Guild Wars 2

All my toons were 80 when this went into effect. The only class I did not have was a mesmer, so I made one a week or so ago. Now he is level 36 and the trait system is horrible. It is enough to make me stop playing the alt and go back to my other toons.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

It did exist and we got to enjoy the seer pleasure of it. You are talking about “What if’s” and this is NOW. There seems to be a backlash and not just because the old system gave you a more progression feeling. It’s apparent something is broken here!

ozmaniandevil.6805:

I can guarantee you i would feel just as frustrated and appalled at this system had it been in here at launch. Bad is bad.

Yeah, seriously.

I have just three eighties – I’m not really an alting man. Had this been in place at launch I wouldn’t even have that many, and I might’ve uninstalled a long time ago.

This new system is objectively worse. “Dull and boring old system”? Are you mad?

I’ve actively avoided my lower level alts since this change went in. Even though one of them is grandfathered in; it’s a mesmer and highly trait dependent. So.. he’s not 60 yet, so good luck.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

< insert gas station analogy here >

The only reason anyone is complaining about this is the notion that it used to be given away before.

1. That is precisely why people are complaining. It did exist. It was changed. People didn’t like the change. Therefore people have the right to complain about preferring the older system. I fail to see where you’re going with this…
2. And yes, it used to be given away. Was there something wrong with the way people could play with their builds with freedom? Why did this need to be changed when there was nothing wrong with it in the first place?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

tofumon.5924:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Old players want the old system back . New players want the old system back. Pretty good hint that nobody likes this new system.

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

Imagine…..
Filling your car at the station was completely free for the longest time….
Then someone comes along and says….
From this moment onward, you need to pay for your gasoline.
Imagine the uproar.

back to reality…. if you did the same thing…. asked the same question in the world today….. nobody would be complaining about having to pay, since it has always been this way… and nobody knows what it is like to get free gas. Of course everyone is going to want to get it for free….. but they aren’t going to think that paying for it is so absolutely horrible that they need to complain about it (and sure people will complain about the price…. but they never knew a world where it would be free…. so the notion of paying is already normal)

Same exact thing here.

The only reason anyone is complaining about this is the notion that it used to be given away before.

Oh boy, car metaphors, here we go:

No, what this new system is saying is "Hey you want that gas over there? OK, you just need to take your prius off roading for about 200 miles up that steep incline for 2 gallons of gas. But hey, if there are others out there they can help you up that hill and if not you could always just buy those 2 gallons from me for 50 dollars and one of those rare coins you found. Also, for each gallon over 2 you have to pay me an additional 50 dollars and 3 more of those rare coins, BUT you won’t get to start buying more gas until you’ve driven at least 30,000 miles and then again at the 60,000 mile mark. Oh, and this off road thing is just the beginning. Near the end you’ll have to pull that ptrain on a hitch in your prius, but don’t worry, there should be more people there to help you haul it. Or you know, you can just be lazy and buy the gas with money and coins you probably don’t have.

The system is broken. Strictly from a game design perspective, it is inherently broken as it is now. It is cost prohibitive and does the exact OPPOSITE of what Anet said they intended it for, which was to encourage build diversity. it also highly discourages the creation of alts by new and veteran players alike.

sonicsix.5713:

All my toons were 80 when this went into effect. The only class I did not have was a mesmer, so I made one a week or so ago. Now he is level 36 and the trait system is horrible. It is enough to make me stop playing the alt and go back to my other toons.

I already had a lvl 80 Thief and Ranger and wanted to play Guardian. I had a lvl 30 Guardian but I wanted to play from scratch because I had forgotten most of the personal story. Anyway, I had no idea about the new trait system as I had been away from the game for over a year. I got to lvl 36 and notice my traits are locked. I look at the unlock criteria for a few I want. I go to the maps to kill the required champions, and of course they’re not there. So, I just gave up and just bought the skills even though I’m not particularly rich. I got my Guardian to lvl 59 and notice that I’ve only unlocked 4 traits. 2 of them were part of map completion that I happened to do while I was leveling my character. The other 2 I bought. Of the 4 I have unlocked only 1 is being used for me as my character is basically 5/5/0/0/10.

Then I realize how much work it would be unlock all the stupid traits so I log out and delete my character. and start playing my old lvl 30 Guardian because at least he’s got all of the traits (except for the Grandmasters) unlocked.

This will be my last alt, if I continue to even play, because the game lost its appeal so fast. If I wasn’t someone who pre-ordered this game and had a few low level alts just made but not leveled, I wouldn’t be playing this game. As it stands right now, I wouldn’t even recommend this game to my friends.

This game is a nightmare for new players and I’d be surprised if new players even stay around after lvl 40 or so.

I think the only difference between having this system in place now, and not at launch, is that there would have been copious complaints at lauch instead of now. Srsly. This game probably never would have survived 6 months. The only reason a lot of us are still here is because we have our high level characters already and really do not need to make alts.

P.S. I have perservered and now have my ranger at level 69. Still have only 4 traits that I got by mapping. I did not seek out any. I’m simply leveling and mapping, much as a new player would. 4 traits, and I’ve got 30% of the world mapped. Yikes.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

tofumon.5924:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Old players want the old system back . New players want the old system back. Pretty good hint that nobody likes this new system.

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

Imagine…..
Filling your car at the station was completely free for the longest time….
Then someone comes along and says….
From this moment onward, you need to pay for your gasoline.
Imagine the uproar.

back to reality…. if you did the same thing…. asked the same question in the world today….. nobody would be complaining about having to pay, since it has always been this way… and nobody knows what it is like to get free gas. Of course everyone is going to want to get it for free….. but they aren’t going to think that paying for it is so absolutely horrible that they need to complain about it (and sure people will complain about the price…. but they never knew a world where it would be free…. so the notion of paying is already normal)

Same exact thing here.

The only reason anyone is complaining about this is the notion that it used to be given away before.

No. The reason I am complaining is because the game creates false expectations about what your options are through the implementation of this system. It does not accomplish its stated design goals.

At level 30 (36 really) you “get access” to 30 traits. All of them are locked. No problem. The problem is when you go to unlock those traits, you suddenly find that 25 of them are in areas and/or related to tasks that are 20-30 levels above your current level. In practice, you have access to about 5 of the 30 things that the game tells you you should have access to.

The dev goal was stated that this system should help you feel a sense of progression, as stated in the CDI that is credited as the basis for this decision. By giving the Adept traits unlocks in the level 30-60 bracket, the dev team wanted characters to be rewarded for playing through those levels and exploring content of an appropriate strength.

The problem is that by unlocking access to all the Adept traits at level 30, it tells me as a player that I should have a reasonable expectation of having any of those 30 traits in any order I so choose. I find that I can’t because of level gating, or find that it’s behind some of the most tedious content that I don’t enjoy doing, and so I just can’t get the traits.

There is also no rhyme or reason to the level-gating for any given trait. Trait I is not the easiest to get, progressing through Trait VI. Also, Trait I is not always less useful than Trait VI. You can’t create a sense of “meaningful progression” when there’s not actually progression within the tiers. It’s just random.

Yes, I can buy them, but on a new character I don’t have the skill points to buy all the traits I want because I’m still buying my skills. You know, the things skill points were intended for.

I’ve been working on some ideas to revamp the trait system. I’ve made a lot of tables and it’s quite a long text. You can find the whole article here:

* > > > > Trait system revamp theorycrafting < < < < *

A short summary: (With links to the tables of the article)

• Trait tiers unlocked at levels 10, 35 and 60. 2 points at level 10, 1 point each 5 levels from 10 to 80, except levels 35 and 60. This let us introduce traits as a reward much more earlier. Visual explanation here.
• Trait unlocking focuses on dynamic events now. No WvW, no map completion, no Personal Story, no dungeons, and a minimum of jumping puzzles. The chosen dynamic events are part of long event chains, so that players can join easily at any moment and then help others complete the chain. It encourages participating in events, too, one of the game’s core aspects.
• Trait unlocks don’t focus on specific dynamic events. Instead, they focus on a pool of 5 events. Completing any of them lets you choose between 5 traits of the same number. The rewards are daily, too, so if you repeat the same event the next day you get to choose another trait. You can get all the traits without needing to go out of your way. Trait acquisition is distributed so that you can get all the traits by following the zones involved in your Personal Story. Trait distribution across zones here and specific chosen dynamic events here.
• Trait guide coin and skill point prices switched. Skill points are far too valuable for new players, more than gold I would say. The coin price could be too expensive now, but I don’t think it would be too much of a problem, since with this system traits are much more accessible, and any player leveling the normal way will get them as he progresses. A higher gold price encourages playing the content, too. Also added a new Badges of Honor alternative. New prices here.

I think these ideas improve the current system without adding radical changes to them. They keep the horizontal progression feeling of the system, removing the hassles and encouraging players to do dynamic events, which sometimes are left second to Renown Hearts.

They aren’t dependent on each other, so feel free to like on of the sections and dislike the others. Would love to see other players’ suggestions and criticism for this, too.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

The only reason a lot of us are still here is because we have our high level characters already and really do not need to make alts.

Even if we did want to make a new alt, (which I do) just the thought of the new system is a turn off! Question is, after you fine turn all your grandfathered toons, will we suffer with the new trait system or move on?

JonPeters.5630:

Lazuli.2098:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks. I’ll pass this on.

So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.

From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.

I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.

To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.

In response to your query of how best to improve the current trait system (the quickest and easiest way) is to offer those traits that are most annoying to alts
*Map completion
*Dungeons
*World vs World Vs World Achievements
*Irregularly Spawning Bosses/Bugged Events

at a substantially reduced discount of both gold and skill points at any trait vendor. Perhaps Karma could be used as an alternative currency as players that maintain multiple alts (and thus understand the intricacies of their profession) would posses a surfeit whereas newer players would be introduced slowly to all aspects of the game (but only ONCE )as intended.

Lonami.2987:

I’ve been working on some ideas to revamp the trait system. I’ve made a lot of tables and it’s quite a long text. You can find the whole article here:

* > > > > Trait system revamp theorycrafting < < < < *

A short summary: (With links to the tables of the article)

• Trait tiers unlocked at levels 10, 35 and 60. 2 points at level 10, 1 point each 5 levels from 10 to 80, except levels 35 and 60. This let us introduce traits as a reward much more earlier. Visual explanation here.
• Trait unlocking focuses on dynamic events now. No WvW, no map completion, no Personal Story, no dungeons, and a minimum of jumping puzzles. The chosen dynamic events are part of long event chains, so that players can join easily at any moment and then help others complete the chain. It encourages participating in events, too, one of the game’s core aspects.
• Trait unlocks don’t focus on specific dynamic events. Instead, they focus on a pool of 5 events. Completing any of them lets you choose between 5 traits of the same number. The rewards are daily, too, so if you repeat the same event the next day you get to choose another trait. You can get all the traits without needing to go out of your way. Trait acquisition is distributed so that you can get all the traits by following the zones involved in your Personal Story. Trait distribution across zones here and specific chosen dynamic events here.
• Trait guide coin and skill point prices switched. Skill points are far too valuable for new players, more than gold I would say. The coin price could be too expensive now, but I don’t think it would be too much of a problem, since with this system traits are much more accessible, and any player leveling the normal way will get them as he progresses. A higher gold price encourages playing the content, too. Also added a new Badges of Honor alternative. New prices here.

I think these ideas improve the current system without adding radical changes to them. They keep the horizontal progression feeling of the system, removing the hassles and encouraging players to do dynamic events, which sometimes are left second to Renown Hearts.

They aren’t dependent on each other, so feel free to like on of the sections and dislike the others. Would love to see other players’ suggestions and criticism for this, too.

Really like the emphasis on dynamic events since it’s natural to stumble into those and they give a lot of reward already, teaching new players dynamic event = goooood and encouraging experienced players to go back into the world without clogging things up.

So to summarize here:
- take out all WvW requirements
- take out all map completion requirements
- take out all “you need to do the huge bugged meta-event” requirements
- take out jumping puzzle requirements
- substantially reduce costs for buying traits
- make all traits acquired account bound so as to reduce utter repetitiveness
- make it so that we unlock ANY trait in the specific section (adept, master, grandmaster)
- actually make it EASIER for new players to get traits and to experiment with them; so, the complete opposite of what you all did with the “upgrade”

Does this help?? O-o

ozmaniandevil.6805:

So to summarize here:
- take out all WvW requirements
- take out all map completion requirements
- take out all “you need to do the huge bugged meta-event” requirements
- take out jumping puzzle requirements
- substantially reduce costs for buying traits
- make all traits acquired account bound so as to reduce utter repetitiveness
- make it so that we unlock ANY trait in the specific section (adept, master, grandmaster)
- actually make it EASIER for new players to get traits and to experiment with them; so, the complete opposite of what you all did with the “upgrade”

Does this help?? O-o

Interesting way of saying revert lol!

Anyone want to put gold down that no revert happens?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

Imagine…..
Filling your car at the station was completely free for the longest time….
Then someone comes along and says….
From this moment onward, you need to pay for your gasoline.
Imagine the uproar.

back to reality…. if you did the same thing…. asked the same question in the world today….. nobody would be complaining about having to pay, since it has always been this way… and nobody knows what it is like to get free gas. Of course everyone is going to want to get it for free….. but they aren’t going to think that paying for it is so absolutely horrible that they need to complain about it (and sure people will complain about the price…. but they never knew a world where it would be free…. so the notion of paying is already normal)

Same exact thing here.

The only reason anyone is complaining about this is the notion that it used to be given away before.

Although I can see why you’re saying this, I can testify personally that it’s only partly true. I came into the game after the trait changes; yes, it’s true that I didn’t realize what I was missing until I found out what the system had been before.

But… I was never a fan of having to run around doing various crazy tasks to unlock my traits. Case in point, I’ve yet to unlock all of them on a single character and I have 3 level 80s.

In fact, the only reason I tolerated it for a time is because I thought that’s what everyone else had to go through.

In short, it was cute when I was leveling my first character, but it wore on me very quickly and left me feeling stunted at max level, when I wanted to experiment with builds.

Daggos Skelito.2910:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

So to summarize here:
- take out all WvW requirements
- take out all map completion requirements
- take out all “you need to do the huge bugged meta-event” requirements
- take out jumping puzzle requirements
- substantially reduce costs for buying traits
- make all traits acquired account bound so as to reduce utter repetitiveness
- make it so that we unlock ANY trait in the specific section (adept, master, grandmaster)
- actually make it EASIER for new players to get traits and to experiment with them; so, the complete opposite of what you all did with the “upgrade”

Does this help?? O-o

Interesting way of saying revert lol!

Point form suggestions = taken seriously

Well, might as well post this here since it won’t get nearly as much attention in the profession balance or ranger forums… I’m not even really sure if this even belongs here.

Why the stealth “bug fix” for Rangers’ Frost Spirit for the upcoming patch? The reduction from 7% to 0.7 is absurd, making one of our two necessary skills for groups, and PVE content completely meaningless. Rangers will no longer be desired or needed for dungeons. This has essentially killed off all of the skill buffs and weapon DPS hype that was in store for rangers in the upcoming patch.

nethykins.7986:

Anyone want to put gold down that no revert happens?

Of course it won’t happen.

Maybe we should start a separate thread to talk about possible third options? (Options one and two being keeping what we have now, and reverting.)

New trait system is garbage. Please revert the changes.

nethykins.7986:

Anyone want to put gold down that no revert happens?

If the China release didn’t happen, I would have taken you up on that bet. This was released to help the newer players, but all it did was add a layer of confusion and frustration. And how is this good for retention?

I have to voice my opinion on this after returning from months away from this game. All I can say is: Thank god I made alts before this system was rolled out!

This is absolute garbage. I’m in utter disbelief at the fact that this system was an “improvement” over the way leveling, traits, and progression worked before. Instead of spending a little over 3 gold to get full access to a character’s traits and abilities, it now (according to Guild Wars 2 Wiki) costs 43 gold and 360 skill points!?!? (A legendary costs 339 Skill points, and NO, that is not an invitation to increase the amount of SPs it takes to get a legendary!)

Even the fact that I have to spend skill points on traits and not skills is small potatoes compared to the rest of this system!

The whole point, as I understand it, with traits and customization is to tailor a specific class or play style to your personal preference. How on earth is a new player, or an experienced one who rolls a new alt, supposed to figure that out if any opportunity to experiment or sample different configurations is locked behind such an expensive system. If I had just picked this game up, I would have put it back down and demanded a refund. Until that first dungeon run, every 1g is a little accomplishment. Gold should be used for armor, weapons, collectibles, mats, etc. Not for simply tailoring your character to a specific play-style.

“Oh, but it’s okay, you can play content to unlock these traits as well”. So you mean to tell me that the alternative to spending a giant amounts of in-game currencies is to make people slog through content just so they can get access to traits so they can actually play the way they want?! (The issue there being that until they unlock these traits, they’re locked in a play style that they either don’t enjoy or is not optimal for them!) Are you kidding me?!? An alternative to an expensive system is an arduous one?? That means that for every character you make, you either have to spend a buttload of SPs and gold, OR keep doing the same content again just to “unlock your character”. I can’t think of a situation where someone would happily say “Oh boy! In order to BE ABLE TO USE ‘Empowering Might’ I get to do the Obsidian Sanctum JP. OR I could get 100% map completion in the Harathi Hinterlands! Yipeee!” For one trait! (“And then do it again if I want to create another alt?? Be still my beating heart!”)

You people seem to pride yourselves on going against the grain in the MMO market, of upsetting the trends, discouraging farming and grinding, but your implementations are turning you into the worst culprits of this process, right on down to the way. a person. plays. their. character. I still can’t believe this made it into the game. Did nobody in the meeting room raise their hand as ask why this system would be better? And if they didn’t ask, why not??

Is this game’s reward system so broken down that you have to turn character customization and play style into its own reward system as well?

I’m just happy I made all my alts before this was rolled out, and only have three left to get to 80, otherwise, I’d be more PO’d than I already am. I’d like to think I see the positives in things, but I can’t see how this is an improvement, in any way.

SMH. Why ANet? Why?

There are a lot of calls for “revert” here – but I don’t think people realise how hard that is to do from a software development perspective.

GW2 is an extremely complex game with many interdependent systems. It’s inevitable that there will be other systems in the game which now depend on code in the new Traits system. Rolling back to the “old” system would break things elsewhere.

This practically means that a roll-back or revert might take nearly as much development resource as building Traits 3.0. Thus the desire to “hotfix” as much as possible and then use the learnings from Traits 2.0 (current) to make a really good next iteration. This learning comes from data analysis of actual players (e.g. how many are really getting stuck due to traitlock at level 40, 60 etc. vs getting to 80 and playing regularly) – as well as forum members and other feedback points.

Of course, implementing Traits 3.0 means adjusting all of the parts of the system that depend on the current system. As a result, this can’t just happen any time. It needs to be part of a “whole-of-system” review. So maybe we’ll see this in Feature Pack 3, 4 or 5…

In the meanwhile, the best thing readers of this thread can do is give them info to implement hotfixes within the current system. If we can help them get 60% of the way there with hotfixes then they can focus Feature Pack 3 or 4 effort on making new stuff vs. fixing existing stuff.

ZaidDyan.3057:

There are a lot of calls for “revert” here – but I don’t think people realise how hard that is to do from a software development perspective.

GW2 is an extremely complex game with many interdependent systems. It’s inevitable that there will be other systems in the game which now depend on code in the new Traits system. Rolling back to the “old” system would break things elsewhere.

This practically means that a roll-back or revert might take nearly as much development resource as building Traits 3.0. Thus the desire to “hotfix” as much as possible and then use the learnings from Traits 2.0 (current) to make a really good next iteration. This learning comes from data analysis of actual players (e.g. how many are really getting stuck due to traitlock at level 40, 60 etc. vs getting to 80 and playing regularly) – as well as forum members and other feedback points.

Of course, implementing Traits 3.0 means adjusting all of the parts of the system that depend on the current system. As a result, this can’t just happen any time. It needs to be part of a “whole-of-system” review. So maybe we’ll see this in Feature Pack 3, 4 or 5…

In the meanwhile, the best thing readers of this thread can do is give them info to implement hotfixes within the current system. If we can help them get 60% of the way there with hotfixes then they can focus Feature Pack 3 or 4 effort on making new stuff vs. fixing existing stuff.

Well, if they were willing to actually read the thread, there are plenty of ideas for new iterations and hotfixes both. But since they went for almost 5 months without responding to the feedback, there are nearly 50 pages to read, and they don’t want to expend the energy.

I know what Jon Peters wants from us, I just find it insulting.

Yeah, I mean, that’s the bit that’s most annoying. Since the day the April patch dropped, this thread has been active. Then, after months and months, they come in and say “Oh, this thread is too long to read, could you summarize why you’re all so unhappy?”

Summary: The system sucks. It’s absurd to gate character development that way. The cost to “buy” your character is completely out of range for a new character. The quests are absurd. Complete zone completion for a single trait on a single character? Madness. Quests that require champ trains, quests in zones 20 levels higher than the player, WVW objectives that nobody wants to do. The whole thing is stupid, game breaking, and frustrating, and will probably be the reason many of us never level another character. Thus, when we get bored with existing 80s, we’ll probably stop playing. New characters are already leaving when they realize the game is dead levels between 10 and 80.

There. Summarized.

Talk about insulting.

JonPeters.5630:

barefootstep.7026:

nethykins.7986:

I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?

This. So much this.

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.

This is such a pile of bovine waste !

Boring for experienced players ? because exploring lornar pass to a 100 percent isnt ?

Overwhelming for new players ?! as opposed to leveling up to 80 without ANY traits and or build diversity, because that would be too overwhelming.

Have you even TRIED to roll a new toon since the april patch ? of course not !
the only ppl who tried to do that either quit the game or came here to get ignored.

So basically after a radio silence of 4 months+ on a thread that clearly states that fixing what isnt broken in the first place was a huge mistake…
…you STILL think you patched the game for the “greater good” and your stance when facing constructive criticism is :

tutorials are too boring and overwhelming to players , because a skippable dialogue would ruin the experience

we would rather have you spend 43g and 370 skillpoints or grind your butt off with inane challenges

…

Fine !

I shall keep on telling people NOT to purchase GW2 in its current state, there, everyone is happy !

felessan.9587:

I believe this may be more in line with what players were hoping for. Also note, many of the tasks are BELOW the level where you will unlock a trait tier – this is intentional. I believe you will see better results if people can have immediate access to the content and use that to fuel growth, rather than being gated by their level for content they should have access to already.

Notice that most of these tasks are vague and open-ended, designed to compliment a “play as you want” style. Traits are gained in progression without having to force too much checklist style exploration. If a trait is not listed here, it’s because I personally consider it to be at least feasible. Others should comment as necessary.

Suggestions for new trait unlocks:
…

Something like this would be a good improvement on the current unlock system. I recently started a new character (I have a bunch which were created before the new system, so I hadn’t run into the “unlock” mechanism before, except with the new traits), and it’s pretty hard at the early levels (when you get your first traits) to unlock everything.

Also, a friend of mine just recently started playing. When we chatted about the game and looked at his character, I noticed he wasn’t buying slot skills with his skill points (only just enough to fill all the slots, with just a few variations), but was saving the skill points to unlock traits. Which made me go “huh?”, as I had (even in the recent past) tried to unlock as many slot skills as possible (only skipping the couple that are either really expensive or seem of little use).

Might it be an idea to unlock one trait per trait line when you reach the appropriate level (when you get the trait slot), and set up a level-appropriate way to gain more of them (as in the post I quoted above), and give some sort of hint to expose these ways.

This way you show people that:

• hey, you can slot traits!
• there is stuff you can do to get those extra traits.
• the primary use of skill points is to buy skills (and not traits).

You could still allow the traits to be bought with gold and skill points, but (in my experience) you only have an excess of skill points when you reach 80, which is a bit late to start learning about traits.

Another option could be to have “trait points” you can buy with various thing (skill points, laurels, badges of honor, and maybe even karma or dungeon tokens / fractal relics), as an alternative to unlocking them with doing world content.

Great idea to get people out into the world, but add more variety and options so experimenting with builds becomes more viable once again for newer players (also, some of us just either dislike or are very bad at things like PvP or jumping puzzles).

First time posting, played from beginning.

So nearly anything they can do will be a improve to this insult they put in the place of traits. No build diversity, no exploring character. And they insult the playerbase by saying that new players wanted this?! That the new players are too stupid to read anything about the game or using the BRAIN (you know, that mass in you skull) or some common sense?!
And then they come and say “please make us tl:dr version on the feedback topic WE CREATED”?!
Dear god, im very glad i quit after the april apocalypse. Now im sure they wont fix anything, they will just gate more content because they think players are to stupid to undestand anything.
It is for our own good folks! Cheer!

eyestrain.3056:

Lonami.2987:

I’ve been working on some ideas to revamp the trait system. I’ve made a lot of tables and it’s quite a long text. You can find the whole article here:

* > > > > Trait system revamp theorycrafting < < < < *

A short summary: (With links to the tables of the article)

• Trait tiers unlocked at levels 10, 35 and 60. 2 points at level 10, 1 point each 5 levels from 10 to 80, except levels 35 and 60. This let us introduce traits as a reward much more earlier. Visual explanation here.
• Trait unlocking focuses on dynamic events now. No WvW, no map completion, no Personal Story, no dungeons, and a minimum of jumping puzzles. The chosen dynamic events are part of long event chains, so that players can join easily at any moment and then help others complete the chain. It encourages participating in events, too, one of the game’s core aspects.
• Trait unlocks don’t focus on specific dynamic events. Instead, they focus on a pool of 5 events. Completing any of them lets you choose between 5 traits of the same number. The rewards are daily, too, so if you repeat the same event the next day you get to choose another trait. You can get all the traits without needing to go out of your way. Trait acquisition is distributed so that you can get all the traits by following the zones involved in your Personal Story. Trait distribution across zones here and specific chosen dynamic events here.
• Trait guide coin and skill point prices switched. Skill points are far too valuable for new players, more than gold I would say. The coin price could be too expensive now, but I don’t think it would be too much of a problem, since with this system traits are much more accessible, and any player leveling the normal way will get them as he progresses. A higher gold price encourages playing the content, too. Also added a new Badges of Honor alternative. New prices here.

I think these ideas improve the current system without adding radical changes to them. They keep the horizontal progression feeling of the system, removing the hassles and encouraging players to do dynamic events, which sometimes are left second to Renown Hearts.

They aren’t dependent on each other, so feel free to like on of the sections and dislike the others. Would love to see other players’ suggestions and criticism for this, too.

Really like the emphasis on dynamic events since it’s natural to stumble into those and they give a lot of reward already, teaching new players dynamic event = goooood and encouraging experienced players to go back into the world without clogging things up.

Glad you liked it. Any suggestion to improve any of the sections?

I have 13 level 80s between my two accounts and two of them got effected by this new trait system and it truly is horrible. Playing my first warrior at level 6 in WvW was completely doable because it had access to important traits to keep it alive.

I just bought my girlfriend an account a few days ago and it’s like every class is completely useless until 80 thanks to this stupid trait system..

Just one more thing. If you dont like the new traits after april patch DONT PLAY. Really this is the only way we can show the company that we dont support their decision, its not like 47 pages and 2333 posts do any diference.
So if you dont like it, dont play. Show your lack off support. Dont make traffic.

Aliven.4056:

Just one more thing. If you dont like the new traits after april patch DONT PLAY. Really this is the only way we can show the company that we dont support their decision, its not like 47 pages and 2333 posts do any diference.
So if you dont like it, dont play. Show your lack off support. Dont make traffic.

That’s actually what I’ve been doing in a sense…the new LS chapters are the only things keeping me coming back at this point, I haven’t logged into GW2 in quite a while because of of the trait changes. Because if I can’t do my altaholic ways, there is absolutely nothing keeping me going here outside of new content.

I’m playing but not starting any new characters.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

tofumon.5924:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Old players want the old system back . New players want the old system back. Pretty good hint that nobody likes this new system.

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

Imagine…..
Filling your car at the station was completely free for the longest time….
Then someone comes along and says….
From this moment onward, you need to pay for your gasoline.
Imagine the uproar.

back to reality…. if you did the same thing…. asked the same question in the world today….. nobody would be complaining about having to pay, since it has always been this way… and nobody knows what it is like to get free gas. Of course everyone is going to want to get it for free….. but they aren’t going to think that paying for it is so absolutely horrible that they need to complain about it (and sure people will complain about the price…. but they never knew a world where it would be free…. so the notion of paying is already normal)

Same exact thing here.

The only reason anyone is complaining about this is the notion that it used to be given away before.

So lets set aside that traits used to be free for a moment then.

Many of the current trait unlock quests themselves are bad. Several of them are on hidden timers, a big obstacles for new players. A newbie who wants to make his dagger attacks better sees that he needs to kill champion boss X. He goes to the location and can’t find said boss. That boss is on a three hour timer. Newbie has no clue and gets frustrated.

Or newbie has to kill the Overgrown Grub, but that takes a group and nobody is willing to help him. Instead he gets angry messages that he is hurting the WvW effort(which he might very well be, because killing the grub does nothing for the war effort).

I just leveled another character to 64 and I only have access to 6 of 14 trait points… not even 50% of the points and I’m over 75% max level… how is that progression? It’s been more painful than before…

Whats make this weird is it completely contradicts the original game design philosophy. The idea was you could progress doing pretty much anything. WvW, PvP, exploration, dungeons, crafting or questing are all viable ways to level.

The trait changes however force people to do certain types of content. I can’t just go around exploring and doing what I feel like. I have to do these specific 72 quests in order to unlock all my abilities. Or farm and spend a bunch of gold.

Aliven.4056:

Just one more thing. If you dont like the new traits after april patch DONT PLAY. Really this is the only way we can show the company that we dont support their decision, its not like 47 pages and 2333 posts do any diference.
So if you dont like it, dont play. Show your lack off support. Dont make traffic.

This is an interesting suggestion with a couple of major flaws. By not playing after the April 15th patch, you give a clear message that you don’t like something (or you’ve decided to play ESO, which came out around then). Anet doesn’t necessarily credit the trait patch for the change in numbers and probably wouldn’t. Maybe people left over the megaserver after all. Some people hated it. Maybe they left because of other games.

And now, five months later, telling people not to play will tell Anet even less. It’s certain that if someone stops playing right now based on your post, Anet won’t automatically assume a change made five months ago is the reason.

If you think Anet doesn’t know people don’t like the trait changes, I don’t know what to tell you.

@Vayne
Oh i know they are aware lots of people dont like the new traits, they are not blind. Im just saying they dont give a crap about this as long as people play. Hell i see posts here that say “i dont like it but will play regardless”. So they get a message “we dont like it” from this topic and yet nearly everyone is still playing, and sometimes even make a new character to play. Spend gems. What that say to them?
Hmm they dont like it but nothing changed, 5 months and they still playing.
Actions, not words will make a difference.

Look, how hard is this?

Keep the trait teirs, those are fine.

But change it to something like:
You get so many trait options to choose the traits you want, with more at each teir level. you accumulate trait unlock points from activities: a level 30 zones completion gives 1 point for instance, defeating a world boss gives 1 for instance..and so on. Players get to spend these points on what traits they like.

They get to play how they like, and natually obtain a steady increase in the amount of available traits they have access to as they level up (getting them all about level cap on average).

They they dont feel compelled to kitten about the map trying to do specific events that require groups of players and where the event is on a random CD that could take days before you see it (or longer).

This way, if you do a point unlock system, people can do what they want, be it solo pve, pvp, world events etc…

The current system was designed by an idiot who has clearly never played an MMO in their life. if they are an actual player…they have their head so far up their kitten they can see daylight.

Aliven.4056:

@Vayne
Oh i know they are aware lots of people dont like the new traits, they are not blind. Im just saying they dont give a crap about this as long as people play. Hell i see posts here that say “i dont like it but will play regardless”. So they get a message “we dont like it” from this topic and yet nearly everyone is still playing, and sometimes even make a new character to play. Spend gems. What that say to them?
Hmm they dont like it but nothing changed, 5 months and they still playing.
Actions, not words will make a difference.

Sure if people don’t play, they’ll change SOMETHING, but if they don’t know what that something is, the action becomes meaningless.

Suppose a bunch of people lay down in front of city hall, self-gagged and never said what they were protesting.

Then their protest would gain no traction.

Not playing won’t specifically help your cause. It will only indicate that Anet has less people playing without knowing specifically why they’re not playing.

Since Anet is looking into fixing the new system (or they said they will), I don’t see the point of not playing. It won’t aid the cause because Anet will never know that’s why you’re not playing.

Aliven.4056:

@Vayne
Oh i know they are aware lots of people dont like the new traits, they are not blind. Im just saying they dont give a crap about this as long as people play. Hell i see posts here that say “i dont like it but will play regardless”. So they get a message “we dont like it” from this topic and yet nearly everyone is still playing, and sometimes even make a new character to play. Spend gems. What that say to them?
Hmm they dont like it but nothing changed, 5 months and they still playing.
Actions, not words will make a difference.

Why should Anet care if people quit playing? You’ve already paid them to play. But if people stop giving them additional money it may get their attention. New character slots usually translates into more money spent – inventory upgrades, BL keys, boosters, skins, etc. I think Anet has already noticed since they had that sale on character slots.

@Vayne
Thats why i posted this here. And i posted this now cause they could change something after 5 months of feedback. They dont change anything with traits. So it has now meaning if somebody would leave.

@Lazuli
Fair points, just dont want to make traffic. They got metrics how much logins they got so they know if people go and play.
If people leave, nobody will buy anything from shop :P

Aliven.4056:

@Lazuli
Fair points, just dont want to make traffic. They got metrics how much logins they got so they know if people go and play.
If people leave, nobody will buy anything from shop :P

Don’t forget, some people have grandfathered characters, this really doesn’t effect them. BUT, they refuse to make new alts under this system.

I don’t know about anyone else, but my gold stash has almost doubled because I’m not making alts. How is this good for the economy? (good for me)

Leveled a warrior for 1 to 80. It was extremely boring and unrewarding. Normally I love the leveling process in MMOs.

I only have a few traits to my name. Buying traits is way too expensive. I have 2 others 80s that where grandfathered in. I don’t know how this new scavenger hunt is fun for any one.

Lonami.2987:

I’ve been working on some ideas to revamp the trait system. I’ve made a lot of tables and it’s quite a long text. You can find the whole article here:

* > > > > Trait system revamp theorycrafting < < < < *

A short summary: (With links to the tables of the article)

• Trait tiers unlocked at levels 10, 35 and 60. 2 points at level 10, 1 point each 5 levels from 10 to 80, except levels 35 and 60. This let us introduce traits as a reward much more earlier. Visual explanation here.
• Trait unlocking focuses on dynamic events now. No WvW, no map completion, no Personal Story, no dungeons, and a minimum of jumping puzzles. The chosen dynamic events are part of long event chains, so that players can join easily at any moment and then help others complete the chain. It encourages participating in events, too, one of the game’s core aspects.
• Trait unlocks don’t focus on specific dynamic events. Instead, they focus on a pool of 5 events. Completing any of them lets you choose between 5 traits of the same number. The rewards are daily, too, so if you repeat the same event the next day you get to choose another trait. You can get all the traits without needing to go out of your way. Trait acquisition is distributed so that you can get all the traits by following the zones involved in your Personal Story. Trait distribution across zones here and specific chosen dynamic events here.
• Trait guide coin and skill point prices switched. Skill points are far too valuable for new players, more than gold I would say. The coin price could be too expensive now, but I don’t think it would be too much of a problem, since with this system traits are much more accessible, and any player leveling the normal way will get them as he progresses. A higher gold price encourages playing the content, too. Also added a new Badges of Honor alternative. New prices here.

I think these ideas improve the current system without adding radical changes to them. They keep the horizontal progression feeling of the system, removing the hassles and encouraging players to do dynamic events, which sometimes are left second to Renown Hearts.

They aren’t dependent on each other, so feel free to like on of the sections and dislike the others. Would love to see other players’ suggestions and criticism for this, too.

Great eye for events!

I have a few suggestions.

First, the selected events may be too specific. Long chain events particularly take too much time and the reset timers for the events is frequently too long or difficult to track – it’s my single biggest gripe with Lord Ignius. What are your thoughts?

Second, the idea of completing sets of events to choose trait unlocks for is great, but having all five of the starting world bosses may be too restrictive because of their strict schedules.

Third, I feel the costs for traits needs to be adjusted downward in all respects. Adept traits should certainly not cost 50 silver – heck I won’t even pay that for a rare item. 1 silver is more fair in my mind.

Fourth, and I know my own list is guilty of this, I think traits should require less group content, not more. Traits are personal, one should not need to rely on a group to get them. I suggested champ mobs as a quick hotfix for the immediate problem, but once you hit the mid-range levels it’s hard to get groups together to do some of those.

If the entire system gets a revamp, I would love to see a more general “trait pool” developed and have every one of your suggested events be in that pool. Fantastic work pulling events.

Do people honestly believe tweeking the new trait system would be better then reverting to the old one? You know, the one that was actually enjoyable! Someday someone will give me the true reason this was changed.

is tomorrow’s update going to change anything about this ?

Mister zeeRo.8561:

is tomorrow’s update going to change anything about this ?

Nope.

Mister zeeRo.8561:

is tomorrow’s update going to change anything about this ?

Almost certainly not, otherwise they would have posted something about it on the website.

ANet “staying the course” in the icy waters.

Never-mind the chilling effect, presumably that’s what helps with player retention according to the DEV’s; I must be defective because it only makes me steer clear.