Guild Wars 2

Shufflepants.9785:

And remember, you are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who also wish to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you can always be sure people are geared properly without having to check

You are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who don’t want to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you don’t have to be sure people are geared properly without having to check

Lazarus.3970:

runeblade.7514:

Lazarus.3970:

Yeah, Im 99.9% sure Id never get a group if someone saw my stats like that. I use my shortbow the vast majority of the time in dungeons because its the only weapon i feel I can use for most situations, but its not overly strong. As a thief Ive set up using mostly power, precision and toughness. Its not right for someone to kick me from a group just because they don’t like how I set up to play.

So make your own group. Only you get to care how you want your group to play or they get kicked.

It cost 0 gold 0 silver 0 copper to create your own lfg.

99% of the time, I never see the zerker/exp/level 80 parties. Should I put up and join the casual parties? No. I create my own lfg and watch how fast it fills up.

But you are effectively forcing the community into 2 groups.

I can understand why you would want such a feature, but a simple DPS meter doesn’t truly relate to skill or effectiveness. Maybe I am good at staying alive and can quickly res people? You don’t know that. Maybe I just cant afford the best gear? I’m not rich, and only have about 6-7 gold consistently. I may be wearing all exotic armor, but my accessories are mostly rares, because the exotic versions are stupidly expensive. I do have 2 ascended accessories, and am working on an ascended weapon, but you are proposing to castrate me from 50% of the groups because I’m not a power player with tons of money to buy all the best equipment. I know how to play PvE content, and I’m fairly good at staying alive, but you and your proposed DPS meter wouldn’t even allow me to prove my worth simply because a number wasn’t high enough for your standards.

You: “I’m sorry, you are X class, so you should be using Y armor and have Z stats. I don’t want you.”

Well kitten you too. I don’t want to play with a judgmental prick anyway.

Me: "I put up a message with high dps only. Please read. I don’t want you. " /kicks

You: “Well, I don’t have high dps, I guess I should make my OWN group.” /create lfg. “Wow, this group fills up very fast! I knew that making my own group is the best idea.”

runeblade.7514:

Shufflepants.9785:

And remember, you are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who also wish to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you can always be sure people are geared properly without having to check

You are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who don’t want to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you don’t have to be sure people are geared properly without having to check

Oh good, so you agree with my reasoning that the current system is sufficient to accommodate players of all play styles and that we don’t need gear inspection or dps meters in order to do so!

Everyone pack everything up! The debate has been solved!

Shufflepants.9785:

runeblade.7514:

Shufflepants.9785:

And remember, you are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who also wish to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you can always be sure people are geared properly without having to check

You are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who don’t want to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you don’t have to be sure people are geared properly without having to check

Oh good, so you agree with my reasoning that the current system is sufficient to accommodate players of all play styles and that we don’t need gear inspection or dps meters in order to do so!

Everyone pack everything up! The debate has been solved!

Not it’s not. I will never get this playerbase’s resistance to additional features and content. Seemingly all because it will lead to hurt feelings and a loss of anonymity. When people can see someone ruining world boss events by running around, spamming 1 in a snowflake build, it becomes a lot less appealing to do that, eh?

This is exactly why we need instanced content, and not this megaserver-megablob garbage.

Shufflepants.9785:

runeblade.7514:

Shufflepants.9785:

And remember, you are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who also wish to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you can always be sure people are geared properly without having to check

You are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who don’t want to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you don’t have to be sure people are geared properly without having to check

Oh good, so you agree with my reasoning that the current system is sufficient to accommodate players of all play styles and that we don’t need gear inspection or dps meters in order to do so!

Everyone pack everything up! The debate has been solved!

Yes, I agree. Which means you can play dungeons even with gear inspection and dps meters implemented. Just find your own group.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Shufflepants.9785:

runeblade.7514:

Shufflepants.9785:

And remember, you are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who also wish to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you can always be sure people are geared properly without having to check

You are completely free to build a guild or group of like minded friends who don’t want to minmax their dungeon runs and you can play with the same group of people day to day. And that way you don’t have to be sure people are geared properly without having to check

Oh good, so you agree with my reasoning that the current system is sufficient to accommodate players of all play styles and that we don’t need gear inspection or dps meters in order to do so!

Everyone pack everything up! The debate has been solved!

Not it’s not. I will never get this playerbase’s resistance to additional features and content. Seemingly all because it will lead to hurt feelings and a loss of anonymity. When people can see someone ruining world boss events by running around, spamming 1 in a snowflake build, it becomes a lot less appealing to do that, eh?

This is exactly why we need instanced content, and not this megaserver-megablob garbage.

So, you just don’t buy that dps meters and gear inspection will lead to a more elitism and a more negative community. But the evidence of this is writ large. All one needs to do is to look at the communities of other games that have these features and compare them to this game. A lot of the players of this game don’t want this kind of elitism and negativity in the game and the developers of this game have made it quite clear that they want to foster a more harmonious community wherever possible.

It’s not “this playerbase”.

This is a repeat over many games over many years.

Really, in an environment where the use of in-game music instruments can cause a lot of friction, a genre that has basically invented the sport of going out of your way to annoy others – how come you are surprised at the general responses to your suggestion here in this thread?

I still think, that if the main idea is to save “time”, because other than not being able to complete a dungeon at all that really is the essence of it, why not avoid LFG completely?

I don’t know how these two things would help with someone “ruining world boss events”.

DPS meters were a fun thing to play around with in some games and I think everyone could benefit from it, but there simply are no addons – period.

I’m sorry that you are not happy with the megaserver.

They are saving these features for next year’s April 1st patch

Personal DPS Meter so that you can see what you are doing: Yes
Group DPS Meter so that you can see what others are doing: No

Inspect Command to see what other people have equipped visually (wardrobe): Yes
Inspect Command to see what other people have equipped gear-wise (equipment): No

Fenrir.3609:

They are getting “carried” in terms of the anticipated speed of the run. You can faceroll through pretty much all the content (and solo a great deal of it) in tanky gear/builds but it will take a while longer than a dps team.

Now those trying to get into zerk runs in tanky gear are doing so because they want to get through the content quickly, being carried on the back of other players dps, whilst they use suboptimal gear/builds . i.e. they are being carried.

The “anticipated speed of the run” is an expectation that only you have. People will join zerk groups while not in zerk for a myriad of reasons that don’t involve hoping other players carry them:

#1: They hate elitism and defy these extraneous expectations out of principle.
#2: They expect everyone else to just join up in whatever they are wearing anyway, and don’t think the tags have any real meaning.
#3: They factually cannot operate in zerker gear, and thus their higher bulk actually gives them higher sustained DPS than zerker gear would.
#4: They just want experience in the run, but since no one will ever form a “teaching n00bs” group they feel like they have to lie just to get their foot in the door. It is hard to learn the content when you die every other attack, so even if they have zerk gear, they want to run with more durability before going out on a limb.
#5: They don’t know what “zerk” is. Funny thing, berserker doesn’t contain the word “zerk” anywhere, so unless they are in the know they won’t know.

You’ve got to realize that the majority of players in the game don’t follow the “zerk or else” meta. They have different ideals, and truly think they are contributing in their own way. It is quite rare to get players who truly think that, because someone is in berserker gear, that they’ll be carrying them. That’s just projection more than anything else.

One thing for sure is that meters will bring in the theorycrafting community and will help highlight imbalance between classes.

I don’t get the fear over this, but as with many other suggested features, the concern is over hurt feelings. It’s absurd.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Fenrir.3609:

They are getting “carried” in terms of the anticipated speed of the run. You can faceroll through pretty much all the content (and solo a great deal of it) in tanky gear/builds but it will take a while longer than a dps team.

Now those trying to get into zerk runs in tanky gear are doing so because they want to get through the content quickly, being carried on the back of other players dps, whilst they use suboptimal gear/builds . i.e. they are being carried.

The “anticipated speed of the run” is an expectation that only you have. People will join zerk groups while not in zerk for a myriad of reasons that don’t involve hoping other players carry them:

#1: They hate elitism and defy these extraneous expectations out of principle.
#2: They expect everyone else to just join up in whatever they are wearing anyway, and don’t think the tags have any real meaning.
#3: They factually cannot operate in zerker gear, and thus their higher bulk actually gives them higher sustained DPS than zerker gear would.
#4: They just want experience in the run, but since no one will ever form a “teaching n00bs” group they feel like they have to lie just to get their foot in the door. It is hard to learn the content when you die every other attack, so even if they have zerk gear, they want to run with more durability before going out on a limb.
#5: They don’t know what “zerk” is. Funny thing, berserker doesn’t contain the word “zerk” anywhere, so unless they are in the know they won’t know.

You’ve got to realize that the majority of players in the game don’t follow the “zerk or else” meta. They have different ideals, and truly think they are contributing in their own way. It is quite rare to get players who truly think that, because someone is in berserker gear, that they’ll be carrying them. That’s just projection more than anything else.

1) I highly doubt they really hate elitism in general, but may dislike when it works against them personally. I would not be surprised to find that if asked to choose between a surgeon that graduated top in his class and who has since performed a given procedure hundreds or thousands of times and one who barely graduated with assistance and who has little experience with the procedure in question the elite hating individuals would discard their hatred in favor of the superior option. I believe that its not a matter of, “principle,” but rather of personal advancement.

2) If the run is labeled a certain way in LFG anyone joining who does not meat the listed parameters is being selfish and rude.

3) Then they shouldn’t be joining runs labeled as zerker only. If I cannot swim it would be disrespectful to the other members of the team for me to join a team swim event.

4) There are runs that do not require zerker only. The player is also capable of starting his own group.

5) Good point, but if you don’t know, ask, seems reasonable. I also believe that it is safe to assume that if you have no idea what something is you might want to research it a bit before joining a group designate for it.

The anticipated speed of the run is not and expectation that only one person has. It is an expectation that anyone joining the group in accordance with its advertised goals has. One person ignoring the expectation of the intent and goals of everyone else in a group of players is being selfish and rude in the same way as if I joined a PvP group and decided to throw the match.

runeblade.7514:

Woljnir.7810:

runeblade.7514:

Woljnir.7810:

If playing how you want infringes on someone else playing how they want, nothing will ever be solved. Inspect someone and see they have their own build and aren’t zerker, kick right away without even saying anything. Am I doing it right?

Also DPS meters? Really? In a game that basically just consists of 5 man groups of all DPS, I don’t think DPS meters are needed in the least other than to stroke Berserker’s kitten and the need to see the big numbers. And yes, I understand you said nothing about Berserker, but that is honestly how your post comes off.

1. The other way around works too. If someone else plays how they want which I don’t approve, it will infringe on how I play how I want if I let them in my party. In this case, if you don’t want to take the time to equip for the right equipment in my party, then create your own party that accepts anybody even with lower gear levels.

2. There are people that wants to find the highest DPS ever and then there are people like me. I will need DPS meters to know how much DPS I have for this build. I can choose to sacrifice DPS for utility if I need to. Let say that I want to use Ranger Axe/Axe build. First I look for the highest dps possible, then I shave off the dps for utility/survivability if I choose to. There are builds for highest DPS for warriors; however, they all use Greatsword or axe/mace, yet there are no builds for highest mace DPS build. As a mace guy, I assure that it will reinforce on playing how I want.

And this is exactly why it doesn’t exist. Those people who don’t like a person’s build so they just kick them? Yeah, that’s you. The elitism just drips from your post. Sorry that you feel the need to approve of other player’s builds. The “right equipment” isn’t decided by anybody other than the player.

You missed the part where using whatever gear that will hurt the party dps will infringe on my playstyle. It is my party, I created the LFG with the title: “Zerker and experienced only!” I do not want to invite any players that will waste unnecessary time in the dungeon run with DPS so low, it will take for hours to complete.

If you don’t like the way how I play, make your own party. You don’t need to join my party. It cost 0 gold 0 silver 0 copper to make your own lfg. I do create and join parties that accept anyone. These parties do exist and there are players willing to join these parties.

I didn’t miss it though. If you made the party and said “zerker only etc” and that person doesn’t meet that criteria and joined party anyway, then certainly kick them. If the group said Ping gear and they don’t, then kick them. My points are for groups that don’t specifically state what criteria they want in a group, but simply inspect their gear and automatically assume they’re bad. For groups with specifically stated criteria that some scrub joins anyway, by all means kick their butt out.

I would also like a party-wide DPS meter, and an inspect command.

Aditionally, the LFG should have more restrictive options such as minimum level requirement, to prevent lowbies from noobing around joining your groups.

This game is too “friendly”, it needs more reality checks.

Ashen.2907:

1) I highly doubt they really hate elitism in general, but may dislike when it works against them personally. I would not be surprised to find that if asked to choose between a surgeon that graduated top in his class and who has since performed a given procedure hundreds or thousands of times and one who barely graduated with assistance and who has little experience with the procedure in question the elite hating individuals would discard their hatred in favor of the superior option. I believe that its not a matter of, “principle,” but rather of personal advancement.

2) If the run is labeled a certain way in LFG anyone joining who does not meat the listed parameters is being selfish and rude.

3) Then they shouldn’t be joining runs labeled as zerker only. If I cannot swim it would be disrespectful to the other members of the team for me to join a team swim event.

4) There are runs that do not require zerker only. The player is also capable of starting his own group.

5) Good point, but if you don’t know, ask, seems reasonable. I also believe that it is safe to assume that if you have no idea what something is you might want to research it a bit before joining a group designate for it.

The anticipated speed of the run is not and expectation that only one person has. It is an expectation that anyone joining the group in accordance with its advertised goals has. One person ignoring the expectation of the intent and goals of everyone else in a group of players is being selfish and rude in the same way as if I joined a PvP group and decided to throw the match.

1)You confuse “elitist” with “good”. You’d be amazed how many people with a militant superiority complex aren’t superior at all. Zerk requirements in the game are extraneous, and that is a fact.
2)Matching regular expectations isn’t selfish and rude.
3)I agree, but nonetheless this doesn’t change how someone feels.
4)Forming their own party doesn’t matter. They’ll just get a bunch of other people who don’t know what to do, and they’ll learn nothing from their deaths. It is that strange kafkaesque paradox where, to learn to run dungeons in zerker gear, you have to already be able to run dungeons in zerker gear.
5)You do not understand the true effects a lack of knowledge really has: because they don’t know, they don’t know to ask.

The anticipated speed of the run is an expectation that exists only in the minds of people who are familiar with the content, familiar with the terminology, embrace the zerker meta, embrace elitist discrimination, and have instituted the unrealistic expectation that everyone will tag along and perform perfectly. This isn’t “one person” in the entire world of GW2, but only those who have purposely imposed those expectations on themselves.

You seem to misunderstand my purpose. I don’t think people should join zerker parties without having zerker gear. I’m saying that the whole “I’ll grab on to these guys to get faster tokens” idea is a delusion of paranoia, projected by a superiority complex onto its victims to legitimize deep hatred of their fellow man.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Fenrir.3609:

They are getting “carried” in terms of the anticipated speed of the run. You can faceroll through pretty much all the content (and solo a great deal of it) in tanky gear/builds but it will take a while longer than a dps team.

Now those trying to get into zerk runs in tanky gear are doing so because they want to get through the content quickly, being carried on the back of other players dps, whilst they use suboptimal gear/builds . i.e. they are being carried.

The “anticipated speed of the run” is an expectation that only you have. People will join zerk groups while not in zerk for a myriad of reasons that don’t involve hoping other players carry them:

#1: They hate elitism and defy these extraneous expectations out of principle.
#2: They expect everyone else to just join up in whatever they are wearing anyway, and don’t think the tags have any real meaning.
#3: They factually cannot operate in zerker gear, and thus their higher bulk actually gives them higher sustained DPS than zerker gear would.
#4: They just want experience in the run, but since no one will ever form a “teaching n00bs” group they feel like they have to lie just to get their foot in the door. It is hard to learn the content when you die every other attack, so even if they have zerk gear, they want to run with more durability before going out on a limb.
#5: They don’t know what “zerk” is. Funny thing, berserker doesn’t contain the word “zerk” anywhere, so unless they are in the know they won’t know.

You’ve got to realize that the majority of players in the game don’t follow the “zerk or else” meta. They have different ideals, and truly think they are contributing in their own way. It is quite rare to get players who truly think that, because someone is in berserker gear, that they’ll be carrying them. That’s just projection more than anything else.

#1: If a player’s principle is to mess with another group of players, they probably have a very sad life. Also, I doubt that many people would actually do that. It would accomplish virtually nothing. People value their time.

#2: If that’s the case, we “elitists” should be allowed to kick them. Thats what happens to zerkers to demand a full zerk party when the lfg clearly states “casual run” or w/e. I’m not supporting this, just saying that ignoring lfgs should be enough basis for a kick, regardless of who you are or what you’re joining. Also, ignoring tags won’t make you very popular. (Selfish play style, ignoring the wishes of your party members)

#3: If they cannot operate in zerker gear but wish to run with zerkers, they should get better at combat. Once again, should someone do this, they should be kicked. Being bad at combat is not an adequate excuse to be carried. (Same as being carried)

#4: #3 and #4 are virtually the same, just lacking in different parts of the game. One is lacking in combat experience and skill, and the other is lacking in experience with the dungeon. If someone needs to learn the dungeon, they should ask a friend to teach them. If they don’t have friends, they can form their own “learning dung” party. By joining an lfg, you are a guest in a party. To disregard a host’s rules is quite rude. I’m sure everyone can relate to this. (Same as being carried.)

#5: Now THIS, is the only legitimate concern to me. A very small one, at that. If someone does not know the term “zerk”, then nothing can be done. That being said, these cases should be fairly rare, and is not a big enough concern to justify not implementing a way to play with people who everyone wants to play with.

In conclusion, most of the kittening in zerk parties are usually caused by four things. #1: The host of the lfg does not put “zerk” into the description. #2: People want to be carried. #3The guest in the party either does not know what “zerk” means, or wants to mess with other players. #4: They’re selfish and don’t care about the tags in lfg.

To all the players who dislike zerk parties in this game: respect the lfg labels. Don’t join a zerk party if you’re not prepared to be zerk. And don’t put the label “elitist” or “rude” on zerk players when intruding on a zerk party without zerk gear is being quite rude yourself.

P.S. If this goes on for any longer, I won’t be surprised if zerk guilds start popping up. And if people start hating on specific guilds…oh god. Zone chat is gunna get hit with a nuke.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

1)You confuse “elitist” with “good”. You’d be amazed how many people with a militant superiority complex aren’t superior at all. Zerk requirements in the game are extraneous, and that is a fact.
2)Matching regular expectations isn’t selfish and rude.
3)I agree, but nonetheless this doesn’t change how someone feels.
4)Forming their own party doesn’t matter. They’ll just get a bunch of other people who don’t know what to do, and they’ll learn nothing from their deaths. It is that strange kafkaesque paradox where, to learn to run dungeons in zerker gear, you have to already be able to run dungeons in zerker gear.
5)You do not understand the true effects a lack of knowledge really has: because they don’t know, they don’t know to ask.

The anticipated speed of the run is an expectation that exists only in the minds of people who are familiar with the content, familiar with the terminology, embrace the zerker meta, embrace elitist discrimination, and have instituted the unrealistic expectation that everyone will tag along and perform perfectly. This isn’t “one person” in the entire world of GW2, but only those who have purposely imposed those expectations on themselves.

You seem to misunderstand my purpose. I don’t think people should join zerker parties without having zerker gear. I’m saying that the whole “I’ll grab on to these guys to get faster tokens” idea is a delusion of paranoia, projected by a superiority complex onto its victims to legitimize deep hatred of their fellow man.

1) I commented on elitism. Giving preference to one person because they are superior, or perceived to be so, in some way to an alternative is a form of elitism.

2) Intruding on a group in contradiction of its clearly stated goals and desires is rude and selfish. The community theater across the street from my home advertises ballroom dancing on the first wednesday of each month. It would be very rude and selfish of me to walk in and start square dancing.

5) If there is a word that you do not know being used then you should know to ask. If you are not willing to ask a question in a situation where you know that you are not in the know the consequences are your own.

Of course the expectation is in the mind. It is in the mind of the person who formed the group and labeled the LFG according to that expectation. It is in the minds of those who join a group so labeled. It should be in the mind of anyone seeking to join that group. This is not significantly different than a group labeled as needing one more for HotW and having someone join with the intention of doing AC. If the player doesn’t know what HOTW means he knows that he doesnt know, and has the option to ask. The same is true with a team advertising for a zerker. If a player doesnt know what the word zerker means he knows that he doesnt know and can ask. If I say to you, “Yggdrasil stands tall,” and you do not know what Yggdrasil means you will immediately know so and could ask.

I think that you are over psychoanalyzing the individuals looking for a faster path to game rewards. “Sometimes a cigar,” I mean an advertisement for a speed run, “is just a cigar,” I mean an attempt to complete an objective a bit faster.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#1: They hate elitism and defy these extraneous expectations out of principle.

#2: They expect everyone else to just join up in whatever they are wearing anyway, and don’t think the tags have any real meaning.

#3: They factually cannot operate in zerker gear, and thus their higher bulk actually gives them higher sustained DPS than zerker gear would.

#4: They just want experience in the run, but since no one will ever form a “teaching n00bs” group they feel like they have to lie just to get their foot in the door. It is hard to learn the content when you die every other attack, so even if they have zerk gear, they want to run with more durability before going out on a limb.

#5: They don’t know what “zerk” is. Funny thing, berserker doesn’t contain the word “zerk” anywhere, so unless they are in the know they won’t know.

Those reasons may all explain why people join efficiency groups when not willing or able to engage in the efficiency play-style. However, they do not excuse butting in where one was not invited. Efficiency players who join “anything goes” groups and demand efficiency, likewise.

Excuses #1 and #2 are simply, “I choose to disregard what others want.” I have no sympathy for those positions.

Numbers 3 and 4 represent legitimate dilemmas. However, there are teaching groups — some are run by members of the dungeon community. Forcing a given group to accept a teaching role, however it may appeal to those wanting it, is not an ideal solution. I tend to be helpful in games, but I’m not always in the mood nor do I always have the time do so. Players can group with the like-minded, or join guilds that offer to take the less experienced on dungeon runs. An LFG group — consisting of random players who’ve advertised they want a fast run — is simply the wrong venue for a teaching experience. It’s not reasonable to expect the convenience of the PuG tool while also expecting a learning experience on demand, with little to no effort on the part of the prospective student.

Number 5 is ignorance. If this is happening, then there are two possibilities. Either the person has learning issues, or is willfully ignorant. I feel for people who have learning issues. I believe that one should not be rude to them. The willfully ignorant I avoid whenever possible. While I do not advocate rudeness to such people, removing them after a polite explanation is not rude — though it may not make one a humanitarian.

None of this is to say that I approve of anyone being rude, talking down to others, kicking without some explanation, etc. However, neither do I believe that people have the right to demand others hang out with them even if they aren’t in tune with what those others want.

God Of Mustard.6354:

#1: If a player’s principle is to mess with another group of players, they probably have a very sad life. Also, I doubt that many people would actually do that. It would accomplish virtually nothing. People value their time.

There’s a term for this – it’s called “Griefing”, and a lot of people enjoy it for all sorts of reasons – spite, vengeance against slights, etc. Such as people wrecking Champ Trains not because they want to face a champion on their own or with their own group or any other legitimate reason to down a champ ‘out of sequence’, but simply to provoke the train into raging (Which the train wouldn’t rage about if it were for an honest reason), or, more relevant, people who currently hate the ‘zerker meta and feel it is destroying the game, so go out of their way to try to try and ’prove a point’ by deliberately fouling up Zerker Meta Speed Runs.

#2: If that’s the case, we “elitists” should be allowed to kick them. Thats what happens to zerkers to demand a full zerk party when the lfg clearly states “casual run” or w/e. I’m not supporting this, just saying that ignoring lfgs should be enough basis for a kick, regardless of who you are or what you’re joining. Also, ignoring tags won’t make you very popular. (Selfish play style, ignoring the wishes of your party members)

While I’m not a fan of the idea of gear inspect or DPS meters, the problem with the “just kick them” is that you have to take someone at their word that they’re a Burst Damage character ready to tear through a dungeon – and only after the run is delayed by that character (Who may outright try to deceive others by carrying a spare set of zerker gear and weapons, but running a condi bunker build) that the deception is revealed.

#3: If they cannot operate in zerker gear but wish to run with zerkers, they should get better at combat. Once again, should someone do this, they should be kicked. Being bad at combat is not an adequate excuse to be carried. (Same as being carried)

The only way to get better with ‘zerker gear and builds is to run ’zerker gear and builds. They can join ’zerker parties, try to do their best to ensure they’ve got at least the basics of the strategy used down, and do their best to improve – but you can’t get better at Zerker gameplay if you’re running a PVT build – your burst damage isn’t what it needs to be.

#4: #3 and #4 are virtually the same, just lacking in different parts of the game. One is lacking in combat experience and skill, and the other is lacking in experience with the dungeon. If someone needs to learn the dungeon, they should ask a friend to teach them. If they don’t have friends, they can form their own “learning dung” party. By joining an lfg, you are a guest in a party. To disregard a host’s rules is quite rude. I’m sure everyone can relate to this. (Same as being carried.)

Ideally, I think it’s better for training to have 3-4 skilled zerkers and 1 or2 willing-to-learn new zerks. The new guys should know the dungeon itself though, even if they’re not quite sure of how to do it as a zerker yet.

Ultimately, people really should be more excellent to each other – and unlike most of the other content in the game, the instanced nature of dungeons and fractals means they don’t have to clash. Unfortunately, a lot of people put metagame crusading above decency.

God Of Mustard.6354:

Abridged to save space

#1: They wouldn’t be sad if people weren’t being so retentive over the issue. Quality of life aside, there is a very strong anti-elitism presence in the game, and without proper population policing tools, what option is there other than to make them feel as unwelcome as possible? As far as they consider it, their sabotage is done for the greater good of the game. Without any additional principles to guide them, you’ll see exactly how far your standard man is willing to negotiate with the devil.

#2: Kicking for forming requirements in groups and standard expectations when entering a group environment have very little to do with each other. You have to understand, for many people the prospect of a full zerk party has absolutely no qualitative meaning, and thus garners no more respect than writing in a bathroom stall.

#3: This doesn’t have to deal with being carried at all. Those players can be fully self sufficient in their gear choice, but not self sufficient in others. It is counterproductive to make someone wear armor that they can’t function in, because then is when they truly have to be carried.

#4: If they differ in aspects, then they aren’t the same. There again, is a difference here, where one joins with the sole expectation to learn to not be carried. Temporary sacrifice for the greater good. Besides, forming a learning dungeon party doesn’t work, because then they’ll just get a bunch of other people who don’t know what to do, and they’ll learn nothing from their deaths. It is that strange kafkaesque paradox where, to learn to run dungeons in zerker gear, you have to already be able to run dungeons in zerker gear.

#5: As much as I wish this were rare, I find out surprisingly often that it isn’t. GW2 is a multi-national game filled with all levels of devotion to the game. Not everyone is going to pass far enough into the culture of the game and through the language barrier to know that “zerk” means berserker gear, or that “GC” means berserker gear.

Your prospects on diagnosing the problem are dubious at best. When the issue is “why do people join up zerk groups but not in zerk”, this can only be the case when said group is already advertised as “zerk”. If it is not labeled as such, then it is not such. To have elaborate expectations about a party, but don’t indicate or demand these expectations is to be truly irrational.

Likewise, I myself am a zerk player, and I still denounce the evils of elitism regularly. This is because I understand that other people will play differently, and my higher risk for performance is an unnecessary choice that I have made.

Ashen.2907:

1) I commented on elitism. Giving preference to one person because they are superior, or perceived to be so, in some way to an alternative is a form of elitism.

2) Intruding on a group in contradiction of its clearly stated goals and desires is rude and selfish. The community theater across the street from my home advertises ballroom dancing on the first wednesday of each month. It would be very rude and selfish of me to walk in and start square dancing.

5) If there is a word that you do not know being used then you should know to ask. If you are not willing to ask a question in a situation where you know that you are not in the know the consequences are your own.

Of course the expectation is in the mind. It is in the mind of the person who formed the group and labeled the LFG according to that expectation. It is in the minds of those who join a group so labeled. It should be in the mind of anyone seeking to join that group. This is not significantly different than a group labeled as needing one more for HotW and having someone join with the intention of doing AC. If the player doesn’t know what HOTW means he knows that he doesnt know, and has the option to ask. The same is true with a team advertising for a zerker. If a player doesnt know what the word zerker means he knows that he doesnt know and can ask. If I say to you, “Yggdrasil stands tall,” and you do not know what Yggdrasil means you will immediately know so and could ask.

I think that you are over psychoanalyzing the individuals looking for a faster path to game rewards. “Sometimes a cigar,” I mean an advertisement for a speed run, “is just a cigar,” I mean an attempt to complete an objective a bit faster.

#1: Guess again. Elitism is not based on preferences of performance, but exclusion of perceived deficiencies. The word itself is based on the notions of privilege being separated into the sole ruling class, and thus always manifests as an exclusion by standards. There is no “pick A or pick B” option in elitism, only a “don’t pick A”.

#2: As far as these people know and experience, the title is meaningless and thus garners no further expectations, because no one respects them anyway.

#3:You misunderstand how potent a lack of knowledge can be. Because they don’t know what the word means, they don’t know if it is important enough to ask about. The title might as well be the collection of random gibberish that spews out of map chat, and no one cares about that stuff. People go through life encountering unimportant words that have absolutely no impact on their life, and thus aren’t worth learning. Yggdrasil is one of those words.

The whole point of the list is the fact that, no, the speed expectation is not in the mind of people who join up on these groups, nor in the mind of people seeking to join these groups. Hell, sometimes it isn’t even in the mind of the people who form the groups, because they’ll just copy/paste what they see, or they’ll inherit the group from someone else who used those tags and don’t care to change them. While you have done a good job of saying that you hate people who do this, this doesn’t suddenly make it not true.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Besides, forming a learning dungeon party doesn’t work, because then they’ll just get a bunch of other people who don’t know what to do, and they’ll learn nothing from their deaths. It is that strange kafkaesque paradox where, to learn to run dungeons in zerker gear, you have to already be able to run dungeons in zerker gear.

Oddly enough, there was a point in the game when no one knew the dungeons, no one knew how to run in glass gear. Clearly, someone learned how to — starting from scratch. Clearly, these people learned from their deaths. If it was impossible to learn how without being taught, no one would know how. That opportunity is still available. A teaching group is certainly more convenient, but it is hardly a necessity and certainly not a paradox.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Those reasons may all explain why people join efficiency groups when not willing or able to engage in the efficiency play-style. However, they do not excuse butting in where one was not invited. Efficiency players who join “anything goes” groups and demand efficiency, likewise.

Excuses #1 and #2 are simply, “I choose to disregard what others want.” I have no sympathy for those positions.

Numbers 3 and 4 represent legitimate dilemmas. However, there are teaching groups — some are run by members of the dungeon community. Forcing a given group to accept a teaching role, however it may appeal to those wanting it, is not an ideal solution. I tend to be helpful in games, but I’m not always in the mood nor do I always have the time do so. Players can group with the like-minded, or join guilds that offer to take the less experienced on dungeon runs. An LFG group — consisting of random players who’ve advertised they want a fast run — is simply the wrong venue for a teaching experience. It’s not reasonable to expect the convenience of the PuG tool while also expecting a learning experience on demand, with little to no effort on the part of the prospective student.

Number 5 is ignorance. If this is happening, then there are two possibilities. Either the person has learning issues, or is willfully ignorant. I feel for people who have learning issues. I believe that one should not be rude to them. The willfully ignorant I avoid whenever possible. While I do not advocate rudeness to such people, removing them after a polite explanation is not rude — though it may not make one a humanitarian.

None of this is to say that I approve of anyone being rude, talking down to others, kicking without some explanation, etc. However, neither do I believe that people have the right to demand others hang out with them even if they aren’t in tune with what those others want.

I don’t think they excuse butting in, either. My philosophy with forming groups in games is always “his group his rules” system.

Though #2 isn’t disregarding what others want. As far as these people know, a bunch of randoms is exactly what the other bunch of randoms in the group wants.

I form teaching groups myself. I always open my dungeons with “all welcome” and ask if anyone needs to be taught the dungeon before we begin. What I also notice, however, is the rarity of these teaching runs. Fairly recently, I decided to get dungeon master and do CoF and Arah, and were I to sit around waiting for someone to form an LFG specifically to teach me, I’d still be sitting here today. I had to take initiative myself on that one, but most players don’t have the mental fortitude to teach a bunch of other newbs a path they themselves haven’t run yet. Ideally, other people would take this initiative themselves. Realistically, people treat the LFG like a job interview: canned answers, only flaw is that they “work too hard”, and it is O.K. because the system is inherently unfair anyway.

There is another choice for #5: language barrier. I’ve actually met several people who can play games without speaking the language. Though it is as incomprehensible as someone going through life without being literate, it is possible for someone to observes the trends in behavior and learn quite a lot from that. This is actually a form of culture education called “full immersion”, and like full immersion the learning process is about tripping over the whole darn thing until you learn to stand. So, until they eventually figure out that “zerk” means “full berserker gear”, and that it is enforced randomly, they’ll have no proper means of learning.

I would like to see a build check system where:

• You can request to view a player in your party’s gear (stats, skins, upgrades, dyes) and traits, in a window similar to PvP’s build window, by right clicking their name/faceplate.
• You can set to show this info to either: everyone, guild members and friends, friends only, or no one. If a player you are not set to show this info to automatically requests it, you will receive a chat message, and can choose to allow or deny it.

And also a private DPS/stats meter that can be similarly shared. It would be nice to see detailed statistics like damage dealt, damage received, self healing, ally healing, condition damage vs direct damage dealt, attacks interrupted, damage prevented (blinds, blocks, dodges, invulns, etc), number of downs/deaths, revives, etc, but ANet would have to do a lot in terms of server architecture for such a nice tool.

Sins.4782:

I would like to see a build check system where:

• You can request to view a player in your party’s gear (stats, skins, upgrades, dyes) and traits, in a window similar to PvP’s build window, by right clicking their name/faceplate.
• You can set to show this info to either: everyone, guild members and friends, friends only, or no one. If a player you are not set to show this info to automatically requests it, you will receive a chat message, and can choose to allow or deny it.

And also a private DPS/stats meter that can be similarly shared. It would be nice to see detailed statistics like damage dealt, damage received, self healing, ally healing, condition damage vs direct damage dealt, attacks interrupted, damage prevented (blinds, blocks, dodges, invulns, etc), number of downs/deaths, revives, etc, but ANet would have to do a lot in terms of server architecture for such a nice tool.

Unfortunately, while it would seem nice to have these be optional, it leads to “Show or Kick” demands – Refusal to show means you have something to hide.

Sartharina.3542:

Sins.4782:

I would like to see a build check system where:

• You can request to view a player in your party’s gear (stats, skins, upgrades, dyes) and traits, in a window similar to PvP’s build window, by right clicking their name/faceplate.
• You can set to show this info to either: everyone, guild members and friends, friends only, or no one. If a player you are not set to show this info to automatically requests it, you will receive a chat message, and can choose to allow or deny it.

And also a private DPS/stats meter that can be similarly shared. It would be nice to see detailed statistics like damage dealt, damage received, self healing, ally healing, condition damage vs direct damage dealt, attacks interrupted, damage prevented (blinds, blocks, dodges, invulns, etc), number of downs/deaths, revives, etc, but ANet would have to do a lot in terms of server architecture for such a nice tool.

Unfortunately, while it would seem nice to have these be optional, it leads to “Show or Kick” demands – Refusal to show means you have something to hide.

While this would be true in speed/zerk runs, I highly doubt anyone’s going to care enough in other groups. Do you want to be the one in a group of randoms to sound like a kitten by complaining about someone disallowing build check in an unmarked run, and risk kick yourself? For the runs that do require gear checks, this would only speed up filling up group (no waiting on ping gear, giving that one guy 30s or so after he loaded into map to respond, etc), so the only real difference I see would show up in the plainly marked “speed run” groups, which sometimes are filled with players who think their run will be faster because they put speed run in the lfg.

You may get more “your build is bad, run this” type comments in regular runs, but only if players actually have time to spare to stare at other players’ builds. Hardly more than you already see about players running x weapon or y signet, though, and a lot of those types of comments are phrased constructively, anyway.

Sartharina.3542:

Sins.4782:

I would like to see a build check system where:

• You can request to view a player in your party’s gear (stats, skins, upgrades, dyes) and traits, in a window similar to PvP’s build window, by right clicking their name/faceplate.
• You can set to show this info to either: everyone, guild members and friends, friends only, or no one. If a player you are not set to show this info to automatically requests it, you will receive a chat message, and can choose to allow or deny it.

And also a private DPS/stats meter that can be similarly shared. It would be nice to see detailed statistics like damage dealt, damage received, self healing, ally healing, condition damage vs direct damage dealt, attacks interrupted, damage prevented (blinds, blocks, dodges, invulns, etc), number of downs/deaths, revives, etc, but ANet would have to do a lot in terms of server architecture for such a nice tool.

Unfortunately, while it would seem nice to have these be optional, it leads to “Show or Kick” demands – Refusal to show means you have something to hide.

Like current ping or kick?

1. Make your group in LFG with specific requirements so that anyone joining knows what to expect. e.g P# exp ZERK only, ping gear. If a joiner doesn’t follow these simple instructions then you’re well within your rights as the run host to boot them. On the other hand, if you just post LFG P# ZERK and someone joins and you ask ping gear then kick if they don’t, this is unreasonable, because your LFG was unspecific.

2. If you don’t post requirements in LFG then bloody well don’t ask for people to ping gear. It’s your own stupid fault for not being specific. If you do this and kick someone, then you’re just being a kitten.

One simple rule to …well…rule them all

1. Be specific in your expectations.

It’s not about elitism or noobism. Follow this 1 simple rule and all these add ons and what not become unnecessary

I’m against this idea.

I’m a stoopid zerker elitist, if you write gearcheck in your lfg I’ll ping my gear (my real gear, not another I have in my inventory).

But if you want to inspect me, it’s only to know the skins I use. You want more? No.

This is a troll thread (honest truth, and no offense intended) but it serves it purpose to prove to ANet why it would 100% of the time be a bad idea to add any of these things Dark Catalyst assumedly “would like” in the game. Thanks to those with open-minded, intelligent posts at either side of the issue, and to those who posted the usual toxicity (anti-“playwhoyouwants”-a ridiculous epithet if there’s one), well, you just proved why your darned gearscores will (thankfully) never be implemented.

Ultimately, playing in Berserker’s gear is not bad at all (nor is forming your own speedrun, efficiency-minded groups), but being an elitist jerk is. You can be a speedrunner without the jerk/bully part attached to it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The “anticipated speed of the run” is an expectation that only you have.

It is an expectation many, if not most, have when posting or joining a “experienced zerk only” group.

People will join zerk groups while not in zerk for a myriad of reasons that don’t involve hoping other players carry them:

As it turns out, most of the reasons are awful/inexcusable.

#1: They hate elitism and defy these extraneous expectations out of principle.

You mean they are being jerks, great reason that.

#2: They expect everyone else to just join up in whatever they are wearing anyway, and don’t think the tags have any real meaning.

That is a really, really odd expectation to have from their point then now isnt it. It is neither “legitimate” nor is it excusable. If someone asks for “1 more guard” I don’t join using a necro. If someone asks for a group to do dungeon P3, I don’t go in expecting to do P1. If someone makes an Asura only RP party, I don’t join as a Charr. If someone asks for “tanks only!” I don’t join as a glass cannon.

#3: They factually cannot operate in zerker gear, and thus their higher bulk actually gives them higher sustained DPS than zerker gear would.

If you cannot use zerk gear, you don’t go and join “zerk only” groups. It’s not a difficult concept now is it and is an awful excuse.

#4: They just want experience in the run, but since no one will ever form a “teaching n00bs” group they feel like they have to lie just to get their foot in the door. It is hard to learn the content when you die every other attack, so even if they have zerk gear, they want to run with more durability before going out on a limb.

They can experience the run in the multitude of non “experiencedm zerk only!” groups. Again it is a truly awful excuse.

And yes, there are teaching groups and dungeon mentors.

#5: They don’t know what “zerk” is. Funny thing, berserker doesn’t contain the word “zerk” anywhere, so unless they are in the know they won’t know.

The first and only legitimate reason given. Now if they don’t know, they can a) ask, b) join and then get kicked and subsequently know not to do it again (i.e. it is a one off). Strangely though, personally I wouldn’t consider joining a group which lists specific requirements unless I knew what said requirements were in the first place…

You’ve got to realize that the majority of players in the game don’t follow the “zerk or else” meta. They have different ideals, and truly think they are contributing in their own way.

Yeah, that’s not an excuse for joining a group with requirements which you don’t meet. “Oooh this party says zerk only, I’ll join in my PVT anyway I mean I’ll still help a bit!”.

It is quite rare to get players who truly think that, because someone is in berserker gear, that they’ll be carrying them.

And yet people in this very thread are pinging zerk gear and then not wearing it, just to get into zerk groups. Unless they are doing it out of protest/for the lulz (i.e. being jerks) then they are doing it with the idea to be in a faster run (i.e. CARRIED). Otherwise they could take their non zerk, non meta build and join one of the countless non zerk req groups and do the content.

That’s just projection more than anything else.

Not really, no.

It seems new people asking for help or making their own group is too much of a hurdle. I mean crap. I whisper “Zerk” only groups before joining to ask if my Sin/Zerk mix armour is ok to join.

Wait I live in Brooklyn. I know exactly what type of people these are and they will always stay at the bottom with attitudes like that. DW soon is the day I can trial and there will be one less exp pugger in the wild.

Fenrir.3609:

saye.9304:

please report this person calyx.9086 he deserve a ban.
people like him are the reason this game must avoid elitism and never give them tools to make things easier for them to be rude toward others.

Actually the worst aspect of this community is the insanely self entitled crowd who hide behind a warped version of the “play how I want” mantra and go around crying about “elitists” all the time.

People wanting to group with other efficient players is not bad, wrong or damaging for the community. The people who expect to be able to walk into any party with their PVT staff cleric etc regardless as to what the other people in said party want, or those people who carry zerk gear, ping it and then use something else. They are the people who stink up the place quite frankly.

“Play how I want” does not mean that you have a god given right to walk into other peoples groups. Nor does it mean that people should not have access to helpful tools simply because you don’t specifically want to use them.

The correlation between a dps meter and how “rude” the games community is, is also being vastly overstated.

However, the alluded Calyx post was really deplorable. Easily worthy of being infracted, though I didn’t report it myself.

Speedrunners are playing how they want. “Playhowyouwants” is a silly moniker and pejorative that that should have never existed.

I do however believe that playing efficiently by itself is fine. It’s a valid playstyle. Regardless, DPS meters is a no no, because the game really doesn’t need it (no precise “DPS check” to meet to clear most if not all content) and as evident in this thread (for instance, hate posts like Calyx’s) it will 100% for sure be used as a culling tool, rather than as a “self-improvement” mechanism. You can very well play efficiently now as a team without a DPS meter (as has been proven by the most efficient groups), and can just precisely state your group’s requirements on the LFG tool.

The problem with culling is that it becomes “the norm” over time for instanced content, even by players who may not be worthy of culling others because of gear preference. Every character can have a particular gearscore, but no one can score individual player skill-and believe me (though I believe you may agree given a post in this thread) not all players who do not use Berserker’s are actually “bad players”, and obviously enough, “zerk” gear (thus, gearscore) alone won’t make someone a GW2 Superstar.

Star Ace.5207:

However, the alluded Calyx post was really deplorable. Easily worthy of being infracted, though I didn’t report it myself.

Speedrunners are playing how they want. “Playhowyouwants” is a silly moniker and pejorative that that should have never existed.

I do however believe that playing efficiently by itself is fine. It’s a valid playstyle. Regardless, DPS meters is a no no, because the game really doesn’t need it (no precise “DPS check” to meet to clear most if not all content) and as evident in this thread (for instance, hate posts like Calyx’s) it will 100% for sure be used as a culling tool, rather than as a “self-improvement” mechanism. You can very well play efficiently now as a team without a DPS meter (as has been proven by the most efficient groups), and can just precisely state your group’s requirements on the LFG tool.

The problem with culling is that it becomes “the norm” over time for instanced content, even by players who may not be worthy of culling others because of gear preference. Every character can have a particular gearscore, but no one can score individual player skill-and believe me (though I believe you may agree given a post in this thread) not all players who do not use Berserker’s are actually “bad players”, and obviously enough, “zerk” gear (thus, gearscore) alone won’t make someone a GW2 Superstar.

Whilst I am not going to comment on another poster and whether they should be infracted or not (it is not my place to do as such and was not what my post was about), I don’t really disagree with anything you have said there.

I am also (as I have pointed out earlier) currently unconvinced as to how much actual merit a dps meter would have. But feel the debate should be about the mechanics of it, rather some social argument which is nothing other than "ooh let’s bash “teh elitists”". It would certainly make the debate more worthwhile (well as worthwhile as it can be given it is fairly safe to say we will not see party dps meters in this game).

Star Ace.5207:

This is a troll thread (honest truth, and no offense intended) but it serves it purpose to prove to ANet why it would 100% of the time be a bad idea to add any of these things Dark Catalyst assumedly “would like” in the game. Thanks to those with open-minded, intelligent posts at either side of the issue, and to those who posted the usual toxicity (anti-“playwhoyouwants”-a ridiculous epithet if there’s one), well, you just proved why your darned gearscores will (thankfully) never be implemented.

Ultimately, playing in Berserker’s gear is not bad at all (nor is forming your own speedrun, efficiency-minded groups), but being an elitist jerk is. You can be a speedrunner without the jerk/bully part attached to it.

You can’t act like your above the present conversation if you’re going label people as “elitist jerks” in the same breath that you are complaining about others labeling “playhowyouwants.” Doesn’t that seem a little hypocritical?

I don’t know why you guys keep complaining about gearscores. Gearscores worked in WoW because you literally couldn’t beat certain content without X gearscore. That is not the case in GW2, where everything can be beaten wearing anything.

/inspect could be used for reinforcing /lfg preference. but i don’t see why anyone thinks that would be a bad thing. It’s just like pinging your gear except it’s easier to do and more accurate. I never realized how many people ping different sets of gear til i started reading some of the responses in this thread, which leads me to believe pinging isn’t enough.

I try to run dungeon groups without zerkers and /inspect would be a great way to keep zerkers from sneaking into my groups, beyond the other utilities /inspect would provide to new players and players that just like to scope out other people’s builds/gear.

Unless you’re going to be spending a lot of time using the inspect command, what’s to stop someone from taking the time during a lapse in combat to stop wearing zerker gear? In fact, it wouldnt surprise me if people spend more time paranoid about having to use inspect to make sure they’re really wearing zerker.

Seriously, the entire “speedrunzerkonlypingorgtfo” group needs to stop being so paranoid. If you have that much trouble with getting people not wearing zerker joining your group, stop advertising it on LFG and use your friends list and guild rosters to fill it. Paranoia doesnt go away if you’re given the tools that “fix” the issue.

I see this conversation as never having a conclusion simply because those that want the feature:

1) to inform others that may/may not know the current meta to become a better player
2) want a way of seeing what other builds (with future patches) become viable
3) distrust people so they want to weed out the pretenders

Those that don’t want the feature:

1) don’t want to be whispered by strangers telling them to get gud
2) prefer to keep their gear/builds to themselves due to personal privacy (testing out healer gear on a warrior for example)
3) trust players to be friendly and contribute to whatever they may be grouped up for, knowing that occasionally they may have to do a bit more to help those less able

Basically it boils down to personal preference in how we deal with other people. I myself prefer to live and let live, but then again I never answer any LFG DPS!!! groups.

On a side note, ANet could add an internal gearscore that would determine if your dps is high enough to allow you to join/post a LFG so as to show yours is high enough locking out any gear/trait changes once created/joined. It still would not show competence though.

1) DPS meters and inspect commands will not answer the underlying question when inviting someone to your group, which is, I assume, something like “will this player fit in our group” and / or “will this player perform to my expectations”. No tool that we can think of could reliably answer that question.

2) people, quite understandable, do not like to be judged on such simplified criteria

3) people will adjust their behavior to optimize their results against the test-criteria, they will stop sharing boons, they will hesitate to resurrect downed players, they will do whatever it takes to improve their results on the DPS meter.

frans.8092:

1) DPS meters and inspect commands will not answer the underlying question when inviting someone to your group, which is, I assume, something like “will this player fit in our group” and / or “will this player perform to my expectations”. No tool that we can think of could reliably answer that question.

2) people, quite understandable, do not like to be judged on such simplified criteria

3) people will adjust their behavior to optimize their results against the test-criteria, they will stop sharing boons, they will hesitate to resurrect downed players, they will do whatever it takes to improve their results on the DPS meter.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for DPS meters or inspect as a tool to predict player performance. /Inspect would be the closest, but only because people in zerker gear synergize best with other people in zerker gear.

If anything, people are arguing against those tools because of the perception they may be [wrongly] used for predictors of group performance. In that case, just stick to using /lfg properly and there will be no issue.

I don’t think players will alter their playstyle in a way that negatively effects the group because of DPS meters.

First of all, the gameplay fosters this—someone goes down so you keep DPSing to rally.

But more importantly, if you’re going for optimal DPS just for the sake of going for the “high score,” you will also require an optimal group to do this. If people are going down you are not in an optimal setting so attempting optimal “high score” DPS is futile and anyone would know this that is attempting it.

Ultimately, all the issues attributed to “DPS meters” or “inspect” can be more simply attributed to improper usage of the grouping system. If you want a specific group you must spell it out in /LFG, and if you are joining a specific group you should adhere to the /lfg description or make your own party.

It’s really not as difficult as you guys are making it out to be. I feel like you just plain don’t like the idea of DPS meters or inspect and you are reaching out to find different reasons to justify these feelings.

I wouldn’t like damage meters just as they would infer that supporting players would be slacking when they were doing their job.

Regarding the inspect couldn’t it work on skin only basis?
Just hide the stats so ppl won’t discriminate but it would be awesome to just know what bad kitten gear/weapon the other guys is wearing/carrying.

Scrambles.2604:

It’s really not as difficult as you guys are making it out to be. I feel like you just plain don’t like the idea of DPS meters or inspect and you are reaching out to find different reasons to justify these feelings.

I see, whatever I say sucks because you feel I am making up excuses. Thanks, I will not waste any more of my energy on you or your opinions.

This game already has enough elitism. These two features would only serve to drive out the few players left in the game that actually have souls.

I really hope this thread was a joke.

Suggestion: If you want to “control the quality of players” in your party, get some friends and play with them. Perhaps you could set up interviews to efficiently filter these hopeful people into piles of possibles and rejects. But please leave the pugging features alone.

The problem with GW2 dungeons, and high-level PvE in general, is that DPS meters would actually be useful in the present state of affairs. How much damage you do is the primary determinant of how useful you are.

If ANet configured most encounters so that thoughtful use of CC was the most effective way to complete them – for example feedback vs. certain ranged bosses, and retaliation vs. flamethrowers – DPS would not be as important and thus the idea of a DPS meter would not raise alarm bells. It’d be obvious that anyone basing their entire build on DPS was missing the point.

Right now, they aren’t missing the point. That is the game.

I support a dps tool that will acurately tell us how much damage we do over how much time. like the dude from isle of the nameless in gw1. as for inspection, I kind of support it, cuz i hate people who lie about the gear they use.

A Massive Headache.1879:

cuz i hate people who lie about the gear they use.

I dont get why people want to control the pugging experience though. If you hate pugging, play with friends?

Iluth.6875:

A Massive Headache.1879:

cuz i hate people who lie about the gear they use.

I dont get why people want to control the pugging experience though. If you hate pugging, play with friends?

I don’t mind pugs, i don’t like idiots. not all pugs are bad.

Seems like the only people who should realy have an issue with this are the ones who join groups knowing that they do not meet the said requirments. Regardless of which side of the field they fall on.

Honestly though there is no super elite set of gear in this game. At least nothing like we have in others. No swords that give bonuses to certain skills or traits. Nothing that will help a necro get life force faster or let a warrior build up Adrenalin faster.

Worst case we have dedicated elitist who debate between scholars and strength. Although i think that one is settled. Or perhaps which traits are best. Even with this we will still need to find like minded players. Again it would be there because people lie. The game does not.

So in closing if people would stop lying about their gear or intentions we would not need this. However they do so sadly this would keep people honest and in the right groups and not greifing others.

Woljnir.7810:

runeblade.7514:

Woljnir.7810:

runeblade.7514:

Woljnir.7810:

If playing how you want infringes on someone else playing how they want, nothing will ever be solved. Inspect someone and see they have their own build and aren’t zerker, kick right away without even saying anything. Am I doing it right?

Also DPS meters? Really? In a game that basically just consists of 5 man groups of all DPS, I don’t think DPS meters are needed in the least other than to stroke Berserker’s kitten and the need to see the big numbers. And yes, I understand you said nothing about Berserker, but that is honestly how your post comes off.

1. The other way around works too. If someone else plays how they want which I don’t approve, it will infringe on how I play how I want if I let them in my party. In this case, if you don’t want to take the time to equip for the right equipment in my party, then create your own party that accepts anybody even with lower gear levels.

2. There are people that wants to find the highest DPS ever and then there are people like me. I will need DPS meters to know how much DPS I have for this build. I can choose to sacrifice DPS for utility if I need to. Let say that I want to use Ranger Axe/Axe build. First I look for the highest dps possible, then I shave off the dps for utility/survivability if I choose to. There are builds for highest DPS for warriors; however, they all use Greatsword or axe/mace, yet there are no builds for highest mace DPS build. As a mace guy, I assure that it will reinforce on playing how I want.

And this is exactly why it doesn’t exist. Those people who don’t like a person’s build so they just kick them? Yeah, that’s you. The elitism just drips from your post. Sorry that you feel the need to approve of other player’s builds. The “right equipment” isn’t decided by anybody other than the player.

You missed the part where using whatever gear that will hurt the party dps will infringe on my playstyle. It is my party, I created the LFG with the title: “Zerker and experienced only!” I do not want to invite any players that will waste unnecessary time in the dungeon run with DPS so low, it will take for hours to complete.

If you don’t like the way how I play, make your own party. You don’t need to join my party. It cost 0 gold 0 silver 0 copper to make your own lfg. I do create and join parties that accept anyone. These parties do exist and there are players willing to join these parties.

I didn’t miss it though. If you made the party and said “zerker only etc” and that person doesn’t meet that criteria and joined party anyway, then certainly kick them. If the group said Ping gear and they don’t, then kick them. My points are for groups that don’t specifically state what criteria they want in a group, but simply inspect their gear and automatically assume they’re bad. For groups with specifically stated criteria that some scrub joins anyway, by all means kick their butt out.

…versus players looking at their achievement points and automatically assume that they are bad?

Iluth.6875:

A Massive Headache.1879:

cuz i hate people who lie about the gear they use.

I dont get why people want to control the pugging experience though. If you hate pugging, play with friends?

I don’t get why people want to control my pugging experience. If you don’t like how I pug, play with friends?

Scrambles.2604:

Star Ace.5207:

This is a troll thread (honest truth, and no offense intended) but it serves it purpose to prove to ANet why it would 100% of the time be a bad idea to add any of these things Dark Catalyst assumedly “would like” in the game. Thanks to those with open-minded, intelligent posts at either side of the issue, and to those who posted the usual toxicity (anti-“playwhoyouwants”-a ridiculous epithet if there’s one), well, you just proved why your darned gearscores will (thankfully) never be implemented.

Ultimately, playing in Berserker’s gear is not bad at all (nor is forming your own speedrun, efficiency-minded groups), but being an elitist jerk is. You can be a speedrunner without the jerk/bully part attached to it.

You can’t act like your above the present conversation if you’re going label people as “elitist jerks” in the same breath that you are complaining about others labeling “playhowyouwants.” Doesn’t that seem a little hypocritical?

I don’t know why you guys keep complaining about gearscores. Gearscores worked in WoW because you literally couldn’t beat certain content without X gearscore. That is not the case in GW2, where everything can be beaten wearing anything.

/inspect could be used for reinforcing /lfg preference. but i don’t see why anyone thinks that would be a bad thing. It’s just like pinging your gear except it’s easier to do and more accurate. I never realized how many people ping different sets of gear til i started reading some of the responses in this thread, which leads me to believe pinging isn’t enough.

I try to run dungeon groups without zerkers and /inspect would be a great way to keep zerkers from sneaking into my groups, beyond the other utilities /inspect would provide to new players and players that just like to scope out other people’s builds/gear.

Zero hypocrisy (I check myself for that all the time), as I have never opposed speed running. It’s great, though not a play style meant for 100% of players to enjoy. Being an elitist jerk is the problem-you can be an open-minded, truly elite player who doesn’t care about what others use, and since you are so sure of your choices and skills, you have no need to call others that most idiotic of “insults”: “playhowyouwants”. You don’t need to be a bully/disrespectful human being just because you deem yourself a good player.

So in short, you probably don’t know what my real stance on this issue is. There’s a difference between being elite, and being elitist. The latter lends itself too much to being a real **i*k to others because of ill-placed delusions of grandeur-the truly good players need not put others down and call them names, since they have no need for such immature behaviour to “prove” they are “above the norm” (hint: nobody cares about how great you think you are, and this is not aimed at you Scrambles.)