Guild Wars 2

Rhetorical questions are powerful tools of oratory, when used well. Though in the case of a rousing speech, they tend to be followed by stirring answers, not simply left to hang

Anyway, the general thrust of this thread seems to be the debate between anonymity vs. being known as a Specialist, with a substrata as to whether Specialists are needed at all.

I suppose anonymity will protect the Specialists from stalking and harassment (and it’s a sad, sad thing that such is expected to happen). Yet it will also lead to (baseless imo) accusations that ANet has secret police, that any idea not implemented minutes after the suggester has posted them has been quashed and hidden, etc.

Personally if I were to apply — again, I am not, because I don’t want reading these forums to feel like a required chore, you all have no idea how strong my avoidance mechanisms can be — I wouldn’t care about a title or badge. I’d be leery of the part about promising not to leak privileged info, not because I can’t keep things confidential but because that might mean I was getting spoilers. And I’d be doing it to be helpful, not to be publicly recognized. Egad, I loathe the idea of fame, you can’t just enjoy life if everyone’s watching your every move!

Still, the people applying have to have a good idea what they’re in for now. More power to them, and I’ll sway to the keep-them-known side. (I could sway back. I’m very torn on this).

Gaile Gray.6029:

KarlaGray — The comments about forum participation percentages do not represent Guild Wars 2 forum statistics but are industry numbers. Our forums are more active and include a larger percentage of accounts holders than the average game. We apologize for any misimpressions that that comment may have created.

Ty for the reply.
So if I understood that correctly (not quite certain what the part on industry numbers is referring to), it means forum feedback is treated as representative of the playerbase as a whole and not considered mere venting by the ‘vocal minority’.
I’ll be quoting you directly whenever I come across arguments backed up by those dubious numbers then, if you don’t mind.

@Tobias Trueflight, while I have nothing against Wiki, it ultimately comes down to how the phrase is typically used today, not how it was used in the past, and that usage is laid down in dictionaries and grammar books. Modern usage of language tends to differ from the past and is often subject to changes through use. Here’s a paragraph from the Oxford Online Dictionary on your concern:

The original meaning of the phrase beg the question belongs to the field of logic and is a translation of Latin petitio principii, literally meaning ‘laying claim to a principle’, i.e. assuming something that ought to be proved first, as in the following sentence: by devoting such a large part of the budget for the fight against drug addiction to education, we are begging the question of its significance in the battle against drugs. To some traditionalists this is still the only correct meaning. However, over the last 100 years or so another, more general use has arisen: ‘invite an obvious question’, as in some definitions of mental illness beg the question of what constitutes normal behaviour. This is by far the commonest use today and is the usual one in modern standard English.
(http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/beg)

Thank you for the heads up, however. I wasn’t that well acquinted with the 2nd definition of the phrase until you brought it up.

@Gaile
One question keeps coming in my mind: Why?
What is the point of the program? When I first read about it I thought it’s going to be a carbon-copy of the DAoC Team Lead program. That one sortaaaaaa worked. Only I can’t see it work here due to the very very strict no-information-shared-ever policy the dev team is going by.

Short summary for those who never played DAoC:

• Team Leads were recruited from a classes’ forum population / active population.
• Every so often (initially monthly) they compiled a short report, 5 or so questions based on what came up most often in their forums.
• The devs would give short answers to these questions 3-4 weeks later. Frequently this was “No information at this time”, but some information did come up, as did requests to drop the issue because nothing is planned short-term.
• This was in turn posted to the forums by the team leads.

This could – in theory – work if the policy was changed. But then changing it would evaporate any reason to have it, as then we’d be able to openly read about current development.

But without that, why have forum specialists? What can they do? They don’t have any admin rights, they don’t act as a dev <→ specialist <→ players intermediary, they don’t represent ANet, nothing really. At least as far as I can tell.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Astral Projections.7320:

Is there really any reason to make public who the forum specialist are since they mostly are there to report back to ANet? I don’t see why someone needs a tag for that. Having a tag opens up possibilities of them being constantly harassed about being white knights and ANet toadies. Imo, it would be better not to have people publicly labeled as being “semi official” when they have no official function other than collate information and report or linking official posts (which anyone can do).

That is a really thought-provoking comment!

What do others feel about this? I’m very interested in feedback on the subject of making specialists public or not.

I think it should be an option that the forum specialists can set as a flag on their own or another, separate Forum Specialist.

Some might want to go for the pros and cons of openly being a forum specialist – let them. Some might want to keep that in the background and prefer to take the approach of that choice’s pros and cons – let them.

It’ll be more work for somebody on the back end, but if one is going to do something, do it right, do it well and don’t leave unaccounted variables.

@Carighan: since it may be a while before Gaile returns, I’ll answer at least in part.

They are to be primarily information gatheres for ANet. They will read the forums and forward any ideas that seem sound and any other useful feedback.

Source
“The purpose of this program is to invite highly engaged community members to serve as volunteer “Forum Specialists” within their area of expertise. As specialists, these volunteers will answer questions in a player-to-player (unofficial) sense, flag posts in breach of the Forum Code of Conduct, and coalesce and transmit player feedback to the ArenaNet Forum Communications Team.”

The part highlighted is their primary duty to ANet. The rest is acting as good forum members, sharing their expertise in their area of special knowledge. Like all forum members they can flag posts that break the forum rules.

Meh, that leaves me with wondering why you wouldn’t want professionally paid in-house CMs for that, even if it means you can hire only a few. You still need those to second-level process the forum specialist information and double-check the sent-in information against everything on the forum to judge whether there’s no specialist-bias produced by what is sent in.

I get that it’s a way to get more CMs cheap, but it’s just going to end up putting more stress on the existent (paid) CMs.

Which brings me back to the “why?”. Corporate decision, maybe.

You have to wonder…

If the Devs have been reading the forums all this time, as stated many times, will they now no longer peruse the forums?

If they will still be perusing, what is the purpose of the Forum Specialists? To unofficially ‘officially’ answer player questions? Many, many forum-users do so now.

If they won’t be perusing the forums, so the Devs have more time for other endeavors, then the FSs will be quite handy, I’m sure.

I hope the program does not cause more ill than good. Good luck.

Gaile you do realize that your so called “forum specialists” will get verbally murdered the second they join any hot topic related to balance,wvw,spvp or rewards as well as expansion and QoL ?

The only reason people pay respect (sometimes) to the specific post that is defending certain feature or part of the game is because of the staff member badges you people have.

I can already see how this is backfiring horribly just looking at my crystal ball here.I can already see how forum trolls are sharpening their claws out there eager to toy with the fresh meat.

Anyway – Good luck. (Good Intention but Bad Execution – ArenaNet 2014-2015®)

P.S. your forum white-knights will have friends,families and followers who will try to back them up and that is when the hell will get loose 4 real.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Gaile Gray.6029:

KarlaGray — The comments about forum participation percentages do not represent Guild Wars 2 forum statistics but are industry numbers. Our forums are more active and include a larger percentage of accounts holders than the average game. We apologize for any misimpressions that that comment may have created.

Ty for the reply.
So if I understood that correctly (not quite certain what the part on industry numbers is referring to), it means forum feedback is treated as representative of the playerbase as a whole and not considered mere venting by the ‘vocal minority’.
I’ll be quoting you directly whenever I come across arguments backed up by those dubious numbers then, if you don’t mind.

@Tobias Trueflight, while I have nothing against Wiki, it ultimately comes down to how the phrase is typically used today, not how it was used in the past, and that usage is laid down in dictionaries and grammar books. Modern usage of language tends to differ from the past and is often subject to changes through use. Here’s a paragraph from the Oxford Online Dictionary on your concern:

The original meaning of the phrase beg the question belongs to the field of logic and is a translation of Latin petitio principii, literally meaning ‘laying claim to a principle’, i.e. assuming something that ought to be proved first, as in the following sentence: by devoting such a large part of the budget for the fight against drug addiction to education, we are begging the question of its significance in the battle against drugs. To some traditionalists this is still the only correct meaning. However, over the last 100 years or so another, more general use has arisen: ‘invite an obvious question’, as in some definitions of mental illness beg the question of what constitutes normal behaviour. This is by far the commonest use today and is the usual one in modern standard English.
(http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/beg)

Thank you for the heads up, however. I wasn’t that well acquinted with the 2nd definition of the phrase until you brought it up.

So you not only twist everyone else’s words, you twist Gaile’s as well. Good job that.

They didn’t use the words that forum members are treated as representatives of the whole. All she said was these forums provide a higher participation rate than the average MMO.

Those two things don’t equate.

Basically, if they hear something from the forums and see something different when they look at metrics in game, I’m pretty sure the metrics will trump the forums.

It is entirely possible that a bigger percentage of the playerbase reads and or participates in this forum compared to other MMOs.

But since Gaile hasn’t stated what that percentage is, it’s still likely a minority and possibly a large minority.

I preceed the paragraph intentionally with ‘if I understood that correctly’, yet you accuse me of ‘twisting everyone’s words’. Rather than ‘not understanding it correctly’, I am apparently deliberatly assigning false interpretations. A rather sound value judgement, and nothing less to be expected from the veteran of shady forum maneuvers.

I was asking for clarification on whether forums are being held as representative or not, but apparently she has not given quite that information.
As you’re not Gaile nor do you represent an(y) official source of information, you need not toss your guesswork as some sort of replacement answer for my perfectly legit question.
I also fail to see any relevance my question has with other mmos, which is why I’m not sure why reference thereto was made to start with.

I dont think you should hide forum specialists identities because i think transparency is important. They should understand they are in a position where they should be responsible. Harassment should be a minor issue aslong as they remain respectful to other forum members. You could just hide the account number but keep the forum name. This way people will have a bit more difficulty contacting them in game.

I’m looking forward to Forum Specialists taking part in topics regarding profession balances in pvp/wvw and their neutral optimistic not personal responses regarding it.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I preceed the paragraph intentionally with ‘if I understood that correctly’, yet you accuse me of ‘twisting everyone’s words’. Rather than ‘not understanding it correctly’, I am apparently deliberatly assigning false interpretations. A rather sound value judgement, and nothing less to be expected from the veteran of shady forum maneuvers.

I was asking for clarification on whether forums are being held as representative or not, but apparently she has not given quite that information.
As you’re not Gaile nor do you represent an(y) official source of information, you need not toss your guesswork as some sort of replacement answer for my perfectly legit question.
I also fail to see any relevance my question has with other mmos, which is why I’m not sure why reference thereto was made to start with.

I"m not tossing guesswork. You’re the one making the unwarranted assumption and asking if that’s true. There’s no reason to even pose the question the way you posed it, unless you were intending to steer the answer.

Why not just ask, so what percentage of the playerbase does post on these forums.

I’m pretty sure it’s not 50%. I’m relatively sure it’s not 25%. If the typical MMO has 1% and we have twice the number, we’d have 2%. Even if it were 10% it’s not a huge dent in the game’s population.

You even formulated the sentences to signal it’s an asumption rather than fact, which is perfectly fine. It’s still guesswork thou.
I merely asked for a yes or no answer.
I could have taken the implicit ‘yes’ – atfer all, initiatives such as this probably wouldn’t be happening if forums were as negligable as some posters, both official and other, fancy them to be – but an official confirmation of ‘yes, they count/are an important source of feedback’ would be a rather strong argument against all the strawmen invoking the powers of ‘silent majority’ (which, just to remind, is often used by you yourself).
It seems unlikely that a definite answer will be given at this point though.

munkiman.3068:

Donari.5237:

Except they aren’t “police.” They are data collators with no power to do Bad Things to other forum-goers. Though they are expected to be active in forum discussion, the focus is on them sharing their expertise, not telling others what to think or post.

At least that’s how I read the position description.

None of which will save them from witch hunts if the community decides to be nasty to them. So, Community. Can we try to remember that an FS is just a player who’s spent some time really learning the game and been generous enough to donate his or her time and effort to helping the devs hear what the other players are saying? Can we try to remain mature and kind? Being nice gives you less ulcers, after all, so it’s for your own health’s sake!

That’s the point really, why bother? Do we get some inside scoop? Even so, what value is it? So i know about new features and cool stuff in a game, so what?

If one is asking the questions, “why bother,” or some variation of, “what do we get out of it,” in regards to a community improvement volunteer program, whether in a game or in real life, then one should probably just walk away from the program and not look back.

One participates in such a volunteer program from a desire to help whatever community is involved. If one actually enjoys helping others in a situation such as this, finds the act of working toward the betterment of the community itself to be rewarding, then this sort of program is for you. Otherwise not.

KarlaGrey.5903:

You even formulated the sentences to signal it’s an asumption rather than fact, which is perfectly fine. It’s still guesswork thou.
I merely asked for a yes or no answer.
I could have taken the implicit ‘yes’ – atfer all, initiatives such as this probably wouldn’t be happening if forums were as negligable as some posters, both official and other, fancy them to be – but an official confirmation of ‘yes, they count/are an important source of feedback’ would be a rather strong argument against all the strawmen invoking the powers of ‘silent majority’ (which, just to remind, is often used by you yourself).
It seems unlikely that a definite answer will be given at this point though.

First of all I’ve almost never (perhaps never) used the words vocal minority or silent majority because I don’t like the implications of them.

But you will look for any angle to support your theory. If in fact, this forum has more than other forums, which have 1%, what are the odds that this forum has more than 50% participation? I’d say pretty low. That means that most players no matter what are no likely to be here. It’s a very simple calculation.

Even if we have ten times the number of forum posters as other typical forums, unlikely too, it would still only be 10% of the playerbase.

No company is going to come right out and say you guys don’t matter. It’s not going to happen. Given 1% is the industry average, and we know that we’re above the average, we can still pretty much assume less than 10% of the playing population post.

But the bottom line has always been, the most vocal forum members MAY NOT represent the bulk of people playing the game.

Pretty sure I’ve got a post of Allie’s saved up somewhere where she clearly dismisses certain arguments because ‘1%’ is not representative of the playerbase as a whole (the number was referring to the forums in general; it was a reference made in a certain thread where users discussed the results of voting on a particular issue).

Seeing I won’t be getting an official clarification on that, it appears it’s still both a yes and a no, depending on the type of feedback under discussion.

Also, you might not have used the exact words (I don’t intend on scaning past posts to prove the opposite, at least), but the underlying meaning has always been present in your arguments in various shape and form.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Pretty sure I’ve got a post of Allie’s saved up somewhere where she clearly dismisses certain arguments because ‘1%’ is not representative of the playerbase as a whole (the number was referring to the forums in general; it was a reference made in a certain thread where users discussed the results of voting on a particular issue).

Seeing I won’t be getting an official clarification on that, it appears it’s still both a yes and a no, depending on the type of feedback under discussion.

Also, you might not have used the exact words (I don’t intend on scaning past posts to prove the opposite, at least), but the underlying meaning has always been present in your arguments in various shape and form.

Nope,. you’re pretty much wrong about that. It is my belief and I’ve said so many times that we’re all minorities here. That is, no one group probably has enough people in it to be an outright majority or even a hands down winner.

People who just PvP or Just WvW exist. But they’re probably not the majority of the playerbase. Even people who just PvE and do nothing else are probably not the majority of the playerbase…at least I don’t think they are.

People who run dungeons as a main source of content, definitely not the majority of the playerbase. People who demand vertical progression, not likely a major percentage of the playerbase.

My MO isn’t to say that you’re a minority as opposed to me being a majority. My MO, and this has always been my MMO, is to get people to talk for themselves and not some perceived group.

When I talk about what I like I use the phrase me and players like me, because there are players like me. But I don’t assume or imply that’s some kind of majority and I’ve even said I don’t think it is.

You’ve got the wrong guy.

Like I said, won’t be searching.

I wonder if they would accept my app if I applied.. but Im probably on some blacklist.

cesmode.4257:

I wonder if they would accept my app if I applied.. but Im probably on some blacklist.

I think one of the requirements was “be an active player” so I think that’s where you fall down.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Did it occur to you that the details and implications of the position might be the reward people are looking for? Knowing the Devs are getting people’s thoughts and ideas is a major step in having some of those thoughts and ideas actually get implemented.

Sure, but isn’t it repeatedly said that the devs do read the forums and implement changes based on some of that feedback already? Plenty of people have summarized/consolidated things for them to read.

Ashen.2907:

If one is asking the questions, “why bother,” or some variation of, “what do we get out of it,” in regards to a community improvement volunteer program, whether in a game or in real life, then one should probably just walk away from the program and not look back.

One participates in such a volunteer program from a desire to help whatever community is involved. If one actually enjoys helping others in a situation such as this, finds the act of working toward the betterment of the community itself to be rewarding, then this sort of program is for you. Otherwise not.

I’m not of the assumption that this is a community improvement program. This is a business, looking for volunteers to do leg-work about feedback that may or may not make it into the game. That’s the continued stance that’s been taken all over the place. It’s also been said that devs read the forums a lot, is this program to eliminate that or lessen it? If so, why should people volunteer time, unofficially, to save them money so devs can do work instead of reading forums.

If i’m looking for this position, what is my motivation for giving my free-time to a business, especially so if i have no official capacity. Which ties into the question of whether or not an FS should even be publicly given a title. I already volunteer my time to the forums, i certainly don’t need to be here. What value is my role as an FS at that point? Gaile already said that my work holds no more weight than any other forumite, so what is it exactly that an FS does that improves the community?

It would be one thing if this was an intern program for a CM position. But, it just seems to me, given the information we’ve received that this is a cost cutting thing with the added benefit (a title) that appears to hold no merit for the volunteer, if anything they just put a giant target on their back. They are basically saying the feedback isn’t valuable enough to put people on staff. That seems like a real kick in the pants to me.

Then don’t apply, munkiman. If you don’t understand why people would want to apply, you are very clearly not the person they are looking for as a Specialist. It is a volunteer program, with no personal rewards at all. Whether you believe it exists or not, altruism is, indeed, a thing.

In the meantime, demanding answers because you aren’t happy with the ones you were given really just annoys people and makes you seem unreasonable. I, personally, will ask that you either pick a different question to tackle, or move on to a different topic entirely.

Hmmm

Many of the conversations here have caused me to think. While I am still excited about the program, it’s exact role within the community is causing me some apprehension.

As others have pointed out, if by this program we are essentially “releasing” the devs from pursuing the forums, and being the information gathers for them, so they can spend more time doing their jobs, then it curtails the devs involvment in the forums, and hampers the more communication efforts that have recently been implemented.

However, as I see it, the only role the Specialists really have is to look important on the forums. Nothing more. We already have our “specialists” in the various sub-forums. Names that have shown that they know what they are talking about, can offer sound advice, and are fairly objective. And from what I understand, almost none of these people are eligable, or have any desire to apply.

So would an Account Specialists input into a thread hold more weight then Inculpatus cedo? Or a Lore Specialists input be more valuable then Konig Des Todes? Or Purple Miku for the Warrior profession? Wanze for the economy? And so on and so forth.

So if this is indeed the case, the Specialist program frees the devs from their involvment in the forums and communication with us, the players, is it really something that we want to see? And if not, then why should I pay more attention to a Specialist than someone who knows their stuff, but is unable/unwilling to become a Specialist? At this point the whole Specialist program just becomes something for those applying, and being Specialists to feel good about themselves while not really offering anything of any substance to the forums, or offering anything of any substance to the devs.

munkiman.3068:

~Snip~

It would be one thing if this was an intern program for a CM position. But, it just seems to me, given the information we’ve received that this is a cost cutting thing with the added benefit (a title) that appears to hold no merit for the volunteer, if anything they just put a giant target on their back. They are basically saying the feedback isn’t valuable enough to put people on staff. That seems like a real kick in the pants to me.

I’m removing the rest of this post and going to provide a common sense answer that almost anyone could or should be able to figure out on their own. First off, I doubt the devs that currently read the forums will stop reading the forums once the FS’s start working. The FS’s primary mission, in simple terms is to gather and collate all the relevant and significant posts in either their area of expertise or chosen field and forward this to Gaile’s team who in turn will forward this information to the correct/proper Dev/Dev team, allowing the necessary individuals to see the information. IF however, you were to hire paid staff to do the same function that people are willing to volunteer to do, you have now removed that same amount of money from the DEVELOPMENT BUDGET to pay for said staffing. It is common sense that if you can have volunteers do the same work as paid staff then you go the volunteer route, whether A.net is a business or not is immaterial. Museums and non-profits do the exact same thing, as do many, many businesses world wide.

I’m far too jaded and sarcastic to wear this hat (I think), but if it were offered to me, I’d like the options to be mine, given the stated responsibilities of the role, as to whether or not I was publically open about it.

I don’t see a specific need for the transparency though. Anet’s not transparent about how it mechanically gathers all the data it gathers.

This is using the human vector as a data gathering tool, which is a dang good idea, since mechanical means of data gathering can typically be destroyed by subjectives a human deals with as a matter of course.

So, I’m all for such a program, though I suspect my frequent demeanor is too biting for the upbeat chirping-birds-and-underwater-basket-weaving candor that seems to be most desired for, at least, cherished forum input.

But hey, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe someone up there wants the input of someone prone to going ’That’s stupid because X, Y and Z – who thought this was a good idea? Were they wearing their belts on their heads that day?’ or ’That’s good because A, B and maybe C, though it needs more cowbell, provided ‘cowbell’ is less RNG and a deterministic option, even if its a grindy one’.

Heck, maybe I’ll apply after all. I’ll think about it while I hit all the things in Silverwastes.

I’d be interested as that’s where I started out in my journey with R:BF, but the experience here has been pretty jading regarding what we get and overall transparency, and notably, I do not lack a particular area of notable expertise in a broad sense of say, an entire class within the scope of all formats of the game, or all of the classes and builds and uses in one particular format of the game. Gaile is well-aware of what people want; and I believe as such so are the developers and designers.

The reality though is that there is a gross lack of transparency between ANet and its playerbase as a whole, as well as too much development fluidity. It feels like because of the “nothing’s off the table” attitude, there’s merely a massive clustercat of things on the table; so much so that nobody can seem to find any kind of direction as to what to prioritize or make first that won’t interact badly with the rest. And perhaps if someone does eventually figure out how to do it all, more ideas just get thrown on top again and the process needs to be restarted.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Then don’t apply, munkiman. If you don’t understand why people would want to apply, you are very clearly not the person they are looking for as a Specialist. It is a volunteer program, with no personal rewards at all. Whether you believe it exists or not, altruism is, indeed, a thing.

In the meantime, demanding answers because you aren’t happy with the ones you were given really just annoys people and makes you seem unreasonable. I, personally, will ask that you either pick a different question to tackle, or move on to a different topic entirely.

I don’t plan on it. I apologize if i seem demanding. I’m not, just curious as to the thought process of applicants or potential ones.

Personally, i volunteer often. It’s rewarding, fulfilling even. I just can’t see that being the case here.

Zaklex.6308:

munkiman.3068:

~Snip~

It would be one thing if this was an intern program for a CM position. But, it just seems to me, given the information we’ve received that this is a cost cutting thing with the added benefit (a title) that appears to hold no merit for the volunteer, if anything they just put a giant target on their back. They are basically saying the feedback isn’t valuable enough to put people on staff. That seems like a real kick in the pants to me.

I’m removing the rest of this post and going to provide a common sense answer that almost anyone could or should be able to figure out on their own. First off, I doubt the devs that currently read the forums will stop reading the forums once the FS’s start working. The FS’s primary mission, in simple terms is to gather and collate all the relevant and significant posts in either their area of expertise or chosen field and forward this to Gaile’s team who in turn will forward this information to the correct/proper Dev/Dev team, allowing the necessary individuals to see the information. IF however, you were to hire paid staff to do the same function that people are willing to volunteer to do, you have now removed that same amount of money from the DEVELOPMENT BUDGET to pay for said staffing. It is common sense that if you can have volunteers do the same work as paid staff then you go the volunteer route, whether A.net is a business or not is immaterial. Museums and non-profits do the exact same thing, as do many, many businesses world wide.

Non-profits do it all the time, of course, i do it constantly. Businesses offer internships (paid or unpaid) that you can use to get a leg up in the industry of your choosing. This is not that. This is a hyper-inflated sense that you’re contributing to the development of the game. When in fact, your just gathering data, that will potentially get shelved. It’s like moving rocks from one pile to the other, for no apparent reason. I tried to justify it in the past by saying you could use it on a resume or hone your skills in communication, but in reality, there would be a very small potential for any of that, it seems.

munkiman.3068:

Ashen.2907:

If one is asking the questions, “why bother,” or some variation of, “what do we get out of it,” in regards to a community improvement volunteer program, whether in a game or in real life, then one should probably just walk away from the program and not look back.

One participates in such a volunteer program from a desire to help whatever community is involved. If one actually enjoys helping others in a situation such as this, finds the act of working toward the betterment of the community itself to be rewarding, then this sort of program is for you. Otherwise not.

I’m not of the assumption that this is a community improvement program. This is a business, looking for volunteers to do leg-work about feedback that may or may not make it into the game. That’s the continued stance that’s been taken all over the place. It’s also been said that devs read the forums a lot, is this program to eliminate that or lessen it? If so, why should people volunteer time, unofficially, to save them money so devs can do work instead of reading forums.

If i’m looking for this position, what is my motivation for giving my free-time to a business, especially so if i have no official capacity. Which ties into the question of whether or not an FS should even be publicly given a title. I already volunteer my time to the forums, i certainly don’t need to be here. What value is my role as an FS at that point? Gaile already said that my work holds no more weight than any other forumite, so what is it exactly that an FS does that improves the community?

It would be one thing if this was an intern program for a CM position. But, it just seems to me, given the information we’ve received that this is a cost cutting thing with the added benefit (a title) that appears to hold no merit for the volunteer, if anything they just put a giant target on their back. They are basically saying the feedback isn’t valuable enough to put people on staff. That seems like a real kick in the pants to me.

Exactly my point.

For you this is not an opportunity to participate in a volunteer community improvement program. For you it might be worthwhile if it was an intern program for a CM position. For you the question is, “what is my motivation,” a variant of the, “what do we get out of it,” I mentioned above.

Its not for you. You are not for it. Not everything will be for everyone. That is not a bad thing. Its just the way things are.

It’s driven by folks passionate about the game.

Literally the same thing where I started out on another game. Player positions for gathering feedback, unpaid, with no reward, and no moderation tools.

For me, it slowly developed into more and more work and trust, others resigned because of the lack of privilege and reward (as I believe was their intent), and eventually turned into me being a volunteer forum administrator, lead of communications, a paid GM job that I could drop in and out of, and more.

Can that be promised here? Likely not. But one’s will to care genuinely about a game and its community can get one places.

If you’re looking for a reward, this isn’t the position for you. And you’re not gonna get anything done. If you care, maybe it will, maybe it wont; but you’ll be happy doing the work regardless.

It absolutely does paint a target on your back, however; where I started, the forums had no chat filter and “anything goes” attitude unless covered by discrimination, harassment, and excessive bullying. Day 1 for the CC’s (our title) was pretty brutal and the GM’s had to get involved in a number of incidents flagged as harassment which went unreported. Doing a good job and caring will gain you respect in the long-term. If you’re doing it for any other reason, expect absolutely nothing good to become of it.

munkiman.3068:

Ashen.2907:

If one is asking the questions, “why bother,” or some variation of, “what do we get out of it,” in regards to a community improvement volunteer program, whether in a game or in real life, then one should probably just walk away from the program and not look back.

One participates in such a volunteer program from a desire to help whatever community is involved. If one actually enjoys helping others in a situation such as this, finds the act of working toward the betterment of the community itself to be rewarding, then this sort of program is for you. Otherwise not.

I’m not of the assumption that this is a community improvement program. This is a business, looking for volunteers to do leg-work about feedback that may or may not make it into the game. That’s the continued stance that’s been taken all over the place. It’s also been said that devs read the forums a lot, is this program to eliminate that or lessen it? If so, why should people volunteer time, unofficially, to save them money so devs can do work instead of reading forums.

If i’m looking for this position, what is my motivation for giving my free-time to a business, especially so if i have no official capacity. Which ties into the question of whether or not an FS should even be publicly given a title. I already volunteer my time to the forums, i certainly don’t need to be here. What value is my role as an FS at that point? Gaile already said that my work holds no more weight than any other forumite, so what is it exactly that an FS does that improves the community?

It would be one thing if this was an intern program for a CM position. But, it just seems to me, given the information we’ve received that this is a cost cutting thing with the added benefit (a title) that appears to hold no merit for the volunteer, if anything they just put a giant target on their back. They are basically saying the feedback isn’t valuable enough to put people on staff. That seems like a real kick in the pants to me.

This is pretty cynical.

Let’s pretend that 10% of the forum suggestions are actually usable. A dev has to wade through 90% of the stuff he can’t use to get to the 10% he can use. I’m sure most of us would rather have the devs working on making content than looking through the forums trying to weed out stuff that can be used.

If I had the opportunity to take a dev away from that work so he could work on content, I’d happily do it free. Why?

Because that means he’d be doing what I want him to be doing and I’m here anyway. It would be worth my time.

Anything that gets people more involved in their hobby is a good thing in my book. What makes you think some people wouldn’t enjoy it? What makes you think some people won’t see this is an opportunity to help the community?

I can understand your view is yours, but it seems to say that there’s something intrinsically wrong with it. And I don’t believe there is.

Vayne.8563:

This is pretty cynical.

Let’s pretend that 10% of the forum suggestions are actually usable. A dev has to wade through 90% of the stuff he can’t use to get to the 10% he can use. I’m sure most of us would rather have the devs working on making content than looking through the forums trying to weed out stuff that can be used.

If I had the opportunity to take a dev away from that work so he could work on content, I’d happily do it free. Why?

Because that means he’d be doing what I want him to be doing and I’m here anyway. It would be worth my time.

Anything that gets people more involved in their hobby is a good thing in my book. What makes you think some people wouldn’t enjoy it? What makes you think some people won’t see this is an opportunity to help the community?

I can understand your view is yours, but it seems to say that there’s something intrinsically wrong with it. And I don’t believe there is.

It’s critical, this isn’t about me as people have responded with. It’s about the program and players participation in it. I don’t even take issue with the any administration/moderation they would provide to a player in this position, that’s the very least of any concern i would have.

I can make a lot of assumptions about what the devs actually do as far as reading and sifting through the forums too. I personally don’t think that’s the case as it’s been said that dev participation is entirely voluntary.

If improving communications is the focus of this program, then it’s kitten straight out of the gate, due to policy. I think it’s fair to say it’s at best a smoke screen, which puts volunteers in a precarious position.

I also have to wonder how a player, with no inside information, can provide quality, consolidated feedback. For example, a feature is currently in the works that perhaps the forums are really looking to be added to the game, let’s say precursor changes. You write up a report that details what you surmise the players are looking for. Yet, this feature is already being worked through, based on how they think it might impact the game and the economy. You’ve possibly wasted several hours of your time, for practically no purpose. You’re not really privy to information on the factors that go into the decision. This is partially why i feel like this is best left to people in the know, that are paid to do this type of thing.

While we could discuss the moral implication of a for profit business pulling in volunteers to do research (especially in an UN-official manner). It simply rubs me the wrong way, it feels like a secondary attempt to say they are working on better communication methods. So yes, i’m critical of the program.