeks. I remember struggling a lot with CoE in blues and greens in pug groups with no proper builds that didn’t know to stack Alpha (or recognize the merits of stacking) because such strategy hadn’t been established. Everyone died a lot. Eventually, however, people just got better and the content was beaten. You don’t need to kill the boss before phase 1 ends because of “l33t d33ps”. That’s not even the point of raids. Trivializing content by following someone else’s strategies and math defeats the point of hard content. A DPS meter only supports that ideology.

This simply isn’t needed to make the game more fun and would pull even more developer resources away from actual content.

And what if you kick someone doing a little less dps over someone who is pure zerk but the pure zerk dies alot?

You kicked out sustained damage from 100 to 0% for someone who lasts til say 75% then I dead for the rest of the fight xD

or what if the pure zerker generates less boons or auras
or takes more damage, ‘stands in fire’ more,
or ignores people who are downed,
or puts personal dps over an opportunity to heal someone else who looks low,
or has less skills to use on breaks because he must be top dps
or is one of those idiots that is too obsessed with meters and creates drama
or chooses dps when an aura or boon for the team would be better
or is a leader who is not an expert in a profession and starts telling people what to do based on a dps meter, not appreciating any of the above.

I still think theres no need for a dps meter in this game other than for people whos sole goal is to stack as much power and ferocity as possible, might and dmg modifiers so they can attack a light armored boss and get the “worlds best dps” video on youtube..

and then others like that will try to top it off with their own youtube video featuring their own favorite class outdpsing the previous guy…

A dps meter in this game serves no purpose what so ever. Learn you the enconter, learn your class and rotation and you will make the best dps possible. How much exactly was it? Nobody cares, you got the dungeon/fractal/raid boss down and got the loot.

Also, there is no gear progression in this game, so unless you want to see how much dps you make as a lvl 35 wearing lvl 35 rares in ACp1 compared to the same instance with full ascended lvl 80 zerker gear, there is no real need for it

There is at least no reason why there is not a personal DPS meter,it would benefit casual players as much as the elitist to find optimal skill rotations on there own rather than always read some math guides that you cant test on your own..

A DPS meter would be awesome!

……..

If people weren’t such filthy, single-minded, impatient, loathing, pricks. :\

Personally, I’d be for it. If I saw someone in a DPS role outputting poorly, I’d try to help them out and figure out ways they could improve. But from what I understand, I am in the minority. For most, it would boil down to “lol, U DPS sux scrub L2P” — ‘kick’

Killface.1896:

There is at least no reason why there is not a personal DPS meter,it would benefit casual players as much as the elitist to find optimal skill rotations on there own rather than always read some math guides that you cant test on your own..

It would in a perfect world. But people more often solve the sub-optimal problem with kicks, rather than advice.

Razor.9872:

It would in a perfect world. But people more often solve the sub-optimal problem with kicks, rather than advice.

Or if “advice” is given the delivery needs work. xD

Miku.6297:

Razor.9872:

It would in a perfect world. But people more often solve the sub-optimal problem with kicks, rather than advice.

Or if “advice” is given the delivery needs work. xD

Haha, true, true. I find it interesting that when I see people trying to “convince” or “improve” someone of something they need to do, the first thing they spout is an insult. Because calling one a scrub/noob/casual/kittenty-player/kitten -pug/failure is sure to make them listen to your advice. :P

This has been discussed to death and they have firmly said NO! I think anyone who makes these posts should be banned from the forums because frankly it is a bloody waste of time beating the same dead horse. Do a bloody history check, there is nothing anyone could add to this topic that hasn’t been regurgitated to the nth degree!

Vlad Morbius.1759:

This has been discussed to death and they have firmly said NO!

I find it interesting that Anet would give a firm “no” and at the same time notify the client of all physical attack/heal data going on around it… specifically the skill, the source, the target, and for how much it hit. For everyone, by everyone, within a radius bigger than what you can target.

It may not be ToS friendly to get this data, however it’s helped me a fair bit to know who in my raid failed which mechanic and how many times, all without them needing to have any external program running. Those who know what I’m referring to know that it does not include condition ticks and some traits, however it’s still partially useful to eyeball the damage and compare it to a benchmark you can establish run to run to see how well someone is doing or what effect shuffling parties has.

Razor.9872:

Killface.1896:

There is at least no reason why there is not a personal DPS meter,it would benefit casual players as much as the elitist to find optimal skill rotations on there own rather than always read some math guides that you cant test on your own..

It would in a perfect world. But people more often solve the sub-optimal problem with kicks, rather than advice.

Personal DPS meter would only show you your DPS so that ’’KICK’’ cant happen.

And I almost sure more people would help rather than kick if some1 have really low dps output at least that what I think of the Anet community

Killface.1896:

And I almost sure more people would help rather than kick if some1 have really low dps output at least that what I think of the Anet community

I wish I could have that much faith in the community too! Though I agree kicking may not be the first response for someone that others think is doing really poorly, but trash talk/insults often are.

FYI- I didn’t bump this other thread, it was merged.

Just saw this on Reddit by Nike…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lm6-cebLsns

Think it’s time to port this dps meters to live, not just for raids, and let players create apps to provide and sort out all types of useful info.

Almost 2017 peeps, it’s time to be transparent with stats.

I think the design goal ArenaNet had in mind was that stats didn’t matter in completing content. Which until the raid came out, that was true. There wasn’t a single piece of content that required any sort of specific gear, perhaps maybe Dwayne boss on p4… Maybe.

Now with the raid its more difficult to say that. There ARE DPS checks, almost the entire thing really.

Personally, i think I am on the fence. I have never been kicked from a raid group, only because the groups I’ve been in have never had DPS issues, but I know full well I have the lowest DPS in the group and often probably lower than what’s expected, so I’d probably be a victim :p

Can we get a DHM? (Dead horse meter) the more you beat it the higher your score goes? I’m not sure if having a high score or low score would be better though.

This has been brought up and meets the same reaction every time.

As I have said in every other DPS meter post, I’m strongly against it. The opt in API meter works for people that care that much. I watched some of the video, honestly the only worth while thing he said is the dps meter would show who REALLY isn’t pulling there weight; which is true… The question if players should be “monitored” by other players is the issue I have with it. Yes elitism (the negative kind) exists in Gw2 today, how ever, the video maker must be living under a rock to say that a DPS meter would not encourage or in increase the amount of that negative attitude.

Honestly I just want to be able to print the combat tab to a text file. :/

It’s very simple imo, if the only content you need DPS meters are raids then only let them be used in raids.
And if Anet, as well as the casual pug-only community is scared off them, make them a guild only tool.
Or better yet, make them a brand new guild upgrade (you can research really early), and have a restriction that 50% or more of the group need to be from the same guild.

It really saddens me that this game doesnt allow addons, there could be so much QoL that could come from them.
A DPS meter is one example, something like WoW’s TellMeWhen or Weakauras2 is another thing, that doesnt hurt the game but is insanely helpful QoL.

Miku.6297:

Can we get a DHM? (Dead horse meter) the more you beat it the higher your score goes? I’m not sure if having a high score or low score would be better though.

So, on a scale of OMG-Stop to Mounts, where does DPS Meter fall? :P

Dominik.5162:

It’s very simple imo, if the only content you need DPS meters are raids then only let them be used in raids.
And if Anet, as well as the casual pug-only community is scared off them, make them a guild only tool.
Or better yet, make them a brand new guild upgrade (you can research really early), and have a restriction that 50% or more of the group need to be from the same guild.

It really saddens me that this game doesnt allow addons, there could be so much QoL that could come from them.
A DPS meter is one example, something like WoW’s TellMeWhen or Weakauras2 is another thing, that doesnt hurt the game but is insanely helpful QoL.

Raids aren’t the only area of the game where stats are important to players. I certainly would like to know incoming and outgoing direct damage, crit damage, condi damage, pet damage, healing… for all areas of the game. There are a plethora of numbers that would be useful to have organized and know for live combat scenarios. This info is also useful because we can have fact based conversations with players and devs with regard to profession performance.

Like Swagger said, it is nice to know that information, the combat tab helps but is often cluttered unless specifically customized which can be confusing

They need to first improve the combat log. Some types of damage aren’t even displayed. Once the log is in order, they simply need to support writing it to a text file, which can then be used to make external utilities.

Unfortunately, if ArenaNet does ever implement a DPS meter themselves, it’ll probably be locked behind a guild upgrade or something and be as simplistic as the training area. Imagine if open world bosses showed a scoreboard at the end like certain other MMOs. 90% of the participants would probably have less than half the damage of the top.

The best thing a dps meter can do is show us the actual dps in Raids. So is really an Engineer THAT low? Is an Elementalist THAT high? In an actual setting the difference might not be high at all but we simply don’t know, people just see the DPS checks on a static golem and take the dps result for granted. The real world is much different, and adding a DPS meter has the great potential of removing the pug perception that certain builds don’t deal enough damage.

If a DPS meter isn’t implemented for the game itself, allowing those guys who are running the beta versions of the Raids to get a DPS meter (and only them) would go a long way of helping with discrimination against certain builds. At least let them do actual tests, in actual content and not on a stationary target that doesn’t fight back and doesn’t have any mechanics.

Swagger.1459:

Dominik.5162:

It’s very simple imo, if the only content you need DPS meters are raids then only let them be used in raids.
And if Anet, as well as the casual pug-only community is scared off them, make them a guild only tool.
Or better yet, make them a brand new guild upgrade (you can research really early), and have a restriction that 50% or more of the group need to be from the same guild.

It really saddens me that this game doesnt allow addons, there could be so much QoL that could come from them.
A DPS meter is one example, something like WoW’s TellMeWhen or Weakauras2 is another thing, that doesnt hurt the game but is insanely helpful QoL.

Raids aren’t the only area of the game where stats are important to players. I certainly would like to know incoming and outgoing direct damage, crit damage, condi damage, pet damage, healing… for all areas of the game. There are a plethora of numbers that would be useful to have organized and know for live combat scenarios. This info is also useful because we can have fact based conversations with players and devs with regard to profession performance.

I agree with you.
All I am saying is that I rather have it in raids (or even limited there) than not at all.

A DPS meter woul dbe pretty stupid, and I will explain why.

Some professions, and I will take Guardian as an example, do rather good DPS with almost no rotation needed at all.

Do you know what Guardian max DPS rotation is?

It’s Hammer auto-swing, and that only. Guild Wars 2 has never really been about rotations and max DPS, but instead using skills with different functions that can respond to different situations, aka; cripple when needed, protection when needed, a stun when needed.

Of course, some abilities only bring damage, but not all.

Some professions have to work their absolute hardest to pull out good DPS, while a profession like Guardian only has to auto-swing Hammer.

It’s stupid.

Farzo.8410:

A DPS meter woul dbe pretty stupid, and I will explain why.

Some professions, and I will take Guardian as an example, do rather good DPS with almost no rotation needed at all.

Do you know what Guardian max DPS rotation is?

It’s Hammer auto-swing, and that only. Guild Wars 2 has never really been about rotations and max DPS, but instead using skills with different functions that can respond to different situations, aka; cripple when needed, protection when needed, a stun when needed.

Of course, some abilities only bring damage, but not all.

Some professions have to work their absolute hardest to pull out good DPS, while a profession like Guardian only has to auto-swing Hammer.

It’s stupid.

You’re wrong, the highest dmg build on Guardian is Scepter/Torch, next comes the Scepter+Sword/Torch build not the Hammer support build.
Hammer is acutally the lowest DPS of the 3 builds you can do.
The other 2 builds definitely dont have a hard rotation but it isn’t just AA and drop Traps once in a while.
So you don’t have a point, right? Right!!

No. Don’t agree. Maybe for raids, and staging areas, at most. But even then, combat effectiveness in this game is about more than DPS because it doesn’t use a strict role system, depending on your profession and build. This type of thing would just result in a lot of shallow elitism.

Einlanzer.1627:

I think it makes sense to have them for raids, and for a staging area to test builds. They should not be allowed anywhere else. They create way too much unnecessary elitism.

Agreed, the raids are the only content that aren’t part of the “play however you want”-routine, but rather the “play the most perfect model”-routine. Which is fine, it’s just one game aspect. but if it’s like that, we should have to proper tools to measure it

Einlanzer.1627:

No. Don’t agree. We should maybe have them for staging areas, but combat effectiveness in this game is about more than DPS, depending on your profession and build. This type of thing would just result in a lot of shallow elitism.

Why would it matter where you could use them?

Raids are literally the only place where dps matters. How would being able to use a dps meter elsewhere somehow create elitism?
Are you seriously afraid that someone is going to come up to you in Queendale and start smacktalking your dps?

Sometime I wonder if all the anti-meter, anti-log people have never actually played in a game with a dps meter.

If it was kept to raids/staging areas.

Crinn.7864:

Raids are literally the only place where dps matters. How would being able to use a dps meter elsewhere somehow create elitism?
Are you seriously afraid that someone is going to come up to you in Queendale and start smacktalking your dps?
Sometime I wonder if all the anti-meter, anti-log people have never actually played in a game with a dps meter.

They have, it shows because they are fully aware that even if it doesn’t really matter in dungeon/fractals etc, people will still “monitor” and still criticize others play if it is possible.

I’ve played plenty of games with dps meters, and I’ve seen it happen plenty of times. Even if it doesn’t “matter” if someone thinks someone else isn’t in their opinion pulling their weight, frequently they WILL make time to comment about it.