Guild Wars 2

If this game is not about progress or reward, then take out levels and anything with a stat on it.

That way, like the OP suggested, we can start to focus on the proverbial “fun” and forget about the “reward”.

Otherwise, everyone in this thread advocating the promotion of “fun over reward” is being entirely hypocritical.

Why even have levels or stats when, clearly, we don’t need progression to have fun. Progression, whether you like it or not, is a form of reward – you’re rewarded with a level, you’re rewarded with stat boosts.

ANET wouldn’t have even made levels or stats if this game was solely focused on “fun” and not “progression”.

So let’s just get rid of all stats and levels altogether! Unless, of course, you’re trying to say you need some sort of level-based reward system to have fun..

Well, fun’s going to be a very personal opinion…………………..you’ll either have fun with the PvE environment or you won’t.

For me though it isn’t fun – the exact opposite in fact, but again that’s only my view – others are equally entitled to love the new gamestyle that Anet have developed.

For me it’s simple – structured grind (like GW1 or many other games) has been replaced with free roaming grind.
Run around killing creatures with a lot of other players (who you never discuss the time of day with), and that seems to be about it……………other than collecting eggs or disabling traps etc.

It’s fair to say that any MMO or RPG can be broken down to those simple terms.

But in other games there are recurring game characters, heroes, henchmen etc. that help make the grind a lot less obvious.

And coming from other games (not WoW before that’s mentioned), the combat system and skills system in GW2 seems far inferior.
That again takes the fun out of creating a good build to explore with – and despite being MMO, there seems to be no (or very limited) social interraction in PvE.

For those of us who played GW1 beginning to end, there were always people asking for help in certain areas – it’s how we developed and joined Guilds etc. Also how the social side was built up……………………….GW2 seems strange in that it seems to be setup to ‘solo’ PvE, and that means a lot of fun is removed straight away.

Those are only my views anyway – it’s all any of us can post, and I respect anyone who enjoys the gameplay in GW2.

You know how Anet made endgame a grind? Badges/Tears instead of random drops in dungeons.

You know exactly how many runs you have to do to earn your reward. That is much less exciting than having the chance to get it quick. Gambling is addictive. Random drops are kind of like gambling. If I have to run a dungeon 20 times to get my drop, I’m going to be just as excited every time that this might be the one run. I’d rather have that chance then knowing from the get-go I have to farm it 20 times to get what I need. Gear drops are my version of fun. Badge farming is not fun. But that’s just me.

I’m still waiting for a response to my “NO LEVELS, NO STATS” pitch.

If this game is simply about “fun”, then what better a way to get rid of that no-no mindset of rewards = fun? After all, this is the revolutionary Guild Wars 2 we’re talking about.

Gave.9408:

I’m still waiting for a response to my “NO LEVELS, NO STATS” pitch.

If this game is simply about “fun”, then what better a way to get rid of that no-no mindset of rewards = fun? After all, this is the revolutionary Guild Wars 2 we’re talking about.

I hear ya. RPGs are all about the character progression. Take that away, and what’s left? Some pretty zones to explore, a sub-par personal story, and combat that’s completely repetitive. Even crafting would be gone, because that is a progression-based system as well.

With all these cooldowns to encourage us to do different stuff you would think that it would make sense to do other stuff. But if you are teleporting 2 times an hour thats close to 5s an hour just to play the game as Arenanet intends!

Thats the main problem I have with it…

I’ll admit I’ve had a lot of moments of frustration due to the relative lack of “rewards” and “gold” compared to games like WoW. Then I have to remember that I invested thousands of hours in games like Counterstrike or Unreal Tournament back in the early 00’s…and those games had NO concept of a reward other than success, or failure.

What it is, is a rewiring process. I’m getting to where I “get it,” but all these modern MMOs have basically programmed all of us to “Do A” and “Expect B in return.” The “need” for gold or gear to have fun in the game is actually minimal or non existent. Granted, i think the repair and waypoint costs are about 3-5x what they should be, but overall, I think the balance of income vs spending is not too far off.

Once you get out of the “got to get ahead” mindset, it all makes sense. It’s just very hard to escape that mindset after being programmed for a decade.

I think you got it wrong. Alot of stuff dosen’t give rewards becaus people would abuse the kitten of every easy way to gain stuff( see dolyaks in wvw and dungon speedruns) not becaus A-net thinks the thing is reward enough.
Greedy people are the reasone why we can’t have nice things ( btw. this is also true in real life)

Here is the problem I have with this argument from the OP. The expectation of being rewarded isn’t from some “shift” in gaming, or even from other MMO’s/RPG’s. From the first story mission in this game, GW2, you get rewards for completion. You get XP and rewards for everything you do in this game, its one of the main seilling points REMEMBER? It isn’t some strange new generation concept that anyone is foisting on this game, for 1-80 levels, THIS game acts in exactly that manner. Suddenly at 80 or for farming dungeons that is supposedly not valid anymore? Your argument fails on it’s face.

I for one am completely fine with rewards being solely cosmetic. I am fine with some rewards taking a long time. I am not fine with hypocritical behavior. Creating grind and then saying we are anti-grind is just so.

And for the record several dungeons weren’t “fun” to begin with. (AC just sucks, story or explorable) People grinding CoF weren’t finding that fun either, but they did at least find it rewarding. Now it is reverted to being just no fun again. Anet needs to fix the glitchy, unfun, overtuned and expensive to run dungeons and the fact that it is now way easier for a player to go broke than to make money. If the game is not about being rewarded, itkittensure shouldn’t be so good at punishing players, and should actually be more fun. I don’t expect this to do this by emulating WoW, that would make me puke, I expect this to happen by Anet taking action to fix the bugs that make their game less than it should be.

Gave.9408:

If this game is not about progress or reward, then take out levels and anything with a stat on it.

That way, like the OP suggested, we can start to focus on the proverbial “fun” and forget about the “reward”.

Otherwise, everyone in this thread advocating the promotion of “fun over reward” is being entirely hypocritical.

Why even have levels or stats when, clearly, we don’t need progression to have fun. Progression, whether you like it or not, is a form of reward – you’re rewarded with a level, you’re rewarded with stat boosts.

ANET wouldn’t have even made levels or stats if this game was solely focused on “fun” and not “progression”.

So let’s just get rid of all stats and levels altogether! Unless, of course, you’re trying to say you need some sort of level-based reward system to have fun..

Lol this is the exact argument I use.

Hickeroar.9734:

I’ll admit I’ve had a lot of moments of frustration due to the relative lack of “rewards” and “gold” compared to games like WoW. Then I have to remember that I invested thousands of hours in games like Counterstrike or Unreal Tournament back in the early 00’s…and those games had NO concept of a reward other than success, or failure.

What it is, is a rewiring process. I’m getting to where I “get it,” but all these modern MMOs have basically programmed all of us to “Do A” and “Expect B in return.” The “need” for gold or gear to have fun in the game is actually minimal or non existent. Granted, i think the repair and waypoint costs are about 3-5x what they should be, but overall, I think the balance of income vs spending is not too far off.

Once you get out of the “got to get ahead” mindset, it all makes sense. It’s just very hard to escape that mindset after being programmed for a decade.

You just compared a pvp/fps game to pve in an MMORPG.

Part of RPG’s is progressions/customization/gear/etc (and I’m not just reffering to MMOrpg’s either). Part of that is also exploration and just fighting stuff.

Spvp would be the proper comparison when you’re referring to when you bring up counterstrike, etc.

And what do you mean “programmed for a decade”? Rpg’s with this concept have been here beyond the past 10 years. The ONLY thing I can think of that WoW has “programmed” players in a negative way is expecting the BEST rewards for barely any effort.

Instant gratification.

What’s funny is that people constantly say that anyone wanting “rewards” want “instant gratification” that’s not true AT ALL. People want to have carrots to work towards. It doesn’t have to be a gear treadmill, it doesn’t have to be REQUIRED. There is nothing wrong with having the proper rewards, or having optional carrots.

Of course on the other hand people make a fair argument about dungeons. They’re not rewarding sure… but if they’re also not fun then that’s an issue. Having atleast ONE of those makes them playable. Ideally both.

Calling an entire game “end game” is just a way of saying “we have no end game.”

Loot is awful in this game as is rewards. Come on OP. Do you think you should get the same silver/xp/karma from a 30 minute world boss as you do for a 3 minute DE? Thats just plain dumb. And the chest loot in this game. Worse than Diablo 3. Lack of varying items and skins. There is not a single drop in this game other than precursors that net you any real profit. But thats Anets point. To limit our rewards and profits so we buy their gems. There are more things in place to remove gold from the game than to make it. Thats pure fact. And can not be argued. I hope someone tries. Really. Everyone likes the chance for a drop they may make them more than 1g. The loot here should have been like gw 1. Lots of unique skins to sell or farm. What have you. But in 300+ hrs and full magic find includding food and buffs. Im well well over 200% magic find. And have NEVER had a mob or chest drop me an exotic. Without rewards why play. Theres only so much to explore and so much to zerg. The loot system must be fixed and more unique skins should be available as drops. Say what you want about not wanting reward-centric (or whatever you made up there.) I want rewards. And for the OP’s that say its not about stats etc. Thats not what im referring too. I could give 2 kittens about wows lame kitten gear progression. But i want some interesting loot to drop. I want to have something to look forward to maybe getting. Bottom line. I wanna be able to make money in this game. So i can afford the items Anet decided to make so RnG. Precursors, enough said.. 100’s of yellows in the mystic forge and nothing but 1 exotic. There is no true progression here. let me explain how arena net prevents you from this.

They force PvE players into PvP for 100% map completion. Something the individual player has no control over. This should be a pvp Achievement. Not PvE. So when you finish all the pve zones you may wait many months before your realm has control of the things u need. But you have to que for hours to go check. Hence stopping your legendary progression. Precursors are RnG. No set formula in the mystic. Again stopping progression. This is long enough and way off topic now. i better stop.

On topic, a game that doesnt reward you doesnt keep you. And if the very very very very small amount of casuals that enjoy looking at pretty things stay. Thats pretty much all that will be around. Look at the history of MMO’s and why they failed. It all revolves around risk for reward. Progressing. And having fun doing it. Anet nailed the lvling process. Dropped the ball after that.

Gave.9408:

I’m still waiting for a response to my “NO LEVELS, NO STATS” pitch.

If this game is simply about “fun”, then what better a way to get rid of that no-no mindset of rewards = fun? After all, this is the revolutionary Guild Wars 2 we’re talking about.

I’m pretty sure someone earlier in the thread made the same claim that you have, and the original poster has addressed this multiple times already, including in his/her first post. It was never claimed that rewards/progression aren’t “fun.” It was noted that the game isn’t reward-centric, which several people (including you) have somehow confused with an absence of rewards and progression, or at least suggested this for whatever reason as a logical extension of the game philosophy. It was also noted that a wide variety of things can be “fun,” and it is not necessarily incumbent upon ArenaNet to facilitate all of them.

Gave.9408:

If this game is not about progress or reward, then take out levels and anything with a stat on it.

That way, like the OP suggested, we can start to focus on the proverbial “fun” and forget about the “reward”.

Otherwise, everyone in this thread advocating the promotion of “fun over reward” is being entirely hypocritical.

That would be true if anyone had made an either/or claim about fun vs reward. The game is fun-centric, not fun-exclusive. Rewards are a part of the game, just not the primary focus. If that was the case, you’d be able to grind for something other than cosmetic variances, and progress would never stop.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Gave.9408:

If this game is not about progress or reward, then take out levels and anything with a stat on it.

That way, like the OP suggested, we can start to focus on the proverbial “fun” and forget about the “reward”.

Otherwise, everyone in this thread advocating the promotion of “fun over reward” is being entirely hypocritical.

That would be true if anyone had made an either/or claim about fun vs reward. The game is fun-centric, not fun-exclusive. Rewards are a part of the game, just not the primary focus. If that was the case, you’d be able to grind for something other than cosmetic variances, and progress would never stop.

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Rewards are fun. All content gets repeated eventually. Repetition without a reward is madness.

So far, the only responses that are anywhere near logical are:

“Fun is subjective; therefore, ANET is right in enforcing their subjective take on fun onto the playerbase.”

ANET has every right to make the game however they want, as they’re the ones slaving away coding and paying the proverbial bills. That said, this doesn’t mean anyone has to like it. Unfortunately, ANET’s business model is about box sales and lingering around long enough to spend money on gems. If your take on “fun” doesn’t align with the majority of your playerbase and their definition.. then you’ll lose that all-too precious life-force, probably much more rapidly than you would based on bugs or botters alone.

If people don’t have fun, it doesn’t matter what you INTEND to be fun as a developer. They are responsible for keeping us entertained, not the other way around.

Dark Savior.7589:

Here is the problem I have with this argument from the OP. The expectation of being rewarded isn’t from some “shift” in gaming, or even from other MMO’s/RPG’s..

I didn’t claim it was. I didn’t claim there was anything wrong with a reward-centric game. I said that there are a lot of games that people enjoy playing that have no rewards and no progression, and that there is already a glut on the MMOG market of skinner box games, like WoW, RIFT, AION, TERA, AoC and SWTOR, and many more. There was no reason to buy GW2 with those games already on the market and serving the interests of those who enjoy progression/reward centric games.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Dark Savior.7589:

Here is the problem I have with this argument from the OP. The expectation of being rewarded isn’t from some “shift” in gaming, or even from other MMO’s/RPG’s..

I didn’t claim it was. I didn’t claim there was anything wrong with a reward-centric game. I said that there are a lot of games that people enjoy playing that have no rewards and no progression, and that there is already a glut on the MMOG market of skinner box games, like WoW, RIFT, AION, TERA, AoC and SWTOR, and many more. There was no reason to buy GW2 with those games already on the market and serving the interests of those who enjoy progression/reward centric games.

Except for the fact we were promised no-grind, revolutionary game play, and a plethora of things to do end-game. Other than that, and the ungodly amount of PR – both fanboy and legitimate – and yeah, there was totally no reason to buy this game.

What we got was more of the same-old, same-old. And they’re actually working backwards! Can’t say I’ve ever seen a Dev do that, so.. I guess that’s pretty revolutionary.

Hickeroar.9734:

I’ll admit I’ve had a lot of moments of frustration due to the relative lack of “rewards” and “gold” compared to games like WoW. Then I have to remember that I invested thousands of hours in games like Counterstrike or Unreal Tournament back in the early 00’s…and those games had NO concept of a reward other than success, or failure.

What it is, is a rewiring process. I’m getting to where I “get it,” but all these modern MMOs have basically programmed all of us to “Do A” and “Expect B in return.” The “need” for gold or gear to have fun in the game is actually minimal or non existent. Granted, i think the repair and waypoint costs are about 3-5x what they should be, but overall, I think the balance of income vs spending is not too far off.

Once you get out of the “got to get ahead” mindset, it all makes sense. It’s just very hard to escape that mindset after being programmed for a decade.

Exactly! Yeah, I still have to retrain myself. I was thinking the other day … I ’m leveling too fast .. but too fast for what? I can go back and do anything via the deleveling system. The skinner system is effective and hard to let go of because (as one can see by many of the posts here), after the skinner training, getting that carrot becomes the only reason you feel motivated to do anything.

Everyone should read both

http://mmrg.pbworks.com/f/Ryan,+Deci+00.pdf – Intrinsic Motivation Vs Extrinsic Motivation

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test – Categorizing MMO Players

and then attempt to apply what youve read in those articles to these type of posts

to put it simply everyone is different and everyone has their own reasons for why and what they do..

FarFarAway.6579:

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Because it’s not “either/or”, and nobody made the case that it is, or that it should be. Just because the game has progression in it doesn’t make it a progression-centric game. You can have progression in a game without that progression being the main reason to do anything.

A major flaw in the “fun-centric” model: the game lacks replay value and, once you hit 80, is no longer fun. Ouch.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

FarFarAway.6579:

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Because it’s not “either/or”, and nobody made the case that it is, or that it should be. Just because the game has progression in it doesn’t make it a progression-centric game. You can have progression in a game without that progression being the main reason to do anything.

You’re right – its not either/or. It has to be both. Fun and Progress go together. GW2 got it right on the leveling portion of the game. Are you telling me that without the leveling system you would have killed that many enemies, completed that many dynamic events, or heart encounters? For what? Oh right, just for fun.

Trying to have fun without progress/reward in an MMO is like playing counterstrike with no death spam.

Why can’t the game be both?

Can’t the game be fun and rewarding?

Why must it be one or the other?

Gambit.7836:

A major flaw in the “fun-centric” model: the game lacks replay value and, once you hit 80, is no longer fun. Ouch.

Then I guess it’s a good thing I’m playing 5 different characters now, plan on getting more, and probably won’t hit 80 with any of them for over a year.

Seriously, I think that it is the progress-centric people that have a hard time having fun after hitting 80. The fun-centric people don’t need to progress to have fun, so hitting 80 doesn’t really change anything.

FarFarAway.6579:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

FarFarAway.6579:

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Because it’s not “either/or”, and nobody made the case that it is, or that it should be. Just because the game has progression in it doesn’t make it a progression-centric game. You can have progression in a game without that progression being the main reason to do anything.

You’re right – its not either/or. It has to be both. Fun and Progress go together. GW2 got it right on the leveling portion of the game. Are you telling me that without the leveling system you would have killed that many enemies, completed that many dynamic events, or heart encounters? For what? Oh right, just for fun.

Trying to have fun without progress/reward in an MMO is like playing counterstrike with no death spam.

Precisely my point, without some sort of guidance – IE: Reward via levels, increased stats on gear, simply gear itself – then not a single person would endless grind mobs, quests, or DEs. It’s amusing to watch these so-called “true” gamers defend an obviously flawed system in which they are entirely oblivious as to their own motivation.

If you can honestly say you’d still play this game without levels, stats, gear, or any sort of progression / reward, then you’re certainly not the MAJORITY of MMO players – in fact, you’re a fraction much smaller than even the RPers, I would believe.

Levelord.5746:

Why can’t the game be both?

Can’t the game be fun and rewarding?

Why must it be one or the other?

Nobody said it “must be” reward centric or fun centric. What I said is that GW2 is fun-centric, and not reward-centric, and that this is a deliberate design by ANET.

If it was reward- or progression-centric then you wouldn’t be grinding for cosmetics (see how I defined “rewards” in the O.P.) – you’d be grinding for rewards.

Please don’t mistake what I wrote to be about how I think games should be or to be about how players should play. It’s not about that.

I do what I do in game because I enjoy doing it. That also means I am not going to do what I don’t enjoy. What I don’t want to have to do is pay to go to dungeons, because if I have to pay to go to them then I am going to have to stop eventually and do stuff that is less enjoyable in order to pay for the fun parts. I am not going to play a game that forces me to find a way to farm money so that I can finance my dungeon diving. That is one of the reasons I stopped raiding in games like wow years ago. I am not going to dedicate hours to farming mats for consumables in preparation for raid night.

Right now, GW2 isn’t at that point. At least not that I have noticed I haven’t actually been back in a dungeon since the change. But if the reward gets so low that I can’t pay for repairs I won’t bother going. I am not a hardcore player. I am not a twitch warrior. I am not bad at the game but I am not great either. So far, I die a lot more than I like in dungeons. Hopefully that will get better though honestly I am not sure how.

I am just saying that I don’t want the fun to go away because I can’t make enough in a run to pay the repair bill. I don’t need a big carrot in front of me to make dungeons fun but saying that it is no big deal to have to pay to go is just stupid and unsustainable.

Gave.9408:

If you can honestly say you’d still play this game without levels, stats, gear, or any sort of progression / reward, then you’re certainly not the MAJORITY of MMO players – in fact, you’re a fraction much smaller than even the RPers, I would believe.

I agree I’m not in the majority of MMO players. The question is, is that because there aren’t a lot of players like me, or is that because there aren’t any significant MMOs that offer the kind of game design and philosophy that would attract players like me to such a game? How many people play SIMS? How many play “angry birds”? How may play solitaire?

And yes, I’d play this game if all gear was just cosmetic variance and there were no levels.

It’s amusing to watch these so-called “true” gamers defend an obviously flawed system in which they are entirely oblivious as to their own motivation.

More amusing than someone who professes to know their motivation better than them?

I don’t see any of them calling themselves “true” gamers. Just because you and I have different motivations for playing doesn’t mean my motivation is better than yours. It just means we have different motivations. If I have a complaint, it’s that you and people like you seem to refuse to believe that we simply do not play games for the same reasons you do, nor do you seem content to allow us to have and enjoy a game that is designed in accordance with our view, even when you and others have scores of games that service and celebrate your progression-centric motivation.

I mean, really? You can’t allow us to have one single game in the MMOG market that isn’t progress/reward-centric without complaining and criticising and trying to change it?

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

I mean, really? You can’t allow us to have one single game in the MMOG market that isn’t progress/reward-centric without complaining and criticising and trying to change it?

The thing is, there’s a lot of players who really like GW2, but don’t agree with your philosophy, are struggling to have “fun” at level 80, and they are using the forums to communicate to Anet what it will take to keep them as a customer.

I’m not sure if there’s enough players like you for Anet to ignore the players like me. But that’s for them to decide.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Gave.9408:

If you can honestly say you’d still play this game without levels, stats, gear, or any sort of progression / reward, then you’re certainly not the MAJORITY of MMO players – in fact, you’re a fraction much smaller than even the RPers, I would believe.

I agree I’m not in the majority of MMO players. The question is, is that because there aren’t a lot of players like me, or is that because there aren’t any significant MMOs that offer the kind of game design and philosophy that would attract players like me to such a game? How many people play SIMS? How many play “angry birds”? How may play solitaire?

And yes, I’d play this game if all gear was just cosmetic variance and there were no levels.

It’s amusing to watch these so-called “true” gamers defend an obviously flawed system in which they are entirely oblivious as to their own motivation.

More amusing than someone who professes to know their motivation better than them?

I don’t see any of them calling themselves “true” gamers. Just because you and I have different motivations for playing doesn’t mean my motivation is better than yours. It just means we have different motivations. If I have a complaint, it’s that you and people like you seem to refuse to believe that we simply do not play games for the same reasons you do, nor do you seem content to allow us to have and enjoy a game that is designed in accordance with our view, even when you and others have scores of games that service and celebrate your progression-centric motivation.

I mean, really? You can’t allow us to have one single game in the MMOG market that isn’t progress/reward-centric without complaining and criticising and trying to change it?

After re-reading your post it seems more like you’re talking about just ways to gain currency as opposed to “optional carrots” I will refrain from posting now lol.

I look at GW2 the same way that I look at Team Fortress 2. I play it to have fun. If i get rewards I get rewards and that is cool, but that is not why I play it.

If I wanted to play a game with a gear grind or a serious progression system I would play WoW.
There are tons of games out there that the main focus is pure progression. What makes GW2 awesome is that it has many of the things I have enjoyed in the MMOs I’ve played, but with the ability for me to actually play at my own pace and stay competitive.

I enjoy playing an hour or so a day, doing so PvP and having fun, unlike WoW where if you wanted to have any fun in PvP you must 1st complete the gear grind.

There is a significant reduction on return on fun when it isn’t rewarding.

As a fairly new lvl 80 the game does have rewards, that temple armor is better than what I have so it is a reward, whether dungeon armor is a badge or not it is still a reward that has be grinded for.

As for the fun philosophy, it seems to me that its fun as defined by arenanet whereas like others have said fun is a completely subjective concept. What they are doing now is making the game a lot less fun for a lot of people.

On topic of this being fun-centric, I would hope they make it so everything gives similar reward, such as going to low level areas. I thought that was supposed to be the case. But karma rewards and what not don’t scale or anything.

OP thank you for a great post, more of these are needed. im glad ANet is holding firm on their values. thats what separates great games from average ones. Blizzard completely lost itself doing what the players wanted, and WoW lost its essence long ago. it is now just a shell of its former self. no vision, just a construct of what fickle-minded, carrot-on-a-stick addicts NEED.

id like to meet these people who truly believe these dungeons are fun and would regularly do them for NO other rewards, and play with them through these dungeons. no trolling (ok maybe halfway), but id like to see how the other side operates and what im “missing”

Knote.2904:

On topic of this being fun-centric, I would hope they make it so everything gives similar reward, such as going to low level areas. I thought that was supposed to be the case. But karma rewards and what not don’t scale or anything.

this, +1. absolutely needed if the world is to stay alive. im sure theyre taking lots of notes on this.

jiverooster.7134:

id like to meet these people who truly believe these dungeons are fun and would regularly do them for NO other rewards, and play with them through these dungeons. no trolling (ok maybe halfway), but id like to see how the other side operates and what im “missing”

hi, nice to meet you. dungeons are skill-based, and the most fun ive ever had in PVE. there are some rewards, and epics may take longer to obtain, but this is good enough for me.

OP, let’s be clear.

There are some things which are fun because of “risk vs reward”. then there are things that are fun just because…

People won’t go skydiving if there wasn’t an adrenaline rush. that’s what makes it fun – the extreme emotional state is the reward. There is a clear pay off.

People don’t go on roller coaster rides just because they can say it was fun to sit in the carriage. There is a payoff; which is the extreme emotional state that is rewarded via adrenaline ONLY when the ride is experienced.

Likewise, i like going to the beach. I will go; but I will NOT go if the beach is closed. you are effectively saying, if I enjoy going to the beach, I would do it anyway. What is the point of me going to the beach if it is closed? What is the point of me going when the only reason for going is just to go?

Anet has effectively closed entry onto the sand and water but has allowed you entry to the “beach”; which is to say, i went to the beach but am only allowed on the sidewalk.

If there was no payoff for, let’s say, killing mobs, would anyone do it? Maybe one or 2 times but beyond that they wouldn’t. Likewise, people aren’t going to do the dungeon beyond 1 or 2 times just to experience the content.

Exploration is fun (for some at least) that doesn’t need any reward beyond exploration. However, a dungeon that rewards poor coin and poor loot is a beach where you can only stay on the sidewalk. It’s incomplete as an experience.

Even in the days of pen and Paper D&D, people did dungeons because of the danger/thrill AND reward.

It’s all fine and good that we do things just for fun but as an MMORPG where we are stuck on repeat for months at a time, there is noone, i repeat, noone, that will continue to do the same thing day in and day out without a payoff of some kind.

For example, I like mob grinding. I have for over 20+ years of RPG and MMORPG. i find it relaxing and while it isn’t the best way to make money, it still rewards me over time. And while I like it and find it relaxing, it is also rather boring but the small coin I make from it is enough to be worth my time.

in guild Wars 2, I no longer can do that. I am effectively penalised for mob grinding as a playstyle – and it is a valid playstyle- the coin and drop tables on mobs are so poor and the diminishing returns on it kick in so quickly that even as I like that activity, I won’t do it. I can’t even cover the cost of travel and repairs by doing it.

I still NEED to recoup my cost and I still NEED to make coin to continue playing.

then there is also the sense of progression. Even at 80, there should be some level of progression. People do things because of a sense of moving, progressing. “rewards” are a way of progressing. Imagine if there was zero reward for doing anything in game. No coin, no loot, no xp. Who would do it?

Without loot, coin, xp, rewards, there is no progression.

Your points only make sense in a purely single player game and even then, you are typically rewarded massively for doing difficult or long, time consuming activities.

As it is right now, playing the game as intended by the developers, you will end up losing more coin than you will gain with a very, very narrow path in how you can gain that back again. I like shopping but because it is really expensive, I only rarely do it. I have to work a certain time amount to earn $$$ so I can shop again. Imagine if I had little to no way to earn that “reward” ($$$) for my time, then shopping becomes a far impossibility.

Rewards are everything. Even in exploration, how many would like doing it if it also didn’t open up the fog of war? I probably would but I would be near 100 enrage that exploration didn’t unlock the fog of war – and I would only ever go there again if I had something to farm – but anet has seen fit to make sure farming is disallowed!

If you delve into “fun”, you will see that there is a clear risk vs reward vs time investment ideal behind it. At the moment, “fun” is what Anet decided should be fun, when clearly not everyone agrees. Being broke all the time and being penalised for playing the game (as intended to boot) kills fun. Instead of enjoying the game, people are compelled and feel compelled to farm ad nauseum just so they can stay in operation. And Anet disapproves that kind of playstyle. They would rather we hit 80, spend about 1 day in Orr and go flat broke with no real way to participate in “fun” again.

By design.

If you’re trying to gain rewards, they become harder and harder to obtain by continuously doing any particular aspect of the game. So, we can say that if you’re playing to max out your rewards, Anet has put (and is still working on) – basically – kind of cap on how much reward you can get in GW2 ( at least for doing the same kind of thing over and over at a sitting). This serves both the design philosophy and helps diminish the profitability of botting.

I see people spouting this nonsense over and over and over again when it’s completely untrue. The Dynamic Event cap has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with repeating ANYTHING. I’ve hit it in 25 minutes without repeating a single event. All it cares about is how FAST you do events. Furthermore, once it triggers, it doesn’t penalize the rewards from one event, it penalizes reward from EVERY event in the entire world!

Ironically the only way to get around this is to do exactly what you say it discourages – sit and farm the same event over and over. The event will trigger rarely enough that you never hit the cap.

To those asking “what if I like farming and doing repetitive tasks?”: You are lucky, now you can do even more repetition and farming to achieve the same!

The rest of us won’t even notice.

For some people getting rewards is an important part of their fun.

It’s difficult to have fun with little reward. Thinking otherwise is counterproductive, in my view. I’m astonished to realize that this has become my main gripe in GW2 from what seemed so normal from all the games I’ve played until now.

I like to be fairly rewarded for my effort and the time I have available. It’s as simple as that. I don’t know if that’s even what ArenaNet intended (rewards are intentionally crap; have fun with doing other stuff we’re throwing at you) but the end result is just that.

I find this puzzling since it doesn’t foster long term success for a game that wants to have mass appeal.

Most of the talk about “well you can still do things” misses the fact that repair costs for an 80 character in dungeons or in WvW are huge.

I was happy that I could do story mode with people who hadn’t done it yet and still progress my character. Now that that’s not true, dungeons should at least drop a repair kit so that I’m not literally paying silver to be able to do dungeons with lower-level friends.

Reward-based progression is fun and it is also a very big part of Guild Wars 2! Here’s a cool experiment: go into WvW with a level 1 character and fight enemy players and NPCs. Now, level that character to 80, give him full skills and traits along with a set of exotic gear that synergizes with those skills and traits, and try WvW again. Did you feel a lot stronger the second time? That’s progression! Your character progressed through the game and was rewarded, with new skills and loot!

I understand there are a few people who don’t like reward-based gameplay, but there are mmo’s without RPG progression mechanics, such as minecraft and second life

Not having enough money to buy armor isn’t “fun”. Not having enough money to repair what armor I do have isn’t “fun”. Barely having enough money to travel, and feeling really bad when I do use one of those waypoints certainly isn’t “fun”.

Grinding insanely hard dungeons over and over and over and (well I’ll stop here, you all know how many overs I’d have to write) isn’t “fun”. Grinding dynamic events (AKA stand here till something happens, then AoE the crap out of it till it stops happening) isn’t “fun”.

In the end most of what could have been fun just isn’t any fun. Instead of making that better, everything they’ve done since release has been a step backward (in my opinion at least).

rewards is what made a game fun, no one will play a game that isnt rewarding for years, even fps like battlefield 3 and CoD have progression, gw2 wont last long in its current state

I am gonna end this with some solid reasoning.I am surprised not a single soul here has said it.

This is Guild Wars.“G-u-i-l-d W-a-r-s” As in guilds going to war.So as in PvP. PvP is the focus here. Once you hit 80 you are suppose to soak in the pvp, learn the ins and outs, perfect builds, join guilds, and duke it out. Balancing, new content, and patches will constantly change the pvp scene.

PvE was never meant to replace it.They simply gave you a much larger PvE experience than last time.That is all.

PvP will make this last for many years to come, not the PvE.But having said that there is tons to do with 5 characters on the way to 80 and i am sure it will be a long time before i care. Nvm that i played the original Guild Wars so i know where the true focus is.

It’s modern day culture partially.

Cosmetic materialism dictates the lives of many. Without this dopamine rush many feel unmotivated and saddened by their experience.

“Fun” just doesn’t cut it for some people. They’ve lost touch with that side of their young life with regards to gaming. You can blame certain games for this and the way society is as a whole with regards to how people feel.

If the combat itself was more involved I think one could play it more like an FPS or action game and not have to shoot for rewards. Me and my hardcore ex-WoW friends aren’t missing the gear progression so much as the more complex and semi-rotational skills. The problem being that autoattack does so much damage and most other skills are just defensive- there’s not much going on with your skills compared to other, less skill intensive games. This makes GW2 great fun when you’re an inch from death, always dodging and timing your skills perfectly- but you aren’t always about to die. If they could tweak weapon damage away from autoattack, lower some cooldowns, and make all traits more potent and gameplay changing we would be able to have more fun with the actual combat itself and make the act of doing damage interesting. Build more on the action RPG roots that the game is clearly erring towards.