Guild Wars 2

Is it even possible to take ‘grind’ away from the MMOG Industry and still have a product?Even in EVE Online where your skills progress while you’re offline, there is still a PvE grind for Corporate standings and money to buy and replace fancy faction ships..

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

If you are forced to repeat a specific piece of the content to get a specific piece of gear, that’s a grind. Whether that piece of gear is “cosmetic” as in GW2 or “opens up new content” as in other MMO’s is irrelevant.

If there’s only one way to get it, that you have to repeat over and over, it’s a grind.

Convenient definitions do not an argument make. I can define “grind” as “having to kill enemies” or “having to craft” or “having to explore” and advocate that I should be able to just log my character in for X hours a week and have the legendary item mailed to me. Or then I could complain that logging in is a grind …

Hmmm. I’m trying to decide if you’re trying to be insulting by calling my definition of a grind “convenient”. I choose not to be insulted and rather point out that mine is a perfectly acceptable definition and each of your examples actually illustrates that point. If you “have” to do something, and it’s the only way to achieve your objective, that’s a grind.

Even one option makes it less grindy. And having dozens of options removes the grind altogether, unless you are one of those who thinks everything in the game is a chore. In which case, I would ask why you bother to log in.

So to blend you examples, and your apparent goal (the legendary you mentioned) and my convenient definition: If each of those things was the only way to get your legendary, then yes it would be a grind. However if you could do any or all of them (other than the silliness of “just logging in”), it’s not a grind.

Thanks for the earlier clarifications (can’t get back to the post now that I’m in the editing window, but you know who you are).

It never really occurred to me that forcing yourself to do something you didn’t want to over and over again could create a sense of prestige, but I suppose I get it. I’m still not sure why developers would force you to do it though.

If you just want bragging rights… no, sorry. I still don’t get the point of being forced into a specific piece of content.

Guy 1: “See this armor. I ran CM 139 times to get it. It took me two months of farming, but I got there.”
Guy 2: “See this armor. I managed to get it without ever setting foot in CM. It took me two months of farming, but I got there.”

I mean, if you want to brag that you gutted out the same dungeon 1,000 times to get your armor, nobody’s stopping you. We see the uber armor. We know you spent mountains of your time to get it. Why is it necessary that that be the ONLY way to get it?

How does me spending time doing other things that I enjoy stop you from enjoying your armor?

Still not getting it…

I agree with Derpinator on his last post. The best way to remove the grindy feeling to things people decide to focus on, is to give them alternate ways to reach the same goals. It won’t affect those of us who really don’t care about how long it will take to get anything and it won’t also affect the time everyone else will have to invest to get that same thing, it will just make it less grindy for them. So, in the end, it’s a win-win situation.

For one, I think that the whole token system is somewhat flawed. They had a way better approach on Guild Wars 1, with tradable rare crafting materials.

And Wintyre, there is no point in keeping those arguments. As much as I agree with you about playing for the sake of having fun instead of rewards, I strongly believe that there are ways to make both sides happy without any gameplay experience detriment for the other. And that is what we should be really aiming our suggestions at.

SirMoogie.9263:

Derpinator.2894:

Please help me understand if I’m missing something here..

You are missing a few things… I’m not saying I agree with them, but you asked. Some people do like competition and a sense of achievement over others. The “prestige” gear like legendaries and dungeon armor was put in to address that. They were supposed to show that someone put in great effort to get them, and in particular with dungeons, that they did something challenging. However, you’re right on the grind factor here. If you complete all three paths of a dungeon you should walk away with enough token for a armor set, and maybe a weapon or two. You’ve shown you can do the challenge in my opinion.

The other thing you’re missing is MMOs thrive by having an active population. If people leave the game there is less of a chance they’ll come back. When more people leave developers start asking the question of whether it is worth continuing. Sometimes this is a good thing as it can spur the developer into creating new content, or even a new game with more bells and whistles that couldn’t be achieved under the old engine. To help retain customers MMOs, especially pay for play ones, add grinding content to keep players in game longer. Eve if there were no cash shop or monthly fee there is something to be said about retaining an active population to do things with.

Thanks again (I mentioned this post in my last one).

And I get that you want an active population. Which is exactly why I would think having the maximal number of options for achieving goals.

Look at it this way. If the server population is, let’s say, 100 people.

And there are 10 cool armor sets. But for some reason the majority of the population just happens to like the look of #4.

Now the ONLY way to get set #4 is… I don’t know, something a lot of people would find really unpleasant… maybe reading War And Peace. In Russian. Even if you don’t speak it.

Because it’s a game, who’s going to do that? Not many people.

So now you have a lot of people who have to settle for their seconds favorite armor, or just not play at all because they refuse to learn Russian and read 1200 pages to get the reward.

It seems logical to me that locking content (even if it’s just cosmetic) behind a required, repetitive action can only damage the health of a server population. I’m not advocating making these items easy to get. I’m advocating making it possible to get them without forcing yourself into content you don’t personally enjoy.

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

I like the armor appearance that I have now, and it’s not elite. Doesn’t matter how many people end up with a set of exotic Arah armor, or what they went through to get it, I don’t like the way it looks on me. If I had a level 80 Necro instead of an Ele, then I’d probably like it more.

Derpinator.2894:

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

I agree with you, but I just trying to help you understand why. The dungeon armor is for people… well… people like this:

Malediktus.9250:

Giving more tokens or reducing the price is unfair to those people who already played dozens of dungeons and maybe even bought gear for those tokens.

Personally, I think that if you’ve performed some great feat you can advertise it through achievement or just saying so. However, I think I may be in the minority when it comes to this. I think most people want something tangible to show it. Not just a title or achievement, but things that show status or grant special power (like better stats or abilities).

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

Sometimes the devs do make changes that make the achievements easier; however unfair that may be to more established players. Just look at what they did in GW! Give it some more time, go away and come back to it if you have to.

If you are unfamiliar with GW history; there are two titles which used to be mutually exclusive. Legendary Survivor and Ledgendary Defender of Ascalon; one required you to avoid death well beyond level 20, and the other required you to die often before reaching level 20. They changed it so that anyone could get Legendary Survivor even if they’ed already died 100 times. And they added quests to Pre-Searing Ascalon which eliminated the need for death-leveling mobs. How was this fair to all those people who had already earned those titles the hard way?

The game is still brand new, and it is what it is without much input from the player-base. In the future the game will be something different, you can depend on that.

Who knew people could argue about something so subjective for 6 pages. As if it is even possible to define what is fun for others.

Mickey.4207:

Who knew people could argue about something so subjective for 6 pages. As if it is even possible to define what is fun for others.

Rewards are fun. At least for me.

SirMoogie.9263:

Derpinator.2894:

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

I agree with you, but I just trying to help you understand why. The dungeon armor is for people… well… people like this:

Malediktus.9250:

Giving more tokens or reducing the price is unfair to those people who already played dozens of dungeons and maybe even bought gear for those tokens.

Personally, I think that if you’ve performed some great feat you can advertise it through achievement or just saying so. However, I think I may be in the minority when it comes to this. I think most people want something tangible to show it. Not just a title or achievement, but things that show status or grant special power (like better stats or abilities).

We should just make special achievements for those guys. Or even just titles.

IE:

Sir Moogie
<That guy who shown enough bearing and perseverance to kill Giganticus Lupicus 50 times!>

That’s right, all hail “that guy”.

Token.6501:

Sometimes the devs do make changes that make the achievements easier; however unfair that may be to more established players. Just look at what they did in GW! Give it some more time, go away and come back to it if you have to.

If you are unfamiliar with GW history; there are two titles which used to be mutually exclusive. Legendary Survivor and Ledgendary Defender of Ascalon; one required you to avoid death well beyond level 20, and the other required you to die often before reaching level 20. They changed it so that anyone could get Legendary Survivor even if they’ed already died 100 times. And they added quests to Pre-Searing Ascalon which eliminated the need for death-leveling mobs. How was this fair to all those people who had already earned those titles the hard way?

[Warning, WoW reference here]

This isn’t the difference between obtaining the Winterspring Frostsaber before flying mounts were permitted and afterward in WoW. We’re a month into the game, why can’t we identify problems as early as possible in an attempt to rectify them w/ the least amount of resistance?

Besides, Mr Peters has already stated his opinion on that topic:

And not doing it is unfair to the game because it makes one of the more repeatable content types feel like more of a grind than it needs to. We weren’t going to release a perfect game, and can’t let things live this stop us from improving the experience for the majority of the players.

Jon

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Tokens-Account-Bound-please/first#post219199

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

I’m not even sure that single dungeon run should be required. In the proposal I’m making, these sets wouldn’t be “dungeon sets,” they’d simply be “exotic armor sets,” or whatever the hell you want to call them. Gear that is extremely costly to get ahold of, but can be purchased through time and effort expended in any part of the game you actually enjoy partaking in.

And with an equal amount of time spent doing any one of a number of different things to gain the currency to purchase them, other rewards should be granted as well. Skins, pets, minis, achievements, rare crafting materials, etc etc. It grants the best of both worlds: a token/currency system that eliminates the randomness previously associated with raiding, and random drops that still grant the “gambler’s success” adrenaline surge that many other people enjoy.

Lance Coolee.9480:

SirMoogie.9263:

Derpinator.2894:

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

I agree with you, but I just trying to help you understand why. The dungeon armor is for people… well… people like this:

Malediktus.9250:

Giving more tokens or reducing the price is unfair to those people who already played dozens of dungeons and maybe even bought gear for those tokens.

Personally, I think that if you’ve performed some great feat you can advertise it through achievement or just saying so. However, I think I may be in the minority when it comes to this. I think most people want something tangible to show it. Not just a title or achievement, but things that show status or grant special power (like better stats or abilities).

We should just make special achievements for those guys. Or even just titles.

IE:

Sir Moogie
<That guy who shown enough bearing and perseverance to kill Giganticus Lupicus 50 times!>

That’s right, all hail “that guy”.

+1.

I was thinking about this the other day actually. As far as I know, I’m the only one that can see my achievements. It would be nice to have some way to show off a little bit.

I’m not sure how it could reasonably be implemented without causing huge problems (80 people all showing off their stuff at once could be a huge graphical nightmare), but something like a trophy case that you could “display” outside of combat?

Or maybe a Boy Scout style sash that you character could wear with all your merit badges on it?

Something like this might mitigate the fact that right now ONLY gear shows your achievements, grind or otherwise.

Greyfeld.7104:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

I’m not even sure that single dungeon run should be required. In the proposal I’m making, these sets wouldn’t be “dungeon sets,” they’d simply be “exotic armor sets,” or whatever the hell you want to call them. Gear that is extremely costly to get ahold of, but can be purchased through time and effort expended in any part of the game you actually enjoy partaking in.

And with an equal amount of time spent doing any one of a number of different things to gain the currency to purchase them, other rewards should be granted as well. Skins, pets, minis, achievements, rare crafting materials, etc etc. It grants the best of both worlds: a token/currency system that eliminates the randomness previously associated with raiding, and random drops that still grant the “gambler’s success” adrenaline surge that many other people enjoy.

+1

And from a content economics standpoint, this could actually work out even better than forcing people into underused content. If as a designer you have underutilized content, tweak the “global reward” system to give people more incentive to go there and do stuff.

So if you want the dungeon armor, that’s actually the EASIEST way to get it: run the dungeon over and again. But it’s not the only way to get it.

Ha! That would put the “I grinded this dungeon 1,000 times for this armor” crowd on their rears.

“Oh yeah? Well to get mine I had to <insert even more challenging challenge>!”

:)

Greyfeld.7104:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

I’m not even sure that single dungeon run should be required. In the proposal I’m making, these sets wouldn’t be “dungeon sets,” they’d simply be “exotic armor sets,” or whatever the hell you want to call them. Gear that is extremely costly to get ahold of, but can be purchased through time and effort expended in any part of the game you actually enjoy partaking in.

And with an equal amount of time spent doing any one of a number of different things to gain the currency to purchase them, other rewards should be granted as well. Skins, pets, minis, achievements, rare crafting materials, etc etc. It grants the best of both worlds: a token/currency system that eliminates the randomness previously associated with raiding, and random drops that still grant the “gambler’s success” adrenaline surge that many other people enjoy.

Well I think the argument here is that the devs would like to say that certain gear has a connection to the way it was obtained.

I really don’t know anyone who’d work to obtain a dungeon set simply for it’s stats – there are way simpler ways to get gear w/ those stats. It’s the appearance of the armor that demonstrates the player’s accomplishment.

We’re just advocating that there is a less “grindy” way to obtain the gear w/out having to remove it’s connective lore / achievement.

One of my guild members complained that there wasn’t enough content for them at level 15! Nothing surprises me anymore from the online community.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

I’m not even sure that single dungeon run should be required. In the proposal I’m making, these sets wouldn’t be “dungeon sets,” they’d simply be “exotic armor sets,” or whatever the hell you want to call them. Gear that is extremely costly to get ahold of, but can be purchased through time and effort expended in any part of the game you actually enjoy partaking in.

And with an equal amount of time spent doing any one of a number of different things to gain the currency to purchase them, other rewards should be granted as well. Skins, pets, minis, achievements, rare crafting materials, etc etc. It grants the best of both worlds: a token/currency system that eliminates the randomness previously associated with raiding, and random drops that still grant the “gambler’s success” adrenaline surge that many other people enjoy.

Well I think the argument here is that the devs would like to say that certain gear has a connection to the way it was obtained.

I really don’t know anyone who’d work to obtain a dungeon set simply for it’s stats – there are way simpler ways to get gear w/ those stats. It’s the appearance of the armor that demonstrates the player’s accomplishment.

We’re just advocating that there is a less “grindy” way to obtain the gear w/out having to remove it’s connective lore / achievement.

I’m of the mind that dungeon-specific gear should actually drop INSIDE the dungeon. It should also have lore that ties it to that dungeon, and the enemies it drops from.

It should also be no stronger than the “token/currency” gear, so you’re basically just picking it up for the skin.

I can’t believe there are people defending gear progression.
It’s designed to slow you down to keep you subbed.

EVERYTHING about it ties in to slowing you down and forcing you to raid over and over again.

Say you enjoy raiding, but don’t want to repeat content?

1. You get booted from your guild, meaning you can’t do newer content
2. You don’t get gear, meaning you can’t do newer content

Gear progression doesn’t change the raid, the boss will do more damage and have more health to offset your new gear.

You’ve been conditioned into thinking this system is not only acceptable, but encouraged.

Please just get OUT of this mindset.
This mindset is killing MMOs, and you’re being zombies.

@Untouch

I’m not asking for gear progression, I haven’t read any post asking for gear progression.

People are asking that more options be made available to allow people to obtain gear skins, and people are asking for more ways to connect them to the content and to reduce the “grindyness” of gameplay at level 80.

I never said you were asking, other people have been asking though.

Where in this thread do you see that?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-is-Fun-Centric-not-Reward-Centric/page/2#post177548

Here’s one.

Untouch.2541:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-is-Fun-Centric-not-Reward-Centric/page/2#post177548

Here’s one.

1. That was 5 days ago, and isn’t relevant to the direction the thread has taken.

2. He also makes no mention of gear “progression” at all. He talks about loot drops for cosmetic and profit purposes, but not for any purpose in improving his progressive stats.

I don’t see why fun and rewards have to be mutually exclusive. Anet has plenty of mechanisms in place to separate the PvE from the PvP stuff. The dungeon content is there, yet folks aren’t running it all. Don’t see why some carrots can’t be tossed down that creepy corridor. I derive fun through challenges and those challenges having some meaningful reward…. maybe others do as well and some don’t. It’s nice that those challenges have some reward. I’m not a masochist, I don’t enjoy getting the kitten beat out of my toon or some “try try again” jumping puzzle when there’s nothing worthwhile on the other side (not saying the jumping puzzles offer nothing, but if they did then there wouldn’t be much incentive to do them).

“Oh it’ll affect WvW”… scale down gear in WvW so that a player can only have stats equivalent to wearing exotic gear.

“It’s against the design philosophy”… I guess not having players want to try out your content is also part of the philosophy? I guess having a philosophy going into your design means that it’s impossible to revise or reconsider it at any point in the game’s time span. Why do we even care if the ability to get this gear is possible for any player since the entry-requirements to get it are the same, but only requires the players to be willing and competent?

Bruno Sardine.2907:

I don’t see why fun and rewards have to be mutually exclusive.

they don’t have to be – some players (including me) think getting in-game rewards (such as gear, crafting mats, currency, etc.) in an MMO is fun

but if anet doesn’t want me or players like me to play their game, they can just remove all those rewards from their MMO, no big deal to us – we will just give our money to another company that doesn’t remove the rewards from their MMO’s =P

I know you said that somewhat sarcastically… but one of the big pros for me in this game is the flexibility of how to play classes, the active dodging rather than things just being auto-locked onto you, and coordination of class skills through dps synergy rather than the “holy trinity” structure (which calls for a rigid set of playstyles). The GW2 kind of combat gameplay is unique, different, and has been fairly fun. I know breaking from the mold makes for more freedom in doing something new, but not everything that’s “new” is necessarily good.

Bruno Sardine.2907:

I don’t see why fun and rewards have to be mutually exclusive. Anet has plenty of mechanisms in place to separate the PvE from the PvP stuff. The dungeon content is there, yet folks aren’t running it all. Don’t see why some carrots can’t be tossed down that creepy corridor. I derive fun through challenges and those challenges having some meaningful reward…. maybe others do as well and some don’t. It’s nice that those challenges have some reward. I’m not a masochist, I don’t enjoy getting the kitten beat out of my toon or some “try try again” jumping puzzle when there’s nothing worthwhile on the other side (not saying the jumping puzzles offer nothing, but if they did then there wouldn’t be much incentive to do them).

“Oh it’ll affect WvW”… scale down gear in WvW so that a player can only have stats equivalent to wearing exotic gear.

“It’s against the design philosophy”… I guess not having players want to try out your content is also part of the philosophy? I guess having a philosophy going into your design means that it’s impossible to revise or reconsider it at any point in the game’s time span. Why do we even care if the ability to get this gear is possible for any player since the entry-requirements to get it are the same, but only requires the players to be willing and competent?

I agree. You barely see anyone doing dungeons. I spent most of my time in Cursed Shore farming karma and gold and the only Arah runs being done are either the shard farm or the story mode. I have never once seen someone starting a group with the attention of actually completing an explorable path for the dungeon.

Perhaps you should get out more then :p

Like… in Tyria or RL? Cause Tyria only takes up a small percentage of my RL time. As much as I’d be willing to try AC, CoE, or whatever, the lack of an actual global chat or LFG system means I have to be in Lion’s Arch doing nothing in the meantime while LFG or I have to be in that particular zone the dungeon is in doing stuff in that zone while I’m LFG; regardless of whether or not I actually want to be doing stuff in that zone.

I would wager that the majority of MMO players see reward(s) as their primary source of fun in that particular genre. For them, a single-player RPG would suffice as a source of pure “fun,” but, in their view, MMOs are about character progression, competition, and the accumulation of intangible rewards/items/money/etc.

And that’s the problem with MMOS!
Might as well just make a “click2item” button with a bunch of flashy lights, because that’s what pepole want.

Gambit.7836:

I would wager that the majority of MMO players see reward(s) as their primary source of fun in that particular genre. For them, a single-player RPG would suffice as a source of pure “fun,” but, in their view, MMOs are about character progression, competition, and the accumulation of intangible rewards/items/money/etc.

I would disagree with this statement. I think the reward/raiding hounds are only a portion of the MMO community, ultimately no bigger than say RPers or PVPers. I believe WoW has created an illusion that these types are the majority of MMO players. If they were SWTOR wouldn’t have burnt so fast.

There’s large group of players looking for a more virtual world experience now that really haven’t been targeted by any MMO company in recent years.

Derpinator.2894:

I mean, if you want to brag that you gutted out the same dungeon 1,000 times to get your armor, nobody’s stopping you. We see the uber armor. We know you spent mountains of your time to get it. Why is it necessary that that be the ONLY way to get it?

How does me spending time doing other things that I enjoy stop you from enjoying your armor?

Still not getting it…

I have no intention of trying to get any of the hard-to get armors. I’ll probably never do a single dungeon in this game because I don’t enjoy dungeons. I’m finding the armor looks I want for my characters in the lower-end sets. I’ve already transmuted two more powerful pieces of armor down because I prefer the look of the armor I already have.

ANET has set up certain “looks” of armors to commemorate certain activities, like for people that like to PvP, or people that like to craft, or people that like to run dungeons. Asking them to provide alternate means for obtaining commemorative fashions is like asking the armed services for alternative ways to obtain the purple heart or the silver star, or asking a fair to offer alternative ways to get a blue ribbon for winning the hot-dog eating contest.

Okay, if the “look” of the dungeon-commemorative armor just happens to be the one armor look in the game that you really, really want to have on your character, then it’s just an unlucky coincidence that that particular graphic wasn’t the one they offered in the cash shop, or isn’t one of the sets you an get just killing ordinary mobs throughout the game.

If it is just an unlucky coincidence, I think it’s bad judgement on your part to be in here arguing that there should be an alternative path to get dungeon-running armor vanity plates because you don’t want to do the dungeon-running necessary to get it.

Bruno Sardine.2907:

I don’t see why fun and rewards have to be mutually exclusive.

As far as I know, nobody argued they are mutually exclusive.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

I have no intention of trying to get any of the hard-to get armors. I’ll probably never do a single dungeon in this game because I don’t enjoy dungeons.

You have got to be kidding me.

You have no plans on experiencing dungeon content, but you’ll actively forbid other players from finding ways to make it more enjoyable?

Anishor.6921:

Gambit.7836:

I would wager that the majority of MMO players see reward(s) as their primary source of fun in that particular genre. For them, a single-player RPG would suffice as a source of pure “fun,” but, in their view, MMOs are about character progression, competition, and the accumulation of intangible rewards/items/money/etc.

I would disagree with this statement. I think the reward/raiding hounds are only a portion of the MMO community, ultimately no bigger than say RPers or PVPers. I believe WoW has created an illusion that these types are the majority of MMO players. If they were SWTOR wouldn’t have burnt so fast.

There’s large group of players looking for a more virtual world experience now that really haven’t been targeted by any MMO company in recent years.

This is what I’m personally waiting on. A real WORLD to immerse myself in. Mechanics above and beyond a health pool and how to make somebody else’s reduce to zero. That’s part of the reason I enjoy crafting, because it involves collection and piecing things together to create something new.

Unfortunately, most developers can’t understand the difference between “breadth of content” and “depth of content.” Adding more dungeons is just adding more of the same thing we’ve been doing for years. Add new ways to interact with the world, give me new reasons to explore and find hidden pieces of lore. Create characters that I can’t wait to interact with, instead of being glorified quest hubs.

I enjoy combat and finding a new shiny piece of gear as much as the next person, but if I just wanted to play a combat simulator all day, I’d pick up a game that actually has good combat… like Street Fighter, or Devil May Cry. I want to play an MMO, because there’s a persistent world that changes based on my actions, and has secrets to explore and uncover.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

I have no intention of trying to get any of the hard-to get armors. I’ll probably never do a single dungeon in this game because I don’t enjoy dungeons.

You have got to be kidding me.

You have no plans on experiencing dungeon content, but you’ll actively forbid other players from finding ways to make it more enjoyable?

Forbid? How would I do that?

What I’m actively arguing against is the notion that what are essentially dungeon-running commemorative vanity plates be available to those who don’t do the dungeon runs. That’s right – that means I’ll never get those vanity plates. It also means I’ll never get PvP vanity plates. If I really like the look of that armor, oh well, there’s other good looks in the game. Maybe they’ll even come out with cash shop looks I really like.

What I’m arguing to keep is the integrity of the game design and philosophy. What I’m arguing to keep intact is what I consider to be ANET’s core, fun-centric game philosophy where players are rewarded for doing what they find fun, not for seeking out rewards in and of themselves which basically turns everything in the game to a reward-centric game mentality grind.

Which we can see exists, since so many people here havfe already flatly stated that the game is all about rewards, and that the rest of the game is essentially nonexistent in any meaningful way.

What I’m actively arguing against is the notion that what are essentially dungeon-running commemorative vanity plates be available to those who don’t do the dungeon runs.

Show me one post that suggested that. You’re arguing against a point that nobody made.

What I’m arguing to keep is the integrity of the game design and philosophy.

What philosophy is that? To keep the game entirely the same way from the moment it was pushed out the door? To restrict any and all constructive feed back? Go read some dev posts, they are LITTERED w/ ArenaNet employees explicitly asking that players bring them positive, constructive feedback to help them improve the game.

… not for seeking out rewards in and of themselves which basically turns everything in the game to a reward-centric game …

So riddle me this hot shot. If this game is soooo “fun-centric”, then why is there even a leveling system at all?

The reason i’ve always been playing mmo’s is not because it’s fun all the way. It’s just a great feeling to get to that next level you’ve been working for or getting that one awesome weapon you’ve always wanted. To be honest, the fun thing in almost every game is the achievement stuff imo.

One more thing on this topic. There should be some way to show off your achievement points. Perhaps a title or something. “Daring adventurer” = 2000 Achievement Points (just a random example). If there is such a mechanic i’m just unaware of it atm.

The best thing imo would be Achievement armors.

Lance Coolee.9480:

What I’m actively arguing against is the notion that what are essentially dungeon-running commemorative vanity plates be available to those who don’t do the dungeon runs.

Show me one post that suggested that. You’re arguing against a point that nobody made.

What I’m arguing to keep is the integrity of the game design and philosophy.

What philosophy is that? To keep the game entirely the same way from the moment it was pushed out the door? To restrict any and all constructive feed back? Go read some dev posts, they are LITTERED w/ ArenaNet employees explicitly asking that players bring them positive, constructive feedback to help them improve the game.

… not for seeking out rewards in and of themselves which basically turns everything in the game to a reward-centric game …

So riddle me this hot shot. If this game is soooo “fun-centric”, then why is there even a leveling system at all?

-so you cant go to the most epic areas/dungeons right away
-so you can learn the game system without being overwhelmed with too many skills/trait at first.

Anet was brave to make it only skinbased, but i dont think it will hold.

The players that keeps the game flaoting and expanding are the players that wants character progression, gear and other rewards.
Without “raids” to keep people trying to achieve content as larger groups for months, theres really not much to mmos nowadays then looking at pixalated flowers and clouds.
And no, there havent been any bigger mmos that arent about getting better gear.

Show me one post that suggested that. You’re arguing against a point that nobody made.

Greyfeld said:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

To which you replied:

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

What would “helping out in other areas of the game map” mean other than something other than the dungeon? You either agree 100% with being able to choose whatever skins you want, whether you’ve done any dungeons or not, or you don’t agree with that choice option.

What philosophy is that? To keep the game entirely the same way from the moment it was pushed out the door?

No, to keep the design philosophy intact, as I said.

Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map?

Why shouldn’t I be able to purchase any skin I want from the cash shop?

So riddle me this hot shot. If this game is soooo “fun-centric”, then why is there even a leveling system at all?

Because leveling is fun. My argument has never been that leveling or any other reward is “not fun”; my argument is that the game is fun-centric, and not reward-centric. That doesn’t exclude rewards like gear and leveling from having a valid place in the game design, it just means the game is not designed “around” those things.

If you are on the forums arguing that there is not enough reward to keep doing a thing, the your mindset is reward-centric. If you are willing to lose rewards (money, damaged gear) to keep doing a thing, then your mindset is fun-centric.

Fun and reward are intersecting sets. One is not the subset of the other. There are rewards people will pursue by doing non-fun activities, and there are fun things people will give up rewards for in order to experience (as in: pay for).

Fozzik.1742:

You don’t HAVE to pay 20 gold for exotics now, so I’m guessing you won’t HAVE to do it again. You can play just fine without exotics, and get gear a bunch of other ways. Also, if you’re playing for fun, over time you’ll build up enough money or karma or whatever to get anything you want in the game. Long-term goals that actually take a long time are fine with me. I don’t need to have all the best gear in a month…because I’m enjoying playing the game primarily, and rewards are a natural result over time.

If they add more levels, you’ll get to keep playing exactly the same way you have…having fun and enjoying the content. If you don’t enjoy levels 1-80 in this game for what they are, and are just rushing to get to some place you think will be better…you might as well quit the game. It is what it is, and doesn’t change into something else at max level or in expansions or any time.

We know it’s not a gear treadmill, and never will be. I’ll get top-stat gear eventually through multiple different means without even focusing on it, and I’ll never NEED top stat gear to do any of the content (other than the natural leveling curve). If I CHOOSE to go after a specific look, that’s entirely my decision, and is not required in any way…and there is no ladder of tiers of gear that I’m forced to climb in order to unlock content, and there never will be. I’m so glad there’s one game like this, finally.

Saying that I don’t understand because I’m below level 80 is nonsense. The game doesn’t change at level 80…it just continues. You are the one who doesn’t understand, because you rushed to level 80 expecting there to be something there that ArenaNet always said there wouldn’t be. They made it entirely crystal clear throughout their marketing how the game would work and what it would be like, and some of us understood it completely before we ever even played. If it’s coming as a surprise to you…sorry, but you’re the one with the issue. I got (and am getting) exactly what I expected (a fun-centric game), and I love it. When I get to level 80, the entire world will be open to me to explore and enjoy events and help out other players. In other words, to just have fun and not constantly be banging my head worrying about whether I’m getting maximum rewards.

People who are confining themselves to a couple of zones at level 80 because they refuse to play the game without constantly getting maximum rewards are missing the point and ruining their own fun.

Guess what dude, the content is finite, you WILL end up exhausting it all and be left with repetition. It is inevitable.

You think I got to level 80 and just started complaining?

No, I did every zone 100%, even got the explorer deeds to 100%, I’ve even done every jumping puzzle in the game. I’ve found just about every nook and cranny and detail and tucked away chest. I’ve done WvW, I’ve done dungeons (aside from every branch in explorable mode, and Arah, which I’m waiting for the fix to the loot to do for my PS), I’ve done all the meta events in game, and done a fair share of just the events in game I could find.

I’m down to repetition, in other words.

I’d finish up the dungeons… except for explorable mode is designed around having an organized team, not a PuG, and the reason why it’s hard to convince guildies to do them is because they just lack reward. Challenge without reward is just a stupid design. Every challenge in GW1 had rewards to go along with it, why change that?

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

What would “helping out in other areas of the game map” mean other than something other than the dungeon? You either agree 100% with being able to choose whatever skins you want, whether you’ve done any dungeons or not, or you don’t agree with that choice option.

If it takes a week to grind out the tokens to get your set through dungeons, or a week to grind out the tokens to get your set through DEs (or hearts, or crafting, or even simply farming), then it doesn’t actually matter where you get the tokens. You’re putting in the same amount of effort and time into the same end product. The only difference is that, in this case, people are allowed to choose the path they take to their goal, instead of being forced into a singular playstyle in order to reach the armor set they wish to acquire.

This isn’t the same as “I did a dungeon, so I should get everything on the first run.” It’s spreading the wealth, so that people can choose to do dungeons, or choose to do something completely different, for the same reward, as long as they put in an equal amount of effort.

Greyfeld,

So, to be clear, you’re advocating that they ditch the concept of activity-specific commemorative vanity plates because they might require activities you personally don’t care to do to acquire plates you happen to like?

wollie.9751:

Devildoc.6721:

wollie.9751:

NEWSFLASH!

GW2 has a power plateau! its easy to get to. This was advertised many many many many times before release. Either get used to it or get out. It will not change, and us GW2 players do not want it to change. This game is different from most other games, its kinda why we like it.

Yes, and that’s fine, my main complaint, is that explorable mode dungeons, and jumping puzzles, and large scale meta events, reward paltry amounts of silver/copper.

I’m fine with the armor/weapons from explorable dungeons being no better than crafted pieces aside from looks. That’s fine.

The problem lies in 1 person wants a specific look, another person wants a different look, and another person doesn’t like any of the dungeon looks. Now how do you go about telling these people to run dungeons with you… it’s begging. They’ll run it for “fun” maybe once or twice, then they’ll be tired of it and will have to sludge through it for your sake for another 30 runs. That’s AWFUL design.

Make it worth their time too. Ideally, at least compensate more in game money. Ideally I believe there should be a daily explorable dungeon achievement that rewards 1 gold.

Would that be asking too much? Do 1 dungeon per day, get a gold, plus whatever drops in the dungeon. I think i could convince people easier to run dungeons if there was that.

This game is so tightfisted about awarding currency, the only real way to make money is to play the AH instead of playing the game.

GW1, yes, power traders still made the most money, but quests still gave decent money. Doing a DOA run you’d net about 50 platinum between quest reward and dropped gold.. Not counting the gemstones which you could sell to other players or save up for a handfull of runs (like 6) for an armbrace or tormented weapon which you could also sell to other players.

Here you run, get like 30s and get a bunch of SOULBOUND stuff that you can’t trade.

Unless you actually want the cosmetics for the weapon or armor, or need the gift for a legendary, or the sigil/rune, which, most of the time the sigils are terrible and the runes are not as good as runes you can get elsewhere…. dungeons aren’t worth running more than twice per path.

I totally agree with you. They need to add loadstones, ectos or some other desirable to the dungeon vendors so if you dont want the cosmetics you at least can spend your tokens on something. In general dungeons are to much of a grind right now and Anet has already said that they are changing that.

My post was not directed at people like you, but people who want fundamental changes to the core concepts of GW2. Of course they are going to tweak things.

buy ectos and lodestones for dungeon tokens? I could get behind that.

They need to not be soulbound though.

Ectos cost roughly 2 bosses worth of tokens, lodestones roughly 1 full run, something like that.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Greyfeld,

So, to be clear, you’re advocating that they ditch the concept of activity-specific commemorative vanity plates because they might require activities you personally don’t care to do to acquire plates you happen to like?

Despite your condescending tone, yest that’s exactly what I’m proposing.

If these were sets that actually dropped inside the dungeon, and had lore and history attached to them, that’d be one thing. But it’s not. It’s vendor gear that you just happen to have to run dungeons (or farm karma) to purchase.

Putting aside the fact that vendor gear should be attainable by any player, through their chosen type of gameplay, this also nestles neatly inside Anet’s supposed design philosophy, because it encourages gamers to choose their own play style, instead of shoehorning them into doing something they don’t want to do.

@Wintyre:

I challenge you to give me one clear, thought out, logical reason why making the same “vanity plates” available through different means would negatively affect you and the community.

I have never seen SO much fanboy in a single thread. Reading this is certainly more fun than doing any of the dungeons!