Raids are literally the only place where dps matters. How would being able to use a dps meter elsewhere somehow create elitism?
Are you seriously afraid that someone is going to come up to you in Queendale and start smacktalking your dps?
Sometime I wonder if all the anti-meter, anti-log people have never actually played in a game with a dps meter.
They have, it shows because they are fully aware that even if it doesn’t really matter in dungeon/fractals etc, people will still “monitor” and still criticize others play if it is possible.
I’ve played plenty of games with dps meters, and I’ve seen it happen plenty of times. Even if it doesn’t “matter” if someone thinks someone else isn’t in their opinion pulling their weight, frequently they WILL make time to comment about it.
Yes, this. It does little good and just ruins everyone’s fun by enabling dumb kitten elitists.
If I’m being sincere about why dps meters are bad for GW2, I could sum it up in one word.
Might.
Beyond tl;dr, some classes bring much more support, but their boons won’t attribute the damage done to the boon providers, only to the beneficiary. Some characters are much better supporting boon-factories but get less actual damage, and yet somehow the star is the selfish meter-kitten with “a good rotation”? Until a combat log can sort that out, it’s not really worth it.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
If I’m being sincere about why dps meters are bad for GW2, I could sum it up in one word.
You know that the difference between a full buffed Elementalist and a self-buffed Elementalist is about x3 damage? The difference between having a buffer and not having one will show very very well on the dps meter and the last people who will have any kind of issue with the meter are the offensive buffers. It’s obvious even now, without a meter, how powerful those offensive buffs are in the game as they literally triple the dps, which means 4 dps builds fully buffed can deal as much damage as 10 dps builds without damage buffs. That won’t change with a dps meter.
Did ANet publicly tell everyone that there are DPS meters in Alpha, or did Nike just leak that info?
at what time stamp in the video did he actually say there was a DPS meter in alpha?
At the start of the video he says there was a 3rd party dps meter that was released, it does read memory and is 100% in violation of the ToU and could result in action being taken on your account.
I was just wondering where he said there was an official one in alpha.
Did ANet publicly tell everyone that there are DPS meters in Alpha, or did Nike just leak that info?
at what time stamp in the video did he actually say there was a DPS meter in alpha?
At the start of the video he says there was a 3rd party dps meter that was released, it does read memory and is 100% in violation of the ToU and could result in action being taken on your account.
I was just wondering where he said there was an official one in alpha.
Edit: Someone helped me out by stating it was at 5:47 in the video.
Also, in his video someone commented, “I wonder how DPS meter looks on alpha servers.” Nike responded by saying, “Maybe some of the raid testing guilds or devs will chime in.” That made it seem like both of them knew that DPS meters are in Alpha. Maybe I’m reading into it too much
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
Did ANet publicly tell everyone that there are DPS meters in Alpha, or did Nike just leak that info?
at what time stamp in the video did he actually say there was a DPS meter in alpha?
At the start of the video he says there was a 3rd party dps meter that was released, it does read memory and is 100% in violation of the ToU and could result in action being taken on your account.
I was just wondering where he said there was an official one in alpha.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
With your thought process on this there should be no MMOs or other Multiplayer games because of the potential toxicity will always outweigh the good, Toxicity has been in this game since the earliest inception it hasn’t raised or lowered except for perceived toxicity. Plus people have shot down the use of personal only DPS meters that don’t show anyone else’s numbers because “reasons”…
It’s better to have more tools than not to have enough.
Raise have been done with out DPS meters for a year now, so why do we need it again? Seeing as people have said raods can be done in green gear, a DPS meter is not needed. The proof is there.the only reason for people wanting DPS meters are so they can point fingers at people when the group fails to down a boss. If you down the boss, no one will care what the DPS from the party members was, the job got done.
The other reason for a DPS meter is for ego. People want to brag they did the most damage. The game has survived this long with out one, I see zero reason to add one.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Iliaz
Team Aggression [TA]
Immortal Kingdom [KING]
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
With your thought process on this there should be no MMOs or other Multiplayer games because of the potential toxicity will always outweigh the good, Toxicity has been in this game since the earliest inception it hasn’t raised or lowered except for perceived toxicity. Plus people have shot down the use of personal only DPS meters that don’t show anyone else’s numbers because “reasons”…
It’s better to have more tools than not to have enough.
Of course it will always be in these games. I’m saying, don’t provide in game tools that make it considerably worse.
Yes, these tools can be very useful, especially with challenging content – but anyone that has played MMOs for any length of time knows that isn’t how most leaders/players use them. The good simply doesn’t outweigh the bad.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Please, you really don’t need that in GW2. If a boss is going to do a skill that will one shot you, there is alway a tell tail animation before hand, failing that there are hit markers on the floor, if you miss them, you are not paying attention. You don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that. If people do maybe they need to be playing simple games, like Mario or Sonic.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Please, you really don’t need that in GW2. If a boss is going to do a skill that will one shot you, there is alway a tell tail animation before hand, failing that there are hit markers on the floor, if you miss them, you are not paying attention. You don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that. If people do maybe they need to be playing simple games, like Mario or Sonic.
So what’s your point here? Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing as that is everything you are able to do?
Iliaz
Team Aggression [TA]
Immortal Kingdom [KING]
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Please, you really don’t need that in GW2. If a boss is going to do a skill that will one shot you, there is alway a tell tail animation before hand, failing that there are hit markers on the floor, if you miss them, you are not paying attention. You don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that. If people do maybe they need to be playing simple games, like Mario or Sonic.
So what’s your point here? Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing as that is everything you are able to do?
If you can mot see my point then maybe you need to re read what I said, in some games DPS meters are useful, Guild Wars 2 is not a game where it would be useful for the reasons you gave why it would be good. I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it to you.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Please, you really don’t need that in GW2. If a boss is going to do a skill that will one shot you, there is alway a tell tail animation before hand, failing that there are hit markers on the floor, if you miss them, you are not paying attention. You don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that. If people do maybe they need to be playing simple games, like Mario or Sonic.
So what’s your point here? Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing as that is everything you are able to do?
If you can mot see my point then maybe you need to re read what I said, in some games DPS meters are useful, Guild Wars 2 is not a game where it would be useful for the reasons you gave why it would be good. I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it to you.
It would be useful, maybe not to you but it would be useful.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Please, you really don’t need that in GW2. If a boss is going to do a skill that will one shot you, there is alway a tell tail animation before hand, failing that there are hit markers on the floor, if you miss them, you are not paying attention. You don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that. If people do maybe they need to be playing simple games, like Mario or Sonic.
So what’s your point here? Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing as that is everything you are able to do?
If you can mot see my point then maybe you need to re read what I said, in some games DPS meters are useful, Guild Wars 2 is not a game where it would be useful for the reasons you gave why it would be good. I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it to you.
The thing is that you’re wrong.
Iliaz
Team Aggression [TA]
Immortal Kingdom [KING]
If I’m being sincere about why dps meters are bad for GW2, I could sum it up in one word.
You know that the difference between a full buffed Elementalist and a self-buffed Elementalist is about x3 damage? The difference between having a buffer and not having one will show very very well on the dps meter and the last people who will have any kind of issue with the meter are the offensive buffers. It’s obvious even now, without a meter, how powerful those offensive buffs are in the game as they literally triple the dps, which means 4 dps builds fully buffed can deal as much damage as 10 dps builds without damage buffs. That won’t change with a dps meter.
Completely misses the point I was making. It’s not about full-buffed versus self-buffed. An optimized group is going to focus on having all 25 stacks, fury, etc at all times. But the contributions to those stacks isn’t even. The person doing the buffing does not get credit for his boon sharing on a dps meter. The person who does the damage gets the credit, even if he doesn’t contribute a single stack of Might, because two or three others did that for him. Until a dps meter gives dps credit to the ones doing the boon-sharing, it will be an inaccurate representation of the contribution.
The only class that might not get the dps-shaming is a decently built chronomancer, since alacrity is a unique boon, whereas Might pops out like candy corn. Chronos don’t have to live up to the same dps markers, because we know they provide that unique benefit. They only need to compete with other chronos.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Yup, and that stuff would be incredibly helpful to gain info in wvw and spvp.
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
A year and a half ago, the idea of dps meters would have been shot down on the forums pretty much immediately – and rightfully so.
That is the same way I feel about them today. While some would use them productively, the last thing we need is another tool for hateful and toxic players to shame or belittle others – and we all know that is exactly what would happen (because many of us have seen it time and again in other games – and because we can all probably identify at least a few players in GW2 now that would use it exactly that way).
DPS meters can be used for good reasons – but those reasons will never outweigh the potential toxicity they would bring to the game. They need to be kept as far from GW2 as absolutely possible.
No, you are wrong.
Fully fledged out DPS meters like Skada in WoW and the one i forgot the name of in Final Fantasy do more than just show DPS.
Additionally they show Damage done, HPS, Healing done, Healing recieved, Interrupts done, damage recieved (and by what skill of the boss/trash mob they got hit).
A tool like this is incredibly helpful to work on mistakes you might not even notice, it makes evaluating a failed boss attemp so much easier.
DPS meters in the sense of “do 30k DPS or you’re out” are loooong gone, so stop being stuck with your limited mindset
Please, you really don’t need that in GW2. If a boss is going to do a skill that will one shot you, there is alway a tell tail animation before hand, failing that there are hit markers on the floor, if you miss them, you are not paying attention. You don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that. If people do maybe they need to be playing simple games, like Mario or Sonic.
So what’s your point here? Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing as that is everything you are able to do?
If you can mot see my point then maybe you need to re read what I said, in some games DPS meters are useful, Guild Wars 2 is not a game where it would be useful for the reasons you gave why it would be good. I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it to you.
A Skada-like dps meter would be great and additional things like boon uptime n such. Unfortunately it will just never happen due to people that barely raid, don’t raid at all, or had a “bad experience” in another game a long time ago would come out the wood work just to put it down and claim that it’s “toxic” and “elitist”. As seen in this merged thread.
If I’m being sincere about why dps meters are bad for GW2, I could sum it up in one word.
Might.
Beyond tl;dr, some classes bring much more support, but their boons won’t attribute the damage done to the boon providers, only to the beneficiary. Some characters are much better supporting boon-factories but get less actual damage, and yet somehow the star is the selfish meter-kitten with “a good rotation”? Until a combat log can sort that out, it’s not really worth it.
The players that make the meta are well aware what utility the various professions bring, and will account for that in setting benchmarks for that profession running that utility-providing build. PUG players that copy the meta may or may not know the optimal DPS numbers for the various spots in the raid, but they will know which professions are in the meta and what they need to execute. They should also know not to expect as much DPS from a profession brought for its support than one brought for its DPS.
The problem comes in when PuG players think they know what they’re doing, but don’t. These are the guys that are going to act in ignorance. They’ll kick based on erroneous assumptions. They might kick that Might provider and then wonder why everyone’s DPS went down. Ignorant players are going to find a reason to blame someone else for problems whether there is a meter or not.
What a meter would do is provide the meta drivers with a tool to more easily evaluate the changes each balance patch brings. It would also provide information to groups who have some understanding of what’s going on that would allow them to diagnose problems and fix them — whether that’s through kicking (in PuG’s) or education and practice in dedicated groups.
Even as a non-raider I can see Nike’s point. There is going to be wannabe/elitist kicking whether there is a meter or not. Why not remove one source of ignorance, even if you cannot remove all sources of ignorance?
Player X thinks ‘dps’ is really important and uses a meter, and is very opinionated about it. Player 2 values balanced gameplay and is less concerned with min maxing 1 stat and more concerned with the overall group progress, including boon distribution etc. Player X tries to change how player 2 plays, or worse tries to force the issue.
And this is why DPs meters are a bad thing (unless personal only)
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
Let me ask a question. How many hard core MMO players faithfully used a DPS meter in other MMO’s to help gear and stat your characters?
I know I use DPS meters in games that have them all the time. Its a great way to fine tune your build to put out the absolute best DPS and it makes you feel good when you see an increase after putting in hours of farming for that one upgrade you have been working towards for some time.
Even if the DPS meter was for your eyes only, thats fine. I know I have had fun with other players on seeing who can out DPS who but thats just for fun.
A DPS meter that all can see also helps with those players that feel they can go into an instance and just auto attack instead of learning good rotations. Players don’t want people see them being a carry and not giving their all.
This is all why I would like to see DPS meters of some sort built into GW2…
I vote “No” – /not signed.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
The one thing I would comment about that is an alpha servers uses =/= to the same uses as the live game.
Players should have access to the data and statistics the game provides. Asking for more is one thing, demanding and saying it “should” etc is entitlement.
Are people clearing all content without dps meters… If the answer is yes, then they probably aren’t a necessity.
On a silly note, why someone would make a video claiming many raiders use something breaks the ToU… Isn’t that just begging for A-net to at least investigate many of these players?
Player X thinks ‘dps’ is really important and uses a meter, and is very opinionated about it. Player 2 values balanced gameplay and is less concerned with min maxing 1 stat and more concerned with the overall group progress, including boon distribution etc. Player X tries to change how player 2 plays, or worse tries to force the issue.
And this is why DPs meters are a bad thing (unless personal only)
That’s a load of bull and you know it. Making up ridiculous scenarios that would almost never happen just put down a very useful tool that can and will improve a lot of players gameplay.
-snip- Player X tries to change how player 2 plays, or worse tries to force the issue.
And this is why DPs meters are a bad thing (unless personal only)
That’s a load of bull and you know it. Making up ridiculous scenarios that would almost never happen just put down a very useful tool that can and will improve a lot of players gameplay.
Is that sarcasm, I honestly can’t tell?
That scenario is hardly ridiculous and it’s exactly what people want to use the dps meter for. If you aren’t going to judge, criticize, exclude, or try to change how someone plays that preforms below in what you opinion is acceptable, what do you want to see others DPS for?
Player X thinks ‘dps’ is really important and uses a meter, and is very opinionated about it. Player 2 values balanced gameplay and is less concerned with min maxing 1 stat and more concerned with the overall group progress, including boon distribution etc. Player X tries to change how player 2 plays, or worse tries to force the issue.
And this is why DPs meters are a bad thing (unless personal only)
You did not say why dps meter is bad. You typed some weird stuff about some Xs and 2s.
The one thing I would comment about that is an alpha servers uses =/= to the same uses as the live game.
Players should have access to the data and statistics the game provides. Asking for more is one thing, demanding and saying it “should” etc is entitlement.
Are people clearing all content without dps meters… If the answer is yes, then they probably aren’t a necessity.
On a silly note, why someone would make a video claiming many raiders use something breaks the ToU… Isn’t that just begging for A-net to at least investigate many of these players?
Content clearing has nothing to do with a dps meter. A dps meter gives information, despite the name most dps meters in games don’t just show damage but a wide variety of statistics. In GW2 we have something similar in PVP which gives a lot of information, including boons, healing and damage taken. If something like that was added to Raids then it would make theory-crafting new builds and tactics much easier.
In addition it would eliminate the pug idea that some builds and entire professions are just terrible. Even if some builds seem bad on paper (or on target golems) it reality they might be good. Without an actual dps meter we don’t know, which leads to exclusion. With a dps meter we will both see in reality what a build can really do AND we’ll have more than enough data to press Arenanet to make changes in case the real results aren’t as expected.
On a silly note, why someone would make a video claiming many raiders use something breaks the ToU… Isn’t that just begging for A-net to at least investigate many of these players?
I think he did it as a form of pressure towards Arenanet. If the bulk of the higher end raiding community is using something like that can they really ban all of them? Can they really ban the people who are doing all the work in raids and providing builds and tactics for everyone else? I don’t think so and he knows that they can’t ban all of them, so he is essentially saying “we’ll be using an out of game dps meter in one way or another no matter what you do, add one in-game so we don’t have to hack your game”. Or something like that.
Content clearing has nothing to do with a dps meter. A dps meter gives information, despite the name most dps meters in games don’t just show damage but a wide variety of statistics. In GW2 we have something similar in PVP which gives a lot of information, including boons, healing and damage taken. If something like that was added to Raids then it would make theory-crafting new builds and tactics much easier.
In addition it would eliminate the pug idea that some builds and entire professions are just terrible. Even if some builds seem bad on paper (or on target golems) it reality they might be good. Without an actual dps meter we don’t know, which leads to exclusion. With a dps meter we will both see in reality what a build can really do AND we’ll have more than enough data to press Arenanet to make changes in case the real results aren’t as expected.
Right, my point is just because there is something that can be used on an ALPHA server for testing does not mean it should be made live no matter what. A meter as you described shows many different aspects that can be helpful for balance etc… The minority of players would be testing balance, when monitoring other players dps.
I think he did it as a form of pressure towards Arenanet. If the bulk of the higher end raiding community is using something like that can they really ban all of them? Can they really ban the people who are doing all the work in raids and providing builds and tactics for everyone else? I don’t think so and he knows that they can’t ban all of them, so he is essentially saying “we’ll be using an out of game dps meter in one way or another no matter what you do, add one in-game so we don’t have to hack your game”. Or something like that.
So if enough people or the right people, (the people that in your opinion matter) break the rules it should be acceptable?
Right, my point is just because there is something that can be used on an ALPHA server for testing does not mean it should be made live no matter what. A meter as you described shows many different aspects that can be helpful for balance etc… The minority of players would be testing balance, when monitoring other players dps.
Well if they gave the meter tools only to select people that test their Raids or even other content then I wouldn’t mind. If they are also allowed to post their results for everyone to see so we get actual data and stop the theories. Something like the qT dps list but with a lot more data and from actual raid encounters instead of golems.
So if enough people or the right people, (the people that in your opinion matter) break the rules it should be acceptable?
I’m not the creator of the video but that’s how it appeared to me I might be completely wrong.
people in raids are using dps meters as we speak. all the top guilds use them. any serious raid guild uses them. and uses them with pugs. tbh the only time ive seen it is when they try to help people get better. basically theres a lot of terrible players being carried by groups constantly. or causing them to fail because they are so bad. but they are good enough you cant tell their rotations are trash. so they go unoticed.
people in raids are using dps meters as we speak. all the top guilds use them. any serious raid guild uses them. and uses them with pugs. tbh the only time ive seen it is when they try to help people get better. basically theres a lot of terrible players being carried by groups constantly. or causing them to fail because they are so bad. but they are good enough you cant tell their rotations are trash. so they go unoticed.
Because the guilds that know how to raid and fairly evaluate performance aren’t the concern. It is those who don’t know how to use tools like this properly that create the toxicity many of us talk about.
And, whether people want to admit it in this thread or not, we all know it would happen. These kind of tools breed toxicity and hatred. Anyone who has played any games where they were widely accepted understands that.
Finally, just because a lot of people are using a tool the developers consider against game rules doesn’t mean that tool should become a part of the game. Think about the precedent that would set.
And yes, anyone caught breaking the user agreement in this way in the game should be punished in some way – regardless of who they are or how big that group is. We’ve seen mass bans or suspensions in other games before – that included popular youtubers, twitch streamers, etc. If anything, seeing it renews faith in the company to know that they enforce rules unilaterally.
-snip- Player X tries to change how player 2 plays, or worse tries to force the issue.
And this is why DPs meters are a bad thing (unless personal only)
That’s a load of bull and you know it. Making up ridiculous scenarios that would almost never happen just put down a very useful tool that can and will improve a lot of players gameplay.
Is that sarcasm, I honestly can’t tell?
That scenario is hardly ridiculous and it’s exactly what people want to use the dps meter for. If you aren’t going to judge, criticize, exclude, or try to change how someone plays that preforms below in what you opinion is acceptable, what do you want to see others DPS for?
The scenario is quite ridiculous, it’s not “exactly what people want to use the dps meter for” or to “judge, criticize, exclude, or to change how someone plays”. It’s for players to help improve themselves. As well as to help others improve their gameplay that may be struggling with damage, healing, taking too much damage, or boon uptime without realizing it in a guild group or a pug that may be halting progression through the raid content.
The scenario is quite ridiculous, it’s not “exactly what people want to use the dps meter for” or to “judge, criticize, exclude, or to change how someone plays”. It’s for players to help improve themselves. As well as to help others improve their gameplay that may be struggling with damage, healing, taking too much damage, or boon uptime without realizing it in a guild group or a pug that may be halting progression through the raid content.
When you say “help others improve their gameplay” does that mean you judge, criticize and then try to change how someone plays?
Helping others is fine, but remember unwanted and unwelcome help or advice doesn’t often spark friendly conversation. It’s also greatly effected by how it’s presented and suggested.
If you honestly think people would not use a DPS meter in a negative way… You have an incredible faith in people.
Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
Since we don’t have dps meters, we instead have “link LI or kick” instead
DPS meters don’t cause toxicity. They are just one of a great number of ways for players to arbitrarily exclude others. LI and ascended gear being other ways.
Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.
And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.
The scenario is quite ridiculous, it’s not “exactly what people want to use the dps meter for” or to “judge, criticize, exclude, or to change how someone plays”. It’s for players to help improve themselves. As well as to help others improve their gameplay that may be struggling with damage, healing, taking too much damage, or boon uptime without realizing it in a guild group or a pug that may be halting progression through the raid content.
When you say “help others improve their gameplay” does that mean you judge, criticize and then try to change how someone plays?
Helping others is fine, but remember unwanted and unwelcome help or advice doesn’t often spark friendly conversation. It’s also greatly effected by how it’s presented and suggested.
If you honestly think people would not use a DPS meter in a negative way… You have an incredible faith in people.
No, they don’t judge or criticize them. They figure out what may be the issue and give them advice and tips to work on and improve. I’m not sure what you mean by “try to change how someone plays”, do you mean special snowflakes that use hardly optimized gear and lack luster builds?
Help or advice should never be unwanted or unwelcomed, especially in a teamplay environment.
I’ve been raiding in wow since 09 on the hardest difficulties (Heroic/Mythic) in guild groups as well as pugs and I barely encountered people like this. My guild currently is #5 on my server out of a 100 or so in terms of raid progression and none of them are like this (not trying to gloat, just trying to get a point across). If I did encounter people like this, I ignore them and moved on because I’m an adult, and I don’t have a tantrum if I was kicked or criticized.
Did ANet publicly tell everyone that there are DPS meters in Alpha, or did Nike just leak that info?
at what time stamp in the video did he actually say there was a DPS meter in alpha?
At the start of the video he says there was a 3rd party dps meter that was released, it does read memory and is 100% in violation of the ToU and could result in action being taken on your account.
I was just wondering where he said there was an official one in alpha.
Edit: Someone helped me out by stating it was at 5:47 in the video.
Also, in his video someone commented, “I wonder how DPS meter looks on alpha servers.” Nike responded by saying, “Maybe some of the raid testing guilds or devs will chime in.” That made it seem like both of them knew that DPS meters are in Alpha. Maybe I’m reading into it too much
Maybe he didn’t actually see it personally but it’s I think it’s safe to assume Anet has some sort of tools available for testers to see that information as they developed the game.
IMO, I flip flop on this issue but now that we know meta is irrelevant to completing content, I don’t see the need to give meta pushers yet another tool to soapbox with.
Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.
And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.
Seriously? Do you have any factual statistics to back that up? What percentage of the gw2 playerbase is here due to stat gathering tools from other games?
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.
And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.
Seriously? Do you have any factual statistics to back that up? What percentage of the gw2 playerbase is here due to stat gathering tools from other games?
I led 10 and 25 player progression raids in WoW for 6+ years. I used recount extensively, as well as third party combat log programs that parsed and analyzed data down to the second by second action. I even had a paid subscription to use one (cant remember the name of it at the moment).
And I saw how others in the community there used the tools as well – both when I joined other groups and from guildees/friends/mapchat regarding the topic. The hate and toxicity was real. I would have gladly given them up in my raiding if it would have removed them entirely from the game. And, yes – 100% – they and the atmosphere they created were a big part of the reason I (and many guildees with me) left WoW looking for a friendlier MMO experience (which GW2 definitely was).
Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.
And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.
Seriously? Do you have any factual statistics to back that up? What percentage of the gw2 playerbase is here due to stat gathering tools from other games?
I led 10 and 25 player progression raids in WoW for 6+ years. I used recount extensively, as well as third party combat log programs that parsed and analyzed data down to the second by second action. I even had a paid subscription to use one (cant remember the name of it at the moment).
And I saw how others in the community there used the tools as well – both when I joined other groups and from guildees/friends/mapchat regarding the topic. The hate and toxicity was real. I would have gladly given them up in my raiding if it would have removed them entirely from the game. And, yes – 100% – they and the atmosphere they created were a big part of the reason I (and many guildees with me) left WoW looking for a friendlier MMO experience (which GW2 definitely was).
You and your guildies do not constitute “many”… and that game you referenced still outperforms gw2, even with those meters.
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
Y’all niggle too much about this topic… These meters have been used in tons of games for many years and everyone has survived, so I’m sure we will be ok too.
And garbage like these meters – and the toxicity they create – are exactly why many left those games to come to GW2.
Seriously? Do you have any factual statistics to back that up? What percentage of the gw2 playerbase is here due to stat gathering tools from other games?
I led 10 and 25 player progression raids in WoW for 6+ years. I used recount extensively, as well as third party combat log programs that parsed and analyzed data down to the second by second action. I even had a paid subscription to use one (cant remember the name of it at the moment).
And I saw how others in the community there used the tools as well – both when I joined other groups and from guildees/friends/mapchat regarding the topic. The hate and toxicity was real. I would have gladly given them up in my raiding if it would have removed them entirely from the game. And, yes – 100% – they and the atmosphere they created were a big part of the reason I (and many guildees with me) left WoW looking for a friendlier MMO experience (which GW2 definitely was).
You and your guildies do not constitute “many”… and that game you referenced still outperforms gw2, even with those meters.
I can only speak from my perspective – same as anyone else on these forums. Maybe the use of the word “many” was presumptive, but I stand behind the opinion.
’rotations ’ and min maxing are the backbone of tightly tuned raids, the scourge or dynamic reactive game play and the source of a lot of opinionated and subjective antisocial behavior, public damage meters bring fuel to this fire. We have had games like wow for a long time now, we can see the damage meters cause.
Anet have found a middle ground where there are viable raids without meters – so why the desperate need for meters now, i would hazard a guess bored raiders who want to play the numbers game.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
I might be completely wrong.