Guild Wars 2

^^ Way to make a blanket statement. At that age group you mention, 16-25, almost everyone I know is a full-time student. And you’re off-topic.

Bastien.1645:

Lanfear I honestly think a lot of people who play MMOs quite sadly and simply have no life. I know that sound really harsh but it’s true, youth unemployment is at an all time high and for a lot of people between the ages of 16-25, a game like WoW/GW/LoL is the only “goal” they have due to lack of opportunities, they create this artificial goal due to lack of career/life progression and they use getting that next “purple” as an incentive to keep living.

Except that the age of the average gamer is now over 30.

If you have the time to read through a long post, then see my thread here. We are always discussing what the problem is but i believe there are very straight forward and “possible” and concrete solutions by changing up PvE, without touching classes and balance, but it will be lots of work https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/WvW-PvE-Balance-PvE-Zerker-Meta/

Yenn.9185:

^^ Way to make a blanket statement. At that age group you mention, 16-25, almost everyone I know is a full-time student. And you’re off-topic.

Implying that students have a lot to do /is a full time job….

Vayne.8563:

Bastien.1645:

Lanfear I honestly think a lot of people who play MMOs quite sadly and simply have no life. I know that sound really harsh but it’s true, youth unemployment is at an all time high and for a lot of people between the ages of 16-25, a game like WoW/GW/LoL is the only “goal” they have due to lack of opportunities, they create this artificial goal due to lack of career/life progression and they use getting that next “purple” as an incentive to keep living.

Except that the age of the average gamer is now over 30.

That makes it even worse, substitute what I said to being stuck in a dead end job. I’ve known guys who were single, not interested in meeting women or unable to meet women and would literally spend half their salary on LoL skins every month because they had nothing better to do. They were also in the typical 9-5 job with little pressure/targets (think IT Support) and no additional responsibility/stress outside of work.

If you have a theory of what causes this kind of “rage” amongst on-line communities then myself and a lot of people would love to hear it.

Bastien what are you even talking about? This is a relevant topic and there is mostly constructive discussion going on here and you’re berating MMO gamers on an MMO forum? Please stop posting before the thread gets locked.

Gnat.9405:

Bastien what are you even talking about? This is a relevant topic and there is mostly constructive discussion going on here and you’re berating MMO gamers on an MMO forum? Please stop posting before the thread gets locked.

I’m not berating any one, I’m an MMO player myself and have been for the last 8 years. We could say the same thing about CoD gamers and MOBA gamers (heck the last one is the worst). I don’t feel I’m derailing the topic, if it’s okay to give examples of “good times” in a dungeon group then the bad times should be spoken about as well.

If ArenaNet wanted some stats variety, they would never have created a 3-offensive-stats gear. It would optimally have been 2 offensive and 1 defensive stats or 1 offensive and 2 defensive stats.

And they actually wanted three-offensive-stats since they made Berserker, Rampager and the new Assassin stats repartitions. So yeah, Berserker is in the loop.

Given the road Anet is taking, Berserker is never going to be worse than PVT or cleric: at worse these stats will be equal for skilled people. Put some fight in there? Zerk wins. Remove fights? They’re equal.

I agree , I have no life because I wear a berserker set .
That sounds great , PVT users have Gf , a job and friends .

Bastien.1645:

Lanfear I honestly think a lot of people who play MMOs quite sadly and simply have no life. I know that sound really harsh but it’s true, youth unemployment is at an all time high and for a lot of people between the ages of 16-25, a game like WoW/GW/LoL is the only “goal” they have due to lack of opportunities, they create this artificial goal due to lack of career/life progression and they use getting that next “purple” as an incentive to keep living.

This isn’t derailing the topic? Sure.

a t s e, you are my new favorite. I think my gf might leave me if I take my cond Necro berserker.

It’s crazy because going through these forums you would think that player kicks and elitism is rampant in the game, but in reality, anyone can get into any group most of the time. It’s on very rare occasion that a dungeon group is looking for such specific gear parameters, and most of the time those groups are left unfilled, or filled with people who just play what they want anyway.

I think clerics going into the dungeon forums to complain before they went into the LFG tool to actually play has created the berserker vs. the world stigma. The content isn’t even hard, it’s just that people want to run W/Mo in Shadow Form speed clears Cleric gear in groups that seek max DPS.

Bastien.1645:

IndigoSundown.5419:

a t s e.9614:

Ok , I need to stop using those forums , because I don’t understand 90% of the people that use them and it will cause conflict . If enjoying content for some people is clearing a dungeon in 2 hours instead of 10min then yes . I truly need to stop reading those forums . Considering clearing a dungeon faster will give you the end reward faster , it does really makes no sense to stay in those dungeons for 2 hours , omg i need to stop reading it now .

Let’s say a person’s goal in the game is to enjoy himself. He’s doing a dungeon with friends. The group is on Mumble, chatting, cutting up and generally enjoying each other’s company. No one is in a hurry. No one give’s a rat’s behind about getting pixelated rewards. They’re having fun with each other and that is their reward. Under those circumstances, a longer experience is more fun than racing through it.

My best memory in GW was a run in the Fissure of Woe. The heals monk had to log out due to migraine, a couple of others left. Five of us completed the clear, and it took us hours. I’d not had so much fun in a game before, and haven’t since.

Migraine was OP on Monks if you didn’t bring hex removal. Can’t blame him for leaving!

The prot monk was running Divert Hexes, which unfortunately had no effect on an irl migraine. Sometimes having a life is painful.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Bastien.1645:

IndigoSundown.5419:

a t s e.9614:

Ok , I need to stop using those forums , because I don’t understand 90% of the people that use them and it will cause conflict . If enjoying content for some people is clearing a dungeon in 2 hours instead of 10min then yes . I truly need to stop reading those forums . Considering clearing a dungeon faster will give you the end reward faster , it does really makes no sense to stay in those dungeons for 2 hours , omg i need to stop reading it now .

Let’s say a person’s goal in the game is to enjoy himself. He’s doing a dungeon with friends. The group is on Mumble, chatting, cutting up and generally enjoying each other’s company. No one is in a hurry. No one give’s a rat’s behind about getting pixelated rewards. They’re having fun with each other and that is their reward. Under those circumstances, a longer experience is more fun than racing through it.

My best memory in GW was a run in the Fissure of Woe. The heals monk had to log out due to migraine, a couple of others left. Five of us completed the clear, and it took us hours. I’d not had so much fun in a game before, and haven’t since.

Migraine was OP on Monks if you didn’t bring hex removal. Can’t blame him for leaving!

The prot monk was running Divert Hexes, which unfortunately had no effect on an irl migraine. Sometimes having a life is painful.

haha I hear that. As someone that suffers from migraines on a regular occasion (2 – 3 times a month), I can only agree with that statement. It really sucks.

I don’t get mad at ‘zerkers (other than when they don’t have the skill to operate one in the current encounter and keep face planting over and over…).

But I don’t run pure ‘zerker either. I’m not a teenager any more. I can give the game my absolute full attention, know fight mechanics intimately, be on maximum alert for the dreaded red circles… and still miss a key dodge from time to time. I build accordingly to give my team the best contribution I can offer. Maybe that means I lose about 10% DPS (I’m aggressive, just not suicidal) but I’m also keeping my active uptime percentage in the high nineties. I try to make up for that by knowing if I can’t be the pointy end of the spear, I need to bring major utility and support to the fight so that those who are hardcore ‘zerker ’razors’ can stay on task kicking buttock 100% of the time, even when they slip and miss a dodge now an then.

My frustration with ’zerkers is the occasional pig-headedness in the face of reality that some encounters just DO NOT favor it. You get this vibe “Zerker or GTFO” when if they are really as skilled as they think it should be “The RIGHT gear for the job or GTFO.”

Tequatle has somethings to say about your zerker armor.

Tequatle prefers a mix of Soldier’s and Zerker.

Some people simply don’t want all their character to be DPS focused. Having six out of seven of my characters wearing zerker only, I can relate to that, even though I love my condition necro (don’t worry, I won’t invade your pretty zerker party with her). It is simply something that is needed right now, even though I would prefer to play with conditions with my Ranger, too, and to give some Healing Power to my Guardian.
My best friend is struggling with that because he wants to play a more supporting role, but it is not really viable right now.

But really, the only problem I have is with the people that are full zerker and then complain that some new boss is “gimmicky” and use “cheap mechanics” because it kills them with an unavoidable one hit on their stupidly low HP (because you are supposed to block or to resist the attack). It is stupid to limit the mechanics of a new boss just to avoid this kind of whining, IMO, and I hope ANet never does that. I don’t care if almost all of my characters also suffer when that happens, that’s why my nearly immortal conditionmancer is for ;P

I don’t think it is about nerfing zerker, but about fixing everything else for PvE (specially conditions). Oh, and separating PvE balance from PvP balance.

Razor.9872:

Tequatle has somethings to say about your zerker armor.

Tequatle prefers a mix of Soldier’s and Zerker.

Because Tequatl cant be critically hit and that’s a cheap boss mechanic, however somewhat logical because its size.

What it comes down to is the terrible boss AI and their kittened Defiant buff. Defiant is the clear indicator that dungeons were rushed and because of that were stuck with this ridiculous meta.

Berserker’s gear works everywhere in pve, not just dungeons. Saying that just dungeons team failed is a bit too far streched, whole anet gameplay design team failed. Also thank “everyone gets rewarded for his participation” for very deep end game content in open world.

I’ll never understand topics like this. Don’t want to use berserker gear? Don’t. It’s your choice to play how you want.

Get kicked from an “experienced only speed run” group because you aren’t using berserkers? That’s cool too because it’s their choice to play how they want, too.

You’re free to play how you want, and organize whatever types of groups you want to organize. And others can do the same. you do not have to play together if your goals conflict.

The problem comes from the players who don’t wanna use berserkers but feel compelled to do so. No one is forcing you to play zerkers but please don’t join a speedrun/zerker parties.

If you feel compelled to do anything in a game like this, that’s your problem to be blunt. People have posted videos using the LFG tool showing that it is very easy to find a group for dungeons advertising “berserker gear not required” or something similar and the groups fill in seconds. There is literally no good excuse for feeling pressured to do something you dont want to do.

Could it be that when people hate on zerker gear, they aren’t really hating on zerker gear? Instead, they’re responding to the relatively shallow gameplay that is most PvE where doing damage as quickly as possible is simply more effective than anything else?

Gibson.4036:

Could it be that when people hate on zerker gear, they aren’t really hating on zerker gear? Instead, they’re responding to the relatively shallow gameplay that is most PvE where doing damage as quickly as possible is simply more effective than anything else?

It doesn’t justify hating on players who uses zerkers. The frustration due to the shallow gameplay of PVE shouldn’t be shifted to those that are OK with the gameplay of doing dmg as quickly as possible.

Skipping the whole thread but …. I guess the answer is yes. I mean the game itself only cares about damage for things like events and credit for killing something. So the feedback from the game is that damage is the only thing that matters and what is better than Berserker for that?

I read the whole thread, and while I have my own opinions about whether or not ‘zerker gear was intended, I don’t think ’zerker gear is always the best.

I do have a set of ‘zerker gear for those confrontations that require direct DPS spam until dead, but there’s a lot of run-of-the-mill champs and vets that now have the “defiant” boon that makes ’zerker gear less than optimal. I also run Rabid gear, PVT gear, and pure condi gear. Everything depends on the encounter.

The real issue isn’t the gear, it’s the idea that some people have that it is the ONLY gear you need, and that it’s better than all the rest. It has it’s place, but it’s becoming increasingly useless in a lot of encounters.

Ashabhi.1365:

It has it’s place, but it’s becoming increasingly useless in a lot of encounters.

Should probably start listing them. Let’s keep it PvE.

Ashabhi.1365:

I read the whole thread, and while I have my own opinions about whether or not ‘zerker gear was intended, I don’t think ’zerker gear is always the best.

I do have a set of ‘zerker gear for those confrontations that require direct DPS spam until dead, but there’s a lot of run-of-the-mill champs and vets that now have the “defiant” boon that makes ’zerker gear less than optimal. I also run Rabid gear, PVT gear, and pure condi gear. Everything depends on the encounter.

The real issue isn’t the gear, it’s the idea that some people have that it is the ONLY gear you need, and that it’s better than all the rest. It has it’s place, but it’s becoming increasingly useless in a lot of encounters.

Champions have always had Defiant and veterans don’t but I don’t see what that has to do with berserker gear. CC is generally not worth using in PvE anyway I wish that wasn’t true. The only time it’s felt remotely useful is when you are forced to use it for enemies like Sotzz.

I personally think the zerker set up is bad because it makes build variety shallow. If you look at speed clear builds they usually focus on might and vulnerability stacking, unique class buffs (ranger’s Spotter for 170 precision, warrior’s Empower Allies for 170 power) and flat DPS increase traits (15% more damage when adrenaline is full, 10% more damage when flanking the target, 10% more damage when endurance is full, 10% damage from Frost Spirit, 15% more crit damage from warrior’s banner). The only thing that begins to matter is DPS.

Then you see videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGJylZBKmos

That’s a level 80 dungeon. That ranger is using a glass build. That is a boss encounter that has a unique mechanic that is intended to give unique gameplay (rather than just DPS you are supposed to shoot the lasers and usually that means having to jump back up mid fight because the shield recharges). The doesn’t use his evasion skills on the weapon (sword 2 and 3), he doesn’t dodge once, he doesn’t reposition his character and he doesn’t even go down. Guild Wars 2 is a game built around active combat. You aren’t supposed to stand in one place, yet that’s exactly what is happening thanks to the zerker meta. Conversely other builds are working much harder and utilising the full breadth of the game’s combat mechanics to complete content because they can’t auto attack in melee range to a win in less than 30 seconds. The most efficient builds for most content are so efficient, they make the content easier.

It’s two problems.

1. Zerker builds are so powerful they trivialise content. Being powerful is fine, rewarding glass is fine, but no cap was put on crit damage and the devs underestimated what % damage stacking could accomplish so now we see static gameplay. Crit damage needs a hard cap.

1. Alternate builds are too weak. Condition damage is a weak stat and has players compete with each other. Unlike power builds, condition builds don’t have equal access to three DPS options (power builds have power precision and crit damage, condition builds have condition damage, precision to trigger condition procs and the third option is condition duration but there is no gear that hands out condition duration like you can get crit damage). The game is very lopsided in favour of berserker builds. If you are going to offer a variety of build types, it can’t be your intention to have one of them be dramatically better than the others.

@Shiren

I dont think you understand what happened in that video. Normally in a casual run you would probably have to dodge or reposition to avoid the tooth. The reason that wasnt needed was because of cc and aegis from the guard. And that fight is designed to be a dps check. Running up and down doing lasers multiple times is not fun or good design.

I love the blanket statement fallacy of ‘zerker trivializes content’. Never gets old.

Vayne.8563:

There are several reasons why people complain about berserker.

Let’s pretend that you live in another country than then US which many players do…and even in the US not everyone has the same quality machine or connection. One guy in my guild is in Montana and has satelite. Sometimes the lag makes it impossible for him to time dodges. I’m in Tasmania. I have similar problems…not all the time but sometimes. Often enough to want a bit of toughness and vitality for the hits I might survive.

So now, you basically have a situation where I’m not helping the team enough if I don’t wear berserker, but I’m not helping myself enough if I do. The game won’t be as fun for me.

It’s not always about optimizing your build, because surviving as a berserker means that you have to have a certain level a skill, level of hardware, level of connection. What percentage of players have all three?

So if people then exclude others from their parties based on not having one or the other…how does that create a better game or better community?

Fortunately I’ve joined a guild that’s happy to take anyone into any dungeon with any build they have. And you know…we clear content just fine.

Maybe not as efficiently as the zerker warrior parties, but I’d wager we have as much fun as anyone.

Google, get some fiber up in Montana please. Oh wait wrong forum.

Aerlen.5326:

a t s e.9614:

So you have to accept it , it’s berserker or gtfo .

And that’s why I hate zerker elitists :|

I don’t think zerker should be nerfed, I just don’t think it’s playstyle is for everyone.

I don’t complain Overpowered-ness vs. Underpowered-ness; my argument is it locks everyone in to one set of armor. I go thematic with my armor choices to preclude being bored to tears – but I know my gear is sub-optimal, so I stay out of high-risk PUG runs as a result.

Other options just need to be of value – and I’m not saying they need to be slanted toward the Trinity.

hybrid.5027:

I love the blanket statement fallacy of ‘zerker trivializes content’. Never gets old.

Content has to remain trivial, to support ’zerkers, is more accurate.

God of War style gameplay in an MMO, is absurd. MMORPGs are (supposed to be) about tactics, roles and community.

It’s like screaming into an abyss anymore. Nearly the entire MMO playerbase, is sitting in MOBAs, dying for a good game… Millions of players, super old crusty folks from as far back as 2010. Desperate for a good PvP match with gear they earned from dungeons or raids; or maybe finally using that gear to kill the next progression boss and pose for a screenshot next to it’s corpse…

Laziness, stupidity and greed are powerful things.

a t s e.9614:

There is a weakness in the berserker setup .
You must be skilled enough to wear it because you have no defensive stats on it . The gears are perfectly balanced , defensive gear is more forgiving but does less damage .

And yet every 5 sig warrior wears CoF Armor and I am pretty sure they didn’t choose the carrion attribute-set.

I personally wear PvT + Zerker Accessoires and zerker weapons. I just can’t be bothered to “upgrade” my armor to berserk-stats.

Shiren.9532:

I personally think the zerker set up is bad because it makes build variety shallow. If you look at speed clear builds they usually focus on might and vulnerability stacking, unique class buffs (ranger’s Spotter for 170 precision, warrior’s Empower Allies for 170 power) and flat DPS increase traits (15% more damage when adrenaline is full, 10% more damage when flanking the target, 10% more damage when endurance is full, 10% damage from Frost Spirit, 15% more crit damage from warrior’s banner). The only thing that begins to matter is DPS.

Then you see videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGJylZBKmos

That’s a level 80 dungeon. That ranger is using a glass build. That is a boss encounter that has a unique mechanic that is intended to give unique gameplay (rather than just DPS you are supposed to shoot the lasers and usually that means having to jump back up mid fight because the shield recharges). The doesn’t use his evasion skills on the weapon (sword 2 and 3), he doesn’t dodge once, he doesn’t reposition his character and he doesn’t even go down. Guild Wars 2 is a game built around active combat. You aren’t supposed to stand in one place, yet that’s exactly what is happening thanks to the zerker meta. Conversely other builds are working much harder and utilising the full breadth of the game’s combat mechanics to complete content because they can’t auto attack in melee range to a win in less than 30 seconds. The most efficient builds for most content are so efficient, they make the content easier.

It’s two problems.

…

1. …but there is no gear that hands out condition duration like you can get crit damage). The game is very lopsided in favour of berserker builds…

precisely this^.

KarateKid.5648:

Shiren.9532:

I personally think the zerker set up is bad because it makes build variety shallow. If you look at speed clear builds they usually focus on might and vulnerability stacking, unique class buffs (ranger’s Spotter for 170 precision, warrior’s Empower Allies for 170 power) and flat DPS increase traits (15% more damage when adrenaline is full, 10% more damage when flanking the target, 10% more damage when endurance is full, 10% damage from Frost Spirit, 15% more crit damage from warrior’s banner). The only thing that begins to matter is DPS.

Then you see videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGJylZBKmos

That’s a level 80 dungeon. That ranger is using a glass build. That is a boss encounter that has a unique mechanic that is intended to give unique gameplay (rather than just DPS you are supposed to shoot the lasers and usually that means having to jump back up mid fight because the shield recharges). The doesn’t use his evasion skills on the weapon (sword 2 and 3), he doesn’t dodge once, he doesn’t reposition his character and he doesn’t even go down. Guild Wars 2 is a game built around active combat. You aren’t supposed to stand in one place, yet that’s exactly what is happening thanks to the zerker meta. Conversely other builds are working much harder and utilising the full breadth of the game’s combat mechanics to complete content because they can’t auto attack in melee range to a win in less than 30 seconds. The most efficient builds for most content are so efficient, they make the content easier.

It’s two problems.

…

1. …but there is no gear that hands out condition duration like you can get crit damage). The game is very lopsided in favour of berserker builds…

precisely this^.

Except that in 90% of other situations if you are unable to dodge and get out of harm’s way as a zerker you are dead.
That’s why the stereotypical zerker floor war appeared.

Harper.4173:

KarateKid.5648:

Shiren.9532:

I personally think the zerker set up is bad because it makes build variety shallow. If you look at speed clear builds they usually focus on might and vulnerability stacking, unique class buffs (ranger’s Spotter for 170 precision, warrior’s Empower Allies for 170 power) and flat DPS increase traits (15% more damage when adrenaline is full, 10% more damage when flanking the target, 10% more damage when endurance is full, 10% damage from Frost Spirit, 15% more crit damage from warrior’s banner). The only thing that begins to matter is DPS.

Then you see videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGJylZBKmos

That’s a level 80 dungeon. That ranger is using a glass build. That is a boss encounter that has a unique mechanic that is intended to give unique gameplay (rather than just DPS you are supposed to shoot the lasers and usually that means having to jump back up mid fight because the shield recharges). The doesn’t use his evasion skills on the weapon (sword 2 and 3), he doesn’t dodge once, he doesn’t reposition his character and he doesn’t even go down. Guild Wars 2 is a game built around active combat. You aren’t supposed to stand in one place, yet that’s exactly what is happening thanks to the zerker meta. Conversely other builds are working much harder and utilising the full breadth of the game’s combat mechanics to complete content because they can’t auto attack in melee range to a win in less than 30 seconds. The most efficient builds for most content are so efficient, they make the content easier.

It’s two problems.

…

1. …but there is no gear that hands out condition duration like you can get crit damage). The game is very lopsided in favour of berserker builds…

precisely this^.

Except that in 90% of other situations if you are unable to dodge and get out of harm’s way as a zerker you are dead.
That’s why the stereotypical zerker floor war appeared.

Yah, I was unclear in my meaning due to being on phone at the time.

I was agreeing on the first sentence – there’s no alternative gear for condi that is similar to the value in dishing damage that berserker’s does. Again, just reiterating my disdain for being almost funneled into one set of gear due to lack of optimal options in the other gear. I included the second sentence due to laziness only.

Shiren.9532:

I personally think the zerker set up is bad because it makes build variety shallow. If you look at speed clear builds they usually focus on might and vulnerability stacking, unique class buffs (ranger’s Spotter for 170 precision, warrior’s Empower Allies for 170 power) and flat DPS increase traits (15% more damage when adrenaline is full, 10% more damage when flanking the target, 10% more damage when endurance is full, 10% damage from Frost Spirit, 15% more crit damage from warrior’s banner). The only thing that begins to matter is DPS.

While I think zerker is working as intended, I know stacking is working as intended. All you have to do is look at the short range of all the group benefit skills and traits and this is evident. If these group benefits had ranges like Aegis in GW, then the game design would not punish spreading out and moving quite so much.