Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

And yet some people seem to feel they should be able to take their PVT tank from wvw into dungeons and not only do them, but be as efficient as the dungeon specific zerk meta. Which is a bit of an odd line of thinking to my mind.

Yeah, it is an odd way of thinking. There have been plenty of threads comparing soldier’s to glass builds which have established that they are relatively balanced when fighting each other.

I once believed that more of the damage formula should be centered around the weapon’s damage, with power playing a correspondingly lesser role. One could even tweak the formula so that max power builds end up in the same place, which would mean neither soldier’s nor zerker would be affected at all, but builds with lower power stats would see an increase.

I say “once believed” because I’m no longer sure about this. The primary issue I see is that builds that use more healing power would end up in a better place, damage-wise. I’m no longer sure that that is appropriate.

I will say again that I am all for making the content more difficult and I would quite happily bin all my current gear if it meant dungeon content was made challening and interesting. But the suggestions i’ve seen thus far don’t strike me as being right, nor does any of the current “anti zerk” sentiment I see. But then, maybe I am biased/wrong. Who knows.

I don’t believe you’re wrong. This is a perspective from a player who rarely speed runs, who has a variety of gear set-ups across different characters and who never kicks anyone for gear. Every anti-gear-meta argument I’ve seen in these forums has either been based around false assumptions; has offered suggestions that would impact diversity in casual groups while increasing or at least failing to reduce discrimination in the PuG meta; or would severely imbalance other parts of the game — including soloing through the open world content as well as in the Pvp modes. The real issue with zerk discrimination is a people issue, not a game issue. Changes to game mechanics would only transfer the behavior, such changes cannot stop it.

The real problems in small group play center around lack of much of anything new for going on 22 months and simplistic boss mechanics. Dungeons were challenging back at launch, but a lot of people know them cold. In addition, players have learned to play GW2, so new dungeons with the same simple mechanics would be seen as easy.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

I honestly feel the hate for zerkers is more often than not, misdirected. Zerks is just the practical gear choice for the challenge Anet has presented it’s playerbase.
I feel the biggest most glaring issue with Dungeons is how by in large, most of the encounters can be arguably trivialized by one single tactic. This tactic has proven so effective in almost every encounter, that it has pretty much become the tactic everyone is expected to use, unless it has been stated otherwise while the party was formed. What’s worse is a good deal of the time, the players who use this tactic have no idea why they do it and thus usually only manage to muster a pale image of the tactic.
The best players in this game have refined this tactic to the point that, what was intended to a grueling boss encounter can be ended in meer seconds with a single coordinated burst.
Before you jump up and scream “STACKING!”, at the top of your lungs, stop, sit back down. No, it’s not stacking. There’s teamplay and coordination in stacking. I encourage you to actually learn how a why pros stack, because honestly a lot of players have no idea how or why to stack. (And as a result they do it wrong)

The tactic I’m talking about (if you haven’t already figured it out) is Line-of-Sighting (Or LoSing).
Now don’t get me wrong, using LoS to avoid damage and bait opponents should be as important to combat in Guild Wars 2 as it is in any FPS game, and it is. LoSing is a crucial factor in PvP, WvW and PvE as it should be.
The problem with LoSing in PvE is that unlike in WvW and PvP, the enemies you LoS are too stupid to counter LoSing. You just find a stacking spot, pull and they’ll mindlessly walk into your meat grinder like a pack of lemmings. Ranged or melee, it doesn’t matter, they just mindlessly feed themselves to you.
If the devs ever want the players to handle encounters in the way that they envisioned players would handle them, they are going to have address how the AI handles LoSing. (You can’t tell me that they went to the trouble of creating encounters in large rooms and added movement skills do the game, just so players could ignore all that and find a corner to stand in.)

Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter

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Posted by: Aomine.5012

Aomine.5012

Anet is not actively encouraging zerker but is enforcing a policy where you can’t spam 1 while afk for 30 minutes and win. That’s just not going to work.

These bosses you mention ( except teq) have unique mechanics that have to be learned and used. Yes there’s a timer on it because if there wasn’t players couldn’t fail.

The mechanic would be useless since you could bypass it by running in, hitting it a bit, dying, repeat. So you’ve bypassed the mechanic supposed to punish you if you’re not engaging correctly.

If you don’t play the encounter right you will die. If you die you don’t dps. If you don’t dps the timer will run down and you will lose.

Anet isn’t encouraging zerker, Anet is enforcing mechanics by punishing players that fail to adhere to them.

Wurms phase 2 burn phase, Six Mins Knightfall, Crown Pavillion has “unique mechanic”? Seriously?

All you need to do is stack in one spot, stack mights, wear highest dps gear, bring as many FGS ele as you can, and kill bosses in VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
(2 mins, 6 mins, and 7 mins)

How can this not be just another hardcapped DPS check?
Many people can’t win these because they do not spec enough in their dps, and you can’t control them or change them whatsoever.

Timer does not make an encounter harder, it’s just an easy way for Anet to increase
difficulty without adjusting anything or make versatile mechanics.
There’re numerous ways to increase difficulty, such as defending certain objective, dead people cannot rev, capping certain objectives together, etc.
However, Anet does not know how to implant these type of mechanic and makes it hard enough to poses any challenge to our zergish type of play-style, so they just add a timer so they don’t have to do anything to their contents.

Also, my previous posts already provided numerous ways to increase the encounter difficulty. Husk by itself is a good example, but there need to be more enemies with similar mechanic and infest them all around Tyria.

Yes they do have mechanics. Especially the pavilion.

Maybe you’ve noticed that mechanic called the Turret that made one of the bosses become the bane of pugs.

Or other mechanics that demand constant reflects or player interaction.
If you’re saying these encounters don’t have mechanics you’re just plain wrong.

BOOM BOOM Something is one of the easiest bosses to deal with..
A pure dps check that requires no strategy.

Destroyer, Charr Shaman , Centaur, Pirates, and Ogre are all harder…

Also Crown Pavillion only has this strategy of killing the bosses together to make it easier, it’s not really a strategy but a time and dps check. If all groups are not made of random PUGs who probably does minimal damage, but a full group of Zerkers, then the content suddenly becomes quite easy. (Except the ogre one, that’s the type of bosses I’ve been encouraging Anet to add, a boss that has reflect damage mechanic)

Of course some bosses need to have reflector and stuff to make it easier, but that has nothing to do with stats you need. (You still need Zerker for the most part)

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Except that your gear affects your dps, and the majority of players seem to be under the impression that if you aren’t pumping out the max dps (of which a component is having zerker gear) you’re not as valuable as someone who is.

Well they are not as valuable at least in that factor. There is several ways to be useful in a group.

- Do you have a good DPS?
- Can you survive by your own?
- Do you know well enough the encounter?
- Do you know enough about the other profession to bring some synergy with them?
- Do you bring useful support to the team?

In reality, someone with Soldier gear could bring more to the party than a zerker dude. The guys with Soldier gear have a good meta build with blind, aegis, reflect, etc. He know what to do and when to do it. He never go down, etc. While the zerker guys don’t know kitten, is always down and kitten things up in certain situation.

In this case, i want soldier dude not the zerker one. But if you focus only on the gear, a zerker wil always bring more to the group than someone with any other gear. This been said a lot of time. Gear only offer a trade-off between dmg and you OWN survivability. Vitality, Toughness, etc Bring nothing to the group. Nothing. All the non dps stuff that are interesting for a group are in trait and skills not in gear.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Line of sighting isn’t even a problem, if mobs didn’t LoS we would literally just pull them together.

Here’s what trivialises dungeons:

1. Fiery greatsword
2. Ice bow
3. Reflecting fully projectile-based bosses

#1, the fiery noobsword can literally be removed from the game and I would be jumping for joy, #2 needs to be nerfed because if #1 is removed people will just spam more #2, and #3 is simply a case of bosses having weak mechanics.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: VodCom.6924

VodCom.6924

Speed running is a niche gameplay. Fenrir is right about it. However, speed running is a desirable niche that an enormous amount of people care about, because it happens that it is the most profitable way of earning gold in the game.

Nobody would ever care about it if speed running was not the most lucrative activity in the game outside of the TP. I mean, I understand the need for some player to show their skill by breaking a world record. It is the way they want to play and I have no problem with this.

So we are still with this problem. The niche is hardly accessible because it requires a very specific niche gear, yet lots of people want to access this and consider such a thing to be “endgame content of gw2” (debatable statement).

Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

And how exactly is zerker interfering with CC?

One is a gear set. The other is a type of skill that is used to knock down or knock back or do mean stuff to a boss or enemy.

How does zerker work against CC?

I’m really sad when I see misinformed posts like this. People (like yourself) actually believe that zerker is the root of all problems in this game. However the truth is different.
A full zerker player can still CC to the best of his/her ability.
Defiant is the reason that CC is not used / not required / not viable.

And you shouldn’t forget that a full zerker player can still support his team through:
boon sharing
res mechanics
reflects
heals

In fact -the only thing a zerk player will do worse as a support than a full Cleric’s is maybe less healing and less boon uptime.

Thank you, you highlight the issue wonderfully. This is precisely what some of us are talking about. Because of the way support and cc currently works, there is no reason to wear anything other than zerker gear. That’s the issue (Not the gear itself) There is no point for many people to take anyone wearing any other gear type, because it makes them less effective at dps while having no effect on whether they can adaquately support or cc. As I stated in another post, if a group was looking for a mesmer they would take the one in zerk over the one in valk because the one is zerk will do more damage while still offering the same amount of support / cc as the other (assuming exact same builds, blah blah, only diff is armor). That is the issue.

I understand that GW2 intentionally walked away from the trinity, I applauded it. I’m not asking for the trinity back. However, they did state that the game still had roles, in the form of dps, support, etc. That you could play as you pleased; however, with the current set up that’s not true. Right now (in pve) its ‘run zerk dps or gfto’ There isn’t any incentive to run any other armor set up beyond wanting to, which isn’t how it should work. Different armors should have desirability for different functionality, but we lack that with the current set up.

And how is the fact that the amount of value you bring to your party as a player is not tied to your gear an issue?

Let’s put it another way – if one mesmer is wearing zerker and one is wearing valk, considering it is harder to survive as zerker then by rule of thumb the zerker mesmer should be a better player since he’s viable as zerker.

dude…

Monk in GW1 took considerably more skill than a lot of other classes, because it was healing based and had nearly no damage to make up for it.

Running clerics in dungeons here makes you weak, because bosses here are mostly dodge or die. Clerics vs. Berserkers won’t make nearly any difference in damage reduction, because toughness makes very little difference. On the other hand the kill speed of the player in Cleric’s is reduced AND the only thing he gets is badly scaled healing power.

I daresay Cleric is more challenging than Berserker in the stack and dps meta.

Gandara – Vabbi – Ring of Fire – Fissure of Woe – Vabbi
SPvP as Standalone All is Vain

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Line of sighting isn’t even a problem, if mobs didn’t LoS we would literally just pull them together.

Here’s what trivialises dungeons:

1. Fiery greatsword
2. Ice bow
3. Reflecting fully projectile-based bosses

#1, the fiery noobsword can literally be removed from the game and I would be jumping for joy, #2 needs to be nerfed because if #1 is removed people will just spam more #2, and #3 is simply a case of bosses having weak mechanics.

LOS is a simpler form a CC, that the npcs never account for. It doesnt require you to time your skill use, position it, or reapply it.

While i think using LOS to change the battlefield is a good mechanic, i think enemies shouldnt be as one dimensional about it, especially if they are at a distinct and complete disadvantage in doing so.

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

Well, I see that the problem in zerker being good in PvE, is because most mobs only sport low armor, medium HP and high damage.

There are very few enemies that have more defensive capabilities. So far only notable foes are “Partially digested husks”, who sport very heavy armor…

And since berserker gear works for fast, high damage bursts.

I hope update to mobs comes at one point, introducing us more variety than our common “zerker feed”, along with the desired more advanced and adaptive AI too.

Though I believe the variation might only affect foes with ranks veteran and higher, leaving the normal mobs as the “can be killed with any build” kind.

Making some enemies and bosses have higher armor would certainly help shake up the “zerker meta” (which only really exists on the ‘high end’ for speed runs anyway). And not even ALL enemies, as we still want ’zerk to have optimal value, but it would give more reason to have condition damage. Enemies with more rapid attacks that are harder to dodge (aka chainguns~) would create opportunities for support characters to shine via healing and protection. I would gladly take that over the “one-hit-KO, dodge-or-die” bullkitten we have in most of the encounters now.

Conclusion: We’re not going to see a change in the “zerker meta” until we see more variety in encounter design. To quote a previous thread “Zerk is fine.”

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Trice.4598

Trice.4598

Line of sighting isn’t even a problem, if mobs didn’t LoS we would literally just pull them together.

Here’s what trivialises dungeons:

1. Fiery greatsword
2. Ice bow
3. Reflecting fully projectile-based bosses

#1, the fiery noobsword can literally be removed from the game and I would be jumping for joy, #2 needs to be nerfed because if #1 is removed people will just spam more #2, and #3 is simply a case of bosses having weak mechanics.

That sums up my views of GW2 state.

50% of the time, my group won’t even bother LoS’ing mobs, it’s much faster to go up to them and pull them together. Same goes for some bosses, AC, SE P3, Arah P3. They could “fix” LoS’ing and it wouldn’t change anything to speed clearer (maybe 30 seconds longer path?)

Fiery Greatsword makes bad players look like good players and problem with both Ice bow and FGS is the same, overpowered #4 skill.

About reflects, they are just too strong in most cases, maybe reduce the reflected damages (Deadeye Dunwell does that and it works great)

(edited by Trice.4598)

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

Well they are not as valuable at least in that factor. There is several ways to be useful in a group.

- Do you have a good DPS?
- Can you survive by your own?
- Do you know well enough the encounter?
- Do you know enough about the other profession to bring some synergy with them?
- Do you bring useful support to the team?

In reality, someone with Soldier gear could bring more to the party than a zerker dude. The guys with Soldier gear have a good meta build with blind, aegis, reflect, etc. He know what to do and when to do it. He never go down, etc. While the zerker guys don’t know kitten, is always down and kitten things up in certain situation.

In this case, i want soldier dude not the zerker one. But if you focus only on the gear, a zerker wil always bring more to the group than someone with any other gear. This been said a lot of time. Gear only offer a trade-off between dmg and you OWN survivability. Vitality, Toughness, etc Bring nothing to the group. Nothing. All the non dps stuff that are interesting for a group are in trait and skills not in gear.

You and I seem to be of similar mind, but perhaps there is a language barrier issue at hand. Then again, perhaps I am not being the clearest. My husband regularly gripes at me about it.

I’ll say it again though. I do not feel zerker gear is the problem. I am not asking for it to be nerfed.

Perhaps it would have been better to say that zerker gear simply helps to highlight symptoms of underlying problems in the game and the disparities between established roles? shrug

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

1. Fiery greatsword
2. Ice bow
3. Reflecting fully projectile-based bosses

#1, the fiery noobsword can literally be removed from the game and I would be jumping for joy, #2 needs to be nerfed because if #1 is removed people will just spam more #2, and #3 is simply a case of bosses having weak mechanics.

I agree partially with that.

  1. - I don’t think that FGS should be remove completely. The weapon is only OP when you can stack in the wall and use skill 4 that do massive amount of dmg. Two easy way to deal with that would be to decrease the amount of dmg of the skill 4 or increase his cooldown. 10sec is crazy low for an attack that powerful. Of there is downside. Increase the cooldown and you decrease the mobility that FGS give to the ele. Decrease the dmg of the line, and its become a useless skill when us outside the wall. But in the end, i woudn’t be mad if they nerf it because is so powerful right now.
  1. - I don’t agree on the Ice bow. Only 1 skill is really powerful on that thing. So, ya it crazy powerful againt big target (burrows, boss, etc), but its a niche things. I’m not using my ice bow all the time and when I do, I use it for a really short period of time. Its a great dmg burst, but its doesn’t make any content trivial (except AC burrow). Maybe they could redesign the burrows so that you can’t one shot it with an Ice Bow, but you can’t make their life as big as a boss since they are not damage by crits or condition.
  1. - Of course if the enemy is only launching projectile, its a bad thing. You put a wall of reflection and that’s it. That’s totally a design flaw in some of the encounter of the game. But they should really retract on the ‘’some projectile are reflect, but some or not’’ mentality that they started recently.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

And how exactly is zerker interfering with CC?

One is a gear set. The other is a type of skill that is used to knock down or knock back or do mean stuff to a boss or enemy.

How does zerker work against CC?

I’m really sad when I see misinformed posts like this. People (like yourself) actually believe that zerker is the root of all problems in this game. However the truth is different.
A full zerker player can still CC to the best of his/her ability.
Defiant is the reason that CC is not used / not required / not viable.

And you shouldn’t forget that a full zerker player can still support his team through:
boon sharing
res mechanics
reflects
heals

In fact -the only thing a zerk player will do worse as a support than a full Cleric’s is maybe less healing and less boon uptime.

Thank you, you highlight the issue wonderfully. This is precisely what some of us are talking about. Because of the way support and cc currently works, there is no reason to wear anything other than zerker gear. That’s the issue (Not the gear itself) There is no point for many people to take anyone wearing any other gear type, because it makes them less effective at dps while having no effect on whether they can adaquately support or cc. As I stated in another post, if a group was looking for a mesmer they would take the one in zerk over the one in valk because the one is zerk will do more damage while still offering the same amount of support / cc as the other (assuming exact same builds, blah blah, only diff is armor). That is the issue.

I understand that GW2 intentionally walked away from the trinity, I applauded it. I’m not asking for the trinity back. However, they did state that the game still had roles, in the form of dps, support, etc. That you could play as you pleased; however, with the current set up that’s not true. Right now (in pve) its ‘run zerk dps or gfto’ There isn’t any incentive to run any other armor set up beyond wanting to, which isn’t how it should work. Different armors should have desirability for different functionality, but we lack that with the current set up.

And how is the fact that the amount of value you bring to your party as a player is not tied to your gear an issue?

Let’s put it another way – if one mesmer is wearing zerker and one is wearing valk, considering it is harder to survive as zerker then by rule of thumb the zerker mesmer should be a better player since he’s viable as zerker.

dude…

Monk in GW1 took considerably more skill than a lot of other classes, because it was healing based and had nearly no damage to make up for it.

Running clerics in dungeons here makes you weak, because bosses here are mostly dodge or die. Clerics vs. Berserkers won’t make nearly any difference in damage reduction, because toughness makes very little difference. On the other hand the kill speed of the player in Cleric’s is reduced AND the only thing he gets is badly scaled healing power.

I daresay Cleric is more challenging than Berserker in the stack and dps meta.

monk took skill not because it had no dmg, but moreso because it was not just about healing, monk had short term skills, and protection was as potent, if not more so than healing. Essentially monk had to actively defend the team, and actively recover based on reacting to what was going on.

The real deal is that in this game, gear is very rarely about what role/skills you are playing. the only stats that effect skills are
power, critical, ferocity, condi dmg, condi duration, boon duration

power critical and ferocity and condi dmg, are potent at effecting skills

condi duration on non damaging skills are generally not that usefull, due to mob resistances, extremely short durations, or the fact that team can put a lot of them out when coordinated.

all the other stats basically deal with dmg mitigation passively, and effect no skills at all.

so basically the disconnect here, is that usually you pick gear to enhance your chosen playstyle, in this game, only a few sets enhance your playstyle, and of those sets, ones that dont enhance dps, are pretty ineffective comparably at enhancing their playstyles.

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Posted by: VodCom.6924

VodCom.6924

1. Fiery greatsword
2. Ice bow
3. Reflecting fully projectile-based bosses

#1, the fiery noobsword can literally be removed from the game and I would be jumping for joy, #2 needs to be nerfed because if #1 is removed people will just spam more #2, and #3 is simply a case of bosses having weak mechanics.

I agree partially with that.

  1. - I don’t think that FGS should be remove completely. The weapon is only OP when you can stack in the wall and use skill 4 that do massive amount of dmg. Two easy way to deal with that would be to decrease the amount of dmg of the skill 4 or increase his cooldown. 10sec is crazy low for an attack that powerful. Of there is downside. Increase the cooldown and you decrease the mobility that FGS give to the ele. Decrease the dmg of the line, and its become a useless skill when us outside the wall. But in the end, i woudn’t be mad if they nerf it because is so powerful right now.

Give unstrippable retaliation on some bosses in each path and enough hp so that the retal can fully tick in. Expect some people to be surprized and the FGS to be toned down.

Did you try to FGS the Ginvra the butcher in Hotw ?

Alternatively you can give bosses some block skills he uses when he detects the FGS fields or other short duration high damage fields.

Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

You and I seem to be of similar mind, but perhaps there is a language barrier issue at hand. Then again, perhaps I am not being the clearest. My husband regularly gripes at me about it.

I’ll say it again though. I do not feel zerker gear is the problem. I am not asking for it to be nerfed.

Perhaps it would have been better to say that zerker gear simply helps to highlight symptoms of underlying problems in the game and the disparities between established roles? shrug

Ya maybe

The thing is. The role exits in the game. Not only they exist, but they also exits for the gear. I’ll classified like this :

Direct Damage : Power, Precision, Ferocity
Damage over time : Condition Damage, Precision, Condition Duration
Support : Healing Power, Boons Duration, Condition Duration
Survivability : Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power

These are true role, but represent the major direction of your character into a specific role. I can be a tanky/support, I can be a dps/support, i can be a tank/dps, i can be full DPS, etc.

All 4 of these ’’direction’’ for the lack of a better word, are in a pretty good shape in PvP. But when it come to PvE, there is some specific things that make some of those useless.

- Surviability in PvE is ok if you ask me. They are there only for a little breathing room or a safety net if you are learning or aren’t that good with active defence.
- Damage over time is broken for several reason : can damage object, don’t receive as much bonus from a build (think damage modifiers which are really powerful for direct damage build), the cap limit their use in group settings, lack of a full dps version of zerker for condi (Condi dmg, precision, condi duration or Condi dmg, precision, power or Condi dmg, power, condi duration). All of those limitation make condi build a really poor choise for most PvE situation (exempt for solo).
- For support its even worst. Healing Power scale so badly, that its useless. But its a tricky thing to balance because you don’t want healer neither. Condi Duration and Boons duration are a joke right now. Not because they are not powerful, but because of how poorly they are implemented. Who would take a full Giver’s armor in PvE? Not only it only give you 6% boons duration, but you also need to take toughness and healing power.

I want to see a Necro with condition duration for weakness, I want to see a elementalist with boons duration for might, I want to see a thief with condition duration for vulnerability, etc. This is the kind of support gear that could be useful.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

- I don’t think that FGS should be remove completely. The weapon is only OP when you can stack in the wall and use skill 4 that do massive amount of dmg.

“only” when you have walls around you almost all the time.

it’s a skill-less, overpowered weapon that literally needs to be outright removed from the game. I did both TA paths I think yesterday, we had no eles. No conjures. No noob fgs stacking. And bloody hell it felt good. No stupid conjures making jokes out of the fights, we actually had to dodge Malrona, we 4-manned Leurent, again with no 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4 and then I dodged too early on the nightmare tree and went down lel.

ANet are trying to improve the skill of players in this game – as long as this weapon exists in its current state, that’s going to be … challenging.

- I don’t agree on the Ice bow. Only 1 skill is really powerful on that thing. So, ya it crazy powerful againt big target (burrows, boss, etc), but its a niche things. I’m not using my ice bow all the time and when I do, I use it for a really short period of time. Its a great dmg burst, but its doesn’t make any content trivial (except AC burrow).

And “only” 1 skill is crazy powerful on fgs. If FGS was removed from the game we’d literally just go to spamming ice bows. it’s a boring ele-stacking meta which is no better than the old warrior stacking meta. get rid of conjures and you’ll actually have a reason to take other classes than “however many eles we can pile on while still keeping the run smooth”.

- Of course if the enemy is only launching projectile, its a bad thing. You put a wall of reflection and that’s it. That’s totally a design flaw in some of the encounter of the game. But they should really retract on the ‘’some projectile are reflect, but some or not’’ mentality that they started recently.

of course. don’t remove reflects, just give bosses with projectiles melee attacks as well.

exhibit #1 – lupicus

Give unstrippable retaliation on some bosses in each path and enough hp so that the retal can fully tick in. Expect some people to be surprized and the FGS to be toned down.

Except that’s a bad idea since it will just hard-counter low-hp classes as well. I can survive ginva on a warrior, but on a thief I can’t even pistol whip to proc signet of malice, retal just eats me alive no matter what I do.

Did you try to FGS the Ginvra the butcher in Hotw ?

yes, you kill the retal turret, then 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4 him to death.

Alternatively you can give bosses some block skills he uses when he detects the FGS fields or other short duration high damage fields.

if I recall correctly, mobs moved out of dangerous aoes at one point and the amount of crying was so immense anet just patched it out. so no, let’s not do that, there’s already enough crying on these forums.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

Might as well remove ele’s then.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Staff builds, LH builds, I think sc/f is the might stacking set (derp, don’t have an ele, someone correct me)

They’re all extremely good DPS or dps packed with support. Just not stupidly overpowered like bows and fiery noobswords are.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

Might as well remove ele’s then.

Ele’s don’t need FGS to excel in dungeons. They still have top of the line DPS and group utility without it.
What’s next? Nerf blinds and kick out Guards?

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

Ah forgive me if I thought perma staff 2 wasnt that far off from cheese land. Forgive my ignorance but I thought phalanx had pretty much replaced ele in might stacking land bar prestacking.

Staff builds,* LH builds*, I think sc/f is the might stacking set (derp, don’t have an ele, someone correct me)

They’re all extremely good DPS or dps packed with support. Just not stupidly overpowered like bows and fiery noobswords are.

it’s a boring ele-stacking meta which is no better than the old warrior stacking meta. get rid of conjures and you’ll actually have a reason to take other classes than “however many eles we can pile on while still keeping the run smooth”.

Pretty sure LH is conjure lightning hammer aka a conjure. And as per https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/The-Ele-Meta-Dungeon-Speed-Clears/first

Every last one of the build has either LH or FGS for use in it.

Ele’s don’t need FGS to excel in dungeons. They still have top of the line DPS and group utility without it.
What’s next? Nerf blinds and kick out Guards?

No it would be
1. Remove wall of reflection
2. Nerf aegis

But then as I said I am ignorant to what would happen merely my thoughts.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Pretty sure LH is conjure lightning hammer aka a conjure. And as per https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/The-Ele-Meta-Dungeon-Speed-Clears/first
Every last one of the build has either LH or FGS for use in it.

ok allow me to rephrase

get rid of broken conjures (ice bow, fgs)

No it would be
1. Remove wall of reflection
2. Nerf aegis

not really. removing FGS is just removing something with a DPS which is completely out of line with everything in the game, same with ice bow.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Rather than get rid of them, I’d hope they could just tone them down.

FGS the rush needs fixing, we still have bearform that can substitute, lets fix that mechanic rather than just getting rid of stuff. Personally as a guard/mesmer a FGS is awesome just for movement but I’m sure it could be useful for more than just rush right? something in there? if not maybe boost the other moves while they nerf the rushes.

Ice Bow, I like it a lot on my ele, not for cycling the 4 skill to trivialize content, but as a fun strategic addition to my rotation. I drop the bow, fire my 4, then swap back to the normal setup. Then assuming no one has picked it up I can pick up the bow I dropped and hit 4 again after the refresh is up and then swap right back, giving me 2 uses for every bow if no one else uses it. I think it’d be a shame to lose that when we don’t have to.

My thought is make the bow4 take over half the charges, so you only get one of them per bow. That way you’re not restricted on reuse if you’re the solo ele using both bows in series in a rotation. If the damage is still too much, tone that down, but leave it worthwhile because again, it’s a fun strategy.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

No need to remove.

Each damage tic is a charge + reduce damage. Rush against the wall once and the fgs is gone.

The blast finishers in LH is rather out of place as nothing else can blast that much either and aoe blind at the same time.

if fgs and ib are removed LH will take its place thus LH would have to removed also.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

I’m pretty sure a weapon blasting a fire field on low cooldown (I suppose every auto chain is ~2.4s) isn’t on the same level as another weapon which has made it possible to score a 7-second lupicus kill, so that’s a pretty weak argument.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

Rather than get rid of them, I’d hope they could just tone them down.

FGS the rush needs fixing, we still have bearform that can substitute, lets fix that mechanic rather than just getting rid of stuff. Personally as a guard/mesmer a FGS is awesome just for movement but I’m sure it could be useful for more than just rush right? something in there? if not maybe boost the other moves while they nerf the rushes.

Ice Bow, I like it a lot on my ele, not for cycling the 4 skill to trivialize content, but as a fun strategic addition to my rotation. I drop the bow, fire my 4, then swap back to the normal setup. Then assuming no one has picked it up I can pick up the bow I dropped and hit 4 again after the refresh is up and then swap right back, giving me 2 uses for every bow if no one else uses it. I think it’d be a shame to lose that when we don’t have to.

My thought is make the bow4 take over half the charges, so you only get one of them per bow. That way you’re not restricted on reuse if you’re the solo ele using both bows in series in a rotation. If the damage is still too much, tone that down, but leave it worthwhile because again, it’s a fun strategy.

One thought I had to adjust FGS was rather that letting you run it into a wall for ALL the Deeps! Make it so if a movement skill hits a wall, it will have a rebound effect. So FGS 4 would have a neat function for it’s intended use and if someone tries to abuse the nature of its flame trail, they’ll launch themselves out of the stack.

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

random,

would just requiring a target for FgS 4 to work change it up?

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

I’m pretty sure a weapon blasting a fire field on low cooldown (I suppose every auto chain is ~2.4s) isn’t on the same level as another weapon which has made it possible to score a 7-second lupicus kill, so that’s a pretty weak argument.

Especially when you consider that a warrior phalanx build is basically doing the same thing, but without possible interruption due to the poor field selection system.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

random,

would just requiring a target for FgS 4 to work change it up?

That alone would fix all the rush skills I think

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Rather than get rid of them, I’d hope they could just tone them down.

FGS the rush needs fixing, we still have bearform that can substitute, lets fix that mechanic rather than just getting rid of stuff. Personally as a guard/mesmer a FGS is awesome just for movement but I’m sure it could be useful for more than just rush right? something in there? if not maybe boost the other moves while they nerf the rushes.

Ice Bow, I like it a lot on my ele, not for cycling the 4 skill to trivialize content, but as a fun strategic addition to my rotation. I drop the bow, fire my 4, then swap back to the normal setup. Then assuming no one has picked it up I can pick up the bow I dropped and hit 4 again after the refresh is up and then swap right back, giving me 2 uses for every bow if no one else uses it. I think it’d be a shame to lose that when we don’t have to.

My thought is make the bow4 take over half the charges, so you only get one of them per bow. That way you’re not restricted on reuse if you’re the solo ele using both bows in series in a rotation. If the damage is still too much, tone that down, but leave it worthwhile because again, it’s a fun strategy.

One thought I had to adjust FGS was rather that letting you run it into a wall for ALL the Deeps! Make it so if a movement skill hits a wall, it will have a rebound effect. So FGS 4 would have a neat function for it’s intended use and if someone tries to abuse the nature of its flame trail, they’ll launch themselves out of the stack.

That could have some interesting implications if carried over to more attack types. Think Whirlwind into a wall? Dodging into a wall? No more dodging in place you’d have to make some movement, meaning that it may be better to leave things in the field so you can dodge through them to remain in melee as to not trigger some of the NPCs range attacks.

Interesting thought for sure.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

No im not talking about simply blasting a fire field im going on what you said. the fgs/ib dps ability is out of whack with the rest of dps abilities in game.

So is LH’s blast/blind/dps in one skill ability. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the sb 2? for the thief.

actually this is a lost arguement for me that I shall bow out of

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

They should also remove warriors, too easy to play. Guardians as well.

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Posted by: VodCom.6924

VodCom.6924

They should also remove warriors, too easy to play. Guardians as well.

Let’s say it’s a topic as old as gw2. People were very surprized to see that the glassiest warrior was as tanky as the tankiest ele while having the dps of a glass canon ele.

Why such thing can exist is quite beyond me, but I do not really mind. There is allways an easier class in every RPG after all.

Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone

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Posted by: Brutal Arts.6307

Brutal Arts.6307

They should also remove warriors, too easy to play. Guardians as well.

the glassiest warrior was as tanky as the tankiest ele while having the dps of a glass canon ele.

What am I reading? Where am I?

You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.

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Posted by: Wintyr.1780

Wintyr.1780

Simple Fix Remover all Berserker Gear from the game

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Simple Fix Remover all Berserker Gear from the game

puts on assassins
Forum:“REMOVE ASSASSINS”

puts on Zealot or knight
Forum:“REMOVE ZEALOT OR KNIGHT”



puts on clerics
Forum:“REMOVE GEAR”

What is my point? There will always be an optimal. You either accept that or don’t but it doesn’t stop it from being true.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: DonQuack.9025

DonQuack.9025

Naked only runs!

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

I doubt they’ll accept it till the feel that they aren’t being treated as second rate players. Speedrunners may not notice, but on these forums at least, they’ve developed a rep for being snobs who pick on players who post their Just for fun builds. For a lot of players, this game wasn’t supposed to be about measuring up to someone else’s standard, so when they see what they perceive as meta players forcing them or others to conform to the meta, they get defensive.
It’s pretty much a Social Backlash Phenomenon.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

I doubt they’ll accept it till the feel that they aren’t being treated as second rate players. Speedrunners may not notice, but on these forums at least, they’ve developed a rep for being snobs who pick on players who post their Just for fun builds. For a lot of players, this game wasn’t supposed to be about measuring up to someone else’s standard, so when they see what they perceive as meta players forcing them or others to conform to the meta, they get defensive.
It’s pretty much a Social Backlash Phenomenon.

In a lot of those cases it’s people posting builds asking “what do you guys think?”

Are people supposed to just cheer and say “good job”? Or are they supposed to actually make constructive comments? Meta builds aren’t meta because the people who made them are snobs, they’re meta because if you really sit down and think about it they work incredibly well and min/maxed to fit the situations.

Not to say the community isn’t pretty harsh a lot of the time… personally it’s about the worst I’ve seen, but I’ve been sheltered I guess (never played WoW really). Just saying, that situation it seems like that’s what they’re asking for is all…

(edited by Jerus.4350)

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

And how is the fact that the amount of value you bring to your party as a player is not tied to your gear an issue?

Except that your gear affects your dps, and the majority of players seem to be under the impression that if you aren’t pumping out the max dps (of which a component is having zerker gear) you’re not as valuable as someone who is.

Let’s put it another way – if one mesmer is wearing zerker and one is wearing valk, considering it is harder to survive as zerker then by rule of thumb the zerker mesmer should be a better player since he’s viable as zerker.

The question then becomes why would I take the less skilled mesmer in my party? And he is less skilled because:

1)He needs more tanky gear in his gamestyle.
2)He’s not interested enough to know what the meta is in order to get with the meta.

Should be. Doesn’t necessarily mean he is. But based on your own response, you’re going to pick that zerker, whether you know that be true or otherwise because he’s wearing zerker.

What you’re proposing – support and CC tied into gear instead of being equally effective for everyone is not a good idea.
How will it change things? You’ll run 4 zerker and 1 Cleric’s for boons and reflects. How is that not a meta.
There will simply be a new meta for support and cc players and anyone who isn’t wearing the " support and cc gear" will be considered a noob and kicked.

The current situation in which you’re not forced to take certain gear to accomplish a task is far better than the one in which you’re forced to.

I’ve made several suggestions, beyond tying support and cc to gear. Although, considering zerks is designed to make you create more damage per second, why should there not also be gear that extends your boon length, or makes your boons more effective? i can see how gear and control might not work, but support is more than just ‘healing’ and could have sets that make you more effective. obviously some balancing would be necessary, but shouldn’t the two work in tandem to make things better rather than just rolling dps gear and being ‘sufficient’? I’m just trying to add some depth, to mix it up. Something beyond “learn to dodge, gear up in zerkers, call it good.” Don’t you people get bored?

There will simply be a new meta for support and cc players and anyone who isn’t wearing the " support and cc gear" will be considered a noob and kicked.

You mean kind of like the “must be 80, zerk only, ping gear, must have 10k AP” crap we deal with now? I don’t see how shaking it up is necessarily a bad thing.

1. Maximum dps is optimal for speed clears. That’s what I like to play and that’s what most players like to play.
To say people who don’t go zerker are discriminated because they’re not wearing zerker is wrong. They’re discriminated against because they’re not part of the meta.
Newbies are discriminated against as well. Some classes are too.

2.I’m going to pick the zerk mesmer because I have no other means of discerning player skill.
If we had an appropriate skill meter ( outside of zerker and AP) to keep the newbies away I would use that.

3.the " must be 80, zerk gear, 10k ap" are EASY to obtain for everyone.
Zerk gear is 20 gold away on the TP. level 80 is a given for any difficult content, AP is not so much of a requirement but even that can be farmed fast ( a friend went from 5-6k ap to around 10 in maybe over a month or a bit more).

It’s a much better situation than:
“LFG 1xclass a gear z, 1xclass b gear x, 1x class c gear y " and so on.

The current system is much less restrictive than what you propose.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Anet is not actively encouraging zerker but is enforcing a policy where you can’t spam 1 while afk for 30 minutes and win. That’s just not going to work.

These bosses you mention ( except teq) have unique mechanics that have to be learned and used. Yes there’s a timer on it because if there wasn’t players couldn’t fail.

The mechanic would be useless since you could bypass it by running in, hitting it a bit, dying, repeat. So you’ve bypassed the mechanic supposed to punish you if you’re not engaging correctly.

If you don’t play the encounter right you will die. If you die you don’t dps. If you don’t dps the timer will run down and you will lose.

Anet isn’t encouraging zerker, Anet is enforcing mechanics by punishing players that fail to adhere to them.

Wurms phase 2 burn phase, Six Mins Knightfall, Crown Pavillion has “unique mechanic”? Seriously?

All you need to do is stack in one spot, stack mights, wear highest dps gear, bring as many FGS ele as you can, and kill bosses in VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
(2 mins, 6 mins, and 7 mins)

How can this not be just another hardcapped DPS check?
Many people can’t win these because they do not spec enough in their dps, and you can’t control them or change them whatsoever.

Timer does not make an encounter harder, it’s just an easy way for Anet to increase
difficulty without adjusting anything or make versatile mechanics.
There’re numerous ways to increase difficulty, such as defending certain objective, dead people cannot rev, capping certain objectives together, etc.
However, Anet does not know how to implant these type of mechanic and makes it hard enough to poses any challenge to our zergish type of play-style, so they just add a timer so they don’t have to do anything to their contents.

Also, my previous posts already provided numerous ways to increase the encounter difficulty. Husk by itself is a good example, but there need to be more enemies with similar mechanic and infest them all around Tyria.

Yes they do have mechanics. Especially the pavilion.

Maybe you’ve noticed that mechanic called the Turret that made one of the bosses become the bane of pugs.

Or other mechanics that demand constant reflects or player interaction.
If you’re saying these encounters don’t have mechanics you’re just plain wrong.

BOOM BOOM Something is one of the easiest bosses to deal with..
A pure dps check that requires no strategy.

Destroyer, Charr Shaman , Centaur, Pirates, and Ogre are all harder…

Also Crown Pavillion only has this strategy of killing the bosses together to make it easier, it’s not really a strategy but a time and dps check. If all groups are not made of random PUGs who probably does minimal damage, but a full group of Zerkers, then the content suddenly becomes quite easy. (Except the ogre one, that’s the type of bosses I’ve been encouraging Anet to add, a boss that has reflect damage mechanic)

Of course some bosses need to have reflector and stuff to make it easier, but that has nothing to do with stats you need. (You still need Zerker for the most part)

Then why did Boom Boom CRUSH pugs to the point it had to be nerfed? because it’s that easy and simple?

Mechanics are aimed at the players – obviously it was too hard for some of them.

The point is that the encounters incorporate a dps check to discourage people being bad at it and still winning.

It goes : you’re good ?you deal the damage and live and get rewards.
You’re bad and you die and are forced to lose dps – not passing that check.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

I doubt they’ll accept it till the feel that they aren’t being treated as second rate players. Speedrunners may not notice, but on these forums at least, they’ve developed a rep for being snobs who pick on players who post their Just for fun builds. For a lot of players, this game wasn’t supposed to be about measuring up to someone else’s standard, so when they see what they perceive as meta players forcing them or others to conform to the meta, they get defensive.
It’s pretty much a Social Backlash Phenomenon.

So these players should seek to play among themselves. Nobody is forcing them anywhere.

The bottom line is : you want to get with the cool kids – start being cool or leave it alone. You can’t ask someone to make them “uncool” so you don’t feel left out.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

So I’ve been taking my condition warrior in to Arah pugs today and haven’t been kicked once.

Can someone tell me where this “zerker or gtfo” mentality is, because I’m not seeing it.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

So I’ve been taking my condition warrior in to Arah pugs today and haven’t been kicked once.

Can someone tell me where this “zerker or gtfo” mentality is, because I’m not seeing it.

In the hearts and minds of those who hate zerkers!

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

cof p1 7min vs cof p1 30min, which one will you choose?

Whichever has the friendly players, whether it’s the shortest or longest doesn’t matter one bit to me. It’s not as “getting it done” faster necessarily means something, though of course that’s also a valid approach that appeals to some, but not all. Hope you understand that not 100% of players want to be as efficient as they can, and not necessarily due to lack of skill.

On topic, this game doesn’t rely on Berserker’s ever. Some content is actually easier on said gear if you know it well, but that doesn’t mean the other gear is not usable/effective for other playstyles (yes, I TOTALLY disagree with the idea that gear is not related to playstyle, a doctrine which as kitten as I know has never been stated y ANet, but by players trying to push their own agendas, or copying/pasting what they read on the internet.) However, not all gear combos will be as efficient-that doesn’t mean that the game “relies” on Berserker’s, because not all players should strive for efficiency or only wish to play GW2 as if only speedruns mattered and were “endgame.”

Play as you wish, whether Berserker’s or Shaman’s, I honestly don’t (nor should I) care. Just don’t look down on others for playing the game differently than you do. It’s also a given that you shouldn’t join players’ groups that aren’t compatible with the way you play the game. I don’t mind efficiency myself, as long as it’s not so extreme as to totally strangulate a player’s individuality (which is why I avoid speedruns for the most part-I do not enjoy blindly following metas or videos on how GW2 is “supposed to be played.”)

One myth about Berserker’s, however, is that if you don’t use said gear, you must suck. at GW2. :P This is silly reasoning. Some people just prefer to use something else for whatever reason, and they may still be skilled, know “how to dodge”, etc. Remember, not all players make maximum efficiency their “endgame”, there is more than black or white, and many ways to skin a cat.

I don’t think Berserker’s is “bad for the game”. Content could be more varied, yes. But the gear itself is innocent, and not all speedrun players are toxic, despite the vocal, jerk lot that damage those nice players’ reputation.

And finally, whatever you see on the LFG has nothing to do with the game “relying” on Berserker’s. You will always see those ads, because generally they take a bit longer to fill their groups, and efficient-minded players will never go away from the game. Not all of those “zerk” players are necessarily good, mind you, but they seem to follow the mantra that the gear will hopefully make the player. Regardless, it’s THEIR choice and way of playing the game. If you don’t care about speedrunning, form your own groups, and just plain ignore speedruns-win-win for both of you.

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

I doubt they’ll accept it till the feel that they aren’t being treated as second rate players. Speedrunners may not notice, but on these forums at least, they’ve developed a rep for being snobs who pick on players who post their Just for fun builds. For a lot of players, this game wasn’t supposed to be about measuring up to someone else’s standard, so when they see what they perceive as meta players forcing them or others to conform to the meta, they get defensive.
It’s pretty much a Social Backlash Phenomenon.

So these players should seek to play among themselves. Nobody is forcing them anywhere.

The bottom line is : you want to get with the cool kids – start being cool or leave it alone. You can’t ask someone to make them “uncool” so you don’t feel left out.

His/her comment is true, though. You should all really tone down insulting people for not being efficient, or when they post “terribad” builds (silly term, BTW), just ignore-they may not be thinking about speedruning? Only people who WANT to play efficiently should be judged with that standard. And not playing efficiently is by no means a necessary standard of mediocrity.

I think that the problem is not being elite players, but being elitist. You can be the greatest speedrunner in GW2 without any need to insult others or trying to correct “the error of their ways”-what if they just don’t see the game as you do? Efficient players should play together, yes, but it’s none of their business to tell others they are playing GW2 wrong if they simply don’t share the same goals. Insulting others will just increase the quite unfair hate Berserker’s gear usually gets around these parts.

Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

And how is the fact that the amount of value you bring to your party as a player is not tied to your gear an issue?

Except that your gear affects your dps, and the majority of players seem to be under the impression that if you aren’t pumping out the max dps (of which a component is having zerker gear) you’re not as valuable as someone who is.

Let’s put it another way – if one mesmer is wearing zerker and one is wearing valk, considering it is harder to survive as zerker then by rule of thumb the zerker mesmer should be a better player since he’s viable as zerker.

The question then becomes why would I take the less skilled mesmer in my party? And he is less skilled because:

1)He needs more tanky gear in his gamestyle.
2)He’s not interested enough to know what the meta is in order to get with the meta.

Should be. Doesn’t necessarily mean he is. But based on your own response, you’re going to pick that zerker, whether you know that be true or otherwise because he’s wearing zerker.

What you’re proposing – support and CC tied into gear instead of being equally effective for everyone is not a good idea.
How will it change things? You’ll run 4 zerker and 1 Cleric’s for boons and reflects. How is that not a meta.
There will simply be a new meta for support and cc players and anyone who isn’t wearing the " support and cc gear" will be considered a noob and kicked.

The current situation in which you’re not forced to take certain gear to accomplish a task is far better than the one in which you’re forced to.

I’ve made several suggestions, beyond tying support and cc to gear. Although, considering zerks is designed to make you create more damage per second, why should there not also be gear that extends your boon length, or makes your boons more effective? i can see how gear and control might not work, but support is more than just ‘healing’ and could have sets that make you more effective. obviously some balancing would be necessary, but shouldn’t the two work in tandem to make things better rather than just rolling dps gear and being ‘sufficient’? I’m just trying to add some depth, to mix it up. Something beyond “learn to dodge, gear up in zerkers, call it good.” Don’t you people get bored?

There will simply be a new meta for support and cc players and anyone who isn’t wearing the " support and cc gear" will be considered a noob and kicked.

You mean kind of like the “must be 80, zerk only, ping gear, must have 10k AP” crap we deal with now? I don’t see how shaking it up is necessarily a bad thing.

1. Maximum dps is optimal for speed clears. That’s what I like to play and that’s what most players like to play.
To say people who don’t go zerker are discriminated because they’re not wearing zerker is wrong. They’re discriminated against because they’re not part of the meta.
Newbies are discriminated against as well. Some classes are too.

2.I’m going to pick the zerk mesmer because I have no other means of discerning player skill.
If we had an appropriate skill meter ( outside of zerker and AP) to keep the newbies away I would use that.

3.the " must be 80, zerk gear, 10k ap" are EASY to obtain for everyone.
Zerk gear is 20 gold away on the TP. level 80 is a given for any difficult content, AP is not so much of a requirement but even that can be farmed fast ( a friend went from 5-6k ap to around 10 in maybe over a month or a bit more).

It’s a much better situation than:
“LFG 1xclass a gear z, 1xclass b gear x, 1x class c gear y " and so on.

The current system is much less restrictive than what you propose.

Why is not being part of the meta a VALID reason to discriminate against, or belittle a player? That’s my problem. Speedrunning is valid. Bullying others is not (and it goes both ways.)

Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Does that mean that discrimination is when you don’t want to play with certain people?

Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Why is not being part of the meta a VALID reason to discriminate against, or belittle a player? That’s my problem. Speedrunning is valid. Bullying others is not (and it goes both ways.)

People feel discriminated for a lot of reasons. Simply being kicked from a party is considered by a lot of players discriminatory.

In truth that’s not the case. If you join a group that needs “x gear” and you don’t have it why did you join in the first place?

These kinds of situations have made efficiency driven people very angry towards casual/newbie/play how you want people. That and being tired of trying to explain things.

Players that want to play ’ their own way ’ and not the meta way should group together.
They should not join meta groups and then complain on the forums that they’re being kicked the moment it becomes apparent they’re not playing meta builds.

Personally I never bully or bash people. Just kick them and that’s it. Clean and simple.
Other people are different, but the point is people will bully and discriminate less experienced players over anything. The zerker meta is just catching all the flak.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

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Posted by: Saint.5647

Saint.5647

3. spider queen drops poison in melee

of course, this goes both ways. groups with bad dps will end up ranging the boss with bows, groups with zerker will end up bursting down the boss but most or all of them dying at the end. in both cases, it’s now more time lost. continued whining of zerkers being OP will only lead to more waste of time, for all groups regardless of their gear.

Not really. This only holds true if you stick to the old paradigm of “don’t move out of her melee.” Now she does her AoE regardless so you can stack in the same spot but actually move. It’s simple. You don’t have to suicide kill her, you just have to change your strategy a bit by asking yourself what has been changed and what does it mean. Also, ask yourself who is your daddy and what does he do.

Just chill at her backside and fear her before she can AoE. Or Any CC really. She will die just as quickly.

One True God
Fashion Forward!
Guild Wars Dinosaur

Does the game still relly to much on zerkers?

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

People feel discriminated for a lot of reasons. Simply being kicked from a party is considered by a lot of players discriminatory.

In truth that’s not the case. If you join a group that needs “x gear” and you don’t have it why did you join in the first place?

These kinds of situations have made efficiency driven people very angry towards casual/newbie/play how you want people. That and being tired of trying to explain things.

Players that want to play ’ their own way ’ and not the meta way should group together.
They should not join meta groups and then complain on the forums that they’re being kicked the moment it becomes apparent they’re not playing meta builds.

Personally I never bully or bash people. Just kick them and that’s it. Clean and simple.
Other people are different, but the point is people will bully and discriminate less experienced players over anything. The zerker meta is just catching all the flak.

It’s only natural when some speedrunners bash others for not being like them. That’s how it’s perceived. “If you don’t play our way, you don’t belong”. Note that the problem then is not the speedrun, but the snobbery attached to these types of players. They could just decide not to care about those who aren’t as efficient, instead of attacking them and treating them as “inferior” (which is to be honest, quite silly, and in line with the silly epithets “unique snowflake”/“casual carebear”/“playhowyouwants”.)

Some people don’t want to be taught meta-way, so don’t preach meta to those who don’t care. It’s like preaching divinity to an atheist. “I am doing them a favor, so they learn to play!” doesn’t work, because to them you are clearly just being annoying. Being “exasperated” towards those that don’t play your way it’s really a wasted effort (the same would be true about players hating on others JUST for using Berserker’s gear.)

And to be fair, I don’t agree with the anti-speedrun hatred that is often encountered in these forums. These are more often than not reactions against previous abusive behavior, but being a troll to a jerk is hardly the best use of our time. There’s no point in countering speedruns, because many people like to do them, and who are we to dictate to them how they should play GW2?

The only problem is when the actual toxicity is fostered by the game. I don’t think it’s totally the case as of now, because we don’t have any gearscores (there’s no need either), nor are we really forced to use Berserker’s (or any gear for that matter, ascended or otherwise) for any content, as was implied in the title of the thread (no offense to the OP.)

Berserker’s is only currently “required” for speedruns, period. It’s not required to enjoy content or be a great GW2 player-even though some may feel that not using Berserker’s=being a “bad” that “doesn’t know how to dodge”, which is just elitism, a generalization, and not based on facts. Using Berserker’s does not grant “elite status”, nor using Cleric’s warrants “noob” status. But if you like speedrunning, of course Berserker’s will make more sense to you-even though no content is forcing you to use it.

(If you don’t use Berserker’s, don’t feel “left out” or inferior. Are you enjoying the game? That’s what matters, not what others think about you for you playing this or that way. ANet has never stated that following the speedclear meta is key to enjoying GW2-some people don’t even do Dungeons and have fun their way.)

I actually mean no offense to Harper either. It’s just that these issues so easily become “us vs them” with seemingly intelligent comments conveniently used to foster each side, rather than focusing on the truth of the matter, which is we should not at all care in the first place how a person chooses to play GW2. If you are not compatible, don’t play together. There’s no need for the immature comments, and “competitiveness” is no excuse to bully anyone.

(I do believe you, Harper, that you wouldn’t kick “just for fun”, and though I do see kicking as discriminatory, I would kick a kitten my group, so I have my own intolerance against intolerance. I for one don’t kick people based on Professions, and feel like leaving the group when I see it. But kicking others because they are trolling your group is not true discrimination. To practice kicking, however, may be too kitten newcomers that know no better, and can only help perpetuate speed-meta hate, even though it’s not its actual fault. Not saying that you are a “known kicker”, nor is implying it my intention. I also agree it’s a “jerk human” issue, and the meta and Berserker’s gear has little to do with it-jerks would be jerks and discriminatory even if Cleric’s was the meta.)