Egocentrism

Egocentrism

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Posted by: KKaelyn.5904

KKaelyn.5904

Egocentric

Egocentrism is characterized by preoccupation with one’s own internal world. Egocentrics regard themselves and their own opinions or interests as being the most important or valid. To them, self-relevant information is seen to be more important in shaping one’s judgments than are thoughts about others and other-relevant information.1 Egocentric people are unable to fully understand or to cope with other people’s opinions and the fact that reality can be different from what they are ready to accept. (Psychology 101)

This is to say that I am tired of peoples argument that include all the player base, or even refuse to see that others can have a far different experience. I do see that for what ever reason others do not like the game, I will not say go play another game yet I wonder why you don’t if you hate GW2/HOT and where it is headed. I how ever am happy. Do I find things un-fun in the game. Yes. Always have always will. Yet others find those very things I dislike as fun and I have always understood that. Hence I don’t beg for things I do not like to be removed or changed. Yes, there are things that might come out not right at first but constructive criticism not negative is a far better way to convey it to Arenanet. I have been playing since GW1 and love the game. Yes, I have also struggled with the game at times or get frustrated but eventually find a way around those problems. So yes, criticize yet please keep it civil and please remember we are all not you, nor hold the same opinions.

(edited by KKaelyn.5904)

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Posted by: seabhac.5346

seabhac.5346

is it ‘ego’ or ‘ethno’?

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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

Ethnocentrism is quite a different thing to egocentrism, and quite different to what you’re writing about. So I’m not sure why you chucked that in as if it were interchangeable?

It’s also very worth pointing out that people on an MMO forum not wanting to listen to other’s opinions does not make the egocentrics. If you’re studying psychology that’s probably something you should get a handle out. A singular characteristic does not a diagnosis make.

People get excited about the prospect of video games being how they want them to be. It’s very easy to assume that one’s own ideas will make everything amazing and that anyone else’s ideas are therefore in direct opposition. People are also generally less caring of other’s opinions in online situations. The internet gives people a voice with no culpability. So yeah, people on the forums can be a little bit self-oriented, but that doesn’t make them egocentrics.

I’d also really like to point out that there’s nothing wrong with people complaining or critiquing how the game is. It is really important for people to be able to voice issues or concerns, and also to be able to make suggestions. The forum exists partly for those very reasons. Yes there is a lot of non-constructive criticism that goes on here, but that doesn’t necessarily invalidate it either. Not everyone has been taught how to make their criticism constructive, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to speak up. It’s up to the developers to decide what’s constructive and what they’re going to listen to.

People complaining about things shouldn’t have an impact on your own enjoyment of the game. If it’s bothering you then I’d suggest avoiding the forums :/

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Posted by: Dashingsteel.3410

Dashingsteel.3410

Yes, I have seen those who are pro-HoT and anti-HoT claim that they speak for everyone. It is annoying and a weak attempt at strengthening an argument.

I agree that anyone who hates the game should probably find another game that they can enjoy.

I really like gw2 but don’t like the direction they went with HoT. Any criticism I level at the game is not based on hatred of the game. There are aspects of the game that I really don’t like and I want the company to know it. I also enjoy a lively debate.

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Posted by: Redenaz.8631

Redenaz.8631

I…don’t really understand this thread.

It’s one thing to say, “That’s your opinion, but I don’t feel that way,” when someone complains/praises something, but if you’re not talking about anything specific, what’s the point?

~The Storyteller – Elementalist – Jade Quarry~

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Posted by: Squee.7829

Squee.7829

That’s the r/iamverysmartway of saying “Not everyone is having a bad time here!”
But it is a valid point. There are a lot of “This is why everyone does X” posts, when nine times out of ten it’s not what everyone does. It’s like a small handful of people with a complaint that just assumes everyone else thinks the same way.

Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.

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Posted by: Dashingsteel.3410

Dashingsteel.3410

It is not just the people with complaints that assume everyone else thinks the same way. I’ve seen plenty of people who like HoT assume the same thing….. for example I see this one a lot “Only people on this forum are players who don’t like HoT while the majority of people are enjoying the expansion and don’t have time to be visiting the forum”

I paraphrased a little but it usually goes something like that

(edited by Dashingsteel.3410)

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Posted by: Mokk.2397

Mokk.2397

Ethnocentrism is the belief of superiority is one’s personal ethnic group.
Ego centrism is having or regarding the self or the individual as the center of all things.
Think he means ego but I get what he’s taking about.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

O.K. Guess I’ll have to be “that guy”. Excuse me while I whip out my ego.

The reason why it is everyone’s “claims” about HoT being good or not included everyone elses opinion, or appear to do so, is because those claims do not cater to opinions at all. They are the discussion of facts revolving around HoT, and the fact that you disagree means nothing to someone else.

While you may be used to a world that is full of “to each their own” and “live and let live”, the real world isn’t like that. The real world actually cares about what works, and what doesn’t. The real world is objective. So, when players discuss what the mistakes are with HoT, they aren’t talking about what is “bad for them”. They’re talking about what is bad, period. If you feel like that you are constantly being looped in with their discussions, then maybe it is your own ego that is to blame. When people disagree, they voice those disagreements, and get into a discussion where (hopefully) something productive will emerge.

There are many standards for which to judge the content of HoT:

#1: Teleologic. That is, what it is designed to do. If something is designed to do one thing (say, the megaserver system is designed to group like players together on maps), and it fails to accomplish this objective (random kicking and gathering onto empty worlds, random undisplayed map closing, forcing guild shards to close at full population, etc), then it is bad design. Not “bad design for me”. It is bad design, period.

#2: Technical Merit. This is what separates good art from bad art. This is the way the pieces come together and compliment each other. Issues like having voice acting that varies wildly in tone between lines, storylines that are too predictable, plot threads that are nonsensical or end abruptly, dissonance between gameplay and narrative, etc. When the tonal flow of the story is abrupt, jarring, or so narrowly focused that it leaves people unsatisfied, it isn’t “bad for me”. It is bad, period.

#3: Basic function. This is the ability for the game system to actually run. This is issues like bugs and memory overload problems, which would cause people’s game’s to crash near the end of event chains. If the game doesn’t function properly, in that pressing space doesn’t deploy the glider or the game can’t load a map that it is meant to load, then it is bad. Not “bad for me”. Bad, period.

There’s probably more, too. But, think of it from a basic standpoint: If you like something, you should be able to explain why it is you like it, and what is good about something. Your opinions don’t bampf into existence from nowhere.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Asrat.2645

Asrat.2645

Giving feedback, even purely negative feedback is fine. Even centering that feedback exclusively around your own opinion is ok, since, if a sufficient amount of people give their personal opinion, the whole will be a good average of what the players actually want.
And even if people keep thinking that they represent the vast majority, even though they dont, their self-centeredness(?) will still be obvious for every unrelated observer.
You are also by far not the only one who enjoys the game. But nobody goes to the forums, unless there is (seems to be) a problem to be talked about.
Just like you created this very post in order to point out something that you dont agree with.
Most of the forum posts that you can take remotely serious hold a lot of good points, and provide valuable feedback with actual suggestions on how to solve a problem. The very best of authors are even open to suggestions themselves. The others suffer from dunning-kruger and shallt not be payed to much attention to.

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Posted by: Esquilax.3491

Esquilax.3491

That’s funny, I always assumed by that definition every person alive would fit that “egocentric” label then. The only reason someone would bother to conform to someone else’s opinion is if it’s either enforced by social or society laws, or benefit them personally in some way.

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Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

Giving feedback, even purely negative feedback is fine. Even centering that feedback exclusively around your own opinion is ok, since, if a sufficient amount of people give their personal opinion, the whole will be a good average of what the players actually want.
And even if people keep thinking that they represent the vast majority, even though they dont, their self-centeredness(?) will still be obvious for every unrelated observer.
You are also by far not the only one who enjoys the game. But nobody goes to the forums, unless there is (seems to be) a problem to be talked about.
Just like you created this very post in order to point out something that you dont agree with.
Most of the forum posts that you can take remotely serious hold a lot of good points, and provide valuable feedback with actual suggestions on how to solve a problem. The very best of authors are even open to suggestions themselves. The others suffer from dunning-kruger and shallt not be payed to much attention to.

I believe some people frequent the forums without ‘a problem to be talked about’. As in-game, the population is made up of a whole spectrum of players.

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Posted by: Shademehr.1397

Shademehr.1397

This game, more than any other I’ve played, seems to have a large amount of people that fall into these mindsets:

1. “I’m not happy unless you are playing the game the way I think you should be playing the game so if I’m not happy, then you shouldn’t be happy either.”
2. Entitlement. Entitlement. Entitlement.

For my part, I’ve purchased the base game and I’ve purchased HoT. I’ve also tossed in a few gem card purchases over the years that I’ve played. Lets just pretend I’ve spent $500 on this game. I think I have well over 5,000 hours of entertainment from GW2. A movie at the theater costs around $10-12 just for two hours of entertainment. I’d say that GW2 has given me a darn fine return on my investment.

Are there things I absolutely despise about this game? Sure. But the pros SIGNIFICANTLY outweigh the cons and I’m generally pretty happy with GW2.

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

First, to address what I feel is the reason for this thread. I agree that posting an opinion as an opinion, not fact, is the correct thing to do. I also agree that making sweeping statements isn’t appropriate, for each of us players represents ourselves, not the community at large.

Saying “I don’t like this and others agree” is different than “Everyone agrees…” or “We feel…” I sense that’s the point the OP is trying to make, and I concur: Each forum member is an individual and should post in ways that reflect that, not adopting the mantle of spokesperson for the entire community.

Except… The title is “Egocentrism” and the heading on the OP is “Ethnocentrism.” KKaelyn — can you fix that, please?

Giving feedback, even purely negative feedback is fine. Even centering that feedback exclusively around your own opinion is ok, since, if a sufficient amount of people give their personal opinion, the whole will be a good average of what the players actually want.

As i’ve found out numerous times, the mods disagree with the negative feedback. You’re more likely to be infracted for having a post with negative feedback than one that brown noses.

The forum code of conduct states that all criticisms need to be constructive. If a criticism is constructive and is phrased to be clearly recognised as such then the mods shouldn’t have a leg to stand on in the event of an infraction/removal. Any non-constructive criticism they’re technically in the right to infract people for or remove for the forums.

Thank you for saying this. I don’t often get into moderation policies, but this seems a good time to say something on that subject. Negative feedback — “I don’t like this” — generally is not removed, but sadly, it contributes next to nothing to a discussion. “I don’t like this because [reasons]” is better. Best of all is a post like this: “I don’t like this because [reasons] and I think it would be improved by [suggestions].” That last example is the gold standard of forum posts, when expressed without expletives, name-calling, and other anti-social content, of course. Most forum members — the vast majority — understand this, and they post accordingly.

Our moderators don’t go through the forums looking for posts to remove. Their job is to try to keep things on an even keel, to maintain an acceptable climate so that everyone feels comfortable posting and/or reading. Our objective is to retain as much as possible while keeping threads on topic and acceptable (not offensive) to forum members, which include members, readers, and devs.

To be clear, “unconstructive” and “negative” are not the same thing, and no one is asked to post only positive posts; they are asked to post constructive posts.

The Forum Code of Conduct is very long. I hope to rewrite it soon. But in the meantime, this sums up our philosophy:

  • Keep it clean
  • Keep it civil
  • Stay on topic
  • Be responsible
  • Share your knowledge
  • Report posts for removal if they violate these standards

For all the words that follow in that document , the core value is this simple: The forum is a place for civil conversation between people with a common interest.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

gaile has outlined well what to post, but not so much what not to post. the problem is when this:

“I don’t like this because [reasons]”

becomes instead:

+/- a few kittens, paragraphs, and typos:

“i kittening hate this kittening kitten kitten [censor dodge] cuz [dev] is a kittening kittenty piece of [censor dodge] and anet needs to kittening fire some kittenes and spend money on [something full of kittens] instead”

which is obviously garbage and gets deleted, but is reposted, deleted again, and then the OP complains that anet deletes negative feedback and the mods are fascists in a 3rd repost resulting in a 3rd infraction, prolly a ban, and deleted again.

and yes, people do this. over 3 years, ive watched and laughed and had tons of “this thread was moved to subforum trashcan” notifications and laughed again.

keep it civil and your criticism wont be deleted. but the people who need to understand this walk into the forum angry with no posting history and post vitriol without ever reading the forums or code of conduct or even taking a look at whats on the front page of the relevant sub and get kicked out with a ban.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Previous

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

gaile has outlined well what to post, but not so much what not to post. the problem is when this:

“I don’t like this because [reasons]”

becomes instead:

+/- a few kittens, paragraphs, and typos:

“i kittening hate this kittening kitten kitten [censor dodge] cuz [dev] is a kittening kittenty piece of [censor dodge] and anet needs to kittening fire some kittenes and spend money on [something full of kittens] instead”

which is obviously garbage and gets deleted, but is reposted, deleted again, and then the OP complains that anet deletes negative feedback and the mods are fascists in a 3rd repost resulting in a 3rd infraction, prolly a ban, and deleted again.

and yes, people do this. over 3 years, ive watched and laughed and had tons of “this thread was moved to subforum trashcan” notifications and laughed again.

keep it civil and your criticism wont be deleted. but the people who need to understand this walk into the forum angry with no posting history and post vitriol without ever reading the forums or code of conduct or even taking a look at whats on the front page of the relevant sub and get kicked out with a ban.

Yes. This.

People are free to say “I really don’t like this design” but not “I really don’t like this design, the designer, their significant other, or their little dog, too.”

;)

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: KKaelyn.5904

KKaelyn.5904

First off sorry for the misused word at the top, somehow it got auto corrected and I did not catch it.

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Posted by: Palador.2170

Palador.2170

I don’t often get into moderation policies,

Perhaps it’s time you start doing so. I mean, if you’re not dealing with this, then who is?

Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.

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Posted by: KKaelyn.5904

KKaelyn.5904

Also, I was not posting about not criticizing something just the manner of how it is done. And that those that respond to that posting debating that point have a right to their opinion and point of view also with out being called names or flamed. Also, I believe that If something is not working as it should, bugs and such, I believe that Arenanet has a place to post and report those problems. Separate from the regular forums.

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Posted by: Arikyali.5804

Arikyali.5804

So…many….blocks of texts….

o.o;;

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Previous

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

Well, this was unfortunate. We just had to remove several posts. Please please read carefully if you’re going to quote someone! We just removed a post that contained a really offensive word. We also had to remove three posts that quoted that post, because that resulted in Offensive Word times 4.

We’re not trying to squelch the discussion, but we’re not going to leave up a word that is truly offensive, by pretty much anyone’s measure… or at least the measure of people who appreciate the effort to keep the forums clean. I will try to get the word added to the filter, but at the present time, removal is our only viable option.

By the way: Moderators and administrators don’t randomly go into posts to remove an offensive word. Doing that could raise a whole lot of concerns, even tin-foil-hat theories that “the mods changed my text!” So each post pretty much lives or dies on its own content. (Note: We will alter a post if it contains personally-identifiable info, but that’s about it for moderator edits.)

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Previous

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

First off sorry for the misused word at the top, somehow it got auto corrected and I did not catch it.

Ah, thank you for that clarification. I was confused, too.

I don’t often get into moderation policies,

Perhaps it’s time you start doing so. I mean, if you’re not dealing with this, then who is?

Perhaps that was poorly phrased, and if so, I’m sorry. What I meant is I don’t often “get into” as in “discuss” or “outline” or “relay policy to forum members through a forum post.”

I get into the actual review and enactment of moderator policy on a daily basis. Thanks.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

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Posted by: Conncept.7638

Conncept.7638

Gaile Gray.6029:
First, to address what I feel is the reason for this thread. I agree that posting an opinion as an opinion, not fact, is the correct thing to do. I also agree that making sweeping statements isn’t appropriate, for each of us players represents ourselves, not the community at large.

Problem is on these forums you invariably get throngs of ‘clever’ posters attacking any opinion as ‘illogical’ or whatever other buzzword they’ve latched on to. Clearly insulting peoples intelligence but getting no punishment because it strictly isn’t an insult, but a descriptive of their argument, though used with full intention to insult intelligence and character of the poster.

And worse, these types of posters frequently get moderator support for their actions simply because of the subject matter.

Heck try posting a thread in favor of mounts or open world PvP if you don’t believe me. You could post bloody fully functional code and the thread would still within minutes be filled with spamming, sarcastic remarks, and round after round of the most vitriolic attacks on the character of anyone who dares share a supportive opinion of the suggestion. And if you report any of these attacks, nothing happens, I know, I’ve reported many such posts which were incontestably against the rules. Entire threads of hundreds of posts of nothing but mockery and insults and general mean-spiritedness, totally ignored. Seemingly for no reason other than it has just become the norm to treat those of certain opinions like second class citizens on these forums, to the point that even the moderators turn a blind eye to it.

(edited by Conncept.7638)

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Posted by: Deedrick.4372

Deedrick.4372

Well if you don’t like the rules of the forum... then don’t use them. If you choose to use them, then you choose to abide by what ever the moderators do. I love the persecuted act though, I am sure the moderators stalk and punish some more than others.

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Neural.1824

Neural.1824

Gaile Gray.6029:
First, to address what I feel is the reason for this thread. I agree that posting an opinion as an opinion, not fact, is the correct thing to do. I also agree that making sweeping statements isn’t appropriate, for each of us players represents ourselves, not the community at large.

Problem is on these forums you invariably get throngs of ‘clever’ posters attacking any opinion as ‘illogical’ or whatever other buzzword they’ve latched on to. Clearly insulting peoples intelligence but getting no punishment because it strictly isn’t an insult, but a descriptive of their argument, though used with full intention to insult intelligence and character of the poster.

And worse, these types of posters frequently get moderator support for their actions simply because of the subject matter.

Heck try posting a thread in favor of mounts or open world PvP if you don’t believe me. You could post bloody fully functional code and the thread would still within minutes be filled with spamming, sarcastic remarks, and round after round of the most vitriolic attacks on the character of anyone who dares share a supportive opinion of the suggestion. And if you report any of these attacks, nothing happens, I know, I’ve reported many such posts which were incontestably against the rules. Entire threads of hundreds of posts of nothing but mockery and insults and general mean-spiritedness, totally ignored. Seemingly for no reason other than it has just become the norm to treat those of certain opinions like second class citizens on these forums, to the point that even the moderators turn a blind eye to it.

+1 again. Thank you for fixing and reposting it.

Where are my gem sales? I want gem sales! Nerf EVERYTHING!

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

My inbox begs to disagree with this.

As it clearly states

Your post in Egocentrism was infracted by a moderator:

Moderator Note:
Your post in “Egocentrism” has been removed because it quoted a post that contains a highly-offensive word. You are welcome to share your thoughts, but please use care in what you are quoting, because to keep the forums reasonable we do remove quotes of comments that themselves were removed for offensiveness.

Hope that clears up this non-sense.

They do issue infractions is the TL;DR and if they aren’t then they definitely need much clearer auto-gen messages, or just human intervention would be a nice civil start.

That said, the original point of moderating double standards existing is evident as it is seen on the first page of the forums. Satire, does not produce discourse, especially when it’s about topics that otherwise get locked for not having anything of discourse, nor being related to GW2.

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Posted by: Roxanne.6140

Roxanne.6140

Gaile Gray.6029:
First, to address what I feel is the reason for this thread. I agree that posting an opinion as an opinion, not fact, is the correct thing to do. I also agree that making sweeping statements isn’t appropriate, for each of us players represents ourselves, not the community at large.

Problem is on these forums you invariably get throngs of ‘clever’ posters attacking any opinion as ‘illogical’ or whatever other buzzword they’ve latched on to. Clearly insulting peoples intelligence but getting no punishment because it strictly isn’t an insult, but a descriptive of their argument, though used with full intention to insult intelligence and character of the poster.

And worse, these types of posters frequently get moderator support for their actions simply because of the subject matter.

Heck try posting a thread in favor of mounts or open world PvP if you don’t believe me. You could post bloody fully functional code and the thread would still within minutes be filled with spamming, sarcastic remarks, and round after round of the most vitriolic attacks on the character of anyone who dares share a supportive opinion of the suggestion. And if you report any of these attacks, nothing happens, I know, I’ve reported many such posts which were incontestably against the rules. Entire threads of hundreds of posts of nothing but mockery and insults and general mean-spiritedness, totally ignored. Seemingly for no reason other than it has just become the norm to treat those of certain opinions like second class citizens on these forums, to the point that even the moderators turn a blind eye to it.

What if whatever the OP posted was indeed so ridiculous that it makes whatever logical response to it seem sarcastic. Maybe OP posted, oh I want to PvP in the blighting towers in dragon stand. How do you respond to that kind of post in a way that is not sarcastic nor derogatory. I’ll slap myself if I needed to respond to such posts in a sugary coated politically correct response like honey dear you know killing players during a boss fight is just not civil or sweetie pls leave ppl alone in ‘x’ and ‘x’ situation because it is rude.


gaem not made for mi
===========

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

My inbox begs to disagree with this.

As it clearly states

Your post in Egocentrism was infracted by a moderator:

Moderator Note:
Your post in “Egocentrism” has been removed because it quoted a post that contains a highly-offensive word. You are welcome to share your thoughts, but please use care in what you are quoting, because to keep the forums reasonable we do remove quotes of comments that themselves were removed for offensiveness.

Hope that clears up this non-sense.

They do issue infractions is the TL;DR and if they aren’t then they definitely need much clearer auto-gen messages, or just human intervention would be a nice civil start.

That said, the original point of moderating double standards existing is evident as it is seen on the first page of the forums. Satire, does not produce discourse, especially when it’s about topics that otherwise get locked for not having anything of discourse, nor being related to GW2.

dude.
it tells you when you get an infraction point.

trust me.
no infraction point there.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

…snip…

Treat others as you would wish to be treated. If you wish to be insulted, insult others. If you wish to have fingers pointed at you, point fingers at others. If you wish to have a rational discussion, then discuss things rationally.

It’s not always going to work because you are the only person you have control over, but it’s a start. Getting angry and rage-posting isn’t going to help anyone.

~EW

Egocentrism

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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Conncept: Thank you for reposting.

Those who quoted: Please read the message that you were sent. You did not receive points or penalty. The term “infracted” only means that action was taken. But as you were told by the human being who wrote the message to you, the post was removed as a “housekeeping” measure, and there was no impact on your forum account whatsoever.

About moderation:

I don’t believe our moderators ever “turn a blind eye” on infractable offenses. They try to be evenhanded, fair, and reasonable when reviewing and, when necessary, moderating posts. The team is greatly assisted by player reports, so if you see issues, please report them. If you have questions, you also can flag the post to ask the question. Please report wisely and fairly and not in reaction to a difference of opinion or a case of personal antipathy.

I review each and every appeal that comes in. I may not personally handle each one, but I see every one. And believe me, proper moderation is a very important subject to me and to us as a company. We’re more than willing to fix, adjust, amend, or adapt, when there is reason to do so.

When a moderator errs, we address it. We might remove or lower points or reinstate a post. But the number of reversals is relatively small, and an appeal does not not necessarily result in change. In most cases, the original action was correct, although you or others may disagree with the decision.

Claims of inaccurate moderation on the forums generally are wrong. People forget, or misrepresent, what they said. Or, they may disagree that what they posted deserved removal or points, and they blame the moderators first and ask questions later.

Back when Guild Wars 2 released, Mike O’Brien charged me with a task: Review the cries of ‘foul play’ and “unfair CS actions” and “improper ‘bans’” and see if CS is making errors in blocking accounts as a result of offensive in-game chat. So say someone posted “I only called someone a chicken and I was banned!” I pulled up chat logs and spotted a string of swear words that would make a sailor blush. (Sorry, sailors, not impugning your characters here — <3 ya all! ) The end result is the forum thread with claims that CS was banning people unjustly became one of the most amusing forum threads ever, and in 99.9% of cases, the cries of injustice were 100% wrong.

If you have an issue with the moderation of a post that you made, then write us at Forums@Arena.Net. But if your intention is to discuss why [that forum member] was not infracted and you were, let’s not even go there. Worry about you and how your issue was addressed, your posts were appraised. I promise you we will in turn look at your situation and do our best to address any errors in how the post was handled.

What to do about [that forum member]? Report them and let the team do their jobs. We want to do the right thing, so please trust that we will look into the matter with care and with our forum culture as a focus. (What you might say on Forum X may not be right here, and vice-versa.) We may view what you reported differently than you would like, but a review of any value starts not with throwing around accusations but with a report, and it continues with letting an unbiased judge review the entire situation. Every forum member deserves a fair shake, and we try to give it with an eye to keeping the place pleasant for everyone.

Oh, last bit: For goodness sake, don’t try the “abuse by report” game, where you’re angry at the mod team and file a bunch of bogus reports, or where you don’t like another forum member and hope—in a throwback to preschool—that you can “get them in trouble with the teacher.”

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

Egocentrism

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Gaile. Do you think y’all can look at the auto messages from moderators, rethink the word infraction and not use it when it’s only thread clean up. To you it may mean action taken. To me it means the account was disciplined. So seeing a message that the account was infracted is confusing as it can mean nothing happened or it can mean your account was disciplined and it can take several readings through the message to parse it out.

For example, it took me several readings to figure this one out. I had trouble telling if it was a clean up only or a clean up and my account got a warning.


Your post in [name of thread deleted] was infracted by a moderator:

[Deleted Posts]

Moderator Note:
Removing post that quoted a moderated post. No points of penalty — just cleaning up the thread. Thanks.

This infraction serves only a warning. Additional infractions may award Infraction Points which can negatively affect your account. Infraction points may cause loss of privileges, including forum suspension.

Your message was deleted.

This is an automated message generated by an infraction given by a human moderator. If you believe you have received this infraction in error or wish to make an appeal, please send an e-mail to forums@arena.net.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)

Egocentrism

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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What if whatever the OP posted was indeed so ridiculous that it makes whatever logical response to it seem sarcastic. Maybe OP posted, oh I want to PvP in the blighting towers in dragon stand. How do you respond to that kind of post in a way that is not sarcastic nor derogatory. I’ll slap myself if I needed to respond to such posts in a sugary coated politically correct response like honey dear you know killing players during a boss fight is just not civil or sweetie pls leave ppl alone in ‘x’ and ‘x’ situation because it is rude.

If you think something is illogical, there’s no reason not to say that. Straight up: “I think this is illogical because [reasons].” Or even “This idea doesn’t make sense to me because it seems illogical.” The first is better than the second, but both state an honestly-held opinion and that’s ok.

Now, “This idea is illogical and your mother should be ashamed of giving birth to you” crosses the line, obviously. “Your suggestions are absurd” or “…dumb” or “…shockingly stupid” aren’t right.

I’m not suggesting political correctness, I’m requesting simple human respect. I happen to believe that anyone who’s smart enough to play our game and smart enough to join our forum community is smart enough to state an opinion without a flame. I hope you agree.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

Egocentrism

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Previous

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

…snip…

Treat others as you would wish to be treated. If you wish to be insulted, insult others. If you wish to have fingers pointed at you, point fingers at others. If you wish to have a rational discussion, then discuss things rationally.

It’s not always going to work because you are the only person you have control over, but it’s a start. Getting angry and rage-posting isn’t going to help anyone.

~EW

I would go with the first sentence and call it good: Treat others as you would wish to be treated. That says it all.

Gaile. Do you think y’all can look at the auto messages from moderators, rethink the word infraction and not use it when it’s only thread clean up. To you it may mean action taken. To me it means the account was disciplined. So seeing a message that the account was infracted is confusing as it can mean nothing happened or it can mean your account was disciplined and it can take several readings through the message to parse it out.

I would dearly love to do that. When I became team lead, that was my very first “ask.” But the darn things are “hard coded” and cannot be amended. I truly and intensely dislike the use of “infracted” when we’re talking about something that may be just a heads up. Heck, that kitteny message may appear even if we simply move a thread from one sub-forum to another!

Sorry, I vent. :-/

TL;dr: The messaging is poor and we can’t change it, I wish with all my heart that we could, but we’re stuck with those auto-messages at this time. We do our best to write personal and very clear messaging in the body, though.

Edit to add: Yes, I did write kitten, as in small cat.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

Egocentrism

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Odd that he gets notifications like that when I normally get something like the following:

Your post in (thread name) was removed because it quoted a post that was deleted by a moderator. This notification is intended only to inform you of why your post was removed. The removal does not result in any points of penalties and does not affect your forum account in any way.

That’s all that’s in the message. Why the difference?

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Posted by: ShiningSquirrel.3751

ShiningSquirrel.3751

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

Unfortunately this is not always true.

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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Odd that he gets notifications like that when I normally get something like the following:

Your post in (thread name) was removed because it quoted a post that was deleted by a moderator. This notification is intended only to inform you of why your post was removed. The removal does not result in any points of penalties and does not affect your forum account in any way.

That’s all that’s in the message. Why the difference?

It’s a procedural difference. There are two ways to remove a post, and although the core messaging is the same, there is other messaging around it in the one case, as you saw in JaFW’s example. Both result in removal; both result in appropriate core messaging as long as the moderator is sure to write it; both would not give points, as you can see. However, the message that JaFW received is actually the result of use of the better procedure because it retains more information in case of an appeal or questions.

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

Unfortunately this is not always true.

That is generally true. It is rare for someone to receive points for quoting a removed post. In those cases, it’s most likely that they are receiving points not for the removal but for what they said below the quoted content.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

Egocentrism

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: ShiningSquirrel.3751

ShiningSquirrel.3751

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

My inbox begs to disagree with this.

As it clearly states

Your post in Egocentrism was infracted by a moderator:

Moderator Note:
Your post in “Egocentrism” has been removed because it quoted a post that contains a highly-offensive word. You are welcome to share your thoughts, but please use care in what you are quoting, because to keep the forums reasonable we do remove quotes of comments that themselves were removed for offensiveness.

Hope that clears up this non-sense.

They do issue infractions is the TL;DR and if they aren’t then they definitely need much clearer auto-gen messages, or just human intervention would be a nice civil start.

That said, the original point of moderating double standards existing is evident as it is seen on the first page of the forums. Satire, does not produce discourse, especially when it’s about topics that otherwise get locked for not having anything of discourse, nor being related to GW2.

dude.
it tells you when you get an infraction point.

trust me.
no infraction point there.

Infractions have been given for quoting a deleted post in the past. Unfortunately we cannot speak of it without also having that post infracted as per forum rules.
I have had discussions with others in this thread about this very subject in the past and it is one of the primary reasons I stopped posting here. Also, you can also get infracted for saying something good about the game, not only something bad. See the thread below:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/support/Recent-interactions-with-support/first#post5723049

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

My inbox begs to disagree with this.

As it clearly states

Your post in Egocentrism was infracted by a moderator:

Moderator Note:
Your post in “Egocentrism” has been removed because it quoted a post that contains a highly-offensive word. You are welcome to share your thoughts, but please use care in what you are quoting, because to keep the forums reasonable we do remove quotes of comments that themselves were removed for offensiveness.

Hope that clears up this non-sense.

They do issue infractions is the TL;DR and if they aren’t then they definitely need much clearer auto-gen messages, or just human intervention would be a nice civil start.

That said, the original point of moderating double standards existing is evident as it is seen on the first page of the forums. Satire, does not produce discourse, especially when it’s about topics that otherwise get locked for not having anything of discourse, nor being related to GW2.

dude.
it tells you when you get an infraction point.

trust me.
no infraction point there.

Infractions have been given for quoting a deleted post in the past. Unfortunately we cannot speak of it without also having that post infracted as per forum rules.
I have had discussions with others in this thread about this very subject in the past and it is one of the primary reasons I stopped posting here. Also, you can also get infracted for saying something good about the game, not only something bad. See the thread below:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/support/Recent-interactions-with-support/first#post5723049

appeal it thru the email.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

(edited by insanemaniac.2456)

Egocentrism

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Posted by: ShiningSquirrel.3751

ShiningSquirrel.3751

Odd that he gets notifications like that when I normally get something like the following:

Your post in (thread name) was removed because it quoted a post that was deleted by a moderator. This notification is intended only to inform you of why your post was removed. The removal does not result in any points of penalties and does not affect your forum account in any way.

That’s all that’s in the message. Why the difference?

It’s a procedural difference. There are two ways to remove a post, and although the core messaging is the same, there is other messaging around it in the one case, as you saw in JaFW’s example. Both result in removal; both result in appropriate core messaging as long as the moderator is sure to write it; both would not give points, as you can see. However, the message that JaFW received is actually the result of use of the better procedure because it retains more information in case of an appeal or questions.

You didn’t just remove the offensive word post, Gaile, you infracted half the thread for it.

This forum software writes “kitten” all over half of creation at even the slightest hint of potential vulgarity, yet somehow a word got through that is so “highly offensive” that you have to punish 4 people merely for the sin of quoting it?

Meanwhile, another thread is allowed to stand with a title change, even though you know as well as I do that if it had be me that posted the thread, I’d have gotten in trouble for it.

you do not accumulate infraction points for posts deleted because of quoting an infracted/deleted post unless something is naughty about your post too. theyre simply deleted, and a notification spams your inbox.

Unfortunately this is not always true.

That is generally true. It is rare for someone to receive points for quoting a removed post. In those cases, it’s most likely that they are receiving points not for the removal but for what they said below the quoted content.

In the case I was speaking about, the user was specifically infracted for “quoting a deleted post”. That is the exact reason given. When it was pointed out that it was not possible to quote a post that had already been deleted, the infraction was removed. In this case, the mod admitted the infraction should never have been given in the first place. You and I had discussed this over a year ago in private.
Check the link I posted in my previouse response. I came back after not playing for a year and thanked support for doing a great job getting me back in to my account and fixing several issues I had. I was infracted for pointing out how great support is. I do support myself for a living and know how much it sucks getting nothing but complaints all the time so I thought it would be nice for you guys to get a compliment when it was deserved. I just thought it was funny that saying thank you was against the rules as well. ;-)

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Previous

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

As I have said, until the sun went down, forum members are welcome to discuss or ask questions about individual issues, infractions, etc., as they relate to their forum accounts. Please drop us a line if you want to discuss.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

Egocentrism

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Previous

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

Next

ShiningSquirrel — you are not infracted. This is exactly what you were told, and exactly what happened:

“The thread " Recent interactions with support" was moved from the Guild Wars 2 Discussion sub-forum because it was a better fit for the Account & Technical Support sub-forum.”

The thread then was moved. No points, no penalty — just keeping things on topic where the topic best fits. The subject was support. The moderator felt it was best expressed in the support sub-forums. Makes sense to me!

Edit to add: It was very kind of you to post that, and I admit I blanched when I saw the content and read that you believed it was infracted. I hope all is forgiven with this explanation, and thank you for the post!

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

Egocentrism

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: ShiningSquirrel.3751

ShiningSquirrel.3751

ShiningSquirrel — you are not infracted. This is exactly what you were told, and exactly what happened:

“The thread " Recent interactions with support" was moved from the Guild Wars 2 Discussion sub-forum because it was a better fit for the Account & Technical Support sub-forum.”

The thread then was moved. No points, no penalty — just keeping things on topic where the topic best fits. The subject was support. The moderator felt it was best expressed in the support sub-forums. Makes sense to me!

Edit to add: It was very kind of you to post that, and I admit I blanched when I saw the content and read that you believed it was infracted. I hope all is forgiven with this explanation, and thank you for the post!

Nothing to forgive Gail, I may complain, but I still love you guys! Like I said, I was actually amused by it. I am back in game after taking some time off (best thing to do if your feeling burnt out) having fun, and have no real complaints about the game. If anything, I feel kind of embarrassed about some of the complaints I used to have as I have seen just how wrong I was.

Egocentrism

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

…snip…

Treat others as you would wish to be treated. If you wish to be insulted, insult others. If you wish to have fingers pointed at you, point fingers at others. If you wish to have a rational discussion, then discuss things rationally.

It’s not always going to work because you are the only person you have control over, but it’s a start. Getting angry and rage-posting isn’t going to help anyone.

~EW

I would go with the first sentence and call it good: Treat others as you would wish to be treated. That says it all.

Agreed… But, I’m chronically verbose.

~EW

Egocentrism

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Posted by: DGraves.3720

DGraves.3720

All people are egocentric. It is just a matter of degree. For who can feel the pain of others?

Egocentrism

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Palador.2170

Palador.2170

TL;dr: The messaging is poor and we can’t change it, I wish with all my heart that we could, but we’re stuck with those auto-messages at this time. We do our best to write personal and very clear messaging in the body, though.

“At this time”? I guess that brings up an important question, if there’s any chance of replacing the forum software at any point in the relatively near future? It’s one of those things you guys REALLY need to fix, sometime.

Normally I’d have more to say, and likely be somewhat bitter in the process, but it seems I’ve a need to rethink a few things. This thread sent me back through my private messages to review the infraction messages I’ve gotten in the past, and now I realize that only a couple of them actually had points on them. The use of the term “Infracted” lead me to think they all had. It’s luck that I saved them all, or I’d have likely continued to believe that.

Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.

Egocentrism

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

All people are egocentric. It is just a matter of degree. For who can feel the pain of others?

Not sure if you were trying to be funny, but to answer your question, just about anyone who is not a sociopath since all humans have mirror neurons.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510904/

The extent to which individuals are/feel egocentric differs per individual. While issues regarding basic needs and instincts will trigger more egoistical responses from individuals, more abstract thoughts and emotions will vary in response severity.

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Posted by: Asrat.2645

Asrat.2645

Not sure if you were trying to be funny, but to answer your question, just about anyone who is not a sociopath since all humans have mirror neurons.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510904/

The extent to which individuals are/feel egocentric differs per individual. While issues regarding basic needs and instincts will trigger more egoistical responses from individuals, more abstract thoughts and emotions will vary in response severity.

Overread the link, they are talking about synaptical signals when observing a similar action to our own on others.
True empathy is still impossible, since every humans brains is unique and will react different to the same situation. All you can do is observe the situation another person is in and their outside reactions and try to imagine how you would feel in order to relate to that other persons feelings. Its very questionable, how close to ‘feeling someone else’s pain’ that actually gets you.
However, that may be ‘a little’ offtopic.

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

gaile has outlined well what to post, but not so much what not to post. the problem is when this:

“I don’t like this because [reasons]”

becomes instead:

+/- a few kittens, paragraphs, and typos:

“i kittening hate this kittening kitten kitten [censor dodge] cuz [dev] is a kittening kittenty piece of [censor dodge] and anet needs to kittening fire some kittenes and spend money on [something full of kittens] instead”

which is obviously garbage and gets deleted, but is reposted, deleted again, and then the OP complains that anet deletes negative feedback and the mods are fascists in a 3rd repost resulting in a 3rd infraction, prolly a ban, and deleted again.

and yes, people do this. over 3 years, ive watched and laughed and had tons of “this thread was moved to subforum trashcan” notifications and laughed again.

keep it civil and your criticism wont be deleted. but the people who need to understand this walk into the forum angry with no posting history and post vitriol without ever reading the forums or code of conduct or even taking a look at whats on the front page of the relevant sub and get kicked out with a ban.

Even if you do keep it civil it can still be deleted, trust me on this one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510904/

The problem with that article is it quotes a certain “disorder” but that disorder was classified by psychologists, not scientists. Lots of people on the spectrum are so diverse in their symptoms that it’s hard to believe it has the same root cause. If a prodigy has that “disorder” no one says the disorder helped him excel in his talent and a new term was invented called “splinter ability” to minimize people’s talents whereas if they’re on the opposite end of the IQ spectrum the “disorder” is somehow responsible. Even psychometrics has lots of subjectivity to it since you could ask for the odd one out and one person would say the vowel for being a vowel whereas another would say it lacks straight lines.

The article also has a very bigoted tone. Defects in the mirror neuron system are being linked to disorders like autism. This review is a brief introduction to the neurons that shaped our civilization. Implying that people with the “disorder” are somehow inferior. Since racism and homophobia are taboo in “polite” circles the targets have moved.

If you Google neurotypical privilege you’ll understand that the legal system has been very lenient towards murderers, despite the prosecution having more than enough resources for expert witnesses and the deck stacked in its favor in general, especially against a poor or middle class defendant. The prosecution in general even tries getting irrefutable proof of innocence suppressed since the legal system gets treated like a game where one must convict for the private prison industrial complex at all costs. Because of a corrupt and biased legal system and having far too many laws (85% in American prison are non-violent offenders and overwhelmingly of color and even among the violent offenders are people in there off a technicality or evidence against their guilt suppressed) the label “criminal” is worthless as a measure of moral judgment. Abolitionists on the Underground Railroad were “criminals”, so crime in some cases is even morally just.

Discrimination against certain types of “disabled” is just as bad as racism, it being socially acceptable makes it no better.

(edited by Agemnon.4608)

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Other than the practical side. The reason why discrimination based on racism is bad is because it is factually incorrect: the color of your skin doesn’t determine the content of your character. But if someone is “disabled” in such a way as to be extremely violent and dangerous, then of course they will be discriminated against. They’re operationally different, and in such a way that refusing to pass judgement leads to bodily harm.

I have aspergers myself. I literally cannot understand social etiquette and social norms. It doesn’t feel like I’m some kind of super unique snowflake that is equal to everyone else in my own unique snowflakey way. It feels like my head is broken; that I am deaf to the extrasensory noise that everyone else readily hears and understands. I’m horrible at customer service jobs (I’ve literally sent customers away crying before, not sure how), and if someone doesn’t want to hire me for a customer service job, that is the a practical, reasonable, and logical choice, not an evil one.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.