Guild Wars 2

You are talking a lot about rewards. What kind of reward are you looking/begging for? What would satisfy your hunger and extinguish your thirst?

Beldin.5498:

Bright.9160:

Not to mention that there’s absolutely nothing wrong for a gaming company to cater both to hardcores and casuals. In fact, it would be a lot of a better business plan than what they have now. Having both markets play your game is better than only having one of them…

Thats the big question. Is it really better when 50% of your developer ressources are spent for maybe 5% of the playerbase .. and 50% for the other 95% .. or are these 95% kitten ed of maybe after a while because it would be so much better if they get 100% and also a chance to get some nice shinies that normally only these 5% have.

… huh?

I don’t mind having people being better then me, but the game is too easy in general. Normal quests just feels like hack-n-slash mostly. And waypoints everywhere which doesn’t require you to plan your route or anything and kind of takes away the adventurous feeling.

Belenwyn.8674:

You are talking a lot about rewards. What kind of reward are you looking/begging for? What would satisfy your hunger and extinguish your thirst?

Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

Mejo.3198:

And waypoints everywhere which doesn’t require you to plan your route or anything and kind of takes away the adventurous feeling.

You can’t use a Waypoint that you haven’t discovered yet, so you will indeed have to walk there at least once. Also nobody forces you to use them .. if you want to run an hour from LA to Orr each time .. more power to you

Mejo.3198:

I don’t mind having people being better then me, but the game is too easy in general. Normal quests just feels like hack-n-slash mostly. And waypoints everywhere which doesn’t require you to plan your route or anything and kind of takes away the adventurous feeling.

I agree with this. Though it’s really tough to be able to get it right. Most of my friends don’t game a lot, or just kinda stink at it, so for them this game is challenging. For me, it’s pretty much a cakewalk since I play games a pretty solid amount and am used to the ridiculously hard content of other games. But if they geared all the content around someone like me, the game would probably flop since folks who don’t game 20+ hours a week and/or have a lot of overall gaming time under their belt would start dropping out like flies in frustration.

tl;dr- I understand WHY it is as easy as it is, but I do have the guilty wish that it was tougher.

I think ANet is trying to make content that appeals to the elite. They did in GW1, they’re trying to do so here. Look at FotM, the AC revamp, rewrites of mob mechanics for the Krait and the Risen, scaling revamp in Orr events. Most of these changes have produced backlash from players claiming the changes made that aspect of the game “too hard.” Yet, these changes have not floated the boats of those asking for challenge. Why?

The problems are:

• the combat mechanics make even 1-hit kills irrelevant to someone who can dodge/block/reflect them every time — and anything greater than a 1-hit kill is by definition also irrelevant
• pressure damage (conditions applied constantly, AoE proliferation and ubiquity — often to the point of nowhere to move to, lots of little hits that add up) has to be forgiving enough to allow for success given good play; since this tactic can be overcome, it will be. Once it is overcome repeating that success is not hard
• open-world content difficulty is susceptible to being outnumbered, despite scaling (e.g., on FC the temple events are not being done; on SoS, they are (or were two nights ago) well attended — the other night while guesting I saw 4 of 5 god statues inactive)

While I’ve seen quite a few requests for more challenge, I seldom see any of those posters offering concrete suggestions as to how to provide it. Now, there’s a challenge, work towards a solution.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I think ANet is trying to make content that appeals to the elite. They did in GW1, they’re trying to do so here. Look at FotM, the AC revamp, rewrites of mob mechanics for the Krait and the Risen, scaling revamp in Orr events. Most of these changes have produced backlash from players claiming the changes made that aspect of the game “too hard.” Yet, these changes have not floated the boats of those asking for challenge. Why?

The problems are:

• the combat mechanics make even 1-hit kills irrelevant to someone who can dodge/block/reflect them every time — and anything greater than a 1-hit kill is by definition also irrelevant
• pressure damage (conditions applied constantly, AoE proliferation and ubiquity — often to the point of nowhere to move to, lots of little hits that add up) has to be forgiving enough to allow for success given good play; since this tactic can be overcome, it will be. Once it is overcome repeating that success is not hard
• open-world content difficulty is susceptible to being outnumbered, despite scaling (e.g., on FC the temple events are not being done; on SoS, they are (or were two nights ago) well attended — the other night while guesting I saw 4 of 5 god statues inactive)

While I’ve seen quite a few requests for more challenge, I seldom see any of those posters offering concrete suggestions as to how to provide it. Now, there’s a challenge, work towards a solution.

My solution to cater more to the “elite”:

Reduce NPC damage so that it takes 2-3 hits to kill a player instead of 1.
Increase # of Dodge times per endurance bar to 3 or even 4.
Increase NPC attack rate by 300% or more.

Instead of a slow “I hit you, you hit me” combat system where 1 hit = death and you can only dodge twice, make it a fast paced combat system.

Beldin.5498:

Bright.9160:

Not to mention that there’s absolutely nothing wrong for a gaming company to cater both to hardcores and casuals. In fact, it would be a lot of a better business plan than what they have now. Having both markets play your game is better than only having one of them…

Thats the big question. Is it really better when 50% of your developer ressources are spent for maybe 5% of the playerbase .. and 50% for the other 95% .. or are these 95% kitten ed of maybe after a while because it would be so much better if they get 100% and also a chance to get some nice shinies that normally only these 5% have.

Well, when WoW started catering to the casuals, they started losing players. And by losing players, I don’t mean ‘lol, 5% left, cry babies’, no, their sales went down all across the board. So, actually, yes.

Belenwyn.8674:

You are talking a lot about rewards. What kind of reward are you looking/begging for? What would satisfy your hunger and extinguish your thirst?

In GW1 the UW/DoA/Deep/Urgoz/FoW gave unique skins that were tradeable and highly valuable. What this did was:

1. Give challenging content that people mostly enjoyed completing.
2. Gave significant rewards that made people who did the instances fastest/best better off.

Let’s imagine that fractals were balanced to the point that the grawl shaman level was the standard level of difficulty. An interesting encounter that rewards optimal builds and good team play. Sure we can debate this, but lets assume it as a fact for this example. This would provide the type of content people want.

Then lets say that fotm skins were non-account bound and only dropped at 40+. What do you suppose a fractal greatsword would sell for on the TP? I would imagine a few dozen gold. Maybe I’m way low. It would still be an RNG lottery, but at least being able to sell the unwanted skins would give the reward commensurate with the effort.

Not saying this is the exact solution I want, but it touches the main idea:

The prestige skins should be tradeable, and should be acquired by completing prestige content. First, obviously, we need prestige content. But making the prestige items linked to completion of whatever the prestige content is how you adequately reward players in the end game.

TooBz.3065:

Antara.3189:

Pretty funny post honestly, Little bit of boasting and flexing… haha. As long as it makes you feel like a boss though.

On point though, post this answer in many threads but this game does seem to be trending towards casual, giddy content that is more for the family, than the “core” gamer. Maybe soon, this game can be a personalized version of Sims. Cosmetics, homes, susie homemaker.

How do you define casual content? What do you consider a challenge?

I agree that much of the living story has been “meh” at best, although the dungeon at the end of flame and frost was cool.

My personal view is that ANet is trying to mix it up. You get some challenging content such as the Halloween jumping puzzles. You get dungeons like the flame and frost thing and the super adventure dohicky. They also throw in a lot of diversion stuff like crab toss.

The idea is to make the game generally entertaining.

I consider casual content such as this; Content that can be easily completed with any level character without any prerequisites. For example, Southsun Cove is casual through and through. Arah Explorable has to planned more thoroughly (Unless you’re a boss like OP, then you just “slam” through it… I guess.)

True Endgame content that is tailored for level 80s that requires steps to complete is not casual. You have to put effort in to be rewarded. Granted, Dungeon rewards are weak, but the idea behind planning, and having pre-requisites is what I like to do.
Some people complain that content such as that is grinding, but I disagree. It’s for the players who want challenging, rewarding content. Underworld and Domain of Anguish in GW1 were examples of this. You didn’t casualy beat those areas (Again, if your like the OP, and just “bossed” through it, then it doesnt matter what you play, cause your a game god and just need SUPLEX MODE 5000 just to get a challenge. You versus 5000 hordes of zombies with just a wooden plank.)
My list of Casual Content

1. Southsun
2. SAB
3. Mini Games
4. Early Fractals
5. Holiday Events

True Game Content

1. End Game dungeons
2. Content that requires extended time/effort of play to achieve.

Bright.9160:

Beldin.5498:

Bright.9160:

Not to mention that there’s absolutely nothing wrong for a gaming company to cater both to hardcores and casuals. In fact, it would be a lot of a better business plan than what they have now. Having both markets play your game is better than only having one of them…

Thats the big question. Is it really better when 50% of your developer ressources are spent for maybe 5% of the playerbase .. and 50% for the other 95% .. or are these 95% kitten ed of maybe after a while because it would be so much better if they get 100% and also a chance to get some nice shinies that normally only these 5% have.

Well, when WoW started catering to the casuals, they started losing players. And by losing players, I don’t mean ‘lol, 5% left, cry babies’, no, their sales went down all across the board. So, actually, yes.

To be fair, WoW is a horrible example since they also started catering to casuals at the same time the MMO market boomed with games that have graphics so amazing in comparison that it makes WoW look like something from the 90s…

They lost players for a LOT more reasons than that. The 5% left for that reason… the other who knows how many people left because WoW is a dinosaur that has failed to keep up with the genre.

-Signed,
A hardcore MC/BWL/Naxx raider

Tolmos.8395:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I think ANet is trying to make content that appeals to the elite. They did in GW1, they’re trying to do so here. Look at FotM, the AC revamp, rewrites of mob mechanics for the Krait and the Risen, scaling revamp in Orr events. Most of these changes have produced backlash from players claiming the changes made that aspect of the game “too hard.” Yet, these changes have not floated the boats of those asking for challenge. Why?

The problems are:

• the combat mechanics make even 1-hit kills irrelevant to someone who can dodge/block/reflect them every time — and anything greater than a 1-hit kill is by definition also irrelevant
• pressure damage (conditions applied constantly, AoE proliferation and ubiquity — often to the point of nowhere to move to, lots of little hits that add up) has to be forgiving enough to allow for success given good play; since this tactic can be overcome, it will be. Once it is overcome repeating that success is not hard
• open-world content difficulty is susceptible to being outnumbered, despite scaling (e.g., on FC the temple events are not being done; on SoS, they are (or were two nights ago) well attended — the other night while guesting I saw 4 of 5 god statues inactive)

While I’ve seen quite a few requests for more challenge, I seldom see any of those posters offering concrete suggestions as to how to provide it. Now, there’s a challenge, work towards a solution.

My solution to cater more to the “elite”:

Reduce NPC damage so that it takes 2-3 hits to kill a player instead of 1.
Increase # of Dodge times per endurance bar to 3 or even 4.
Increase NPC attack rate by 300% or more.

Instead of a slow “I hit you, you hit me” combat system where 1 hit = death and you can only dodge twice, make it a fast paced combat system.

Even if bosses ran around a room. Make them go crazy, make us hunt them. Make them stealth after a certain percent of health and spawn waves of adds. Make them say things witty phrases in the middle of the fight, make Lupicus fly on a hoverboard. Make a boss that gets bloodlust stacks for each mob you kill in the dungeon so it encourages skipping. Make a dungeon that requires you to kill a secret, unspecified number of mobs in order for the last boss to spawn. Make 2 bosses that fight each other while you are stuck in the middle, choosing which one to aid for a specific reward from that boss. Make a blue boss and a pink boss that reward you with a dress when you kill them. There are so many ideas and options, but the only thing implemented in Guild Wars 2 (for the most part) was “here’s a boss that you attack and dodge.” Give me a job with Anet and I’ll design them myself.

100% agree with OP. Unfortunately, the content in this game is simply steamroll with very, very, very little reward and noticeable distinguishment between accomplishing this. I’m not asking for a gear grind of some sorts here and I’ve posted about this in other threads, but larger-group-instanced content w/ hard/normal mode encounters and a cosmetic grind would be very welcome. Open-world content can simply put; never be challenging, and 5-man dungeons are simply put; easy and unsupportive of a guild’s health.

Antara.3189:

TooBz.3065:

Antara.3189:

Pretty funny post honestly, Little bit of boasting and flexing… haha. As long as it makes you feel like a boss though.

On point though, post this answer in many threads but this game does seem to be trending towards casual, giddy content that is more for the family, than the “core” gamer. Maybe soon, this game can be a personalized version of Sims. Cosmetics, homes, susie homemaker.

How do you define casual content? What do you consider a challenge?

I agree that much of the living story has been “meh” at best, although the dungeon at the end of flame and frost was cool.

My personal view is that ANet is trying to mix it up. You get some challenging content such as the Halloween jumping puzzles. You get dungeons like the flame and frost thing and the super adventure dohicky. They also throw in a lot of diversion stuff like crab toss.

The idea is to make the game generally entertaining.

I consider casual content such as this; Content that can be easily completed with any level character without any prerequisites. For example, Southsun Cove is casual through and through. Arah Explorable has to planned more thoroughly (Unless you’re a boss like OP, then you just “slam” through it… I guess.)

True Endgame content that is tailored for level 80s that requires steps to complete is not casual. You have to put effort in to be rewarded. Granted, Dungeon rewards are weak, but the idea behind planning, and having pre-requisites is what I like to do.
Some people complain that content such as that is grinding, but I disagree. It’s for the players who want challenging, rewarding content. Underworld and Domain of Anguish in GW1 were examples of this. You didn’t casualy beat those areas (Again, if your like the OP, and just “bossed” through it, then it doesnt matter what you play, cause your a game god and just need SUPLEX MODE 5000 just to get a challenge. You versus 5000 hordes of zombies with just a wooden plank.)

Er… I disagree with this. I usually scoff at the whole “You should EARN your in game rewards” arguments, with the mental image of fat guy from southpark’s WoW episode behind the keyboard. That said, the game wouldn’t be fun if nothing required any effort.

Ever played a really awesome game and then used a cheat code for it? If not, then be happy because that can RUIN game. Suddenly achieving everything without putting forth even the smallest amount of effort pretty much ends the game before it starts. Most games aren’t meant to be work, but they are meant to be challenging. That isn’t a blanket statement that applies to ALL games, but it does hold true for most.

I’m a borderline elitist…and I adore this game.

WvW. If you want to get your elitist out, do it there as a roamer.

Fight nekkid with only a spoon! Because we know a spoon hurts way more.

I know that that is not helping. Similar like people have to pretend their characters can sit in chairs (if that’s what you like – you know, roleplay).

On a serious note – I thought that Fotm should offer an ever increasing difficulty. Pardon my ignorance on this subject, is that not working like it should?

Folks, there are some truly obnoxious elitist folks in this community but TheMaskedParadigm does not seem to be one of them. He has been nothing but civil. Lets return the courtesy, shall we?

Sure a little ego makes its way into his description of how he came to get tired of the game but is that a bad thing? He says he sat solo fighting Lupi just to get the timing and such just right. He put in the time and has earned a bit of self-congratulation.

All that said, I think by reducing the game to a science like that may have spoiled the fun. PvE is by nature static. There is always a pattern to take advantage of if you look carefully enough and beyond that all you need is a good connection and adequate reflexes.

You have stated why you don’t care for the WvW/sPvP side of things so I won’t suggest that, but it is what this game has for you in terms of unpredictable play.

My previous suggestion was roll with a character not so currently overpowered. You said you do so and it just feels slower. I take this to mean you are still getting through the content relatively easily but with added tedium, so that really isn’t much of a solution.

What about one with a fundamentally different approach?

In response to Broadicea’s snipe, Playing one of the three unbalanced characters exclusively and complaining about the lack of challenge is not that far from hacking your way past the bosses in a dungeons and complaining about how easy it is. It makes things easier so that is great if the goal is ease. If the goal is to challenge yourself, not so much.

Rouven.7409:

On a serious note – I thought that Fotm should offer an ever increasing difficulty. Pardon my ignorance on this subject, is that not working like it should?

If by ‘increasing difficulty’ you mean ‘more and more spawns with more and more health that do more and more damage, but are about as interesting to beat as a wet sock’, then you guessed correct.

If by ‘increasing difficulty’ you mean ‘stronger mobs not because of increased healthbars, but by better and interesting mechanics’ you guessed wrong.

Also, the reason people don’t like to do Fractals anymore is because it’s about as rewarding as blowing a hobo. You’re not going to enjoy it, and you’re definitely not going to get payed in the end.

RedCobra.7693:

TooBz.3065:

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

About the topic of PvP which I’ve already commented on, but I guess I’ll do it again:

I don’t really enjoy PvP. I do WvW or sPvP on occasion, have a pretty good idea of what I’m doing, but it just doesn’t keep me entertained. I enjoy refining strategies, learning boss encounters, seeing how fast I can complete dungeons etc. Bosses in this game (save Legendary Imbued Shaman, Mossman because he has a stealth party and is broken, and Simin pre-nerfs) just sit around and let you attack them, posing no threat. HotW is a great example, so is the Jellyfish in Fractals. The bosses and dungeons aren’t fun anymore, and there isn’t any new influx of content that is similar (Molten Facility was a time-gated joke to me) and challenging. PvP is something that is fun for me in small amounts, but it gets stale and boring much faster to me than PvE. The opposite is probably true for PvP enthusiasts, because they don’t like sticking to a strict routine of memorizing patterns, which is more what I like. I used to play LoL quite a bit before GW2, sat around 1500 elo and then trolled my way down to ~500 elo with Blitzcrank and Rocket Grab. It was fun in phases, but I wasn’t able to sit and go at it for hours and hours like I enjoy with PvE. If new content was introduced that presented some sort of a challenge to me or othe rhardcore players, I would really be able to enjoy Guild Wars 2 more, but there just isn’t any content that fits that bill in this game.

The problem with PvE is that you can learn the strategies, and once you do, perfect your execution. By its very nature you will eventually exhaust the available content. Which is why I suggested PvP, where it’s impossible to learn all the strategies because they adapt.

However, if you don’t like PvP, then yes, you may have exhausted all of the content. But you may need to take a break and wait for ANet to produce new content. Like reading a book or watching a movie, it takes far longer to create than it takes to experience.

whats wrong with learning the strategies? thats what i like about challenges some might be harder to learn and its not guarenteed that you could eventually do it.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting new challenges. the only thing is that it takes a lot longer to create a challenge than it does for someone to master one. Therefore, you will periodically exhaust the content of the game.

I am a heavy PvX’er, but the purpose of this post is pertaining to PvE, which is conisderably lacking in any difficult instanced content and open-world PvE is just a zerg-fest (which it has to be, how can Anet ask for hardcore players to work with casual players and still have both types of players be satisisfied with the content?). Nonetheless, PvP and WvW are both in quite healthy states at the moment (I enjoy them thoroughly).

Antara.3189:

TooBz.3065:

Antara.3189:

Pretty funny post honestly, Little bit of boasting and flexing… haha. As long as it makes you feel like a boss though.

On point though, post this answer in many threads but this game does seem to be trending towards casual, giddy content that is more for the family, than the “core” gamer. Maybe soon, this game can be a personalized version of Sims. Cosmetics, homes, susie homemaker.

How do you define casual content? What do you consider a challenge?

I agree that much of the living story has been “meh” at best, although the dungeon at the end of flame and frost was cool.

My personal view is that ANet is trying to mix it up. You get some challenging content such as the Halloween jumping puzzles. You get dungeons like the flame and frost thing and the super adventure dohicky. They also throw in a lot of diversion stuff like crab toss.

The idea is to make the game generally entertaining.

I consider casual content such as this; Content that can be easily completed with any level character without any prerequisites. For example, Southsun Cove is casual through and through. Arah Explorable has to planned more thoroughly (Unless you’re a boss like OP, then you just “slam” through it… I guess.)

True Endgame content that is tailored for level 80s that requires steps to complete is not casual. You have to put effort in to be rewarded. Granted, Dungeon rewards are weak, but the idea behind planning, and having pre-requisites is what I like to do.
Some people complain that content such as that is grinding, but I disagree. It’s for the players who want challenging, rewarding content. Underworld and Domain of Anguish in GW1 were examples of this. You didn’t casualy beat those areas (Again, if your like the OP, and just “bossed” through it, then it doesnt matter what you play, cause your a game god and just need SUPLEX MODE 5000 just to get a challenge. You versus 5000 hordes of zombies with just a wooden plank.)
My list of Casual Content

1. Southsun
2. SAB
3. Mini Games
4. Early Fractals
5. Holiday Events

True Game Content

1. End Game dungeons
2. Content that requires extended time/effort of play to achieve.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the definition. Under your definition I think that all of the new content has been casual.

Bright.9160:

Rouven.7409:

On a serious note – I thought that Fotm should offer an ever increasing difficulty. Pardon my ignorance on this subject, is that not working like it should?

If by ‘increasing difficulty’ you mean ‘more and more spawns with more and more health that do more and more damage, but are about as interesting to beat as a wet sock’, then you guessed correct.

If by ‘increasing difficulty’ you mean ‘stronger mobs not because of increased healthbars, but by better and interesting mechanics’ you guessed wrong.

Also, the reason people don’t like to do Fractals anymore is because it’s about as rewarding as blowing a hobo. You’re not going to enjoy it, and you’re definitely not going to get payed in the end.

Got it, thanks for the detailed answer.

Add:
The entire story mode is not casual content IMO either, it’s true game content. Granted, it might be easy to do, but you actually follow a story line and it actually requires some effort to do.

In a nutshell anything casual can be completed by just logging on, beating it quickly and being rewarded with max gear.

All I’m saying is there should be both types of content. The problem is, content hungry players want content all the time, and the result is short, easily achieved content such as southsun.

Some people scoff at me for saying this, but look at the pre-requisites for achieving the title God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals in GW1, or maxing your 50/50 HoM points. That required effort to do. It was a challenge, but rewarding to the player who did it. Granted, I think GW1 was not tailored for the casual player, but if you mix that kind of content with GW2 Both crowds should be happy. Right now the core player is left standing in LA.

I do agree that WvW is fun as “kittens”, I never get bored in there. Fractals is fun if you have the right group. And a real challenge comes to those who want to craft a legendary (without spending your real money on gold).

IndigoSundown.5419:

I think ANet is trying to make content that appeals to the elite. They did in GW1, they’re trying to do so here. Look at FotM, the AC revamp, rewrites of mob mechanics for the Krait and the Risen, scaling revamp in Orr events. Most of these changes have produced backlash from players claiming the changes made that aspect of the game “too hard.” Yet, these changes have not floated the boats of those asking for challenge. Why?

Why? Because they forgot to increase the rewards along with the difficulty. Why should I do the events with the new Risen/Krait if I get the same rewards as doing an event in Queensdale? It’s total nonsense.

I’m ok with making content harder and more challenging, but increase the rewards to compensate! It doesn’t make any sense to me that a level 48 fractal has far worse drops than a level 12 and it takes a lot more time to complete.

Quixal.9124:

In response to Broadicea’s snipe, Playing one of the three unbalanced characters exclusively and complaining about the lack of challenge is not that far from hacking your way past the bosses in a dungeons and complaining about how easy it is. It makes things easier so that is great if the goal is ease. If the goal is to challenge yourself, not so much.

The thing is, if we need to resort to deliberately crippling ourselves in order to create a challenge, Anet is doing something wrong with their game.

And it’s not necessarily the challenge we crave, it’s a fun and interesting, yet challenging encounter.

TooBz.3065:

There’s nothing wrong with wanting new challenges. the only thing is that it takes a lot longer to create a challenge than it does for someone to master one. Therefore, you will periodically exhaust the content of the game.

Wrong. UW, FoW and DoA had been in the game for 7 years and 5 years and people were still doing them when GW2 came out.

You want to know why? They were fun, interesting, challenging (this part is debatable, but at least they were more challenging than anything I’ve seen in GW2) and most importantly: rewarding.

GW2 offers none of those things in those combinations.

We have CoF and CoE for the rewarding part, but it’s neither challenging, nor interesting. CoE can be fun, ish, but only for so long.

Arah offers some sort of challenge, although most bosses can be facetanked and DPS’ed down anyway. But the rewards are not really up to par with the effort you put in to master it.

Fractals offers a challenge, but a completely wrong one. It’s not interesting, nor fun, and the rewards are completely lackluster as well.

Antara.3189:

Some people scoff at me for saying this, but look at the pre-requisites for achieving the title God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals in GW1, or maxing your 50/50 HoM points. That required effort to do. It was a challenge, but rewarding to the player who did it. Granted, I think GW1 was not tailored for the casual player, but if you mix that kind of content with GW2 Both crowds should be happy. Right now the core player is left standing in LA.

And a real challenge comes to those who want to craft a legendary (without spending your real money on gold).

As someone who got GWAMM back in ‘09 (I ended up with 35 maxed titles, and 5 account bound ones), I can tell you this: GWAMM was a lot of things, but challenging was not one of them. It was a grind, nothing more. Same with legendaries: it’s a pure grind. And grind =/= challenge.

That’s like saying Legendary Treasure Hunter was a challenge (I had that one too by the way. In fact, I got over 16k chests over 2 accounts). Because it wasn’t. It was a grind as well. I liked chest running though, that’s why I did it. I didn’t get the title because I wanted it, I got it because I liked chest running, and actually made money doing it.

Honestly, Im just going to mirror what some others have said.

I am going to assume that the people complaining about difficulty are PvE focused, and are also relatively “new” to MMOs (meaning, started playing after Ultima, EQ1, etc. There will be exceptions to this, obviously.

Those of us who have been around for a while might have discovered the trick in challenge and that is to create your own (not all have, mind you). For whatever reason, most who make posts like these are fervently against this and wish for rewards for doing what they are already doing. Most want the “easy” way out by having everything done for them.

I say this only because that is EXACTLY where I was at years ago, when WoW really started to change things around. In retrospect, I was being pretty kitten dramatic about it all, but on other things, it actually made some improvements to the genre.

The reality is, with PvE AI, there is no way to truly get challenging content. There arent any dynamics that cant be learned. The only way to find this is with advanced AI (which is still a bit off) or actually playing against other humans. The issue that I initially had with playing against other people was that it smacked my ego around pretty harshly. I learned that I wasnt nearly as good as I thought.

The drawback is you have to deal with even bigger egos than in PvE (which is saying something, honestly).

I eventually learned that if I wanted challenge, I HAD to create it for myself. To continually have the challenge I craved, I could do it with the “toolset” that was given to me by the game designers in the form of the game.

While some may be against “tying one hand behind your back,” I only have one thing to ask; why? Through experience, I learned that doing so gave me some of the best gaming experience in my life. I do not min/max in the general sense, but I do try to coax the most performance out of builds that others consider inferior. I try to find the challenge in finding a build that wouldnt work for anyone but me. If I find something too easy, I have no issue intentionally limiting myself just to see if I am really as good as I think I am in that scenario.

Its obviously not going to apply to everyone, and this is all just from my own experience with video games, MMOs, and life in general. I learned that if I am not challenged to the extent I want, that creating that challenge myself is much more effective than waiting for someone else to do it for me. In retrospect, I was just too lazy and perhaps even a little intimidated by the idea of having my ego take a blow.

I learned to compete with myself, not the game and not even with other people. If I am not constantly growing, learning, and changing then I consider it a failure on my part and not anyone else.

Maybe it will apply to you, maybe it wont. But, this is how I came to terms when things got too easy. I consider it a life lesson that I can apply to anything, including video games.

Rouven.7409:

Bright.9160:

Rouven.7409:

On a serious note – I thought that Fotm should offer an ever increasing difficulty. Pardon my ignorance on this subject, is that not working like it should?

If by ‘increasing difficulty’ you mean ‘more and more spawns with more and more health that do more and more damage, but are about as interesting to beat as a wet sock’, then you guessed correct.

If by ‘increasing difficulty’ you mean ‘stronger mobs not because of increased healthbars, but by better and interesting mechanics’ you guessed wrong.

Also, the reason people don’t like to do Fractals anymore is because it’s about as rewarding as blowing a hobo. You’re not going to enjoy it, and you’re definitely not going to get payed in the end.

Got it, thanks for the detailed answer.

There was a post in the Dungeons forums where some people “complained” that the Underwater fractal boss (jellyfish beast) was way too easy and boring fight. The Dev answered: “Wait until you get at the higher levels and you will see”

I must say, even at fotm level 80 it is ridiculously easy/boring unless the Dev was talking about level 100 or something (which doesn’t exist yet)

I feel the real issue, or atleast part of the issue is that the “elite and hardcore” have already beaten the game to an extent at least before they even log in.

By building groups to beat the content in the most effecient ways, only using builds that game the systems in the game itself and using sites and guides to know all the “tricks” before even logging in does not help.

Now I understand that someone had to actually play the game first to make all of the guides and learn all of the tricks that lead to this type of gaming but if you are doing everything in your power to trivilize the already easy content then why does it surprise you when it seems boring and easy when you actually play through said content?

I personally feel that more people should try to beat the game within the game itself and more people would fine the game to be much more entertaining. By striving to become the best and use the best builds and guides you are only taking away any challenge the game could have offered you in the first place.

Now as backwards as that probably sounds to most of you in this thread I would really challenge you to take a few minutes and really think about that for a moment.

Stop plugging in your PC “Game Shark” and play the game within the game itself. It may not fix all of your issues with the game play but I would be willing to bet that it would help to make the gameplay better by a fair margin for more people.

If you already play this way and still find the gameplay to be too simple or not enough of a challenge then you may simply be too good at these types of games to really do anything about it. Or atleast too good for GW2. And that is in no way ment to be any type of insult or putdown but just the reality of this games gameplay.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

In GW1 the UW/DoA/Deep/Urgoz/FoW gave unique skins that were tradeable and highly valuable. What this did was:

1. Give challenging content that people mostly enjoyed completing.
2. Gave significant rewards that made people who did the instances fastest/best better off.

Let’s imagine that fractals were balanced to the point that the grawl shaman level was the standard level of difficulty. An interesting encounter that rewards optimal builds and good team play. Sure we can debate this, but lets assume it as a fact for this example. This would provide the type of content people want.

Then lets say that fotm skins were non-account bound and only dropped at 40+. What do you suppose a fractal greatsword would sell for on the TP? I would imagine a few dozen gold. Maybe I’m way low. It would still be an RNG lottery, but at least being able to sell the unwanted skins would give the reward commensurate with the effort.

Not saying this is the exact solution I want, but it touches the main idea:

The prestige skins should be tradeable, and should be acquired by completing prestige content. First, obviously, we need prestige content. But making the prestige items linked to completion of whatever the prestige content is how you adequately reward players in the end game.

Uniqueness and fungibility are excluding each other. How can something unique and reflect your excellence if everybody can buy it without the effort to complete challenging stuff? To preserve uniqueness you have to bind it to character or account.

I get the impression reward means for many people to build up oligopolic structures to control markets and to earn a lot of money by selling rewards. In last consequence elitits want only to pile up money faster than other players. Elitisms is just another word for avarice.

The OP is completely right. Elitism in every form ruins GW2 or any other game on the long run.

Belenwyn.8674:

Uniqueness and fungibility are excluding each other. How can something unique and reflect your excellence if everybody can buy it without the effort to complete challenging stuff? To preserve uniqueness you have to bind it to character or account.

I get the impression reward means for many people to build up oligopolic structures to control markets and to earn a lot of money by selling rewards. In last consequence you want only pile up money faster than other players. Elitisms is just another word for avarice.

He’s not saying he wants unique skins as an kitten meter to show to other players.

He’s saying that those unique skins functioned as a reward system that motivated players to do the harder content.

Gbok.1039:

I feel the real issue, or atleast part of the issue is that the “elite and hardcore” have already beaten the game to an extent at least before they even log in.

By building groups to beat the content in the most effecient ways, only using builds that game the systems in the game itself and using sites and guides to know all the “tricks” before even logging in does not help.

Now I understand that someone had to actually play the game first to make all of the guides and learn all of the tricks that lead to this type of gaming but if you are doing everything in your power to trivilize the already easy content then why does it surprise you when it seems boring and easy when you actually play through said content?

I personally feel that more people should try to beat the game within the game itself and more people would fine the game to be much more entertaining. By striving to become the best and use the best builds and guides you are only taking away any challenge the game could have offered you in the first place.

Now as backwards as that probably sounds to most of you in this thread I would really challenge you to take a few minutes and really think about that for a moment.

Stop plugging in your PC “Game Shark” and play the game within the game itself. It may not fix all of your issues with the game play but I would be willing to bet that it would help to make the gameplay better by a fair margin for more people.

If you already play this way and still find the gameplay to be too simple or not enough of a challenge then you may simply be too good at these types of games to really do anything about it. Or atleast too good for GW2. And that is in no way ment to be any type of insult or putdown but just the reality of this games gameplay.

My guild happens to be the guild that created a lot of the guides you may be speaking of. We played the game within the game, Strife recorded it, and other people benefited from it. We also developed new builds and strategies by playing the game withing the game, learning and innovating as we went along.

Anet don’t realize that they have a lot of hardcore players that like their game and want to play it, but they seem to want to cater to casual players, but new games are coming out all the time and most the fans of GW1 were hardcore players and they won’t stick around if Anet isn’t gonna show them the love that they are wanting, with new games coming out this year like ESO, Wildstar, Everquest Next, Final Fantasy XVI, and Archeage, I don’t even see this game even being a memory for many players.

Bright.9160:

Antara.3189:

Some people scoff at me for saying this, but look at the pre-requisites for achieving the title God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals in GW1, or maxing your 50/50 HoM points. That required effort to do. It was a challenge, but rewarding to the player who did it. Granted, I think GW1 was not tailored for the casual player, but if you mix that kind of content with GW2 Both crowds should be happy. Right now the core player is left standing in LA.

And a real challenge comes to those who want to craft a legendary (without spending your real money on gold).

As someone who got GWAMM back in ‘09 (I ended up with 35 maxed titles, and 5 account bound ones), I can tell you this: GWAMM was a lot of things, but challenging was not one of them. It was a grind, nothing more. Same with legendaries: it’s a pure grind. And grind =/= challenge.

That’s like saying Legendary Treasure Hunter was a challenge (I had that one too by the way. In fact, I got over 16k chests over 2 accounts). Because it wasn’t. It was a grind as well. I liked chest running though, that’s why I did it. I didn’t get the title because I wanted it, I got it because I liked chest running, and actually made money doing it.

I’m not saying certain parts were a grind to GWAMM, cause they were, Scraping maps was the worse thing I ever did in any game. I had to drink just to do have fun.

Vanquishing though was fun to me, clearing the map with a group of friends was awesome. Doing all the missions was also fun. If you don’t think that’s fun, then yea it could had beeen a grind, but it was your choice to go for the title. I enjoyed majority of the stuff I had to do. EotN titles could be a grind if you did the same content over and over, but I liked doing the HM books and Dungeons, Again all fun parts of the game that wasn’t casual.

I’m sure this will be controversial, but I loved Speed Clears too. The ones with a full team, everyone had a role, and you had to learn the mechanics of the role to complete the dungeon/elite area. A lot of the SC’s had a lot of ragers, but the overall aspect of EVeryone has a specific role for one common goal “Complete the area and receive the reward”.
Some of the clears that people came up with were not cake walks either, I can remember some pretty wild builds people would do for dungeon. IT was a blast though.

I cannot relate to one single time in this game (besided being drunk in a dungeon, in vent with people.) that I had as much fun as I did doing the areas in GW1. In those days, you wanted to watch how someone did a specific role, especially if they were good at that role. In this game I could care less about learning from anyone cause every classs can be every role. Just plain imo.

zenleto.6179:

Sovta.4719:

Ashabhi.1365:

@ the OP:

Yes. The elitism you speak of is ruining the game…for you.

I am sorry that the game does not cater to the ultra-hardcore dungeon crawlers/raiders. If it did, may of us (myself included) would be looking for something else.

Yes, you ruined it for yourself.

But what about us who just want to play game, challenge? Us that socialise in real life? (that we have)

What about you? If you aren’t finding any challenges and you aren’t enjoying your time playing then you should really consider your options.

Yep.

There are games made for 17 year olds who skip school to play 16 hours a day, make spreadsheets to min/max, and rage at the screen over a 0.1% difference between X and Y.

This game is not one of those games.

This is the game for that kid above once she or he hits over 30, has a kid, a job, and plays here and there while looking for an easy way to chat with her or his mates about the events of the day.

Our spreadsheets are devoted to the quarterly statement for management, we skip work because the kid got sick and we clock in 16 hours for less wages than we should get, and we rage at the screen over the 1% taking 90% of the fruits of our labor.

We don’t care for Farmville either, we want an action MMO, and now we have one.

I agreed with the general gist of OPs post. He could have stated as much without the distasteful boasting. Reads the second time as thinly veiled bragging. The replies to other poster’s replies only boosts my opinion of that.

Gbok.1039:

I feel the real issue, or atleast part of the issue is that the “elite and hardcore” have already beaten the game to an extent at least before they even log in.

By building groups to beat the content in the most effecient ways, only using builds that game the systems in the game itself and using sites and guides to know all the “tricks” before even logging in does not help.

Now I understand that someone had to actually play the game first to make all of the guides and learn all of the tricks that lead to this type of gaming but if you are doing everything in your power to trivilize the already easy content then why does it surprise you when it seems boring and easy when you actually play through said content?

I personally feel that more people should try to beat the game within the game itself and more people would fine the game to be much more entertaining. By striving to become the best and use the best builds and guides you are only taking away any challenge the game could have offered you in the first place.

Now as backwards as that probably sounds to most of you in this thread I would really challenge you to take a few minutes and really think about that for a moment.

Stop plugging in your PC “Game Shark” and play the game within the game itself. It may not fix all of your issues with the game play but I would be willing to bet that it would help to make the gameplay better by a fair margin for more people.

If you already play this way and still find the gameplay to be too simple or not enough of a challenge then you may simply be too good at these types of games to really do anything about it. Or atleast too good for GW2. And that is in no way ment to be any type of insult or putdown but just the reality of this games gameplay.

Who said they used guides and walkthroughs here? I know OP didnt, cause he said he blasts through Arah Path 4 like a boss and beats Lupicus in 46 seconds.

This thread is about people who think the content is too casual and generic versus interesting and challenging, not about using walkthroughs to slam content out. Though I’ve seen posts about it.

Masked Paradigm are you the dude from GW1 who used to tell me he would run UW, FoW, DoA with henchman as a paragon with ease? You surely sound like him if that’s not the case. It wasn’t a bad thing cause I thought his attitude about everything was hilarious. Just big hoss who could do any aspect solo with no problem. He was the guy doing Hall of Heroes with Henchman. Man I miss that guy…

Kichwas.7152:

zenleto.6179:

Sovta.4719:

Ashabhi.1365:

@ the OP:

Yes. The elitism you speak of is ruining the game…for you.

I am sorry that the game does not cater to the ultra-hardcore dungeon crawlers/raiders. If it did, may of us (myself included) would be looking for something else.

Yes, you ruined it for yourself.

But what about us who just want to play game, challenge? Us that socialise in real life? (that we have)

What about you? If you aren’t finding any challenges and you aren’t enjoying your time playing then you should really consider your options.

Yep.

There are games made for 17 year olds who skip school to play 16 hours a day, make spreadsheets to min/max, and rage at the screen over a 0.1% difference between X and Y.

This game is not one of those games.

This is the game for that kid above once she or he hits over 30, has a kid, a job, and plays here and there while looking for an easy way to chat with her or his mates about the events of the day.

Our spreadsheets are devoted to the quarterly statement for management, we skip work because the kid got sick and we clock in 16 hours for less wages than we should get, and we rage at the screen over the 1% taking 90% of the fruits of our labor.

We don’t care for Farmville either, we want an action MMO, and now we have one.

Thats exactly how I feel too. And, when I actually put effort in to find it, I see no shortage of challenge when I want it. The nice part is that there are plenty of times when I just want to log on and make a nice wade through a mass of risen, hacking away and having no worry about whether or not I am playing “to the max.”

I find both are available in GW2, and love it. I find the reward to be the game itself. I just got to the point of having so many collected pixels that the next data set started to lose all meaning. That said, for those that like that collecting, I would agree the rewards probably arent up to par with the status quo. Whether that is good or bad is subjective.

Refrained to post it here back then in general discussion because I know most people won’t find it popular. This recent patch of same old rng boxes random activities and gem store skins really put me off. Haven’t bothered with the last two month of events and was waiting for something substantial, and now here we go again. So here it is:

Lets Talk about End Game Again.

Antara.3189:

I’m not saying certain parts were a grind to GWAMM, cause they were, Scraping maps was the worse thing I ever did in any game. I had to drink just to do have fun.

Vanquishing though was fun to me, clearing the map with a group of friends was awesome. Doing all the missions was also fun. If you don’t think that’s fun, then yea it could had beeen a grind, but it was your choice to go for the title. I enjoyed majority of the stuff I had to do. EotN titles could be a grind if you did the same content over and over, but I liked doing the HM books and Dungeons, Again all fun parts of the game that wasn’t casual.

I’m sure this will be controversial, but I loved Speed Clears too. The ones with a full team, everyone had a role, and you had to learn the mechanics of the role to complete the dungeon/elite area. A lot of the SC’s had a lot of ragers, but the overall aspect of EVeryone has a specific role for one common goal “Complete the area and receive the reward”.
Some of the clears that people came up with were not cake walks either, I can remember some pretty wild builds people would do for dungeon. IT was a blast though.

I cannot relate to one single time in this game (besided being drunk in a dungeon, in vent with people.) that I had as much fun as I did doing the areas in GW1. In those days, you wanted to watch how someone did a specific role, especially if they were good at that role. In this game I could care less about learning from anyone cause every classs can be every role. Just plain imo.

I never said getting GWAMM wasn’t fun. I said it wasn’t hard. I had fun doing most of it. I got a little masochistic maxing my Luxon title though (I did 5.6mill rep points in 2 weekends, one being double Vanq rewards and one being double Lux/Kurz reward weekends).

Also, enjoying SC’s in GW1 is hardly controversial. You’re talking to one of the guys that did DoA records and did Urgoz in 6 minutes back when it was a record… I have more than 10 million LB points across my account (I don’t know the exact number, probably around 13-14mill…) etc. I loved speedclears.

I’m not asking for something like that to come back though. I’d love it, but I know it’s not something realistic to ask from Anet.

All I’m asking is challenging, fun, rewarding content that isn’t a linear walk from one boss that can be melee’d down in about a minute to the other one.

Mordule Standish.2371:

I agreed with the general gist of OPs post. He could have stated as much without the distasteful boasting. Reads the second time as thinly veiled bragging. The replies to other poster’s replies only boosts my opinion of that.

It’s called humor. I include it in my posts because I’m funny. I’m not an arrogant monkey, I’m just trying to be serious and humorous on a level that keeps people engaged while creating a healthy discussion. I could sit and type banal regurgitations all day long while complaining about how I’m not having fun, but that wouldn’t accomplish much.

“Don’t make an opinion on me if you don’t know nothin’ about me” – Lil’ Wayne

There was more to the post than you apparently read. Maybe go back and read it again. I made a point to speak to exactly what you just stated.

This game was developed for a certain crowd. Most MMO’s seem to be following this same trend.

The fact is that the content is too casual for some people. You may be one of these people but there is a large portion of the player base here that still feels that the content is a challenge and far beyond trivial.

Bright.9160:

All I’m asking is challenging, fun, rewarding content that isn’t a linear walk from one boss that can be melee’d down in about a minute to the other one.

If you are not relegating yourself to only PvE, there is plenty of that to be found.

To add, I could see how some would find the PvE lacking. Though, I find that to be in all games. Personally, I want difficulty to come from being outsmarted by what I am fighting, not just have to press skills at the right time (that is learned and becomes predictable). In this way, I find PvE in general lacking in the challenge I desire. At least until AI is improved to near-human levels of creativity.

Antara.3189:

Masked Paradigm are you the dude from GW1 who used to tell me he would run UW, FoW, DoA with henchman as a paragon with ease? You surely sound like him if that’s not the case. It wasn’t a bad thing cause I thought his attitude about everything was hilarious. Just big hoss who could do any aspect solo with no problem. He was the guy doing Hall of Heroes with Henchman. Man I miss that guy…

I never played GW1. Seems I missed out, though.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Mordule Standish.2371:

I agreed with the general gist of OPs post. He could have stated as much without the distasteful boasting. Reads the second time as thinly veiled bragging. The replies to other poster’s replies only boosts my opinion of that.

“Don’t make an opinion on me if you don’t know nothin’ about me” – Lil’ Wayne

LOL

OP: Complains game is too easy, plays Easy Mode class.

Until they add more hard content for you to play, maybe try out an engineer that doesn’t use grenades or bombs?

XelNigma.6315:

OP: Complains game is too easy, plays Easy Mode class.

Until they add more hard content for you to play, maybe try out an engineer that doesn’t use grenades or bombs?

I’ll sell my Batmobile and drive to work in a 1984 Honda Civic because fixing valve seals on the side of the highway is more challenging than speeding past cop cars.

Kichwas.7152:

Yep.

There are games made for 17 year olds who skip school to play 16 hours a day, make spreadsheets to min/max, and rage at the screen over a 0.1% difference between X and Y.

This game is not one of those games.

This is the game for that kid above once she or he hits over 30, has a kid, a job, and plays here and there while looking for an easy way to chat with her or his mates about the events of the day.

Our spreadsheets are devoted to the quarterly statement for management, we skip work because the kid got sick and we clock in 16 hours for less wages than we should get, and we rage at the screen over the 1% taking 90% of the fruits of our labor.

We don’t care for Farmville either, we want an action MMO, and now we have one.

Thank you for finding the words I could not.
This game is built more for the casual or the recovering hardcore player.
Though I’ll probably get flak for stating this, I think that was the ‘revolution’ part of what ANet’s failed marketing tried to convey.

There are games for hardcore players, then for the casuals there are games but they aren’t as engaging.
This one takes some engaging elements and puts them in a system friendly to casuals.

Yes currently the hardcore base is left out in the cold, but remember how long it took GW to make up their hard mode and other instances the hardcore people liked?
Eventually I see this happening, but not soon.

Then people can complain about how they’re bored with that and how rare skins are so devalued because all the hardcore folks are putting them in the trading post! (tongue placed firmly in cheek, please take no offense!)

GW2 is just trying something new, well to them at least I figure, but they are trying to make some differences that might or might not work out 1-3 years from now.
As a casual player I don’t mind the pace in which this is going, but then again I don’t eat up new content fast.

Both sides are correct that there’s always room for improvement and change. I too would like to see the explorable modes in all dungeons get some form of overhaul in terms of boss dynamics. Not because of some need for hardcore, but rather because it shows the devs still look at ‘older’ content and update them too. Rozgar The Forge was a fun example of what I like to see. Have the boss mix up what hurts him the most and what can be effective against him. Will there eventually be a beatable pattern? Of course, but we’ll at least reduce the discussions over “Zerk only” or (insert other cookie cutter build) only and maybe open up things that the “broken” classes could shine in.

Though honestly I’m just the outsider when it comes to discussion of dungeons seeing as how I need to finish the Koda one and Crucible in story mode.

The game is good, but does still have ways to go. That’s kind of the exciting and frustrating thing for MMOs. None of them are perfect right out of the box and experience their own Living Story with every patch and update.