Guild Wars 2

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Bruno Sardine.2907:

I don’t see why fun and rewards have to be mutually exclusive.

As far as I know, nobody argued they are mutually exclusive.

You did. Please refer to your thread title, then refer to every other reply you have made since the start of this thread. Unless of course, you have a selective memory, or your definition of NOT reward-centric happens to differ from the rest of the human race, in either case you need help.

cuz the game is limited even if u get evry item in the game they are all SAME just cosmetic things

Pikafan.3792:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Bruno Sardine.2907:

I don’t see why fun and rewards have to be mutually exclusive.

As far as I know, nobody argued they are mutually exclusive.

You did. Please refer to your thread title, then refer to every other reply you have made since the start of this thread. Unless of course, you have a selective memory, or your definition of NOT reward-centric happens to differ from the rest of the human race, in either case you need help.

Nope, I never made the claim they are mutually exclusive, nor implied it, and in several posts I explicitly stated that the two are not mutually exclusive.

Lance Coolee.9480:

@Wintyre:

I challenge you to give me one clear, thought out, logical reason why making the same “vanity plates” available through different means would negatively affect you and the community.

I never said it would negatively affect me. It will have no affect on me whatsoever. It will negatively affect those who enjoy striving for badges (skins) that commemorate specific in-game activities like running dungeons.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Lance Coolee.9480:

@Wintyre:

I challenge you to give me one clear, thought out, logical reason why making the same “vanity plates” available through different means would negatively affect you and the community.

I never said it would negatively affect me. It will have no affect on me whatsoever. It will negatively affect those who enjoy striving for badges (skins) that commemorate specific in-game activities like running dungeons.

So your actual argument is actually that achievements should be visible in some way. I’d get on board with that.

Oddly, if the “visible” thing is a token, a sprite, a memento hanging over my character, I could care less about some and really want others.

But if it’s what my character wears all the time, every time I look at them… I want options for getting there. Or maybe I don’t. I’ll have to think about it.

I mean, a specific set of armor for completing 1,000 dungeons, that can only be gotten that way almost sounds worthwhile. But that’s not the same as completing the same dungeon 1,000 times.

I’m not sure why.

So. Badges for specific accomplishments: good. Character defining skins for them: bad.

Or maybe not. Time to do some thinking.

[edit: fixed a posession thing in the grammar]

For all those who still insist that the dungeons in GW2 is fun-centric and should not be reward-centric, then I’d propose that Anet should just remove all sorts of drops, tokens, gold, whatsoever in it and make it purely for people who think they can have so much fun doing it.

Common sense dictate that a plethora of players will whine and leave running dungeons altogether, and Anet can start working (or reworking) dungeon from there to make it so fun, people truly do it for the sake of fun; like how we do PVP just for the sake of fun.

Of course, common sense also dictates if they just balance the rewards system, it’d satisfied more player base and mindset than the 1st proposal.

(or maybe just have 1 or 2 zero reward dungeons and test to see if your fun-centric philosophy is truly workable; you’d know immediately if any one runs it at all. and then we can do away with rewards in all dungeons!)

Strifer.3507:

For all those who still insist that the dungeons in GW2 is fun-centric and should not be reward-centric, then I’d propose that Anet should just remove all sorts of drops, tokens, gold, whatsoever in it and make it purely for people who think they can have so much fun doing it.

Common sense dictate that a plethora of players will whine and leave running dungeons altogether, and Anet can start working (or reworking) dungeon from there to make it so fun, people truly do it for the sake of fun; like how we do PVP just for the sake of fun.

Of course, common sense also dictates if they just balance the rewards system, it’d satisfied more player base and mindset than the 1st proposal.

(or maybe just have 1 or 2 zero reward dungeons and test to see if your fun-centric philosophy is truly workable; you’d know immediately if any one runs it at all. and then we can do away with rewards in all dungeons!)

People might run them once or twice but it’d prove the point that repetition decreases the fun value.

Elydian.1763:

You don’t, evidently, but you can’t just encourage those sorts of people to just leave the game, else I think you’ll find the game will fail, just like SWTOR did before, for the same basic reason: there was nothing for PvEers to do at cap after a couple of months.

This game was never advertised to be a pve-centered game. PvP was always a major focus for the developers. If all of the pve-ers left and never came back, the game would still be more “successful” than any other mmo that has been released since wow. Have you even seen the numbers? This game is not for pve-grinders. It just isn’t. It never will be. Let it go.

I agree with you. They follow their philosophy they have started and this game shows that. I, myself, don’t like it.

In my opinion they use word “fun” like you. Very egotistical and narrow.
Fun can be had in almost anything. Be it a completely mindless farming or thorough mathematical solution. It only depends on you.
And to have anyone, ANet or you, telling us, that something is more fun, just because it doesn’t allow certain behavior or support this and that, is hypocritical.

How could GW2 be less fun with gear progression? You are playing it. You don’t have to follow this philosophy of gear grind if you don’t want to, so you are still having fun, “doing whatever thing we’re doing and for whom rewards are just a secondary bonus for our activity”. Why would you grind for gear if fun, for you, is somewhere else. How can that kind of game make it less fun for you? You just don’t do it.
It easy to not do something that you have an option for, bit it’s impossible to do something you would want to if there is not way of doing it?

What does that mean for the gaming future? Games will support less and less player feedback (options, personal choices, playstyle) and will force feed us their philosophy. Are we individuals or drones?

symke.3105:

What does that mean for the gaming future? Games will support less and less player feedback (options, personal choices, playstyle) and will force feed us their philosophy. Are we individuals or drones?

There are plenty of games out there that fully support what you want to do. Nobody is forcing you to play GW2. IMO, in a town full of Italian restaurants, it seems to me to be a bad idea to walk into the only Mexican food restaurant in town and start complaining that they don’t offer Italian cuisine.

Sure, you can say it’s very egotistical and narrow to only serve Mexican food, but I think that kind of complaint should fall on deaf ears.

Its a geat concept “this game is about fun, not rewards”.

But GW2 does not reflect this at high level. If its just about fun at not rewards why are there all these hugely expensive items in game. How much fun is it to try to earn huge ammounts of money, tokens, karma for end game items.

The list of required mats for the legendary weapons is not a roadmap to fun, its an invitition to a major grind fest. A grind fest that now has a number of artificial roadblocks added to slow down how quickly people will achieve it.

Its not honest design on the one had to say we are about fun, everything else should happen organically while the fun happens and then say btw you need 525k karma (probably neary 750k by the time you have made your mystic clovers) for your legendary weapon.

Think about it , if you repeated enough of the events currently in game to earn 750k karma who you honestly still be having “fun” or would you be bored to tears by the repitition of it all.

I suspect the truth is near to this:

Anets major design concept was “fun not reward or grinding”.

Much of the early game this is very true.

Financial / time pressures forced them to release early before enough end game content could be finished.

In an attempt to keep players in a game without the ammount of end game content they had planned earlier in development. They put in the legendary weapons and high price appearance sets to keep players repeating the end game content and not leave the game.

An unforeseen side effect of this is it pushes the hardcore players to try to farm materials or cash but such a large ammount of repitition of the same content isn’t at all fun.

But GW2 does not reflect this at high level. If its just about fun at not rewards why are there all these hugely expensive items in game. How much fun is it to try to earn huge ammounts of money, tokens, karma for end game items.

Sure it does. It’s only “not fun” if you’re trying to get the rewards by doing things you would rather not do. They’re fun if they are bonuses you get for doing content you’d be doing anyway for the fun of it. IOW, if you look at legendary gear in a reward-centric manner (doing content for the purpose of getting the reward), they aren’t fun to try and get. If you look at legendary gear from the fun-centric point of view, that you would be doing the content anyway because you find it to be fun (dungeons, for example), then Legendary gear is just a fun bonus for doing what you enjoy anyway.

i think atm the issue is allot of the event don’t have much of an epic feeling or at the very least feel like completing them or not has some kind of impact on the zone or at least general area.

atm the event system feels too much like the questing we’ve come to expect from normal mmo’s with the quest giver removed. it gives me the feeling they pulled back abit from what they where originally going to go with and instead went with something that would feel far more familiar to us. i would love to have seen what would have happened if they have large scale zone wide events that had real repercussion for a ZONE.
also not helped by the way the map tracks events. might have been a better idea to have them show on the map as long as your in the zone instead of being right next to them.

i do like what they’ve done, but because of the way they went with gear they needed open world content to be fun and more importantly repeatable while still being fun, which atm doesn’t feel like it is.

I agree with Fraust on almost everything he says.

That being said, there is one point I disagree with him and believe that a change in this aspect of the game wouldnt have any negative impact at all: the token system.

I don’t think there is a reason for specific tokens being the only currency for specific dungeon gear. They could have made it many different ways that would make the goal less repetitive and interesting.

For example, instead of tokens, the npcs would “craft” you that piece of gear for a combination of 2, maybe 3 items. One of them you would have to get from that specific dungeon, the others from the outside world. Quantities on each of those items would be where they would balance the system to make it interesting without removing completely the need to visit that specific dungeon. Its more like what we have on GW1 right now.

Now, about gear progression, I’m completely against it for reasons I’m tired to explain. It promotes elitism and give people ways to preemptively measure others capacities just by previously acomplishments, in this case, gear, which leads to many other problems. This kind of thing never had place in Guild Wars 1 and I doubt it will ever have it here as well.

lol.

What an awkward title.

Several people find rewards to be fun. You know, like when you apply a lot of effort for an exam and deal with the pressures that compound it, and a week later you find out you scored 92/100.

That is an uplifting, rewarding feeling, and it’s fun as hell.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

But GW2 does not reflect this at high level. If its just about fun at not rewards why are there all these hugely expensive items in game. How much fun is it to try to earn huge ammounts of money, tokens, karma for end game items.

Sure it does. It’s only “not fun” if you’re trying to get the rewards by doing things you would rather not do. They’re fun if they are bonuses you get for doing content you’d be doing anyway for the fun of it. IOW, if you look at legendary gear in a reward-centric manner (doing content for the purpose of getting the reward), they aren’t fun to try and get. If you look at legendary gear from the fun-centric point of view, that you would be doing the content anyway because you find it to be fun (dungeons, for example), then Legendary gear is just a fun bonus for doing what you enjoy anyway.

It’s like telling people to kill 1 million rats for fun and get a legendary weapon as a secondary bonus. And to add salt to wound you continue to suggest not to get legendary weapon if killing 1 million rats is not fun for you.
See how this logic fails?

It is becoming obvious that the people who are arguing “fun” vs “rewards” in these threads are a bit slow or just havent experienced 80 yet…

You can’t have experienced 80 and not noticed that its a grind for rewards that you purchase from repeatedly farming karma, tokens, badges, gold, or mats.

Fact 1 – This is not Insert MMO name here
Fact 2 – …But it sure as hell acts like it at 80

/thread

@robot: I seriously don’t understand why you are here or why you play this game? All you do is go from thread to thread, complaining about every single topic which is being discussed. Go get some fresh air, dude.

Hawken.7932:

@robot: I seriously don’t understand why you are here or why you play this game? All you do is go from thread to thread, complaining about every single topic which is being discussed. Go get some fresh air, dude.

Until everyone agrees with my opinion…I will not stop and I will become as redundant as these threads.

Player 1: "Im at 80! Im bored!!!
Player 2: “GO BACK TO WOW!!! I’m level 12 already and I love it!!! You don’t know what your talking about! Go chase a carrot!”

i always saw PVE as a bonus to spvp, upcoming tournaments, and WvW. PVE is the sugar coating, yet it’s arguably the best on the market (maybe not the most plentiful). now we have all these disgruntled mmo’ers coming in, trying to chase their carrots, and complaining on the forums about difficult content, lack of rewards, etc.

GW2 has enough of a fan base to keep it going for a long time. no sense in pretending it’s all doom and gloom because a few raiders and powergamers are shedding their whiny tears. while theyre probably more than welcome to enjoy this game, GW2 wasnt really made for them.

nerva.7940:

i always saw PVE as a bonus to spvp, upcoming tournaments, and WvW. PVE is the sugar coating, yet it’s arguably the best on the market (maybe not the most plentiful). now we have all these disgruntled mmo’ers coming in, trying to chase their carrots, and complaining on the forums about difficult content, lack of rewards, etc.

GW2 has enough of a fan base to keep it going for a long time. no sense in pretending it’s all doom and gloom because a few raiders and powergamers are shedding their whiny tears. while theyre probably more than welcome to enjoy this game, GW2 wasnt really made for them.

Fair points, I think. I’m not into sPvP as much, but most of my guild is loving both the dungeons and WvW and don’t really have big issues with either. You’re right though, I think there’s a ton to do. My background is mostly raiding in other games, and the dungeons are satisfying that niche for now, and then a mix of the world events, exploring and WvW will fill the rest.

I think this thread was meant to be a constructive dissection on the game’s problem and offer ways to improve. And a few pages of replies later we now see fanboys and armchair gamer psychologists what should and should not be fun, and people should or should not be playing this game.

The epic derailment is rather amusing.

Let’s all restrain from defining what is fun and impose your idea of fun to other individuals. The thread is made because the poster didn’t have fun, and the number of replies and relevant topics show that his grievance is shared by many others. What I’m seeing is that some people are spewing walls of text—with sensible words, but nothing constructive to the improvement of the game (and only reinforcing/preaching their own idea of “fun”).

Most logical suggestions regarding rewards (which arenanet recently started to implement) have no negative impact to those who already consider the controversial aspects the game are fun. The only conclusion I can reach is that some posters seem to want their kind of “fun” to be as exclusive as possible, although in truth the ideas are not mutually exclusive at all.

Hopefully this thread can recover from this derailment, but I won’t hold my breath.

kgptzac.8419:

I think this thread was meant to be a constructive dissection on the game’s problem and offer ways to improve. And a few pages of replies later we now see fanboys and armchair gamer psychologists what should and should not be fun, and people should or should not be playing this game.

The epic derailment is rather amusing.

Let’s all restrain from defining what is fun and impose your idea of fun to other individuals. The thread is made because the poster didn’t have fun, and the number of replies and relevant topics show that his grievance is shared by many others. What I’m seeing is that some people are spewing walls of text—with sensible words, but nothing constructive to the improvement of the game (and only reinforcing/preaching their own idea of “fun”).

Most logical suggestions regarding rewards (which arenanet recently started to implement) have no negative impact to those who already consider the controversial aspects the game are fun. The only conclusion I can reach is that some posters seem to want their kind of “fun” to be as exclusive as possible, although in truth the ideas are not mutually exclusive at all.

Hopefully this thread can recover from this derailment, but I won’t hold my breath.

Did you even read the OP?

It had nothing to do w/ him having or not having fun, let alone any logical suggestions on how to rectify any issues. Rather he made attempts to do exactly what you said, which is define what “fun” should and should not be as he attempts to “prescribe” as being from ANet’s manifesto.

Rewards are needed they give you the feeling of a job well done.
And everyone wants rewards and I mean everyone.
How many of you would play if nothing dropped no new armor or weapons what you start with is all you get. No xp no titles nothing for anything you do.
How many of you would go to work if you didn’t get payed.
A pay check is a reward of doing a job.
Collecting a piece of armor or weapon for defeating a boss is a job.
But hey what do I know I have only been on this earth for 44 years and remember when video games really started to be popular.