Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah, the previous system was decently functional . . . but it had its glaring issues (paying for trait resets)

Paying for trait resets isn’t a glaring issue is it? How expensive was it?

The big problem, more important than the money cost, with trait reset was the need to speak to an npc to reset them, so you couldn’t change them when you wanted

This. In fact because it was inconvenient to reset traits is the reason I started a second and third memsmer, and because I enjoyed leveling with the old system.

runeblade.7514:

I think that the trait system is more fine than god-awful as people make it out to be.

It is annoying for power-levelers but it is fun for those that play the game.

One thing that I feel ANet needs to add in is a Quest text or a notification whenever you are high enough level to find a trait. Most traits are level-based anyways.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide#Trait_unlock_methods_sorted_by_level_range

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point? Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway. A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits. There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

maddoctor.2738:

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah, the previous system was decently functional . . . but it had its glaring issues (paying for trait resets)

Paying for trait resets isn’t a glaring issue is it? How expensive was it?

The big problem, more important than the money cost, with trait reset was the need to speak to an npc to reset them, so you couldn’t change them when you wanted

So an easy solution would have been to pay to reset without making that visit.

Why would you have to pay anything? you didnt before all this mess started, what exactly warrants removing player ability to experiment with the build they like?.

runeblade.7514:

I think that the trait system is more fine than god-awful as people make it out to be.

It is annoying for power-levelers but it is fun for those that play the game.

One thing that I feel ANet needs to add in is a Quest text or a notification whenever you are high enough level to find a trait. Most traits are level-based anyways.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide#Trait_unlock_methods_sorted_by_level_range

I really wish this were true, but it just isn’t. I have a ranger with world completion, and still not even all of the traits for my specific build, let alone others. This is not limited to power levellers.

Moreover, the trait changes hurt build experimentation during the levelling process, which power levellers don’t care about.

Apolo.5942:

Why would you have to pay anything? you didnt before all this mess started, what exactly warrants removing player ability to experiment with the build they like?.

I agree, but for arguments sake, paying the fee so that you don’t have to visit npc to reset traits.

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

Apolo.5942:

Why would you have to pay anything? you didnt before all this mess started, what exactly warrants removing player ability to experiment with the build they like?.

I find myself experimenting more with trait unlocks than without it.

If you want to experiment with all the traits, you can go to PvP. They have majority of everything unlocked. You don’t need to fight players, there is a pit where you can fight NPC.

Apolo.5942:

Why would you have to pay anything? you didnt before all this mess started, what exactly warrants removing player ability to experiment with the build they like?.

It actually did cost a small fee to reset traits before April.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I promise that you’re not being snubbed (Tachenon, you made me both smile and wince there, with your definition of the term). Please know this thread is serving a good purpose and that is is offering the dev team valuable information. The fact is, though, there’s simply nothing new to say on the subject right now.

We know that you’d like to have some info on this subject. But until there’s something of substance to say, devs wouldn’t post in the thread due both to their generally busy schedules and to our practice of talking about matters of this sort only when we’re able to provide something of substance, within a meaningful timeframe.

Having said all that, your input is extremely valuable, and that’s why it was requested back in April. We reached out to you, and you provided a good deal of insight, and of good value, too! With subsequent changes to the game, your input shifted to address current concerns. That’s very meaningful to those team members following this thread and we thank you.

We’ve said it before, but giving details about for a suggested change is better than saying “I don’t like it.” If you can say why, and give a proposed fix, that’s very useful to the team. You are not in any way obliged to do this, you know that and I’m agreeing. I’m just making the suggestion to put the most value on your time in posting and the devs in reading.

Thanks.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

runeblade.7514:

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

But having to BUY each individual trait is very costly in gold and skill-points. Also, how is a NEW player supposed to know they can buy them let alone buy all their traits to be able to experiment with builds?

This trait system along with the NPE goes against one of the major selling points for GW2: Play as you want. To get traits now you must either buy them(if you have the SP and Gold) or you must “hunt” the traits by doing something you don’t want to.

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

1) they are saying why are there traits you cannot even look at in the UI, but you can get them. Its likely you will have to return to these areas, when you could have got it the first time. The UI should always show you where all the traits are.

2) the point is, uplevels cannot compete due to a lack of traits. This was always a possibility, but the swing is now 20 levels different. Not only that, but its unlikely they even have good traits.

3)Buying important traits from a vendor, people forget that they didnt always have infinite skill points, that largely happens after level 80, or when specifically farming (like champ farm) Someone actually leveling doesnt have 10-20 extra skill points to throw around. you really would have to choose between traits, and skills, and then between traits and other traits. Most people just wont bother.

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Did what you quoted indicate that that was my opinion? No, it’s just useless to be able to get traits if one can’t see or use them – only verterans would know how to get them and their value – so my proposal would be to be able to obtain and see traits as soon as one is able to use them.

runeblade.7514:

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

True, but thanks to no traits until level 30 and then only the Major Traits, as far as I remember, means that uplevels are bait in wvw and maybe pvp – they are severly disadvantaged – if you don’t believe me try it – get the latest gear and try wvw with only one or 2 traits.

runeblade.7514:

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

This point wasn’t about whether or not to buy traits but that an uplevel might need certain traits but can’t get these at below level 30, 60 or 80. Again; try to survive in wvw without condi removal.

Edit: Stuff

I think that the way it is not really great at all. As I am an altholic have levelled up chars to 80 under this and its not the right way. Many have suggested alternatives but , have you looked at the China release there are over 3.8 million playing. We in the West are below this number so, Anet (my opinion ) is trying to combine both east and west so that there is one way for updates overall.

I do hope they see the light and have the west play our way. So they can surley have a split for traits.

The report on the China players are on Reddit so we are the minority overall .They also said the new system was for new players .Yes it was but not new players here again my opinion (so a play with words) the new ones are China.

Surley they must realise that they are holding back in the hope that this dies down and it runs its course. I have spent a hellava lot of money in this game and hope they come to there senses

Galphar.3901:

runeblade.7514:

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

But having to BUY each individual trait is very costly in gold and skill-points. Also, how is a NEW player supposed to know they can buy them let alone buy all their traits to be able to experiment with builds?

This trait system along with the NPE goes against one of the major selling points for GW2: Play as you want. To get traits now you must either buy them(if you have the SP and Gold) or you must “hunt” the traits by doing something you don’t want to.

• 10 silver for EACH adept trait, 50 silver for EACH master trait. It barely reaches 1 gold. Notice I emphasize EACH because you wrote “each.”
• A new player should know they can buy them alone because it said so on the telescope icon next to each trait. If they want to experiment all of the trait, they can go to Heart of the mist to test it out.
• I don’t see what is wrong with getting a choice of buying a trait vs. hunting them down, nor do I see how it takes away with play how you want.

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

runeblade.7514:

Galphar.3901:

runeblade.7514:

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

But having to BUY each individual trait is very costly in gold and skill-points. Also, how is a NEW player supposed to know they can buy them let alone buy all their traits to be able to experiment with builds?

This trait system along with the NPE goes against one of the major selling points for GW2: Play as you want. To get traits now you must either buy them(if you have the SP and Gold) or you must “hunt” the traits by doing something you don’t want to.

• 10 silver for EACH adept trait, 50 silver for EACH master trait. It barely reaches 1 gold. Notice I emphasize EACH because you wrote “each.”
• A new player should know they can buy them alone because it said so on the telescope icon next to each trait. If they want to experiment all of the trait, they can go to Heart of the mist to test it out.
• I don’t see what is wrong with getting a choice of buying a trait vs. hunting them down, nor do I see how it takes away with play how you want.

Somehow I think that you are missing the point.

In order to #experiment# with traits (you know, the thing that you tell us you do more often now) you need to buy more than one trait.

The cost for multiple traits in gold, and (more importantly) skill points is excessive in many peoples opinion.

Most people on this thread seem to think that the old system was just fine and dandy.

I’m thinking that you just checked in to stir up stuff.

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

Indeed, let’s simplify everything. Just give everyone the same traits.

Problem solved.

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

1) they are saying why are there traits you cannot even look at in the UI, but you can get them. Its likely you will have to return to these areas, when you could have got it the first time. The UI should always show you where all the traits are.

2) the point is, uplevels cannot compete due to a lack of traits. This was always a possibility, but the swing is now 20 levels different. Not only that, but its unlikely they even have good traits.

3)Buying important traits from a vendor, people forget that they didnt always have infinite skill points, that largely happens after level 80, or when specifically farming (like champ farm) Someone actually leveling doesnt have 10-20 extra skill points to throw around. you really would have to choose between traits, and skills, and then between traits and other traits. Most people just wont bother.

1. I don’t think he is saying that.
2. Shocker, high levels can complete content easier than lower levels.
3. 3 SP for an adept trait, 5 SP for a master trait. You don’t need to spend 160 trait points for everything.

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

1) they are saying why are there traits you cannot even look at in the UI, but you can get them. Its likely you will have to return to these areas, when you could have got it the first time. The UI should always show you where all the traits are.

2) the point is, uplevels cannot compete due to a lack of traits. This was always a possibility, but the swing is now 20 levels different. Not only that, but its unlikely they even have good traits.

3)Buying important traits from a vendor, people forget that they didnt always have infinite skill points, that largely happens after level 80, or when specifically farming (like champ farm) Someone actually leveling doesnt have 10-20 extra skill points to throw around. you really would have to choose between traits, and skills, and then between traits and other traits. Most people just wont bother.

1. I don’t think he is saying that.
2. Shocker, high levels can complete content easier than lower levels.
3. 3 SP for an adept trait, 5 SP for a master trait. You don’t need to spend 160 trait points for everything.

Well, did you hunt traits with all of those toons in your sig? I just don’t have that kind of time between work, family and such.

I agree that you don’t need all traits. I just leveled a new Necro, and just bought what I thought best. Rather inexpensive, but not encouraging me to experiment.

Just ran through a few hours of Mad King Lab, and all seems well for PvE.

Bellizare.5816:

runeblade.7514:

Galphar.3901:

runeblade.7514:

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

But having to BUY each individual trait is very costly in gold and skill-points. Also, how is a NEW player supposed to know they can buy them let alone buy all their traits to be able to experiment with builds?

This trait system along with the NPE goes against one of the major selling points for GW2: Play as you want. To get traits now you must either buy them(if you have the SP and Gold) or you must “hunt” the traits by doing something you don’t want to.

• 10 silver for EACH adept trait, 50 silver for EACH master trait. It barely reaches 1 gold. Notice I emphasize EACH because you wrote “each.”
• A new player should know they can buy them alone because it said so on the telescope icon next to each trait. If they want to experiment all of the trait, they can go to Heart of the mist to test it out.
• I don’t see what is wrong with getting a choice of buying a trait vs. hunting them down, nor do I see how it takes away with play how you want.

Somehow I think that you are missing the point.

In order to #experiment# with traits (you know, the thing that you tell us you do more often now) you need to buy more than one trait.

The cost for multiple traits in gold, and (more importantly) skill points is excessive in many peoples opinion.

Most people on this thread seem to think that the old system was just fine and dandy.

I’m thinking that you just checked in to stir up stuff.

1. If you did all the trait quest up to level 36 for your first major trait slot, you should get 7 adept traits, not counting WvW traits. That is more than 1 trait.
2. It is excessive if you plan to buy all 65 traits, which people keep stressing 43g + 360 SP just to make a point. But, Not really that much when you plan to get 7 traits for a single build. If you want to experiment, you can always head to the heart of the mist to experiment if it is worth buying.
3. I think that the old system was fine and dandy until I actually tried the new system.

Bellizare.5816:

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

1) they are saying why are there traits you cannot even look at in the UI, but you can get them. Its likely you will have to return to these areas, when you could have got it the first time. The UI should always show you where all the traits are.

2) the point is, uplevels cannot compete due to a lack of traits. This was always a possibility, but the swing is now 20 levels different. Not only that, but its unlikely they even have good traits.

3)Buying important traits from a vendor, people forget that they didnt always have infinite skill points, that largely happens after level 80, or when specifically farming (like champ farm) Someone actually leveling doesnt have 10-20 extra skill points to throw around. you really would have to choose between traits, and skills, and then between traits and other traits. Most people just wont bother.

1. I don’t think he is saying that.
2. Shocker, high levels can complete content easier than lower levels.
3. 3 SP for an adept trait, 5 SP for a master trait. You don’t need to spend 160 trait points for everything.

Well, did you hunt traits with all of those toons in your sig? I just don’t have that kind of time between work, family and such.

I agree that you don’t need all traits. I just leveled a new Necro, and just bought what I thought best. Rather inexpensive, but not encouraging me to experiment.

Just ran through a few hours of Mad King Lab, and all seems well for PvE.

I hunted traits with only 4 characters so far. Most of them were created pre-patch some of the others were created for PvP/WvW.

• Besides that, with or without the new trait system, leveling in the PvE world takes a lot of time. So your comment about playing with my toons and balancing my life holds no relevance at all.

runeblade.7514:

I hunted traits with only 4 characters so far. Most of them were created pre-patch some of the others were created for PvP/WvW.

Ok, so you had all classes before the April patch – did you ever experiment with builds or did you always use cookie cutter builds?

Jana.6831:

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Did what you quoted indicate that that was my opinion? No, it’s just useless to be able to get traits if one can’t see or use them – only verterans would know how to get them and their value – so my proposal would be to be able to obtain and see traits as soon as one is able to use them.

runeblade.7514:

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

True, but thanks to no traits until level 30 and then only the Major Traits, as far as I remember, means that uplevels are bait in wvw and maybe pvp – they are severly disadvantaged – if you don’t believe me try it – get the latest gear and try wvw with only one or 2 traits.

runeblade.7514:

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

This point wasn’t about whether or not to buy traits but that an uplevel might need certain traits but can’t get these at below level 30, 60 or 80. Again; try to survive in wvw without condi removal.

Edit: Stuff

I) The easiest choice would be to buff these traits to level 36. Now that I think about it, there can be a notification saying that you can use this trait at level 30, 60 80 instead. Really, I don’t find a problem with this that says the old system should come back. I don’t see why it is such a big problem to you either.
II) Shocker, higher levels have an advantage over lower levels.
III) Since this is a discussion about traits, I can make an argument by showing all the skills with condi removal.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

its not statistics at play. Its logic.
how much different combinations you can try is directly related to how many ingredients you have. If you have 3 different things limiting your ingredients your ability to experiment is a lot less.

Now you talk about getting overwelmed, but while i can believe you being overwelmed causes you not to experiment, i dont know why you would think its common, or that its better for everyone else to go at your specific pace.

you do realize, you have the option to do it one at a time in the other system right? you realize thats what most people who didnt want to read all of them at once do. They pick one, try it out, try a new one when they get bored of the old one.

I recently leveled 2 80 NPE characters after having left the game back in 2013.

The first character I leveled I was fairly methodical while unlocking traits. I followed my personal story and completed each map it took me to. I did no dungeons and no wvw. At L80 I had a total 11 traits unlocked (2 I bought not knowing what I was doing and I couldnt even use them after I bought them). So really I unlocked 9, no grandmaster traits unlocked.

The second character I leveled I played how I wanted. I’d log in to do stuff with a guildmate. We’d do jumping puzzles for fun. I’d run to his area of the map to do hearts with him. I completed 1 map (a starter map), did my personal story up to battle for claw island, did 2 dungeons, did some wvw, did halloween stuff, dabbled a little in crafting, and showed my guildmate a few world bosses. In short, I just played to have fun. She had a total of 5 traits unlocked at L80. All adept. No master or grandmaster traits unlocked. I barely had enough skill points to get skills let only pay for traits.

Runeblade, I think you may be a plant or a white knight or just like to be contrarian. Cause the trait unlock system is fubar.

Also, my first NPE character is at 98% map complete. She has about 60% of her traits unlocked. I just unlocked the karka queen trait for her this morning and thought… why? It took us less than 5 mins to beat down the karka queen and the only reason I was there was to unlock my trait. It sure didn’t feel like I earned it but at the same time that trait is not worth 3 gold + 20 skill points. I’d say that trait is worth 10 maybe 20 silver at most and 0 skill points.

DeceiverX.8361:

All of this is public information and has been posted about in the past as well. If they can’t handle criticism, it’s only hurting them more. I’m directly addressing problems which have been admitted and confirmed. And if they should choose to keep operating their business in this manner, then they as a company will fail.

I’d only expect to face consequences for mentioning this if I pointed to specific names/relationships at ANet. I’m merely pointing out the fact that this kind of behavior is not secret and by no means has been for quite some time, and that they are actively being criticized by investors and customers because of it.

Maybe you’re right. I just could swear I’ve seen stuff like it deleted before. Maybe the lack of specificity is enough to keep it within their rules.

I mean, either way, I agree with the main point you were making. It’s just there’s criticism and then there’s speculation, and talking about the stuff in question could very easily get into pure speculation and/or get specific. So I guess that’s mainly what I’m thinking of.

./shrug

America.9437:

I just unlocked the karka queen trait for her this morning and thought… why? It took us less than 5 mins to beat down the karka queen and the only reason I was there was to unlock my trait. It sure didn’t feel like I earned it but at the same time that trait is not worth 3 gold + 20 skill points. I’d say that trait is worth 10 maybe 20 silver at most and 0 skill points.

Right, as some of us have mentioned, the choices for unlocks aren’t even consistently challenging or interesting, but many of them are rather based on long event chains or big bosses like karka (which are entirely subject – in difficulty – to whether players decide they are worth farming). Imagine if KQ was a boss that nobody did. Then it’d suddenly be super inconvenient and annoying to acquire the trait.

runeblade.7514:

Bellizare.5816:

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

1) they are saying why are there traits you cannot even look at in the UI, but you can get them. Its likely you will have to return to these areas, when you could have got it the first time. The UI should always show you where all the traits are.

2) the point is, uplevels cannot compete due to a lack of traits. This was always a possibility, but the swing is now 20 levels different. Not only that, but its unlikely they even have good traits.

3)Buying important traits from a vendor, people forget that they didnt always have infinite skill points, that largely happens after level 80, or when specifically farming (like champ farm) Someone actually leveling doesnt have 10-20 extra skill points to throw around. you really would have to choose between traits, and skills, and then between traits and other traits. Most people just wont bother.

1. I don’t think he is saying that.
2. Shocker, high levels can complete content easier than lower levels.
3. 3 SP for an adept trait, 5 SP for a master trait. You don’t need to spend 160 trait points for everything.

Well, did you hunt traits with all of those toons in your sig? I just don’t have that kind of time between work, family and such.

I agree that you don’t need all traits. I just leveled a new Necro, and just bought what I thought best. Rather inexpensive, but not encouraging me to experiment.

Just ran through a few hours of Mad King Lab, and all seems well for PvE.

I hunted traits with only 4 characters so far. Most of them were created pre-patch some of the others were created for PvP/WvW.

• Besides that, with or without the new trait system, leveling in the PvE world takes a lot of time. So your comment about playing with my toons and balancing my life holds no relevance at all.

Well, leveling in PvE does take time as you said. I play more than casually and have 3 level 80’s in a years time. Two pre-patch. I admit that I deleted a couple of toons at 50-60 after the patch because I got bored

TBH, you do have a lotta toons in your sig. Even playing since launch, that’s a heck of a time sink.

Labjax.2465:

America.9437:

I just unlocked the karka queen trait for her this morning and thought… why? It took us less than 5 mins to beat down the karka queen and the only reason I was there was to unlock my trait. It sure didn’t feel like I earned it but at the same time that trait is not worth 3 gold + 20 skill points. I’d say that trait is worth 10 maybe 20 silver at most and 0 skill points.

Right, as some of us have mentioned, the choices for unlocks aren’t even consistently challenging or interesting, but many of them are rather based on long event chains or big bosses like karka (which are entirely subject – in difficulty – to whether players decide they are worth farming). Imagine if KQ was a boss that nobody did. Then it’d suddenly be super inconvenient and annoying to acquire the trait.

No doubt. I’ll admit that I was carried during that fight. It was my first time and I’m not sure I’ll ever go back because I’m not really sure why I’d wanna be there at all. As you mentioned it took me a long time to get the Shark trait in the Hinterlands. Not because it was a tough fight but because the kittener would never spawn while I was in the area. I think I spent more silver way-pointing to the hinterlands trying to unlock that trait than just paying for it from a trainer. And the funny thing is that when it did spawn, I was the only one fighting it and that icon came up asking me if I wanted to change to a more populated map. At that point I felt like the game was intentionally screwing with me.

America.9437:

Runeblade, I think you may be a plant or a white knight or just like to be contrarian. Cause the trait unlock system is fubar.

Disgusting.

I don’t have the same opinion as you, which suddenly gives you a reason to mudslinging.

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

its not statistics at play. Its logic.

No, it requires statistic not logic. Here:

you are a rare case.

Show me a Statistic. How would you know that I am a rare case? If I am a rare case, then you have a survey out there saying I am a rare case.

Otherwise, I can say that you guys are a rare case because logic.

how much different combinations you can try is directly related to how many ingredients you have. If you have 3 different things limiting your ingredients your ability to experiment is a lot less.

Too much utilities just make me want to go to the guides and have them figure it out for me.

Now you talk about getting overwelmed, but while i can believe you being overwelmed causes you not to experiment, i dont know why you would think its common, or that its better for everyone else to go at your specific pace.

You don’t have to go at my specific pace, you can always buy traits from the vendor for a cheap cost.

If you want to test it all at the same time, but too poor to do so, then you can go to the Heart of the mist.

you do realize, you have the option to do it one at a time in the other system right? you realize thats what most people who didnt want to read all of them at once do. They pick one, try it out, try a new one when they get bored of the old one.

I find it easier to get a guide and have them choose for me.

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

its not statistics at play. Its logic.

No, it requires statistic not logic. Here:

you are a rare case.

Show me a Statistic. How would you know that I am a rare case? If I am a rare case, then you have a survey out there saying I am a rare case.

Otherwise, I can say that you guys are a rare case because logic.

how much different combinations you can try is directly related to how many ingredients you have. If you have 3 different things limiting your ingredients your ability to experiment is a lot less.

Too much utilities just make me want to go to the guides and have them figure it out for me.

Now you talk about getting overwelmed, but while i can believe you being overwelmed causes you not to experiment, i dont know why you would think its common, or that its better for everyone else to go at your specific pace.

You don’t have to go at my specific pace, you can always buy traits from the vendor for a cheap cost.

If you want to test it all at the same time, but too poor to do so, then you can go to the Heart of the mist.

you do realize, you have the option to do it one at a time in the other system right? you realize thats what most people who didnt want to read all of them at once do. They pick one, try it out, try a new one when they get bored of the old one.

I find it easier to get a guide and have them choose for me.

experimenting with 1 or 2 traits, is less than expermenting with 30 traits.

ok, you like it, i cant argue that, i will just say the system is poorly designed and too rigid to work for a variety of playstyles.

even for what it is, it is poorly designed in many ways.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

But how can you experiment with them if you only have like, 5 of them unlocked? Or did you grind for months to either buy them all or hunt them down?

It was quite inexpensive before to reset one’s traits, what 2s44c ? Which I did every time when going into to do WvW long before the AP chests began to “reward” Badges of Honor, while I was getting my Gift of Battle for a legendary. Did that 3 nights a week, for a couple of months, big whoop!

But, I did find myself experimenting more way back when with different builds. Not now. I pick a build, after looking online, when levelling a new (or reconstituted) toon (I’ve deleted many level 80’s) and just go after those traits I need (90% have been bought w/money & reluctantly SP’s) However, the SP’s are more important to me for utility skills. Not to mention the fact that some classes are a b**** to level without having traits, especially early on, i.e. mesmer. Used to love leveling (hence, the 15 char), but not so much now, even with Anet’s little “level reward gold star”. Not worth the hassle, and gems bought for new slots.

My point is that the previous system was working just fine, was understandable (even to a senior citizen/grandma such as myself who had never played a MMO in her life). The new system is horrible, but I realize they’ll never seriously look at this thread after 7months.

runeblade.7514:

1. If you did all the trait quest up to level 36 for your first major trait slot, you should get 7 adept traits, not counting WvW traits. That is more than 1 trait.
2. It is excessive if you plan to buy all 65 traits, which people keep stressing 43g + 360 SP just to make a point. But, Not really that much when you plan to get 7 traits for a single build. If you want to experiment, you can always head to the heart of the mist to experiment if it is worth buying.
3. I think that the old system was fine and dandy until I actually tried the new system.

1. Effort to reward on some of the Adept traits are nonsense. Some of them actually require 100%-ing an entire zone. Few of them are unnecessarily level-gated (Complete TA Story mode for a II trait). It would make more sense if simply exploring unlocked all of your traits by the time you get to level 80, but that’s simply not true.
2. True freedom to experiment with builds comes with having all 65 traits. You can limit yourself to only the traits you need, but that only gives you a limited set of builds to play with and not much you can do to the build to tweak it. Experimenting in PvP is limited – you get your core traits unlocked only in sPvP, and PvP balance is completely different from PvE.
3. The old system wasn’t broken. Frankly, the only thing I see with the new system is it encourages/forces players to explore more and hunt for their traits similar to GW1 skill capturing. That’s fine – less explored content should have incentives to do them, but not by tying them to a core feature of the game.

Build experimentation should be accessible in all game modes (PvE, WvW and sPvP). Right now, it’s only truly available in sPvP; the trait unlock requirements for PvE and WvW are ridiculously painful limiting build experimentation (facts are facts, you can’t experiment with only 2-3 builds with very few variations to them, a proper experiment considers all possible builds with all possible variations to them – requiring all traits), and the purchase cost to avoid hunting for traits is insane (the gold is manageable, but the skill points simply aren’t – players will spend most of the skill points they get leveling up towards utility skills and elites – which is another source of experimentation and have little left over for traits. It’s personally taken me a while of leveling up after 80 and skill point scrolls to get up to 334 and I’ve been extremely frugal about spending my skill points).

This is the system I would be fine with:
- Sensible unlock requirements. Or no unlock requirements.*
- No skill point cost for trait guides, reduce total cost of traits to 20g.

*Find a different way to re-vitalize content that isn’t done frequently.

Friend of mine I’ve been playing games with for a long time just hit 80 today as a new player.

He had no idea how to unlock the new traits and had no idea that he could buy them. He also had no idea that they costed skill points and had subsequently spent every skill point he had unlocking skills instead. So now he’s 80 with no traits.

Turns out he’s pretty upset he now has to grind out a ton of content to experiment with builds and play a functional character. I’m not sure if he’s going to be returning to the game.

It’s barely functional for veteran players. It’s not at all healthy for new ones… which defeats the entire purpose of the attempt, no?

I remember playing Guild Wars 1 and feeling like I never had enough skill points to get all the skills I wanted to mess around with. Somehow, this current state of affairs, as described by others, feels familiar. I had 7 or 8 level 80s before the trait patch hit so I didn’t worry too much about the changes. Even so, I guess I would say that the old system of trait acquisition was better in terms of freedom than the skill acquisition system of GW1. That’s, of course, my opinion. I didn’t personally benefit much from the skill hunt system in GW1 because of my play style and felt that it really slowed me down in terms of experimenting. I kind of agree with the motivation behind the trait changes in terms of making trait acquisition more active/feel more important/mimic GW1 skill hunting in spirit and that they can improve on what they’ve done. I just hope whatever they choose to do from here is better than what GW1 offered.

Just to add my $.02 to this one, though it has been said before I wanted to put it in as ANet has said they are looking for player feedback.

I liked the old system, I tinker with my Mesmer a lot as far as traits, as for the new ones that were added since I stopped playing and now have come back, haven’t unlocked them, probably won’t, not sure it’s worth the investment. As for how the new system causes me to interact with my new characters, I would describe it as frustrating. I’ve never been one to have a lot of extra gold, so spending what I do have on extra traits is unlikely. And going out to try and farm them from events is not something I’m particularly interested in, more work isn’t what I’m looking for, I want more fun.

Honestly, thinking about what to unlock, sitting staring at my trait window debating on whether or not to spend the gold, deciding not to (cause I’m saving it for legendary things), and then starting to figure out where to go to farm the trait, has caused me to just log off the new character and back onto one of my 80’s more than a few times. I would say that if a new system causes people to stop playing characters it is a disaster. I went from enjoying leveling new characters to being frustrated by it to the point of not doing it.

I enjoy tinkering with new trait builds and seeing how they worked in actual dungeons, or WvW (Let’s be honest you can almost not trait for a large portion of open world PvE content). Now I just worry about wasting the gold, or my time grinding out the new traits. Why waste my time grinding out a trait I may abandon in a day or two when I can spend that time grinding out map completion, at least the map completion gets me closer to that gift of exploration (man map completion makes my brain hurt :P).

I’ll agree that not having to pay for the trait resets is very nice, I enjoy that greatly, but I would gladly go back to paying for resets if it meant having all the traits available on my lower level characters.

As for the new system of locking story behind leveling, and the other changes I’ve encountered with the NPE system, not a fan either. It again has caused me to shelve my low level characters. I would say overall the system has failed, in my case. Again, my $.02.

Ill repost what I posted on reddit a while back. I think this is ultimatly what ppl want. Its probably been suggesteed before but hey. Ive modified for other game modes also.

Ultimately you can unlock traits from a bunch of different things. Each time you complete one of these things you get to choose a trait one time (so no repeats of events etc). Simplify it to:

• Any meta event chain, JP or “special” event (special hidden events and mini dungeons etc) in zones 20-50 give you a unlocked Adept trait (no repeats). Also for WvW and PvP players there is a common (25%) chance to get an unlock PVE adept trait book from tower+ bosses or PvP track chests.
• Any meta event chain or JP or “special” event (special hidden events and mini dungeons etc) in zones 50-70 give you a unlocked Master trait (no repeats). Also for WvW and PvP players there is a uncommon (10%) chance to get a unlock PVE master trait book from tower+ bosses or PvP track chests.
• Any meta event chain or JP or “special” event (special hidden events and mini dungeons etc) in zones 70-80 give you a unlocked Grandmaster trait (no repeats). Also for WvW and PvP players there is a uncommon (10%) chance to get a unlock PVE Grandmaster trait book from keep bosses or PvP end track chests.

I can see this might require a bit of coding but ultimately I think this is what people would want. Make it simple to understand and people would have no problems with this system. Traits remain unlocked from doing things in the world but you are never locked into doing something specific although you do need to progress somewhat (ie you cant just unlock everything running around queensdale).

AntiBodies.8342:

snip

No, actually traits are too important to be locked behind RNG – the problem we have now is basically RNG as you can’t tell whether the event will be up, whether enough people will be around, if the event will succeed.

Not what I want

I actually don’t know what I want – umm maybe: I would have wanted something like personal story to unlock traits and have all greens blues for free and have them at level 20 max.

Edit: Confused the trait colours

While I too appreciate the response, after much complaining, I do have to wonder where this actually ranks on the Dev-meter.

Its akin to going to a doctor, having them grab your arm in a way that hurts and after screaming for 10 minutes that it hurts the doctor turns to you and asks if it hurts and if there is anything he can do to make it stop hurting. You then proceed to tell them about 10 different ways to ease the pain including the option of just stopping the action, and after another 40 minutes of pain the doctor asks you to recap your suggestions because he could barely hear you over your screaming cries of pain.

All while still holding your arm and not letting you know if or when he might change his course of action or acknowledging what of your suggestions he even heard in the first place.

This is what this thread is like, except in this analogy we’ve also seen other patients getting heard and treated by other doctors with no problems in communication.

So, is there any way to get a confirmation that any of this will actually be addressed in any of the next 3 update cycles or will this be something that lasts through the end of the year with no movement? Surely one of those 2 options can be spoken to. Either there is something in the chamber (even if its a small tweak) or nothing is going to happen until the new year. Which is it?

phys.7689:

you do realize, you have the option to do it one at a time in the other system right? you realize thats what most people who didnt want to read all of them at once do. They pick one, try it out, try a new one when they get bored of the old one.

I wanted to quote this bit for emphasis. It is a point overlooked all to often in discussions touching on this subject.

In the original system those who felt overwhelmed by too many choices could opt to focus on one, or a select few, at a time for experimentation. Meanwhile those who preferred to compare and contrast all of the traits for their class could readily do so. The trait changes took away, or at least more heavily gated, the preference of the second group without adding anything for the first.

There is no upside to these changes. They add nothing that did not already exist as an option for those who like the changes.

Dont get me wrong, the free respec is nice but is not inherently dependent on the other changes.

I don’t think we even needed free respec of traits; more rather, we did need the change on the fly aspect where you don’t have to visit a trainer, as that was a hastle. Personally, paying a few silver to respec would be far better than free re-traits and would be FAR FAR superior to what we now have.

I have now 2 level 80s since after Apr 15, and both have fewer than 10 traits each.

What really gets me is the stance from ANet that the April 15th change was to encourage experimentation with traits, when it is obvious to anyone with a brain that that is not the case. It is a time/gold sink ONLY. In not one way did this new system change anything for the better, OTHER THAN the change on the fly trait respec option. Every single other aspect of this made it worse, harder, more confusing, more expensive, and more out of reach of new players.

I have personally decided to just delete the new toons I made, as they’re simply boring cookie cutter builds, and not fun to play.

Just be a man and rollback this trait system to way it was.

jucca.8219:

Just be a man and rollback this trait system to way it was.

Never going to happen. We are stuck with this.

On the plus side, my fully traited toons actually will be Gods Walking Among Mere Mortals. I saw evidence of this in the Mad King’s Lab. So many "80"s that were kind of down or dead all of the time.

Rashy.4165:

This is the system I would be fine with:
- Sensible unlock requirements. Or no unlock requirements.*

Done.

ANet already put in sensible unlock requirements. You just need to log in and see for yourself.

And yet we’re still looking at requirements for traits sitting at level 80. And often these traits are what make entire builds function.

White knight harder.

I don’t remember the exact number but I had a look before to determine which of the trait unlocks you are objectively better off buying rather than unlocking. I determined that around half were absolutely no question, you are guaranteed to be better off buying it, and about a quarter were borderline, only being worth unlocking if you were already going to do the content regardless.