Guild Wars 2

Escadin.9482:

Jski.6180:

Im Mudbone.1437:

I miss it a lot, there was SO MUCH MORE teamwork using the trinity in GW1 compared to the zerg-fest in GW2, not to mention better optimization/utilization of many areas of the game.

So having to deal with something else during the fight is not team work. Each class is fighting something different dps is fighting the mobs hp tanks are fighting hate/agro and support is fighting the teams hp they happen to be working beside each other but that is a sad excuse for real team work. Real team work is being able to switch rolls to cover for your team as needed and to be able to communication with other ppl to work together attks on a mob this dose not mean you need to be a dps tank support this just means that your team knows what your going to do and you can tell them what going on.

In the 3 class system you do not need to communicate what your doing you just play a roll and fight for a different goals then say the other classes not to say you cant have team work in this setting but the “work” of real team work is reduced a great deal and is less likely to be real team work when you running a stander system.

Now in a system where there no roll to play every one must tell ppl what they are going to do and they are ability to switch there ability to best fit what the pt needs at that time. So now you can have real team work of communication.

The best example would be something that some what looked downed on but its needs a lot of team work to pull off the stacking on a boss and pushing it into a wall. What this needs is to have ppl move in the right spot well time there def skills to hit there team to buff there attk of there time during the right moment. All though it goes fast if done right it can go very wrong very fast if any one is simply out of places.

You just do not get this in a 3 class system because if one person messes up they are cover because of how over specialized ppl build classes in this system. If a healing over heals they make up for it by adding more mana if a dps dose too much dmg they make up for being more tankly if a tank fails to hold hate they make up for it by building more dps. THIS is not team work this is solo planing and wining by gear and classes.

Most games are moving away from a 3 class system in favor for a soft 3 class system much like you seen in GW2. You can still play a tankly hero a all in glass dps hero and a more support hero in GW2. In some format you about have a 3 class system spvp and the player made gvg / wvw over all.

Both are still a downgrade from 8+ class system in my opinion. If you want to know how real teamwork is supposed to look and play like you should check Warhammer online or Ragnarok. Their teamwork mechanics even carry through massive zergs in both PvE and PvP.

The point is self-reliant classes do not encourage teamwork at all. Nobody is ever shifting roles in GW2, we just blow out our own heals / boons / dps in order to keep ourselves running. The only reason dungeons require 5 people is because all those heals / boons / dps have to add up to a certain number because Monsters are overcharged with stats to compensate for poor ai.

Picking up people is just a low effort way to “unpunish” mistakes made by a large portion of Anets target audience. It has nothing to do with gameplay or teamplay, since it’s not even a matter of gamedesign, but of paymentmodels.

What your calling team work is face team work as in even if you do not talk to ppl your still going to be working to the same end. In gw2 you need to talk to each other to get something done there are so many beyond the class fights in GW2 that you MUST work as a team a real team to get things done. Just because there is a system that give an illusion of team work dose not mean there is team work there. If any thing the other players playing other classes in a 3 class system could be nothing more then bots and the job would be done and that simply not team work.

That is what real team work is asking your self if this player was not a real person contorting it would the job still get done. If yes then its not team work its classes and build that wining you a fight. If no then its real team work because you need to have a real thinking person on the other end that is able to changes how they play and think by the infused of your self and others in that group.

Not at all. Although their lack of imagination for combat encounters does make the current system unforgivable at times. Nothing I hate more than “stacking up” to kill a boss.

I played FFXIV for a while at release… A game with a very static trinity.

Coming back felt like taking off a really heavy jacket after wearing it for several days straight.

The contrast is stark and quite impressive.

A trinity game is about learning a set choreography for every fight, which becomes more obvious and apparent the harder the fight becomes. Lacking that knowledge you must either learn or use previously learnt choreography and adapt it to the new battle. Your leeway to mess up this dance of dodging damage and performing your duty is made somewhat easier by equipment. But you ultimately lack any freedom of choice, there is always an optimal action and whether you are doing it or not will decide the harder fights.

Guild Wars 2 compared is a game of freedom of choice, even with its small skill selection. There is never an optimal anwser to every step of the dance in a fight. There are merely choices, consequences and results.

So no, i don’t miss it… I think it’s holding back MMORPGs entirely… And the sooner we get away from it, the better. GW2 was a first step and i hope as arenanet refine their understanding of the monster they’ve unleashed so too will their encounters become more marionette than watchknight.

I really, really miss playing boon monks.

Sure everyone can heal on Guildwars, but being able to apply boons and protections as opposed to direct healing was so much more exciting.

EscataFlayer.8470:

But the thing is, classes are made to vary in specialties. If you want to consider yourself good at your class, then you need to learn all aspects. Give a healer spot will give better usage for many ingame viable options to be heal/support by both items and gameplay for people. Forcing a heale/support roll will be so much better, but don’t make a requirement to heal so that if the team wants a 5 man zerk, they can do so.

It would better benefit the crap pugging we have to go through in order to get a group that will do the dungeon. Where I enjoy an occasional Zerg rush, I like enemies having to need strategy to beat an make use of CC, instead of blitz and hope you kill.

Even if you don’t set a tank slot (which there is gear that makes this slot to actually be viable) a heal support is something that should be looked into being used.

But you already can have it.
A hammer/mace guardian can provide perma protection and a quite big healing output on top of reflections, aegis and several condition removals if required. It can also decently fulfill a tank role if needed.

The problem? A meta berserker guardian can provide everything but the healing while doing A LOT more damage, so it’s a better option as long the healing isn’t required (which can be applied to almost every small team content once you get familiar with it). The prot/heal guardian offers an easier time at the cost of clearing speed, but unfortunately that’s something quite important when dungeons are run for no other reason than farming.

Jski.6180:

What your calling team work is face team work as in even if you do not talk to ppl your still going to be working to the same end. In gw2 you need to talk to each other to get something done there are so many beyond the class fights in GW2 that you MUST work as a team a real team to get things done. Just because there is a system that give an illusion of team work dose not mean there is team work there. If any thing the other players playing other classes in a 3 class system could be nothing more then bots and the job would be done and that simply not team work.

That is what real team work is asking your self if this player was not a real person contorting it would the job still get done. If yes then its not team work its classes and build that wining you a fight. If no then its real team work because you need to have a real thinking person on the other end that is able to changes how they play and think by the infused of your self and others in that group.

I don’t believe you have ever played those games or played them the way I did with my brother and a friend (we still are, actually).
" asking your self if this player was not a real person contorting it would the job still get done."
If that’s supposed to be a question the answer is no. We wouldn’t have been able to overpower zergs outnumbering us 1:3 by coordination and inventive skillcombination or complete PvE content meant for at least twice as many or way better geared people in those games with a bot.
On the other hand, I have never had to actually talk to anyone in GW2 PUGs about tactics or strategy. They usually don’t listen anyway and I usually do not even care what they do. I just check for the times I have to dodge and roll my dps. End of story. Worked out pretty well so far. Picking casualties up excluded but I’ve already covered that before.

Everyone in GW2 has his/her holy right to not play as part of a team and people make quite liberal use of that right.

Escadin.9482:

Jski.6180:

What your calling team work is face team work as in even if you do not talk to ppl your still going to be working to the same end. In gw2 you need to talk to each other to get something done there are so many beyond the class fights in GW2 that you MUST work as a team a real team to get things done. Just because there is a system that give an illusion of team work dose not mean there is team work there. If any thing the other players playing other classes in a 3 class system could be nothing more then bots and the job would be done and that simply not team work.

That is what real team work is asking your self if this player was not a real person contorting it would the job still get done. If yes then its not team work its classes and build that wining you a fight. If no then its real team work because you need to have a real thinking person on the other end that is able to changes how they play and think by the infused of your self and others in that group.

I don’t believe you have ever played those games or played them the way I did with my brother and a friend (we still are, actually).
" asking your self if this player was not a real person contorting it would the job still get done."
If that’s supposed to be a question the answer is no. We wouldn’t have been able to overpower zergs outnumbering us 1:3 by coordination and inventive skillcombination or complete PvE content meant for at least twice as many or way better geared people in those games with a bot.
On the other hand, I have never had to actually talk to anyone in GW2 PUGs about tactics or strategy. They usually don’t listen anyway and I usually do not even care what they do. I just check for the times I have to dodge and roll my dps. End of story. Worked out pretty well so far. Picking casualties up excluded but I’ve already covered that before.

Everyone in GW2 has his/her holy right to not play as part of a team and people make quite liberal use of that right.

So zerg is a very missed used phrase and most real combat suffers from having larges groups. In pve 5 man group is not zerging any thing and for major boss fights you only “all in attk” during the right moments and thoughts moments are made by there team. Even the stander pull a mob to a wall and zerk it down request a lot of communication and team work. So what may look like an zerg to an outsider (not in ts or reading the chat) it looks random and no team work but if your an insider working with a team its a high level of team play that a 3 class system can never get to.

“Its just a zerg event” is the excuse of ppl who do not want to do it or cant do it nothing more.

I don’t see how any of you can consider trinity not teamwork. The tank will eventually die without a healer, the mobs won’t die without dps, the dps won’t survive without a someone taking the abuse, te healer won’t survive without the tank protecting. They all rely on each other, therefore is teamwork. Speaking to each other has never been a necessity in any game, an it certainly doesn’t work in this game. So there is nothing you can out as back up as to how this game is more teamwork then others. And the comments of “I don’t care about the other players, I just survive and pick up casualties” is a very prime example of how teamwork is not used in this game and further brings in my points. Trinity gave gameplay for dungeons a much better design for it to be an MMO and to remove it, especially to remove it permanently for any future MMO, is a poor decision for the future of gaming community. I get more team play from team death match call of duty black ops 2 then I do from this game. And for the few who don’t know what that is, it’s a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. Not even an MMORPG. So no, trinity is and has even a better scenario for team coop. It doesn’t need to be used for world pve, or wvw, or pvp. But it would make a huge impact for dungeons in making them more reliable to pug an give more reason to use other gear other then full zerk.

I do not miss the trinity. If I wanted to play the trinity, I’d play ANY OTHER MMO on the market. I am perfectly happy that I don’t have to accommodate my playstyle in order to get a functional group running. “Can anyone here tank??” crickets “Okay, let me get the character I didn’t log in with because I didn’t feel like playing it or that role and we’ll go….” or “LFTank then g2g!” for hours on end. No, thanks. I’m not wearing rose-colored glasses for that particular nightmare.

GW2 has damage, support and control.

These are usually distributed among the team so it’s much harder to see them in effect.

If you are going to want a game to play as self survival, don’t force zones or dungeons to require 5 people. Let the dungeons scale up depending how many are in party. I shouldn’t be forced to rely on 4 people who possibly can’t do a dungeons in order for me to get it done and try to get the gear or items I want. I would honestly prefer to wait an hour looking for a tank or healer, the have 4 attempts at a fractal run that each take an hour just to fail cause people don’t know or refuse to learn or get frustrated and leave. That itself is pointless and more a time Waster then throwing yourself into lfg and doing stuff til you find someone.

I also want to point out the large amount of people who have crappy computers which in turn lowered graphics, or removal of visual effects, and huge lag issues, make self survival extremely hard and for some, nearly impossible. So to a large amount of the community, you are forcing them to fail, get kittened at them and kick them cause they “suck” and you have this made them not want to play. Where as with the trinity if they were to want to play, any role can dps and they would be able to fill that slot and not worry about dying every second of a fight. So basically in addition I all this, it’s discouraging many to not want to play or even do dungeons.

EscataFlayer.8470:

I don’t see how any of you can consider trinity not teamwork. The tank will eventually die without a healer, the mobs won’t die without dps, the dps won’t survive without a someone taking the abuse, te healer won’t survive without the tank protecting. They all rely on each other, therefore is teamwork.

From a character point of view, there’s an ovious teamwork in trinity systems. When we say there’s no teamwork on it, however, we refer to that between actual players.
When character capabilites are so strongly differentiated that players can fulfill their tasks without a major need of real time communication, there’s no chance for teamwork to exist.

Neither does gw2 style. You need no communication at all except for high tier fractals which is something that is almost impossible to pug.

There is teamwork in both GW2 and traditional games. In GW2, that teamwork can consist of the application of buffs, defensive procs and heals, reviving others and coordinating the removal of defiant to apply timely CC. You can even trade aggro to a limited degree. In a trinity game, teamwork consists of playing your role.

Trinity teamwork is well-defined. There is almost no flexibility. GW2 teamwork is flexible. Different runs through the same dungeon could play out quite differently. However, as with other games, GW2 dungeon meta groups tend to follow a script, and players are expected to know the script to be considered competent. If the meta approach in GW2 is unpalatable, there’s always the option of grouping with the like-minded and using a different approach. You can’t do that in a trinity-based game.

What GW2 does not have is roles that are defined by class/profession and gear. GW2 roles are much more flexible. However, certain professions are valued because of the support they can offer while still providing “good” DPS. That’s a fault inherent to an attempt to make all professions different while also trying to make them the same.

Don’t equate the presence or absence of trinity with the presence or absence of interesting encounters. Mechanics to make encounters more interesting can be used under both systems. A tank ’n spank in a traditional game is the functional equivalent of a bag-of-health encounter in GW2. Neither is interesting.

The real issue with GW2 is that the devs just gave most bosses 3-4 attacks. As a result, encounters became a game of, “Figure out what moves to avoid and how to maximize DPS while doing so.” That’s closer to an action game approach than to a traditional MMO approach. Of course that’s going to alienate traditional players.

EscataFlayer.8470:

Neither does gw2 style. You need no communication at all except for high tier fractals which is something that is almost impossible to pug.

You need lots of communication to move mobs in the right places to kill things at the same time to move to different sides as needed. There some things that need no communication in gw2 but having the ability to move in such a way to avoid attks or adds request more communication then say a 3 class system where its more about gear and builds then the ability of the team to work as a group. The 3 class system is all but dead even in games that had super hard 3 class system have eased up on the the full defind rolls a great deal. At best your going to see less and less and there by making the game less about build in fake team work of the 3 class system (more of a simulated team work not real team work) and more about real communication or what is also know as team work.

Vargamonth.2047:

EscataFlayer.8470:

But the thing is, classes are made to vary in specialties. If you want to consider yourself good at your class, then you need to learn all aspects. Give a healer spot will give better usage for many ingame viable options to be heal/support by both items and gameplay for people. Forcing a heale/support roll will be so much better, but don’t make a requirement to heal so that if the team wants a 5 man zerk, they can do so.

It would better benefit the crap pugging we have to go through in order to get a group that will do the dungeon. Where I enjoy an occasional Zerg rush, I like enemies having to need strategy to beat an make use of CC, instead of blitz and hope you kill.

Even if you don’t set a tank slot (which there is gear that makes this slot to actually be viable) a heal support is something that should be looked into being used.

But you already can have it.
A hammer/mace guardian can provide perma protection and a quite big healing output on top of reflections, aegis and several condition removals if required. It can also decently fulfill a tank role if needed.

The problem? A meta berserker guardian can provide everything but the healing while doing A LOT more damage, so it’s a better option as long the healing isn’t required (which can be applied to almost every small team content once you get familiar with it). The prot/heal guardian offers an easier time at the cost of clearing speed, but unfortunately that’s something quite important when dungeons are run for no other reason than farming.

Only way to get/keep these boons is to stack and STACKING SUCKS.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Vargamonth.2047:

EscataFlayer.8470:

But the thing is, classes are made to vary in specialties. If you want to consider yourself good at your class, then you need to learn all aspects. Give a healer spot will give better usage for many ingame viable options to be heal/support by both items and gameplay for people. Forcing a heale/support roll will be so much better, but don’t make a requirement to heal so that if the team wants a 5 man zerk, they can do so.

It would better benefit the crap pugging we have to go through in order to get a group that will do the dungeon. Where I enjoy an occasional Zerg rush, I like enemies having to need strategy to beat an make use of CC, instead of blitz and hope you kill.

Even if you don’t set a tank slot (which there is gear that makes this slot to actually be viable) a heal support is something that should be looked into being used.

But you already can have it.
A hammer/mace guardian can provide perma protection and a quite big healing output on top of reflections, aegis and several condition removals if required. It can also decently fulfill a tank role if needed.

The problem? A meta berserker guardian can provide everything but the healing while doing A LOT more damage, so it’s a better option as long the healing isn’t required (which can be applied to almost every small team content once you get familiar with it). The prot/heal guardian offers an easier time at the cost of clearing speed, but unfortunately that’s something quite important when dungeons are run for no other reason than farming.

Only way to get/keep these boons is to stack and STACKING SUCKS.

But you got to TELL your team to stack or that your putting up such boon if you gave all boons endless ranges and no skill cap then you could just spam boons any time you want taking away from real team work.

Jski.6180:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Vargamonth.2047:

EscataFlayer.8470:

But the thing is, classes are made to vary in specialties. If you want to consider yourself good at your class, then you need to learn all aspects. Give a healer spot will give better usage for many ingame viable options to be heal/support by both items and gameplay for people. Forcing a heale/support roll will be so much better, but don’t make a requirement to heal so that if the team wants a 5 man zerk, they can do so.

It would better benefit the crap pugging we have to go through in order to get a group that will do the dungeon. Where I enjoy an occasional Zerg rush, I like enemies having to need strategy to beat an make use of CC, instead of blitz and hope you kill.

Even if you don’t set a tank slot (which there is gear that makes this slot to actually be viable) a heal support is something that should be looked into being used.

But you already can have it.
A hammer/mace guardian can provide perma protection and a quite big healing output on top of reflections, aegis and several condition removals if required. It can also decently fulfill a tank role if needed.

The problem? A meta berserker guardian can provide everything but the healing while doing A LOT more damage, so it’s a better option as long the healing isn’t required (which can be applied to almost every small team content once you get familiar with it). The prot/heal guardian offers an easier time at the cost of clearing speed, but unfortunately that’s something quite important when dungeons are run for no other reason than farming.

Only way to get/keep these boons is to stack and STACKING SUCKS.

But you got to TELL your team to stack or that your putting up such boon if you gave all boons endless ranges and no skill cap then you could just spam boons any time you want taking away from real team work.

That would be a valid argument if stacking wasn’t already the norm. Kiting it’s pretty much unneeded (and arguably detrimental) in GW2 as demonstrated by high end PvE parties. If you pin a boss it the corner, you don’t have to chase it and can use much stronger melee weapons; if you dodge roll into a wall, you get all the invincibility frames, without sacrificing your position; if you add in blink, aegis, reflect and protection, you have little reason to move; and you’re all stacked, the range of all boons becomes a complete non-issue.

I will say that most Pugs in this game don’t know all these benefits, but they do know that elite plays stack and melee in zerker gear so they try to follow suit.

Escadin.9482:

nGumball.1283:

ArenaNet need to balance it a little, just a little to make the other builds more viable and therefore introduce more vairety. On the other hand, all the talk about huge issues with dps is just a concept created by the players. Everyone wants the most viable build, everyone creates zergers and then 2 days later complain about how thy can’t support. If you don’t build support, you won’t be able to and for the reference you can’t build full support becasue that way you go back to the whole trinity where people slowly starts to using the old formula, tank healer and a dps, destorying the whole idea of an action-oriented combat.

There is no full support in GW2, there is only sub classes that works in alot of situations if you sacrafice some of your damage. Theses just need some tweaks to be more viable and therefore more rewarding.

Regarding the grind and gear progression suggested by some people. I guess you have never played other MMOs, there is a difference between must and you actually have the mentality to grind. There is nothing forcing you to grind to get an achievment or ascended, you can play the game and explore it as a whole without the need of these two. It is an option for more dedicated players and if you don’t feel like doing it, you don’t have to, it is about having the mentality to enjoy the game and actually understanding that you don’t need to play it for 50 years, because the reason why you played other MMOs that way is becasue the developers wanted you to grind for gear, that you couldn’t play the game without and therefore ended up playing more and more. The concep of a game with longevity based on pure quality content is an impossible option with current technology, only sandbox MMOs can be that way and GW2 isn’t created to be.

In 3 words: Wrong exclamation mark
“you can’t build full support becasue that way you go back to the whole trinity where people slowly starts to using the old formula, tank healer and a dps, destorying the whole idea of an action-oriented combat.”
Case in point: Tera is more of an actioncombat MMORPG than GW2 is and it has the trinity.

“There is no full support in GW2, there is only sub classes that works in alot of situations if you sacrafice some of your damage. Theses just need some tweaks to be more viable and therefore more rewarding.”
This is only one part of the issue. The other parts are one-hit attacks, easy to exploit and overall stupid ai, dodge, supremacy of self-heals and higher value of support builds in pvp (so any buff will overpower them there). Some small balance changes here and there won’t solve it.

“The concep of a game with longevity based on pure quality content is an impossible option with current technology, only sandbox MMOs can be that way and GW2 isn’t created to be.”
There is more than just sandbox.

However, you are right about " it is about having the mentality to enjoy the game and actually understanding that you don’t need to play it for 50 years". I just wonder whether that indicates a good MMORPG or an antagonism.

1. Highly debateable, you are mostly rooted in your place when using skills in Tera, going far away from being an action based MMO. At the end of the day it won’t matter, I have played in alot of group content in Tera and people don’t really care about the action combat, tanks tank, healers heal and others dps safely.

2. There is a point of having the capability to dodge and self-heal.

3. Sandboxes are the only games who offer valueable content in updates, there is no MMORPG up to date that got its longevity based on quality content. It is all about the next dungeon and next gear tier, if you see that as quality, GW2 isn’t your game.

No teamwork without the trinity? Try to do TA Aetherpath without teamwork… it’s impossible if your group doesn’t complete different roles at same time :P

Besides that, gw2 is pretty much a zerg, and that’s really bad. I personally think that Anet is making a step-forward trying to address that, but it’s a long way and we won’t see a perfect balanced system without a trinity soon.

Dual.8953:

Jski.6180:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Vargamonth.2047:

EscataFlayer.8470:

But the thing is, classes are made to vary in specialties. If you want to consider yourself good at your class, then you need to learn all aspects. Give a healer spot will give better usage for many ingame viable options to be heal/support by both items and gameplay for people. Forcing a heale/support roll will be so much better, but don’t make a requirement to heal so that if the team wants a 5 man zerk, they can do so.

It would better benefit the crap pugging we have to go through in order to get a group that will do the dungeon. Where I enjoy an occasional Zerg rush, I like enemies having to need strategy to beat an make use of CC, instead of blitz and hope you kill.

Even if you don’t set a tank slot (which there is gear that makes this slot to actually be viable) a heal support is something that should be looked into being used.

But you already can have it.
A hammer/mace guardian can provide perma protection and a quite big healing output on top of reflections, aegis and several condition removals if required. It can also decently fulfill a tank role if needed.

The problem? A meta berserker guardian can provide everything but the healing while doing A LOT more damage, so it’s a better option as long the healing isn’t required (which can be applied to almost every small team content once you get familiar with it). The prot/heal guardian offers an easier time at the cost of clearing speed, but unfortunately that’s something quite important when dungeons are run for no other reason than farming.

Only way to get/keep these boons is to stack and STACKING SUCKS.

But you got to TELL your team to stack or that your putting up such boon if you gave all boons endless ranges and no skill cap then you could just spam boons any time you want taking away from real team work.

That would be a valid argument if stacking wasn’t already the norm. Kiting it’s pretty much unneeded (and arguably detrimental) in GW2 as demonstrated by high end PvE parties. If you pin a boss it the corner, you don’t have to chase it and can use much stronger melee weapons; if you dodge roll into a wall, you get all the invincibility frames, without sacrificing your position; if you add in blink, aegis, reflect and protection, you have little reason to move; and you’re all stacked, the range of all boons becomes a complete non-issue.

I will say that most Pugs in this game don’t know all these benefits, but they do know that elite plays stack and melee in zerker gear so they try to follow suit.

So positioning is one of the hardest thing to do in terms of team work. If any thing that is the norm is no longer team work then every game loses its team work after the first month its not a good argument to disprove my point. Its not important if these are hard or easy you must talk to your team to make these work and they must be in ranges to get hit by these. The limitation of the boons makes team work more important non limitation on boons say any ranges cast and super aoe every one makes it less team work aimed. The same can be said for a heal in most 3 class games they tend to just have a heal all it dose it heal no way to stop it no skill just a simple heal and it will always heal in GW2 there is no just “heal” there are heal effect that need to meet some condition before it can heal. For these heals to go off you need to work as a team to make it work right the main heals are water fields you must call these fields and you must have ppl use there finisher in a very small set of time.

The problem is that the argument is the 3 class system by it self make a game a team game and that simply not true playing a class the way the class should be played dose not make it into a team game communication makes it a team game.

The trinity is a very ubiquitous concept in the world of MMORPGs so I could understand why people are a bit tired of it. However, it does add a little more structure and organization to team play.

GW1 had defined roles but lacked a threat mechanic so it wasn’t quite as in-depth as some of the WoW-esque titles out there. GW2 has less defined roles but there are still class strengths, i.e. no class can out-support a Guardian. It’s very similar to GW1 except for the fact that classes are designed to be self sustaining instead of relying on dedicated healer classes. I know that per class self heals and defensive utility skills existed in GW1 but it was hardly practical to rely on them in most cases.

If you’re looking for the kind of depth required for sophisticated raiding, I don’t think you’ll ever see it in this game. They may release ~10 man “dungeons” at some point but I suspect it’ll resemble world events/boss fights more than anything.

Jski.6180:

The problem is that the argument is the 3 class system by it self make a game a team game and that simply not true playing a class the way the class should be played dose not make it into a team game communication makes it a team game.

It doesn’t “make a game a team game” but it does add another dynamic. Class specialization, threat mechanics and the like makes forming teams and playing various roles a much more in-depth process. Some folks may not like this kind of structure but it most definitely will make your game more of a team game than it is without.

Jski.6180:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Vargamonth.2047:

EscataFlayer.8470:

But the thing is, classes are made to vary in specialties. If you want to consider yourself good at your class, then you need to learn all aspects. Give a healer spot will give better usage for many ingame viable options to be heal/support by both items and gameplay for people. Forcing a heale/support roll will be so much better, but don’t make a requirement to heal so that if the team wants a 5 man zerk, they can do so.

It would better benefit the crap pugging we have to go through in order to get a group that will do the dungeon. Where I enjoy an occasional Zerg rush, I like enemies having to need strategy to beat an make use of CC, instead of blitz and hope you kill.

Even if you don’t set a tank slot (which there is gear that makes this slot to actually be viable) a heal support is something that should be looked into being used.

But you already can have it.
A hammer/mace guardian can provide perma protection and a quite big healing output on top of reflections, aegis and several condition removals if required. It can also decently fulfill a tank role if needed.

The problem? A meta berserker guardian can provide everything but the healing while doing A LOT more damage, so it’s a better option as long the healing isn’t required (which can be applied to almost every small team content once you get familiar with it). The prot/heal guardian offers an easier time at the cost of clearing speed, but unfortunately that’s something quite important when dungeons are run for no other reason than farming.

Only way to get/keep these boons is to stack and STACKING SUCKS.

But you got to TELL your team to stack or that your putting up such boon if you gave all boons endless ranges and no skill cap then you could just spam boons any time you want taking away from real team work.

Stacking is absolutely useless for PURELY RANGED characters I refuse to stack then run to my ranged position only to have the buff wear off SOON AFTER reaching said position when classes/roles could just individually buff certain classes if/when there are dedicated roles to play. The way it is now being able to be your own healer/DPS/condition applier/tank(pet) is nothing more than a glorified SINGLE-PLAYER game with MMO mechanics.

@jski

My point is if you pug a dungeon run these days, you don’t go “I’m about to give this boon”, and most pugs by in large already no where the optimal LoS stacking position is. They all run through the dungeons, standing in the exact same spots, using the exact same playstyle and gear set ups. The only variations are the ones arbitrarily imposed by them being different classes.
If you don’t run Zerker Gear with runes of the Scholar, and a cleaving melee weapon, and don’t stack in the same place using some popular build that you likely didn’t create you’re generally considered bad your peers.
This is why this thread has popped up. Players came to GW2 under the assumption that they wouldn’t be forced to play a specific way in order to be respected. They want their contributions to a fight to matter, they just don’t want to be based around dps.

I myself am not looking for the return for healer and tank, but as a player who’s mained thief since launch, I know what it’s like when your playstyle feels unwanted, and I do feel that it’s a horrendous shame that this game with all it’s build options and possible tactics has gotten to the point where, only one set of armour and one set of runes are valuable, and that there exists one ultimate strategy that applies to 90+% of the game’s PvE content.

In short, Anet needs to re-evaluate how it challenges the player base.

Dual.8953:

In short, Anet needs to re-evaluate how it challenges the player base.

From the looks of some of the recent additions and even LS’s temporary encounters, it seems Arenanet will be focusing on more specialized boss mechanics and environment interaction. Of course, strong DPS will probably remain a factor for any group composition.

Frankly, I think they need greater and more cerebral challenges overall though—burning through 5 zillion health is getting old fast.

Dual.8953:

@jski

My point is if you pug a dungeon run these days, you don’t go “I’m about to give this boon”, and most pugs by in large already no where the optimal LoS stacking position is. They all run through the dungeons, standing in the exact same spots, using the exact same playstyle and gear set ups. The only variations are the ones arbitrarily imposed by them being different classes.
If you don’t run Zerker Gear with runes of the Scholar, and a cleaving melee weapon, and don’t stack in the same place using some popular build that you likely didn’t create you’re generally considered bad your peers.
This is why this thread has popped up. Players came to GW2 under the assumption that they wouldn’t be forced to play a specific way in order to be respected. They want their contributions to a fight to matter, they just don’t want to be based around dps.

I myself am not looking for the return for healer and tank, but as a player who’s mained thief since launch, I know what it’s like when your playstyle feels unwanted, and I do feel that it’s a horrendous shame that this game with all it’s build options and possible tactics has gotten to the point where, only one set of armour and one set of runes are valuable, and that there exists one ultimate strategy that applies to 90+% of the game’s PvE content.

In short, Anet needs to re-evaluate how it challenges the player base.

But if your a pug giving boons and others are not getting them you can say you must be in the ranges of the boon to get it. There no support class that must give this boon all the time because applying that boon is something you do before you even start to fight and it simply stays up for the fight in its entirely because your a support class that can only support.

You find pugs who do not use zerk most of them just running it the first time or a few times are not speed running it they often build very tankly. Its the non pugs who bich and “hate” on ppl for not running full zerk.

That great but this is a talk about the 3 class system vs a non 3 class system or what is also know as the soft 3 class system. Its not important if its fun or not its important that in most fights in GW2 you NEED to talk to ppl and that has a lot to do with the way GW2 class system works and the environment effects. Having a 3 class system would do NOTHING for GW2 team work because a 3 class system is base off playing the class and having the right gear/build not working with a team.

Dual.8953:

@jski

My point is if you pug a dungeon run these days, you don’t go “I’m about to give this boon”, and most pugs by in large already no where the optimal LoS stacking position is. They all run through the dungeons, standing in the exact same spots, using the exact same playstyle and gear set ups. The only variations are the ones arbitrarily imposed by them being different classes.
If you don’t run Zerker Gear with runes of the Scholar, and a cleaving melee weapon, and don’t stack in the same place using some popular build that you likely didn’t create you’re generally considered bad your peers.
This is why this thread has popped up. Players came to GW2 under the assumption that they wouldn’t be forced to play a specific way in order to be respected. They want their contributions to a fight to matter, they just don’t want to be based around dps.

At least part of that is on the players. Running dungeons to farm tokens or gold ad nauseam creates the desire to get through the dungeon as quickly as possible. Thus, the “requirement” to use the “proven” methods and most optimum build choices. The exact same thing happens in other games. The only exception is that there are two party members who are using a tank and heal build, respectively, while the others are expected to use the maximum DPS options available to them. Fail to use the “right” build or know the dungeon and you will be ostracized, same as in GW2.

The other side of it is that in GW2 you can complete content playing what you want, you just can’t play with the cool kids. In other games, someone has to bite the healer and tank bullets.

the game is epic shallow cuz its not inside the game and is just holy DPS

I miss it.

Then again, playing a druid made it easier, all 3 in one :P

I don’t miss it. The 20th century called, they want they’re game play back.

EscataFlayer.8470:

Neither does gw2 style. You need no communication at all except for high tier fractals which is something that is almost impossible to pug.

You hit the nail in the last sentence: teamwork is PUG-unfriendly by its very nature.

Part of the temawork would be about group wide buildcrafting, slotting the required/desired tools (condition removals, fire fields, blast finishers, vulnerability stacks, etc.) the most efficient way.
PUGs can’t do this. PUGs are about teaming up with completely random players that might be using whatever build you could imagine, so preparation is either about using yourself a self-sufficient build (which will be clearly unefficient) or using / looking for specific META builds.

The core part of teamwork would be about developing and executing tactics in order to handle different challeneges. For an organized group, a different approach might require different tools, so it becomes closely related to buildcrafting.
With the PvE being so deterministic and heavily scripted as it is, an organized group would need to go through this job a limited amount of times, just until the right tactic (which might vary between different groups) is found and mastered

For a real PUG this is completely different. Team wide buildcrafting is not an option, and the lack of knowledge about others strengths/weaknesses and overall capabilities would force players to stop and discuss tactics whenever any slightly complex situation arises.
The easiest solution is, now again, about following META tactics, which becomes even easier if players are also using the META builds the tactics were developed for.

And that’s exactly why GW2 PvE content is so faceroll easy for the most part.
Harder content and mechanics (like a higher degree of randomness) would require more complex tactics and even constant real time teamwork.

Good examples could be found on any tPvP match. Playing solo for the most part, I can’t remember how many times a teammate and I have both tried to stomp the same downed enemy just for having it resurrected in front of our faces. If one of us would have cleaved the body while the other stomped, the result would have been completely different.
That’s a clear example of teamwork, but it requires either VoIP communication, a dedicated group where those situations have been already discussed (preferably both) or a set of widely accepted rules (stomp priority belongs to the guardian, for example) which we could call META tactics (which still is completely lackluster).

While this kind of things would probably please organized groups, they could force PUGs to strictly follow META setups (whih they might dislike) and, even with that, to struggle without some kind of VoIP communication.
Soft trinity / lack of trinity promotes teamplay (and GW2 is not even close to the potential of a system like this), but teamplay itself is a quite PUG-unfriendly and hard to monetize concept.

In the end, a hard trinity system is much more PUG-friendly than anything else, and that’s because it’s nothing but an extremely harsh built-in META which assigns each player a modular task, completely independant from each other execution wise.

No, I don’t miss it at all.

On trinity games players cant find groups if not healer dps or tank, here on gw2 a player cant find group if not zerker,or dont know how to exploit dungeons…

Both are bad systems.

I miss the famous trio of GW1 that is

Damage
Control (via interrupts, shutdown, linebacking …) & Support (both offensive and defensive)
Healing & especially Protection, also prekiting (which was made completely trivial on GW2)

and ofcourse actual team play.

Tried the holy trinity again recently in a different MMO, it was nice but I missed being able to be useful outside of my designated role even faster than I originally missed the trinity.

It’s nice having set roles and what not, that’s what we miss here. Once they fix the zerker meta and get the new ‘trinity’ working that was intended at launch, we’ll have much more fun than with just sitting in corners in dungeons spamming FGS rush and DPS skills.

I miss older dungeon formats more than the trinity, I view that as more of the issue as it really limits everything you actually need to do to win.

Nope, I don’t miss trinity.

Aeolus.3615:

On trinity games players cant find groups if not healer dps or tank, here on gw2 a player cant find group if not zerker,or dont know how to exploit dungeons…

Both are bad systems.

Exactly my point. Trinity Lite is far superior, you’re expected to play a role, you’re expected to help, there are systems of damage like DoTs available, and CC actually works, the system allows for people to put groups of well organized teams together but ultimately it’s not necessary.

Trinity Lite FTW.

On one hand I love having no roles and thus running with guildies regardless of their preferred class. If we want to do an instance with three engineers, a mesmer and a thief then we can even if it’s not as efficient as ideal setups. On the other, it makes group activities fall apart and become a “Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger” zerg that does not in fact encourage teamwork.

Huddling in a specific spot, blowing skills as soon as their cooldown is over and lucking out on combo field blasters is not teamwork. Replace all other people with NPCs programmed to spam their auto attack while stacking on top of us and no one would notice the difference. Kind of like the poor man’s GW1 henchmen.

What the teamwork part of the game needs is the option to morph into a role whenever one wants to. Have something on the Hero panel that allows us to switch with a cooldown of 30 minutes or some other mild restriction to prevent people switching back and forth too much and exploit mechanics.

Example:

When a ranger switches to support his healing power is increased, boon duration increased, toughness decreased, attack power decreased while his skills keep their original mechanic but change their effect. The barrage skill of longbow is still a long range AoE but instead of AoE damage it does AoE heal. The further away the ranger is, the bigger the heal. Traps do not deal damage but keep their combo field effect and grant vigor / protection / regeneration / stability depending on which trap the ranger uses.

Spirits do nothing on their own and are invulnerable until utilized, following their master. When utilized the spirits root in place, grant their current buff and debuff with 100% chance and longer duration (stone spirit → 10 sec protection instead of 3, 5 sec immobilization instead of 2) then dissolve into thin air and go on cooldown. No proc chance RNG involved. Pets deal minimal damage but all F2 skills are reduced to have a 5 sec cooldown.

I’m pulling the numbers out of my behind so those can be tweaked but when I heard about GW2 having no trinity, I assumed that meant everyone being able to take on any role at any time. Instead of everyone being a glorified damage dealer.

If you think about it, the first thing humans do in groups when faced with an objective is define roles. And, this is true whether we’re talking brain surgery or scavenger hunts. It is certainly true of modern combat where a general is able to describe a battle by moving pieces around a graphic labelled ‘infantry’, ‘armored’, ‘artillery’, etc. What we have in GW2 is the most primitive conception of combat imaginable, the berserker battlefield, where everyone simply enrages and goes for it.

Generally, humans do this because it is the most effective way of prosecuting battle. It also, and this is key, gives one a sense of of being needed, of knowing that without your role’s contribution, the battle would have been lost.

This is why you see these threads over and over. It’s not the absence of the trinity that’s at issue here; it’s the absence of meaningful combat roles.

Raine.1394:

What we have in GW2 is the most primitive conception of combat imaginable, the berserker battlefield, where everyone simply enrages and goes for it.

Best quote ever.

I think that’s kind of what they wanted to achieve though.
Sounds like GW2 all over to me, anyway. You can either sit back and do whatever your pighead tells you to do or go out there and have ‘mindless, careless an easily accessible fun’. It’s just they promoted the second part so drastically that everyone else misses out. I figure GW2 is comparable to popmusic. It’s easy, it’s available, there are no striking edges anyone could dislike and that’s why it is such a potent businessmodel. Whether this makes it a better kind of game (or music) is highly debatable though.

The picture in my mind of the trinity is a night elf in purple bear form, swatting at something ten times its size, while a bunch of rogues throw stuff at it from across the room. As the healer, I hover my mouse over various nameplates and type 1, 2, or whatever is needed until the big thing falls down and we move on. Despite how ridiculous that picture is I had a lot of fun doing it at the time. But I don’t really miss it.

I love how so many people are exaggerating. Trinity does not mean HARD trinity… it can take a range of varieties, the one more tolerating, the other more strict. Light trinities are obviously a LOT better than kittenes, but they’re also better than GW2 combat system that is a DPS-only-ty.

Sirendor.1394:

I love how so many people are exaggerating. Trinity does not mean HARD trinity… it can take a range of varieties, the one more tolerating, the other more strict. Light trinities are obviously a LOT better than kittenes, but they’re also better than GW2 combat system that is a DPS-only-ty.

Trinity is just a vague term for what is essentially class specialization. Classes in GW2 are somewhat specialized, otherwise there would be little point in having classes. However, it’s a fairly vague specialization and in most cases has more to do with preferred playing style, effectiveness or a particular function(i.e. group stealth, reflect) than anything else. Classes in GW2 don’t fit together in any meaningful way in a team context.

mooty.4560:

Sirendor.1394:

I love how so many people are exaggerating. Trinity does not mean HARD trinity… it can take a range of varieties, the one more tolerating, the other more strict. Light trinities are obviously a LOT better than kittenes, but they’re also better than GW2 combat system that is a DPS-only-ty.

Trinity is just a vague term for what is essentially class specialization. Classes in GW2 are somewhat specialized, otherwise there would be little point in having classes. However, it’s a fairly vague specialization and in most cases has more to do with preferred playing style, effectiveness or a particular function(i.e. group stealth, reflect) than anything else. Classes in GW2 don’t fit together in any meaningful way in a team context.

That the trick the classes do not fit together but the players do. Its a question do you play as a class or do you play as your hero. A class cant truly changes even GW2 classes have some effects that only that class has but they are open enofe to let the class be less important to the player or the hero your playing as. If you need a wall you can changes your skills to make these walls if you need a tank you can changes your skill to be more tankly etc.. Playing as a hero over a class add soo much more meaning to every thing you do in a game. Some ppl will always fall to the “best” build point of views and think that every one else should think the same way but that not how real life works nor should it work that way in a game. But ppl are bullied into it and that just wrong on many levels.

Jski.6180:

That the trick the classes do not fit together but the players do. Its a question do you play as a class or do you play as your hero. A class cant truly changes even GW2 classes have some effects that only that class has but they are open enofe to let the class be less important to the player or the hero your playing as.

That’s easy, you’re playing as a class. This isn’t paper and dice role-playing where you can customize your character as much as you desire. It’s structured and you choose a class that has a specific set of tools to manipulate the game world as designed by the developers. However, the distinction between classes in GW2 is more so particular playing styles(i.e. class mechanics, armor type, weapon selection) than it is set team roles. It has nothing to do with immersion and everything to do with game design.

If you need a wall you can changes your skills to make these walls if you need a tank you can changes your skill to be more tankly etc.. Playing as a hero over a class add soo much more meaning to every thing you do in a game. Some ppl will always fall to the “best” build point of views and think that every one else should think the same way but that not how real life works nor should it work that way in a game. But ppl are bullied into it and that just wrong on many levels.

Certain builds are considered the cream of the crop. People have had success with them, they trust that they work, etc. If you want to play an unorthodox build you need to find people that don’t care or just don’t know. Most pugs won’t even notice that you’re not running the expected builds. However, other players have the right to ask you to bring a particular build, just as you have the right not to participate with those players. If you can’t reach an agreement, one of you(likely whomever isn’t leading) should find another group, because those players should not have to tolerate your build choice. In essence, this problem goes both ways and you need to recognize that.

GW2 is the closest thing I’ve seen to a single player RPG that you happen to play with other people. The classes are fairly self reliant and the team cohesion is basically nil. There’s some shared boons/heals/status effects(but no micro), you can resurrect other players, you can use combo fields and you can work in tandem in general.. but that’s where allied player interaction ends. It’s unique, I’ll give it that, but there is something lost in translation when you simplify game play in this fashion.

EscataFlayer.8470:

3 tiers of groups.

Tank – Warrior
Heals/Offtank – Guardian
DPS/CC – Mesmer