Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Amroth.2170

Amroth.2170

Was posted on reddit about an hour ago: http://i.imgur.com/Tu3G4R2.png

This was taken from KDB Daewoo Securities forecast. Any other explanations for why they’re expecting such a large revenue bump midway through 2015? I wonder if this ties into Gaile’s hint about news related to trait updates being available by Q2 2015.

I dunno, but I’ll remain cautiously optimistic.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

it’s either a typo (maybe it has to be 19?), or they’re making something spectacular.

Wildstar predictions makes me sad though.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Liz.1497

Liz.1497

this is honestly the most convincing hint at an expansion I’ve seen so far.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

this is honestly the most convincing hint at an expansion I’ve seen so far.

Yes unless it’s a hoax there is no way they can expect to quadruple their revenues by sticking to the current formula of living story.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: niea.7504

niea.7504

Probably mounts. Or capes.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Hylgeriak.8250

Hylgeriak.8250

Or they make Quaggan a playable race. CooooOOOoooo!

Kyrgyz Manas – Gandara[EU]

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

There is already post touching on this report here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Sneak-Peek-PAX-South/page/8#post4681482.

Regardless, i’m sure it’s about as accurate as any of our personal speculation. Invest in NCsoft, go go go!

[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Farzo.8410

Farzo.8410

Or they make Quaggan a playable race. CooooOOOoooo!

Ugh, no.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Zera Allimatti.2541

Zera Allimatti.2541

There is already post touching on this report here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Sneak-Peek-PAX-South/page/8#post4681482.

Regardless, i’m sure it’s about as accurate as any of our personal speculation. Invest in NCsoft, go go go!

Share prices were hovering close to $200 a share last I checked. Unless you have tens of thousands of dollars to invest, it might not be a good idea. Buying one or two shares at a couple hundred dollars each wont give you much gains even if the share prices do increase by, say, 10%. Volume is key for returns. Not trying to discourage anyone from investing (by all means, invest if you really want to), just throwing out information from my own experiences in investing.

Give us more GW 1 weapon and armor skins, please. COPY/PASTE ALREADY!!!!

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: CMM.6712

CMM.6712

Or they make Quaggan a playable race. CooooOOOoooo!

Ugh, no.

So very very very very much THIS.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

Wait so 50€ expansion? ehhh…..

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: xDudisx.5914

xDudisx.5914

Was posted on reddit about an hour ago: http://i.imgur.com/Tu3G4R2.png

This was taken from KDB Daewoo Securities forecast. Any other explanations for why they’re expecting such a large revenue bump midway through 2015? I wonder if this ties into Gaile’s hint about news related to trait updates being available by Q2 2015.

I dunno, but I’ll remain cautiously optimistic.

Can you give us the source? Hard to believe in just a picture. Might be someone just trolling.

Searching on google we get conflicting info contradicting each other and your picture.

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/download/190571.pdf?attachmentId=190571

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/board/message/view.do?messageId=204384&messageNumber=664&messageCategoryId=0&startId=zzzzz~&startPage=1&curPage=1&searchType=2&searchText=&searchStartYear=2014&searchStartMonth=01&searchStartDay=09&searchEndYear=2015&searchEndMonth=01&searchEndDay=09&lastPageFlag=&categoryId=76

Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Bellizare.5816

Bellizare.5816

Probably mounts. Or capes.

Or mounts with capes?

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Lunar Sunset.8742

Lunar Sunset.8742

Wooooooow, those predictions are interesting, I’m sad to see Wildstar but ecstatic for GW2.

Sunset
50/50 GWAMM x3
I quit how I want

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: CMM.6712

CMM.6712

Probably mounts. Or capes.

Or mounts with capes?

Mounts with capes, dueling and dropping precursors and legendaries to only those who already have them.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Amroth.2170

Amroth.2170

Was posted on reddit about an hour ago: http://i.imgur.com/Tu3G4R2.png

This was taken from KDB Daewoo Securities forecast. Any other explanations for why they’re expecting such a large revenue bump midway through 2015? I wonder if this ties into Gaile’s hint about news related to trait updates being available by Q2 2015.

I dunno, but I’ll remain cautiously optimistic.

Can you give us the source? Hard to believe in just a picture. Might be someone just trolling.

Searching on google we get conflicting info contradicting each other and your picture.

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/download/190571.pdf?attachmentId=190571

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/board/message/view.do?messageId=204384&messageNumber=664&messageCategoryId=0&startId=zzzzz~&startPage=1&curPage=1&searchType=2&searchText=&searchStartYear=2014&searchStartMonth=01&searchStartDay=09&searchEndYear=2015&searchEndMonth=01&searchEndDay=09&lastPageFlag=&categoryId=76

Source: http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/download/192028.pdf?attachmentId=192028

Keep in mind this is an investment group and not NCSoft itself. What information they have to base these projections off of I am not sure.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

unless those guys have inside information. They know as much as we know.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Galphar.3901

Galphar.3901

Well, unless they fix the Traits system they will just be right back in the same boat in Q4 with people leaving again.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: nGumball.1283

nGumball.1283

There is already post touching on this report here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Sneak-Peek-PAX-South/page/8#post4681482.

Regardless, i’m sure it’s about as accurate as any of our personal speculation. Invest in NCsoft, go go go!

Their speculation isn’t the same ours, no. Invesment companies tend to have connections in the industry to be able to promote reliable predictions. Yeah, it is not the same as an announcement from Ncsoft, however, an invesment company won’t just go there and release such info if they don’t have hints. They release such predictions, people invest. This is an industry and money is on the line. It is far from personal personal speculation that is usually based upon vague information that is hardly considered facts.

@laokoko: I don’t know about this group, but most invesment companies have inside information otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to ’’predict’’.

Eitherway, if they await such a huge spike in Q3, it means the announcement is probably coming this month.

(edited by nGumball.1283)

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Not sure though, how much earnings NC Soft gets out of the China release and if those profits are declared under GW2 or not.

Might as well have something planned for the chinese market during Q3 or they plan to release in a whole new region.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

it’s either a typo (maybe it has to be 19?), or they’re making something spectacular.

Wildstar predictions makes me sad though.

And if you had bothered reading the assumption was 2 million copies of a 50 dollar/euro expansion sold in 3rd and 4th quarter with whatever uptick in cash shop sales returning/new players generate.

Edit: Also, sort of beat Vlad Morbius by a few hours in that thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Sneak-Peek-PAX-South/4680565

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

(edited by Behellagh.1468)

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

There is already post touching on this report here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Sneak-Peek-PAX-South/page/8#post4681482.

Regardless, i’m sure it’s about as accurate as any of our personal speculation. Invest in NCsoft, go go go!

Their speculation isn’t the same ours, no. Invesment companies tend to have connections in the industry to be able to promote reliable predictions. Yeah, it is not the same as an announcement from Ncsoft, however, an invesment company won’t just go there and release such info if they don’t have hints. They release such predictions, people invest. This is an industry and money is on the line. It is far from personal personal speculation that is usually based upon vague information that is hardly considered facts.

@laokoko: I don’t know about this group, but most invesment companies have inside information otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to ’’predict’’.

Eitherway, if they await such a huge spike in Q3, it means the announcement is probably coming this month.

Is that even legal? I mean to have inside information. Else they are just predicting just like us.

having a lot of recent information isn’t the same as inside information. THey might be perdicting base on the hint ncsoft make.

(edited by laokoko.7403)

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Vlad Morbius.1759

Vlad Morbius.1759

Here is something to keep in mind, every other time something out of the ordinary and almost wishful has been put out there on other sites, such as Reddit, it’s usually squashed, these rumours haven’t been at all so that tells me where there’s smoke there’s fire.
Too many coincidences, I’ll put my money on an announcement at Pax with the crux of the framework being LS coupled with expansions to tie all that in which is very revolutionary as far as the industry goes. Also expect an announcement that in between these expansions the LS will continue to move things forward, this alone will separate them from all others in the MMO industry.

Vini, Vidi, Vici, Viridis…I came, I saw, I conquered…I got a green??

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Just remember that this is a securities company that once hyped that NCSOFT stock could get to 600,000 KrW a share due to Blade & Soul doing as well at launch as AION did. It’s currently 193,000 KrW a share. So they are a bit better than throwing runes, reading tea leaves or examining entrails with their predictions.

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/download/81904.pdf?attachmentId=81904

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Kentaine.4692

Kentaine.4692

Expansion… nah…

Releasing servers in South America, Africa, Australia and Antarctica… yeah… that’s where that bump in sales is coming from. Sadly, I don’t think their prediction will pan out… especially Antarctica. Every penguin I’ve ever talked to says they hate GW2 because of the way they portray the Tengu.

If it is an expansion, though, I’d probably buy it.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Black Frog.9274

Black Frog.9274

Their speculation isn’t the same ours, no. Invesment companies tend to have connections in the industry to be able to promote reliable predictions.

That’s patently illegal. If they had those connections, they sure as hell wouldn’t announce something on that basis. That’s how SEC investigations start.

I Like to Run Randomly Around the Map

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: xDudisx.5914

xDudisx.5914

Expansion… nah…

Releasing servers in South America, Africa, Australia and Antarctica… yeah… that’s where that bump in sales is coming from. Sadly, I don’t think their prediction will pan out… especially Antarctica. Every penguin I’ve ever talked to says they hate GW2 because of the way they portray the Tengu.

If it is an expansion, though, I’d probably buy it.

Well the link is saying expansion:

“Also, in 2015, NCsoft is expected to roll out an expansion pack for Guild Wars 2, which
has sold more than 3mn copies since its release in 2012 in the US and Europe. We
assumed in our 2015 earnings estimates Guild Wars 2 expansion pack sales of around
2mn copies (US$50 per copy), and note that the expansion packs for Guild Wars 1 have
sold almost as much as the original game in the year of their release. "

Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: myself.2143

myself.2143

Poor Wildstar. A game that’s stuck in the past and doomed with no future.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

I am quite sure they are in fact working on an expansion. No idea about the release though.

Edit: I guess they could be working on another game as well.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Expansion… nah…

Releasing servers in South America, Africa, Australia and Antarctica… yeah… that’s where that bump in sales is coming from. Sadly, I don’t think their prediction will pan out… especially Antarctica. Every penguin I’ve ever talked to says they hate GW2 because of the way they portray the Tengu.

If it is an expansion, though, I’d probably buy it.

This is wrong. All the penguins I know love Guild Wars 2. You’ve probably befriended some puffins who claimed to be penguins.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ardenwolfe.8590

Ardenwolfe.8590

New class or classes. Players coming back to try the new classes. Leveling new toons. Maybe in a new continent. But I doubt it’ll be a traditional expansion.

They might force us to buy the new classes instead.

Marvel Heroes Online does this with each new hero.

Gone to Reddit.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

NEW CLASS TO PLAY AND NEW SKILLS TO USE!!!!

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Rangerdeity.5847

Rangerdeity.5847

it’s either a typo (maybe it has to be 19?), or they’re making something spectacular.

Wildstar predictions makes me sad though.

This when i look at wildstar i just start scream about it being the chosen one and how it was supposed to surpass WoW then i realize nobody cares and i just wait for overwatch to quench my thirst for something new.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Paffus Piffus.9430

Paffus Piffus.9430

Anyone doubting the release of an expansion for this game needs to check in with reality. GW had more than one expansion and they all sold very well. GW 2 has sold a lot of copies, and is doing very well. Both games are made primarily to make money. An expansion would sell very well and make lots of money. Why anyone doubts there will be one is beyond me, I know this is the Internet where people speculate about crazy stuff, but this is natural progression and business sense, not rocket science.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Yukiatsuruko.3784

Yukiatsuruko.3784

http://south.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/guild-wars-2-beyond-the-point-of-no-return

There is absolutely no way the president and game director of Anet reserved 90 minutes at the main theater of PAX South to announce Living World Season 3. It has to be an expansion, or we’re in for some serious cringe.

Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Kentaine.4692

Kentaine.4692

New class or classes. Players coming back to try the new classes. Leveling new toons. Maybe in a new continent. But I doubt it’ll be a traditional expansion.

They might force us to buy the new classes instead.

Marvel Heroes Online does this with each new hero.

I sure hope not… the difference is Marvel Heroes is completely “free” if you want it to be. You download it for free, you play it for free, and you can even unlock those heroes for free (200-600 token grinding depending on the hero).

If they’re going to copy MHO they’d better have a viable alternative in game to earn that class at least a months worth of casual playing and maybe a weeks worth of grinding. However, if the class was locked behind gemstore AND an expansion came out to introduce lore for it I’d probably leave MMOs all together and never look back.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Skyline.3480

Skyline.3480

Join ArenaNet president and co-founder Mike O’Brien and Guild Wars 2 game director Colin Johanson for an exclusive sneak peek at what’s next in Guild Wars 2 and be among the first to hear how we’re setting up a new framework for how an MMO can grow its universe. The Living World was just the beginning.

Judging by their choice of words I would completely rule out a traditional expansion. It sounds more like they’ve come up with a revamped LS model.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

it’s either a typo (maybe it has to be 19?), or they’re making something spectacular.

Wildstar predictions makes me sad though.

This when i look at wildstar i just start scream about it being the chosen one and how it was supposed to surpass WoW then i realize nobody cares and i just wait for overwatch to quench my thirst for something new.

I didn’t see anyone say it would surpass WoW. Carbine was founded by ex-WoW guys but I didn’t see any reputable news article or even Carbine spin that tale. WoW is to MMOs as Microsoft is to business/home OS market. They are beyond competing with, all anyone is trying to be is #2.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: uknortherner.2670

uknortherner.2670

Wow, another pointless speculation thread that some players will use to generate fake hype to beat Anet with…

I stole a special snowflake’s future by exercising my democratic right to vote.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

Wildstar gets what it deserves for the dated solutions and most of all horrible fps issues in a game in which gameplay is very dependant on smooth framerate. Lesson to be learned for future mmo releases.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Tumla.7231

Tumla.7231

Living story season 3 here we go !!!! (after a little break of a couple of months of course).

Keep Running [Kr] – Speed run dungeons and fractal guild

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Wildstar gets what it deserves for the dated solutions and most of all horrible fps issues in a game in which gameplay is very dependant on smooth framerate. Lesson to be learned for future mmo releases.

one thing that I fear is that there will never be a game like it. Finally there was a difficult MMO on the market aaaaand it died. Yeah… So much for variety.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Beldin.5498

Beldin.5498

Wildstar gets what it deserves for the dated solutions and most of all horrible fps issues in a game in which gameplay is very dependant on smooth framerate. Lesson to be learned for future mmo releases.

one thing that I fear is that there will never be a game like it. Finally there was a difficult MMO on the market aaaaand it died. Yeah… So much for variety.

It just proved once more that not a lot people really want to have overly hard content
and that raiders and elitists are simply a minority even if they don’t want to believe
it because they are overly represented at most forums.

Also @ANet .. take that at a hint that EQ-Style Raids is the last thing we need to “save” the game.

EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

Wildstar gets what it deserves for the dated solutions and most of all horrible fps issues in a game in which gameplay is very dependant on smooth framerate. Lesson to be learned for future mmo releases.

one thing that I fear is that there will never be a game like it. Finally there was a difficult MMO on the market aaaaand it died. Yeah… So much for variety.

It just proved once more that not a lot people really want to have overly hard content
and that raiders and elitists are simply a minority even if they don’t want to believe
it because they are overly represented at most forums.

Also @ANet .. take that at a hint that EQ-Style Raids is the last thing we need to “save” the game.

I loved the difficulty of that game… it was the FPS, crafting, and super overtuned unnecessary grind that drove me away from it.

If they had made it convenient yet difficult then I would probably still be playing it.

On Topic: These are just baseless predictions, It would be the same as if I said the same thing. If they do have knowledge that we don’t then they will be in jail very shortly.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Seabreeze.8437

Seabreeze.8437

I’m interested to see what becomes of this.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Feirlista Xv.1425

Feirlista Xv.1425

We have seen this posted a hundred times here and on reddit. it a prediction by an investment ferm nothing else, they don’t have any inside information they just anolize and predict this is not a reliable sorce. I can see it now when there is no expantion pack this year all the mentaly imiture peoples that have fallen for this hype will come on the forum and cry and whine “Anet you promissed and expantion”. This is why game devs can’t be as open as they would like to be.

Opinions are like ______ everyone has one I could
put the correct term in but not everyone has kittens

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Seabreeze.8437

Seabreeze.8437

We have seen this posted a hundred times here and on reddit. it a prediction by an investment ferm nothing else, they don’t have any inside information they just anolize and predict this is not a reliable sorce. I can see it now when there is no expantion pack this year all the mentaly imiture peoples that have fallen for this hype will come on the forum and cry and whine “Anet you promissed and expantion”. This is why game devs can’t be as open as they would like to be.

I’m not fully expecting an expansion, per-say, but it certainly looks like Anet has something substantial planned if there’s such a huge jump in revenue predicted. I HIGHLY doubt they would expect that kind of an increase from an announcement for Living Story: Season 3, given it’s lackluster delivery and mixed opinions from the player base.

To quote someone earlier, I will remain cautiously optimistic, but I am indeed intrigued, nonetheless.

Also… your spelling is abysmal.

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Celtus.8456

Celtus.8456

I guess we’ll find out soonish. Don’t get your hopes too high though.

A boxed expansion would probably help sales a lot though (though I’m not sure what they’d put in it…). I remember when I was shopping for the holidays I didn’t even see Gw2 on the shelves at major retailers like WalMart or Target.

Josre
Zulu Ox Tactics [zulu]

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Black Frog.9274

Black Frog.9274

Even if it’s an expansion, what will you be paying for? Another opportunity to repeat the cycle? Will the expansion just be more things, races, and places? Will anything that needs to get fixed ever get fixed? Or will every last bit of the mechanics be the same? And if they’ve got fixes for the mechanics, why aren’t they deploying them now?

I Like to Run Randomly Around the Map

Earnings forecast hints at expansion Q3 2015?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

http://www.kdbdw.com/bbs/download/192028.pdf?attachmentId=192028

full forecast. They even say “expansion expected 2015 Q3”. I wonder why.