Guild Wars 2

Labjax.2465:

Tachenon.5270:

Please: just put it back the way it was.

“Alright fine, since you begged enough we’ll revert an entire game system months later.”

- Said no game company ever

I dislike the system probably as much as you do, Tach, but let’s try to be realistic here: They’re willing to revise the system and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re working on it here and there as we speak, but they’re not going to simply revert it.

Oh, I suspect you’re right.

But maybe, just maybe, if we ask 19 times, magic might happen.

Labjax.2465:

Tachenon.5270:

Please: just put it back the way it was.

“Alright fine, since you begged enough we’ll revert an entire game system months later.”

- Said no game company ever

I dislike the system probably as much as you do, Tach, but let’s try to be realistic here: They’re willing to revise the system and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re working on it here and there as we speak, but they’re not going to simply revert it.

Actually there’s no way this will work.
Reverting it back: Less gold, people wouldn’t play the way they should, people who already have bought or unlocked traits would be mad, probably.
Leaving it like it is: An average character made after the April patch might have 15 traits, there’s no way these characters will be able to enjoy dungeons, pvp, wvw. A lot of the events for traits are bugged so there’s no other option than to buy them with gold which is kind of insulting.
Making a pool of events for one trait: Would be a good idea since people leveling more than one alt might chose map completion the first time around but then decide to give wvw a go – but the problem: since the events are group events less people doing a certain event would be around, so people would have to solo it anyway.
Making a system with all soloable trait events: takes a lot of time and a lot of the stuff above would apply to it as well..

Reverting this mess right after launch would’ve been the best move – a lot of us said how it would end right at the start.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This thread is very large and has a lot of great feedback and input within it. But because it’s so long, some participants may have missed a very informative post by Game Design Lead Jon Peters.

To help you help us with a topic that the devs feel is very valuable, I’ll repeat Jon’s post:

At the end of the day this system has helped spread out the teaching of the system and the feeling of accomplishment through acquisition, but it has done it in ways that are sometimes counterproductive and still not nearly visible enough to impact as many players as it could.

Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.

TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

~~~~~

Jon also wrote later than he would need to be a bit less active on the forums but he explained that this meant he was actively working on making the game better.

So as Jon asked, please keep your feedback coming with our thanks for your efforts to also make the game better! Please note that as Jon points out, changing systems or making adjustments takes time and careful review, but you are being heard and your input is valuable to us.

Gaile, with all do respect (and I do appreciate that you are just a middle-person in these communications) all the feedback required is already contained in this thread. People have simply been repeating themselves for a couple of months now, and trying to get changes made. All the data that is needed is already possessed by Jon as well: he has a list of the Traits and the requirements that each one needs. He simply has to read his spreadsheet and see if they are level appropriate, and if the task is disproportionate to what is being gained. It really is no more than a weekend’s work, at most, of cross referencing to spot those.

How he fixes them is another matter, but spotting them doesn’t take months and months and a continual influx of repetitive community feedback. Frankly, we’re a week and a bit away from hitting the 6 month mark on this thread, and reiterating that more feedback is needed is staggeringly disingenuous.

I think somewhere along the line, someone in upper management over there forgot that we’re the customers that keep your lights on. Rather, we’re treated with, imho, a dishearteningly large amount of disrespect. This is in regards to communication, or lack thereof, how we as customers are perceived, and consequently the attitude directed our way. To keep on track with this thread and not over-generalize, I feel that there has been almost half a year’s effort to stall and entertain this community when we’ve put in so much communal effort to 1) get basic acknowledgement and 2) institute the changes needed for a broken system.

Gaile, again, you are a Community liaison and I appreciate that you have been making efforts. I also understand you have to maintain neutrality, and can only report and relay so much. My comments aren’t about you, it’s about how this Trait thread has been, and continues to be, mismanaged.

As we are approaching the 6 month mark and it appears that little to nothing is being done, I simply have to assume that nothing meaningful will be done. Certainly nothing on the scale of what needs to be done to fix a system that was perfectly fine in its originality. My hands are in the air at this point. In the words of Donald Trump, “ANET, you’re fired!”.

Illysharia.7286:

Gaile, with all do respect (and I do appreciate that you are just a middle-person in these communications) all the feedback required is already contained in this thread. People have simply been repeating themselves for a couple of months now, and trying to get changes made. All the data that is needed is already possessed by Jon as well: he has a list of the Traits and the requirements that each one needs. He simply has to read his spreadsheet and see if they are level appropriate, and if the task is disproportionate to what is being gained. It really is no more than a weekend’s work, at most, of cross referencing to spot those.

How he fixes them is another matter, but spotting them doesn’t take months and months and a continual influx of repetitive community feedback. Frankly, we’re a week and a bit away from hitting the 6 month mark on this thread, and reiterating that more feedback is needed is staggeringly disingenuous.

I think somewhere along the line, someone in upper management over there forgot that we’re the customers that keep your lights on. Rather, we’re treated with, imho, a dishearteningly large amount of disrespect. This is in regards to communication, or lack thereof, how we as customers are perceived, and consequently the attitude directed our way. To keep on track with this thread and not over-generalize, I feel that there has been almost half a year’s effort to stall and entertain this community when we’ve put in so much communal effort to 1) get basic acknowledgement and 2) institute the changes needed for a broken system.

Gaile, again, you are a Community liaison and I appreciate that you have been making efforts. I also understand you have to maintain neutrality, and can only report and relay so much. My comments aren’t about you, it’s about how this Trait thread has been, and continues to be, mismanaged.

As we are approaching the 6 month mark and it appears that little to nothing is being done, I simply have to assume that nothing meaningful will be done. Certainly nothing on the scale of what needs to be done to fix a system that was perfectly fine in its originality. My hands are in the air at this point. In the words of Donald Trump, “ANET, you’re fired!”.

I think the point of her doing that was to make sure those who haven’t been following the thread closely know that there is some dev interaction/acknowledgement on the subject.

I know what you mean though. It doesn’t look quite how we’d like.

Yeah Gaile, while I REALLY appreciate you coming in here, and also that you’re sort of stuck in the middle, we didn’t miss that post. In fact many of us found it borderline offensive.

It basically summarises as:

“Hi all, we’re pretty much going to ignore your major complaints but we’re going to maybe do something about the most superficial problems with the system. Actually on the subject of ignoring you, we’ve been doing that for forty pages, so if you could repeat which superficial changes you’ve mentioned because we can’t be bothered to go back and read them for ourselves.”

Again, I know you’re in the middle here, but this is six months with a core system ruined. People have left, gems haven’t been bought, people have stopped making recommendations to friends.

This isn’t a controversial topic. Basically everyone who has tried the system either dislikes it a bit, or a lot. Please just get these things as account unlocks and finally put this whole affair out of its misery.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

OK, I’ll play along. Again. (But to be honest, its getting a bit tedious. And that is about as kindly as I can put it.)

For Veterans with multiple Alts and who have already unlocked the traits (barring any GM ones still locked):
***All traits need to be unlocked on the account. Full stop. Do not pass Go. making vets run around the world and do events to unlock traits on alts is annoying at best.

For ALL Players:

Trait cost is abhorrent: Remove skill points as part of the cost completely and bring the prices down to half of their total cost as it is. it will still be a gold sink, but won’t be a character limiting one for new (mostly casual) players.

Trait Tasks: Remove all WvW/EoTM based requirements for obtaining Traits. Make all Traits that require more than 2 people change to events that at most require only 2 people. Anything that requires more than that is broken. Traits are things that are essential for CHARACTER development and should be earned by an individual’s effort and skill. it should never require a group to get the trait for one person. Make sure that Trait tasks are in LEVEL APPROPRIATE areas. Adept in 30-40, Master in 50-60, and GM in 70-80.

+1
Agreed on all points. Doing this would be palatable for a lot more players than the current system.

Okay. I’ll bite.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Improve-Trait-unlocking-Simple-guidelines/first#post4241025

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/24#post4123028

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/43#post4359334

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/39#post4322498

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/New-trait-system-it-s-why-I-quit-WoW/first#post4119326

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/49#post4422363

Edit: Illysharia, that was a brilliant summary of how I think a lot of us are feeling. Just beautifully stated, really.

The problems, which I suspect alot of people sympathize with, are twofold.

First, compared to the original leveling system, it is a much more involved and lengthy process. If the system were in the game from the start, I suspect no one would have had an issue with it.

Second – and the BIG one for me – is about what we thought horizontal progression meant when Jon made the original comment in his blog. I know, I for one thought he was referring to new ways to advance my character at max level – in other words, they would be introducing new traits and utility skills on a regular enough schedule to keep us engaged as we sought out the events that unlock them (kind of like skill unlocks from GW1).

The second concept had me very excited (and I wasnt the only one – the forums lit up with alot of positive comments after that blog post) – thinking this would be part of the new end game in GW2.

Gaile’s comment makes it sound like the idea all along was that horizontal progression applied to those leveling – rather than at end game. That bothers me A LOT.

This is a perfect example of when clearer communication is desperately needed – and simple clarification could make things better. What is the plan regarding adding new traits/utilities on a regular basis (horizontal progression as part of end game)? Has that idea been scrapped or is it just not ready for prime time yet?

Having raised an Alt to 80 under this system, my top 3 complaints:

1. I want a trait that unlocks at the end of a chain of group events. I show up. The chain is not happening, and no one is around anyhow. Now what? For example: Defeat Rhendak the Crazed.

2. I level up to where a new tier of traits becomes available. I look at the unlock for a trait I’ve been looking forward too, and discover the unlock content is at an even higher level. Now I wait some more. For example: Capture the Infinity Coil.

3. A trait sounds interesting and I want to give it a try. Then I discover it requires Defeat Rhendak the Crazed (see point 1). I give up on the experiment. I still don’t have this trait!

Labjax.2465:

I think the point of her doing that was to make sure those who haven’t been following the thread closely know that there is some dev interaction/acknowledgement on the subject.

What Illysharia so eloquently pointed out was that Game Design Lead Jon Peters already possesses:

…a list of the Traits and the requirements that each one needs. He simply has to read his spreadsheet and see if they are level appropriate, and if the task is disproportionate to what is being gained. It really is no more than a weekend’s work, at most, of cross referencing to spot those.

Addressing this glaring issue of disproportionality would go a fair to middling distance in addressing a big problem with the April 2014 Trait Changes.

It really smacks of getting the run around when the people who devised the system task the users for information that they could simply look up in a database table.

If the Trait line is available for the character based on the level gate, the associated task to unlock it should NOT EXCEED that level range. (ie. level 30 player required to go to level 50+ map)

Is this really that difficult to understand, ANet?

But, don’t stop there!

Ask the reasonable question:

What things should be avoided as being used as unlock tasks?

For the most part people have been in agreement in this thread about:

• Befriending Ogre Camp
• Priest of Balthazar
• Champion Overgrown Grub
• Dungeon Story Completions
• Random/Rare/Broken Events

Basically, if it “takes a village” to unlock a Trait, it needs to be changed.

Blaeys.3102:

The problems, which I suspect alot of people sympathize with, are twofold.

First, compared to the original leveling system, it is a much more involved and lengthy process. If the system were in the game from the start, I suspect no one would have had an issue with it.

Second – and the BIG one for me – is about what we thought horizontal progression meant when Jon made the original comment in his blog. I know, I for one thought he was referring to new ways to advance my character at max level – in other words, they would be introducing new traits and utility skills on a regular enough schedule to keep us engaged as we sought out the events that unlock them.

The second concept had me very excited (and I wasnt the only one – the forums lit up with alot of positive comments after that blog post) – thinking this would be part of the new end game in GW2.

Gaile’s comment makes it sound like the idea all along was that horizontal progression applied to those leveling – rather than at end game. That bothers me A LOT.

This is a perfect example of when clearer communication is desperately needed – and simple clarification could make things better. What is the plan regarding adding new traits/utilities on a regular basis (horizontal progression as part of end game)? Has that idea been scrapped or is it just not ready for prime time yet?

well the fact is, its not horizontal progression, its actually level locked progression. You each trait unlocks in some level locked zone. Its horizontal progression when you are level 80 perhaps

And yes the discussion about horizontal progression was primarilly about NEW traits and skills added to the game, and ALTERNATE methods aside from the 25 skillpoint costs that new skills at the time were costing.
Taking your basic traits out and having no base options totally changes the concept of the system.

Also homegenizing the traits based on their trait number was pretty lame. They should have made the challenges at least the type of things people want to try to beat with each charachter type rather than something polarizing like map completion

If this current system MUST stay…

Adept traits should be easy to get, all should be solo content, and an average player should be able to unlock all or nearly all of them during their level-up process. Each trait should have a good sized pool of possible triggers to earn the trait, so that a person doesn’t have to be at a specific place to earn it.

Master traits should take slightly more effort, but not be difficult. An average player should be able to most of these traits during the level-up process. Each trait should have a small pool of triggers, and should be easily done solo or by small ad-hoc groups in the world.

Grandmaster traits are the only ones that should need to be “hunted” for (ie GW1 elites). Small to mid sized groups should be possible to complete all of them.

As PookieDaWombat.6209 said above, the cost to buy an unlock is way too high, both in skill point and coin costs.

Traits should be able to be unlocked in both areas of the game that this system applies to. There needs to be both a PvE and a WvW option for each trait; or at least a way to purchase traits simply by playing WvW.

Any trigger tied to a random, not-often-recurring event (Orr temples, some champ events) should be changed, or the event put on a designated timer so that a player will know when it’ll be up.

All events tied to a trait need to be extensively audited and tested to fix any possible stalls (Dredge Commissar, Branded Devourer Queen, Foulbear).

Sarisa.4731:

If this current system MUST stay…

Adept traits should be easy to get, all should be solo content, and an average player should be able to unlock all or nearly all of them during their level-up process. Each trait should have a good sized pool of possible triggers to earn the trait, so that a person doesn’t have to be at a specific place to earn it.

Master traits should take slightly more effort, but not be difficult. An average player should be able to most of these traits during the level-up process. Each trait should have a small pool of triggers, and should be easily done solo or by small ad-hoc groups in the world.

Grandmaster traits are the only ones that should need to be “hunted” for (ie GW1 elites). Small to mid sized groups should be possible to complete all of them.

As PookieDaWombat.6209 said above, the cost to buy an unlock is way too high, both in skill point and coin costs.

Traits should be able to be unlocked in both areas of the game that this system applies to. There needs to be both a PvE and a WvW option for each trait; or at least a way to purchase traits simply by playing WvW.

Any trigger tied to a random, not-often-recurring event (Orr temples, some champ events) should be changed, or the event put on a designated timer so that a player will know when it’ll be up.

All events tied to a trait need to be extensively audited and tested to fix any possible stalls (Dredge Commissar, Branded Devourer Queen, Foulbear).

Awesome commentary and suggestion!

If we have to hold our collective noses and abide having a Trait Unlock System, the post above succinctly explains how to make it engaging, fluid and more fun and not the disjointed, obstacle-ridden, speed bumped enterprise that it is currently.

I mean, the real problem is that the system is intended to get users to slowly learn traits and the developers apparently think that’s how the game is actually working. But speaking from experience, what actually happens is that users look up the traits that they want, they buy them or unlock them (and only them), and they never ever experiment, because nobody is willing/able to stop and unlock or purchase traits in the middle of a dungeon or an event. I have three characters created post patch. I don’t even know what most of the traits do because there’s just no point.

I sympathize, because undoing this or making mass changes is probably a logistical nightmare. But PLEASE at least acknowledge and let us know you hear what we’re saying. Which is that whatever you think is happening in terms of playability just isn’t. Everyone looks up meta builds or asks what traits to use. Or worse, they are unaware of what to do and just take whatever they happen to get without any critical examination whatsoever.

This doesn’t lead to exploring your traits, it leads to never ever exploring your traits. On many occasions, I’ve actually just left the slot blank because I didn’t have enough traits unlocked in a line. That is absolutely stupid.

Oh, and as mentioned, even when you want to unlock one, sometimes it’s just broken. I put in a report saying that branded devourer queen is broken a week or two ago.

Keysha.2815:

Gaile, the easiest (from the player view) way to fix this would be to make it so if you have already got characters with traits unlocked, make them, at the appropriate level, be account unlocks. Then, the new players get introduced properly, and the existing players get the traits the way they are used to. Is this not feasable?

If not, then make either an npc where you can buy scrolls of knowledge (for skill unlocking) for a small amount of karma, or give us enough skill points, early enough, to unlock the utilities and skills as we want them.

Yea, the most offending part is locking the core traits, the master and grandmaster traits are cool but honestly less important to a rounded build then the bottom two tiers.
Making everyone “grind” (imho it is a grind because I’m locked into paying or playing specific events just to unlock what was never locked before) just because a few people are not using their traits properly is ridiculous. I love the idea of new traits being unlock-able though events, this would make trait hunting fun especially for completionists but ALL the traits being lock especially the old ones is very very frustrating, how are players supposed to learn about traits if they can’t even use them?
I would say lock just the master and grandmaster ones, this would let players work on their builds and get some satisfaction from hunting down those awesome leets they need.

Why are specifi traits linked to specific unlocks? it’s not like there’s lore rasons or anything. Just give me a list of activities that will allow me to unlock a trait of my choosing rather than a specific trait. It gives flexibility in deciding on builds and eliminates the problems of traits that are too hard to obtain and retains some feeling of progression.

Also the traits and related stat boosts come way too slowly and way too late, there’s really no point in WvWing on characters until you reach level 80, you just get masacred. Feel free to read some of the pre WvW tournament threads where WvW guilds were telling people below level 80 and without at least full exotic gear not to waste space in WvW when there’s queues.

FQDN.2508:

Also the traits and related stat boosts come way too slowly and way too late, there’s really no point in WvWing on characters until you reach level 80, you just get masacred. Feel free to read some of the pre WvW tournament threads where WvW guilds were telling people below level 80 and without at least full exotic gear not to waste space in WvW when there’s queues.

I’m not disagreeing, but EotM has effectively been the pressure valve for players who are leveling under this kitten Trait System. Just plop into EotM and rinse/repeat the train ride until level 80. My new engineer (rolled after the NPE released) is level 56 now from doing EOTM and the Personal Story.

So, it goes from bad to worse, in my opinion all because of the April Trait Changes, it’s just not enjoyable to clear maps on a character that is mostly Trait-less.

Sure, I’d prefer to clear maps as I level, but the leveling progression has taken some big hits in granularity, there’s some big peaks and valleys in the attribute gains that can really wear thin at some levels when clearing maps. What was once a smooth and natural seeming progression…is now irregular and stuttering.

April 2014 Trait Changes + September 2014 NPE Attribute Gating = perfect storm of undesirable progression experience.

Far better to ride the EotM Train, get to 80 and then proceed to unlock Traits and clear Maps while wearing full Exotic Gear.

After all, any port in a storm.

Tachenon.5270:

It’s like you’re asking us to offer suggestions about place settings and silverware while there’s a dead skunk in the middle of the dinner table.

What’s the most offensive trait unlock location? I find the trait system revamp in its entirety to be offensive. I don’t think it makes the game better in any way, shape, or form. I think it made the game worse. I think it takes all the fun out of trying different builds, which makes it something we have to get through to get to the ‘fun stuff’. I don’t think any tweaking or adjusting will help.

Please: just put it back the way it was.

LOL.

I totally agree. If Anet doesn’t revert the trait system it doesn’t really matter to me what superficial stuff they do since I’ll never create another new character in this game.

Hi Gaile, The repost that you did of Jon says people were not learning about the traits. What does locking them away have to do with this? I go to certain part of map to unlock them, just to see what it does? I don’t understand? I don’t have it, so i can’t experiment, if i want it, so either do as im told by anet or pay gold/skill point to open it to see what it does? And this goes for every other slot i have after April patch?

**Another thing, you are asking us what events are broken that doesn’t let us obtain a particular trait. May i ask what your QA/testers did before this change got implemented? Maybe us players are the testers?

Labjax.2465:

Tachenon.5270:

Please: just put it back the way it was.

“Alright fine, since you begged enough we’ll revert an entire game system months later.”

- Said no game company ever

Maybe that’s the reason so many MMOs fail or go into life support mode after the first couple of years. So the devs should stop being stubborn and leave the egos at the door. Then admit they were wrong and start giving the players what they want and not what the devs want us to want.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Labjax.2465:

I think the point of her doing that was to make sure those who haven’t been following the thread closely know that there is some dev interaction/acknowledgement on the subject.

Yes!

Blaeys.3102:

Gaile’s comment makes it sound like the idea all along was that horizontal progression applied to those leveling – rather than at end game. That bothers me A LOT.

Perhaps you mean Jon’s comments? For I said nothing whatsoever about progression, horizontal or otherwise. Just want to make sure you didn’t read something into my words that reference leveling, progression, or anything of that sort.

~~~

Anyway, thanks for the input added today. And I mean that, especially because I recognize some of you are irritated and would like to post like that one guy who shouted!

The reason I re-posted Jon’s comments involves some level of confession: I saw this huge thread in the forums, kept reading across many sub-forums and posts that ArenaNet was being asked to provide some sort of response, wanted to get you some info (although I knew it wouldn’t be much at this point), sent an e-mail to some devs to ask about how we could respond, then met up with Jon who pointed out that he’d put up a pretty comprehensive post … that I had completely missed.

If I missed it, maybe someone late to the thread missed it, so hence the repeat or re-post. Not to say “share your ideas” if you already have! Not to give a placating “there there” or meaningless non-update. But because I honestly felt that some forum member may have missed the update and input request from the dev team and they may want to provide new feedback.

So you guys who posted last month or two weeks ago or when the thread started? You’re good. Got it, thank you, and really, thank you again if you patiently re-posted today. To you folks who are saying “You need to update that thread,” please note that right now, the only update we have available in the one that was offered – in detail and at length – when Jon last posted. He or another team member will update when they have more info, but do know this thread was and continues to be useful.

I actually have little to no issue with the new trait system (im actually a fan) – I just noted that part of the malaise is because it is such a drastic change from what most players experienced during their leveling. If it had been in from the beginning, there would be little issue.

To my confusion regarding horizontal progression and traits, I probably did get confused about who said what and didnt mean it to sound argumentative or contrary. Im sorry if it did.

I was just pointing out that what Jon said in the blog post last year – which was reinforced in the horizontal progression CDI – did not seem to be about the current system at all – but rather about the unlocking of new traits post max level through a system that would serve as the main way our characters would develop/grow indefinitely in the game.

Little to nothing has been said about that system since then and, when I read your post, it sounded like the reason was that the changes to the leveling traits is what he was referring to all along. Going back and reading his original comments, that seems very unlikely (but, if true, very disappointing).

Again, I have no problem with the new trait system. I actually like it. My guild has weekly events where we get together to help unlock traits for new players and players with lower level alts and they are alot of fun.

ADDENDUM/Apology: It wasnt a blog by Jon, but rather by Colin Johanson that started the trait discussion/CDI as it relates to horizontal progressions (and caused my confusion). The specific paragraphs, from the July 2013 blog, are copy/pasted below:

New Skill and Traits
We’ll begin regularly adding new skills and traits to the game for each profession to expand your characters and builds! You will be able to earn these new traits and skills by unlocking them. To go along with this, we’ll expand the content and options to earn skill points to help encourage players to experience different challenges and content throughout the world. These skills and traits will be designed to be balanced with the existing skills/traits we currently have in the game, and will simply compliment and expand the range of abilities and tactics available to each profession. Both WvW and PvE players can acquire skills and traits, and additional means of earning skill points will be addressed for both core content areas.

The regular addition of skills and traits that you can earn as you play provides us an extremely stable, easily expandable reward system that fits neatly into the pillars of progression and advancement that Guild Wars 2 are all about. Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.

As someone who has only been playing Guild Wars 2 since May I don’t know how things used to be, but as they are, the system is very confusing.

First, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when/how the traits are unlocked. I notice that they become available at level 30, but more often than not I have not even unlocked a single one by then. I’ll browse through them (now that I know where to find them) to see if there are any that I want, but the ones in which I’m interested are often unlockable by completing areas that are about 10 levels above my character’s. The ones that are actually accessible are often in areas that are on the opposite side of the world from where my race/story line has taken me. When I see this the progress I’ve made on my story seems kind of pointless.

During my first encounter with the trait system I purchased a master trait from a vendor. The system happily let me do that, and I was even able to learn it right away. Imagine my surprise, however, upon discovering that the game wouldn’t actually let me use it. After spending 20 minutes poking around on the wiki I finally learned that the trait wouldn’t unlock until level 60. There was no obvious in-game indication that this was the case. Once I poked around on the trait panel I accidentally discovered that clicking on the little telescopes by the traits would point me to the place I needed to go to unlock them. If the goal of this system was to simplify trait acquisition for new players, I’d say this aspect of the system is a big failure.

The first Guild Wars, which I played extensively back in the day, was much more intuitive. I bought most of my skills from trainers for a nominal cost as I went, and if I wanted the elites I knew I had to capture them from bosses. I never experienced the frustration of seeing a pop-up congratulating me on gaining access to a new feature only to discover that I hadn’t actually unlocked it yet and would not likely do so for some time.

Gaile Gray.6029:

To you folks who are saying “You need to update that thread,” please note that right now, the only update we have available in the one that was offered – in detail and at length – when Jon last posted. He or another team member will update when they have more info, but do know this thread was and continues to be useful.

Gaile, not too long ago there was a very robust thread that Mike started, then was shortly thereafter championed by Chris. I am sure you are aware of it, so I won’t belabor any details or reiterate the finer points that Chris acknowledged regarding the need for communication improvements. It has been a rough year for that, and that thread portrayed an earnest desire on the part of the Dev’s to undo the wrongs of the past and move forward.

However, regarding this Trait issue, and this thread, there has been a half year communications break-down. Not on the community’s behalf, mind you, but from the people buzzing around behind and around you in your office. I can appreciate that Jon feels his post was all he needs to say on this subject, but the smallest fraction of attention paid would clearly illustrate that it is grossly insufficient.

I thought Chris’ efforts would have started to bear fruit. They haven’t in this thread. A statement isn’t a discussion, and simply having Jon fall back on that statement when he was pressed for a comment is clearly indicative that the communication problem is fully alive and kicking, and continues to be fostered by the people who promised to improve the situation.

It is so frustrating. I’ve honestly never encountered a Dev group in all my years of gaming that has been so insular.

The problems in this thread, as I see it:

1. Traits as they are are too difficult in varying ways for the average player.
2. There is not enough dev interaction in this thread.

1A. So, let me say this: ANY trait unlock that takes more than one person to do should be fixed. Too many players play solo to be able to be comfortable doing these unlocks when they have to wait around or gather groups to do them. If one person can do them, then there would be no complaints there.

1B. ANY trait unlock that requires an event should be fixed, as the events or event chains are all to often borked. Thus stopping progress.

1C. ANY trait that requires a player to go into a situation where there is PvP should be fixed. They should all be PvE, as most that are going after them are newer players, and are not able to handle any form of PvP (including the Obsidian Sanctum).

2A. The members in the forum feel ignored, left out, and dismissed when long threads like this get such minimal dev interaction. This thread, for example, was STARTED by a dev. Then something like 43 pages later, a dev comes in and says what sounds like, to us, “thanks for the input, we can’t fix it now, we will in the future, until then can you list what you already listed so I don’t have to read it all, for temp fixes until we get around to really doing something else?”

2B. While many of us are in these threads, we do not need you (collective you) to come in with specifics on what you are doing, or going to do. We do not need you to give us attaboys or anything. We simply need periodic acknowledgement that you are, in fact, in the threads and paying attention. Periodic comments that say simply “noted to this point, we are reading and discussing internally. Thanks and keep it up.” would be enough. Not a post, then 44 pages of nothing, then a post, then 15 pages of nothing, and so on. It is called interaction. And we, as your player base, are simply asking that you, as the developer base, let us know we are being heard. There are MANY threads in this forum of over 20 pages where no devs are heard. That needs to stop. Or you may as well close the forum because we are just feeding each other’s rage, and you (the collective you) are, quite frankly, not helping.

Please, for the love of the pale tree make trait unlocks account wide.

Waiting!
Waiting, waiting!
Waiting, waiting, waiting!
Waiting, waiting, waiting! Waiting!

Is Kol up? Is Frostmaw up? Will CoE ever be contested? When was Grenth last up? Wizard up at Arah defence?

When can I stop waiting for access to trait unlocks and start actually unlocking them?

Tachenon.5270:

It’s like you’re asking us to offer suggestions about place settings and silverware while there’s a dead skunk in the middle of the dinner table.

What’s the most offensive trait unlock location? I find the trait system revamp in its entirety to be offensive. I don’t think it makes the game better in any way, shape, or form. I think it made the game worse. I think it takes all the fun out of trying different builds, which makes it something we have to get through to get to the ‘fun stuff’. I don’t think any tweaking or adjusting will help.

Please: just put it back the way it was.

I’m on the same page with him. I extremely hated this system. I know you guys will make it so that the majority of the players will accept this change in future, but I will stand on where I am. I will never accept this unlock system. You first give us all the traits, and we learn the function of each. Now you tell new people to go fetch them or buy them, and make them realize some of them aren’t even worth to unlock.
For new players, the easiest way to unlock traits is to ask vet players what traits are worthwhile. Basically, they don’t even need to learn now. It is just a brainless time-consuming activity.

In a simpler concept, it is like:

A brand product’s price increases (trait vs. trait post patch), so some customers will no longer purchase that brand. I am one of those customers.

I don’t care whatever reasons are behind this change. What was given shouldn’t be taken away.

Tken.1986:

I don’t care whatever reasons are behind this change. What was given shouldn’t be taken away.

I’m afraid I can’t agree with that, universally and without any qualification.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Maybe that’s the reason so many MMOs fail or go into life support mode after the first couple of years. So the devs should stop being stubborn and leave the egos at the door. Then admit they were wrong and start giving the players what they want and not what the devs want us to want.

If you really want to go there, then no. That’s not why MMOs fail. Reverting a major change months later is more likely to be a death knell than the other way around.

The main reason it’s so bad is because it sets a precedent that says, “We’re unable to stand against player criticism. If you criticize enough over time, then eventually we’ll cave.” It’s roughly equivalent to a parent refusing a cookie to a child and then relenting after the child whines for an hour straight; it sends the message that the kid just has to whine enough and he will get what he wants.

I’m not saying we’re all whining children, mind you – many of us are far from that. But the point is, the last thing any company needs is for consumers to think that they will always cave under pressure. Then it becomes a game of who can scream the loudest and longest.

Reverting changes shortly after they have happened is a different story and sometimes it’s ok because the company can save face at that point by saying that they are adjusting to what players want. But even then, usually what happens is that the company makes some kind of adjustment to the changes to make them more palatable.

Bottom line is, the longer a company waits, the more harm it’s going to do to revert something major. And they have long passed the threshold of “significant harm to their reputation if they were to revert.”

Labjax.2465:

The main reason it’s so bad is because it sets a precedent that says, “We’re unable to stand against player criticism. If you criticize enough over time, then eventually we’ll cave.” It’s roughly equivalent to a parent refusing a cookie to a child and then relenting after the child whines for an hour straight; it sends the message that the kid just has to whine enough and he will get what he wants.

I’m not saying we’re all whining children, mind you – many of us are far from that. But the point is, the last thing any company needs is for consumers to think that they will always cave under pressure. Then it becomes a game of who can scream the loudest and longest.

Reverting changes shortly after they have happened is a different story and sometimes it’s ok because the company can save face at that point by saying that they are adjusting to what players want. But even then, usually what happens is that the company makes some kind of adjustment to the changes to make them more palatable.

Bottom line is, the longer a company waits, the more harm it’s going to do to revert something major. And they have long passed the threshold of “significant harm to their reputation if they were to revert.”

Yes, that’s the measure of it.

That’s why I really wished ANet would stop making these type of “painted into a corner decisions” with the game.

There’s a propensity on the part of the Devs to rip out all the original wiring and reinvent stuff…in new and “interesting” ways. The problem is that the game starts becoming a radically different game then the one originally purchased.

Yes, yes…changing game experience, yada, yada. But there is a point of departure in what can be considered as reasonable.

I have been upset with ANet since two months after release with the Ascended Tier debacle.

So far, my grudge list of changes inflicted upon the game looks like this:

• Ascended Tier

• WvW Development/EotM

• Trait Unlock System

• NPE/Level Lock

It’s really reaching the tipping point for me, and I love the game!

But these changes are mile markers for departure points where the game, that many of us originally wanted, went off the tracks.

Communication is definitely the Achilles Heel for ANet. They just can’t understand the value of face time with the community other than what’s scripted in the “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” marketing-speak primer.

Yes, Gaile Gray is a breath of fresh air and a wonderful advocate, but she isn’t a Dev and is not setting policy.

There’s a stubborn element refusing to grasp the concept that the continual implementation of radical changes on the game’s community is not a good thing.

The whole Trait Change of April has been laid at the feet of the community as something “we asked for”… But for anyone that actually paid attention and is not tone-deaf; it’s rather obvious that the community was expressing a desire to have NEW TRAITS (Elite-like) added to the game that could be unlocked via exceptional tasks.

Somehow, that idea got mutated into lock every existing Trait plus the New Traits behind level locks, exorbitant costs and content gating. /boggle

I don’t think my opinion is completely unique, I believe it resonates with many in the community.

Labjax.2465:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Maybe that’s the reason so many MMOs fail or go into life support mode after the first couple of years. So the devs should stop being stubborn and leave the egos at the door. Then admit they were wrong and start giving the players what they want and not what the devs want us to want.

If you really want to go there, then no. That’s not why MMOs fail. Reverting a major change months later is more likely to be a death knell than the other way around.

The main reason it’s so bad is because it sets a precedent that says, “We’re unable to stand against player criticism. If you criticize enough over time, then eventually we’ll cave.” It’s roughly equivalent to a parent refusing a cookie to a child and then relenting after the child whines for an hour straight; it sends the message that the kid just has to whine enough and he will get what he wants.

I’m not saying we’re all whining children, mind you – many of us are far from that. But the point is, the last thing any company needs is for consumers to think that they will always cave under pressure. Then it becomes a game of who can scream the loudest and longest.

Reverting changes shortly after they have happened is a different story and sometimes it’s ok because the company can save face at that point by saying that they are adjusting to what players want. But even then, usually what happens is that the company makes some kind of adjustment to the changes to make them more palatable.

Bottom line is, the longer a company waits, the more harm it’s going to do to revert something major. And they have long passed the threshold of “significant harm to their reputation if they were to revert.”

The problem is the bad change in all of those situations you mentioned. Yes the longer it goes on the worse it gets but I have never seen a company revert a change and fix something later. With out anyone ever actually doing that there is no way of knowing how people will really react. Yes of course people will talk crap about that bad change for years but they would do that anyways. Because it was a bad change. In my opinion its better to suck it up and later is better than never. I think the real reason we do not see changes like roll backs is because some people are stubborn. Especially in the corporate sector. Many people would rather go down with the ship rather than admit they were wrong. It doesn’t make sense but that is what I have seen in my life experiences. It is also backed up by watching all the crap in the news where CEOs run companies in to the ground and walk away with millions. To them they never made any mistakes. They made millions. It doesn’t matter that the company failed.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

The problem is the bad change in all of those situations you mentioned. Yes the longer it goes on the worse it gets but I have never seen a company revert a change and fix something later. With out anyone ever actually doing that there is no way of knowing how people will really react. Yes of course people will talk crap about that bad change for years but they would do that anyways. Because it was a bad change. In my opinion its better to suck it up and later is better than never. I think the real reason we do not see changes like roll backs is because some people are stubborn. Especially in the corporate sector. Many people would rather go down with the ship rather than admit they were wrong. It doesn’t make sense but that is what I have seen in my life experiences. It is also backed up by watching all the crap in the news where CEOs run companies in to the ground and walk away with millions. To them they never made any mistakes. They made millions. It doesn’t matter that the company failed.

I don’t think it needs demonstration to see what the horrible consequences would be. It’s easy to say, “They should just try it and see what happens” when you’re not the one whose job it is to keep a company afloat.

As someone who has 7 level 80s and has yet to complete the personal story, I despise personal story trait unlocks as much as map completion unlocks. Before the trait revamp nothing was locked behind PS completion, and I liked that here was one game where I really was free to spend my time as I pleased.

The major design issue with PS unlocks is that every step before that step must be completed to get to that step (if you decide to go for a trait but have yet to start the PS); no other kind of unlock has such tedious requirements given the linear nature of story quests.

Sleepwalker.1398:

Hi Gaile, The repost that you did of Jon says people were not learning about the traits. What does locking them away have to do with this? I go to certain part of map to unlock them, just to see what it does? I don’t understand? I don’t have it, so i can’t experiment, if i want it, so either do as im told by anet or pay gold/skill point to open it to see what it does? And this goes for every other slot i have after April patch?

**Another thing, you are asking us what events are broken that doesn’t let us obtain a particular trait. May i ask what your QA/testers did before this change got implemented? Maybe us players are the testers?

Actually, I think you’ve accidentally conflated the two different objectives:

1. Give people more time to be comfortable with the game before introducing traits, so push traits back to levels 30, 60, and 80.

2. Reward players for pushing their exploration boundaries, so make individual traits unlock through remote/obscure/unusual content.

The end problem is exactly as you pointed out. You can’t actually learn about systems you can’t use, and often you can’t get to the system without significant focused exploration.

Sol Solus.3167:

As someone who has 7 level 80s and has yet to complete the personal story, I despise personal story trait unlocks as much as map completion unlocks. Before the trait revamp nothing was locked behind PS completion, and I liked that here was one game where I really was free to spend my time as I pleased.

The major design issue with PS unlocks is that every step before that step must be completed to get to that step (if you decide to go for a trait but have yet to start the PS); no other kind of unlock has such tedious requirements given the linear nature of story quests.

yup, having a level 80 trait unlock means essentially you must do the whole personal story.And come on, that fight is the most horrible fight ever, why would they want to subject any player to the final story mode

Gaile Gray.6029:

Labjax.2465:

I think the point of her doing that was to make sure those who haven’t been following the thread closely know that there is some dev interaction/acknowledgement on the subject.

Yes!

Blaeys.3102:

Gaile’s comment makes it sound like the idea all along was that horizontal progression applied to those leveling – rather than at end game. That bothers me A LOT.

Perhaps you mean Jon’s comments? For I said nothing whatsoever about progression, horizontal or otherwise. Just want to make sure you didn’t read something into my words that reference leveling, progression, or anything of that sort.

~~~

Anyway, thanks for the input added today. And I mean that, especially because I recognize some of you are irritated and would like to post like that one guy who shouted!

The reason I re-posted Jon’s comments involves some level of confession: I saw this huge thread in the forums, kept reading across many sub-forums and posts that ArenaNet was being asked to provide some sort of response, wanted to get you some info (although I knew it wouldn’t be much at this point), sent an e-mail to some devs to ask about how we could respond, then met up with Jon who pointed out that he’d put up a pretty comprehensive post … that I had completely missed.

If I missed it, maybe someone late to the thread missed it, so hence the repeat or re-post. Not to say “share your ideas” if you already have! Not to give a placating “there there” or meaningless non-update. But because I honestly felt that some forum member may have missed the update and input request from the dev team and they may want to provide new feedback.

So you guys who posted last month or two weeks ago or when the thread started? You’re good. Got it, thank you, and really, thank you again if you patiently re-posted today. To you folks who are saying “You need to update that thread,” please note that right now, the only update we have available in the one that was offered – in detail and at length – when Jon last posted. He or another team member will update when they have more info, but do know this thread was and continues to be useful.

Thank you Gaile! You are amazing. Can I buy you cookies?

I feel a little bit differently about this particular thread in regards to “nothing new to report;” it might not seem like it, but even that’s an update and it would be nice to hear just that little bit, since this thread was started by the development team, not the players.

Gaile, this isn’t directed at you but…

The trait unlock system needs to go for everything except possibly grandmaster traits. All adept and master traits at the very least should be unlockable purely by gaining levels, not by being forced to go places you don’t want to go and do things you don’t want to do. In its current form, the system is hostile to new characters and therefore new players. I don’t recommend this game to people any more solely because of the trait revamp. In fact, I encourage people to stay away from it because new characters after level 30 are, simply put, garbage.

Arena Net took the awesome open exploration of Tyria and turned it into a grocery list of tasks that gate your character’s power. This is the best paid MMO for characters that existed before the patch, and by far the worst paid MMO for characters created after the patch. Revert the system. Just revert it. People are leaving because of its tedium, and I’m talking both new and old players.

Sarisa.4731:

If this current system MUST stay….

Sarisa perfectly sums up how the system SHOULD work. Traits are essential to playing the game, and should be simple AND easy to acquire at the lower levels, simple to acquire at the mid levels, and a challenge to acquire at the higher levels. However, that “challenge” should be in terms of event or achievement difficulty, not in terms of how difficult it is to find the event running or find people to complete the event.

And the unlock costs are prohibitive enough to be barriers to gameplay. Sure, a level 80 has dozens, if not hundreds of extra skill points, but a level 60 player does not.

Gaile Gray.6029:

To help you help us with a topic that the devs feel is very valuable, I’ll repeat Jon’s post:

Hey all,

I see a lot of people talking but with a thread this long the details are often muddied by a large number of similar but differing opinions. I want to address some of the more straightforward stuff.

Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm new players that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for new players to develop into longtime players. Without more longtime players it becomes hard for you and your current guilds to meet and find people to replace those who inevitably will be pulled away by real life from time to time.

Unlocking traits. We talked about this a bunch in the horizontal progression CDI and it came to our attention that many players were not learning about traits, how they worked, or understanding the options. When we talked through unlocking traits via activities it led us in the direction we have currently. Unfortunately, unlocking traits in the open world generally causes one of the #1 things we never wanted in the game which is players in conflict. You want might the Balthazar trait but someone is about to complete the chain and leave you waiting. This is bad for the game, but I think right now only occurs this dramatically for a few of the traits.
. . .

At the end of the day this system has helped spread out the teaching of the system and the feeling of accomplishment through acquisition, but it has done it in ways that are sometimes counterproductive and still not nearly visible enough to impact as many players as it could.

Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.

And this is the problem with the current CDI system in a nutshell. You ask us questions, you take in feedback, and then you shoot off in a completely random direction like a dog after a squirrel, and don’t tell us where you’re headed until you get there. If you’d have told us "well, we’re thinking of forcing you to do all sorts of events to unlock traits, we all would have said “NOOOOOOOOOO!” and then you wouldn’t have wasted all that time on a system that nobody wants.

Solving this is not a matter of picking out a few bad apples and making a few tiny tweaks, the whole kittened bundle is rotten.

You identified a good problem. Some players had a hard time adjusting to the trait system early in the game. You came to the wrong solution, push it waaaaay back in the progression so that the early levels are super boring. The better solution? Give players more explicit training in them, lead them through the process of selecting traits, explain why some traits are better than others, what each is good for.

Don’t lock traits behind events, preventing players from even trying them out without going all over the place to unlock them, just teach people HOW to use them. Scrap the Spring Trait changes entirely return traits entirely to how they used to be, and just add in better tutorial elements so that players are taught how to use the system.

On second thought, you can leave in the “re-trait anywhere” portion, and also the “five old points to one new point” change, those made things more convenient, but you should get your first five-point trait point at level 15, not at level 30, unlock the master and GM tiers at levels 40 and 60, and when a tier is unlocked, let me use the traits I want, rather than just the traits I’ve managed to unlock.

But in a broader sense, keep in mind that communication is a two way street. You have to not only listen, but also tell us what you’re planning to do, so we can comment on that as well before you implement it. Otherwise you’re just going to keep wasting thousands of manhours on systems nobody ever wanted.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This thread is very large and has a lot of great feedback and input within it. But because it’s so long, some participants may have missed a very informative post by Game Design Lead Jon Peters.

And I would point out that the post is from a month ago.

Plenty of us read it, and responded to it, and got no feedback, no response, no indication that anyone was reading anything we said, no updates, no decisions about forward direction…pretty much…nada.

There have been 10 pages of comments since Jon’s post. Many of those pages were direct responses. After no response, everyone went back to complaining about the traits some more. Because, as you may have heard, many people find them less than pleasurable. Some might even say unpleasant, inconvenient, mind bogglingly ill conceived, and quite possibly some large social experiment where our attempts to trait out a character are used in metrics to design better mousetraps.

At this point, I think everyone wants to know just a few simple answers.

1) Are you considering making traits account unlocked: Yes/No
2) Is the current trait-unlock modality going to stay, even if tasks change? Yes/No
3) Will you lower the costs of buying traits? Yes/No
4) Will you tell us if changes are coming or not? Yes/No

Just tell us what the thinking is. If no changes are coming to the way traits unlock, or the costs, then just tell us that. All any of us want is for you guys to tell us whether or not this system is going to change, and if so; how and when.

There are hundreds and hundreds of posts from users. There are thousands of views. Recycling everyone back to a month old post from a dev isn’t going to solve anything.

Having someone give us definitive answers as to the path forward…that would solve something.

Gaile Gray.6029:

snip
So as Jon asked, please keep your feedback coming with our thanks for your efforts to also make the game better! Please note that as Jon points out, changing systems or making adjustments takes time and careful review, but you are being heard and your input is valuable to us.

My thoughts:

1. Adept traits should be really easy for a solo level 36 to get. Like, every last one should be as easy and accessible as doing a skill point challenge. It’s not ok for a new player to get to level 36, look at their shiny new major trait slot, and realize the trait they want to put in it is locked behind something ridiculous like a level 52 group event. Maybe even move a bunch of the adept unlocks down into level 15-30 areas so people can have a better chance of having some traits already unlocked by the time they’re able start using them.

2. Traits in general should not require event completion, especially events that aren’t up very often and/or require a group. When a new player decides they want a trait, sees its unlock is in a certain area, and goes there, they shouldn’t have to wait around for 15-30 minutes hoping the relevant event spawns.

3. Traits also should not require personal story step completion, or if you insist on it at least pick some lower level steps. I did Clawr Island once, I’m not doing it again.

While I appreciate all the ideas generated here, I firmly believe that CORE needs of a character should not be locked behind anything. Nothing at all. If you want to lock extra, special grandmaster traits behind tougher content, well, whatever. But do not do this for any other traits. This whole design is BAD. Just BAD.

And after 6 months it’s no freaking wonder we’re just getting more angry about this. Coming in here like Jon did a MONTH ago and posting the slap in the face that he did, then ignoring this issue for another month… while we all consider playing other games or just giving up all together… that’s what we’ve gotten so far. It’s a crying shame and it makes VERY angry.

Every single day I come in here hoping to get some kind of reasonable response. Every single patch I actually hold out hope that this grossly incompetent error will be fixed. But NO. After SIX months. Srsly. Disgusted.

Gaile, while I appreciate you coming in after Jon posted his stuff and vanished, what he said was not generally well received. That is why your post is not getting good reception. Here is what I heard Jon say:

“Sorry, we weren’t paying attention to the thread we started and don’t care enough to read your suggestions now. I’m here now because we were badgered to come to this thread in the “Communicating with You” thread. Here, have a hamster wheel: crank out more suggestions to keep yourselves busy so you don’t complain.”

I will only be satisfied by 1 of two things:

1) a significant change for the better
2) a dev finally coming clean and telling us that we are kitten out of luck, live with it.

I believe the avoidance of this issue for so long followed by Jon’s hamster wheel and his vanishing are the dev version of #2. In a way I would like it if they said it; I would admire the honesty, unlike when Chris Whiteside basically called us stupid for misinterpreting the Manifesto after the devs pulled Ascended on us.

I also have not forgiven them for that. However, I managed to move on. With this trait thing, all of it is backing up in my craw.

This game feels more and more like an unrequited love.

I love GW2 and it keeps going its own way, expecting me to give up.

I’m kitten close to doing so.

Also, I am sorry I ‘yelled’ earlier. It is due to frustration caused by passion for GW2, being blunted by bad creative design decisions.

Gregori.5807:

Gaile, while I appreciate you coming in after Jon posted his stuff and vanished, what he said was not generally well received. That is why your post is not getting good reception. Here is what I heard Jon say:

“Sorry, we weren’t paying attention to the thread we started and don’t care enough to read your suggestions now. I’m here now because we were badgered to come to this thread in the “Communicating with You” thread. Here, have a hamster wheel: crank out more suggestions to keep yourselves busy so you don’t complain.”

I will only be satisfied by 1 of two things:

1) a significant change for the better
2) a dev finally coming clean and telling us that we are kitten out of luck, live with it.

I believe the avoidance of this issue for so long followed by Jon’s hamster wheel and his vanishing are the dev version of #2.
…

I would be happy with #1 but I’m afraid we’re only getting #2 (Jon’s post and now Gail’s are just a passive-aggressive way of saying #2).

wwwes.1398:

I mean, the real problem is that the system is intended to get users to slowly learn traits and the developers apparently think that’s how the game is actually working. But speaking from experience, what actually happens is that users look up the traits that they want, they buy them or unlock them (and only them), and they never ever experiment, because nobody is willing/able to stop and unlock or purchase traits in the middle of a dungeon or an event. I have three characters created post patch. I don’t even know what most of the traits do because there’s just no point.

I sympathize, because undoing this or making mass changes is probably a logistical nightmare. But PLEASE at least acknowledge and let us know you hear what we’re saying. Which is that whatever you think is happening in terms of playability just isn’t. Everyone looks up meta builds or asks what traits to use. Or worse, they are unaware of what to do and just take whatever they happen to get without any critical examination whatsoever.

This doesn’t lead to exploring your traits, it leads to never ever exploring your traits. On many occasions, I’ve actually just left the slot blank because I didn’t have enough traits unlocked in a line. That is absolutely stupid.

Oh, and as mentioned, even when you want to unlock one, sometimes it’s just broken. I put in a report saying that branded devourer queen is broken a week or two ago.

I’m quoting this for emphasis. Spot on.

I know this thread may seem daunting to catch up on but it’s worth the read. I and many others have been reading the posts since it started.
The entirety is filled with lists of broken/bugged events, traits inappropriate for levels, traits requiring groups or dungeons or WvW, etc.
There have even been individuals that did spreadsheets of the requirements both in gold/skillpont costs and levels/locations. Players did their ‘homework’ and cared enough to spend that kind of time on offering information and alternative solutions. Someone at Anet should do the same and recognize that most of the complaints have come from people that really care about this game, have spent their time offering solutions, and turned the other cheek when they were told ‘the thread is very large and unwieldy to read through’ (of course that was not a direct quote, sorry).
Anet has been very focused on the NPE lately. Therefore I would like to restate a few things that others have said.

• Re-playability: When a new player reaches 80 with their first character will they want to try out another profession? How willing is that person to go through all those unlocks again and will they find it even mildly fun or a chore?
• Diversification: Are the metrics showing what you hoped they would with this change? Are new players unlocking their traits, experimenting with builds, diversifying?
• Character Expansion Slots: Are you likely to sell more character expansion slots to the new players with this trait unlock system in place, “As Is”? Will the new player go through this with the five free slots and be willing to buy more slots to experiment even more?
• Problem Trait Unlocks: Are your metrics showing that players are more likely to spend gold/skillpoints on unlocking a specific trait or actually doing the activity required? If so that requirement may need tweaking.

Other than the re-playability and character slots, this took into account nothing for veteran players. The focus ‘seems’ to be on the NPE so with that in mind I thought I’d throw this out there.

Ohoni.6057:

And this is the problem with the current CDI system in a nutshell. You ask us questions, you take in feedback, and then you shoot off in a completely random direction like a dog after a squirrel, and don’t tell us where you’re headed until you get there. If you’d have told us "well, we’re thinking of forcing you to do all sorts of events to unlock traits, we all would have said “NOOOOOOOOOO!” and then you wouldn’t have wasted all that time on a system that nobody wants.

Solving this is not a matter of picking out a few bad apples and making a few tiny tweaks, the whole kittened bundle is rotten.

You identified a good problem, some players had a hard time adjusting to the trait system early in the game. You came to the wrong solution, push it waaaaay back in the progression so that the early levels are super boring. The better solution? Give players more explicit training in them, lead them through the process of selecting traits, explain why some are traits are better than others, what each is good for.

Don’t lock traits behind events, preventing players from even trying them out without going all over the place to unlock them, just teach people HOW to use them. Scrap the spring Trait changes entirely return traits entirely to how they used to be, and just add in better tutorial elements so that players are taught how to use the system.

On second thought, you can leave in the “re-trait anywhere” portion, and also the “five old points to one new point” change, that made things more convenient, but you should get your first five-point trait point at level 15, not at level 30, unlock the master and GM tiers at levels 40 and 60, and when a tier is unlocked, let me use the traits I want, rather than just the traits I’ve managed to unlock.

But in a broader sense, keep in mind that communication is a two way street. You have to not only listen, but also tell us what you’re planning to do, so we can comment on that as well before you implement it. Otherwise you’re just going to keep wasting thousands of manhours on systems nobody ever wanted.

Really I just want to see this post at the top of every page in this thread.

Lazuli.2098:

Tachenon.5270:

It’s like you’re asking us to offer suggestions about place settings and silverware while there’s a dead skunk in the middle of the dinner table.

What’s the most offensive trait unlock location? I find the trait system revamp in its entirety to be offensive. I don’t think it makes the game better in any way, shape, or form. I think it made the game worse. I think it takes all the fun out of trying different builds, which makes it something we have to get through to get to the ‘fun stuff’. I don’t think any tweaking or adjusting will help.

Please: just put it back the way it was.

LOL.

I totally agree. If Anet doesn’t revert the trait system it doesn’t really matter to me what superficial stuff they do since I’ll never create another new character in this game.

actually no, i don’t want to go back to the old system, i want the unlock part gone and that’s all there is.
why they changed it is because it makes the game closer to GW1, they just gone to far with the changes.