Guild Wars 2

Saying WoW is popular because it’s a good game or it has depth is like saying McDonalds is fine dining because it’s so successful.

I think for the majority of players play WoW because there just isn’t anything better out there for them.
If I could choose between eating Mcdonalds or The Cheesecake factory, where Mcdonalds is more expensive, I would choose The Cheesecake factory. At the same time, I would be willing to pay more for The Cheesecake factory than I would pay for Mcdonalds. In short, I wouldn’t be willing to pay more for crappy food if there was much better food for cheaper(no monthly sub-B2P etc), yet people still keep playing WoW.
Mcdonalds is popular because it’s cheap, not because it is good. Cheesecake factory is popular because it’s good, not because it’s cheap.
Maybe WoW is just really the best for the majority?
This isn’t me, but mmo players in general.
I know it isn’t this simple and there are countless other things to consider. Not even sure this makes sense, it made sense in my head before I started writing it.
Gave me a headache trying to read back to myself hehe.

JSmooth.7654:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

If they knew the manifesto video was the subject of mass misinterpretation, they should have redone it to be more clear. Or taken it down. Anything short of that would be, at best, irresponsible. And at worst, intentionally misleading.

This is the Internet. Once something is posted; that kitten never goes away

Do you think people would do that? Just get on the internet and lie?

Fernling.1729:

Saying WoW is popular because it’s a good game or it has depth is like saying McDonalds is fine dining because it’s so successful.

I think for the majority of players play WoW because there just isn’t anything better out there for them.
If I could choose between eating Mcdonalds or The Cheesecake factory, where Mcdonalds is more expensive, I would choose The Cheesecake factory. At the same time, I would be willing to pay more for The Cheesecake factory than I would pay for Mcdonalds. In short, I wouldn’t be willing to pay more for crappy food if there was much better food for cheaper(no monthly sub-B2P etc), yet people still keep playing WoW.
Mcdonalds is popular because it’s cheap, not because it is good. Cheesecake factory is popular because it’s good, not because it’s cheap.
Maybe WoW is just really the best for the majority?
This isn’t me, but mmo players in general.
I know it isn’t this simple and there are countless other things to consider. Not even sure this makes sense, it made sense in my head before I started writing it.
Gave me a headache trying to read back to myself hehe.

McDonalds isn’t the cheapest best food either. But it has lots of money to advertise. Never underestimate the effect of advertising.

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Saying WoW is popular because it’s a good game or it has depth is like saying McDonalds is fine dining because it’s so successful.

I think for the majority of players play WoW because there just isn’t anything better out there for them.
If I could choose between eating Mcdonalds or The Cheesecake factory, where Mcdonalds is more expensive, I would choose The Cheesecake factory. At the same time, I would be willing to pay more for The Cheesecake factory than I would pay for Mcdonalds. In short, I wouldn’t be willing to pay more for crappy food if there was much better food for cheaper(no monthly sub-B2P etc), yet people still keep playing WoW.
Mcdonalds is popular because it’s cheap, not because it is good. Cheesecake factory is popular because it’s good, not because it’s cheap.
Maybe WoW is just really the best for the majority?
This isn’t me, but mmo players in general.
I know it isn’t this simple and there are countless other things to consider. Not even sure this makes sense, it made sense in my head before I started writing it.
Gave me a headache trying to read back to myself hehe.

McDonalds isn’t the cheapest best food either. But it has lots of money to advertise. Never underestimate the effect of advertising.

I could see that. There is this little mexican fast food place here in my little town that is 10x better than tacobell, yet tacobell is always getting 10x the amount of business.
It seems that ncsoft/anet would put a hefty amount of work into advertising if they would be rewarded with a larger playerbase. Maybe, they figured it wouldn’t be worth the cost, idk.

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Saying WoW is popular because it’s a good game or it has depth is like saying McDonalds is fine dining because it’s so successful.

I think for the majority of players play WoW because there just isn’t anything better out there for them.
If I could choose between eating Mcdonalds or The Cheesecake factory, where Mcdonalds is more expensive, I would choose The Cheesecake factory. At the same time, I would be willing to pay more for The Cheesecake factory than I would pay for Mcdonalds. In short, I wouldn’t be willing to pay more for crappy food if there was much better food for cheaper(no monthly sub-B2P etc), yet people still keep playing WoW.
Mcdonalds is popular because it’s cheap, not because it is good. Cheesecake factory is popular because it’s good, not because it’s cheap.
Maybe WoW is just really the best for the majority?
This isn’t me, but mmo players in general.
I know it isn’t this simple and there are countless other things to consider. Not even sure this makes sense, it made sense in my head before I started writing it.
Gave me a headache trying to read back to myself hehe.

McDonalds isn’t the cheapest best food either. But it has lots of money to advertise. Never underestimate the effect of advertising.

I could see that. There is this little mexican fast food place here in my little town that is 10x better than tacobell, yet tacobell is always getting 10x the amount of business.
It seems that ncsoft/anet would put a hefty amount of work into advertising if they would be rewarded with a larger playerbase. Maybe, they figured it wouldn’t be worth the cost, idk.

Advertising is massively expensive. They’re competing with WoW who uses Chuck Norris and William Shatner in their commercials. It’s a very hard act to follow and sustaining it costs even more money.

I don’t understand why GW2 is ‘stuck’ on 3 million sales?

A lot of people agree what a good game it is (everyone has there personal issues but overall very good), it tends to get a overall positive vibe across the net AFAIK.

Yet, it sold 2 million initially…3 million by xmas…then kinda stalled…

I know Blizzard are ALOT bigger than Anet but compare that to Diablo 3 for example, D3 got huge, massive amounts of critism, very, very negative internet profile. Yet sold 12 to 14 million initially and is now up to 20 million+…

When you compare official forums D3 is ’dead’ish’ compared with GW2 which is very, very active…

Its weird…why doesn’t GW2 sell a lot more? Is it really just down to the power of advertising?

Meglobob.8620:

I don’t understand why GW2 is ‘stuck’ on 3 million sales?

A lot of people agree what a good game it is (everyone has there personal issues but overall very good), it tends to get a overall positive vibe across the net AFAIK.

Yet, it sold 2 million initially…3 million by xmas…then kinda stalled…

I know Blizzard are ALOT bigger than Anet but compare that to Diablo 3 for example, D3 got huge, massive amounts of critism, very, very negative internet profile. Yet sold 12 to 14 million initially and is now up to 20 million+…

When you compare official forums D3 is ’dead’ish’ compared with GW2 which is very, very active…

Its weird…why doesn’t GW2 sell a lot more? Is it really just down to the power of advertising?

It’s not just down to the power of advertising. There are a lot of factors. For one thing it’s an MMO. That alone means it sells less.

Compare it to sales of SWToR which had a big advertising budget. MMOs doesn’t sell a huge amount. How many copies did the new WoW expansion sell? Not ten million copies surely.

But again, WoW can continually advertise and Guild Wars 2 can not. But MMOs are, and have always been, relatively niche.

For example, more gamers play consoles than computers and most MMOs are only available on computer. It will be very interesting to see how ESO does because it’s launching on the new consoles.

The thing is, Guild Wars 2 is likely closing in on four million copies, but you’d expect growth to be slow, because most games sell most copies in their entire life span within 3 months of launch. I know this from working in the industry. Very few games continue to sell through the three month mark.

This is why most MMOs tend to come out with expansions when interest lags. It means more boxed sales (but it’s mostly usually the same people that bought the original game.

Guild Wars 2 is apparently doing well enough to not worry about an expansion at this point, which is pretty good.

Vayne.8563:

Meglobob.8620:

I don’t understand why GW2 is ‘stuck’ on 3 million sales?

A lot of people agree what a good game it is (everyone has there personal issues but overall very good), it tends to get a overall positive vibe across the net AFAIK.

Yet, it sold 2 million initially…3 million by xmas…then kinda stalled…

I know Blizzard are ALOT bigger than Anet but compare that to Diablo 3 for example, D3 got huge, massive amounts of critism, very, very negative internet profile. Yet sold 12 to 14 million initially and is now up to 20 million+…

When you compare official forums D3 is ’dead’ish’ compared with GW2 which is very, very active…

Its weird…why doesn’t GW2 sell a lot more? Is it really just down to the power of advertising?

It’s not just down to the power of advertising. There are a lot of factors. For one thing it’s an MMO. That alone means it sells less.

Compare it to sales of SWToR which had a big advertising budget. MMOs doesn’t sell a huge amount. How many copies did the new WoW expansion sell? Not ten million copies surely.

But again, WoW can continually advertise and Guild Wars 2 can not. But MMOs are, and have always been, relatively niche.

For example, more gamers play consoles than computers and most MMOs are only available on computer. It will be very interesting to see how ESO does because it’s launching on the new consoles.

The thing is, Guild Wars 2 is likely closing in on four million copies, but you’d expect growth to be slow, because most games sell most copies in their entire life span within 3 months of launch. I know this from working in the industry. Very few games continue to sell through the three month mark.

This is why most MMOs tend to come out with expansions when interest lags. It means more boxed sales (but it’s mostly usually the same people that bought the original game.

Guild Wars 2 is apparently doing well enough to not worry about an expansion at this point, which is pretty good.

Also, correct me if my memory is faulty on this matter, but isn’t GW2 still unreleased in Asia ?

Nurvus.2891:

I really like alot of things about Guild Wars 2.
I believe it managed to successfully stand out amidst the concept of MMO.
I particularly like the style of the world, art and UI.
I like the semi-targetless system and dodge.

Still, alot of it feels unpolished, but I won’t get into details here.
Instead, I want to voice my concerns on ANet’s current design philosophy, comparing to their claims in the Guild Wars 2 Manifesto Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E

Everything ANet said in the Manifesto was spot on what I wanted to see in an MMO, but they seem to have gone the opposite direction on some of it.
a) “Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1, and puts it into a persistent world.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E#t=0m48s
I greatly disagree here. Apart from the world, Lore and nomenclature of game systems, most of GW1 is gone.
GW1 was greatly renowned for its extreme customizability.
You could effectively build your equipment exactly the way you wanted; you could play around with builds anytime; there was no gear treadmill and no one missed it.
There was very little randomness in combat.
There was no trash loot – everything was either useful for crafting, or for collectors.
Your superiority over someone else was mostly defined by your skill and strategy, not gear.
GW2 threw away alot of great, solid concepts from GW1 to – apparently – meet halfway with popular MMO standards.

b) “In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks – occasionally – that you need to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, hey, I swung it again, that’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E#t=1m26s
Isn’t that exactly what we do when we get to max level?
We repeat the same content endlessly for the sake of obtaining certain items.
In fact, isn’t the Magic Find stat proof that you intend players to grind?

c) “As a structure, the MMO has lost its ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you’re doing, the boss you just killed respawns 10 minutes later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E#t=1m46s
Isn’t this precicely what happens throughout the whole game?
The same enemy, boss or event repeating every 5-20 minutes?
The process of retaking or defending a point should take longer, last longer and be alot more worthwhile.

Furthermore, the personal story makes you feel like something of a hero for a little while, but in the end the true Hero is Trehearne.
He’s the one who does everything worth mentioning, and then just tells you “he couldn’t have done it without you.”
I didn’t feel like a hero at all in the last half of the personal story.
—-

I think the game has a great potential and I hope ANet keeps up at full steam.

so basicly you don’t understand why someone would lie to make money

Ashen.2907:

Also, correct me if my memory is faulty on this matter, but isn’t GW2 still unreleased in Asia ?

Yes, and Anet stated recently in the livestream that they are actively working on realeasing GW2 in Asia

GW2 is “stuck” at 3 million because no game will ever achieve WoW’s ridiculous numbers again. I won’t say those numbers were a fluke, because they weren’t… rather, they were a product of the times. I played from the first day of WoW, and I can tell you that back then the pickings were slim for MMOs. You had Anarchy Online, Everquest (which was getting up there in age), Ultima (which had nothing to do with the themepark style of gameplay), EVE (which no one gave 2 craps about back then and for good reason. It didn’t come into its own until many years later), and a few others.

The end result of a massive advertising campaign + limited competition + a famous company? Well, you see what that result is.

Today is different. VERY different. MMOs no longer have regular 10 year lifespans. MMOs no longer have limited competition. Every 3-4 months another AAA MMO releases, with dozens of “meh” MMOs alongside it. With that being taken into account- 3 million players is really good for the time.

WoW was a monster that will never be recreated, even by Blizzard. That success was as much a product of the time as it was the game itself.

Meglobob.8620:

Its weird…why doesn’t GW2 sell a lot more? Is it really just down to the power of advertising?

Because the game failed at one of its stated goals.

If you take a look at MMORPGs, you will notice a few things:

• They are all bad games. That’s why they are filled with “kill ten rats” quests, bad stories, massive level grind followed by massive raid-based grind, and so on. The goal in those games is not to have fun – it’s to be an addictive time sink.

• Not everyone will fall for that. Whenever someone asks for good content, the answer often is “if you want a good story go play a single player game”, “if you don’t want grind go play a single player game”, and so on. Guess what – people did. This reduced the audience of MMOs to addicts who love grind, usually calling it “dedication”, “effort” or anything similar to hide how they have been fooled by MMORPG developers into believing those endless time sinks are actually good content.

• You can see the effects of this limited playerbase in all other big MMOs. There is a huge locust cloud of MMO addicts, most of which began playing MMORPGs with WoW, who keep jumping from MMO to MMO hoping they will find a clone of their first online world (whether they realize it or not). They join a new MMO, giving it inflated sale numbers at the beginning (usually between 1.5 and 2 millions), only to leave a few months later after realizing that no MMO is a better WoW than, well, WoW. This makes the developers panic as they lose most of their players, and so they begin catering to this demographic, rushing to introduce more WoW like features in the game. However, this only alienates the players who were actually seeking something different from WoW, while the locust players continue to leave anyway. This is usually when the game goes free to play.

One of ArenaNet’s goals, as seen in their Manifesto, was to make a MMO for those who don’t like MMOs – in other words, make a game for people who want to have fun as opposed to giant time sinks disguised as content.

They failed. The Guild Wars 2 community is made by farmers, grinders, addicts and exploiters in their ninth MMORPG. Pay attention to how much criticism is asking for more rewards, as opposed to more fun content. This means the audience of GW2 is still the same audience of all other MMOs, with the same sale spike at around 2 million players and the same massive loss of players a few months later, “coincidently” when ArenaNet introduced Ascended gear and Fractals of the Mist.

Ultimately, I think those looking for fun, great games with great stories and meaningful experiences have given up on MMORPGs. This is why GW2 isn’t selling more.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Raine.1394:

I see the definition of grind is up for grabs again.

Oh, yeah. But then, it always is in every MMO. Grind is a subjective term that also has a generally understood meaning. It’s the subjective part that everyone disagrees on. Fanboys will always claim their fave game has no grind and disgruntled players usually have it as a major complaint. Even when the context usage is clear, there will be differences of opinion because that subjective sense is always there. The ability to be truly, completely objective is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Everyone has perceptions and biases that are always in play whether or not this is consciously realized.

I dont think this is a question of fanboys at all, in a way its logical. Grind means repeating a boring task you dont enjoy. If the game you’re playing presented you with that would it be your favorite game? cause I am sure it wouldnt be mine. Hence its a given that if you really love a game you will never find it grindy even if it has repetitive tasks cause you’re enjoying yourself while playing.

It also depends on how you play the game. Taking Gw2 as an example. If you’re going for a named exotic that requires 250 ectos you can either farm endlessly cotent with a high drop rate or that gives you ton of goal say FotM and COE p1 or you could also play whatever you like and salvage what rares you get and by the rest with the gold you make. If you go the first root and hate every second of it once again this will never be your favorite game. If you go the first root and enjoy every minute of it, it will not feel grindy and this can still be your favorite game.

What I mean to say is if you really love the game it means you find hte game pleasurable hence it can never feel grindy to you cause you’re enjoying yourself.

Erasculio.2914:

Because the game failed at one of its stated goals.

If you take a look at MMORPGs, you will notice a few things:

I disagree, what ArenaNet did was take a page out of the sandbox game manual and did what they said they’d do in the manifesto, play the way you want.

If the game is filled with “farmers, grinders, addicts and exploiters” its because thats what those people chose to do.

The problem is it turns out people are impatient and greedy. If you put a goal in front of them no matter how many times you tell them this is a long term goal that should take a year+ to achieve they’re going to try finish it by yesterday. Is that the game’s fault? I dont think so, there is nothing the game itself can do about that, the only way to ensure people dont farm / grind etc.. is to give them nothing to work towards and then you’ll fail because people will complain there is no reason to play your game.

What gw2 does and I believe it is the right way to go about it, is leave players free to pursuit their goal anyway they want. You want a legendary… great here is the game play any content you want and you’ll be making progress towards your legendary. You want to craft this named exotic that takes lot of mats to craft… no problem once again play anything you like and you’ll be making progress towards that goal. But and this is a huge but you must be willing to let the process take its time. The problem is most players look at this named exotic and go OMG this takes 250 ecto. I need 50g for that so I am going to farm this content for days to get those 250 ectos and build that named exotic within a week. Thing is that was supposed to take months to build not days. If you decided to do a bunch of fractals to get it done in a fraction of the time its not the game that forced you to grind, the game let you free to do what you want.

That’s how Gw2 distinguishes itself from other MMOs. In other games you want this particular epic weapon you have no choice but to repeat this raid until it drops, because of lockouts, loot distribution and drop rate it can take months, You also will probably need it to progress for the next type of content. Gw2 still has stuff that can take months to get but you can go about it anyway you want rather then through specific content. Further more its entirely optional, there is the same powered version that’s pretty easy to get. If you don’t want to put in even the little effort a regular exotic requires you can even go with the lowest tier gear as it is enough to get through the entire game.

But lets not blame the game because a group of players would rather bore themselves to tears grinding the same content to get what they want in a week rather then enjoy the game for a couple of months and get whatever reward they’re after in the frame its meant to be had.

As for sales like other said they’re probably somewhere along the line of 3 – 4 million sales by now probably closer to 4m then 3m. Not sure why any one feels thats a bad number. Like others pointed out they havent even launched in the biggest MMO market yet which is Asia. If we look at WoW the Asian population has consistantly been larger then US and EU combined. Once they launch there they could easily add another 3m-4m box sales getting the total to 6m-8m copies sold in a year (provided they launch right about now). Not sure that can be considered a failure in any universe. To be honest 3m copies sold in a year is still great, that puts it 2nd only to WoW as far as I can tell.

Galen Grey.4709:

The problem is it turns out people are impatient and greedy. If you put a goal in front of them no matter how many times you tell them this is a long term goal that should take a year+ to achieve they’re going to try finish it by yesterday. Is that the game’s fault? I dont think so, there is nothing the game itself can do about that, the only way to ensure people dont farm / grind etc.. is to give them nothing to work towards and then you’ll fail because people will complain there is no reason to play your game.

You are proving my point by making a long post all about rewards.

Let’s add some perspective here: why did people play Final Fantasy VI? To get rewards? No, that didn’t mean anything in the game (and there wasn’t even that big a reward there). Why did people play Planescape: Torment? Rewards? No, there isn’t any reward there. Half Life? Same thing.

People play those games because they are fun.

“Those are all single player games, so you can’t compare!” – read my previous post. The idea that MMORPGs don’t have to be good games is exactly why they are so niche, and so similar to each other.

If Guild Wars 2 had no reward – if it were like recent single player RPGs, with skins and maxed items very easily available – how many people from the current community would be playing it? IMO, next to none. Try to guess why it is, then, that those games sell more than Guild Wars.

GW2 is not the best parts of GW1 and GW2 is completely a grind, yes everything is optional, to the point of grind or leave the game, great options…

Isn’t it kind of obvious, at least to the GW fans, that something changed at ArenaNet between the publication of the Manifesto in 2010 and release of GW2 in 2012?

It’s not the same company at all. I think they’re trying to weasel word as much as possible so nobody can technically ‘prove’ that the Manifesto and the game don’t match. But weasel words or no, Guild Wars 2 is NOT in the spirit of that manifesto.

Something has changed at ArenaNet, and not for the better if you’re a gamer and a fan.

Chuo.4238:

Isn’t it kind of obvious, at least to the GW fans, that something changed at ArenaNet between the publication of the Manifesto in 2010 and release of GW2 in 2012?

It’s not the same company at all. I think they’re trying to weasel word as much as possible so nobody can technically ‘prove’ that the Manifesto and the game don’t match. But weasel words or no, Guild Wars 2 is NOT in the spirit of that manifesto.

Something has changed at ArenaNet, and not for the better if you’re a gamer and a fan.

Or maybe it was too ambitious for them.
Or maybe they consciously lied.
The result is the same, though. GW2 is not the game we were told it would be.

sorry, but the single player console game cannot really being compared to an mmo, despite the fact that you still do and fail in the comparison…
the single player games, have story and no grind, once you finished next year the same producer will release the same franchise, sometimes it will be a success, sometimes a crap, but there you are, they do that for a living, they give you crunch to munch every year.

an mmo is meant to last in time, is not meant to have a release every year, is meant to keep player playing. so if the reward system was similar to a single player game, once you finished that’s it. you have nothing else to do.
the mmo so give you long term goals, achievement and add content over time to give you something to do.
if you want be so blind to deny this because you have at all cost prove that mmo are kitten and single player are good, i really don’t understand the point in doing so.
what are you accomplishing? even if you are right than what? we all stop playing (and there are people like me and many others that still enjoy this kind of game and don’t feel the grind her i felt in other games) and go for single player game because doing so will make you happy?

you are offering only complaints and pointless comparisons, no solution to a problem you perceive. so what’s the point?? and what’s the point for us to try to make you understand anything in the first place. you are not here to change your mind or seek advice or seeing other point of view, i don’t know why you are here at all actually, but that’s probably me being tired of blind stubborness.

edit: on a side note final fantasy is at chapter xiv, and every single player they made was one worst than the other, despite rewards and what so ever the story didn’t count player actions, the character were pre made, and there was a title final fantasy xii that at some point didn’t even need you to play at all, you had only to move their main toon around and press x to advance in dialogs.
the characters would fight on their own!
the story were always a big save the princess/help the princess/beat your nemesis and get the princess all covered by wonderful graphics and pointless digressions.
go to point a to b was an endless grind of mobs that spawned random making exploring an area the most tedious thing in the game…
at least in a even crappy mmo i can decide who the character i create is and the story… well unless george martin write one, i guess will never see a change in the classic, good against evil… even the lord of the ring story was that naive.

Amadan.9451:

an mmo is meant to last in time, is not meant to have a release every year, is meant to keep player playing. so if the reward system was similar to a single player game, once you finished that’s it. you have nothing else to do.

So you think MMORPGs need grind in order to give players something to do?

Chuo.4238:

Isn’t it kind of obvious, at least to the GW fans, that something changed at ArenaNet between the publication of the Manifesto in 2010 and release of GW2 in 2012?

It’s not the same company at all. I think they’re trying to weasel word as much as possible so nobody can technically ‘prove’ that the Manifesto and the game don’t match. But weasel words or no, Guild Wars 2 is NOT in the spirit of that manifesto.

Something has changed at ArenaNet, and not for the better if you’re a gamer and a fan.

Sorry but I disagree. I think Guild Wars 2 is very much in the spirit of the manifesto. The only thing that has changed is that Anet learned that a huge percentage of players won’t play for just cosmetics. Aside from that, Guild Wars 2 is pretty much what it was supposed to be.

when people say the game is not what they were told to be, i want know exactly what did they want and how…
if you are so sure the game is not what you were expecting (and in most case it was all about your personal expectations), what is it that you want? should be easy to know!

Vayne.8563:

Sorry but I disagree. I think Guild Wars 2 is very much in the spirit of the manifesto.

That is a massive surprise.

Vayne.8563:

The only thing that has changed is that Anet learned that a huge percentage of players won’t play for just cosmetics.

Or that ArenaNet has failed to cater to the players who would play just for cosmetics. The original Guild Wars is proof that those players exist and were enough to buy more than six million copies of the Guild Wars chapters.

Amadan.9451:

if you are so sure the game is not what you were expecting (and in most case it was all about your personal expectations), what is it that you want? should be easy to know!

A game about having fun, not about rewards.

Erasculio.2914:

Amadan.9451:

an mmo is meant to last in time, is not meant to have a release every year, is meant to keep player playing. so if the reward system was similar to a single player game, once you finished that’s it. you have nothing else to do.

So you think MMORPGs need grind in order to give players something to do?

i don’t know what they need, since i am no dev, nor programmer nor marketing specialist, nor psycologist or whatever.
what i mean to say if you don’t have to find 250 ecto for a skin you are not forced to use, what is it that this game should give you to do?
you never mention it, because you don’t even know!
at least i admit it.
fortunatelly gw2 give us easily what we need to play the entire game, other than that everything can get time to have it, but you are not in need of everything to be on par with everyone else.
so maybe gw2 team did accomplish something different from other mmo producers…
but if you don’t agree, what can i say? it’s your problem and not mine!!

also, i have ilya and a legendary and i never felt the grind, because i didn’t repeat the same content over and over to get what i needed.
only the lack of luck when it came to precursor…
oh for my legendary it took 750 pile of crystalline dust and i didn’t even know of union waypoint back than and there was no pile of crystalline dust salvaging from ectos

i’m hving fun here, so yeah mission accomplished.

edit: but apparently fun is something subjective

Amadan.9451:

what i mean to say if you don’t have to find 250 ecto for a skin you are not forced to use, what is it that this game should give you to do?

Fun content instead of grind. If you were having fun when gathering those 250 ectos, having fun would be a reward in itself and the ectos wouldn’t matter to keep you playing. Let’s face the truth: those things requiring 250 ectos are there to make people grind in order to give them a reason to keep playing when they are not having fun anymore. To say otherwise is naive, to say the least.

Amadan.9451:

you never mention it, because you don’t even know!

Of course I do. I’m simply amused to see how often other people cannot understand that giving just grind is not the only – or the best – way to make a MMO.

Amadan.9451:

fortunatelly gw2 give us easily what we need to play the entire game, other than that everything can get time to have it, but you are not in need of everything to be on par with everyone else

“Need” is irrelevant. You don’t "need’ to play the game, ergo claiming you would “need” anything in it is worthless. We are beyond that step in the hierarchy of needs.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry but I disagree. I think Guild Wars 2 is very much in the spirit of the manifesto.

That is a massive surprise.

Vayne.8563:

The only thing that has changed is that Anet learned that a huge percentage of players won’t play for just cosmetics.

Or that ArenaNet has failed to cater to the players who would play just for cosmetics. The original Guild Wars is proof that those players exist and were enough to buy more than six million copies of the Guild Wars chapters.

Amadan.9451:

if you are so sure the game is not what you were expecting (and in most case it was all about your personal expectations), what is it that you want? should be easy to know!

A game about having fun, not about rewards.

You keep using words like failed. But failed is often used objectively. It’s seldomly used subjectively.

Tests are pass/fail. Anet didn’t fail, so much as you don’t like what they’ve achieved, which is fair enough.

I’d love to have failed at creating something as much as they did.

They had to pull Guild Wars players into a NCSoft korean-style grind MMO, thus the lies.

but i’m having fun and never grind an ecto, i just had there while i play the content i liked.
i thought after crafting a legendary which is considered the ultimate end game of all, by a lot of people, i would somehow find the game less fun to play. but so far i was proven wrong, i’m still having fun, i still have something to do.
things i want to collect, or bosses i like to fight, achievement i want to fulfill but none of these feel like grindy to me.

you keep repeating a game about fun and not reward, but this is as meaningless as saying that is grindy.
it is still your problem, and unless you are here for an uprising with more than we want to have fun and no reward, there is no point at all in stating that for you they failed at creating this game!

Vayne.8563:

You keep using words like failed. But failed is often used objectively. It’s seldomly used subjectively.

Tests are pass/fail.

That’s the same kind of reasoning as in your “But that’s only YOUR opinion!” arguments. GW2 is not a test. Ergo, by your definition, it’s not a matter of objectively passing or failing. Ergo, it’s logical I’m using the subjective definition of failure. I don’t know if it’s because English isn’t my mother language, but interpretations like the above are extremely obvious to me, and having them pointed out feel somewhat empty.

Vayne.8563:

Anet didn’t fail, so much as you don’t like what they’ve achieved, which is fair enough.

Actually, if you want to talk in objective terms, you would have to ask in what ArenaNet would have succeeded or failed. We know one of their stated goals was to make a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs. Did they succeed in this? We don’t know (which, for the records, mean you don’t know either). IMO (if you need that to be said) no, they didn’t – again IMO, you see a community here with the same issues as seen in the community of other MMORPGs, with GW2 being modified to cater to the same demands as in those games.

Amadan.9451:

but i’m having fun and never grind an ecto, i just had there while i play the content i liked.

So the requirement for 250 ectos never made you play more than you would have played anyway, and thus your comment that the ecto grind (and similar grinds) is necessary to give people something to do was wrong – the requirement was irrelevant to you yet you kept playing anyway.

Ergo, grind is not necessary to keep people playing.

Ergo, GW2 does not need to have grind.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

You keep using words like failed. But failed is often used objectively. It’s seldomly used subjectively.

Tests are pass/fail.

That’s the same kind of reasoning as in your “But that’s only YOUR opinion!” arguments. GW2 is not a test. Ergo, by your definition, it’s not a matter of objectively passing or failing. Ergo, it’s logical I’m using the subjective definition of failure. I don’t know if it’s because English isn’t my mother language, but interpretations like the above are extremely obvious to me, and having them pointed out feel somewhat empty.

Vayne.8563:

Anet didn’t fail, so much as you don’t like what they’ve achieved, which is fair enough.

Actually, if you want to talk in objective terms, you would have to ask in what ArenaNet would have succeeded or failed. We know one of their stated goals was to make a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs. Did they succeed in this? We don’t know (which, for the records, mean you don’t know either). IMO (if you need that to be said) no, they didn’t – again IMO, you see a community here with the same issues as seen in the community of other MMORPGs, with GW2 being modified to cater to the same demands as in those games.

Amadan.9451:

but i’m having fun and never grind an ecto, i just had there while i play the content i liked.

So the requirement for 250 ectos never made you play more than you would have played anyway, and thus your comment that the ecto grind (and similar grinds) is necessary to give people something to do was wrong – the requirement was irrelevant to you yet you kept playing anyway.

Ergo, grind is not necessary to keep people playing.

Ergo, GW2 does not need to have grind.

Communication is all about nuance. The term failed, used mostly objectively, makes it hard to understand if someone is or isn’t using it objectively.

It’s just a choice of words I wouldn’t have chosen, because I think too many people will think you mean it objectively.

Erasculio.2914:

Galen Grey.4709:

The problem is it turns out people are impatient and greedy. If you put a goal in front of them no matter how many times you tell them this is a long term goal that should take a year+ to achieve they’re going to try finish it by yesterday. Is that the game’s fault? I dont think so, there is nothing the game itself can do about that, the only way to ensure people dont farm / grind etc.. is to give them nothing to work towards and then you’ll fail because people will complain there is no reason to play your game.

You are proving my point by making a long post all about rewards.

Let’s add some perspective here: why did people play Final Fantasy VI? To get rewards? No, that didn’t mean anything in the game (and there wasn’t even that big a reward there). Why did people play Planescape: Torment? Rewards? No, there isn’t any reward there. Half Life? Same thing.

People play those games because they are fun.

“Those are all single player games, so you can’t compare!” – read my previous post. The idea that MMORPGs don’t have to be good games is exactly why they are so niche, and so similar to each other.

If Guild Wars 2 had no reward – if it were like recent single player RPGs, with skins and maxed items very easily available – how many people from the current community would be playing it? IMO, next to none. Try to guess why it is, then, that those games sell more than Guild Wars.

yes they did ( I am assuming you’re talking about the single player final fantasy games here not the MMO which would be even worst) but a big part of the 7 and 8 at least which are the ones I played rewards were a big part of them. You had to build you character and progress them which involved getting new items and skills which are rewards for playing the game. Even the whole game is structured towards reward really. You play a part and at the end you’re rewarded with a cutscene. I played many games MMO or otherwise and they all give out rewards be it new equipment or new powers. (well except one example I can think of)

If like you said rewards played 0 part why did you have loot drops in Planescape torment. Why not start with one weapon and X amount of skills and thats all you get? Same thing with Half life. Thing is players like to get new shiny things.

In fact the only game which I am aware of that has no rewards at all is Dear Esther. Beautiful game and I loved it to bits but just check out what most people think about it. Hint quite a few people refuse to even recognize it as a game.

Skins are rewards as well. You can happily play the whole game using common grade gear, you dont need exotic and you certainly dont need ascended gear. Actually apart from a weapon you dont even need gear. I tried and succeeded in playing level 80 events wearing just 1 rare weapon. Feel free to try it out yourself. While Ascended gear is better then exotic gear its still entirely optional just like a skin.

Who says Gw2 sold less? Plenty of single player RPGs even really good single player RPGs sold much less in their life time then Gw2 did so far.

Example
Gothic 3 – 500k
risen 2 – 370k
witcher 2 – 1.7m
Original witcher – 2.3m

which recent single player RPGs have everything easy to get? Cause they all have hard to get stuff as far as I know.

Besides if what you want is just story whats stopping you from playing gw2 for that? You can experience all of it without worrying about equipement and has I would estimate about 400hrs of it. (different personal stories + dynamic events in all zones)

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry but I disagree. I think Guild Wars 2 is very much in the spirit of the manifesto.

That is a massive surprise.

Vayne.8563:

The only thing that has changed is that Anet learned that a huge percentage of players won’t play for just cosmetics.

Or that ArenaNet has failed to cater to the players who would play just for cosmetics. The original Guild Wars is proof that those players exist and were enough to buy more than six million copies of the Guild Wars chapters.

Amadan.9451:

if you are so sure the game is not what you were expecting (and in most case it was all about your personal expectations), what is it that you want? should be easy to know!

A game about having fun, not about rewards.

It shouldnt be, I agree with Vayne, to me the game very much lives up to the spirit of the manifesto as well.

I dont think arenanet failed to cater to the player who wants to play just for cosmetics at all. If you’re just interested in cosmetic items and dont want to bother with better gear, the cosmetic items are certainly there and even common grade gear is enough for every type of content in the game so that player can focus on his cosmetics and nothing else any time. What you want isnt that option what you want is for the game to force to play for cosmetics only without a possibility to play the game for better items. Doing that wouldnt provide what players who want cosmetics want (thats already there) it would deprive players of goals who dont care about cosmetics. Ergo what you’re suggesting would detract from the game not add to it. (Just in case you’re wondering I am one who doesnt care about power, got 0 ascended gear and not even a full set of exotics)

Thats up to you. Like I already pointed out even a set of commons is enough to enjoy the game so if you dont want the game to be about rewards just dont make it about the rewards, its a simple as that. I find it curious how you stress out that rewards shouldnt be important but seems you’re making them at the centre of your experience and are unable to ignore them yourself.

Erasculio.2914:

So the requirement for 250 ectos never made you play more than you would have played anyway, and thus your comment that the ecto grind (and similar grinds) is necessary to give people something to do was wrong – the requirement was irrelevant to you yet you kept playing anyway.

Ergo, grind is not necessary to keep people playing.

Ergo, GW2 does not need to have grind.

Its called a goal. People like to have goals, it gives them a sense of direction, it gives them a purpose and it gives them satisfaction once they achieve it. If you dont want to be driven by a goal you’re free to do so. The game is most certainly not forcing you to get a legendary, its entirely up to you.

What you seem to be having a problem with is to distinguish the difference between playing the game for the reward and getting the reward for playing the game. If it takes 3000 hours to get a legendary (random number of hours given) it doesnt mean you have to play the game your usual amount + 3000 hours it means you have to play the game 3000 hours. Legendary or not if I like the game I am going to eventually play 3000 hours, it could take 6 months it could take a year or it could take 5 years but at some point I will play those 3000 hours. Playing 3000 hours will give me things… gold, karma, mats, etc… My goal dictates what I do with them. If I am going after a legendary I will save them and at the end of my 3000 hours convert them into a status symbol which says look I am dedicated player. If I am not after a legendary I can use those resource to get other skins, support my server in WvW or whatever. I could also just do nothing if I choose to, let everything amass and then delete whatever I get when I run out of storage space, thats fine too but why would I want to throw away whatever I get? will that make the game more fun then if I save up and get a legendary? Dont think so.

People are still on an on about this – amazing.

Guild Wars 2 set out to be different from other MMOs.
It set out to be like Guild Wars 1 – not just in looks, but in most aspects of gameplay.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have – it didn’t NEED:
- gear treadmill
- lots of levels – the 20 levels were merely a tutorial. In Prophecies they weren’t, but quickly ANet went away with the slow paced leveling when introducing Factions, their most successful GW1 expansion.
- level requirement on gear and even content
- magic find
None of these are required in an MMO.
None of these were introduced to make Guild Wars 2 better.
They were introduced to try and lure specific kinds of players to the game.

What Guild Wars 1 gained from NOT having the above features, was 99% of the areas in Guild Wars 2 being areas worth going to, in order to obtain specific skins or skills from specific bosses.
The progression in Guild Wars 1 was all about acquiring new skills, and new skins – as well as experimenting with new builds.

There were all kinds of awesome challenges that people would tackle for the sake of the challenge itself.
The grinding barely felt like grinding, since you would often be trying new builds and interesting tactics to overcome daunting odds.

What changed for Guild Wars 2?
- They removed skill hunting – one of the most amazing features of Guild Wars 1.
- They added 60 unnecessary levels.
- They added unnecessary level requirements and tiers to gear – there were tiers in Guild Wars 1, but it only affected attribute requirements, making the item more easily available to builds that don’t invest in that attribute. Gear tiers in GW1 did not make the BASE item stronger – that’s something you see in games like WoW.
- They made boss fights all about telegraphed one-shots.

And you know what? In early development, GW2 was fairly close to what they promised.

However, somewhere along development, they started losing faith in their vision, and slowly began removing GW1 from GW2, and adding Diablo 3 and WoW instead.

I’ll be interested to see what happens down the road (i.e., once the LS teams have actually had three months time working up to “their” content patches). Right now, what we’re getting feels like “bread and circuses.” By this I mean: a few items in the form of skins, minis, etc. (the bread); and a mix of mini-games and busywork (the circus).

Whether the story has depth or interesting things going on it is a moot point. Our interaction with it is minimal. It’s as bad as WoW, which had great lore, but almost never gave the player the sense they actually mattered to what was going on.

The gameplay in GW2 is ultimately too simplified for me. There just aren’t enough skills, and there are a very small amount of stock conditions and boons compared to every other MMOG I’ve played.

Part of the fun of GW1 is in finding elite skills and skill trainers, but personally I don’t miss having to restart a mission completely because you didn’t pick that one perfect skill for whatever enemies are there.

ArenaNet just went too far in simplifying the gameplay in GW2. The highly detailed world and lore help to keep the game engaging, but ultimately, I ran out of those. Still, for a free to play MMOG, GW2 is quite good. Just don’t ever buy any actual gems, or you may never stop

The Personal Story is one of the clearest problems.

You’re supposed to be a Hero.
But what really happens, is that you’re constantly being babysitted by godlike NPCs.
They always do everything worth mentioning, but at the end of the story tell you how awesome you are and how they couldn’t have done it without you.

Towards the end of the story, it gets worse, with Trehearne being the clear “hero”, but still calling you a hero.
—-

Guild Wars 1 had depth in the gear and skill systems that Guild Wars 2 doesn’t.
To me, that’s unbelievable. How could they regress in something?

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Isn’t it kind of obvious, at least to the GW fans, that something changed at ArenaNet between the publication of the Manifesto in 2010 and release of GW2 in 2012?

It’s not the same company at all. I think they’re trying to weasel word as much as possible so nobody can technically ‘prove’ that the Manifesto and the game don’t match. But weasel words or no, Guild Wars 2 is NOT in the spirit of that manifesto.

Something has changed at ArenaNet, and not for the better if you’re a gamer and a fan.

Sorry but I disagree. I think Guild Wars 2 is very much in the spirit of the manifesto. The only thing that has changed is that Anet learned that a huge percentage of players won’t play for just cosmetics. Aside from that, Guild Wars 2 is pretty much what it was supposed to be.

Oh Vayne, come on man. You have to at least try to be critical at some point in your gaming experience. GW2 may have been what it was supposed to be…by the devs point of view, but from a lot of players’ points of view it wasn’t. There’s a substantial disconnect there that you have to be blind not to see. It’s only in the degree of disconnect that’s up for debate nowadays.

And it’s not our fault we didn’t “get it” either. It’s their job to convey future meaning and content through pre-release advertising, and to do so in a way that doesn’t leave you guessing. It’s on them to deliver it cleanly, not on us to interpret it correctly. You have to see that.

Erasculio.2914:

One of ArenaNet’s goals, as seen in their Manifesto, was to make a MMO for those who don’t like MMOs – in other words, make a game for people who want to have fun as opposed to giant time sinks disguised as content.

They failed. The Guild Wars 2 community is made by farmers, grinders, addicts and exploiters in their ninth MMORPG.

Moreover the content is now based around being a time sink for those type of players.

Galen Grey.4709:

I disagree, what ArenaNet did was take a page out of the sandbox game manual and did what they said they’d do in the manifesto, play the way you want.

I can’t play the game the way I want.

" Galen Grey.4709:

I disagree, what ArenaNet did was take a page out of the sandbox game manual and did what they said they’d do in the manifesto, play the way you want."

I would suggest, perhaps, you really don’t grasp the meaning of “Sandbox”. GW2 and “Sandbox game” should probably never be mentioned in the same sentence, unless you are pointing out that GW2 isn’t one.

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Isn’t it kind of obvious, at least to the GW fans, that something changed at ArenaNet between the publication of the Manifesto in 2010 and release of GW2 in 2012?

It’s not the same company at all. I think they’re trying to weasel word as much as possible so nobody can technically ‘prove’ that the Manifesto and the game don’t match. But weasel words or no, Guild Wars 2 is NOT in the spirit of that manifesto.

Something has changed at ArenaNet, and not for the better if you’re a gamer and a fan.

Sorry but I disagree. I think Guild Wars 2 is very much in the spirit of the manifesto. The only thing that has changed is that Anet learned that a huge percentage of players won’t play for just cosmetics. Aside from that, Guild Wars 2 is pretty much what it was supposed to be.

Oh Vayne, come on man. You have to at least try to be critical at some point in your gaming experience. GW2 may have been what it was supposed to be…by the devs point of view, but from a lot of players’ points of view it wasn’t. There’s a substantial disconnect there that you have to be blind not to see. It’s only in the degree of disconnect that’s up for debate nowadays.

And it’s not our fault we didn’t “get it” either. It’s their job to convey future meaning and content through pre-release advertising, and to do so in a way that doesn’t leave you guessing. It’s on them to deliver it cleanly, not on us to interpret it correctly. You have to see that.

I’m critical about many things in this game. You only need to look to find the threads on RNG in cash shop, or the fact that it’s harder to get into characters in this game than Guild Wars 1, or the fact that the way the dungeons tell the story of Destiny’s Edge was a bad decision.

But being critical of a game doesn’t mean I have to agree WITH YOU. I don’t see anything in the manifesto except for one line that isn’t true. Everything else is certainly true, particularly when you take into account what was said by Anet about the manifesto immediately after the manifesto launched.

People who want to bring up three year old videos to try to call the devs liars are simply wrong. There are things that HAVE changed, but I understand why they changed and while I’m not thrilled with all the changes, I can’t deny some of them were necessary.

Of course, there may have been other options, but since they weren’t implemented we’ll never know if they would have been better or worse.

Vayne.8563:

People who want to bring up three year old videos to try to call the devs liars are simply wrong.

Of all your arguments against the Manifesto, this has to be the worst of them (which is saying a lot). ArenaNet kept a lot of Guild Wars players interested in GW2 by telling us what the game would be. The fact they stated their plans 3 years ago (which is very little time, as far as game development goes) doesn’t mean they have carte blanche to completely ignore their statements now. If anything, the difference between the Manifesto and the little things that were changed but no one cares about is how the details can change, but the design philosophy – what ultimately is the core of the game – should not have changed, no matter how long ago said philosophy was stated. It did change. In many ways, ArenaNet managed to both break a promise and tell its players a lie with the Manifesto.

(And your third worst argument, for the records, is how GW2 would be as close as possible to the Manifesto with current technology. If ArenaNet stated they would do more than they could possibly do, it’s their fault for overstating their own abilities.)

Where’s my jet pack? Where’s my flying car?

Oh sorry, I thought this was the thread where we complain about what was promised us someday. Sure we don’t have nuclear reactors in our homes and Pan-Am isn’t flying rocket planes to a space station so we can get a connecting flight to the Moon. But there are practical (as well as social and political) reasons that didn’t pan out.

As for ArenaNet, they came reasonably close. They did away with 99% of the force party requirements, the tyrany of the triad and the mostly linear quest format found in most MMOs. It’s not a sandbox like EVE, where player driven/evolved content is as important as dev generated but it does provide a degree of freedom I didn’t find in other MMOs. And from that point of view I think the manifest came pretty close to the goals they stated.

Behellagh.1468:

Where’s my jet pack? Where’s my flying car?

Oh sorry, I thought this was the thread where we complain about what was promised someday in the future.

Who promised you a jet pack?

All the arguments (and there have been many) about the Manifesto are moot points. The real issue is that all of the publicity around the game generated expectations, many of which the game has not met.

Some of this is on the customers. Things change, developers have to adjust their plans based on what their customers want. They also have to respond to business demands. Investors don’t care if the game is well-received, they care about RoI. Customers have to expect that things will change. However, each customer is going to draw a different line in the sand beyond which they will think that the game they bought and the game it has become are nothing alike.

Some of it is on ANet. Their statements pre-launch were much less ambiguous than their statements post-launch. Maybe they feel the need to leave themselves wiggle room. However, if your customers are already questioning your veracity, resorting to spin and PR Speak is not going to reassure them.

Vayne seems to think the Manifesto is alive and well. I think that his take on what the Manifesto means is alive and well, and others’ takes are different. People can argue the meaning of words, but communication is not solely a function of words, it is a function of intent and it is a function of what the listener brings to the table. “If you hate MMO’s then you really want to check out GW2.” is going to mean different things to different people. Two people could have bought the game based on that one line. One might be disillusioned and unhappy with his purchase, the other might be happy.

Rather than discussing what was, it’s more important to look at what is.

Me? I’m ambivalent right now. Much of what drew me to the game is still here. However, the upcoming Ascended implementation has very much de-motivated me.

The Living Story has so far been uninspired. It’s mostly busywork and a few new skins tacked onto a story that might or might not be interesting except ANet has done nothing to involve me in it. However, I don’t believe we’ve seen LS content developed with a three month lead time. If we have, and this is all there is, then we might have a problem.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

People who want to bring up three year old videos to try to call the devs liars are simply wrong.

Of all your arguments against the Manifesto, this has to be the worst of them (which is saying a lot). ArenaNet kept a lot of Guild Wars players interested in GW2 by telling us what the game would be. The fact they stated their plans 3 years ago (which is very little time, as far as game development goes) doesn’t mean they have carte blanche to completely ignore their statements now. If anything, the difference between the Manifesto and the little things that were changed but no one cares about is how the details can change, but the design philosophy – what ultimately is the core of the game – should not have changed, no matter how long ago said philosophy was stated. It did change. In many ways, ArenaNet managed to both break a promise and tell its players a lie with the Manifesto.

(And your third worst argument, for the records, is how GW2 would be as close as possible to the Manifesto with current technology. If ArenaNet stated they would do more than they could possibly do, it’s their fault for overstating their own abilities.)

It’s not my worst argument ever. You simply refuse to see simple logic.

A game manufacturer says something 2 years before launch. 1.5 years before launch they say more. They add detail. Some details even “gasp” change. A year before launch more detail is added. Then they run a beta. You know, the thing that many of us played. There were reviews, videos. The actual game was shown. People generally knew what they were getting into pretty much precisely.

The only thing you can really complain about is the everything you loved about Guild Wars 1 line (clearly impossible since Mike O’Brien isn’t a mind reader and can’t know what everyone loved). Aside from that you take single statments out of context, ignore clarifications and everything else said in the two years before launch, and keep going back to the oldest expression of what the devs intended in a manifesto (which is a statement of intent in the first place, not a guarantee of delivery).

There was so much video and so much communication after the manifesto that anyone who even cared a bit about what would be in the game would know what would be in the game.

It’s not even research. Videos and reviews and information was EVERYWHERE. Yes, newer information always supercedes older information.

Do you know if you buy the official strategy guide, it still talks about dye seeds? Give me a break.

I’m a very casual gamer and I didn’t play GW1, hadn’t even heard of it. What got me to GW2 was their Manifesto – it was all over the place: how this mmo was going to be different, how your PS affected the world in a meaningfull way, how there would be no gear treadmill. But the game I play now is far from that spirit, and with how the latest LS installments are progressing I don’t see it changing, but getting worse: this is becoming an achievement/reward driven game, based on, in my opinion, meaningless activities.

Many people see a big difference between the manifesto and the game as it is now. That is not up for debate I think. Like indigo said, it is a moot point how people interpret a manifest and value what a game delivered.

For some it does, for some it didn’t. For me, based on the manifesto, it absolutely didn’t and it’s getting worse.

snakeboy.3062:

I’m a very casual gamer and I didn’t play GW1, hadn’t even heard of it. What got me to GW2 was their Manifesto – it was all over the place: how this mmo was going to be different, how your PS affected the world in a meaningfull way, how there would be no gear treadmill. But the game I play now is far from that spirit, and with how the latest LS installments are progressing I don’t see it changing, but getting worse: this is becoming an achievement/reward driven game, based on, in my opinion, meaningless activities.

Many people see a big difference between the manifesto and the game as it is now. That is not up for debate I think. Like indigo said, it is a moot point how people interpret a manifest and value what a game delivered.

For some it does, for some it didn’t. For me, based on the manifesto, it absolutely didn’t and it’s getting worse.

Sorry but if people interpret the manifesto wrong, it’s their problem. I’ve pointed out numerous times how a single line taken out of context changes the definition of what’s being said.

In a writing class I taught, I used an example from Shakespeare…“Romeo, Romeo, wherefore are thou, Romeo” and asked the class what it meant.

100% of most classes said she was asking where Romeo was. They were all wrong.

Anet clearly defined in the manifesto what they meant by grind, then referred to that grind two lines later. The only thing really up for discussion here is the standards of school education in different countries.

Vayne Quote for the day.

" The only thing really up for discussion here is the standards of school education in different countries"

Nice new tangent Vayne, if someone does not share your interpretation, they must be poorly educated.

You are so entertaining. :P