Guild Wars 2

Crovax.7854:

Just a little feedback for ANet and something they might have not considered when designing the Mordrem bosses. At least in the new bossfights, dead people are everywhere. Now I get it, sometimes you have lagg, sometimes you can’t react in time, whatever. But after the 4th or 5th time today of me being the only one alive at amber (out of ~20 people) I’ve had enough! What’s wrong with all those players?
Their useless body is needlessly scaling the boss up, they attract other players who might get tricked into thinking ressing the completely dead is a good idea instead of doing damage/popping bubbles, and let’s be honest, those bossfights are a damage race. They are actively dragging down the whole map by just lying there!

Why not just WP and run again? The rewards are given to everyone who participated, even those outside the area without the downsides of being a burden to everybody else, most of all the guy who has to solo the fricking boss because apparently 20 people can’t be bothered to move outside of the bright orange zone and just die within one or two minutes. By now most players have realized how to make gold/silver vulnerable but 90% of the time I (reluctantly, because of this very reason,)command indigo I see it fail because around three quarters of my little zerglings run straight into their AoE and get killed after around a minute or so. Now that’s fine but why for gods sake are you not WP’ing, thus making the fight harder for everybody else?!

I don’t mind bad players, but as it stands now they are an actual burden not only to myself but the whole map and from what I’ve seen the sole reason 5/5 rarely happens.
So please ANet, for future bossfights please auto-WP dead players to the nearest waypoint, maybe even free of charge. (Pretty please.)

PS: Sorry for making it sound a bit rant-y.

edit: Shamelessly changed topic name to attract more traffic.

This also was a problem during the Queen’s Pavilion event. I agree that something should be done.

These people are used to other games in which you either get revived or lose all the shinnies.

But in here, if people stops to revive you, they will also go down, and when everyone’s down, nobody gets any shinnies.

Reviving at the waypoint and running back is the best thing to do here.

So, what we need is to re-educate players, making sure people has good reasons to revive instead lying there doing nothing.

For example, add a timer with a message that appears when defeated while in open world, explaining that if you don’t revive before the timer runs out, you will be considered to be AFK for the event, and forfeit all progress you had in any events in which you were participating.
But If you do revive, you keep the progress and get any rewards at the end of the event even if you are not around when the event ends.

Now, the next problem. If you do that, you will instantly get tons of those annoying and extremely impolite “rez pls” (To busy lying there doing nothing to be bothered to write a whole sentence, eh? EH?), as they read the message and will urgently want to get revived.

To solve that, you must change things so using a waypoint will work better, or even be the only option compared to get revived. Because you can’t go around asking people for revivals in the middle of a hard boss. They’ll go down too!

So maybe it’s time to get rid of in-combat revival in open world altogether. In PvP and WvW in-combat revival would be removed too, keeping it only for PvE instances where it may be a necessity because of unforgiving bosses and being unable to use waypoints in combat

So, if things get changes so while in open world, you can help downed but can’t help revived until the danger is over, players will kindly inform you that they can’t revive you while they are in combat once you are defeated, only if you are down.

With those two things: Pressure to revive, and impossibility of being revived in combat from defeated. Players would have no choice but suck it up and pay the 1.39~1.70 silver to revive.

Oh, and run back to help and make sure the event is completed, if they really want to make sure they get rewards.

ProtoGunner.4953:

I sometimes lay there for 2-3 mins to see if someone can rez me. But only if the WP is rather far away (which is the case in Silverwastes). The problem is that you sometimes get downed extremely fast. I usually run Berserker gear only and in the cluttered enemy areas there are single attacks that can almost insta down you. I can’t simply play always fully concentrated, especially when I play several hours.

It takes a lot less time than that to run from the WP.

How about an temporary waypoint pops up near these raid like boss battles during the fight? Only dead players within the proximity can use it of course.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

How about an temporary waypoint pops up near these raid like boss battles during the fight? Only dead players within the proximity can use it of course.

That would only increase the zergyness and trivialize everything. Dead? Respawn 10 feet away and instantly be right back in the fight. We don’t want to just shotgun players at a boss until it dies. Death needs to have real consequences. This problem isn’t about making encounters easier. It’s about changing the behavior of dead players so that they naturally want to waypoint and run back.

Xenon.4537:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

How about an temporary waypoint pops up near these raid like boss battles during the fight? Only dead players within the proximity can use it of course.

That would only increase the zergyness and trivialize everything. Dead? Respawn 10 feet away and instantly be right back in the fight. We don’t want to just shotgun players at a boss until it dies. Death needs to have real consequences. This problem isn’t about making encounters easier. It’s about changing the behavior of dead players so that they naturally want to waypoint and run back.

IMO, it SHOULD BE that the encounter encourages teamwork and strategy to overcome, adapting to changing situations and loose communication to accomplish that strategy. Changing the behavior of dead players to naturally WP back is exactly the same as putting a WP close by to zerg it. It’s just less convenient and often times excludes those that cannot make it back in time before the encounter ends.

I’d sooner accept that Rally-Point idea (sort of like if you get killed in an inaccessible area in a dungeon) so that players can organize a triage to more safely bring people back into the fight. Sure, it may create a similar ‘zerg’ type of mentality, but at least it requires the cooperation of players to get vs gaming the system and just using a WP over and over again.

Crovax.7854:

In regards to all the people asking for reviving speed of dead to be boosted – no.
Being completely defeated is meant to take you out of the fight, hence the long time it takes to revive. Defeated players are by design meant to either WP or be revived after the fight or in between waves in a wave based event.

Any solution that involves lessening the time it takes to revive deafeted players is in my opinion really short-sighted as it just makes every event incredibly zergable – something the Devs have shown they don’t want as the last couple of open world releases from Pavillion onwards always encouraged zerg splitting.

In case someone from the Devs is reading this and wondering why the initial post was asking for porting players outside of the event and not for, say, more frequent scans of active players or taking defeated out of the equation for scaling, it was mainly after taking the Devs into consideration.

I know ANet is stretched pretty thin atm with the LS releases and whatever they’re working on on the side so I was proposing something that’s already in the game and doesn’t require a big amount of developing time or is probably flat out impossible.
Scanning the active players for example may even be impossible with their current server structure. The same goes for removing dead players from scaling; I’m not an IT guy but I’m sure this would require a lot of work on their scaling engine-thingy.

Simply moving players is already in the game; it happens during cutscenes, story and even when we enter the bossfights themselves. My proposition was just based on my view that the problem is solved most effectively with almost no dev-time that way.

Being revived from dead in combat takes less time than running back from the waypoint unless you died at Redrocks or Indigo. maybe even less time then.

Devildoc.6721:

Being revived from dead in combat takes less time than running back from the waypoint unless you died at Redrocks or Indigo. maybe even less time then.

Yes… there is a reason why we try to revive the pack bulls instead of letting them waypoint.

Getting each other up is VERY fast if enough people care to participate.

Here’s another reason I wouldn’t want to be auto-WP’d. I sometimes multi-task during events…as in doing something in my browser, and not bothering to pay attention to what my character is doing. If I die because I left myself in a vulnerable spot, I’ll eventually WP out when I return to actively playing the game…I don’t want the game WP’ing me because it might not have been the WP I would have chosen to go to.

Trinibaje.7683:

I’m going to say, I spent the weekend camping Amber to get The Executioner to spawn. We got him to spawn twice, but didn’t succeed. Then this morning, he spawned again.. I know I hit him multiple times, I died twice and and waypointed. While running back the second time, I made it to the gate as he died.. and NO reward… I probably won’t wp again in the future, if I’m not going to get the reward cause I was running back or in the middle of waypointing. I now have to do it all again, to get the achievement… it sucks. Took me 3 days to get to today, to have him actually killed on the server instance I was in.. and I didn’t get it. VERY frustrating!!!!

Therein lies part of the problem to those who say “just WP and run back”. In the Silverwastes, there is no nearby WP to re spawn at. Because the Devs decided to make the whole map have only a single, non centrally located WP, its impossible to wp and run back, to say, Blue Oasis from the WP, there just isn’t enough time.

Anything that moves characters without the player’s consent is going to be really unpopular. Don’t do it. It is bound to have unwanted side effects. Keep control in the player’s hands.

There is a technical limitation in GW2 that players have only one choice of thing to do and that is chosen by the game and put onto one key. It’s a bit like walking into a supermarket and being asked if you want beans, and if you don’t want beans you can’t have anything else. This causes many of the problems with reviving since the interface only offers you one action, it might be revive or it be something else, it might be the right person or it might be the wrong person, it doesn’t tell you who will be revived by your action.

GW2 at some stage needs to get beyond that technical limitation and give a choice of two actions to a player and properly describe the target of each action (such as the player you are reviving). Other games can do this. We’re in the 21st century now and GW2 should do basic activation better.

Perhaps the best solution would be to shorten the time that inactive/dead players contribute to event scaling. If they stop contributing to scale-up sooner, the effect on completion would be similar to their being auto-ported. Their bodies would still be there, but they would no longer scale events up and they would retain control of whether they port or not.

Crovax.7854:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Infernia.9847:

I think a major question should be asked before this change takes place:
Exactly how event scaling works.

The GW2 Wiki page:

Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating. Events can scale in a number of ways:

Enemy stats can be increased
Enemies can gain new abilities
New enemy types may appear, including veterans or even champion versions
Enemy count can be increased
Objective requirements may increase

Most events scale for up to 10 players.Group events and large scale events such as the finale for meta events will scale much higher. For example, The Shatterer scales up to 100 players. Events can detect that players have not performed any actions relating to the event within a period of time and will scale down the event accordingly.

Dang, I knew I should have consulted the wiki about that!

I wasn’t sure if scaling adjusted (as it clearly does) and that was one of the questions I was going to ask the devs. So thanks for sharing that info!

Well that’s all fine and from my experience scaling back does happen after a certain amount of time, that’s right, but with a 5 minute timelimit on those fights it just takes too long. Even if it takes 1 minute, the damage is already done considering the healthpools are rather high.

My proposition is instant scaling back if people move outside of a fights boundaries and a 10 second countdown when a person dies. The countdown is frozen when another players starts a ress and, should he not ress the player fully, starts at 10 seconds again.

I like being able to ress other palyers in the open world and at certain events
but at events with a timelimit, especially those that are as tight as the new bossfights this would move the focus from ‘yolo and leeche when you’re dead’ to more kind of trying to not die and be actually useful. As it stands dying for most players is something they don’t avoid because of a certain mindset that ‘better players’ will carry me anyways’.

Plus, ported palyers don’t loose out on rewards as account chests are awarded regardless of location.

Ps: Changing the title was probably the best thing; apologies if the initial one was offensive but I was rather agitated after repeatedly solo carrying a group of 20 other players.

Belenus.9132:

A little off subject but valid nevertheless is that downed players (whether they are just plain unlucky or got cornered by more beast-power than they could handle) inspire other players to take time out from their busy slaughter-thon to help them up. I spend a lot of my time in the Silverwastes doing this. Fact is as Arcos Shiningpaw I now spend my time between hard combat and helping others with emphasis on helping as the place would be a hellsapopping with corpses if somebody didn’t have a care and do so.

Being able to help downed players is a unique and awesome feature in this game. I like to do this myself but dead players, in a situation where time does matter, are a hindrance.

On that way ppl can just tag then run out of the event range for scale down and abuse the system.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

How about an temporary waypoint pops up near these raid like boss battles during the fight? Only dead players within the proximity can use it of course.

This idea sound way better, WP cost increased aswell for balance the thing.

Another thing, is when you have to be there, and alive, to loot. THAT is why so many don’t WP. If all loot would be sent to the player, if they were in the zone, regardless of where they are, more would be willing to leave. But when I am killed, and I know there is a champ bag on that boss, I’m more apt to stay put, waiting for a rez.

Keysha.2815:

Another thing, is when you have to be there, and alive, to loot. THAT is why so many don’t WP. If all loot would be sent to the player, if they were in the zone, regardless of where they are, more would be willing to leave.

Great news: That’s exactly how the new bosses work.

Stooperdale.3560:

Anything that moves characters without the player’s consent is going to be really unpopular. Don’t do it. It is bound to have unwanted side effects. Keep control in the player’s hands.

Players would have complete control over whether they’re ported. Easiest solution to prevent unwanted removal: don’t die and be useful.

Another solution is to remove the event reward if a player remains defeated for too long. So for example, if a defeated player is not resses or does not waypoint within say 30 seconds (or less), they are removed from the event and do not gain the reward.

That way, if players are unable to res, the player is encouraged to waypoint for fear of losing out on the reward, and any associated achievement progression (daily/monthly event completion, etc).

Why would a lazy player wp when they can just lay there and reap the reward for little effort? By removing the reward (incentive) players will have to actively participate, and that includes waypointing to get back into the action faster.

While we are on the subject of players not waypointing, I would also like to point out that I see a lot of players who simply run passed a downed (not defeated) player and do not res them. While I understand that some players are constantly getting downed, and in these situations I agree to ignoring them as it’s a waste of effort ressing them, but I often see players would do not always go down (but might have lagged or misjudged a boss spike) and players will just ignore them while standing next to them spamming ‘1’. The downed state is there for a reason, some players need to learn that.

The education, and incentive, needs to work both ways. Defeated players need to learn that sometimes a waypoint is better, and some players need to learn that a downed player often needs help getting back into the fight.

One way to encourage players, to assist downed players, would be to offer a much higher reward. But a reward that rapidly degrades the more you res the same player. So for example, the XP gained from helping a downed player would be substantially increased (2 to 3 times higher than it currently is?). Maybe even add a Karma reward for ressing downed players (after all, surely helping a fellow adventurer would improve your karma right?).

However, after the first res, any subsequent ressing of the same player, within a given time frame, would reward much less XP (and maybe lose the Karma reward), to the point where after being ressed twice players will receive no XP or Karma. This degredation of reward would ensure that players do not cheat the system for free XP & Karma, while at the same time provide a real incentive for players to res downed players.

I am not against an auto-waypoint system, but I feel the time to waypoint would need to be fairly long (no less than 60 seconds) or it may just end up being a frustration in some situations.

At the end of the day, there are two main reasons why these situations happen: 1) Players not being educated well enough. 2) Players being lazy. It is down to Anet to solve both these issues by using efficient tutorials and incentives. There will always be new players who do not understand the system and there will always be lazy players willing to let others do the work for them. If Anet can teach and encourage better play, these situations will be reduced/prevented.

Just make characters that are under the “dead” state not count towards upscaling or in case the boss/event is already upscaled because of the initial numbers, just make it auto-adguest taking in consideration the extra factor of “state:dead”

“…my little zerglings…”
I just wanted to point out how adorable that sounds.

About the idea. It would have to be designed in such a way so it wouldn’t punish people who prefer to be dead. Sounds funny, I know, but whenever I die I find myself laying on the ground and singing just for the fun of it while hoping someone passing by will ress me.
I’m not sure if it’s best to just automatically WP the people who are dead and afk for say…1 minute, or if some kind of voting system would be a good idea.

Perhaps the easiest solution would be…setting boss’s strenght(not HP) according to the LIVING players around him? It might still be a bit long to kill, but it won’t deal unfair insane damage.

SKATE.1394:

Crovax.7854:

My proposition is instant scaling back if people move outside of a fights boundaries and a 10 second countdown when a person dies. The countdown is frozen when another players starts a ress and, should he not ress the player fully, starts at 10 seconds again.

Is there a reason you feel there should be a 10 second window for a dead player? A dead player can’t do damage nor provide buffs, so in my opinion he should be immediately removed from the player pool for scaling.

Edit: And by removed I mean not counted towards the event difficulty scale, not removed from the area by automatically being waypointed.

If the downscaling happens instantly, this removes the penalty for people dying. This is bad for two different reasons, and for two different types of players:
1) Good players are not punished for failure, removing challenge which they like
2) Bad players are better off dead, everyone else will want the bad players in bad gear and builds to die ASAP

Good players will not like this as much because it removes challenge, and bad players will not like this as much because no one else will want to help them survive. A nearly useless player scaling up the event is more useful than a dead body scaling up the event much of the time (sometimes an alive bad player can be worse than a dead one, namely Rangers that hit LB4 whenever it is off cool down), thus under the current circumstances there is some reason for better players to help bad players.

I don’t think anything needs to be done as long as the long dead do not continue to scale the event up. This game revolves around cooperative play, which means (to me) to not only damage the mobs but to also revive the downed and resurrect the dead. As some have pointed out before, it takes just seconds for multiple people to resurrect a player compared to a minute or two from a waypoint to run back into the fray.
With this game you have a lot of diversity when it comes to unskilled vs skilled, hardcore vs casuals as well as people with slower vs fast computer and internet speeds.
The game is never going to be perfect for everyone.

Theftwind.8976:

In the case of Indigo one has to take into consideration the distance between the waypoint and where the person died. As Indigo is the furthest away from the waypoint then one can expect to see more dead bodies. You will see this everywhere you have a major battle, the further away from an uncontested waypoint the more dead bodies you will have.

Possible solution? Have the totally dead auto removed from the battle but instead of placing them at the nearest uncontested waypoint have them dropped in a safe area just out of range of the action and give them a 10-20 seconds summon sickness such as when using a revive orb. That penalty would increase on consecutive deaths. Give people a few seconds to decide to waypoint and run back normally or be placed into the safe area with summon sickness.

Call it a M.A.S.H. if you will. You can have a Doctor in the unit (call him Hawkeye) that for a fee will remove the summon sickness, a nurse that will grant you a temporary speed boost so you can get back to the battle (Hotlips) and even a armor repair station (man that with Klinger, a guy with whiskers in a sexy dress)

:)

This is a good idea. If you go to the next nearest WP, often my loot is gone by the time I get back.

Crovax.7854:

Why not just WP and run again?

The only waypoint in the entire zone is often more than one minute away. Access to the chest after many fights is limited-time only. I think that if we had easier access (i.e. close uncontested waypoints and/or fewer mobs to plow through on the way back to the fight), players would WP and run in a heartbeat.

In regard to Silverwastes, if the mobs there temporarily quit spawning during the boss fights, many of the downed would be more inclined to make the run back. As it is, they can either wait out the 45 more seconds that it’s going to take the fight to end or WP and run back, knowing that there is no way that they can make it back in 45 seconds or less.

TL;DR – If the penalty for WPing and running back weren’t so stiff, then players would be more inclined to take it. Right now there is no good incentive to do that.

Just did 2 breaches and maybe if we could get something official on that matter:

Did you guys over at ANet change the health on the bosses, like scale it WAY down?
I swear player behaviour didn’t change but the bosses lost health so incredibly fast that we were done with all 5 after 2mins30.

If you’ve got credit for the event already, why bother waypointing and running back. It’s not as if you’re missing out on loot drops.

Crovax.7854:

Just did 2 breaches and maybe if we could get something official on that matter:

Did you guys over at ANet change the health on the bosses, like scale it WAY down?

Is there any confirmation for this?

I didn’t visit the breach event any more because of the matter with zerging, dying, waypointing and the reward for the ever-failing event not being satisfatory to compensate for the troubles in the fight. I was going to skip the new collection for the new armor handpiece where we have to collect the Mordrem pieces all over again and more, where we are now forced to collect 2000 bandit tokens instead of playing the story 2 more times.

Know what would kind of help?

make those resurrection skills that most classes have work on dead players not just downed, in PVE.

Not in WvW for obvious reasons, warbanner is already powerful enough, but for every class but warrior their resurrection skills are just…. bad, they have long cast times long cooldowns, usually only single target or maybe 2-3 target, and in the time that you could cast the skill on a DOWNED person, you could have rubbed the ground and brought them back up just as fast.

Perhaps the systems guys should really take a look at the resurrection utilities. After all, in GW1 we had resurrection skills and they were used extensively, even in PVP.

The cooldowns on the res skills I know of are so long as to keep them balanced even if they did res a person from fully dead.

Signet of Mercy: 1 target, 4 second cast, 2.5 minute cooldown, not that good of a passive effect. Only usable on downed, small radius.
Nobody uses this, in 4 seconds you can just massage someone up, with no cooldown, the same range, and have a 3rd utility skill that actually does something.

“Search and Rescue”: 1 target, it’s an instant shout but the effect is really slow, 1/3 of normal massage revive rate, 1.5 min cooldown. In the time that the pet is reviving, you could do it yourself 3x faster, and since it only works on downed, not defeated, it’s pointless, if the downed person has to wait that long to be ressed they will probably get fully defeated in that time, AND end up killing the pet. Nobody uses this.

Glyph of Renewal: has neat effects but all of them feature the same problem.. almost 3 min cooldown, 3.25s cast time, single target (except earth which will revive 3). I main elementalist and have played Ele for about 1500 hours and I have used this skill once, just to try it, and decided it was junk, and never touched it again. I don’t see other eles using it either.

Illusion of Life: only 1.25s cast time, which is decent, but target is only temporarily alive, unless they kill something to rally, making it useless against any boss without adds, it’s just over a 2 minute cooldown which is alright for a revive skill, but still, single target, and only downed. I’ve CARRIED this on my mesmer only as a joke on a guildmate who happened to die a lot, I was saying I was bringing it for him. Never used it, it’s just better to ground rub them up.

Signet of Undeath: 3 second cast, 3 minute cooldown, 3 targets (which is actually good vs how many are single target), small radius (which is bad, most times you’ll only get up one person).

Throw Elixir R: Like the pet res from ranger, it’s a slow pulsing res (on 5 targets at least..) on downed players. With that slow of a res, they will probably fully die instead.

Battle Standard and Nature’s Renewal (when rangers actually use the spirit, but most I’ve seen don’t) are aoe, fast to use (Battle Standard is 2s but that’s still faster than rubbing someone up, especially since it’s aoe).

Those are elite skills which is why I guess they’re actually useful.

The normal utility resses? All junk.

Gaile if you’re still here, can you bring this point up with Jon and Isaiah or anyone else appropriate (those are just the names I know that deal with skill balance) please? I think these skills are due for an overhaul. Whether it’s making them instant cast and all affecting up to 3 targets (with a larger radius) or keeping them with the longer cast times and letting them work on fully defeated players.. something needs done. The current implementations are just not something people use.

The problem with the mentioned encounter is the actual distance to the wp, people fighting teq for example get spammed porting to the wp and it actually ain’t that far away, there’s too much players lingering around who are actually too lazy to run down, or are afraid they actually won’t get credit for completing the encounter while running back.
Actually just clarifying this more to players (they’ll actually get credit for the encounter) would work wonders I think. Although I do agree some encounters need an automatic ‘on death wp’ , not because of the up/downscaling, since that is not the major problem , it’s just the dying people’s behaviour, and the general consensus of ‘hey look we’re in a huge event, there’s tons of people, I can spend 20 seconds rezzing a fully death guy, my dps isn’t going to make a difference’ that make these events more annoying than they should be. Dungeons should NEVER have an automatic on death wp, while in general most of the open world encounters would benefit from it imo.

How about putting in a report option for leeching?

Yeah, it really doesn’t matter if a WP is close by, I’ve noticed. Players will lay there dead and ask for a res if there’s an ongoing event.

Yeah. As an engineer it is really really annoying. We have really crappy down skills… (Throw ROCKS?! REALLY?!) and a pull that while it synergizes with the big knockback explosion doesn’t do much to help us get back up…

Biggest problem with some of it is that the waypoint is far away, and players don’t want to miss out on the loot :x In silverwastes nearly every mob has a cripple, torment or immobilize…

This applies more to World Bosses and legendary/champions. That kitten ed box fades out so fast. There was this time when I went dead just before the legendary died and by the time i was rezed the box faded. Not to mention there was this $%$#^@$ ranger standing next to me spamming his 1 on a longbow.

Perhaps the best solution would be to implement a triage area outside near the fight, but everyone who dies is instantly spawned there and left dead. (Remember Lions Arch, when players didn’t leave the place in time?) Basically force some players to rez people who are transported there. In such a case, players who help out at the triage area gets the same recognition as those who participated in the fight itself.

There’s a significant vein of elitism going through this thread- players that die are ‘bad’, have lousy builds/gear, can’t play right, are a burden on the ‘real’ players and don’t ‘deserve’ any rewards.

Everyone who plays deserves to participate in open world events, and receive the rewards for those events, even if they aren’t perfectionist players. No one should be punished or evicted for dying.

Change how dead players impact the scaling, so that piles of the dead don’t make it harder on the people still standing, make it helpful to rez the dead people, instead of ignoring them; but don’t treat them like trash that needs taken out, no matter what some people act like.

This was one of the biggest problems with Queen’s Pavilion (short of zergs). People who would die on, say, Boom-Boom, then just lay there and wait for a revive while the living people are trying to DPS race the turret that their currently-useless slab of meat is scaling up.

Still, I’ve seen people be within viewing distance of the WP in Dry Top while fighting Colocal Queen (and sometimes practically right on top of it) and still sit and scream for a revive. So no, I don’t think that making rewards teleport to the person (like in WvW) will fix it enough. I say just make them not count towards scaling and, if they stay dead long enough, remove them from having taken part in the event.

Making rewards teleport to the player, though, lends itself to more abuse by having people run in, smack the enemy around a bit, then run off and move to the next event, leaving whoever’s legitimately trying to fight the enemy to do so with less people. Why stick around to help fight when you could just tag it with a couple hits and then go get more rewards while your loot follows you? This hurts even more in fights or events where being there even temporarily can make it harder for people sticking around, be it through extra add spawns or whatever. Or heck, if someone runs in, tags champ, dies, why would they run back after WPing? They’re gonna get their loot by just sitting there. Granted, they’re no longer there to scale up, but they could have helped. Now they’d have no reason to return.

Filaha.1678:

This was one of the biggest problems with Queen’s Pavilion (short of zergs). People who would die on, say, Boom-Boom, then just lay there and wait for a revive while the living people are trying to DPS race the turret that their currently-useless slab of meat is scaling up.

Still, I’ve seen people be within viewing distance of the WP in Dry Top while fighting Colocal Queen (and sometimes practically right on top of it) and still sit and scream for a revive. So no, I don’t think that making rewards teleport to the person (like in WvW) will fix it enough. I say just make them not count towards scaling and, if they stay dead long enough, remove them from having taken part in the event.

Making rewards teleport to the player, though, lends itself to more abuse by having people run in, smack the enemy around a bit, then run off and move to the next event, leaving whoever’s legitimately trying to fight the enemy to do so with less people. Why stick around to help fight when you could just tag it with a couple hits and then go get more rewards while your loot follows you? This hurts even more in fights or events where being there even temporarily can make it harder for people sticking around, be it through extra add spawns or whatever. Or heck, if someone runs in, tags champ, dies, why would they run back after WPing? They’re gonna get their loot by just sitting there. Granted, they’re no longer there to scale up, but they could have helped. Now they’d have no reason to return.

Their reason to return would be to get more loot. There’s more mobs that spawn during events, if you want loot from all those mobs, you have to stay and hit all those mobs, not just a few. They’d still get the exp/karma from participating in the event sure, but not loot.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

There’s a significant vein of elitism going through this thread- players that die are ‘bad’, have lousy builds/gear, can’t play right, are a burden on the ‘real’ players and don’t ‘deserve’ any rewards.

Everyone who plays deserves to participate in open world events, and receive the rewards for those events, even if they aren’t perfectionist players. No one should be punished or evicted for dying.

Change how dead players impact the scaling, so that piles of the dead don’t make it harder on the people still standing, make it helpful to rez the dead people, instead of ignoring them; but don’t treat them like trash that needs taken out, no matter what some people act like.

I see your viewpoint. Truly, I do. Even recognizing what it means… I guess it makes me elitist. Which for the record does not please me.

The problem with just eliminating the issue with dead bodies scaling events does nothing to address people tagging events/bosses and staying there doing nothing to contribute to the event. If I had to guess, I figure it would actually make “taggers” more common because the risk of event failure would then become practically nonexistent.

Everyone does deserve to participate. I will not ever argue that. I’ll even go so far as to say that all “participants” should get rewarded. However I will argue that those contributing the most should get larger rewards. To such an extent that the lazy players AND the unpracticed players would feel compelled to step up their game.

The big question I would raise is if its possible for ArenaNet to develop a system that can accurately determine a player’s contribution? Another serious matter to address is what constitutes as event contribution? Outside of events that require you to find Objects ‘A’ and return them to NPC ‘B’ – There is really only one thing. Damage.

Damage.
Not rezzing downed or dead players.
Not staying alive.
Not supporting your allies.
Not control.

It is why many players favor Berserker, and similar stat combos, so heavily. Before the Zerkers in this thread snap at me — I agree that the stat combo is fine and that skilled players can and do use it effectively. But lets be honest here… There are a LOT of players out there that are not learning to do better. At present they don’t have to and apparently by threads such as this it is taboo to even consider that they should.

Personally I’m not asking for perfection. I am asking that people use the tools at their disposal and show some measure of human intelligence. What do I mean by this? We have so many skills and traits in our available kitten nal that can address many problems but it takes time to learn them. Take the time. Practice. Learn to dodge when you need to evade. Realize that tanking with your face, regardless of your profession, is a risk. Study event/boss mechanics. Understand boons, conditions, control, blast finishers, combo fields, etc.

In real combat it is a risk to dive in without any skill and/or knowledge of your opponent. I would like to see some measure of that sense into combat in GW2. If you are familiar with an event/boss and you’re confident, that’s one thing, but if you’re new to something then I think you should exercise caution. Check your enemy. Check your allies. Respond accordingly.

Players are not being encouraged to exercise caution, unfortunately. * shrugs *

This topic is important to me and I would really like to see it addressed. But it is also draining….

go in reverse
if people wp on their own, normal wp price
if they are teleported by the system after 5-10seconds, -10 silver fine

from 2.5-ish years we are confronted with this “play how you want” system.

But I like tagging and then afking so I can watch swedish documentaries.

Ignore this thread Anet.kthx.

Jabronius.8674:

How about putting in a report option for leeching?

I can see it now mass banning for false reports of leeching when people report for weapon/skill/profession use that is, in the reporter opinion, leeching. By all means do it the game might be a better place after a while of it.

Ok, I yield on the revive speed/zerg issue. I had thought that getting those players back into the action faster would be a good thing for those in the fight.

To those who feel that zerging would reduce the challenge, I say that removing dead players from the upscale equation by teleporting them out with the intent to downscale the event also reduces the challenge for those that still live.

So here’s another alternative idea. What if those dead players provided a cumulative event buff if their presence was still effecting the event?

Everyone wants to avenge their fallen comrades in arms! They can’t fight with us, but they can inspire us! At least until such time that we can revive them on our own. There should be no reason to punish someone for dieing by removing them against their will.

This would also end leeching since even the dead would contribute to the success of the living. Sadly, the dead would most likely not receive the best of rewards since their active participation would be less than the living.

Let reviving count toward event participation as well. Heroic healing actions under fire should also inspire others, just like our memories of the dead and need for vengeance. Those who revive should also count for the buff while not doing damage but at a reduced rate for any active pets still fighting.

At the core of the issue is… there’s really no way to discourage kitteny player behavior. If a player wants to be a leech and not pull his/her weight, no mechanic or incentive is going to change that.

I think the idea of temporary rally points closer to major fights is a good one- was talking with another player and he said, “If I’m downed in the Breach and someone rezzes me, I can go back to being an active participant in the battle- if I WP out, I’m done. The odds of me getting back in time to do anything is really low.”

During Scarlet Invasions, I saw a lot fewer bodies just lying there waiting to be rezzed than I see now- I think that was because there were always WPs nearby that you could go to, and still be able to get back into the fight. With Silverwastes, getting back into a Breach after WPing is a lot less likely, especially if you were at Blue or Amber.

Maybe the problem isn’t assumed ‘leeching’, and ‘not pulling weight’ it’s the culture of anti-rezzing aka “How dare you ask me to take time out of my causing damage to help you.” Maybe some of these battles would go better if people stopped to help their fallen allies, instead of yelling at them to go away.

I still say that making the revive skills that many classes have work on dead players, at least in PVE, is the solution. Currently nobody uses those skills, nobody ever slots them, if they were actually useful, people might slot them.

Waypoint and run back is only better if the waypoint is close enough that running back takes a shorter time than being ressed, which is not always the case. Silverwastes is a prime example because you have a 5 minute timer on the breach event and it takes 2 minutes to run back across the zone.

It takes less time to res someone than 2 minutes, but people won’t do it since it personally affects them and they couldn’t care less if the dead person misses out on the event and doesn’t get credit for something (say a mordrem fang that they would have gotten if they’d been in range) while running back.

Grenth Cathedral event is another prime offender here, you run halfway across cursed shore with mobs that pull and immobilize along the way. I’ve missed out on the end of the priest event due to getting killed by corruption if the people who are supposed to be killing shades are dead or not doing their job… so there’s a champ bag and possibly missing some waves of the defense event that can be another couple champ bags and trash drops.. while running back halfway across the zone.

Saying “just WP” isn’t an attractive option if it’s a long run and you miss out on things.

Better to make res skills usable.

Remember when you first played the game and it felt like a lot of Jolly Cooperation because people ressed the downed instead of just letting them die and have to run back to the event? Yeah, I’d like that back, more community, less putting people down and making them miss out.

I’d gladly slot glyph of renewal if it was a viable skill.

Azhure.1857:

The big question I would raise is if its possible for ArenaNet to develop a system that can accurately determine a player’s contribution? Another serious matter to address is what constitutes as event contribution? Outside of events that require you to find Objects ‘A’ and return them to NPC ‘B’ – There is really only one thing. Damage.

Damage.
Not rezzing downed or dead players.
Not staying alive.
Not supporting your allies.
Not control.

Well, this perception is the flip side of eliminating the trinity. Players think that DPS is all that matters because everyone can self-heal and/or mitigate incoming damage. The reality is that encounters, even in Guild Wars 2, go smoother with a combination of these, not just with damage. In a perfect group in which everyone knows the mechanics backwards and forwards, then going all out on damage will make encounters a little bit faster. In a typical group, however, taking two seconds to help your teammate get back while they’re still able to rally makes the encounter as a whole faster than it would have been if you just let them die and made them run back.

Azhure.1857:

It is why many players favor Berserker, and similar stat combos, so heavily. Before the Zerkers in this thread snap at me — I agree that the stat combo is fine and that skilled players can and do use it effectively. But lets be honest here… There are a LOT of players out there that are not learning to do better. At present they don’t have to and apparently by threads such as this it is taboo to even consider that they should.

Guild Wars has always targeted the more casual player. This is nothing new. I, for one, am very happy with that system. After Eye of the North I switched over to WoW for a few years. I endured years of high end raiding where everyone had to gear up and perform to their utmost in order to simply get a shot at loot. I can’t say that I was particularly happy about being penalized because that really nice guy who reliably shows up to every raid just happens to be suffering from arthritis. Still, I would much rather bring him along than the really competent jerk who ragequits at the slightest provocation and constantly whines about gear distribution. The fact that I never have to deal with crap like that in this game more than compensates for having downed players “leeching” off everyone’s collective effort.

chemiclord.3978:

Yeah, it really doesn’t matter if a WP is close by, I’ve noticed. Players will lay there dead and ask for a res if there’s an ongoing event.

My only issue is how people actually pause and let you go to defeated instead of helping when you are just down. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen and experienced this. Rezing someone from defeated takes way longer than if they are just down.

As for me, I’ll wait a bit to see if a rez is possible but if people are dropping all around me I don’t want their deaths on my conscious. So I just waypoint and run back. Simple world boss rules in effect in my opinion.

Peace.

chemiclord.3978:

Yeah, it really doesn’t matter if a WP is close by, I’ve noticed. Players will lay there dead and ask for a res if there’s an ongoing event.

My only issue is how people actually pause and let you go to defeated instead of helping when you are just down. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen and experienced this. Rezing someone from defeated takes way longer than if they are just down.

As for me, I’ll wait a bit to see if a rez is possible but if people are dropping all around me I don’t want their deaths on my conscious. So I just waypoint and run back. Simple world boss rules in effect in my opinion.

Peace.

Castrin.8972:

chemiclord.3978:

Yeah, it really doesn’t matter if a WP is close by, I’ve noticed. Players will lay there dead and ask for a res if there’s an ongoing event.

My only issue is how people actually pause and let you go to defeated instead of helping when you are just down. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen and experienced this. Rezing someone from defeated takes way longer than if they are just down.

As for me, I’ll wait a bit to see if a rez is possible but if people are dropping all around me I don’t want their deaths on my conscious. So I just waypoint and run back. Simple world boss rules in effect in my opinion.

Peace.

if the run is less than 30s I waypoint and immediately run back because I think I can still catch the event and be there when it finishes.

But if anet keeps doing these zones with limited/contested waypoints that require longer runs? I’d almost rather hope for a res since it’ll take longer to run back and probably miss the event.

Devildoc.6721:

Castrin.8972:

chemiclord.3978:

Yeah, it really doesn’t matter if a WP is close by, I’ve noticed. Players will lay there dead and ask for a res if there’s an ongoing event.

My only issue is how people actually pause and let you go to defeated instead of helping when you are just down. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen and experienced this. Rezing someone from defeated takes way longer than if they are just down.

As for me, I’ll wait a bit to see if a rez is possible but if people are dropping all around me I don’t want their deaths on my conscious. So I just waypoint and run back. Simple world boss rules in effect in my opinion.

Peace.

if the run is less than 30s I waypoint and immediately run back because I think I can still catch the event and be there when it finishes.

But if anet keeps doing these zones with limited/contested waypoints that require longer runs? I’d almost rather hope for a res since it’ll take longer to run back and probably miss the event.

+1!!!!! forced longer runs because of limited/closed WP only enhances the problem.
Just poor design/game play decisions.
Number 2—- give laurels ( or something signficant for a set number of res’. And not some stupidly high number to restrict success, (a common anet practice btw)).

Blude.6812:

Devildoc.6721:

Castrin.8972:

chemiclord.3978:

Yeah, it really doesn’t matter if a WP is close by, I’ve noticed. Players will lay there dead and ask for a res if there’s an ongoing event.

My only issue is how people actually pause and let you go to defeated instead of helping when you are just down. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen and experienced this. Rezing someone from defeated takes way longer than if they are just down.

As for me, I’ll wait a bit to see if a rez is possible but if people are dropping all around me I don’t want their deaths on my conscious. So I just waypoint and run back. Simple world boss rules in effect in my opinion.

Peace.

if the run is less than 30s I waypoint and immediately run back because I think I can still catch the event and be there when it finishes.

But if anet keeps doing these zones with limited/contested waypoints that require longer runs? I’d almost rather hope for a res since it’ll take longer to run back and probably miss the event.

+1!!!!! forced longer runs because of limited/closed WP only enhances the problem.
Just poor design/game play decisions.
Number 2—- give laurels ( or something signficant for a set number of res’. And not some stupidly high number to restrict success, (a common anet practice btw)).

Dying in the first place is not “poor” though? * sigh *

The laurel idea is interesting though it kinda contributes to Daily Laurels from time to time already. Any more and we could see “death farmers”. I would not like that one bit.

The re-spawn system is in need of an overhaul. There are far too many things that are trivial/nonconsistant/or unbalanced.

As for the main topic I believe the big issue here is that anyone dead on the ground thinks someone will eventually come around and resurrect them and would rather wait for this than re-spawning and running back from start. I know many times in WvW, silver wastes and some high scaled events. I had to think twice before respawning.

The issue is to make a system that still has the penalty of death while giving the player a definite “You will be resurrected”/“Respawn at waypoint”.

There are a few thoughts that come up.
1)Resurrection NPCs(Medics)
NPCs that use support abilities and will prioritize resurrecting downed players. These NPCs would be stationed in critical areas where players would die helping with the event.

2)PermaDeath
Basically set it so if a player is under the red level of the downed penalty, if that player goes down under it they cannot be resurrected and MUST respawn at a waypoint. This would put more value on staying alive if you are often going down. I would suggest setting rally to 3 second inviability, to make repeat downs less likely.

3)Make resurrection easier.
Set Healing power to increase your resurrection speed. Make new utilities that can resurrect allies at a slower rate or some other cost. (Light of Dwayna?)

4)punish berserking/reward defense
Alot of issues come from the fact that glass cannons are a meta. Setting up an effect that deals more damage to players without toughness or vitality. Making stats scaled so more pts mean less effectiveness(can of worms warning on this one). Essentially just make berserking possible but only if the player can dodge nearly every attack.

Seera.5916:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

So those not wanting to do the event by want to use a nearby waypoint that’s not within the event radius should be punished?

If those same people got killed in the event somehow, then I suppose so. If those people are just passing by, what’s stopping them from running away, getting to safety and out of combat and then WPing somewhere they want to be?

You did not read what I posted correctly.

Person on Map B wants to go to WP 1 on Map A. However, WP 1 on Map A is near an event, but not near enough that it would be contested due to the event. Should THEY be punished and not be able to go to WP 1 because there’s an event nearby?

Because WP’s that are already pretty much on top of any event are already locked out to both participants and non-participants of events.

Your suggestion will just make things worse.

If the WP isn’t contested and you aren’t dead or in combat, then how does that pertain to what is being suggested?

If you are dead and you happen to be in that event, the options should encourage others to rez you.

And it takes an INCREDIBLY long time to rez someone who is fully down. Meaning it takes another person out of the fight.

It’s much better to just let the person WP to a nearby WP so that they can actually actively participate again. Open world isn’t dungeons. They do not need to be treated equally because they are two different things.

WP zerging isn’t a problem in the open world. You’re making a solution to a non-existent problem.

Speccing into healing power, even a little bit decreases this time immensely, but that’s not what the ‘meta’ says spec for. The meta needs to adjust. Someday, it might.